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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/10 20:36:54
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Xenomancers wrote:A.T. wrote:-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase
Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.
Some of those are pretty cool but what is up with the limitations? Once per turn seems reasonable.
Seems like the limited nature of the points - the roll for going off should just be removed. Just have them good off automatically or on a 2+ like before. +1 to hit is REALLY good to be able to have on demand for any unit you want. Auto morale pass could be powerful if not for the fact that sisters aren't really taking huge squads anyways. The mortal wound save is actually REALLY good but is also situational.
This seems pretty weak. To go from 1 on demand ability per turn that was really good like - move again - shoot again...Now it's just a bunch of micro abilities that aren't nearly as powerful. I think the idea behind the changes is decent BUT the abilities reliability is REALLY weak. It's needs to be more reliable if the powers are going to be this weak. Then maybe a stratagem that gives you an automatic activation of any one of these acts for 2 CP...or something like that.
The other problem with them is they only work on Infantry units, IIRC. So it's not even +1 to-hit on any unit you want, like the IG stratagem.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/10 21:19:17
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There are several problems that I think I wrote in a different forum but can't remember.
Currently the Faith System runs on 3 features. Faith Points, the Faith Roll, and the limit of 1 of each per turn.
If you remove Faith Points, then you will use every faith ability every turn, from turn 1 to turn 7. There would be no reason not to. You would always want to give your army as many chances to be better as possible. It'll be an annoying headache to keep track of which units have which bonuses, but you'll do it because that's what gives you an edge.
If you remove the Faith Roll then the Acts of Faith lose their flavor. They become a thing that you will always do and always get off and they will become perfectly predictable. This could be a good thing for some, but in the end, they become a stratagem that cost a different resource, which is boring and redundant.
If you remove the limit of 1 per turn, then your entire army will undergo acts of faith in turn 1 and 2 for the alpha strike potential and then you won't have any faith points for the rest of the game, making the ability bland.
So I can see why GW included each of the restrictions. The trouble is that in their current incarnation they're just... meh.
Half of the Acts have a 1/3rd chance to fail and the rest have a 1/2 chance or worse to fail, and they still cost the faith points. Honestly, Faith Points aren't even that big of an issue. With some of the Orders, you can get quite a lot of Faith Points and end up actually having LOTS leftover by the end of the game. Plus, they're another resource you have to track, which slows the game down.
Going back a step, anyway, spending a limited resource on a *chance* to get something just doesn't feel good. You have Canticles, Orders, and other things that other factions get that don't have a chance to fail (or at least not as bad of a chance) and that also affect THE ENTIRE ARMY, or at least multiple units instead of just 1. Having only 1 unit benefit from an act of faith is not what I'd call 'scaling up with the army'.
Many of the acts of faith are also underwhelming. Spirit of the Martyr is similar to what Apothecaries or Techpriests get. Hand of the Emperor is a far cry from a double-move for many units and it having a 1/2 chance to fail means you can't properly strategize your movement phase. Passing a morale test automatically is next to pointless in this edition. Probably the best acts of faith are getting +1 to hit half of the time or getting a 1/3rd chance to get a 1/2 chance to save against a mortal wound from smite. The best is fighting twice with a unit, particularly Repentia (actually... only Repentia, any other unit this at of faith is worthless on). But it's got a 2/3rd chance to fail base, which is abysmal and could lose you the game if it doesn't go off after a critical charge. Your opponent can also counter it by interrupting in between fights and neutering the unit that you used it on, making it even worse.
Honestly, with many of the acts of faith, I feel that you could run the entire army without using them and the outcome would still be much the same, such is the combination of their weakness, their abyssmal chances, and the limitation of using only one of each and having limited faith points.
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/10 22:12:01
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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drbored wrote:
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
That what it seems like to me, too. It almost feels like you'd just ignore the whole system largely just to save time on the book keeping. But we'll see how it plays on the actual table.
Now that I've seen the "beta codex" explanation text it seems like this isn't really a beta codex to test stuff out, but more of a "here's some stuff we cobbled together to shorten the wait till the actual codex comes out"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 01:37:40
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nekooni wrote:drbored wrote:
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
That what it seems like to me, too. It almost feels like you'd just ignore the whole system largely just to save time on the book keeping. But we'll see how it plays on the actual table.
Now that I've seen the "beta codex" explanation text it seems like this isn't really a beta codex to test stuff out, but more of a "here's some stuff we cobbled together to shorten the wait till the actual codex comes out"
I can understand that feeling, but when the CA comes out, we REALLY need to give GW our feedback. This is the time to let them know they need to change stuff, or else we'll be stuck with this same system when the full codex comes out and then we'll be stuck with THAT for another 20+ years.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 02:06:49
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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I'd leave their effect level where they are, but allow them to be used multiple times per turn. I'm not particularly concerned about frontloading the effects.
IIRC, the old-old system worked where you got faith back on the destruction of faithful units; and the test was naturally difficult but modified by unit casualties. That wouldn't be bad, gaining points from the death of units [which is currently a trait] isn't a bad feature in general, because it spreads out point generation and helps turn the tide if your losing. Making the test easier with fallen models weakens the powers, since they wind up granting less effect.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 02:11:07
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 07:50:21
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Pious Palatine
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I'd leave their effect level where they are, but allow them to be used multiple times per turn. I'm not particularly concerned about frontloading the effects.
IIRC, the old-old system worked where you got faith back on the destruction of faithful units; and the test was naturally difficult but modified by unit casualties. That wouldn't be bad, gaining points from the death of units [which is currently a trait] isn't a bad feature in general, because it spreads out point generation and helps turn the tide if your losing. Making the test easier with fallen models weakens the powers, since they wind up granting less effect.
This is also a solid solution.
The system is super weird, tbh. Like someone(maybe dbored himself?) on B&C said, it feels like they built the entire faith point system around the OLD acts of faith and then someone was like "Vessels of the Emperor?' And then everyone cheered before going"...maybe that's a bit too much...I know! We'll just make the Acts of Faith really weak!" And then they all left for lunch patting each other on the back...not realizing that they had left the entire system built around much stronger abilities. Automatically Appended Next Post: drbored wrote:There are several problems that I think I wrote in a different forum but can't remember.
Currently the Faith System runs on 3 features. Faith Points, the Faith Roll, and the limit of 1 of each per turn.
If you remove Faith Points, then you will use every faith ability every turn, from turn 1 to turn 7. There would be no reason not to. You would always want to give your army as many chances to be better as possible. It'll be an annoying headache to keep track of which units have which bonuses, but you'll do it because that's what gives you an edge.
If you remove the Faith Roll then the Acts of Faith lose their flavor. They become a thing that you will always do and always get off and they will become perfectly predictable. This could be a good thing for some, but in the end, they become a stratagem that cost a different resource, which is boring and redundant.
If you remove the limit of 1 per turn, then your entire army will undergo acts of faith in turn 1 and 2 for the alpha strike potential and then you won't have any faith points for the rest of the game, making the ability bland.
So I can see why GW included each of the restrictions. The trouble is that in their current incarnation they're just... meh.
Half of the Acts have a 1/3rd chance to fail and the rest have a 1/2 chance or worse to fail, and they still cost the faith points. Honestly, Faith Points aren't even that big of an issue. With some of the Orders, you can get quite a lot of Faith Points and end up actually having LOTS leftover by the end of the game. Plus, they're another resource you have to track, which slows the game down.
Going back a step, anyway, spending a limited resource on a *chance* to get something just doesn't feel good. You have Canticles, Orders, and other things that other factions get that don't have a chance to fail (or at least not as bad of a chance) and that also affect THE ENTIRE ARMY, or at least multiple units instead of just 1. Having only 1 unit benefit from an act of faith is not what I'd call 'scaling up with the army'.
Many of the acts of faith are also underwhelming. Spirit of the Martyr is similar to what Apothecaries or Techpriests get. Hand of the Emperor is a far cry from a double-move for many units and it having a 1/2 chance to fail means you can't properly strategize your movement phase. Passing a morale test automatically is next to pointless in this edition. Probably the best acts of faith are getting +1 to hit half of the time or getting a 1/3rd chance to get a 1/2 chance to save against a mortal wound from smite. The best is fighting twice with a unit, particularly Repentia (actually... only Repentia, any other unit this at of faith is worthless on). But it's got a 2/3rd chance to fail base, which is abysmal and could lose you the game if it doesn't go off after a critical charge. Your opponent can also counter it by interrupting in between fights and neutering the unit that you used it on, making it even worse.
Honestly, with many of the acts of faith, I feel that you could run the entire army without using them and the outcome would still be much the same, such is the combination of their weakness, their abyssmal chances, and the limitation of using only one of each and having limited faith points.
The system just does not inspire fun gameplay in my opinion.
(
When you lay out those restrictions it becomes VERY clear that the system was not built around the Acts of Faith that actually shipped. If the acts were very powerful abilities, let's say... +1 to hit and +1 to wound or +6" of movement, or fighting twice but NOT on a 5+ for no real reason, then the system would make sense. As it stands now...You're spending 3CP per turn to (assuming a Canoness) get an 8% better version of the same Aura ability that space marines can buy for 3CP FOR THE WHOLE GAME.
Yeah, Vessels of the emperor, in an absolute best case usage scenario, is worse than just being a Chapter master. Which is a stratagem I don't think anyone has ever used outside of beer and pretzels time. Automatically Appended Next Post: Unit1126PLL wrote: Xenomancers wrote:A.T. wrote:-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase
Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.
Some of those are pretty cool but what is up with the limitations? Once per turn seems reasonable.
Seems like the limited nature of the points - the roll for going off should just be removed. Just have them good off automatically or on a 2+ like before. +1 to hit is REALLY good to be able to have on demand for any unit you want. Auto morale pass could be powerful if not for the fact that sisters aren't really taking huge squads anyways. The mortal wound save is actually REALLY good but is also situational.
This seems pretty weak. To go from 1 on demand ability per turn that was really good like - move again - shoot again...Now it's just a bunch of micro abilities that aren't nearly as powerful. I think the idea behind the changes is decent BUT the abilities reliability is REALLY weak. It's needs to be more reliable if the powers are going to be this weak. Then maybe a stratagem that gives you an automatic activation of any one of these acts for 2 CP...or something like that.
The other problem with them is they only work on Infantry units, IIRC. So it's not even +1 to-hit on any unit you want, like the IG stratagem.
If you spend 3CP on Vessels, the 6" range act will spread to vehicles.
HOWEVER, the acts are so weak I don't understand why you couldn't just use them on the vehicles anyway. They don't even need to help generate faith points, just let them 'benefit'(for lack of a more accurate word) from Faith Points. Automatically Appended Next Post: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I mean, they're not terrible.
Spirit of the Martyr isn't particularly awesome. It's only better than Divine Guidance if you're down to 1 or 2 models.
Aegis of the Emperor is cool. I think it's the only counter to smite-spam armies, which is really neat. It's super situational, though, and will not get used like 90% of the time.
Light of the Emperor... morale? We don't have morale problems, but I guess it might be valuable if we start running giant blocks of infantry.
Divine Guidance is neat. It's a strong effect, but if you're not spreading it you're not really getting a whole lot of value back. This will be your go-to act, though.
Hand of the Emperor isn't particularly good, but sometimes that 3" will just make the difference, so it's at least situational.
The Passion is a hard pass. Celestine, and maybe a Canoness, are really our only useful CQC units.
The key, I think is the 3CP strategem that lets you target a character and spread the Act to everybody around them. With Ebon Chalice; you blob up around a Dialogus, and get re-rollable 3+ +1 to hit for probably around half your army. It'll take a lot of CP's, though, but if Ministorium won't break our detachments any more, we at least won't have the choke of only being allowed 4 HQ's. I think an Ebon Chalice brigade just walking up the board sounds pretty good. Our slot-fillers for the FA/ HS/Elite slots are pretty cheap, so we can get in quite a bit of CP in our own big detachment, and then bring a battalion or brigade of Guardsmen for more CP. There still won't be much left for other stratagems. You will have lots of faith points, lots of CP, and lots of bodies, which is a recipe for being good. Deficiency in general antitank is a shortcoming, but can be remedied by taking in the discounted Tank Commanders into the IG CP block.
Otherwise, you just tag a meltagun squad with Divine Guidance and hope you get a neat buff, but don't really focus on faith, since odds are you won't get the one you want when you want it.
The big nerf to Hand of the Emperor makes me sad. It was the best one, and really contributed to our general good-ness and aggressive character; I feel.
I mentioned this in reply to one of your other comments but I really want to drive this point home.
Vessels of the Emperor's Will costs 3CP(6" range), is an 8% boost over a standard Chapter Master reroll assuming you have a Canoness and no -1s to hit. (It's 3% worse at -1), and can only be used once per turn.
Space Marine's 'Chapter Masters' stratagem (6" range) Costs 3CP and is only 8% worse(or several percent better against Eldar Flyers) than a BEST CASE usage of Vessels of the Emperor's Will. That stratagem lasts the entire game. And literally no one anywhere uses it.
Even accounting for the fact that Vessels can target different characters AND the fact that it can spread other bonuses(paltry as they are. The Passion is almost impossible to use with this for about 2 pages worth of reasons I won't get into right now) it is STILL weaker than a 3CP stratagem, in an army better suited to take advantage of that stratagem, that no one ever bothers to use.
Oh YEAH, I actually totally forgot, Vessels is only active for one PHASE. The chapter master reroll buff is active 100% of the time in both turns! Man AoFs suck.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/11 08:20:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 09:45:45
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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drbored wrote:If you remove the Faith Roll then the Acts of Faith lose their flavor. They become a thing that you will always do and always get off and they will become perfectly predictable. This could be a good thing for some, but in the end, they become a stratagem that cost a different resource, which is boring and redundant.
I disagree - if there is one thing that the last few editions of 40k should have drilled into players is that adding lots of random rolls != fun.
Because it becomes less about conserving your resources and setting up optimal situations for there use and instead becomes a coin-flip that you are best off using as early as possible because there are no guarantees it'll work. Giving up the faction trait and a bunch of points for bonuses to the random roll inevitably results in lists becoming more generic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 14:02:54
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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So everyone wants the brokenness of 7th edition Ynarri with their Sisters.
Sorry, not sorry.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 14:05:05
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Calm Celestian
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Nightlord1987 wrote:So everyone wants the brokenness of 7th edition Ynarri with their Sisters.
Sorry, not sorry.
No, we're just happier with the Index than we are with this Beta Codex.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 14:05:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/11 14:09:37
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Nightlord1987 wrote:So everyone wants the brokenness of 7th edition Ynarri with their Sisters.
Sorry, not sorry.
Yes, obviously the only reason people might say a mechanic is too weak is that they want it too strong.
There is no middle ground on DakkaDakka.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/12/12 03:29:04
Subject: Faction Focus: Adepta Sororitas up
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mr Morden wrote:Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her
To be fair, it's not like this is new incidence. DW used to have special Chaplain, Librarian, and Dread in 7th, plus two sergeants, all are just generic models now, ditto with Overkill guys...
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