Many of you might already know this, but for those that do not - Astartes Part 4 is now available to watch on youtube.

I cannot stress how awesome this guy and his interpretation/rendition of a 40k astartes boarding action is. Fluff marines in excellent CGI.
He definately deservers more attention (and Patreons!)

Astartes Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-MteECxZUY
Astartes Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfGPMJ8A0QY
Astartes Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4
Astartes Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2B6de1Geks&fbclid=IwAR14mSfKXhYWm2o6uoJO_YAUW_-GYOXGiErVcHPFCHMuRP_D_oa1M6MKTS4

Wow, the latest part is shockingly good.

Already posted! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/769469.page

These are awesome!

Amazing quality considering it's solo effort. This guy needs to be hired by GW and given a team to release a proper full length film

Fantastic to see Marines being portrayed properly for once. Methodical, Surgical, Unrelenting.

And the bolters sound properly heavy, not like glorified sub-machine guns in some depictions of space marines.

I'm surprised this guy wasn't also contacted like the guy that does helsreach

Very nice videos!

Although Bolters look too small, both boltguns and bolt pistols look far too thin. This is probably very personal view as my first introduction to 40k lore and imagery happened around 3rd edition where the bolters where enormous in the artworks.

Although I think fluffwise it would make sense for them to carry 'oversized' weapons because the power armor system allows them this.

Yeah, I love that. And in that scenario I don't think how seemingly indestructible they are is unrealistic.
I think in game, you'd fancy 10 space marines in an enclosed space taking on a much larger number of guard or human equivalents.
I suspect they aren't going to have it all their own way as the story proceeds though.

It's fantastic, and it makes the teaser trailer for Angels of Death look like pish.

Can almost guarantee geederps have derped up again.

I never understood why they didn't support Erasmus (The Lord Inquisitor).

zerosignal wrote:
It's fantastic, and it makes the teaser trailer for Angels of Death look like pish.

Can almost guarantee geederps have derped up again.

I never understood why they didn't support Erasmus (The Lord Inquisitor).

(Disclaimer: I am not a copyright lawyer) I think it was because of German Copyright law. From what I remember, under British, American and otherwise "normal" copyright law, it's possible to sign away the copyright for something you make to a third party, since even if it's a transformative work using elements of other peoples copyright, you still own the copyright to the actual thing you made. Say for example you drew a bottle of Pepsi. You own the copyright to that actual picture of the bottle of Pepsi, but you don't own the copyright to Pepsi as a whole. Under German Copyright law this is impossible to do, and GW were not willing to let that happen.

Well atleast in American system copyright always stays with owner, in a manner that the original creator/inventor is entitled to recognized as the original creator, but the economic rights can be transferred and sold etc.

Its a good series, but I found it hard to tell what was going on in some cases as it happened really quick and you kind of have to pay attention to what was going on.

It wasn't clear that the traitor guardsman had a bomb when he got stabbed, or that the multilaser gunner got blinded.

Also, the marines look a bit big.
Overall impressive work though. I hope he gets picked up by a company.


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 RobS wrote:
Yeah, I love that. And in that scenario I don't think how seemingly indestructible they are is unrealistic.
I think in game, you'd fancy 10 space marines in an enclosed space taking on a much larger number of guard or human equivalents.
I suspect they aren't going to have it all their own way as the story proceeds though.

Yeah, marines would be brutal in close quarters and corridors, as they fast, heavily armored and its hard to use heavy weapons in confined spaces, which you need to effectively kill them.

zerosignal wrote:
It's fantastic, and it makes the teaser trailer for Angels of Death look like pish.

Can almost guarantee geederps have derped up again.

I never understood why they didn't support Erasmus (The Lord Inquisitor).

He may be among the first, but he’s probably the worst of the 4(death of hope, helsreach, Astartes, Lord inquistor, not in any order)overall.

Parts I like about lord inquisitor: background world building.

Parts I dislike about lord inquisitor: guardsmen on parade looking like clones, not every guardsmen is 6 ft tall and weight a certain amount, marines in power armor I can understand; sound of the inquisitor pee shooter as it sound like a toy; portray of the inquisitor and dialogues but that is subjective.

Overall, I’m loving it - but I do think the one marine should have gotten canned by the multi-laser (could have easily made it the one gets dropped, but the second one in pulls the plasma pistol and wastes the fixed gun).

This certainly shows marines at their most vicious and awe-inspiring, but I’m an old fogey and come from an era depicting artwork of marines getting chewed up, but still coming. It’s kind of like watching a video where stormtroopers are hitting their targets and taking down rebels (or the scene at the end of Rogue One with Vader). It’s great, but doesn’t quite match what you’re used to...

Yeah, one of the marines should have bought it. It would have shown that they can be killed, they are just really tough. There's no drama if the hero or foe is unkillable.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, one of the marines should have bought it. It would have shown that they can be killed, they are just really tough. There's no drama if the hero or foe is unkillable.

To be fair though, the mutli laser is hardly a marine killing weapon. At first I thought that was a lascannon and figured that's how one of the marines were going to bit it. Traitor guard need to break out the big guns.

I think you'll see plenty of marines die when they get to that vault and face those big dudes (other Astartes?) etc.

 Elbows wrote:
I think you'll see plenty of marines die when they get to that vault and face those big dudes (other Astartes?) etc.

They look like sigmarines!

"Multi-lasers are marine killers!"
"AP0"

I thought the sniper rifle guys hiding next to the corridor were going to take down at least one.

Did you notice the shot in this episode where a guy basically gets blown in half by a bolter shell? Eww. Cool!

yeah once one of the marines die thats when things are going to hit the fan and everything spirals downwards. Leaving the only marine with any personality (the one who looks up) alive.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, one of the marines should have bought it. It would have shown that they can be killed, they are just really tough. There's no drama if the hero or foe is unkillable.

To be fair though, the mutli laser is hardly a marine killing weapon. At first I thought that was a lascannon and figured that's how one of the marines were going to bit it. Traitor guard need to break out the big guns.

Yeah, that's fair. They do have terrible pen in game, and it does scorch the armor and forces the marine to find cover and toss a smoke. Maybe there will be marine casualties in the next part, when they get closer to that vault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RobS wrote:
I thought the sniper rifle guys hiding next to the corridor were going to take down at least one.

Did you notice the shot in this episode where a guy basically gets blown in half by a bolter shell? Eww. Cool!

There's another scene where a traitor gets bisected and you see his guts for about 0.5 seconds. One of the things I liked is how there's a lot of blood and guts, but its so fast you hardly notice. That's nice direction.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
"Multi-lasers are marine killers!"
"AP0"

Maybe in the game it's AP 0, but there sure seemed a helluva lot of red death in that hall. Didn't have to kill the marine, but would have seemed a little less superhero if it had punched the armor (I like my stuff a bit on the gritty side).

I'm also a bit shocked that autocannon sniper didn't tag one of the marines - that surely would've hurt. It did seem he either pulled the trigger a little soon or late and got a bit carried away shooting. I also couldn't tell - did one of the marines neutralize him?

 Stormonu wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
"Multi-lasers are marine killers!"
"AP0"

Maybe in the game it's AP 0, but there sure seemed a helluva lot of red death in that hall. Didn't have to kill the marine, but would have seemed a little less superhero if it had punched the armor (I like my stuff a bit on the gritty side).

I'm also a bit shocked that autocannon sniper didn't tag one of the marines - that surely would've hurt. It did seem he either pulled the trigger a little soon or late and got a bit carried away shooting. I also couldn't tell - did one of the marines neutralize him?

The scene is what confused me as well.
If you look closely though, here is what happens:
The lead marine gets hit by a glancing blow on the chest plate and advances.
The second marine leans in, deflects the shot on his shoulder pad (that is brilliant, since it shows WHY these pads are as huge, thick and rounded as they are).
The third one stays back, communicating with the other 2.
Then you see onemarine approach in the muzzle flashes of the auto cannon.
He then actually syncs his two shots with the autocannon, eliminating the threat.

Posted this elsewhere but it’s relevant here to.

For me the whole point of this story so far has been to establish just how good the Astartes are and it’s been done perfectly. Their precision and movement is perfectly done for possibly the first time, they give off a casual almost languid air as they purge the ship.

The enemy guard help to in this, they look very modern military, something were very familiar with plus crucially their competent, they don’t do much wrong their just totally outclassed. Killing an Astartes at this point would have been premature and undermined the whole point of this part of the story.

So far this reminds me of the start of the Predator, up to when Schwarzenegger and his team wipe out that bandit village, the whole aim of the start of the movie is to show these aren’t just normal soldiers their the best. This adds impact later when the Predator starts taking them down one by one. I’m not 100% certain this’ll go the same way but even if it doesn’t and it’s just a short focused on how awesome marines are that’ll be more than enough for me.

All the fan stuff coming out recently is awesome and each has it’s advantages, but for me this short is the first thing I’d show anyone new to 40k whose curious about marines and how good they are. It just does that perfectly.

These are amazing, I just wish they were a little longer. By the time you get through the title you're almost a quarter of the way through the video. =)

I agree with what has been said already: I think killing a marine in the 2nd & 3rd videos would have been premature, wounding...okay I could see the lead guy losing a hand to the multi-laser but whatever. And the bolters did look a little thin to me but w/e, creative license / different marks of bolters galaxy-wide will have you.

Waiting for more!

 Thairne wrote:
Many of you might already know this, but for those that do not - Astartes Part 3 is now available to watch on youtube.

I cannot stress how awesome this guy and his interpretation/rendition of a 40k astartes boarding action is. Fluff marines in excellent CGI.
He definately deservers more attention (and Patreons!)

Astartes Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-MteECxZUY
Astartes Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfGPMJ8A0QY
Astartes Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4

Looks good at first glance but it is after all only poorly concealed bolter porn. The guy who made Helsreach is still my favourite fan artist.

You almost have to watch it in slomo, or several times to catch all the little details.

Like how near the end the smoke is pushed aside by the plasma round as it passes through - I didn't catch that on my first viewing.

Maybe in the game it's AP 0, but there sure seemed a helluva lot of red death in that hall. Didn't have to kill the marine, but would have seemed a little less superhero if it had punched the armor (I like my stuff a bit on the gritty side).

Pause it as he's getting hit, and then just before he pulls the plasma pistol out. There's visible scorching and small pockmarks in the power armour from the multilaser.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Many of you might already know this, but for those that do not - Astartes Part 3 is now available to watch on youtube.

I cannot stress how awesome this guy and his interpretation/rendition of a 40k astartes boarding action is. Fluff marines in excellent CGI.
He definately deservers more attention (and Patreons!)

Astartes Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-MteECxZUY
Astartes Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfGPMJ8A0QY
Astartes Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4

Looks good at first glance but it is after all only poorly concealed bolter porn. The guy who made Helsreach is still my favourite fan artist.

There's room for both. This stuff has great use of sound.

GW likely made the correct choice in that they will have someone who is shown to be able to handle a story and will fall into the PG-13 realm over having something rated R and potentially more controversial.

I know some might say "herp derp GW sells to kids" - let's be honest about how PG-13 can reach a wider audience, at least.

If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Yeah, it was clearly causing some damage, which is why he had to take cover and throw smoke. It shows they aren't unkillable, but its very subtle.

People need to keep in mind, this is kind of a classic story arc thing and we're only 3-4 minutes into the final product (which may only be 15 minutes long). You set up the antagonist here as being super bad-ass and nigh unkillable (again, accurate enough to the fluff) because we're setting the entire stage for when some of the marines are killed.

Watching it so far, you think "whoa, unstoppable dudes!" --- and that is what adds power to the first time we see a marine get killed by one of the big baddies, or whatever is hiding in vault "2". This is a fundamental and simple story-telling mechanic. When something from vault "2' waltzes out and shoots a marine in half, it'll be all the more shocking because of the precedent set by the first depictions of the marines, etc.

Somewhere C.S. Goto is in a corner crying.

Part 4 now uploaded https://youtu.be/V2B6de1Geks

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Part 4 now uploaded https://youtu.be/V2B6de1Geks

Dammit! I'm firewalled at work!

I pity you.
It is, again, an absolute masterpiece.
I suggest you work faster so you can get home!

Will add Part 4 to first post.

Breathtaking.
I'm not exaggerating.

But what are those...things...the SM's are fighting in this one? Some sort of CSM sorcerer?
They are certainly on a different scale to the traitor guard we see in 1,2 & 3.

Probably some form of renegade Psyker. Closest tabletop equivalent would be the Malefic Lord imo (4++, no weapons)

Clearly the Marines are Iron Hands successors for making those clutch FNP rolls against Smite.

some kind of generic psyker twins is my guess...kind of remind me of something mentioned in Gaunts Ghosts...though I've not had much chance to read the newest books to kinow if its gone further.

They are enemies of the Imperium. Nothing else matters soldier.

ValentineGames wrote:
some kind of generic psyker twins is my guess...kind of remind me of something mentioned in Gaunts Ghosts...though I've not had much chance to read the newest books to kinow if its gone further.

The creator answered that - heavily augmented (mostly illegal and unsanctioned) human leaders from the uprising.
So despite their size - not marines.

Awesome stuff. moar please!

 Thairne wrote:
I pity you.
It is, again, an absolute masterpiece.
I suggest you work faster so you can get home!

Will add Part 4 to first post.

I just watched it. Sweet Celestine's chestplate, that was amazing! This is quickly becoming one of the greatest things to ever make use of the setting.

What is in vault Nr2?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, one of the marines should have bought it. It would have shown that they can be killed, they are just really tough. There's no drama if the hero or foe is unkillable.

That isn't quite true you know - plenty of traditional and mythic stories are just that. I could quote many a film where it is the case as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Overall, I’m loving it - but I do think the one marine should have gotten canned by the multi-laser (could have easily made it the one gets dropped, but the second one in pulls the plasma pistol and wastes the fixed gun).

I think as per their background they should be able to take the entire ship with no casualties.

I love how they show them at decent speeds as well. The action should be too fast to get the detail without careful viewing as they are superhuman.

 grouchoben wrote:
Wow, the latest part is shockingly good.

That is the best way to describe it.

 Thairne wrote:

Maybe in the game it's AP 0, but there sure seemed a helluva lot of red death in that hall. Didn't have to kill the marine, but would have seemed a little less superhero if it had punched the armor (I like my stuff a bit on the gritty side).

Showing them as unkillable chilling murderous forces of nature also has an emeotional punch. Struggling heroes is not really their background trope.

The scene is what confused me as well.
If you look closely though, here is what happens:
The lead marine gets hit by a glancing blow on the chest plate and advances.
The second marine leans in, deflects the shot on his shoulder pad (that is brilliant, since it shows WHY these pads are as huge, thick and rounded as they are).
The third one stays back, communicating with the other 2.
Then you see onemarine approach in the muzzle flashes of the auto cannon.
He then actually syncs his two shots with the autocannon, eliminating the threat.

Love they don't slow it down for the benefit of the humans in the audience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Somewhere C.S. Goto is in a corner crying.

This man wins the internet.

Multilasers!!!!

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Love they don't slow it down for the benefit of the humans in the audience.

Yeah, for the most part I totally agree. The pacing is excellent.

The only sequence that I have a real criticism with is the kill in part 3 when a guy gets shanked coming up behind a marine around a corner. The spacing/presentation of that short scenario took me several watches to understand what was happening. The sequence seems particularly dark and quick-cut.

Otherwise the whole thing is awesome and on-point. I'm eagerly waiting to see how this plays out for the series and the animator.

Magnificent video series, I like that the creator injects his own aesthetic while still making them recognisable and appropriate for Warhammer 40k.

I still got a few gripes though, while I appreciate the deadliness of the Marines I do feel the oppositon's tactics leave a lot to be desired. Combining the psykers from video 4 with the heavy weapons from video 3 would have been an effective tactic.

I do love certain details, especially how the second psyker intervenes to save his wounded buddy, adds an interesting bit of personality in such otherwise action-only setpiece.

Robbert Ambrose wrote:
Magnificent video series, I like that the creator injects his own aesthetic while still making them recognisable and appropriate for Warhammer 40k.

I still got a few gripes though, while I appreciate the deadliness of the Marines I do feel the oppositon's tactics leave a lot to be desired. Combining the psykers from video 4 with the heavy weapons from video 3 would have been an effective tactic.

I do love certain details, especially how the second psyker intervenes to save his wounded buddy, adds an interesting bit of personality in such otherwise action-only setpiece.

Normal Humans are panicky, stupid creatures. Dirty Chaos Worshipers doubly so!

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
I pity you.
It is, again, an absolute masterpiece.
I suggest you work faster so you can get home!

Will add Part 4 to first post.

I just watched it. Sweet Celestine's chestplate, that was amazing! This is quickly becoming one of the greatest things to ever make use of the setting.

Agreed. The things that I really enjoy.

1) Not using GW specific stuff for the bad guys. I'm sure someone has said "Uhhh, they don't sell a wheeled double-multi-laser!" etc. It's great he's not limiting himself.
2) He made a likely deliberate decision to use basic Tactical Squad marines. Not to say other stuff won't show up later, but we often get carried away as do a lot of artists and CGI folks feeling the need to have this kind of dude show up all the time:


When really, a bog-standard Space Marine Tactical Squad is already more than intimidating/cool enough. Sometimes less really is more.

If Netflix are as savvy as everyone thinks they are they would do well to pick up Astartes with a GW license. Love Death and Robots was a hit so there is a market for well done indy sci fi.

If those are two Primaris Psykers, which I think they are given the hoods, it looks like they are not IG psykers, but possibly some planet's version of the IG psyker. They are one armed and hooded. They look way better armored and prepared than regular IG. Also, the wheeled Multi-las is an old relic from Forgeworld's Vostoyan collection. But what "ship defense" uses auto cannons, and multi-las?

No telling, but with 1% of a guess, I'd say this is Traitor Planetary Defense forces who stole something, and the Marines are called in? But what would a planet have, that could fit on a small ship, that would so interest the Asartes?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If those are two Primaris Psykers, which I think they are given the hoods, it looks like they are not IG psykers, but possibly some planet's version of the IG psyker. They are one armed and hooded. They look way better armored and prepared than regular IG. Also, the wheeled Multi-las is an old relic from Forgeworld's Vostoyan collection. But what "ship defense" uses auto cannons, and multi-las?

No telling, but with 1% of a guess, I'd say this is Traitor Planetary Defense forces who stole something, and the Marines are called in? But what would a planet have, that could fit on a small ship, that would so interest the Asartes?

The first episode prefaces that this ship holds the leaders of a failed rebellion. The best toys will be inside, surely.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But what would a planet have, that could fit on a small ship, that would so interest the Astartes?

Heretics. There's always an interest in destroying Heretics. Perhaps the marines were just nearby and an Inquisitor asked for help - I could see that.

The last episode seemed to foreshadow what was behind the "giant ominous door of foreboding". Not much in a guard arsenal would merit the devotion of two high level psykers. And they were high level indeed if they could almost hold off a dedicated squad of tacs. I'd say it's a catatonic Sly Marbo.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The last episode seemed to foreshadow what was behind the "giant ominous door of foreboding". Not much in a guard arsenal would merit the devotion of two high level psykers. And they were high level indeed if they could almost hold off a dedicated squad of tacs. I'd say it's a catatonic Sly Marbo.

Are you implying Sly Marbo can be contained?

Dude,

He's got 3 strength, he's not even that.....

*HURK.....thump*

*Looks around*

Where did FezzikDaBullgryn go....?

Steelmage99 wrote:
*Looks around*

Where did FezzikDaBullgryn go....?

I don't know. I turned away for a moment, then I heard, "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!" When I looked back he was gone.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The last episode seemed to foreshadow what was behind the "giant ominous door of foreboding". Not much in a guard arsenal would merit the devotion of two high level psykers. And they were high level indeed if they could almost hold off a dedicated squad of tacs. I'd say it's a catatonic Sly Marbo.

Nah mate. Illegal Sly Marbo clones that have been brainwashed to serve chaos.
Clearly the greatest threat to humanity since the Heresy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Well, the game is trying to be in some fashion PvP-balanced, rather than trying to design a PvE "aren't Space Marines the greatest badasses of all time that are faster than the Eldar/tougher than the Necrons/killier than the Orks/all stapled together in one ludicrous package of WOO GO SPACE MARINES! propaganda" experience.

Was Dawn of War: Dark Crusade more fun because the developers knew which faction (Eldar, in that case) they wanted to be more awesome than everyone else?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Well, the game is trying to be in some fashion PvP-balanced, rather than trying to design a PvE "aren't Space Marines the greatest badasses of all time that are faster than the Eldar/tougher than the Necrons/killier than the Orks/all stapled together in one ludicrous package of WOO GO SPACE MARINES! propaganda" experience.

Was Dawn of War: Dark Crusade more fun because the developers knew which faction (Eldar, in that case) they wanted to be more awesome than everyone else?

It wasn't the Eldar that were OP in Dark Crusade, it was the Necrons.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Well, the game is trying to be in some fashion PvP-balanced, rather than trying to design a PvE "aren't Space Marines the greatest badasses of all time that are faster than the Eldar/tougher than the Necrons/killier than the Orks/all stapled together in one ludicrous package of WOO GO SPACE MARINES! propaganda" experience.

Was Dawn of War: Dark Crusade more fun because the developers knew which faction (Eldar, in that case) they wanted to be more awesome than everyone else?

You can still do that you just increase points and increase abiltiies. However GW for endless editions has made table top marines cost too much for doing very little.

Dawn of war eldar were OP not for any good fluff reason...they could cloak their whole base with no real counter to it.

^Unit movement does not represent models jogging around at their leisure. It's a cautious advance under enemy fire. So it's fine that we dont have marines and Eldar flying about at twice the speed of humans.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Unit movement does not represent models jogging around at their leisure. It's a cautious advance under enemy fire. So it's fine that we dont have marines and Eldar flying about at twice the speed of humans.

Marines do all that fast that guardsmen. Considering they are walking tanks.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Eldar are faster than Marines so if you buff Marine speed you need to buff Eldar speed. Then you need to buff Dark Eldar and Harlequin speed too. So when do you stop? When my Harlequins can move across the board in a turn?

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Eldar are faster than Marines so if you buff Marine speed you need to buff Eldar speed. Then you need to buff Dark Eldar and Harlequin speed too. So when do you stop? When my Harlequins can move across the board in a turn?

TBH having marines move 7" and eldar infantry move 8" is not that hard and it works to represent the different speeds of the models just like orks and terminators move 5" and the difference betwen a human and a marine is +1S and +1T.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Unit movement does not represent models jogging around at their leisure. It's a cautious advance under enemy fire. So it's fine that we dont have marines and Eldar flying about at twice the speed of humans.

Marines do all that fast that guardsmen. Considering they are walking tanks.

Apparently not faster enough to warrant a higher move rate in the entire history of 40K.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Unit movement does not represent models jogging around at their leisure. It's a cautious advance under enemy fire. So it's fine that we dont have marines and Eldar flying about at twice the speed of humans.

Marines do all that fast that guardsmen. Considering they are walking tanks.

Apparently not faster enough to warrant a higher move rate in the entire history of 40K.

which is dumb, they should move at least 1/6th faster than normies and eldar should move faster than marines. it's not that hard to represent it in the game. Move, Move, Move should make them move an extra 3" not a full movement value or drop the base M to 5". Eldar already have a 7" move and it isnt breaking the game.

Why does every thread on DakkaDakka turn into this?

 RobS wrote:
Why does every thread on DakkaDakka turn into this?

God knows I wish it didn't. It's so tiresome.

Well, you guys didn't stick with the play acting, so the Metanerds came in to debate Guardsman orders, cost, and Eldar movement.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, you guys didn't stick with the play acting, so the Metanerds came in to debate Guardsman orders, cost, and Eldar movement.

That's because Sly Marbo's a CHUMP! Oooh, yeah I said it!!

*Hides under desk*

That guy's gonna have to get through my henchmen first.

Status check, Bob. . . .Bob check in.

Bob?

*static*

. . .

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Eldar are faster than Marines so if you buff Marine speed you need to buff Eldar speed. Then you need to buff Dark Eldar and Harlequin speed too. So when do you stop? When my Harlequins can move across the board in a turn?

Scale my friend. Dark eldar are just eldar. They can have similar speed profiles. You make the difference like with DE jetbikes they auto advance 8 instead of 6. Plus venoms move 18" instead of vipers 16". They already do make these distinctions. Fluff should be emulated by table to rules. There should never be a situation where humans are moving faster than super humans. It is beyond immersion breaking and dumb. It is literally stupidity at it's finest. Funny I never lost immersion watching any of these videos.


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 RobS wrote:
Why does every thread on DakkaDakka turn into this?

Because why wouldn't it turn into this. Marines are the core of 40k and have had trash rules for 15 years.

"Move move move" is a stupid mechanic. Right up there with (almost) all the double-fight/double-move/double-shoot rules. "These guys are so awesome, in addition to being the super-badass-bestest ever possible, when things go right - they do it *twice*!" A great way to make an option feel impactful. A terrible option for balance, immersion, or scale.


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Marines are the core of 40k and have had trash rules for 15 years.

Funny how those "trash rules" kept them near the top of the pack for most of the last 15 years.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, you guys didn't stick with the play acting, so the Metanerds came in to debate Guardsman orders, cost, and Eldar movement.

I explained why I liked the video with a proper representation of marine speed.


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Bharring wrote:
"Move move move" is a stupid mechanic. Right up there with (almost) all the double-fight/double-move/double-shoot rules. "These guys are so awesome, in addition to being the super-badass-bestest ever possible, when things go right - they do it *twice*!" A great way to make an option feel impactful. A terrible option for balance, immersion, or scale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marines are the core of 40k and have had trash rules for 15 years.

Funny how those "trash rules" kept them near the top of the pack for most of the last 15 years.

By avoiding using actual space marines though. Plus almost ever match back in those days was marines vs marines at my club so I honestly have no idea what tournaments looked like. I just know the vanila power armored marine has been one of the worst units in the game ever since I started playing. It's lame. There is no disputing this ether - look how awesome they are when represented properly.

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Eldar are faster than Marines so if you buff Marine speed you need to buff Eldar speed. Then you need to buff Dark Eldar and Harlequin speed too. So when do you stop? When my Harlequins can move across the board in a turn?

Scale my friend. Dark eldar are just eldar. They can have similar speed profiles. You make the difference like with DE jetbikes they auto advance 8 instead of 6. Plus venoms move 18" instead of vipers 16". They already do make these distinctions. Fluff should be emulated by table to rules. There should never be a situation where humans are moving faster than super humans. It is beyond immersion breaking and dumb. It is literally stupidity at it's finest. Funny I never lost immersion watching any of these videos.


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 RobS wrote:
Why does every thread on DakkaDakka turn into this?

Because why wouldn't it turn into this. Marines are the core of 40k and have had trash rules for 15 years.

Dark Eldar are supposedly much faster than normal Eldar. As in Olympic athletes compared to me faster.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marines are the core of 40k and have had trash rules for 15 years.

Funny how those "trash rules" kept them near the top of the pack for most of the last 15 years.

By avoiding using actual space marines though. Plus almost ever match back in those days was marines vs marines at my club so I honestly have no idea what tournaments looked like. I just know the vanila power armored marine has been one of the worst units in the game ever since I started playing. It's lame. There is no disputing this ether - look how awesome they are when represented properly.

Marines? One of the worst units over the past 15 years?
Someone never saw how Guardsmen did in 6e/7e. Marines outperformed them easily.
Someone never saw how Dire Avengers did outside DAVU. It's hard to say Dire Avengers are awesome because of DAVU, but Marines are garbage despite early-7th Obsec Spam or late-7th Gladius.
Someone never saw how Guardians did in 6e/7e.
Someone never saw how Windriders did in 6e/8e.
Somoene never saw how Rangers did in 6e/7e.
Someone never saw how Wyches did.
Or Kabs.
Or Wracks.
Fire Warriors.
Kroot.
Breachers.
Necron Warriors.
Immortals.
Storm Guardians.
I could go on.

Marines have outperformed just about any other single troop over the last three editions combined.

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marines are the core of 40k and have had trash rules for 15 years.

Funny how those "trash rules" kept them near the top of the pack for most of the last 15 years.

By avoiding using actual space marines though. Plus almost ever match back in those days was marines vs marines at my club so I honestly have no idea what tournaments looked like. I just know the vanila power armored marine has been one of the worst units in the game ever since I started playing. It's lame. There is no disputing this ether - look how awesome they are when represented properly.

Marines? One of the worst units over the past 15 years?
Someone never saw how Guardsmen did in 6e/7e. Marines outperformed them easily.
Someone never saw how Dire Avengers did outside DAVU. It's hard to say Dire Avengers are awesome because of DAVU, but Marines are garbage despite early-7th Obsec Spam or late-7th Gladius.
Someone never saw how Guardians did in 6e/7e.
Someone never saw how Windriders did in 6e/8e.
Somoene never saw how Rangers did in 6e/7e.
Someone never saw how Wyches did.
Or Kabs.
Or Wracks.
Fire Warriors.
Kroot.
Breachers.
Necron Warriors.
Immortals.
Storm Guardians.
I could go on.

Marines have outperformed just about any other single troop over the last three editions combined.

I've really gotta say you must be delusional....are you talking about the edition where any unit in cover obtained a 4++ save essentially? Marines outperformed things in those editions? No man. Plus we can go on an on about gladius. A 2000(2500) point gladius army vs 2000 point of competitive armies was a fair battle. Nuff said. If you took those units without gladius formation you would be rofl stomped off the table.


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pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want more accurate marines on the tabletop you use Custodes rules.

Even that representation is poor. This is something these videos get right. Marines do not move at human speeds. They move at Eldar speeds which this game also gets wrong. Marines and eldar should have double the move statistic compared to guardsmen. However. This game gets it ass backwards and guardsmen out move marines AND eldar with "move move move". How bout dat?

Eldar are faster than Marines so if you buff Marine speed you need to buff Eldar speed. Then you need to buff Dark Eldar and Harlequin speed too. So when do you stop? When my Harlequins can move across the board in a turn?

Scale my friend. Dark eldar are just eldar. They can have similar speed profiles. You make the difference like with DE jetbikes they auto advance 8 instead of 6. Plus venoms move 18" instead of vipers 16". They already do make these distinctions. Fluff should be emulated by table to rules. There should never be a situation where humans are moving faster than super humans. It is beyond immersion breaking and dumb. It is literally stupidity at it's finest. Funny I never lost immersion watching any of these videos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RobS wrote:
Why does every thread on DakkaDakka turn into this?

Because why wouldn't it turn into this. Marines are the core of 40k and have had trash rules for 15 years.

Dark Eldar are supposedly much faster than normal Eldar. As in Olympic athletes compared to me faster.

Citation needed. They are just eldar. They have no special augments. Incubi are literally just DE aspect warriors - no special augments. Their vehicles...yes - they are faster - and that is and has been represented in the game for a while now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 RobS wrote:
Why does every thread on DakkaDakka turn into this?

God knows I wish it didn't. It's so tiresome.

Agreed. Please can we stick to the topic of this awesome fan made film and not discuss "Marines suck and are underpowered compared to IG" #6344433, nor yet any variant there of.
Thanks,
ingtaer.

Apparently I might be wrong about the extent of it but:

Dark Eldar are similar in many ways to the rest of the Eldar race - tall, lithe, humanoids with tapered ears and sharp eyes.[1a] However, generations of physical conflict combined with living inside the Dark City has led to a number of distinct variations. The skin of a Dark Eldar is almost translucent, an effect of the lack of sunlight within Commorragh.[1a] A Dark Eldar's strength and reflexes are actually superior to that of a Craftworld Eldar[1a] - pict-captures of the Evolus Massacre had to be slowed to one-fourth speed in order to follow the movements of individual Kabalites as they slaughtered Imperial civilians.[5b] Stories of Dark Eldar dodging shots from lasguns and kicking frag grenades back into the enemy's ranks are common,[5b] and within the gladiatorial arenas a single Wych is more than a match for any ten human warriors.[6] Dark Eldar senses are also sharper, allowing them to see their enemies perfectly well even during pitch darkness.[5a]

However, Dark Eldar psykers are virtually unheard-of. The innate psychic abilities common to the Eldar race have atrophied within the Dark Eldar, partly due to their focus on physical athleticism. Furthermore, to use any psychic powers would draw the attention of Slaanesh, and is one of the few things expressly forbidden within Commorragh.[1a]

I love this series. I am sure IG fans will complain because the Marines are not shown struggling enough, but they are missing the point. These marines have done this over and over for decades if not centuries, in simulations, training as well as actual experience. To them this is Tuesday.

The videos highlight extremely well how efficient they are. It's not about the 'power level' of them being X strong and X tough, it is about how they go about getting the job done.

And yeah, the psykers were noted by the creator to be rather low-level psykers whose abilities are enhanced by various augments, like their masks and spine-things. It makes them powerful enough to put up a fight, evidently, but not powerful enough to win 2v5.

It also highlights how Marines can be this useful despite being very few and recruiting very slowly. If this is how they go about their business, they do not need to send large forces or suffer frequent casualties to succeed.

Side note, the renegade soldiers were not portrayed as incompetent either, which is a rare treat. They set up heavy weapons in choke points, sniper ambush, surprise attack with explosives, and so on. It was just not enough with such a disparity in troop quality.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I love this series. I am sure IG fans will complain because the Marines are not shown struggling enough, but they are missing the point. These marines have done this over and over for decades if not centuries, in simulations, training as well as actual experience. To them this is Tuesday.

The videos highlight extremely well how efficient they are. It's not about the 'power level' of them being X strong and X tough, it is about how they go about getting the job done.

And yeah, the psykers were noted by the creator to be rather low-level psykers whose abilities are enhanced by various augments, like their masks and spine-things. It makes them powerful enough to put up a fight, evidently, but not powerful enough to win 2v5.

It also highlights how Marines can be this useful despite being very few and recruiting very slowly. If this is how they go about their business, they do not need to send large forces or suffer frequent casualties to succeed.

Side note, the renegade soldiers were not portrayed as incompetent either, which is a rare treat. They set up heavy weapons in choke points, sniper ambush, surprise attack with explosives, and so on. It was just not enough with such a disparity in troop quality.

Exactly. And notice that, yes, the Marine tanked a Multilaser head on, but he didn't just stand there in his OPPLZNERF awesomeness, he quickly fell back, popped a smoke and cracked out the Plasma to obliterate an entrenched target. Perfect execution. The entire point of armour is to take hits, and Astartes Power Armour is explicitly designed to pretty much facetank things such as Multilasers.

The part where the two flanking brothers just reload, give each other a subtle nod, then immediately get in to position, brace their guns and fire at full auto all in one seamless action. It's sublime. It's godlike. It's goooooooooooooood.

Agreed. Plus, the multilaser is like the worst weapon of its class in the imperial arsenal to shoot at an astartes with. Wasn't it like AP0?

Seems more like a crowd suppression weapon than an armour-busting tool to me.

Did you guys notice how when they started the attack on the Psykers, that the marines only started with the barely perceptible nod from the plasma pistol user?


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I also enjoyed how if one looked closely, all the Astartes survived the psykers’ attacks at the end?

My weird observation:

Aside from knives and a plasma pistol, almost ZERO non Bolter weapons. One would think on a ship breaching action against known guard elements, a HB, a Melta, or even a Flamer would get overtime work in. Also, zero Melee. No one is even carrying a chainsword?

Ashiraya wrote:I love this series. I am sure IG fans will complain because the Marines are not shown struggling enough, but they are missing the point. These marines have done this over and over for decades if not centuries, in simulations, training as well as actual experience. To them this is Tuesday.

The videos highlight extremely well how efficient they are. It's not about the 'power level' of them being X strong and X tough, it is about how they go about getting the job done.

And yeah, the psykers were noted by the creator to be rather low-level psykers whose abilities are enhanced by various augments, like their masks and spine-things. It makes them powerful enough to put up a fight, evidently, but not powerful enough to win 2v5.

It also highlights how Marines can be this useful despite being very few and recruiting very slowly. If this is how they go about their business, they do not need to send large forces or suffer frequent casualties to succeed.

Side note, the renegade soldiers were not portrayed as incompetent either, which is a rare treat. They set up heavy weapons in choke points, sniper ambush, surprise attack with explosives, and so on. It was just not enough with such a disparity in troop quality.

BaconCatBug wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I love this series. I am sure IG fans will complain because the Marines are not shown struggling enough, but they are missing the point. These marines have done this over and over for decades if not centuries, in simulations, training as well as actual experience. To them this is Tuesday.

The videos highlight extremely well how efficient they are. It's not about the 'power level' of them being X strong and X tough, it is about how they go about getting the job done.

And yeah, the psykers were noted by the creator to be rather low-level psykers whose abilities are enhanced by various augments, like their masks and spine-things. It makes them powerful enough to put up a fight, evidently, but not powerful enough to win 2v5.

It also highlights how Marines can be this useful despite being very few and recruiting very slowly. If this is how they go about their business, they do not need to send large forces or suffer frequent casualties to succeed.

Side note, the renegade soldiers were not portrayed as incompetent either, which is a rare treat. They set up heavy weapons in choke points, sniper ambush, surprise attack with explosives, and so on. It was just not enough with such a disparity in troop quality.

Exactly. And notice that, yes, the Marine tanked a Multilaser head on, but he didn't just stand there in his OPPLZNERF awesomeness, he quickly fell back, popped a smoke and cracked out the Plasma to obliterate an entrenched target. Perfect execution. The entire point of armour is to take hits, and Astartes Power Armour is explicitly designed to pretty much facetank things such as Multilasers.

The part where the two flanking brothers just reload, give each other a subtle nod, then immediately get in to position, brace their guns and fire at full auto all in one seamless action. It's sublime. It's godlike. It's goooooooooooooood.

The portrayal of the marines just further highlights their operational efficiency. The seamless team tactics are something that only comes from repetition. How many times do you think a marine has fired his bolter, drawn his knife, dodged incoming fire, my guess would be in the millions of times. Irrespective of training or combat experience, a Marine, his bolter & knife are one and an extension of the Emperors wrath. A Marine with decades(maybe centuries)of battles with his squad would be able to move in unison and not need any verbal communication to accomplish the objective. When you have trained with the same people for so long you develop an instinctual sense for what your squad mate would do in a given situation. So a superhuman killing machine doing superhuman killing machine things would look something like this.That being said, we have no idea what the comms traffic from Marine to Marine sounded like inside their helmets.

^This is why ATSKNF was such a great rule in earlier editions, and why the UM tactic is cool now. It represents exactly that sort of practiced dedication and commitment.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Agreed. Plus, the multilaser is like the worst weapon of its class in the imperial arsenal to shoot at an astartes with. Wasn't it like AP0?

Seems more like a crowd suppression weapon than an armour-busting tool to me.

Same class weapon as a lascannon. Lasers just keep getting stronger and stronger the more energy you put into them. If a lasgun can hurt a marine a multi laser can hurt it more.


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 Insectum7 wrote:
^This is why ATSKNF was such a great rule in earlier editions, and why the UM tactic is cool now. It represents exactly that sort of practiced dedication and commitment.

Wow dude - just wow.

Dudes communicating without speaking and putting out swift coordinated attacks is represented well by a rule that hurts you as often as it helps?

^Read it again. A little more carefully.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Same class weapon as a lascannon

Yes, and an autogun is the same class of weapon as a meltagun. Different weapons do different things.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Same class weapon as a lascannon

Yes, and an autogun is the same class of weapon as a meltagun. Different weapons do different things.

Wait, no they're not. An autogun fires a solid slug; it's essentially the 40k equivalent of a modern assault rifle. A meltagun doesn't have a solid projectile at all. Meanwhile a lascannon is literally a multilaser writ large; they both use the same technology, but the Multilaser sacrifices power for rate of fire. They even both have the same style of muzzle on models, whereas an Autogun looks nothing like a meltagun.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Same class weapon as a lascannon

Yes, and an autogun is the same class of weapon as a meltagun. Different weapons do different things.

Wait, no they're not. An autogun fires a solid slug; it's essentially the 40k equivalent of a modern assault rifle. A meltagun doesn't have a solid projectile at all. Meanwhile a lascannon is literally a multilaser writ large; they both use the same technology, but the Multilaser sacrifices power for rate of fire. They even both have the same style of muzzle on models, whereas an Autogun looks nothing like a meltagun.

Lascannons and multilasters are both heavy weapons that are generally crew served or vehicle mounted. In that sense, they are the same class of gun. They have vastly different roles.
A las pistol and an inferno pistol are both sidearms. The same class of weapon again. And again vastly different jobs and role.

I would not have used an autogun/meltagun in the exmple. While both could technically be classed as shoulder arms/rifles, I think of the autogun as a basic rifle, while the meltagun is a special weapon

A multilaser is not designed for hard targets. It’s the laser equivelent of a high ROF light machine gun. It trades strength and penetration for more shots. Designed to mulch lightly armored foes in great numbers, at range. Now it can be a threat to marines, as it does put out a LOT of fire. But killing them is not it’s primary job. But when the marines are storming your ship, you use what you have.

Awesome CGI, but highly unrealistic. Everyone who plays 40k knows that guardsmen are hard to kill and do tons of damage. And space marines are slow, and die to a stiff breeze. One shot from a plasma pistol cant kill a heavy weapons crew. Psykers simply smite space marines, and they die. A space marine with his basic CC weapon can't kill a psyker with one attack, he only does 1 damage

 Nevelon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Same class weapon as a lascannon

Yes, and an autogun is the same class of weapon as a meltagun. Different weapons do different things.

Wait, no they're not. An autogun fires a solid slug; it's essentially the 40k equivalent of a modern assault rifle. A meltagun doesn't have a solid projectile at all. Meanwhile a lascannon is literally a multilaser writ large; they both use the same technology, but the Multilaser sacrifices power for rate of fire. They even both have the same style of muzzle on models, whereas an Autogun looks nothing like a meltagun.

A multilaser is not designed for hard targets. It’s the laser equivelent of a high ROF light machine gun. It trades strength and penetration for more shots.

That's literally what I said.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Same class weapon as a lascannon

Yes, and an autogun is the same class of weapon as a meltagun. Different weapons do different things.

Wait, no they're not. An autogun fires a solid slug; it's essentially the 40k equivalent of a modern assault rifle. A meltagun doesn't have a solid projectile at all. Meanwhile a lascannon is literally a multilaser writ large; they both use the same technology, but the Multilaser sacrifices power for rate of fire. They even both have the same style of muzzle on models, whereas an Autogun looks nothing like a meltagun.

A multilaser is not designed for hard targets. It’s the laser equivelent of a high ROF light machine gun. It trades strength and penetration for more shots.

That's literally what I said.

I think the disconnect is how we define class of weapon. Are you classifying them by role (anti-tank vs. anti infantry) or type (heavy, rifle, pistol) in one case the multilaser and the LC are the same class, in the other, they are not.

Both are correct, it’s a point of view/definition thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:


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 Insectum7 wrote:
^This is why ATSKNF was such a great rule in earlier editions, and why the UM tactic is cool now. It represents exactly that sort of practiced dedication and commitment.

Wow dude - just wow.

Dudes communicating without speaking and putting out swift coordinated attacks is represented well by a rule that hurts you as often as it helps?

I don't think they are necessarily silent. It's just that with a fully enclosed helmet you wouldn't be able to hear quiet comms and commands if they are not activating an external.speaker. given that all the marines are in different locations and coming from different angles I dont see how it could just be the nod. It just looks super awesome with an apparently silent command leading to the hurt being brought

Racerguy180 wrote:
That being said, we have no idea what the comms traffic from Marine to Marine sounded like inside their helmets.

"Mike you moron, shoot the bastard!" "No, not him, the other one!" "You gakker just wait there while I come to save you, again."