As the title says, what units in the game are pretty effective against Knights? I can think of groups of Talos Pain Engines, Skyweavers, Smash Captains..

Anything else? What else are people using to handle/deal with Knights in their respective armies?

Custode Jetbikes, and Genestealer Cult Abberants for the two armies I play.

Wulfen do pretty well with TH/SS combo.

DEldar can spam enough Darklances get the job done generally.

Even Sanguinary Guard can do a pretty good number on them although you need a few buffing characters to do it so not the most points-efficient choice.

Wraithguard webway bomb is pretty effective with some psychic support.

Multiple Neutron Onager Dunecrawlers...

What army? Chaos has dp with skullcleaver relic and bloodletters. Others already mentioned what else is an option. Eldar also have harliquens, 6 in a starweaver all with fusion pistols, can put some serious hurt on a knight even if it has a 3++.

Haywire Skyweavers. With doom, they can drop a knight in one round of shooting.

 buddha wrote:
Haywire Skyweavers. With doom, they can drop a knight in one round of shooting.

Thanks, I knew I had forgotten one!

Shadowsword. Assuming I can fire it before it dies, It kills or cripples most knights.

"Wraithguard webway bomb is pretty effective with some psychic support."

Not likely. Even with 10, it's 10x(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) 40/27 or about 1.5 failed saves on a 3++, or about an EV of 5.2 wounds/round.

Doom increases this by only 33%. Guide by another 33%. Jinx by another 33%.

So, assuming you WWP within 12", get a Farsseer and Warlock up close too, and get 3 of 3 powers off without being denied, you're getting something like 11.5 wounds on a 3++ Knight.

That's a lot of points to suicide to not kill a Knight.

Doom is amazing when mixed with haywire cannons from harliquens.

5 bikes firing 5d6 shots, hitting on 3's, with 4/5 to wound being a mortal and 6 being 1d3 mortal, rerolling 1-4's, on top of the actual damage the units do.... it will end a knight damn quick or at least make them weak enough to be less effective.

Those Harlequin bikes really peed me off when my Lord of Skulls went up against them. They rocked a couple powers from the Shadowseer? and some fancy pants stratagems to make them have a 3++ too. So yeah, that's a really good anti-knight option!

 Horst wrote:
Shadowsword. Assuming I can fire it before it dies, It kills or cripples most knights.

Tallarn Shadowsword coming on from Ambush strat.

3 Manticore Platforms firing all their rockets at once.

Possibly 3 Tank Commanders fully decked out + Pask.

But most of all, getting first turn is probably the bigger decider.

Would a unit of five Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas, with Prescience from a Sorcerer, a Chaos Lord in support, Veterans of the Long War, and Endless Cacophony do it?

Necron Pylon is also pretty good.

Ork DeathSkulz Smasha-Mek-Gunz

at 31 points per gun, I can field a good number to equal a knight's points
(they come as a single unit of up to 5, avoiding the rule of three limit,
which then split as individual units once deployed)

(can anyone show me the maths on this?
I just know I put a poop-ton of shots down range)

Chris

 Karhedron wrote:
DEldar can spam enough Darklances get the job done generally.

Not unless you're also rocking an Eldar Farseer with Doom (in which case you're better off with Disintegrators anyway).

Admech with dragoons or fulgurites in melee, or kastelans with WoM in shooting. Neutron onagers deal a lot of damage but only if they can get past that 3++.

Bharring wrote:
So, assuming you WWP within 12", get a Farsseer and Warlock up close too, and get 3 of 3 powers off without being denied, you're getting something like 11.5 wounds on a 3++ Knight.

You are assuming every Knight has IB and RIS. If it is a Dominus class, those CPs won't last long and if he is running multiple Knights, he can only RIS one per turn. Pick your targets and wait for the right time to strike. Don't throw a unit away if you know he is going to be getting a 3++ that turn.

Null Zone is a situational/difficult tool that can work wonders; usually counters to Knights are melee because their Invul doesn't work in melee, turning it off against ranged attacks means armies without great anti-armour at range don't struggle to drop one as much.

 kastelen wrote:
Admech with dragoons or fulgurites in melee, or kastelans with WoM in shooting. Neutron onagers deal a lot of damage but only if they can get past that 3++.

Neutron nagas ballistarii all suffer from too few shots though collectively they will chip a few wounds. dragoons and fulgurites died with the stygies nerf sure a full unit of dragoons hitting a knight is nice but its not reliable plus a skilled opponent will just deploy their crusaders well away or screen them

Our best answers are

1) Plasma Kataphrons ryza (one shot wonder will normally die shortly after)
2) Infiltrators +WoM mars (efficient 1/3-1/2)
3) breachers + eye of agripinaa

Kastelans can do the job but only with a huge pts investment so its an answer but not a pts efficient one

Magnus plus Mortarion combo. If yoy managed to go first, you can cast all the buff power on themselves to make them nearly unkillable. Then proceed to slaughter any Imperial Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, the best thing to kill an IK is mortal wound spam. High RoF Heywire weapon is the best to do so, which almost exclusive to Aledrai. And the best platform is Skyweaver, fast, durable since hard to hit and inv save, and their shooting is accurate.

Drukhari can get somr haywire as well right? On scourges?

I use my Necron Doomsday Arks to try to bait out RIS, then once my opponent commits or if I can a good amount of damage through I commit, use Methodical Destruction for 2CP (adding 1 to all further Hit rolls for Sautekh units) and next (or first, depending) I use my Triarch Stalker to shoot at the Knight (letting me re-roll hit rolls of 1 against that Knight). To finish it off I fire dozens of Immortals with Tesla Carbines into the Knight, usually with My Will Be Done so they trigger tesla on 4s, 5s and 6s and hit on 2+. I am getting 4,3 hits for each Immortal on average. This tactic lets me make swift work of Knights (unless they have a 2+ Sv).

Imotekh the Stormlord is also very good against Knights, not only because he can use My Will Be Done twice each turn (letting me use it 5 times with 2 Overlords, Imotekh and the Phaeron's Will Stratagem), but also because he can quick-start the death of a Knight with his Storm ability, letting him deal D6 MWs once per game.

The Seraptek Heavy Construct makes short work of Knights in melee, but how reliably I have been getting it into melee can probably mostly be attributed to good rolls on the fairly mediocre 3+/5++.

Knights are a pain to deal with if you are playing an army that relies on S4 to deal with infantry, if you can switch out your S4 anti-infantry weapons for more S5 anti-infantry you will have a slightly better chance of putting some extra damage on a Knight. I had many games with my Warrior-centric force that ended with brutal Necron slaughters because my S4 Gauss Flayers were no match for the Toughness 8 Knights. In my current army everyone can pitch in with everything, even if I shoot the lascannon equivalents on my Triarch Stalkers at a unit of Orks I'm at least getting a buff to my other units and my anti-infantry Immortals with Tesla Carbines can wound Knights twice as often as Necron Warriors (and put out far more hits as well). In my army with the worst win rate against Knights my Warriors were useless against Knights, while my Heavy Destroyers were useless against Ork Boyz and the Heavy Destroyers ended up dying too quickly to make a difference against Knights, leaving me vulnerable with units that were hyper-focussed at doing a few things and none of them helping against what my opponent had. Getting a pts reduction has helped a lot as well. Before CA2018 I sometimes took 3 Doomsday Arks and 18 Destroyers, that way I was guarenteed to have some anti-Knight firepower left even after the first couple of turns. I also used Gauss Pylons, but I found that it was a little unreliable, using a few big shots to bait out RIS before committing with my Gauss Pylon helped.

5 Iyanden Axe Guard are quite effective, especially on charge. Spiritseer plays Wraith Sight and uses psytronome at beginning of Fight Phase. For extra killing power, you could use Empower if you didn't take Protect for the Spiritseer. Also use Supreme Disdain strat to get more attacks on 6s to hit.

25 attacks, hit on 4s (rerolling 1s and 2s). Wound on 4s (with Empower, 5s if not). Doom will really help too. -3 to armour save, D3 damage. Should drop knight in one round (will be close)

Death




Hex.

My favorite part about this discussion is how some armies don't have any of these options.

Nids Forever!


Litterally nids best option is 6 hive guard double shooting and that doesn't kill one. lucky if I degrade it. Only the plus side though, the knights cant shoot the hive guard back, so I should get at least 2-3 turns with them.

Some armies don't beat knights by killing them they play the objectives and swarm.the board I ran 43 units at a gt earlier this year and the knight lists couldnt kill them fast enough.

Adepta Sororitas Dominions, mechanized, with melta guns. That and the Emperor's Benevolent Gaze smiling down on your dice. I dropped an Imperial Knight on Turn 1 with Dominions and Exorcists, then took 38 mortal wounds when it exploded with a 9" radius. Lost about a Knight's worth of points in casualties.

 vict0988 wrote:

Imotekh the Stormlord is also very good against Knights, not only because he can use My Will Be Done twice each turn (letting me use it 5 times with 2 Overlords, Imotekh and the Phaeron's Will Stratagem), but also because he can quick-start the death of a Knight with his Storm ability, letting him deal D6 MWs once per game.

Sorry mate, you cant use the storm against CHARACTERS, which knights usually are.

I just ran some numbers on the haywire weapon and I don't see it doing much to a knight. Are people counting on rolling 6's to bring it down?

As a side question, does it wound vehicles on a 4+ or only on the normal chart? If you roll a 4 and it normally wouldn't wound a target does the target still suffer a mortal wound?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just ran some numbers on the haywire weapon and I don't see it doing much to a knight. Are people counting on rolling 6's to bring it down?

As a side question, does it wound vehicles on a 4+ or only on the normal chart? If you roll a 4 and it normally wouldn't wound a target does the target still suffer a mortal wound?

Yep harlequins bikes with haywire are powerful just for that they don't need to wound per se just rolling 4+ on wound rolls triggers the effect

Often paired with a Farseer who allow wounds re-rolls (doom) all you need is go for a 4+ or 6+ if lucky to stack MW on the knights (wich he can't save at all)

Haywire is amazing against knights. Haywire blasters are d3 shots, haywire cannons are d6 shots. Strength 4, -1AP. Wounds of 4 and 5 are MW and wounds of 6 are d3 damage in addition to taking a -1 save.

A squad of 4 scourge can take 4 blasters. 3 talos can take 6 blasters. 6 Harlequins jet bikes can take 6 cannons.

Haywire ignores invulnerable saves.

You need to redo your math if you dont think that's good.

Where in the rules does it state that haywire weapons (at least harlequin ones) ignore invulnerable saves?

Against most knights a sky weaver will get 3.5 shots, if it didn't advance then it will hit 1.75 times. It wounds on a 5+ so .58 wounds, the knight saves on a 4+ total wounds suffered is .29 wounds per haywire cannon. Now out of 3.5 shots 1.75 will be 4+ so lets say that you get a 4 and a 6 that means that the knight will suffer 3 mortal wounds. Add that to the normal wounds and you get 3.29 wounds per cannon. It will take, on average 8 cannons to bring down a knight. Not bad but nothing fantastic.

If my math is wrong then please feel free to correct me.

Most people (like myself) take harliquin bikes in squads of 6. Thats 6d6 shots with haywire. Then we ally in a farseer for doom, this allows reroll failed wounds.

Doing the dirty math thats on average 21 shots, 14 hits, 10 wounds (on top of probably 12 mortal wounds), and another 5 dmg after armor save for 17 wounds total. Its incredibly expensive points wise but also incredibly effective vs any sort of vehicle they point at. Add in the bikes natural-1 to hit, another -1 to hit from a strat, and a 3++ invulnerable (thanks to anothet strat) with 3 wounds each they are not easy to kill either.

Thats only a dirty average of how many wounds i seem to do in games. Sometimes its lower (once only did 9) other times higher (got 22 a few months ago) but either way it makes an enemy knight stand up and take notice that there is a real threat on the board that needs to be delt with asap.

Are you assuming that the models are just using their normal move rather than advancing? If they advance then the 21 shots become 10 1/2 hits. How are you getting 10 wounds pre save? You only wound on a 5+ so your 14 hits should be 5-6 wounds (again pre save). On average you'll do around 9 MW. So, in total, you should be averaging around 12 wounds per volley.

I missed the re-rolling of missed wounds and to be honest don't know the math behind figuring out the effect.

Tactically would it make any difference if you took 3 units of 2 bikes? I'm a beginning CWE player and would just add a vanguard detachment of Harlies to my list.

Soaring spite harliquin "form" (or whatever you want to call them) allows all units with the fly keyword to suffer no penitly to shooting an assult weapon in a turn which they adavanced. Its the go-to harliquens force as far as i am concerned.

It also allows models that are embarked upon a transport that can fly to treat all pistol weapons they are equpped with as Assault 1 weapons during a turn in which they (or the transport they are embarked upon) advanced. It makes them faster and keeps their accuracy. Running 3 star weavers with 5 man troupe teams all with fusion pistols is a stupid scarry force (also about 200 pts a transport though).

And the rerolls to wound is very important, without it you can cut that damage output by a third to a half realistically.


Also keep in mind you don't need to wound to do the mortal wounds. A 4 to wound doesnt actually wound the knight but does cause a mortal wound. The faq even confirmed it works this way.

How about a grand master in nemesis dreadknight with 2++ save (strategem + sanctuary), with some luck i think it can take down a knight.

But, if you are 'doomed' doesnt that mean you would have to reroll all those 4s?

Doom allows rerolls of failed to wound rolls, so if you need a 5 to wound, but have a special affect on a 4, you are compelled to reroll that 4?

U02dah4 wrote:
Some armies don't beat knights by killing them they play the objectives and swarm.the board I ran 43 units at a gt earlier this year and the knight lists couldnt kill them fast enough.

I thought buffed genestealers + broodlord could maul knights pretty effectively

Shadowswords are the best.
Manticores or deathstrikes are also great particularly as the deathstrike only deals mortal wounds

 AndrewC wrote:
But, if you are 'doomed' doesnt that mean you would have to reroll all those 4s?

Doom allows rerolls of failed to wound rolls, so if you need a 5 to wound, but have a special affect on a 4, you are compelled to reroll that 4?

Doom says You can reroll not You must reroll. so you can choose if keep the 4+ or fish for a 6+

Also worth to remember Harlies are not just shooting units, so unless the knight it's properly screened, they can charge later to finish the job without the invul save (and they have an stratagem that deny Overwatch) so they can mass charge with some units and open gaps for other units.

I charged OOE and 9 Carnifexs with Hive Tyrants, Tyrant Guard and 2 Tyrannofexs into a Knight army. By god it was GLORIOUS watching knight after knight being leg humped into submission!

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would a unit of five Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas, with Prescience from a Sorcerer, a Chaos Lord in support, Veterans of the Long War, and Endless Cacophony do it?

Problem is you can't DS into half melta range, and the knight's invulnerable save makes AP-4 wasted. Lascannons would do the same job but from a safe distance, and don't need veterans of the long war to wound on 3's. Chaos terminators would be better used killing other targets. Helbrutes, havocs and las preds are a cheaper source of anti tank and can fire every turn- 5 chaos terms with meltas aren't even that much cheaper than a land raider, and work out more expensive with all the required support

Ork Tankbustas in Chinorks. Either move them across the field or Deepstrike in their flank. When the knight pops the warkopta (and the busta's survive) use the Stikkbombs strategem to 'nade 'em to death.

Probably not as point effective as 15 smasha gunz, but a lot more fun.

With orks the best tactics is to ignore it and kill the rest of the army. You need 1000+ points of ranged firepower to take a 3++ knight down, so shooting is not an option. Assaulting is also difficult since the knight is usually bubblewrapped by friendly units.

The best way to deal with it is to bring a list that spam cheap wounds other than characters and try to score points while killing the rest of the army. At some point the knight can be assaulted, but don't rely on doing that very soon.

Wulfen for example are terrible at taking down a knight because they can only outflank and then they clash against screeners. If they succeed the charge and they still are at full strenght they may get the job done, even if it requires some dead killed in return by the knight and attack twice thanks to that.

Average knights which aren't the castellan can be dealt with shooting even if we, orks, don't have an answer that can 1-shot it for the same amount of points that the knight costs.

18 smasha gunz means 36 shots plus 6 additional shots thanks to DDD on average, which means 21 hits. With their way to wound stuff they'll tipycally get 7-8 W against a knight, half of them nullyfied by the invuln. D6 for each hit that goes through, so approx 14W inflicted to the knight. With 560 points of artillery and 18 models plus 108 gretchin to buy, assemble and paint, lol

The 25 loota star will cause 18W on average with 600ish points and 5-6 CPs invested if the knight has 4++, just around 12 against the 3++ one.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Are you assuming that the models are just using their normal move rather than advancing? If they advance then the 21 shots become 10 1/2 hits. How are you getting 10 wounds pre save? You only wound on a 5+ so your 14 hits should be 5-6 wounds (again pre save). On average you'll do around 9 MW. So, in total, you should be averaging around 12 wounds per volley.

I missed the re-rolling of missed wounds and to be honest don't know the math behind figuring out the effect.

Tactically would it make any difference if you took 3 units of 2 bikes? I'm a beginning CWE player and would just add a vanguard detachment of Harlies to my list.

6D6 haywire shots = 21 hits average.

With doom, you *may* Reroll failed wounds, so you pick all 1, 2, 3 results to reroll leave 4, 5, 6 (even though 4 doesn't give you a chance at a regular wound).

Assuming doom and the knight having its 3++ up:

21 * .6666 = 14

14 * .5 (1, 2, 3 result) = 7. You can add your re-rolls to your initial rolls.

The total of these are effectively the number of "tries" you get to roll 4, 5, or 6. Each of those success results are 1/6.

21/6 = 6 results. 2 mortal wounds plus 1/3 regular wound on average.
21/6 = 5 results. 1 mortal wound plus 1/3 regular wound.
21/6 = 4 results. Just a mortal wound.

total wounds on average with doom and 3++ on the knight = 3.5+4.66+8.16 = 16.32.

^THAT is why harlequin haywire bike with souped Doom is the most popular meta solution to 3++ save single knights.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
My favorite part about this discussion is how some armies don't have any of these options.

Nids Forever!


Litterally nids best option is 6 hive guard double shooting and that doesn't kill one. lucky if I degrade it. Only the plus side though, the knights cant shoot the hive guard back, so I should get at least 2-3 turns with them.

The way I calculated it was Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws.

the_scotsman wrote:
6D6 haywire shots = 21 hits average.

With doom, you *may* Reroll failed wounds, so you pick all 1, 2, 3 results to reroll leave 4, 5, 6 (even though 4 doesn't give you a chance at a regular wound).

Assuming doom and the knight having its 3++ up:

21 * .6666 = 14

14 * .5 (1, 2, 3 result) = 7. You can add your re-rolls to your initial rolls.

The total of these are effectively the number of "tries" you get to roll 4, 5, or 6. Each of those success results are 1/6.

21/6 = 6 results. 2 mortal wounds plus 1/3 regular wound on average.
21/6 = 5 results. 1 mortal wound plus 1/3 regular wound.
21/6 = 4 results. Just a mortal wound.

total wounds on average with doom and 3++ on the knight = 3.5+4.66+8.16 = 16.32.

^THAT is why harlequin haywire bike with souped Doom is the most popular meta solution to 3++ save single knights.

Thanks for the math.

As Nids, it seems like your best options would be to make sure he's continuously "The Horror'd" to reduce his effectiveness overall, and try to go for a melee takedown.

With the horror on him, all the guns on a Raven'd up castellan with Cawl's Wrath (with the one use missiles) down a flyrant on average in a turn, with a bit of overkill. if he gets the first turn and decides to get a bit ballsy with it he'll probably get some overspill damage on something else.

So you've got about three turns for him to make all his points back while he basically drains all his army's CP to keep himself from getting shot/keep himself firing at full effectiveness. It's a tough matchup, but I can see why we do still see nid lists in the castellan meta. Having a good invuln save on your heavy stuff is really what keeps his effectiveness from spiking really hard, and Flyrants still seem to be the big Nid Heavy Thing.

I use mechanized Dominions and Exorcists. It's not really that effective, because they usually die soon afterwords and are S8, but it does work.

I also use Leman Russes and a Shadowsword.

Yeah, I assume what we're mostly talking about here is "the Boogeyman Knight" which is tacked onto a different usually Guard imperial soup list, and which 2CP is dropped on to give them the 4++ warlord trait and either Cawl's Wrath or Eternal Fury on a Crusader knight.

Then, every turn you shoot at them they pop the stratagem for a 3++, and on their turn they use the House Raven Order of Companions for reroll 1s on everything.

If you're talking about a situation where your opponent has more than one knight, their defensive/offensive profile is much less problematic because they're not able to survive conventional anti tank nearly as easily and theyre not able to make their points back nearly as quickly.

 buddha wrote:
Haywire Skyweavers. With doom, they can drop a knight in one round of shooting.

This isn't quite true. Assuming Doom DOES go off, with a single max squad of weavers you'll get 6d6 shots, which is ~21, for ~15 mortals, only 10 of which will go through the Knight's 5+++ (it's a 1CP strat that he will DEFINITELY use). While they technically CAN do it, it's statistically improbable and shouldn't be depended on.

You need two max units with Doom to cause 20 mortals, and hopefully the actual armour saves will finish him off.

Without Doom (because what self-respecting Knight player, either Imp or Chaos, doesn't have a DtW), you'll need THREE max squads. That's a lot of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timur wrote:
How about a grand master in nemesis dreadknight with 2++ save (strategem + sanctuary), with some luck i think it can take down a knight.

My GMDK one-shotted a knight once. It's highly unlikely. 5A WS3 S12 d6dmg. If you miss with two attacks, it's impossible.
But the IK player's face was worth playing Grey Knights.

Unfeasible in a realistic scenario, but i think that the cheapest way to take it down are 5 Deathwing knights buffed by a librarian and the fight again stratagem.

Less than half the cost of the castellan and 3CP for an average of 29 wounds. 1CP more to shield wall and avoid losinging a DW knight to those big feets.

Now if we are talking about a Gallant rushing at your lines, this becomes a realistic threat.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Haywire Skyweavers. With doom, they can drop a knight in one round of shooting.

This isn't quite true. Assuming Doom DOES go off, with a single max squad of weavers you'll get 6d6 shots, which is ~21, for ~15 mortals, only 10 of which will go through the Knight's 5+++ (it's a 1CP strat that he will DEFINITELY use). While they technically CAN do it, it's statistically improbable and shouldn't be depended on.

You need two max units with Doom to cause 20 mortals, and hopefully the actual armour saves will finish him off.

Without Doom (because what self-respecting Knight player, either Imp or Chaos, doesn't have a DtW), you'll need THREE max squads. That's a lot of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timur wrote:
How about a grand master in nemesis dreadknight with 2++ save (strategem + sanctuary), with some luck i think it can take down a knight.

My GMDK one-shotted a knight once. It's highly unlikely. 5A WS3 S12 d6dmg. If you miss with two attacks, it's impossible.
But the IK player's face was worth playing Grey Knights.

Well yeah, unlikely scenarios involving knights are always funny for that reason. The last time I played a regular knight it was a warden (with the 3++ and the relic gatling cannon) and I ended up charging it with a Librarian with Force axe, Captain with relic blade and chaplain, and they managed to slowly beat it down over 3 rounds of combat while not losing a single model (captain just kept making his 4++ saves against its feet)

How about 10man dark angels vanguard vets with jump packs and dual plasma pistols using the weapons of the old age and supercharge.. 20x S8 ap -3 3damage shots.. 270points deepstrike threat and not that CP hungry. Against pure knights there's no screens to avoid this.

You can do it better with 5 inceptors. Cost more but you can better avoid screens with range 18".

Spoletta wrote:
Unfeasible in a realistic scenario, but i think that the cheapest way to take it down are 5 Deathwing knights buffed by a librarian and the fight again stratagem.

Cheapest way is captn Slamguinius.

Wounding on 4s, saving on a 3+. So:

20x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 2.22 unsaved. So 6.67 wounds.

Even without screens, if it's a single T8 3++ Knight, you aren't doing much.

 p5freak wrote:

Cheapest way is captn Slamguinius.

Pretty much. 124 points and 1CP for Black Rage and the 4D warlord Trait. Spend another CP on Red Rampage and you will average around 12 points of damage. If you attack twice (HotC or Only in Death), you can drop a Questoris in a single round of combat.

Descent of Angels and Upon Wings of Fire give you closure options. The issues are mainly to do with getting round any screens your opponents may have.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would a unit of five Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas, with Prescience from a Sorcerer, a Chaos Lord in support, Veterans of the Long War, and Endless Cacophony do it?

thats a huge amount of points for 10 shoots that could fail because of his 5++.

Cheapest way is captn Slamguinius.

Move over Slamguinius, Smashboss wants to chat.

A warboss on bike with the killer klaw, the brutal but kunning trait and a weirdboy with the fist of gork power. All things that are cheap as chips and fit in most lists as extra seasoning.

6 attacks that hit and wound a knight on 2s with rerolls on both, and a flat 4 damage. The knight gets his (or her, don't want to misgender) 6+ armor and that's all. That's a nice and healthy 24 wounds. And if the boss fluffs and gets stomped on you can pay the 2cp for another shot. (A foot boss can swing twice with a strat but needs some more effort to actually get him into combat 1st turn.) You can also make him goffs for exploding 6s or evil suns for dat extra speed! (works nicely with a unit of evil sunz stormboyz to eat overwatch.)

Best thing is, the bike boss is only 99 pts.

Finally an ork warboss can feel like one of the most devastating characters out there.

6 deepstriking shockcannon Hive Guard are pretty nice. 6D3 haywire shots that hit on 3’s, mortal wounds on 4’s and 6’s like harlequins, then they shoot again. Averages about 3 unsaved regular wounds, plus the 8-14 or so mortal wounds. Doesn’t take into account the trygon or raveners they pop in with, who can throw some more shots out.

Anyone have the math on 10 blightlords with putrescent and VOTLW and 2 flails?

Got lucky with twenty Wulfen in a 2000 point match. Two squads of five and one squad of ten, my opponent was either cocky or dumb enough to put his Knights on an objective that I’d put near board edges, fifteen Wulfen arrived on the second turn, lucked out on the 9’ double charge and eliminated two while only losing two Wulfen, my opponent turned wimp, called cheese and conceded.
Does three Knights backed by Guard really get to call cheese?

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would a unit of five Chaos Terminators with Combi-Meltas, with Prescience from a Sorcerer, a Chaos Lord in support, Veterans of the Long War, and Endless Cacophony do it?

Probably but you invest basically a Knights worth in suicide terminators.
You also need to cast prescience.
And you need to cripple it enough whilest it probably has a 3+

You could also do a cultist abadon bomb if your desperate.

40 cultists hitting on 4's with full rerolls should get you 60 hits, vets of the long war means wounding on 5's for 20 wounds, and 3+ save means he still fails about 6 to 7 wounds. Then endless canophy to fire again, it wont kill a knight but it will drop it a teir. Sometimes thats all you need.

Still think demons are the way to go if your chaos though.

Necrons can use Doomsday Arks with support to pretty great effect.

Trarch stalker for rerolling 1s, Methodical Destruction for +1 to hit. Any wounds it has left after that can be stripped off with Tesla Immortals pretty easily (also they don't care about your 3++).

Just about every army has methods for dealing with Knights, even the bad ones.

Pushing them off the table works wonders.

Basically, what I'm reading from this thread is "Nope".

Sounds like Slamginus if you can manage to get around his screens and deliver.

And Harlie Bikes w/Doom can do it for about equal points (which is really good).

Everything else listed just doesn't seem to compete with the solo Knight in a Soup army.

Not true, again even though we didnt go into the math bloodletters will crush a knight in cc. They don't come in until turn 2 or 3 when there is an opening (which means you spend your first turn or 2 making that hole) then drop 30 bloodletters and a herald or dp in. Bloodletters get 3d6 charge rerolling charge if failed due to khore loci (take them as a patrol if you can, its worth it for the loci) but assuming some die to overwatch/not all get in i normally get 15 into cc with the knight.

Thats 31 attacks hitting on 2's (rerolling 1's if there is a dp), or 25 hits. Wounding on 5's, 6's are 2 damage each, and if you take the crimson crown those 6's pop additional attacks, all at ap-3. Thats 9 dmg after saves. Then pop the attack again stratagem and pile in again. Should do another 9. 18 wounds is pretty effective, and i am again only assuming half of the 30 made it in.

Or a dp of khorne with skullreaver. That will end a knight quick as well.

Bharring wrote:
Basically, what I'm reading from this thread is "Nope".

Sounds like Slamginus if you can manage to get around his screens and deliver.

And Harlie Bikes w/Doom can do it for about equal points (which is really good).

Everything else listed just doesn't seem to compete with the solo Knight in a Soup army.

I mean, I guess my question here is "how much would you consider to be efficient enough to down a 600 point model using a 6CP on their defenses (1 for the WL trait 3 for Rotate Ion and 2 for the 5+++ vs mortals)?"

Seems like people accept the Harlequin+Doom combo to be efficient, which is 306+306+306+132 for the farseer, or 57% points return in a single round with no CP's spent (that's slight overkill with 3 max squads of harlie bikes but still about right)

For reference here, I've heard many people saying that Primaris marines aren't viable because efficient multi-damage weapons like dissie ravagers exist. Dissie ravagers see 50% points return against Primaris marines standing out of cover and not spending any cp or resources on any kind of defensive buffs.

What I would consider the best Tyranid solution, Hive Guard with shock cannons loaded into Tyrannocytes and rocking a double-shoot stratagem on one squad, appears to cost 236*3+100*3, 59.5% efficient BUT they don't average a full kill, only 21.3 wounds. Less efficient but IMO less chance-based as you're not reliant on getting a WC7 power off through a possible psychic deny, and tyranids do have a good option to impede a single shooter with The Horror.

The Smashcaptain/Smashboss solution is hyperefficient pointswise and if you can draw out the 4cp beforehand in shooting also a pretty good trade CP-wise, given the units usually dont even cost 1/3 of what the knight costs. The hard part is actually getting to combat through what's probably a gnarly screen.

My personal favored chaos solution, the Death Hex+Lascannons, requires me to spend 1cp on cabalistic focus on a terminator sorceror (who I give the +1 to cast trait on when facing a knight or other priority target who must not have an invuln). That gives me +4 to cast meaning death hex goes off over 90% of the time and my opponent has to deny at +4. With no invuln the knight dies to around 900 points of any decent meta anti-tank unit (I just used quadlas hellforged contemptors but you could also use plague crawlers, stratagem'd defiler whatever). So again, around a 1000-1100 point solution to a one-turn kill. Notably however this solution doesn't require my opponent to spend any CP, which is a downside.

Funnily enough given the title of the thread, you know what's bad at killing cawlstellans? Other cawlstellans. When stratted up, the cawlstellan gives a worse points return against itself than unbuffed space marines holding lascannons and firing into the 3++. Guess that's why people still include smashcaptains in those meta lists, huh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(also worth noting here, is the knight's own efficiency in offense. When spending 3cp on order of companions, against a relatively inefficient target (let's say quad-las predators) it kills just shy of 2 in a round of shooting, dealing 282 points of damage, or 47% efficient.

With my orks I prefer 10 tankbusta boyz in a truck. With dakka dakka dakka and the wreckers strategem you can put knights down quickly.

Yeah the only knight I am afraid of is the one with the ion bulkward wl trait and the sanctuary relic. 4++ in cc makes knights difficult to deal with for some armies. Again its why harlies are so good.

As for the needing 3 full squads and a farseer, i dont get your math. I am more than happy doing 16-17 wounds onto a 3++ knight with a single squad and farseers doom. Even if thats not enough charge the 6 harlies into cc with it. They get 3 attacks each, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's (str 4 vs t8) rerolling still because of doom, at ap-1 and 2 damage flat. Thats another 14 hits, 4 wounds, 2 saved from armor, doing another 4 dmg.

I dont do that myself, my goal isnt to nuke the knight in 1 round of combat, my goal is to weaken it to the point where its not a serious threat. If you do kill it, cool. If its down to hitting on 5's, its not as serious a threat as it was.

I didn't think Knights got a inv save in CC, just ranged attacks.

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah the only knight I am afraid of is the one with the ion bulkward wl trait and the sanctuary relic. 4++ in cc makes knights difficult to deal with for some armies. Again its why harlies are so good.

As for the needing 3 full squads and a farseer, i dont get your math. I am more than happy doing 16-17 wounds onto a 3++ knight with a single squad and farseers doom. Even if thats not enough charge the 6 harlies into cc with it. They get 3 attacks each, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's (str 4 vs t8) rerolling still because of doom, at ap-1 and 2 damage flat. Thats another 14 hits, 4 wounds, 2 saved from armor, doing another 4 dmg.

I dont do that myself, my goal isnt to nuke the knight in 1 round of combat, my goal is to weaken it to the point where its not a serious threat. If you do kill it, cool. If its down to hitting on 5's, its not as serious a threat as it was.

My math assumes a few things:

1) An efficient knight kill is a one-round knight kill. Because all meta knights for the most part go House Raven for the order of companions they have access to the Machine Spirit Resurgent 1cp stratagem, which allows them to act as though they were not degraded. IMO if you can't one-round a knight it is more efficient to attack other units in the army unless literally no other targets are presented for your antitank.

2) I am assuming that the knight has a 3++ vs shooting, having used 1cp to gain the 4++ warlord trait, and 3CP to rotate ion shields to a 3++. I also assume against any attack that relies on mortal wounds, the knight will use the 2CP stratagem that gives the knight a 5+ save against mortal wounds for the phase. That's where I get to needing 3 squads of skyweavers with Doom to shoot the knight down in a turn.

The point I'm trying to make here overall is that given the resources the knight must spend to gain the durability it has, people are approaching these anti-knight counters with an unrealistic desire for how efficient they will be able to kill it, especially given that the whole premise of the thread is "what is a counter other than another knight" when you can easily point out that another knight is actually a relatively highly inefficient counter.

Getting above 50% points return in shooting is absurdly efficient, even when you use crazy examples like Dissie Ravagers scything down unprotected intercessors or that very same castellan knight using its offensive stratagem and smashing up units like Predators which are considered highly overcosted. Expecting that level of efficiency and throwing up your hands and yelling "my faction has no way to deal with this!" is ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another example: Let's say you prepared for a knight meta by bringing Snakebite Tankbustas. How many trukks worth with Monster Hunters to bring down the big daddy castellan?

theoretically it would take 1470 points of tankbustas, bomb squigs and trukks to take it out with Monster Hunters up. Smasha guns are a lot better solution, requiring 1162 points, which gets up there with some of the other factions' best answers.

 Elfric wrote:
I didn't think Knights got a inv save in CC, just ranged attacks.

You are wrong. A knight can get 5++ against ranged attacks and against melee with sanctuary. RIS works in the shooting phase and fight phase.

 p5freak wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
I didn't think Knights got a inv save in CC, just ranged attacks.

You are wrong. A knight can get 5++ against ranged attacks and against melee with sanctuary. RIS works in the shooting phase and fight phase.

While true, the fact that a single model cannot have 2 relics and the strength of Cawl's Wrath and other relic options means in a competitive setting you will very rarely see Sanctuary in a single-knight list.

If there were an event that let players tailor their relics rather than select them in the game, I'd think you might occasionally see Sanctuary picked up in matchups where you know your opponent is relying on a smash character to down your knight. You might also see it on a Gallant over the Paragon Gauntlet. But damn is that a big opportunity cost to gain a 4++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In any kind of competitive tactical discussion it is not very useful to assume that a counter-strategy is going to be ineffective because of the existence of a possible theoretical build that is non-meta.

You might as well say that counters to knights won't work because knight players will just bring an allied Black Templars detachment to get the auto-deny on 4+ stratagem.

If you can keep them alive, Ryza Kataphron Destroyers.

How are plasmadrops? Plasma guns in some form overcharging after coming from reserves?

SW has some choises for deepstriking plasma. Deep strike terminators, drop pod or outflank stratagem. Plasma units are long fangs, primaris hellblasters or wolf guards.

Thoughts?

I wasn't saying that, i was saying the only build that bothers me is that one.

Meta wise i see why you want it nuked t1 now and not just dropped a teir or 2. I still dont think 3 squads of harlies are needed, 2 will do the job just fine unless your building in redundancy, which again i can understand that.

Eldar soup looks to be an easy contender for this then, harliquin skyweavers, farseer w/ doom, throw a hemlock in for jinx, finish with cabal of the black hand ravagers to get access to the agents of vect "nope" strat, that should be enough to kill anything and be an effective force vs almost anything that could come at it. Use remaining points to sprinkle in some troops for objective holding and making batallions as needed.

Othet thoughts though....

Tzaangor bombs can do a number to that knight as well then, its a chr which tzaangors love to pound on. Not sure of the math requirements on that one though.

the_scotsman wrote:

If there were an event that let players tailor their relics rather than select them in the game, I'd think you might occasionally see Sanctuary picked up in matchups where you know your opponent is relying on a smash character to down your knight. You might also see it on a Gallant over the Paragon Gauntlet. But damn is that a big opportunity cost to gain a 4++.
.

I think most tournaments following ITC rules allow you to select relics / traits on a per-matchup basis. My AM/IK list has a Knight Gallant as the only big knight (some helverins too) but yea, if I see you have 3 smashcaptains I'm definitely taking Sanctuary. If I have to blow 3 CP to fight twice (Terryn Stratagem) to finish your knight off so be it, I need that 4++ in melee.

"How are plasmadrops?"
Came up last page. A 10-man in rapidfire range does 4.44 wounds to a 3++ T8 Knight.

DA can use the strat to get that up to 6.67.

Some forms of reroll are possible, but that's not a great return for a suicide unit.

 Valentine009 wrote:
If you can keep them alive, Ryza Kataphron Destroyers.

except you wont any competant opponent not running a pure hoard will kill them if they don't then you've lucked out its not a strategy

U02dah4 wrote:

 Valentine009 wrote:
If you can keep them alive, Ryza Kataphron Destroyers.

except you wont any competant opponent not running a pure hoard will kill them if they don't then you've lucked out its not a strategy

I just looked those up since I've never seen them. Somewhat impressive firepower (though D6 shots is pretty random) but damn, 48 points per model for a T5, 3W model with a 4" save? Most Knight lists pack Armiger Helverins... those look almost purpose made to eat Kataphron destroyers alive. They're far too expensive to be a viable counter. Hell, even with their firepower, you'd need to score 42 hits with overcharged Kataphrons on a Castellan to kill it through it's 3++ shield. Given that they have BS4, and average 3.5 shots per model, and wound on a 4+, you would need 48 Kataphron Destroyers firing on a Castellan to kill it on average.... or 2304 points worth of them.

Your missing that we have 2 strats that can boost it to 2+bs we reroll1's to hit ryza then has strat that gives it +1 ro W and +1 damage or 8 to 1 shot it through a 3++

We can also give it a 5++

Of course one that happens and you know what they do whats your prime target

U02dah4 wrote:
Your missing that we have 2 strats that can boost it to 2+bs we reroll1's to hit ryza then has strat that gives it +1 ro W and +1 damage or 8 to 1 shot it through a 3++

We can also give it a 5++

Of course one that happens and you know what they do whats your prime target

Ah. That makes it significantly better. I was unfamiliar with them entirely.

Admech in general has a huge weakness vs. helvarins bc many of our best units are 6ws. it's why ive started bringing las Contemptors in my soup.

the_scotsman wrote:


My personal favored chaos solution, the Death Hex+Lascannons, requires me to spend 1cp on cabalistic focus on a terminator sorceror (who I give the +1 to cast trait on when facing a knight or other priority target who must not have an invuln). That gives me +4 to cast meaning death hex goes off over 90% of the time and my opponent has to deny at +4. With no invuln the knight dies to around 900 points of any decent meta anti-tank unit (I just used quadlas hellforged contemptors but you could also use plague crawlers, stratagem'd defiler whatever). So again, around a 1000-1100 point solution to a one-turn kill. Notably however this solution doesn't require my opponent to spend any CP, which is a downside.

Apologies, and I think this is a super stupid thing, but for whatever asinine reason hellforged contemptors don't have access to twin-lascannons. I've essentially sent a message to Forge World about it every few months, and nothing has changed. Given how terrible they are at both being consistent and also failing to proofread and edit after the fact, it could be intentional for all we know. Or not!

Unless of course they've amended the wargear list at some point to include lascannons and I never noticed it.

Wow, I did not know that plasma drop was so bad vs them.

From a theoretical perspective, if a rhino with combi melta wolf guards pops out near a knight, how many wounds do they do on a 10 man squad?

Also, consider non Castellan solo knight can be even more efficient. Say Imperium soup brings one solo Gallant. That thing can take warlord trait to give it 4++ and then take the relic that gives it a 2+ armour save.

It is essentially close to unkillable by small arms, and only need 1 cp to raise ion shields. In close combat, most things won't have -4 AP and so it will generally still have a 5+ save (even against power fists).

And its not even 400 points. There is no way you can bring 400 points worth of any kind of shooting and hope to kill it in one round.

Also, I tried Daemon Prince with skull reaver. A Gallant actually has a potentially longer reach because it can do full tilt to give it a 12 inch plus advance plus charge. Another point, even a Khorn Daemon Prince who gets in the charge needs to get lucky to kill the Gallant in one turn. Otherwise, when he hits back, good chance that Daemon prince will get stomped to death. And you can only have one skull reaver relic.

My DP with skull reaver only managed to do 12 hp. Good thing that Gallant was already down 12 hp, so 12 was all I needed. You guys can math it out, but I don't think the chances of a skull reaver wielding DP killing a knight on one turn is that high. Not unless you use fury of Khorne to strike again.

And if you can use fury of khorne to strike again, he can use 2cp to interrupt to kill you before that. And dropping a knight to even single digit HP tiers is irrelevant. Its part of imperial soup, he has tons of CP, so he just needs to pay 1 cp to bring it up to max tier again.

The most ironic thing is that after spending so much effort to kill a single Gallant that game, it blew up and killed its points worth in an epic explosion lol. (My DP was already 180 points and there were other stuff nearby.)

 Niiai wrote:
Wow, I did not know that plasma drop was so bad vs them.

From a theoretical perspective, if a rhino with combi melta wolf guards pops out near a knight, how many wounds do they do on a 10 man squad?

Are you asking how much damage a rhino full of combi-melta wolf guards shoots at a Knight? 10 melta shots will deal like 12 damage, that's about it. The 3++ invuln blocks a LOT of fire.

If you can get null zone or Death hex off, its a lot better. Removes that invulnerable. But this assumes you are in range to get it off, and it goes cast, and it doesn't get denied. I managed that one super lucky time when I brought a black legion Abaddon full lascannon type of army against imperium soup with Castellan.

Jump pack sorceror flew 12 inches, cast warptime on himself, flew another 12 inches and advanced. Brought me just in range to cast death hex and it went off. But here's the thing, I still couldn't kill that thing even with like 18 or was it 20 lascannons in my army after the death hex removed its unvul because some were out of range. But I managed to bring it down to a few HP and it died on turn 2.

It was an army specifically tailored to beat Castellan and everything went right. If just one thing had gone wrong and I failed to get death hex off, I would have lost the sorceror and there are no second tries with such a strategy.

And you can be sure the next time I bring a death hex sorceror, my friend will be really careful and aware about that threat too.

I'm never in a rush to kill any IK other than a castellan. The other I can typically grind out with smites and melee. And rate of fire weapons S5+. IK shooting sucks other than the castellan.

A full squad of TH/SS Terminators average .5 x .5 x .83 x 3 x 21 = 13 wounds on a Knight. Prior to the fight-twice stratagem, and without any command buffs. Very solid, you just got to get 'em there.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Also, consider non Castellan solo knight can be even more efficient. Say Imperium soup brings one solo Gallant. That thing can take warlord trait to give it 4++ and then take the relic that gives it a 2+ armour save.

I always do that when i play my gallant single knight. I was once attacked by buffed PBs, which could do up to 4 damage per hit. My 2+ sv really helped against those AP0 attacks.

I'm always much less concerned when I see a Gallant, because it's so easy to impede them.

The fact that they aren't screened makes the highly efficient counter-strategies like psychic power invul stripping and smash characters much easier to deliver to them, and a single cultist/rhino/nurgling/whatever can easily stonewall their movement for a turn by parking 3.01" away from the center of their base. Remember, they only get to move over infantry when falling back. just DONT make the mistake of moving right up to them because you will eat a heroic intervene.

Theoretically, 17 full Conscript squads (510 Guardsmen in total) should be able to kill a regular Knight during one shooting phase, considering they are all in RF range and half of them get FRFSRF.

24 Infantry Squads (240 Guardsmen) in case they are all in RF and have FRFSRF.
'
16 Infantry Squads if they were Cadians, in RF range, ordered with FRFSRF, buffed by 'Overlapping Fields of Fire' stratagem
12 Veteran Squads if they were Cadians, in RF range, ordered with FRFSRF, buffed by 'Overlapping Fields of Fire' stratagem

No special weapons, just Lasguns alone.

Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

The biggest struggle is their ability to heroically intervene (as they are usually Characters with exalted court strat) and then fall back thru infantry in their own turn. I do agree however that they are quite easy to screen if you know to keep away from them enough to prevent a heroic intervene. Screening them is quite straightforward as they do not have good ability to clear more than 6-7 GEQ infantry with their stomps.

If you do have a flyer though you can really give them hell. They can't hit you, can't move through you, and your base is wide as hell as well. Every time I play my Hemlock against a non-fly target that needs to move, it ends up HATING that thing by the end of the game because I can just universally park right in front of it and stop its movement.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

The biggest struggle is their ability to heroically intervene (as they are usually Characters with exalted court strat) and then fall back thru infantry in their own turn. I do agree however that they are quite easy to screen if you know to keep away from them enough to prevent a heroic intervene. Screening them is quite straightforward as they do not have good ability to clear more than 6-7 GEQ infantry with their stomps.

If you do have a flyer though you can really give them hell. They can't hit you, can't move through you, and your base is wide as hell as well. Every time I play my Hemlock against a non-fly target that needs to move, it ends up HATING that thing by the end of the game because I can just universally park right in front of it and stop its movement.

Eh, if you take a House Terryn Knight Gallant, it can fight twice, for 30 stomps, hitting on 2+, killing on 2+. Yes, it costs CP, but you're not going to tie that thing down in close combat with a tarpit unit. As for parking a flyer in front of it... yea, that would be annoying, but can't it move around the flyer? You'd reduce it's charge range by what, 6" or so, since it needs to spend that to get around you? Full Tilt would still give it a pretty big threat range.

I haven't played it yet, but I think it's going to be a bit harder to counter than you're making it sound. The main reason I have it is to draw fire from my Tank Commanders and Helverins, so they can kill big threats while the Gallant draws fire. You can slow it down, sure, but if you focus on my other tanks and let the Gallant get to you it's gonna cause a lot of problems.

I decided to go with a Gallant + 2 Armiger Helverins instead of a single Castellan, because at least to me it seems harder to counter for Eldar players. Skyweavers with Haywire launchers will tear a Castellan's donkey-cave out through it's face immediately, while at least with the Gallant/Helverins, if you take down the Gallant the Helverins can open up on the Skyweavers with Skyreaper Protocols to try to kill a few of them right back.

I'm looking forward to testing it out though.

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

yes, havee your infantry, jetboke biker and other flying shooting unit hide on 2nd level of terrain and you are all good. The only concern would be if it blow up.

 Horst wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Gallants are big models, with huge bases and no fly. They can be screened and have lots of counters, you don't need to one round them.

The biggest struggle is their ability to heroically intervene (as they are usually Characters with exalted court strat) and then fall back thru infantry in their own turn. I do agree however that they are quite easy to screen if you know to keep away from them enough to prevent a heroic intervene. Screening them is quite straightforward as they do not have good ability to clear more than 6-7 GEQ infantry with their stomps.

If you do have a flyer though you can really give them hell. They can't hit you, can't move through you, and your base is wide as hell as well. Every time I play my Hemlock against a non-fly target that needs to move, it ends up HATING that thing by the end of the game because I can just universally park right in front of it and stop its movement.

Eh, if you take a House Terryn Knight Gallant, it can fight twice, for 30 stomps, hitting on 2+, killing on 2+. Yes, it costs CP, but you're not going to tie that thing down in close combat with a tarpit unit. As for parking a flyer in front of it... yea, that would be annoying, but can't it move around the flyer? You'd reduce it's charge range by what, 6" or so, since it needs to spend that to get around you? Full Tilt would still give it a pretty big threat range.

I haven't played it yet, but I think it's going to be a bit harder to counter than you're making it sound. The main reason I have it is to draw fire from my Tank Commanders and Helverins, so they can kill big threats while the Gallant draws fire. You can slow it down, sure, but if you focus on my other tanks and let the Gallant get to you it's gonna cause a lot of problems.

I decided to go with a Gallant + 2 Armiger Helverins instead of a single Castellan, because at least to me it seems harder to counter for Eldar players. Skyweavers with Haywire launchers will tear a Castellan's donkey-cave out through it's face immediately, while at least with the Gallant/Helverins, if you take down the Gallant the Helverins can open up on the Skyweavers with Skyreaper Protocols to try to kill a few of them right back.

I'm looking forward to testing it out though.

With the size of the knights base and the size of the flyer's base, a knight with a flyer directly 1" in front of it can only manage to move 4" forward in a turn, and that's if you don't have a piece of terrain it can't move through to pincer it against (which is, in my experience, very easy to do).

You aren't stalling the knight by keeping it in close combat. it can fall back and move over infantry. You're impeding its movement across the board by sitting things in front of it. if your opponent is actually playing by the rules of movement, which I find mooooooost people don't actually do, because they move their vehicles over ruins and within 1" of enemy models to get around them and pivot their bases for free, etc, then it is very easy to stop things from moving with your own things.

Because so many people casually break those rules, those tactics are largely ignored in many playgroups.

There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

 Niiai wrote:
There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

No part of the base can move farther than the movement value of the model.

Just for the lulz a genestealer cult psyker with mind control, especially if allied with units that give it a LD malus. Make the big bad dominus smash his cp battery and/or escorting knight and simultaniously waste a shieldbreaker (might even cancel out enemy using it on you if fire one per turn is interpreted strictly)

The best counter in my book is the Shadowsword.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

No part of the base can move farther than the movement value of the model.

Where is this stated? Usually you measure a model movement from the closest possition to where it was to the furthest position to where it went. Now yiu have to stay 1" away as well.

 Niiai wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
There are no rules for pivoting bases in tvis edition, except flyers that has to turn a maximum of 90 degrees.

But it is true that you have to stay 1" from enenies.

No part of the base can move farther than the movement value of the model.

Where is this stated? Usually you measure a model movement from the closest possition to where it was to the furthest position to where it went. Now yiu have to stay 1" away as well.

Rulebook, p. 177 under movement: "A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this."

Ok. But they would just need to never pivot then.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The best counter in my book is the Shadowsword.

Unless the Knight is a Castellan and fires first. Volcano Lance should do about 9 wounds and Cawl's Wrath will do about the same. That will knock the Shadowsword down to its lowest profile even before the secondary weapons or other units shoot (add the Raven stratagem and the Castellan can probably one-shot the Shadowsword). The Shadowsword is good but is seriously hampered by the lack of Invulnerable save. A Castellan with RIS should survive a hit from a Shadowsword without dropping a profile if the Shadowsword shoots first. If the Castellan shoots first, the Shadowsword will be lucky to shoot at all.

That is why Castellans are the prime choice for Imperial Soup, not Shadowswords.

Mono guard doesnt really have a good answer its go first or lose because their answers are vulnerable to high AP

A scorpion with a farseer with guide and doom does just under 19 wounds according to mathhammer, admittedly that's over 800 pts though.

For mono guard, you just need to sink a ton of points into it. Something like 3 TCs, 2 bassies, a manticore, and someone with old grudes running cadian. Even then I think it's a few wounds shy. Maybe add another bassie.

kingheff wrote:
A scorpion with a farseer with guide and doom does just under 19 wounds according to mathhammer, admittedly that's over 800 pts though.

I though that craftworld eldar would use 3 fire prisms, Farseer, and a jinx caster to nuke knights cost effectively.

For what it's worth, my ANGRY MARINES intend to fight Knights with:

1. Massed Bolter fire
2. Shoving an untargetable Guilliman down a Knight's throat.

I have the tools to clear screens, make holes, and get there.

*disclaimer*

This is conjecture at this point, because I'm still building my first 500 points, but the army was put together by Hulksmash who in turn is one of the most formidable players on the tournament scene.

Perhaps the most ironic counter is an inquisitor with Dominate. It's not so much that you kill the Knight, it's that he becomes part of your army every psychic phase.

 Karhedron wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The best counter in my book is the Shadowsword.

Unless the Knight is a Castellan and fires first. Volcano Lance should do about 9 wounds and Cawl's Wrath will do about the same. That will knock the Shadowsword down to its lowest profile even before the secondary weapons or other units shoot (add the Raven stratagem and the Castellan can probably one-shot the Shadowsword). The Shadowsword is good but is seriously hampered by the lack of Invulnerable save. A Castellan with RIS should survive a hit from a Shadowsword without dropping a profile if the Shadowsword shoots first. If the Castellan shoots first, the Shadowsword will be lucky to shoot at all.

That is why Castellans are the prime choice for Imperial Soup, not Shadowswords.

Shadowsword is designed to fight at 120" distance, so, if you put 3 tables together and set the two confronting armies 100" apart. The Shadowsword will outranges the Castellan Knight, for the 1st turn or two at least.

I've been using a Terminator Captain with the Shield eternal and Imperium's sword WLT (Reroll charge +1 attack on the charge) and buffed with MoH to make him T5, and Str10 and 6 attacks on the charge. Hitting on 3's rerolling 1s. Then wounding on 3 (I run him as Salamanders so rerolling a wound here). 3 Cp to fight again.

Insanely durable against anything knights have except deathgrip, alway be careful of deathgrip. and can put out a maximum of 36 wounds a turn to a knight

Averages out to 15 wounds if I did my math correctly (any chapter) but with 2 rerolls to wound (1 for each time he fights as Salamanders) and the CP reroll one rounding a knight is not outside the realm of possibility

Orks would also stand quite a good choice in taking down an IK. I saw a batrep yesterday where 2 units of Tankbusters (one buffed by "more dakka") plus one squad of Kustom Mega Cannon killed a Knight Valiant with 4++ with almost no pressure.

Why are so many people getting Skyweaver stats wrong?

It's S4 so only causes a normal wound on a 6, 4s and 5s just do a mortal wound. With Doom, it's still an effective weapon for taking off a ton of wounds from the knight. If the knight is Mechanicus, he's going to play the 5+ save vs Mortal Wound strat to eliminate 1/3 of those wounds, but Questoris knights are SOL, they don't get that strat.

I personally go 6 skyweavers, 2 hemlocks, 2 prisms. Should drop any knight in one turn if Doom/Jinx successfully cast.

I would think that for Orks the Bad Moons Loota bomb would work well. Classic tactics would be to take a unit of 15 and a unit of 10, use "Mob Up" to make a single unit of 25, use "More Dakka" and "Showin' Off" to make them nasty. On average you would get 100 shots that hit on 5's (and 5+'s generate an additional shot), and those shots do 2 damage apiece. Might not kill a Knight outright (but it would if you rolled a 3 for the Lootas' number of shots), but weight of dice should help offset the poor BS of Ork shooting. Plus you could use Grot Shields to keep them alive to do it again next turn.

Now, turning my attention to armies I actually play:

For Dark Angels, pretty much any large plasma-equipped unit should do some work with the Weapons from the Dark Age strat. Hellblasters, Inceptors, even Ravenwing Black Knights could do a lot of damage. Hellblasters would be especially nasty since they would likely be next to Azrael for full rerolls to hit, and a 4++ against any return fire from the Knight. And if any should go down, there will likely be a banner nearby to let them get one last shot at the Knight.

For Tau, the T'au Sept strat (Focused Fire) should really help with killing a Knight. Even HBC Riptides will be able to wear down a Knight with that, and they don't have super high AP values that will be wasted against a Knight's invul save. Tau also have the Stormsurge, with its D-missiles (good for generating those ever-so-effective mortal wounds) and the Pulse Driver Cannon (long range weapon that wounds Knights on 3's and does D6 damage per failed save is pretty good). I might also recommend the tried-and-true quad fusion Coldstar, but the good AP of its Fusions is wasted on a Knight.

For Chaos, most of the solutions have already been mentioned. Khorne Prince with Skullreaver, Tsons with mortal wound spam, buffed Plaguebearers, and others are decent solutions. Bloodletters might be the best though.

For Space Wolves, I think getting a character with the Armor of Russ would be very useful, especially if fighting a Gallant. Pretty much anything with a Thunder Hammer is good against Knights. Wulfen are especially deadly to them. Long Fangs, with the strats and special rules they have, could be really good for Knight hunting as well.

For Wolves, TH/SS Wolf Guard buffed by Arjac and a Wolf Priest (with Armour of Russ) should do pretty well. You can teleport them in but that is risking a lot on a 2D6" charge roll.

If it is a Gallant then you can just it come to you and then beat it down.

If you need to hunt a Knight down, you can fit 6 Termies + the buffing characters in a Stormwolf which should ensure delivery and still costs less than a Castellan. 6 Wolf Guard alone should do ~22 wounds to Knight so there is a good chance of Arjac and the Priest finishing it off completely.

I nuked a Gallant last night using 12 tankbustas with 3 squigs. Da jumped them into position and tapped moar dakka and showin off and managed to strip 21 wounds of it even after it popped rotate shields (it had already taken 3 wounds from smite).
Worked pretty well I have to say although the TBs got obliterated the next turn (18" range is very short).

operkoi wrote:

kingheff wrote:
A scorpion with a farseer with guide and doom does just under 19 wounds according to mathhammer, admittedly that's over 800 pts though.

I though that craftworld eldar would use 3 fire prisms, Farseer, and a jinx caster to nuke knights cost effectively.

The nice thing with prisms is that they buff themselves via the linked fire strategy. But even with the re-rolls the prisms do roughly six damage to a 3++ knight, not a great investment for nearly 500 pts.

kingheff wrote:

operkoi wrote:

kingheff wrote:
A scorpion with a farseer with guide and doom does just under 19 wounds according to mathhammer, admittedly that's over 800 pts though.

I though that craftworld eldar would use 3 fire prisms, Farseer, and a jinx caster to nuke knights cost effectively.

The nice thing with prisms is that they buff themselves via the linked fire strategy. But even with the re-rolls the prisms do roughly six damage to a 3++ knight, not a great investment for nearly 500 pts.

Jinx will boost that to about 9 but I agree that the RIS will make it difficult to force through the volume of damage required for any shooting attack that relies on AP. You either need some way to bypass the Ion Shield (MWs) or you need to hit it with massed Ap0/-1 attacks, or you need to hit it with something hefty in close combat.

Most armies have access to at least one of those tactics.

The reason knights have shifted the meta is that they tend to neuter conventional anti-tank tactics such as lascannons, plasma drops etc. This was probalby necessary as I suspect Knights would have been unplayable as a stand-alone faction otherwise but it also means players have to think outside the box somewhat to deal with them

Chaos is relatively blessed against Knights depeding on the build.

Sorcerers have a lot of good stratagems to play against Knights, namely Death Hex, and with Thousand Sons they can get pretty decent casting bonuses to help Death Hex go off. Even without TS, most players will use a Command Point to help Death Hex go off. Deny the witch is definitely a thing though, and can slow your roll, but its a good option to have.

With a bit of luck, Death Hex + Prescience + Veterans of the Long War + Endless Cacophony + a nearby Lord or DP can put a *lot* of wounds downrange. Obliterators being the usual target, although Bikers / Termies with Plas or Melta are a decent choice, as are Laser Havocs.

As others have mentioned, Khorne Daemon Bombs can do a lot of damage as well once screening units have been taken care of.

If you can clear screens a Defiler can do some real damage vs a Knight with Daemon Forge and Prescience (prescience can let you trigger DTTFE on a 5+). You can also slingshot the crab engine with Warptime.

 Niiai wrote:
Ok. But they would just need to never pivot then.

Right. My point is, most people totally ignore this rule when moving awkwardly-large base sized models around, and it artificially increases their maneuverability. If you park a 32mm infantry base in the middle of a superheavy base it's got to move its WHOLE long-ass base around that thing to get around it.

40k is a game where people will complain about someone measuring sloppily and taking an extra .01" but people will pivot and maneuver their knight and cheat an extra 4" of movement and nobody cares.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Ok. But they would just need to never pivot then.

Right. My point is, most people totally ignore this rule when moving awkwardly-large base sized models around, and it artificially increases their maneuverability. If you park a 32mm infantry base in the middle of a superheavy base it's got to move its WHOLE long-ass base around that thing to get around it.

40k is a game where people will complain about someone measuring sloppily and taking an extra .01" but people will pivot and maneuver their knight and cheat an extra 4" of movement and nobody cares.

I tried to avoid this in a game I played yesterday, and it basically involved my Knight doing a lot of awkward moonwalking around, lol.

 Horst wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Ok. But they would just need to never pivot then.

Right. My point is, most people totally ignore this rule when moving awkwardly-large base sized models around, and it artificially increases their maneuverability. If you park a 32mm infantry base in the middle of a superheavy base it's got to move its WHOLE long-ass base around that thing to get around it.

40k is a game where people will complain about someone measuring sloppily and taking an extra .01" but people will pivot and maneuver their knight and cheat an extra 4" of movement and nobody cares.

I tried to avoid this in a game I played yesterday, and it basically involved my Knight doing a lot of awkward moonwalking around, lol.

for visual/immersion purposes I'll just do a 180 degree flip (because facing doesn't matter in 8th) and treat it as if he didn't move.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just ran some numbers on the haywire weapon and I don't see it doing much to a knight. Are people counting on rolling 6's to bring it down?

As a side question, does it wound vehicles on a 4+ or only on the normal chart? If you roll a 4 and it normally wouldn't wound a target does the target still suffer a mortal wound?

Haywire will inflict 1 mortal wound on every 4s and 5s rolled for to wound rolling, regardless whether it can actually wound the target on normal to wound chart or not, and will deal D3 mortal wounds in addition to the wound inflicted by achieving the normal wound chart.