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Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.
Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/06 22:52:23
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Prices... I think the infantry is in a decent spot.. maybe look at the Repentia for a little drop.
I never feel like I am losing ground for buying an Immolator, but that is almost exclusively with the flamer-top, the multi-melta top needs some love. Rhinos just feel like Immolators without guns... so, not sure how they stand, but maybe they shed a couple of points? Repressors are probably not going anywhere points-wise, maybe a tick or two up a little more (but dropping the other Transports price a hair will accomplish the same goal).
Exorcist needs some love. Desperately wanting a reach around or something. The durability feels about right for the points, but that gun is not in the least scary atop it.
Penitent Engine just got a lot better, so maybe the points now are okayish, but it may tick down a few points because it is still very glass-cannon. I honestly expect it to stay the same.
Flamers need to come down to something stupid like 2 points... the extra potential hits are nothing compared to the range restrictions it places. I think over the game it'll do about as much work as a Stormbolter. Melta are okayish, but only ever good because Dominions can deliver them, I never feel like I am strictly worse off for paying 120 points for 4 melta-dominions. Lots of people think they're hurting, so they may go down a handful of points.
I don't think we're going to see massive drops in points like some codices (Craftworlds, and CA Grey Knights are supposed to be), but there shouldn't be a lot of upward trends either.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?
People lost their gak over Berserker Marines for them being usable once again, not being broken. You mixed up enthusiasm with worry there.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Marmatag wrote: That storm bolter stratagem is absolute cheese.
Will be providing feedback that it is far too powerful and absolutely must be toned down. Holy crap.
Given that the army lacks long range firepower and much in the way of heavy weapons in general, and that they dont have plasma guns, lascannons, etc, that hardly seems busted, particularly given that otherwise the Storm bolter as a squad special weapon is rather underwhelming. There's also only one unit that can take enough storm bolters to really make someone care, and thats Dominions, a nontroop T3 infantry unit.
I would wait and see how the rest of the list looks before freaking out about it.
Is it underwhelming for the points though?
Marines pay 18 points for a Vet with a Storm Bolter, and that's the most efficient source to do it. Sisters keep the relevant parts of the Marine (the BS3+ and 3+) for significantly cheaper. They're a total of 60 points currently, and that's compared to Marines for 90.
So for a measly 1CP a turn, having a 60 point unit throw out 10-20 shots (and it'll be the latter most likely because they get a bonus move) of AP-2 D2 is absolutely disgusting, even without rerolls.
In a direct comparison like that, sure. However, the army doesn't otherwise have access to Razorbacks, squad carried plasma guns, heavy support units sporting quad lascannons, no super fast infantry units or deep strike, etc.
A T3 unit of sisters getting a strong bonus stratagem to otherwise lackluster weapons options, that have to be within 12" for optimal effect and can only be used once a turn in matched play, isnt going to terrify me just yet. Any opponent facing such a threat will quickly identify it, and it doesn't take much to mitigate or neutralize the one or two units in any army that will be able to really make good use of this stratagem.
If thats the most powerful thing this army will bring to the table, I don't think we'll see SoB breaking the meta much. Basically you're paying 1 CP to change the Storm Bolter into a Plasma Gun for a turn in terms of damage output against most targets. Powerful in certain circumstances, but within the greater context of the codex of the army and meta, probably not particularly astounding.
Maybe I'm wrong, that's entirely possible, but within the context of sisters as we know them, what we have seen thus far, and the rest of the 8E meta, I'm not worried about it breaking the game.
Also saying they lack high range firepower is absolutely silly when Exorcists exist and we both KNOW they're gonna get a buff or point decrease.
Exorcists are literally the one thing in the entire army beyond Heavy Bolters able to reach out past 24", and the only one with big hard hitting ranged attacks aside from infantry carried meltaguns, and we don't know exactly how they'll end up. More to the point, they can't be expected to do everything all the time in every list.
1. Storm Bolters aren't lackluster. Arguably they're the only good Bolt weapon people try and take.
On things like Rhinos and the occasional squad leader? Yeah. As a squad upgrade special weapon for an infantry unit to rely on for its flexibility and major hitting power? Not so much.
2. The availability of Razorbacks is moot because you're only talking about the Assault Cannon variant. Otherwise, you don't take the other options (which the Immolator has three of, anyway). That's dishonest of you. Honestly, you should even be ashamed you tried to make that a point.
The point was that their equivalents are generally much more shorter ranged (particularly for optimal effectiveness) and/or ar less flexibly armed. The Immolator weapons options just arent that thrilling next to the RB, even setting points effectiveness aside.
3. Okay, they don't have Plasma Guns. It isn't like Marines get a cheap saturation of them; just because the option exists doesn't mean the option pops up a lot. That's why when people talk about nerfing Plasma Guns, all the complaints are related to the Scion platforms.
Sure, Marines dont get to take 50 plasma guns in a list. However, they have do have access to them, Sisters do not, and PG's are by far the most effective and flexible special weapon option in 8E in general. Sisters have no such access. Allowing one squad a turn to basically treat Storm Bolters as Plasma Guns, given the lack of such firepower otherwise, may not be the most horrific thing in the world.
4. What has a Quad Lascannon? The 500 point Spartan? Lol k
Land Raiders, Predators, Devastators?
5. Uh the unit of discussion is fast?
Dominions? They get a Scout move, but are not otherwise particularly fast.
Seripham are fast?
They are, but they also dont have access to Storm Bolters IIRC, and their special weapons options have a 6" range (and an optimal 3" range for inferno pistols).
We also don't know if they're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem like everyone and their mother has at this point?
Possible, but not something previewed or indicated as yet.
Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.
I forgot about Repressors, I havent see one in person in years. That would make for a more effective platform to be sure. That said, for a squad of dominions and a repressor, we're talking about 150-160pts if the squad is barebones. They'll kill half a squad of marines or half a vehicle, and then be an immediate priority target for everything else they just moved into range of.
That said, I also doubt anyone writing rules anywhere is considering the Repressor, GW seems to insist on pretending FW units dont exist when writing rules
6. T3 isn't a disadvantage because of damage output for the price. Units pay a lot for the additional Toughness because GW doesn't price durability correctly.
I can either have a Marine with T4 and a Bolter, or a Dominion with T3 and a Storm Bolter. Seeing as dead units don't fight back, the latter is a superior choice.
If all we're doing is looking at those two in a vacuum 12" apart, sure, the Sisters win every time, no argument from me. Again however, within the broader context of the two armies, I'm not super worried. Only one unit a turn can make use of that stratagem, the units will have to be kitted to make use of it, you'll know which units are capable of making use of it, the units have to get within assault range to optimally function, and that makes concentrating on, avoiding or mitigating that relatively easy.
Im also ok with the marines getting a price break.
7. This is only a preview. We actually don't know what else the army is bringing, sure.
I want you to think about the escalation with the last few codices though and get back to me on what we can reasonably expect though.
Honestly, given that this is going to be another CA book for Sisters, with their codex history through the editions, and against the backdrop of the larger 8E metagame, i expect we will see an overall mediocre army with one or two savage Soup combos with a crutch or two (maybe blessed bolts) keeping monosisters viable enough to not be total garbage. I don't expect them to upend the metagame.
We'll see how it shakes out, but im not ready to freak out about Blessed Bolts just yet. Its possible im wrong, but I just dont feel its all that bad with the context available.
8. They're still cheap at 140 points to supplement anything moving forward. They don't need to do ALL the work. This isn't a camping army like Guard.
The issue is that their other units dont really replicate that particular kind of fire, multishot AP reducung multidamage S7/8 firepower that does the lifting in many top meta lists today. More to the point, as they currently stand they're pretty garbage, and GW has failed to fix garbage units more than once before
The closest Sisters can get to Exorcist type firepower outside of it is Meltaguns. Nobody is making ultrascary armies built around meltaguns to my knowledge.
Wew lad that needed a spoiler.
1. If you don't think people love their Storm Bolters you must've missed Company Vets, Deathwatch Vets, Sterngaurd, and Chosen (Combi-Bolters are the same thing really). Those are the only weapons you really take with them because it keeps them cheaper on top of doubling their firepower. Any other special weapons you basically defer to a different army. Heavy Weapons are of course a different topic.
2. Less thrilling weapons options. So you have the TL Lascannon, the Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun, a single Multi-Melta, the TL Heavy Bolter, TL Assault Cannon, and the TL Heavy Flamer.
The Immolator has three of those options already (and I'm pretty sure that Multi-Melta is TL but I can't remember), and then you have basically the Assault Cannon only ever being used. LasBacks are very niche.
Is it really less exciting when only 1 option is actually good anyway and therefore you only took that option?
3. It isn't that Plasma Guns are more flexible and more that the other options are just garbage. That's part of why people were upset with Plasma Guns: they forgot that even if you nerfed them you wouldn't take Melta still.
Assuming proper price cuts that won't matter. They'd just miss on one weapon. At least Sisters can accumulate them for much cheaper though thanks to the cheaper base cost.
4. Quad Lascannon is an actual weapon for the Spartan However, if you want to talk about Lascannons I'm all ears. CSM and their Loyalist Scum brethren certainly aren't getting them on the cheap. That's why it's the main niche of the LasBack after all. If you think Predators are a good source of Lascannons you're definitely lying to yourself.
It's almost like you're complaining Sisters aren't able to camp as an army.
5. Dominions ARE fast though. You know how much of a difference that move makes for an army trying to be in the opponent's face? A lot. Their transport moves with a free move, and then you move again. Two movement phases is pretty strong.
If anything but actual Infiltration isn't fast to you, you have over the top standards.
6. You asked for fast units in the army that were infantry, and they fit the qualification. If they weren't fast they would be terrible instead of mediocre.
7. You can't deny that Codices throw around a Strategem like that whenever they want though. I'm basically willing to bet money it'll happen.
8. It isn't like Repressors aren't durable for the price. They absolutely deserved the price hike they got in the last Chapter Approved.
9. It isn't a matter of it just one unit using it a turn. The issue is that it's the best unit to do it, as other Sisters units can specialize in other areas. Dominions are simply THE unit for Storm Bolter spam though. Now if we get similar Strategems with Melta and Flamer weapons, there might be competition for how to load out Dominions.
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+.
This is TERRIBLE compared to the old system. The old system was 5 AoFs on a 2+ per game, didn't have to do anything special to get them. Even WITH the ebon chalice CT AND getting to use multiple in a turn it's still worse. If Celestine doesn't keep her guaranteed AoF, they can basically pull the system out of the book for anyone who brings less than 100 infantry.
The additional characters are going to be pointless except for infantry spam lists. Their aura ranges will be too small to reach Dominions or Seraphim so you'll be stuck with Retributors and basic battle sisters only if you want to actually be able to use AoFs.
So this system pushes SoB players into take 120+ infantry and conga-lining them together around a character or two so that they can actually benefit from Vessels of the Emperor. It's a far more obnoxious(but ultimately less effective) version of the typical Guilleman bunker list. The problem is the only weapon SoB can actually use in a bunker list is a heavy bolter. Even the stupid stormbolter stratagem and shooting twice won't give them anywhere near the firepower a similar Guard/Eldar/or Marine list would have.
If you choose to still do a mech list, you can basically pull the pages detailing AoF out of the book because basing any strategy around MAYBE rolling a 5+ is suicide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/06 23:41:23
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
I would like to point out that with the new AoF system, there is a legitimate chance they get worse with the Codex. They'd have to have A LOT of buffs and price drops to make up for gutting the thing that made Sisters a good index army in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/06 23:38:25
9. It isn't a matter of it just one unit using it a turn. The issue is that it's the best unit to do it, as other Sisters units can specialize in other areas. Dominions are simply THE unit for Storm Bolter spam though. Now if we get similar Strategems with Melta and Flamer weapons, there might be competition for how to load out Dominions.
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
9: Yeah, there might a competition.... but it's not with Storm Bolters, it's with Meltaguns. Dominions run Melta, because an army built on having a ton of light infantry killing weapons does not go far; especially in a meta filled with super heavy walkers that never degrade. Ask the Grey Knights how the whole "we don't have any AT guns" is working out for them. Dominions with Storm Bolters were pretty cool when the edition dropped; and then the rule of 3 dropped; and it's now basically only Dominions with Meltaguns. Sisters antitank is Dominions and Seraphim. The latter are a turn-2 threat, though.
10: Huh? Did I imagine a period of time spanning 2 editions where our army were our only antiaircraft source was literally "pray"?
11: They're basically a Vindicator with reduced strength and increased range. This is not a recipe for greatness. Toughness is irrelevant if your gun is too weak to warrant your removal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you think Predators are a good source of Lascannons you're definitely lying to yourself.
Why would Predators not be a good source of Lascannons?
They're a good source of lascannons, but they're not a good source of lascannons. That said, my friend swears by his Chaos Quadlas Predator, so they can't be that bad. I generally preferred the autocannon, but it's been falling short with more T8 out there.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 00:01:20
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
The predator is a great platform for lascannons, especially if you run 3 for killshot. Havocs aren't bad platforms either. I usually bring about 4-8 lascannons to a game without breaking the bank and they usually do well.
Frankly given the amount of time it's been, I think if any army deserves time to be OP it's sisters. But without many ways to reach out and touch units across the board, I doubt this army will be OP. Half the deployments will hurt them heavily. Plus the army wants to be in 12" but not combat so it's always going to fight on a fine line.
ERJAK wrote: Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+
That's a no-doubter, plate clearing home run of a nerf batting if true. ~2-3 activations of faith per game, hoping against the odds that the unit you need it on manages to get it going.
Still faith in the index army was pretty much limited to moving/up-gunning seraphim, patching up celestine, and occasionally shooting twice with heavy bolters. I guess it's time to write off the seraphim charge and see what else in the army can pick up the slack.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?
People lost their gak over Berserker Marines for them being usable once again, not being broken. You mixed up enthusiasm with worry there.
No. People were claiming they would destroy armies in one turn and fell warhound titans in single combat.
ERJAK wrote: Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+
That's a no-doubter, plate clearing home run of a nerf batting if true. ~2-3 activations of faith per game, hoping against the odds that the unit you need it on manages to get it going.
Still faith in the index army was pretty much limited to moving/up-gunning seraphim, patching up celestine, and occasionally shooting twice with heavy bolters. I guess it's time to write off the seraphim charge and see what else in the army can pick up the slack.
I'm seeing Seraphim taking on a different role. Right now the kind of overlap with Dominions as a rush-forward scalpel unit that can more-or-less reliably remove a targeted threat. Dominions will likely keep that role, unless something radically changes with their scout movement rule. They don't currently rely on anything else to achieve that. Seraphim I see a bit of the designer's intention there when you look at Burning Descent, which is obviously targeted for them. A squad of 10 Seraphim with 2 pairs of hand flamers dropping onto the battlefield to strategically wipe a softer unit off of an objective, or worse... pop onto said objective while eliminating a unit trying to sneak up on it. That is a WHOLE lot of firepower hitting a unit that likely won't be able to weather it very well. Currently, the hand flamers aren't worth the fuss even with Burning Descent, so it'd likely be 10 Sisters with 2 bolt pistols each, for a whopping 110 points that can come in and literally steal a victory point from your opponent (either by scoring one, or denying one).
I'm also looking at this from the prism of Acceptable Losses being in play, where simply wiping each other out is not exactly a path to victory. You can wipe me out in 3-4 turns, but then you only have 2-3 turns to score points after I was controlling the board for the whole time I was on the table. Horde armies got a huge boost... and that's all Sisters are: a near-hoard army with a better selection of arms and armor. Mobile horde armies got a massive boost, and Seraphim and Dominions can be mobile while also being a bit cheap.
I'm still broken up about the Faith system. They said they wanted the Faith system to be improved... but if what was previewed and rumored match up.. it doesn't sound like they landed the mark there. But I can still see some massive strengths. Fix Celestians to become our Close Combat unit, again, get them with a Canoness with the relic sword. Pass The Passion, use Vessel of the Emperor's Will... toss in a Priest, troll relentlessly, especially as Bloody Rose. If the goal is to get attention, that + Dominions rolling around with meltaguns should divert enough of it away that you can score points early and often.
Edit: mafs are hard!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 01:29:45
9. It isn't a matter of it just one unit using it a turn. The issue is that it's the best unit to do it, as other Sisters units can specialize in other areas. Dominions are simply THE unit for Storm Bolter spam though. Now if we get similar Strategems with Melta and Flamer weapons, there might be competition for how to load out Dominions.
10. Sisters have always been upper mid-tier at worst though. They're simply the worst army ever for collecting though. Once these plastic kits come out you'll see them showing up a LOT more in tournaments, as they're already not terrible as an index army. They'll only get better with the codex.
11. Exorcists aren't great but they aren't terrible. I'm willing to even bet they'll get a silly fire-twice clause like everyone else got besides Hammerheads (which was definitely off).
9: Yeah, there might a competition.... but it's not with Storm Bolters, it's with Meltaguns. Dominions run Melta, because an army built on having a ton of light infantry killing weapons does not go far; especially in a meta filled with super heavy walkers that never degrade. Ask the Grey Knights how the whole "we don't have any AT guns" is working out for them. Dominions with Storm Bolters were pretty cool when the edition dropped; and then the rule of 3 dropped; and it's now basically only Dominions with Meltaguns. Sisters antitank is Dominions and Seraphim. The latter are a turn-2 threat, though.
10: Huh? Did I imagine a period of time spanning 2 editions where our army were our only antiaircraft source was literally "pray"?
11: They're basically a Vindicator with reduced strength and increased range. This is not a recipe for greatness. Toughness is irrelevant if your gun is too weak to warrant your removal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you think Predators are a good source of Lascannons you're definitely lying to yourself.
Why would Predators not be a good source of Lascannons?
They're a good source of lascannons, but they're not a good source of lascannons. That said, my friend swears by his Chaos Quadlas Predator, so they can't be that bad. I generally preferred the autocannon, but it's been falling short with more T8 out there.
1. Grey Knights also don't have as good a Storm Bolter Strategem.
I also say that this Strategem is busted enough that Dominions will only ever be ran with Storm Bolters. Regular Battle Sisters can carry the Melta Guns. I also made mention that there will indeed be competition if Flamer and Melta weapons get special Strategems too.
2. The only aircraft that posed a threat was Heldrakes. Even the Flying Croissants of Doom were just good at their best.
- The stratagem is good. It's also one unit and a handful of shots. It isn't like a block of 40 cultists with storm bolters.
- Using them as a loyal 32 is cool, but you're going to get 3 faith points tops like that.
Lets...play...with the codex first, maybe?
I agree, but I do think it's because it is beta that a discussion on something like this is good. Depending on where the point pricing ends up for all the other units, this one little combo really might end up being a concern. We've already had people saying CP for SoB is easy to come across, but now others are saying 1 CP for SB to act as Plasma guns is too big of an opportunity cost (which I don't think anyone can say it is).
Calling for nerfs on incomplete information (we don't even know their points or other stratagems yet) is a terrible way to provide good feedback.
We can all agree that it seems strong as first glance, but the rhetoric needs to get toned down.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
Or when people lost their shirt over Khorne Berserkers?
People lost their gak over Berserker Marines for them being usable once again, not being broken. You mixed up enthusiasm with worry there.
No. People were claiming they would destroy armies in one turn and fell warhound titans in single combat.
ERJAK wrote: Bob of War of Sigmar confirmed that Faith points are generated once at the beginning of the game, which means that most non-infantry spam lists are going to have 6-7, the roll is also a single D6 with the low being a 3+ and the high being 5+
That's a no-doubter, plate clearing home run of a nerf batting if true. ~2-3 activations of faith per game, hoping against the odds that the unit you need it on manages to get it going.
Still faith in the index army was pretty much limited to moving/up-gunning seraphim, patching up celestine, and occasionally shooting twice with heavy bolters. I guess it's time to write off the seraphim charge and see what else in the army can pick up the slack.
Ebon Chalice is clearly the best Sorority
Blessed Bolts is really good for 1 cp Vessel of the Emperors Will is nuts; basically shoot twice on your whole army
...but the worst preview, by far?
Penitence Engines are better fighters than Ork Walkers in melee.
What?
Fight twice
Free 5++
Rerolling to-hit rolls
-
It’s ok, this is codex powercreep 100%
Oh wait, it’s the newest Imperial book
Xenos; we’ll try to balance you, but Imperial, "it’s fine"
ffs
Oh, and never mind any "but x y z weakness" is covered entirely by being able to soup with everything.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Yeah, it's absolutely insane. Definitely should be around 2cp or toned down to +1 pen.
I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
We're already seeing it ITT. The new AoF look extremely powerful, but it's not good enough because it's not as reliable as orders.
It crushes 2W infantry. It crushes infantry that have a feel no pain.
It is 80% as effective against T7, 3+ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective as against T7, 4++ as overcharged plasma.
It is equally as effective against T6, 3++ as overcharged plasma.
It is 17% more effective against T4, 6+++ than regular storm bolters. (40% more if you include a 6+ save)
It is 33% more effective against T4, 5+++ than regular storm bolters. (60% more if you include a 6+ save).
Yeah, it's absolutely insane. Definitely should be around 2cp or toned down to +1 pen.
I'm looking forward to this experiment exposing the Sisters playerbase for being what those of who've been here for years have always known: by far the most entitled playerbase of any faction. Nothing short of being game breakingly overpowered will be acceptable and the next year is going to be nothing but "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
We're already seeing it ITT. The new AoF look extremely powerful, but it's not good enough because it's not as reliable as orders.
The hyperbole from naysayers is almost as high as the zeal from the faithful. I mean, in a meta chocked full of fully regenerating 30 man cultist or ork squads, giant death contraptions that can level hundreds of points a turn while weathering thousands of points of fire before showing wear... we're seriously going to take a detour to fuss about AT MOST 20 STR 4 AP -2 D2 shots WITHIN 12"? It absolutely is powerful, but the most it is going to affect EVER is 5 models in 1 turn, and those 5 models would have otherwise been toting melta and blowing up tanks. Now they're clearing chaff/elite infantry (which elite infantry is a MASSIVE hole in the Sister's arsenal). I haven't seen many Primaris or Terminator lists dotting the upper fringes of the competitive landscape, so I'm pretty sure efficiently killing them isn't going to wildly swing the meta. Those storm bolters aren't killing Knights, and they're only marginally better at killing garbage models than they would normally be. I guess there's a lot of Death Guard players here, clutching their army-wide disgustingly resilient, god forbid someone makes them have to reconsider waddling into the middle of the battlefield and controlling everything with their unshiftable mobs.
The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.
It's a good effect for a small unit.
And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.
It's a good effect for a small unit.
And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.
Yes you do, you have every other Imperial codex to draw units from.
The way I see it, it isn't exactly Machine Spirit Resurgent.
It's a good effect for a small unit.
And this is absolutely not going to replace melta-dominions. We have no other tank-breaking option; especially with the change to act of faith. The answer is Doms carry melta or lose.
Yes you do, you have every other Imperial codex to draw units from.
Let's walk this back right quick...
Sororitas have one of the best melta units in the game, possibly the best. Dominions are ridiculously strong, and they can do all of their business currently from the safety of a Repressor.
Why on earth, with the rule of 3, would be DEMOTE them to Stormbolters, then disembark and expose them, and then spend CP to get a little muscle for clearly models that clearly don't matter to the meta?
With flamers, and troops that can take 3 Stormbolters for LESS points/model, and cheep efficient sources of bolters + power armor... and jump troops that can drop in and deliver up to 40 bolt pistol shots in 12"... why would you give up one of the best armor crushers in the game? Allies aside, demoting Dominions to anything without melta just feels like a HORRIBLE misplay.
fe40k wrote: Ebon Chalice is clearly the best Sorority
Blessed Bolts is really good for 1 cp Vessel of the Emperors Will is nuts; basically shoot twice on your whole army
...but the worst preview, by far?
Penitence Engines are better fighters than Ork Walkers in melee.
What?
Fight twice
Free 5++
Rerolling to-hit rolls
-
It’s ok, this is codex powercreep 100%
Oh wait, it’s the newest Imperial book
Xenos; we’ll try to balance you, but Imperial, "it’s fine"
ffs
Oh, and never mind any "but x y z weakness" is covered entirely by being able to soup with everything.
BlaxicanX wrote: "b-but marines have this so Sisters should too!"
Right now it looks more like "b-but my armies doesn't have this, why sisters do" tho. It's all over this thread.
But hey, continue making nice posts like this one, you're sure to get a listening ear from anyone.
I sit here with my cigar swirling a glass of 2018 chateau sister tears du salt. Mmm this shall be a fine vintage.
Love how people are math hammering away so hard over a single freaking unit for a max of 5 freaking s4 guns. Oh these are juicy grapes.
All the while assuming:
A)sisters points dont move
B) sisters squad composition doesnt change
There was a time where BSS squads were min 10
There was a time dominions could only take 2 special weapons per 5 models.
With the emphasis being on model count, i could see sisters squads going that route again. Why not? GW will want to sell models and what better way than to make us buy more boxes of sisters to fill out those min requirements?
Thos in itself is speculation but if it turned out that way, it effectively doubles the cost of those oh so mean and nasty dominion squads. Suddenly theyre 120pts. Im sure even then, the whiners still wouldnt be happy.
Personally i hate the storm bolter stratagem. Why? Because i hate storm bolters and wont use them unless i absolutely have to because im ocd with wysiwyg and have run out of other models for my sisters brigade.
I hate that it applies only to storm bolters.
Would much rather preferred that it applied to all bolt weapons. it could have been 'increase the ap value of bolt weapons in the squad by -1ap and if the unit being fired at has the chaos keyword increase the damage by 1.'
But no. Stupid storm bolters.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.
Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.
its likely they will stay the same or go down - so one ot TWO options which odily enough are NOT the same.
"Sigh" - so you don't know any of the answers but claimed you did - well done.
We DONT KNOW how exactly the new AOF system works, WE DON:T KNOW what if any the Dominions have, do they have the same weapons choices, but hey you just keep making assumptions.
You don't even know what the CA Marine pts are now do you???
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 13:40:42
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Sim-Life wrote:If you don't want uninformed, kneejerk reactions don't come to DakkaThe Internet.
Fixed that one for you
Vaktathi wrote:
Being able to rush Repressors up the field like a Rhino but not lose the firepower of the embarked squad makes even basic squads fast to engage?
The army is plenty fast.
I forgot about Repressors, I havent see one in person in years. That would make for a more effective platform to be sure. That said, for a squad of dominions and a repressor, we're talking about 150-160pts if the squad is barebones. They'll kill half a squad of marines or half a vehicle, and then be an immediate priority target for everything else they just moved into range of.
That said, I also doubt anyone writing rules anywhere is considering the Repressor, GW seems to insist on pretending FW units dont exist when writing rules
I worry about Repressors too, and would suspect that FW wont update their rules any time soon. But that said, miracles happen and it isnt like CA hasnt provided updates to FW points/rules before.
I need to finish painting my semi-kitbashed one, before the apocalypse happens an GW release a full plastic kit along with the new SoBs.
Sometimes a duck is a duck. Like when people voiced their concerns over Castellans which have dominated the meta as well as rendering the Crusader almost superfluous.
I feel like a handful of T3 models are the apples to the very large and supple oranges of a T8 behemoth.
Kinda like how Conscripts were NEVER a problem and Infantry still aren't a problem?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're really delusional if you think they're gonna go up in price. That's happened how many times with units since codices have come out?
Orks come to mind and you didn't answer any of my questions - do you know the answers?
The answer is things will either stay the same or go down. Anything going up in price has always been the exception, not the rule, and not being touched in the last Chapter Approved means we can say they'll stay the same price.
Now then, go ahead and actually answer my question in how many units went up in price when a codex was released. I'll be waiting.
its likely they will stay the same or go down - so one ot TWO options which odily enough are NOT the same.
"Sigh" - so you don't know any of the answers but claimed you did - well done.
We DONT KNOW how exactly the new AOF system works, WE DON:T KNOW what if any the Dominions have, do they have the same weapons choices, but hey you just keep making assumptions.
You don't even know what the CA Marine pts are now do you???
Well the leaks are coming in, so.. yeah. Chaos Marines apparently stayed the same price so we can expect Tactical Marines to do the same.
Also I did see Melta Guns somewhere go down to 14. So there's that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Thanks, I'll update that above to save confusion!
