So I got the codex today and there is a host of new lore in there, it describes how cults can take over whole sectors if something happens to the hive fleet being guided towards it, it also notes how it may even take centuries or more for the nids to arrive at the world. Plus there is a story where cultists are fully aware of what the nids will do to them and are eager for when it's their turn to be killed by them. So yeah...go to town with your cults at the end of the day.
Still this topic is about tiamet and what they are building. The nid codex explained that they are calling cults to the world and now we are getting a small answer as to why and they are not being called to be killed. This was the last entry on the "timeline" part of the codex.
Here is excerpt
Tiamet Rising
"Ziaphoria, the repugnant and anomalous jungle planet claimed by Hive Fleet Tiamet, becomes a site of a disturbing new development in the curse of tyrannoforming, the hyper-accelerated biological process that overcomes the prey worlds of the Hive Mind. There the conquering hive fleets have constructed vast psychic resonators of fleshy, encephalitic material - some of the size of mountains, some large enough to cover entire continents.
The world forms the end point of a vast pilgrimage of genestealer cultists from the nearby Heinrich's march. Led by a blind prophet known as the Conduit, they depart from a world plagued by the Dark Gods, plying the stars to eventually land upon Ziaphoria's pulsating crust. Those who touch the corrupted earth with their bare flesh are instantly bought in thrall to it - an convince their brethren to go back into space as missionaries, carrying the Creed of Tiamet to as many imperial worlds as possible. They are first of dozens of interstellar pilgrimages that seek out Ziaphoria, and in doing so, add to its power. The Tyranids of Hive Fleet Tiamet defend the planet so ferociously it is declared Quaratine Extremis and abandoned entirely by the Imperium.
Only the Deathwatch of nearby Haltmoat and Inquisitor Kryptman, who comes out of exile to join them - have any inkling of the threat posed by the immense psychic resonator of Tiamet. The theories they discuss long into the night are so wild, and the other threats facing the Imperium so dire, that they are given little credence by the wider Inquisition."
So...I will start with my own thoughts which is all speculation by the way. It's obvious to me they are building a beacon, most likely to call the true face of the Tyranids. The interesting part to me was the fact Tiamet called the Genestealer Cultists, no to nom them but to essentially turn them into heralds, adding to the beacon since they allow them to leave the world.
Plus Kryptman is coming back into the plot that is clear going by GSC and the nid codex, I recall someone who attended LVO recently reported that GW are going to be making changes to the 40k setting, I wonder if this is a part of that? Or a hint? Who knows the Tyranids we see now might be only hunting dogs or animals of whatever is in charge of them.
If you remember the Silent King left the galaxy and came back stating the nids are the true threat and then went on a spree to wake up tomb worlds. Maybe this plot line will be developed with the Necrons as well?
Edit:I went back to the nid codex, this was the original entry on the Tiamet page. So the GSC codex it tells us what happened to the people, so Tiamet is calling GSC and then sending them away, but they kill and nom everyone else.
Here is the extract
Call to the Void
"Upon the world of Heinrich's March, worshippers of the Dark gods work their tortured slaves to death as they attempt to erect a monolithic ziggurat in honour of their foul patrons. A new and hidden cult propagates admist the persecuted masses: the Choir of the Void. it's leader, the blind prophet known as the Conduit, preaches that a savior race from beyond the stars awaits them in a far-off place, a paradise planet where they will find salvation. In a great uprising, millions of slaves overwhelm their masters and commander several dozen cargo hulks. The armada of the faithful makes for the nearby Tiamet System, guided by the visions of the Conduit."
Editosting the whole timeline together.
Spoiler:
Tyranids 8th edition
A nightmare unearthed
Far out on the northern edge of the galaxy lies the Tiamet System. This unremarkable region is home to one of the Hive Mind's most disturbing secrets, the truth of which is only now beginning to emerge...
Call to the Void
"Upon the world of Heinrich's March, worshippers of the Dark gods work their tortured slaves to death as they attempt to erect a monolithic ziggurat in honour of their foul patrons. A new and hidden cult propagates admist the persecuted masses: the Choir of the Void. it's leader, the blind prophet known as the Conduit, preaches that a savior race from beyond the stars awaits them in a far-off place, a paradise planet where they will find salvation. In a great uprising, millions of slaves overwhelm their masters and commander several dozen cargo hulks. The armada of the faithful makes for the nearby Tiamet System, guided by the visions of the Conduit."
Ominous Reports
More and more reports of missing ships and lost fleets drift in to Watch Fortress Haltmoat. The common denominator in each of these cases is that the vessels were last reported in the vicinity of the Tiamet System, far from safe haven. Watch Commander Vilnus orders an immediate survey of the area.
Dread Discovery
Kill team Gjynheim departs from Haltmoat to investigate the reports of missing trade fleets near the Tiamet system. (Lexicanum notes Tiamet are gathering ships for some reason.) The Deathwatch drift in-system unnoticed, and land upon Ziaphoria. There, they discover the xenos super-structure that covers the planet's largest continent. When the vast device pulses, sending a tsunami of psychic energy rolling across the planet, the Kill Team's Librarian suffers a catastrophic cranial rupture.
His screams alert nearby Tyranids, and soon the remaining battle-brothers are surrounded by swarming xenos. Before he and his remaining battle-brothers are torn apart, Watch Sergeant Gjunheim manages to send one final vox transmission to the team's orbiting Corvus Blackstar, warning of the nightmare his men have uncovered.
The Butcher of Octarius
Haltmoat receives an unexpected guest - the exiled Inquisitor Kryptman. Watch Commander Vilnus agrees to an audience with the outcast, who has his own grim theories regarding the mysterious Hive Fleet Tiamet. Together, the two begin to formulate a plan that will see whatever the Tyranids are creating utterly obliterated.
Genestealer Cults 8th edition(The choir of the void was not mentioned at all in 7th)
Tiamet Rising
"Ziaphoria, the repugnant and anomalous jungle planet claimed by Hive Fleet Tiamet, becomes a site of a disturbing new development in the curse of tyrannoforming, the hyper-accelerated biological process that overcomes the prey worlds of the Hive Mind. There the conquering hive fleets have constructed vast psychic resonators of fleshy, encephalitic material - some of the size of mountains, some large enough to cover entire continents.
The world forms the end point of a vast pilgrimage of genestealer cultists from the nearby Heinrich's march. Led by a blind prophet known as the Conduit, they depart from a world plagued by the Dark Gods, plying the stars to eventually land upon Ziaphoria's pulsating crust. Those who touch the corrupted earth with their bare flesh are instantly bought in thrall to it - and convince their brethren to go back into space as missionaries, carrying the Creed of Tiamet to as many imperial worlds as possible. They are first of dozens of interstellar pilgrimages that seek out Ziaphoria, and in doing so, add to its power. The Tyranids of Hive Fleet Tiamet defend the planet so ferociously it is declared Quaratine Extremis and abandoned entirely by the Imperium.
Only the Deathwatch of nearby Haltmoat and Inquisitor Kryptman, who comes out of exile to join them - have any inkling of the threat posed by the immense psychic resonator of Tiamet. The theories they discuss long into the night are so wild, and the other threats facing the Imperium so dire, that they are given little credence by the wider Inquisition."
So there are theories this could be a beacon or an anti-warp weapon. Since it causes Eldar and psykers to explode due to the psychic shockwaves that pulse across the world. I assume the Conduit is a Magus, he seems to be fine and those GSC who journey to the world.
Now since the prophets name is conduit I will bring up the defination again.
A channel for conveying water or other fluid.
‘nearby springs supplied the conduit which ran into the brewery’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1 A person or organization that acts as a channel for the transmission of something.
‘as an actor you have to be a conduit for other people's words’
More example sentences
2A tube or trough for protecting electric wiring.
‘the gas pipe should not be close to any electrical conduit’
mass noun ‘the cable must be protected by conduit’
So perhaps the hive mind is using them to help guide the fleet to the galaxy or perhaps the hive mind wishes to channel itself through the conduit? Plus the extract notes that the pilgrims are the first among many.
Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
Well Tiamet is doing...something. Looking back at Tiamet page and in light of this new extract this is looking like a plot line. I think this is pretty hamfisted.
"Far out on the northern edge of the galaxy lies the Tiamet System. This unremarkable region is home to one of the Hive Mind's most disturbing secrets, the truth of which is only now beginning to emerge..."
So we now know that Tiamet/Hive mind is not eating the GSC.
So their current fluff is
1.Guiding GSC to the planet and sending them away as heralds after they touch the ground. This new entry answers the question of WHY they are calling them, they are not turning them into biomass or killing them for trespassing like other races.
2.Gather biomass to complete the structure hence why they have been seen in the Segmentum Obscurus and they are capturing ships around the Tiamet system.
Edit:Well...the GSC codex makes not that the cults can take over whole sectors. If the Patriarch can't sense a hive fleet he will just launch the uprising anyway hoping to draw their attention, he will keep attacking and expanding until the Tyranids hurry along to them.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
Funny enough a poster on bolter and chainsword mentioned something similar, have a part of the true face of the nids pop up and it's the necrons who then step up to hold the tide. Honestly after this I am even wondering if the true nids are even bug-like and monstrous.
Ghaz wrote: It's either a Tyranid version of the blackstone pylons that were on Cadia or it's an anti-daemon measure on a galactic scale.
Possibly but the question is why aren't they nomming the GSC? They are calling them to the planet, they need biomass for the structure but instead of eating the hybrids they bond with it and then the nids allow them to leave. Tiamet eats and attacks anyone else who go near the world.
Cultists are Tyranids so it wouldn't be a case of something others couldn't carry. However its more likely that what they could be taking away is able to spread and/or influence through the newly founded Cults.
Cultists are showing that Tyranids have game plans beyond purely nomming things. Cultists are a very advanced disruption and terrorist weapon that allows the Tyranid Hives to cause massive damage deep behind enemy lines. To infect worlds and systems; to leave damage that will scar generations of people and spread and infect the core of their enemies.
Cultists that arise and manage to take over whole systems are, at best, causing huge disruption and shutting down systems for the Imperium. Even if a Hive Fleet doesn't come to consume the Cult has done its work in weakening the giant of the Imperium.
The Tiamat structure world is still a mystery; its true purpose is still unknown. That said it appears that it doesn't seem to be a staging ground; or if it is then its got additional functions built into it.
One thought might be that its a huge anti-chaos beacon - a huge Shadow in the Warp generator. The idea being that Tyranids presume if they start to take the upper hand too much then the Warp, which relies upon non-Tyranid life in the Galaxy, might well unit. Orks and Chaos are both influenced heavily by Warp Gods and both have presented themselves as powerful opposing forces to Tyranids. The Tyranids might well be building this so that as they gain more ground the enemy has its ability to rise to counter hindered. A huge Shadow in the Warp influence over whole systems would give them a powerful staging ground where Chaos couldn't assail them easily; a power base to both assault from and retreat too.
Ps yes I'm aware Orks and Chaos are not good friends, but as Gork and Mork and the 4 Chaos Gods require emotions and life to sustain themselves it stands to reason if the Tyranids rose big enough then those Warp entities would take action. United Chaos forces and United Ork forces would be a vast powerbase. Heck a United Ork force under a huge Waargh and powerful Warlord would be a force to shatter the foundations of even the Imperium. And you can bet if Tyranids rose to be a big enough threat the Orks would unit to counter it - because it would be the BEST fight EVER!
Overread wrote: Cultists are Tyranids so it wouldn't be a case of something others couldn't carry. However its more likely that what they could be taking away is able to spread and/or influence through the newly founded Cults.
Cultists are showing that Tyranids have game plans beyond purely nomming things. Cultists are a very advanced disruption and terrorist weapon that allows the Tyranid Hives to cause massive damage deep behind enemy lines. To infect worlds and systems; to leave damage that will scar generations of people and spread and infect the core of their enemies.
Cultists that arise and manage to take over whole systems are, at best, causing huge disruption and shutting down systems for the Imperium. Even if a Hive Fleet doesn't come to consume the Cult has done its work in weakening the giant of the Imperium.
The Tiamat structure world is still a mystery; its true purpose is still unknown. That said it appears that it doesn't seem to be a staging ground; or if it is then its got additional functions built into it.
One thought might be that its a huge anti-chaos beacon - a huge Shadow in the Warp generator. The idea being that Tyranids presume if they start to take the upper hand too much then the Warp, which relies upon non-Tyranid life in the Galaxy, might well unit. Orks and Chaos are both influenced heavily by Warp Gods and both have presented themselves as powerful opposing forces to Tyranids. The Tyranids might well be building this so that as they gain more ground the enemy has its ability to rise to counter hindered. A huge Shadow in the Warp influence over whole systems would give them a powerful staging ground where Chaos couldn't assail them easily; a power base to both assault from and retreat too.
Ps yes I'm aware Orks and Chaos are not good friends, but as Gork and Mork and the 4 Chaos Gods require emotions and life to sustain themselves it stands to reason if the Tyranids rose big enough then those Warp entities would take action. United Chaos forces and United Ork forces would be a vast powerbase. Heck a United Ork force under a huge Waargh and powerful Warlord would be a force to shatter the foundations of even the Imperium. And you can bet if Tyranids rose to be a big enough threat the Orks would unit to counter it - because it would be the BEST fight EVER!
Honestly I think you are right on the ball, it seems that Tyranids do have a plan beyond eating things. Thinking about it, making a giant shadow in the warp zone would be a good idea.
Ghaz wrote: Because they're carrying something away from the planet that the Tyranids themselves can not?
But what could they be carrying away that's so valuable that puts them in the not eat camp? That's the mystery I think. What's quite interesting is the fact that these GSC have seen the face of their gods and the star children and I hope the Conduit becomes a named character in the future, that would be neat.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
Honestly after this I am even wondering if the true nids are even bug-like and monstrous.
It would completely ruin the fluff if they are anything but bug-like monsters.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
Honestly after this I am even wondering if the true nids are even bug-like and monstrous.
It would completely ruin the fluff if they are anything but bug-like monsters.
It's always been said that the Tyranids are the vanguard of something else, the Tiamet development overall shows that the Hive mind has other concerns than just eating things in my opinion. Hence why I came to that point, the Silent king has seen their true face and when he came back he considered the Tyranids the true threat facing the galaxy.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
Honestly after this I am even wondering if the true nids are even bug-like and monstrous.
It would completely ruin the fluff if they are anything but bug-like monsters.
It's always been said that the Tyranids are the vanguard of something else, the Tiamet development overall shows that the Hive mind has other concerns than just eating things in my opinion. Hence why I came to that point, the Silent king has seen their true face and when he came back he considered the Tyranids the true threat facing the galaxy.
Has it? It was generally implied that the nids are the vanguard of even more nids.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
Honestly after this I am even wondering if the true nids are even bug-like and monstrous.
It would completely ruin the fluff if they are anything but bug-like monsters.
It's always been said that the Tyranids are the vanguard of something else, the Tiamet development overall shows that the Hive mind has other concerns than just eating things in my opinion. Hence why I came to that point, the Silent king has seen their true face and when he came back he considered the Tyranids the true threat facing the galaxy.
Has it? It was generally implied that the nids are the vanguard of even more nids.
Oops correction, I meant to say that they are the vanguard for more nids BUT the nids that are outside the galaxy are not like the ones we see here. That's my theory, since now we are seeing that the hive mind has larger concerns than just eating. Sorry about that I should of clarified.
Edit:The reason why I think this is because Tiamet are calling the GSC for an unknown reason. Before this extract supposedly people thought from my observation that they are going to be eaten, but that's not the case. It's stated they need biomass for this structure so it would make sense to call food towards you, but instead the Hive mind is using the GSC for something else entirely. Since this event was placed at the end of the GSC "timeline" section it must of been a recent event. This to me shows the Hive mind is incredibly Malign and perhaps it's goal is not just to eat people. Now I could be entirely wrong this is just speculation/theories.
Hmm, interesting. I actually really like the Tiamet development in general (and colour scheme), so I would definitely be behind a huge Necron vs Tyranid campaign.
I doubt the "true face" of the Tyranids is anything surprising though- considering how immense the Hive Mind is, it is probably simply some truly colossal Hive ships that function as the core brain of the fleet- any lesser structure is likely to be unable to contain such a monstrous mind. To be fair, the Tyranids have enough genetic material that they can probably make creatures that look like almost anything if they want to, which is why I suspect the core is simply a (or multiple) huge amorphous blob of nervous tissue surrounded by life-support functions, likely constantly updating itself as it absorbs new species and analyses their neurological functions. Truly faceless.
The Silent King could easily have simply seen the huge amount of biomass heading to the galaxy, and that could've been enough to put the wind up him.
Haighus wrote: Hmm, interesting. I actually really like the Tiamet development in general (and colour scheme), so I would definitely be behind a huge Necron vs Tyranid campaign.
I doubt the "true face" of the Tyranids is anything surprising though- considering how immense the Hive Mind is, it is probably simply some truly colossal Hive ships that function as the core brain of the fleet- any lesser structure is likely to be unable to contain such a monstrous mind. To be fair, the Tyranids have enough genetic material that they can probably make creatures that look like almost anything if they want to, which is why I suspect the core is simply a (or multiple) huge amorphous blob of nervous tissue surrounded by life-support functions, likely constantly updating itself as it absorbs new species and analyses their neurological functions. Truly faceless.
The Silent King could easily have simply seen the huge amount of biomass heading to the galaxy, and that could've been enough to put the wind up him.
That's quite logical, maybe it has decided that GSC is worthy to join the proper tyranid club like the vanguard creatures?
Edit:Oh yeah I forgot to add the Hive mind is might be targeting humanity chiefly when it comes to GSC since it's more easier to spread among them compared to the other species. (I am going to double check that point)
"The orks have proven troublesome as hosts, for they can sense a wrongness in those infected, something disturbs the strange gestalt of the greenskin mind. The kroot are much the same, though their avoidance of infected members of their society comes from their ability to taste pheromones, and the wisdom of the Shapers who guide their people's evolution. The Aeldari have such lengthy gestation cycles that they are simply not viable biological hosts; furthermore, their psychic abilities are so well developed they can often see the shadow of the curse even before it can manifest, and avoid it accordingly. The T'au have a connection with their Ethereal caste that makes infection by Genestealers difficult. Only Humanity, so manifold and unruly in its civilisations, has as yet provided an ideal host."
So what do you think? Essentially GW are confirming that others races suck as hosts, even the T'au are poor hosts of the taint now.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
Honestly after this I am even wondering if the true nids are even bug-like and monstrous.
It would completely ruin the fluff if they are anything but bug-like monsters.
It's always been said that the Tyranids are the vanguard of something else, the Tiamet development overall shows that the Hive mind has other concerns than just eating things in my opinion. Hence why I came to that point, the Silent king has seen their true face and when he came back he considered the Tyranids the true threat facing the galaxy.
Has it? It was generally implied that the nids are the vanguard of even more nids.
Oops correction, I meant to say that they are the vanguard for more nids BUT the nids that are outside the galaxy are not like the ones we see here. That's my theory, since now we are seeing that the hive mind has larger concerns than just eating. Sorry about that I should of clarified.
We know what the hive mind is - the gestalt collective consciousness of every single tyranid organism - and all it wants to do is nom nom nom.
And what is unknown about the GSC pilgrimage? The answer is given to you: "Those who touch the corrupted earth with their bare flesh are instantly bought in thrall to it - an convince their brethren to go back into space as missionaries, carrying the Creed of Tiamet to as many imperial worlds as possible."
They are just spreading the gift (infection) that is the GSC.
Tyranids have never been simplistic in their long term plans. It's at the individual gaunt level and at their war level where they are quite basic in terms of "nom nom".
Also don't forget all the lore we have for them is basically Imperial reports of encounters. We've no idea what the Hive Mind really thinks or conceptualises or wants or even has any desire for. All we know is that they devour worlds; it might be that they are not even hungry! That the great beast the devours is but a childish interpretation of Tyranid activity.
As for what's out there in the black of space between Galaxies no one knows. Are Tyranids a vanguard, are they a scouting fleet like how the mongols whipped the Romans with an exploratory force and never game in their full masses. Are they running from something; are they the agents of some greater power; are there tiers of Tyranids and this is the first wave.
Also Tyranids were never buglike to start with, they became buglike. Early Tyranid designs were more organic with considerably less armour on many. Furthermore most of their weapons then were free held in hands and claws; over time they've evolved a more warlike design. Weapons are far more flesh melded into the body; armour has got thicker and more hunched. The only one that has not actually evolved much at all is the Genestealer - though even they have extra carapace plates now.
As for Cults the idea that Tyranids can have a long term plan and use for them beyond just consuming them makes sense. Why invest resources and then waste them; clearly they are re-using the best of them to help spread their infection faster and more fully through Imperial worlds. Humanity is wide spread and makes an ideal target.
Eldar (all forms including dark) and Tau are very small corners and small populations; orks are more wide spread but its noted above why they prove to be unsuitable hosts. So its Humans who, from their own xenophobic spread through the Galaxy, dominate both in terms of population and ease of infestation. Even then it might take many generations before a Cult is ready to rise up - so the further into Imperial lines the cult can be pushed, then all the better for seeding more and more worlds.
Plus they can be used to knock out key worlds. A huge manufacturing world might be beyond the Hives reach, but if Cultists can infect, infest and disrupt then it means less manufacture for the war engine.
Whilst those fluff reasons for other major species being poor hosts are reasonable... it is still clearly a reason for not producing xenos-genestealer hybrids
I still think Tau are the most likely candidate after humans- the Farsight Enclaves in particular are Ethereal-free and much more likely to harbour an insidious cult me thinks.
C4790M wrote: Yeah the entire gsc codex seems to suggest they’re ramping up cults to be a real threat. Which I’m not sure if I’m happy about. If the cults aren’t ready for their day of ascension they’ll just get crushed...
The cults don’t need to take the planet to be successful. Obviously that’s the best result but the uprising does divert Imperial resources to that system instead of the hive fleets. Disrupting reinforcements and troops is still very valuable.
Also I would love to see this become the focus of a Xenos vs Xenos campaign. 40k could really use that right now. If it’s tyrannids and necrons you could even let it be completely results driven since those two factions don’t have an entrenched status quo.
Honestly after this I am even wondering if the true nids are even bug-like and monstrous.
It would completely ruin the fluff if they are anything but bug-like monsters.
It's always been said that the Tyranids are the vanguard of something else, the Tiamet development overall shows that the Hive mind has other concerns than just eating things in my opinion. Hence why I came to that point, the Silent king has seen their true face and when he came back he considered the Tyranids the true threat facing the galaxy.
Has it? It was generally implied that the nids are the vanguard of even more nids.
Oops correction, I meant to say that they are the vanguard for more nids BUT the nids that are outside the galaxy are not like the ones we see here. That's my theory, since now we are seeing that the hive mind has larger concerns than just eating. Sorry about that I should of clarified.
We know what the hive mind is - the gestalt collective consciousness of every single tyranid organism - and all it wants to do is nom nom nom.
And what is unknown about the GSC pilgrimage? The answer is given to you: "Those who touch the corrupted earth with their bare flesh are instantly bought in thrall to it - an convince their brethren to go back into space as missionaries, carrying the Creed of Tiamet to as many imperial worlds as possible."
They are just spreading the gift (infection) that is the GSC.
I disagree, I think it's more than that. So someone named the Conduit receives visions of paradise, instead of weakning the worlds around them they be-line right for the world Tiamet guards viciously. In all encounters with Tyranids the hive mind devours the GSC, nor do they give them visions. So they land on this world, the Tyranids allow them to do this in order to bond with it and then leave. As Overread said I think there is a long-term plan with these guys, they are not being used to just weaken worlds for consumption, with this story I think we are getting to see the hive mind plan beyond just eating people in my opinion.
At the end of the day we will see if they push this plot forward, as you said it could be just infection but there could be more going on in the background.
In recent lore we know Tyranids never faced anything like Daemons in previous galaxies.
So maybe they are harnessing the human psy potential to instead neutralize the warp use it for it's advantage and Tiamat it's trying to give a physical form to the Hive mind itself powered by the Psy power of all the Cultist gathered into a massive functioning planet wide psyker brain.
Lord Perversor wrote: In recent lore we know Tyranids never faced anything like Daemons in previous galaxies.
So maybe they are harnessing the human psy potential to instead neutralize the warp use it for it's advantage and Tiamat it's trying to give a physical form to the Hive mind itself powered by the Psy power of all the Cultist gathered into a massive functioning planet wide psyker brain.
A 'Nid counterpart to Big E would be an interesting development.
Lord Perversor wrote: In recent lore we know Tyranids never faced anything like Daemons in previous galaxies.
So maybe they are harnessing the human psy potential to instead neutralize the warp use it for it's advantage and Tiamat it's trying to give a physical form to the Hive mind itself powered by the Psy power of all the Cultist gathered into a massive functioning planet wide psyker brain.
That would be interesting, afterall something similar happened to the T'au. The races who have the potential to be a pysker spawned an avatar of the greater good.
Also the GSC makes note that in the wake of the great rift more psykers are awakening. Its getting to the point that the black ships are being overtaxed.
The weird thing is that the Tyranid Hive Fleet Kronos is the active anti-chaos fleet, preferring to engage from afar, negative invulnerable saves, and both dampen the warp and repair the Great Rift.
I'm hoping Ouroborous and Tiament are the kind of 'loose-end' things that GW used to populate their boosk with, so players could use their imaginations.
Nurglitch wrote: The weird thing is that the Tyranid Hive Fleet Kronos is the active anti-chaos fleet, preferring to engage from afar, negative invulnerable saves, and both dampen the warp and repair the Great Rift.
I'm hoping Ouroborous and Tiament are the kind of 'loose-end' things that GW used to populate their boosk with, so players could use their imaginations.
That might be another reason, overall I think its cool that GSC have a "shrine" world.
Overread wrote: Tyranids have never been simplistic in their long term plans. It's at the individual gaunt level and at their war level where they are quite basic in terms of "nom nom".
What the hell are you talking about? They have come to nom nom nom. Thats it.
Also don't forget all the lore we have for them is basically Imperial reports of encounters. We've no idea what the Hive Mind really thinks or conceptualises or wants or even has any desire for.
Actually we do. From the devastation of baal.
"The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals. The galaxy teemed with life, and the hive mind glutted itself on a staggering array of biological abundance.
From the human point of view, the tyrannic wars had raged for close to a half millennium. In that time, hundreds of Imperial worlds had been devoured. Several minor races had been consumed. Thousands of unknown planets outside the Imperium’s notice had been turned from living orbs to rocky spheres that would never bear life again."
"The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
Hunting, prey, feeding grounds.. etc.. they are predators and they are here to feed... There are more similar quotes in the book from the nids point of view.
Also:
"They take even the metal,’ said Erwin.
The Servile of the Watch looked up from his podium over the augur pits, where baseline humans less fortunate than he laboured in unbreakable communion with the ship, their eyes and ears removed and sensory cortexes plugged directly into the auspectoria’s cogitators.
‘They take minerals of every kind, my lord,’ said the servile. ‘I have compared spectrographic analysis of this world with records of how it was. It shows massive depletion of all main range elements. The devourer remakes the worlds it consumes. Although I notice a small inconsistency with the oldest records of tyrannic-stripped worlds.’
‘Small enough for me to ignore?’ asked Erwin. The Servile of the Watch was an earnest fellow, genuinely fascinated with his work. He had been known to bore his masters with unnecessary detail.
The servile pulled a neutral expression, making his slave tattoos shift across his face, a sense of motion exaggerated by the low light of the command deck. The Servile of the Watch was unusually expressive for one of his breed. ‘Whether it is relevant or not I shall leave to your deep percipience, my lord.’
Erwin grunted. ‘Edify me then.’
‘The older worlds show a larger loss of mass. The tyranids spent longer on each, digesting parts of the planetary crust. They do not remain so long as they once did. Once the biological components of the world have been devoured, they target only sources of refined metals, such as the Mechanicus station here, in preference to the source minerals.’
‘Then they are running scared, feeding, moving on before they can be interrupted,’ said Erwin. ‘Commander Dante has them afraid.’
‘Or, my lord, they are presented with a surfeit of food. They have nothing to fear. They have too much choice. The Imperium is a banquet to them. They have become fussy eaters"
#nomnomnom
As for Cults the idea that Tyranids can have a long term plan and use for them beyond just consuming them makes sense. Why invest resources and then waste them; clearly they are re-using the best of them to help spread their infection faster and more fully through Imperial worlds. Humanity is wide spread and makes an ideal target.
At the end of the day we will see if they push this plot forward, as you said it could be just infection but there could be more going on in the background.
They are probably send ahead to scout for the best deals on real estate.
Overread wrote: Tyranids have never been simplistic in their long term plans. It's at the individual gaunt level and at their war level where they are quite basic in terms of "nom nom".
What the hell are you talking about? The have come to nom nom nom. Thats it.
Devouring worlds is one facet of their behaviour; however it doesn't mean that the overarching total and only goal of the swarm is consumption. Even if it is the Swarm is clearly advanced enough that it will have complex plans and strategies toward achieving its end goal.
What I'm saying is that you can't view Tyrainds purely as an eating machine; they are more than capable of changing behaviour; of adapting and evolving and using new methods to achieve their end goal; with their objective(s); motivation; concepts; thinking being mostly unknown. You are right in that there are a few instances where we get a near first person view from their side; but they are few and far between and, like in your example, purely display one facet of themselves not a comprehensive one.
Overread wrote: Tyranids have never been simplistic in their long term plans. It's at the individual gaunt level and at their war level where they are quite basic in terms of "nom nom".
What the hell are you talking about? The have come to nom nom nom. Thats it.
Devouring worlds is one facet of their behaviour; however it doesn't mean that the overarching total and only goal of the swarm is consumption. Even if it is the Swarm is clearly advanced enough that it will have complex plans and strategies toward achieving its end goal.
What I'm saying is that you can't view Tyrainds purely as an eating machine; they are more than capable of changing behaviour; of adapting and evolving and using new methods to achieve their end goal; with their objective(s); motivation; concepts; thinking being mostly unknown. You are right in that there are a few instances where we get a near first person view from their side; but they are few and far between and, like in your example, purely display one facet of themselves not a comprehensive one.
So what is this other "goal" of theirs that I have somehow managed to completely miss?
And like you stated, the models might have evolved since 2nd edition, but the basic lore sure hasent...
A lot can change inbetween editions. For example Tiamet, the hive mind did not linger and build things until that hive fleet popped up. Now GW looks to be exploring why that is the case, now with the gsc and the conduit the hive mind is showing further abnormal behaviour.
Edit:Also BL writers have stated not to take their works as gospel, gw can turn around and contradict them. Like for example in the case of tiamet unleashed info. I mean we all remember what GW did to necrons right?
I am no expert here but think all of the idea's presented have interesting points.
I believe they are making a homing beacon, a final push from the Tyranid fleets still moving among the void between galaxies. So a big ol' Cell tower to phone home and let them know to come here first and once within the universe to spread out quickly and overwhelm everything. Having footholds on hundreds of planets will only speed along the consumption of biomass.
There has been several other hypothesis thrown out that the Tyranids are actually running from something else as well.... wouldn't that be grand... and kinda scary too.
Overread wrote: Tyranids have never been simplistic in their long term plans. It's at the individual gaunt level and at their war level where they are quite basic in terms of "nom nom".
What the hell are you talking about? They have come to nom nom nom. Thats it.
Also don't forget all the lore we have for them is basically Imperial reports of encounters. We've no idea what the Hive Mind really thinks or conceptualises or wants or even has any desire for.
Actually we do. From the devastation of baal.
"The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals. The galaxy teemed with life, and the hive mind glutted itself on a staggering array of biological abundance.
From the human point of view, the tyrannic wars had raged for close to a half millennium. In that time, hundreds of Imperial worlds had been devoured. Several minor races had been consumed. Thousands of unknown planets outside the Imperium’s notice had been turned from living orbs to rocky spheres that would never bear life again."
"The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
Hunting, prey, feeding grounds.. etc.. they are predators and they are here to feed... There are more similar quotes in the book from the nids point of view.
Also:
"They take even the metal,’ said Erwin.
The Servile of the Watch looked up from his podium over the augur pits, where baseline humans less fortunate than he laboured in unbreakable communion with the ship, their eyes and ears removed and sensory cortexes plugged directly into the auspectoria’s cogitators.
‘They take minerals of every kind, my lord,’ said the servile. ‘I have compared spectrographic analysis of this world with records of how it was. It shows massive depletion of all main range elements. The devourer remakes the worlds it consumes. Although I notice a small inconsistency with the oldest records of tyrannic-stripped worlds.’
‘Small enough for me to ignore?’ asked Erwin. The Servile of the Watch was an earnest fellow, genuinely fascinated with his work. He had been known to bore his masters with unnecessary detail.
The servile pulled a neutral expression, making his slave tattoos shift across his face, a sense of motion exaggerated by the low light of the command deck. The Servile of the Watch was unusually expressive for one of his breed. ‘Whether it is relevant or not I shall leave to your deep percipience, my lord.’
Erwin grunted. ‘Edify me then.’
‘The older worlds show a larger loss of mass. The tyranids spent longer on each, digesting parts of the planetary crust. They do not remain so long as they once did. Once the biological components of the world have been devoured, they target only sources of refined metals, such as the Mechanicus station here, in preference to the source minerals.’
‘Then they are running scared, feeding, moving on before they can be interrupted,’ said Erwin. ‘Commander Dante has them afraid.’
‘Or, my lord, they are presented with a surfeit of food. They have nothing to fear. They have too much choice. The Imperium is a banquet to them. They have become fussy eaters"
#nomnomnom
As for Cults the idea that Tyranids can have a long term plan and use for them beyond just consuming them makes sense. Why invest resources and then waste them; clearly they are re-using the best of them to help spread their infection faster and more fully through Imperial worlds. Humanity is wide spread and makes an ideal target.
At the end of the day we will see if they push this plot forward, as you said it could be just infection but there could be more going on in the background.
They are probably send ahead to scout for the best deals on real estate.
except even those extacts you posted suggest the hive mind does in fact think beyond JUST consuming "And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
Overread wrote: Tyranids have never been simplistic in their long term plans. It's at the individual gaunt level and at their war level where they are quite basic in terms of "nom nom".
What the hell are you talking about? They have come to nom nom nom. Thats it.
Also don't forget all the lore we have for them is basically Imperial reports of encounters. We've no idea what the Hive Mind really thinks or conceptualises or wants or even has any desire for.
Actually we do. From the devastation of baal.
"The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals. The galaxy teemed with life, and the hive mind glutted itself on a staggering array of biological abundance.
From the human point of view, the tyrannic wars had raged for close to a half millennium. In that time, hundreds of Imperial worlds had been devoured. Several minor races had been consumed. Thousands of unknown planets outside the Imperium’s notice had been turned from living orbs to rocky spheres that would never bear life again."
"The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
Hunting, prey, feeding grounds.. etc.. they are predators and they are here to feed... There are more similar quotes in the book from the nids point of view.
Also:
"They take even the metal,’ said Erwin.
The Servile of the Watch looked up from his podium over the augur pits, where baseline humans less fortunate than he laboured in unbreakable communion with the ship, their eyes and ears removed and sensory cortexes plugged directly into the auspectoria’s cogitators.
‘They take minerals of every kind, my lord,’ said the servile. ‘I have compared spectrographic analysis of this world with records of how it was. It shows massive depletion of all main range elements. The devourer remakes the worlds it consumes. Although I notice a small inconsistency with the oldest records of tyrannic-stripped worlds.’
‘Small enough for me to ignore?’ asked Erwin. The Servile of the Watch was an earnest fellow, genuinely fascinated with his work. He had been known to bore his masters with unnecessary detail.
The servile pulled a neutral expression, making his slave tattoos shift across his face, a sense of motion exaggerated by the low light of the command deck. The Servile of the Watch was unusually expressive for one of his breed. ‘Whether it is relevant or not I shall leave to your deep percipience, my lord.’
Erwin grunted. ‘Edify me then.’
‘The older worlds show a larger loss of mass. The tyranids spent longer on each, digesting parts of the planetary crust. They do not remain so long as they once did. Once the biological components of the world have been devoured, they target only sources of refined metals, such as the Mechanicus station here, in preference to the source minerals.’
‘Then they are running scared, feeding, moving on before they can be interrupted,’ said Erwin. ‘Commander Dante has them afraid.’
‘Or, my lord, they are presented with a surfeit of food. They have nothing to fear. They have too much choice. The Imperium is a banquet to them. They have become fussy eaters"
#nomnomnom
As for Cults the idea that Tyranids can have a long term plan and use for them beyond just consuming them makes sense. Why invest resources and then waste them; clearly they are re-using the best of them to help spread their infection faster and more fully through Imperial worlds. Humanity is wide spread and makes an ideal target.
At the end of the day we will see if they push this plot forward, as you said it could be just infection but there could be more going on in the background.
They are probably send ahead to scout for the best deals on real estate.
except even those extacts you posted suggest the hive mind does in fact think beyond JUST consuming "And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
emphisis mine.
Huh...this seems like that hive mind desires to learn things from the blood angels after defeating and eating them. I mean we know it could do that with the nids but we have confirmation that it desires to learn from other beings as well. It seems that it places value in things that interests it. Whether it's in hatred or seeing something new. Perhaps this Conduit is the same? Hence why they are not being devoured? Same goes for the other GSC who reach the world? Maybe it saw something in the choir of the void and is using them and the planet for a weird experiment?
"The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts. And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
Overread wrote: Tyranids have never been simplistic in their long term plans. It's at the individual gaunt level and at their war level where they are quite basic in terms of "nom nom".
What the hell are you talking about? They have come to nom nom nom. Thats it.
Also don't forget all the lore we have for them is basically Imperial reports of encounters. We've no idea what the Hive Mind really thinks or conceptualises or wants or even has any desire for.
Actually we do. From the devastation of baal.
"The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals. The galaxy teemed with life, and the hive mind glutted itself on a staggering array of biological abundance.
From the human point of view, the tyrannic wars had raged for close to a half millennium. In that time, hundreds of Imperial worlds had been devoured. Several minor races had been consumed. Thousands of unknown planets outside the Imperium’s notice had been turned from living orbs to rocky spheres that would never bear life again."
"The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
Hunting, prey, feeding grounds.. etc.. they are predators and they are here to feed... There are more similar quotes in the book from the nids point of view.
Also:
"They take even the metal,’ said Erwin.
The Servile of the Watch looked up from his podium over the augur pits, where baseline humans less fortunate than he laboured in unbreakable communion with the ship, their eyes and ears removed and sensory cortexes plugged directly into the auspectoria’s cogitators.
‘They take minerals of every kind, my lord,’ said the servile. ‘I have compared spectrographic analysis of this world with records of how it was. It shows massive depletion of all main range elements. The devourer remakes the worlds it consumes. Although I notice a small inconsistency with the oldest records of tyrannic-stripped worlds.’
‘Small enough for me to ignore?’ asked Erwin. The Servile of the Watch was an earnest fellow, genuinely fascinated with his work. He had been known to bore his masters with unnecessary detail.
The servile pulled a neutral expression, making his slave tattoos shift across his face, a sense of motion exaggerated by the low light of the command deck. The Servile of the Watch was unusually expressive for one of his breed. ‘Whether it is relevant or not I shall leave to your deep percipience, my lord.’
Erwin grunted. ‘Edify me then.’
‘The older worlds show a larger loss of mass. The tyranids spent longer on each, digesting parts of the planetary crust. They do not remain so long as they once did. Once the biological components of the world have been devoured, they target only sources of refined metals, such as the Mechanicus station here, in preference to the source minerals.’
‘Then they are running scared, feeding, moving on before they can be interrupted,’ said Erwin. ‘Commander Dante has them afraid.’
‘Or, my lord, they are presented with a surfeit of food. They have nothing to fear. They have too much choice. The Imperium is a banquet to them. They have become fussy eaters"
#nomnomnom
As for Cults the idea that Tyranids can have a long term plan and use for them beyond just consuming them makes sense. Why invest resources and then waste them; clearly they are re-using the best of them to help spread their infection faster and more fully through Imperial worlds. Humanity is wide spread and makes an ideal target.
At the end of the day we will see if they push this plot forward, as you said it could be just infection but there could be more going on in the background.
They are probably send ahead to scout for the best deals on real estate.
except even those extacts you posted suggest the hive mind does in fact think beyond JUST consuming "And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
emphisis mine.
Huh...this seems like that hive mind desires to learn things from the blood angels after defeating and eating them. I mean we know it could do that with the nids but we have confirmation that it desires to learn from other beings as well. It seems that it places value in things that interests it. Whether it's in hatred or seeing something new. Perhaps this Conduit is the same? Hence why they are not being devoured? Same goes for the other GSC who reach the world? Maybe it saw something in the choir of the void and is using them and the planet for a weird experiment?
"The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts. And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
Seems pretty clear to me from that passage that the Tyranids are intreasted in more then JUST nom noms. The Hive mind is capable of stratigic thinking, of spite, etc
shinros wrote: A lot can change inbetween editions. For example Tiamet, the hive mind did not linger and build things until that hive fleet popped up. Now GW looks to be exploring why that is the case, now with the gsc and the conduit the hive mind is showing further abnormal behaviour.
I will try again.
The basic lore has not changed since 2nd edition. They are still aliens from another galaxy who have come to consume ours.
That they are building a beacon - or whatever is it - dosent change that fact.
Except even those extacts you posted suggest the hive mind does in fact think beyond JUST consuming "And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
emphisis mine.
I never said that the hive mind wasn't intelligent. It clearly is beyond any human alive.
"The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed the actions of the myriad creatures in its swarms were performed instinctively, and that the sheer numbers of interactions between them gave rise to complex behaviour. At the very highest level these behaviours were remarkable, but only had the semblance of thought. Ultimately instinct drove the hive fleets, they said, not free will. Similar false intelligences had been witnessed so very many times in social animals across space, after all, from the ants of ancient Earth to the thought-trees of Demarea. The hive mind’s actions could be ascribed to sentient consideration, but the sages insisted they were nothing of the sort.
The biologans held the hive mind to be only a complicated animal, a supreme predator driven by a devastatingly powerful reactive mind, nevertheless devoid of soul. It was an automaton, they said. Unfeeling.
It was as unaware of what it did as the wind is unaware of the cliff whose face it scours away, grain by grain. The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive"
And the last bit is why you should take the word "vengeance" with a grain of salt.
Huh...this seems like that hive mind desires to learn things from the blood angels after defeating and eating them. I mean we know it could do that with the nids but we have confirmation that it desires to learn from other beings as well. It seems that it places value in things that interests it. Whether it's in hatred or seeing something new. Perhaps this Conduit is the same? Hence why they are not being devoured? Same goes for the other GSC who reach the world? Maybe it saw something in the choir of the void and is using them and the planet for a weird experiment?
It simply means that it wants their genetic info to create new organisms to help their war effert.
Seems pretty clear to me from that passage that the Tyranids are intreasted in more then JUST nom noms. The Hive mind is capable of stratigic thinking, of spite, etc
The hive mind outwitted both the BA and the smurfs. Its incredible intelligent.
The Tyranids have always been smarter then anyone gave them credit for. They nom purely to acquire resources. Each planet devoured is 100% gains and no losses. The Imperium and other races assume different have fleets are distinct entities. They are not. All are one hive mind. They assume the nids are eating to sate a hunger or propagate. They are not.
The actual end goal of the hive mind is lovecraftian style unknowable. They are not mindless. They are just so far from anything we are that it's not relatable.
The actual end goal of the hive mind is lovecraftian style unknowable.
I dont understand why you think there is some kind of end goal.
Why do tigers hunt? To stay alive. Just like the tyranids..
They are simply a force of nature.
Except the Tyranids don't need to hunt to stay alive.
They are capable of surviving the vast emptiness between galaxies in hibernation. Food is not a concern for them. Most tyranid organisms don't even have a digestive tract. And the ones that do are simply helping to turn things into gruel to be sucked up into the hive ships to be turned into more organisms to throw down onto a planet.
YOU, like the Imperium and Eldar and everyone else, are trying to explain the Tyranids by the closest parallel you have. An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things. Your closest parallel doesn't actually match up at all.
Lance845 wrote: The Tyranids have always been smarter then anyone gave them credit for. They nom purely to acquire resources. Each planet devoured is 100% gains and no losses. The Imperium and other races assume different have fleets are distinct entities. They are not. All are one hive mind. They assume the nids are eating to sate a hunger or propagate. They are not.
The actual end goal of the hive mind is lovecraftian style unknowable. They are not mindless. They are just so far from anything we are that it's not relatable.
shinros wrote: A lot can change inbetween editions. For example Tiamet, the hive mind did not linger and build things until that hive fleet popped up. Now GW looks to be exploring why that is the case, now with the gsc and the conduit the hive mind is showing further abnormal behaviour.
I will try again.
The basic lore has not changed since 2nd edition. They are still aliens from another galaxy who have come to consume ours.
That they are building a beacon - or whatever is it - dosent change that fact.
Except even those extacts you posted suggest the hive mind does in fact think beyond JUST consuming "And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance."
emphisis mine.
I never said that the hive mind wasn't intelligent. It clearly is beyond any human alive.
"The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed the actions of the myriad creatures in its swarms were performed instinctively, and that the sheer numbers of interactions between them gave rise to complex behaviour. At the very highest level these behaviours were remarkable, but only had the semblance of thought. Ultimately instinct drove the hive fleets, they said, not free will. Similar false intelligences had been witnessed so very many times in social animals across space, after all, from the ants of ancient Earth to the thought-trees of Demarea. The hive mind’s actions could be ascribed to sentient consideration, but the sages insisted they were nothing of the sort.
The biologans held the hive mind to be only a complicated animal, a supreme predator driven by a devastatingly powerful reactive mind, nevertheless devoid of soul. It was an automaton, they said. Unfeeling.
It was as unaware of what it did as the wind is unaware of the cliff whose face it scours away, grain by grain. The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive"
And the last bit is why you should take the word "vengeance" with a grain of salt.
Huh...this seems like that hive mind desires to learn things from the blood angels after defeating and eating them. I mean we know it could do that with the nids but we have confirmation that it desires to learn from other beings as well. It seems that it places value in things that interests it. Whether it's in hatred or seeing something new. Perhaps this Conduit is the same? Hence why they are not being devoured? Same goes for the other GSC who reach the world? Maybe it saw something in the choir of the void and is using them and the planet for a weird experiment?
It simply means that it wants their genetic info to create new organisms to help their war effert.
Seems pretty clear to me from that passage that the Tyranids are intreasted in more then JUST nom noms. The Hive mind is capable of stratigic thinking, of spite, etc
The hive mind outwitted both the BA and the smurfs. Its incredible intelligent.
But it's only desire is to consume.
The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive
But In my opinion your quotation is more evidence that it can think beyond just eating, actually that whole section states we have no idea what the hive mind truly wants. So if it's desire was to only consume, it has free meals coming towards it constantly, Tiamet needs biomass for whatever they are building according to the codexes. In all instances of the hive mind encountering the GSC it eats them. The hive mind never calls to a human, it just uses the patriarch as beacon this is further abnormal behaviour in my opinion. The hive mind uses GSC to weaken worlds and eats them, thats it. But now we have this story where the hive mind is CALLING gsc to a world, making them bond with it and then allowing them to leave and send missionaries talking about the creed of Tiamet.
Actually so far this choir of the void are the only ones not to be nomed by their star gods. The GSC natural instinct is the spread among the worlds, not follow a prophet to "paradise".
Looking at the definition of Conduit which is the name of the prophet, GW are being pretty hamfisted in my opinion.
A channel for conveying water or other fluid.
‘nearby springs supplied the conduit which ran into the brewery’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1 A person or organization that acts as a channel for the transmission of something.
‘as an actor you have to be a conduit for other people's words’
More example sentences
2A tube or trough for protecting electric wiring.
‘the gas pipe should not be close to any electrical conduit’
mass noun ‘the cable must be protected by conduit’
They are probably send ahead to scout for the best deals on real estate.
I don't think they are scouts or being sent to soften worlds, they are most likely using humanity's psy potential to call to the true tyranid threat beyond the galaxy. The new GSC codex makes note that since the great scar more and more people are discovering their psy potential to the point the black ships are being taxed. The more people that come to that world and bond with it perhaps the bigger the psychic resonance becomes. The disagreement many have with you is that perhaps the true goal of the hive mind is not consumption, considering it's vast intelligence through the extracts you provided. Now we could be entirely wrong but I wouldn't put it past GW to change tyranids in light of the Necrons. Before Necrons were just machines that sought to kill all life, but then they turned them in space undead, with thoughts and wills.
Most information on the nids are imperial recounts, plus GW have stated in LVO that they are changing the setting somewhat, what that will entail I don't know.
Now this is just my personal opinion but Tyranids are pathetic at the moment, you can't sell a threat like them if they lose almost every major engagement they are involved in. Reading their codex is depressing. Let's not forget in devastation of Baal, Dante facing down a swarmlord and winning, seriously? The best bioform of the nid fleet losing to an astartes? Narrative wise where can you take such a faction? Hence why I believe they changed Necrons, now is this the start of making the nids something differently entirely? Who knows, anyway this is just a speculation/theory thread after all.
Which is what I said. Lovecraftian style unknowable. So far removed from anything we know that we cannot comprehend it.
It helps that the tyranids are the only extra galactic entity in 40k thus far. Everything else is from our home systems. Even the warp entities are born from our understandable emotions. Not the Tyranids though.
Tiamet could even be a giant multi-planetary psychic mind control machine once completed - the galaxy would be much easier to eat if all the humans put their guns down and scaling up the control mechanisms of the GC seems to be something the Hive Fleets might attempt as an evolution of their existing attempts.
Tiamet could even be a giant multi-planetary psychic mind control machine once completed - the galaxy would be much easier to eat if all the humans put their guns down and scaling up the control mechanisms of the GC seems to be something the Hive Fleets might attempt as an evolution of their existing attempts.
Wow that would be scary if that was what the hive mind was aiming for.
Which is what I said. Lovecraftian style unknowable. So far removed from anything we know that we cannot comprehend it.
It helps that the tyranids are the only extra galactic entity in 40k thus far. Everything else is from our home systems. Even the warp entities are born from our understandable emotions. Not the Tyranids though.
Hmm, that is a good point Tyranids are the only question mark faction so far in the setting.
Maybe the Tyranids fear that the Emperor might be killed or disabled by the more recent chaos activities. Therefore in order to continue they are building their own vast beacon. Whilst it might have a side effect of other races using it for Warp Travel navigation; it could also keep calling more swarms from the void outside of the Galaxy.
The Emperor could fall but the Tyrainds would have a new flame to draw them too.
Another angle is that we've always assumed the Tyranids "want" to be drawn to the Emperor. Perhaps instead they don't want that; that the Emperor is causing some kind of divide within the Swarm that weakens it by drawing Hive ships toward him. Drawing them away from a concentrated central force; pulling at the threads the Hive is trying to form. So they build their own beacon; their own vast beacon, to counter that element.
It's a piece of technology more powerful then the astronomicon and doesn't require the Big E to function. The Emperor is just another thing to eat.
Also the Tyranids don't use warp travel. Their FTL allows them to anchor to gravity sources and fall through space time. It only works outside of a system. They use conventional propulsion within a system, ' And again, there are no "more swarms". Hive fleets are a construct of mankind to give shape and form to a thing they do not understand. There is only one hive mind. All tyranids are extensions of one entity. Nothing is needed to guide anything here. The hive mind is here so all portions of it are already aware.
It's a piece of technology more powerful then the astronomicon and doesn't require the Big E to function. The Emperor is just another thing to eat.
Also the Tyranids don't use warp travel. Their FTL allows them to anchor to gravity sources and fall through space time. It only works outside of a system. They use conventional propulsion within a system,
Yup all of this is right on the money, hence why it takes awhile for them to get anywhere. But it's amusing whenever they use their gravity jump it messes up the planets around them.
Except the Tyranids don't need to hunt to stay alive.
Tyranids are not magic. They still need to eat to stay alive. Just like you and I.
"At night it sprinted tirelessly across the desert, sustained by bladders of super-nutritious fluid contained within its body. The roar of the hive mind was growing stronger by the day, but the lictor was not aware of the mind. It had no sentience. Instead, the mind became aware of the lictor, much in the way a man becomes aware of his limbs only when he thinks of using them.
On it pounded through the nights as the prey creatures’ clumsily engineered warrior caste gathered around the world. As Mephiston dreamed, it loped across the Waste of Enod. As Dante drew up his plans, it crossed the Bloodwise Mounts, bounding tirelessly from crag to crag, its hooves punching sharp holes in the pristine snows of the summits. Where it could, it fed upon Baal’s sparse life to supplement its nutrient fluids, but it did not tire."
YOU, like the Imperium and Eldar and everyone else, are trying to explain the Tyranids by the closest parallel you have. An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things. Your closest parallel doesn't actually match up at all.
Actually, I am just keeping to the lore we have available...
You are ofc fully in your right to dream up more fanfic.
The "true face" of the Hive Mind has always been implied to be just even more Nids, afaik. It would be a great reason to release models for new strains of Nid though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things.
This is an oversimplification of biology; animals do obtain food to survive but when presented with an excess of food they do not suddenly decide to stop eating & reproducing. Rats do not NEED to breed into the millions to survive, but they do it anyways because they are programmed to feth and eat our garbage.
Except the Tyranids don't need to hunt to stay alive.
Tyranids are not magic. They still need to eat to stay alive. Just like you and I.
"At night it sprinted tirelessly across the desert, sustained by bladders of super-nutritious fluid contained within its body. The roar of the hive mind was growing stronger by the day, but the lictor was not aware of the mind. It had no sentience. Instead, the mind became aware of the lictor, much in the way a man becomes aware of his limbs only when he thinks of using them.
On it pounded through the nights as the prey creatures’ clumsily engineered warrior caste gathered around the world. As Mephiston dreamed, it loped across the Waste of Enod. As Dante drew up his plans, it crossed the Bloodwise Mounts, bounding tirelessly from crag to crag, its hooves punching sharp holes in the pristine snows of the summits. Where it could, it fed upon Baal’s sparse life to supplement its nutrient fluids, but it did not tire."
YOU, like the Imperium and Eldar and everyone else, are trying to explain the Tyranids by the closest parallel you have. An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things. Your closest parallel doesn't actually match up at all.
Actually, I am just keeping to the lore we have available...
You are ofc fully in your right to dream up more fanfic.
Yeah, you get that from one of the novels? You have ANY idea how inconsistent the novels are? Down to weapons that fire energy being slug throwers in one guys book because there is no consistency.
The books are officially published fan fics.
But even with that, the lictor and all tyranids on a planet are not breed to survive. They are bred to do a job and then get reabsorbed with the feeder organisms in the digestion pools. Some guy coming up with a reason for why the nids have the energy to function for more than 24 hours is just that. A reason it lasts for its very short existance before going into the gruel. Again, nids are not built to last. They are not an organism like a tiger. They are a limb for the hive mind to use.
To add to the discussion I am going to post the whole timeline extract of what Tiamet is possibly doing.
Spoiler:
Tyranids 8th edition
A nightmare unearthed
Far out on the northern edge of the galaxy lies the Tiamet System. This unremarkable region is home to one of the Hive Mind's most disturbing secrets, the truth of which is only now beginning to emerge...
Call to the Void
"Upon the world of Heinrich's March, worshippers of the Dark gods work their tortured slaves to death as they attempt to erect a monolithic ziggurat in honour of their foul patrons. A new and hidden cult propagates admist the persecuted masses: the Choir of the Void. it's leader, the blind prophet known as the Conduit, preaches that a savior race from beyond the stars awaits them in a far-off place, a paradise planet where they will find salvation. In a great uprising, millions of slaves overwhelm their masters and commander several dozen cargo hulks. The armada of the faithful makes for the nearby Tiamet System, guided by the visions of the Conduit."
Ominous Reports
More and more reports of missing ships and lost fleets drift in to Watch Fortress Haltmoat. The common denominator in each of these cases is that the vessels were last reported in the vicinity of the Tiamet System, far from safe haven. Watch Commander Vilnus orders an immediate survey of the area.
Dread Discovery
Kill team Gjynheim departs from Haltmoat to investigate the reports of missing trade fleets near the Tiamet system. (Lexicanum notes Tiamet are gathering ships for some reason.) The Deathwatch drift in-system unnoticed, and land upon Ziaphoria. There, they discover the xenos super-structure that covers the planet's largest continent. When the vast device pulses, sending a tsunami of psychic energy rolling across the planet, the Kill Team's Librarian suffers a catastrophic cranial rupture.
His screams alert nearby Tyranids, and soon the remaining battle-brothers are surrounded by swarming xenos. Before he and his remaining battle-brothers are torn apart, Watch Sergeant Gjunheim manages to send one final vox transmission to the team's orbiting Corvus Blackstar, warning of the nightmare his men have uncovered.
The Butcher of Octarius
Haltmoat receives an unexpected guest - the exiled Inquisitor Kryptman. Watch Commander Vilnus agrees to an audience with the outcast, who has his own grim theories regarding the mysterious Hive Fleet Tiamet. Together, the two begin to formulate a plan that will see whatever the Tyranids are creating utterly obliterated.
Genestealer Cults 8th edition(The choir of the void was not mentioned at all in 7th)
Tiamet Rising
"Ziaphoria, the repugnant and anomalous jungle planet claimed by Hive Fleet Tiamet, becomes a site of a disturbing new development in the curse of tyrannoforming, the hyper-accelerated biological process that overcomes the prey worlds of the Hive Mind. There the conquering hive fleets have constructed vast psychic resonators of fleshy, encephalitic material - some of the size of mountains, some large enough to cover entire continents.
The world forms the end point of a vast pilgrimage of genestealer cultists from the nearby Heinrich's march. Led by a blind prophet known as the Conduit, they depart from a world plagued by the Dark Gods, plying the stars to eventually land upon Ziaphoria's pulsating crust. Those who touch the corrupted earth with their bare flesh are instantly bought in thrall to it - and convince their brethren to go back into space as missionaries, carrying the Creed of Tiamet to as many imperial worlds as possible. They are first of dozens of interstellar pilgrimages that seek out Ziaphoria, and in doing so, add to its power. The Tyranids of Hive Fleet Tiamet defend the planet so ferociously it is declared Quaratine Extremis and abandoned entirely by the Imperium.
Only the Deathwatch of nearby Haltmoat and Inquisitor Kryptman, who comes out of exile to join them - have any inkling of the threat posed by the immense psychic resonator of Tiamet. The theories they discuss long into the night are so wild, and the other threats facing the Imperium so dire, that they are given little credence by the wider Inquisition."
So there are theories this could be a beacon or an anti-warp weapon. Since it causes Eldar and psykers to explode due to the psychic shockwaves that pulse across the world. I assume the Conduit is a Magus, he seems to be fine and those GSC who journey to the world.
Now since the prophets name is conduit I will bring up the defination again.
A channel for conveying water or other fluid.
‘nearby springs supplied the conduit which ran into the brewery’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1 A person or organization that acts as a channel for the transmission of something.
‘as an actor you have to be a conduit for other people's words’
More example sentences
2A tube or trough for protecting electric wiring.
‘the gas pipe should not be close to any electrical conduit’
mass noun ‘the cable must be protected by conduit’
So perhaps the hive mind is using them to help guide the fleet to the galaxy or perhaps the hive mind wishes to channel itself through the conduit? Plus the extract notes that the pilgrims are the first among many.
Oh yeah and I forgot to mention a Cult found the corpse of one-eye, they are worshipping it now next to their Patriarch.
Except the Tyranids don't need to hunt to stay alive.
Tyranids are not magic. They still need to eat to stay alive. Just like you and I.
"At night it sprinted tirelessly across the desert, sustained by bladders of super-nutritious fluid contained within its body. The roar of the hive mind was growing stronger by the day, but the lictor was not aware of the mind. It had no sentience. Instead, the mind became aware of the lictor, much in the way a man becomes aware of his limbs only when he thinks of using them.
On it pounded through the nights as the prey creatures’ clumsily engineered warrior caste gathered around the world. As Mephiston dreamed, it loped across the Waste of Enod. As Dante drew up his plans, it crossed the Bloodwise Mounts, bounding tirelessly from crag to crag, its hooves punching sharp holes in the pristine snows of the summits. Where it could, it fed upon Baal’s sparse life to supplement its nutrient fluids, but it did not tire."
YOU, like the Imperium and Eldar and everyone else, are trying to explain the Tyranids by the closest parallel you have. An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things. Your closest parallel doesn't actually match up at all.
Actually, I am just keeping to the lore we have available...
You are ofc fully in your right to dream up more fanfic.
Yeah, you get that from one of the novels? You have ANY idea how inconsistent the novels are? Down to weapons that fire energy being slug throwers in one guys book because there is no consistency.
The books are officially published fan fics.
But even with that, the lictor and all tyranids on a planet are not breed to survive. They are bred to do a job and then get reabsorbed with the feeder organisms in the digestion pools. Some guy coming up with a reason for why the nids have the energy to function for more than 24 hours is just that. A reason it lasts for its very short existance before going into the gruel. Again, nids are not built to last. They are not an organism like a tiger. They are a limb for the hive mind to use.
Pretty much, ADB has came out and said not to take BL novels as truth when people were running with theories of who is the next primarch to be released due to lords of silence since mortarion referenced the Lion and I think Khan.
He then went on to say that if GW decides to change Abbadon(which they can) he may not even write black legion books anymore. I mean look at Ciphas Cain, he deals with GSC but they are entirely different now since they got updated in 7th. Look at the deathwatch books, they got information "wrong" since it was released before the update as well.
What we should be looking at is the codex's(recent ones), if we follow a black library book eldar GSC souls join the broodmind when they die. So does that mean that's the case with human GSC? I doubt it since the codex makes no reference to this, that whole bit was Gav Thorpe spicing up the story. He is a freelancer, he doesn't decide the lore. Josh Reynolds even got in trouble for calling the Grand Theogonist a woman since GW hasn't properly decided where to take that story thread yet. He even went on to say he doesn't decide AOS lore bits either, he said GW can turn around and change it in their main lore books.
Tie in novels, that go with products are actually more accurate since the editors want the writers to be on point. At the end of the day BL novels are inconsistent, the writers themselves have stated this considering how GW updates their lore.
Except the Tyranids don't need to hunt to stay alive.
Tyranids are not magic. They still need to eat to stay alive. Just like you and I.
"At night it sprinted tirelessly across the desert, sustained by bladders of super-nutritious fluid contained within its body. The roar of the hive mind was growing stronger by the day, but the lictor was not aware of the mind. It had no sentience. Instead, the mind became aware of the lictor, much in the way a man becomes aware of his limbs only when he thinks of using them.
On it pounded through the nights as the prey creatures’ clumsily engineered warrior caste gathered around the world. As Mephiston dreamed, it loped across the Waste of Enod. As Dante drew up his plans, it crossed the Bloodwise Mounts, bounding tirelessly from crag to crag, its hooves punching sharp holes in the pristine snows of the summits. Where it could, it fed upon Baal’s sparse life to supplement its nutrient fluids, but it did not tire."
YOU, like the Imperium and Eldar and everyone else, are trying to explain the Tyranids by the closest parallel you have. An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things. Your closest parallel doesn't actually match up at all.
Actually, I am just keeping to the lore we have available...
You are ofc fully in your right to dream up more fanfic.
Yeah, you get that from one of the novels? You have ANY idea how inconsistent the novels are?
Will the 5th and 8th edition codex do then?
5th edition.
8th edition.
"Perhaps the Tyranids have already consumed everything of worth in their home galaxy and must find new feeding grounds or starve."
Do you have a quote stating that they do not need to food/energy to stay alive?
Did you notice that both statements are basically questions without answers?
They are not final statements of fact. They are humanity looking at what happened and trying to rationalize it.
The Tryanid codexs are unique in that they are the only codexes not written from the point of view of their faction. All nid books are written from the point of view of humanity trying to figure out what the feths happening.
They look at the distances the nids must have traveled and they say "that MUST have required so much energy. They MUST have devoured an entire galaxy to do it." But they dont KNOW any of that.
It's a piece of technology more powerful then the astronomicon and doesn't require the Big E to function. The Emperor is just another thing to eat.
Also the Tyranids don't use warp travel. Their FTL allows them to anchor to gravity sources and fall through space time. It only works outside of a system. They use conventional propulsion within a system,
Yup all of this is right on the money, hence why it takes awhile for them to get anywhere. But it's amusing whenever they use their gravity jump it messes up the planets around them.
The Emperor still serves as a beacon marking out the centre of the Imperium and last I checked they do head towards it.
I just want to raise the point for a moment, going through the 8th edition codex now. Anders extract is still there, but another passage caught my eye when it was describing the hive mind itself. I think both of you are right.
"The Magos Biologis of the Imperium categorises each Tyranid hive fleet as a separate force, an individual entity that competes with other hive fleets for resources. Indeed, each is self-sufficient, appearing to exhibit different strategies and developing unique creatures to overcome its prey. However, the truth is more complex, for each hive fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage. the Tyranids numbers are vast beyond counting, swarms so large that they block out the very stars, yet each and every creature is but a single cell in a living body of a single super-organism.
Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness, a great entity that stretches across hundreds of light years of space. This gestalt sentience is known as the Hive Mind. It holds all Tyranids in a psychic bond that enables them to act in perfect synchronicity. Under the influence of this ancient consciousness, the Tyranids have fed on countless planets and devoured civilisations since time immemorial.
The majority of Tyranid organisms have no distinct mind as a human would understand it, having been created to perform a single task to the exclusion of all else. Unless the implacable will of the Hive Mind instructs them to do otherwise, these organism simply fulfil the functions for which they were created, acting on nothing more than instinct. Larger, more complicated, Tyranid beasts have grown to make limited decisions appropriate to current stimuli and situations, but even these actions are subordinate to the goals of the Hive mind."
The extract goes on to say that the influence of the hive mind is stronger when there are loads of synaptic creatures around. Which we all know, but when they are killed the organisms without a mind turn feral."
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but perhaps the Hive mind is entirely separate from the nids and the hive mind is simply directing them? That's what I am getting from these passages. We know the hive mind can be angered, it can plan and have desires which are not shown on the Tyranids themselves. All we have are imperial accounts of what the hive mind possibly is, but the 8th edition codex is saying that they are wrong. The Hive mind is pretty much a lovercraft intelligence.
It's a piece of technology more powerful then the astronomicon and doesn't require the Big E to function. The Emperor is just another thing to eat.
Also the Tyranids don't use warp travel. Their FTL allows them to anchor to gravity sources and fall through space time. It only works outside of a system. They use conventional propulsion within a system,
Yup all of this is right on the money, hence why it takes awhile for them to get anywhere. But it's amusing whenever they use their gravity jump it messes up the planets around them.
The Emperor still serves as a beacon marking out the centre of the Imperium and last I checked they do head towards it.
Oh yeah, but there are theories in the Tyranid codex stating that perhaps the planet Tiamet is building upon is a beacon as well. At this point we just don't know what they are doing.
Lance845 wrote: Did you notice that both statements are basically questions without answers?
Is this better then?
6th edition.
The Tryanid codexs are unique in that they are the only codexes not written from the point of view of their faction. All nid books are written from the point of view of humanity trying to figure out what the feths happening.
They look at the distances the nids must have traveled and they say "that MUST have required so much energy. They MUST have devoured an entire galaxy to do it." But they dont KNOW any of that.
We dont know from what point of view the introduction is written.
But why do you think they have no need of food to stay alive? Is it a piece of fluff I have somehow managed to miss?
Read any codex entry about them devouring a world. They make no waste. Every scrap of organic mater, every molecule of fluid, every atom of air is taken and recycled to breed more organisms.
Stop thinking about what a hormagaunt does to get its job done. The hormagaunt is a cell in a body not a body unto itself.
The tyranid body takes all and uses all. There is no waste. When those resources are spent to breed new organisms on the next planet if the nids win not only do they recoup 100% of the resources spent but gain every new organic scrap.
Thats not feeding to sustain itself any more than mining iron ore is. They aquire biomass. They dont spend it unless they loose. And thats only a temporary loss until they take it back.
Lance845 wrote: Did you notice that both statements are basically questions without answers?
Is this better then?
6th edition.
The Tryanid codexs are unique in that they are the only codexes not written from the point of view of their faction. All nid books are written from the point of view of humanity trying to figure out what the feths happening.
They look at the distances the nids must have traveled and they say "that MUST have required so much energy. They MUST have devoured an entire galaxy to do it." But they dont KNOW any of that.
We dont know from what point of view the introduction is written.
But why do you think they have no need of food to stay alive? Is it a piece of fluff I have somehow managed to miss?
I can confirm this extract is also in the 8th edition codex. But what is strange is that they are playing up the strangeness of the hive mind, no one knows what it wants truly or what it wants save that it directs the Tyranids.
Going back to the Tiamet page.
Part of the opening paragraph
Hive fleet Tiamet is a unique phenomenon: a Tyranid incursion fleet which has claimed a cluster of planets without entirely stripping them of biomass, and continues to guard its conquered territory with single-minded ferocity.
Then we have theories on the device.
"What purpose this bizarre device serves is yet unknown, but for the hive mind to devote an entire fleet to its protection is a worrying portent. Ordo Xeno inquisitors have theorised it may be a powerful beacon, guiding yet more Tyranid hive fleets into the galaxy. In recent years, sightings of questing Tiamet tendrils have become worryingly common, as the hive fleet seeks fresh yields of biomass with which to finish its creation. These hosts have proven extremely difficult to kill, shrugging off volumes of fire that should have seen them utterly obliterated."
Overall the codex is telling us that whatever the hive mind and Tiamet is doing is bloody odd, this is not norm at all. They haven't even eaten the whole worlds completely.
Now this is just my personal opinion but Tyranids are pathetic at the moment, you can't sell a threat like them if they lose almost every major engagement they are involved in. Reading their codex is depressing. Let's not forget in devastation of Baal, Dante facing down a swarmlord and winning, seriously? The best bioform of the nid fleet losing to an astartes? Narrative wise where can you take such a faction? Hence why I believe they changed Necrons, now is this the start of making the nids something differently entirely? Who knows, anyway this is just a speculation/theory thread after all.
The Tyranids are a far from a "pathetic" threat. They have taken huge chunks out of the Imperium, more than just about any xeno faction, and those worlds are consumed and impossible for the Imperium to retake (unless they want a lifeless ball of rock). They put a literal dent in the border of the Ultima Segmentum.They destroyed Gryphonne IV, stated as one of the most heavily fortified worlds in the "southern" part of the galaxy.
The thing is whenever we see the Tyranids depicted in fiction, it is as antagonists and BL books have the protagonists winning usually through some deus ex machina at the end. Rare is the book that has the protagonists lose or have to really come to terms with defeat. However, for every planet defended successfully against the Tyranids, many more forgettable worlds get consumed, such as all those poorly defended agri-worlds that are mentioned only in passing in how Kraken's splinter fleets are regrowing. The Imperium might crow about victories such as Ichar and Tarsis Ultra, but they could win the battle and lose the war, so to speak. Lose 1 but win 100 other battles? I think the Hive Mind would see that as an acceptable trade off.
Now this is just my personal opinion but Tyranids are pathetic at the moment, you can't sell a threat like them if they lose almost every major engagement they are involved in. Reading their codex is depressing. Let's not forget in devastation of Baal, Dante facing down a swarmlord and winning, seriously? The best bioform of the nid fleet losing to an astartes? Narrative wise where can you take such a faction? Hence why I believe they changed Necrons, now is this the start of making the nids something differently entirely? Who knows, anyway this is just a speculation/theory thread after all.
The Tyranids are a far from a "pathetic" threat. They have taken huge chunks out of the Imperium. They destroyed Gryphonne IV, stated as one of the most heavily fortified worlds in the "southern" part of the galaxy.
The thing is whenever we see the Tyranids depicted in fiction, it is as antagonists and BL books have the protagonists winning usually through some deus ex machina at the end. Rare is the book that has the protagonists lose or have to really come to terms with defeat. However, for every planet defended successfully against the Tyranids, many more forgettable worlds get consumed, such as all those poorly defended agri-worlds that are mentioned only in passing in how Kraken's splinter fleets are regrowing. The Imperium could win the battle and lose the war, so to speak. Lose 1 but win 100 other battles? I think the Hive Mind would see that as an acceptable trade off.
Right, I don't want to derail the thread but my point does not change and I am going to address this once. Oh no! They devoured non-important worlds! While the narrative on the other hand is screaming/banging on at us that chaos is the main threat, we should be scared of daemons and CSM. Not the bug-monsters who are directed by a weird unknowable intelligence that seeks to eat planets and rewrite our DNA to worship it.
It was the same with the oldcrons, Oh no! They can kill all life! They are such a big threat! Yet they got no where and was beaten time and time again. Let's not forget what the Ultramarines has done to em as well.
Where can you take such a narrative? It's why I feel they injected personality in the Necrons and why I personally think they bought back GSC. You can actually write consistent and interesting stories about them. Even daemons have more personality than tyranids since they are after all walking emotions.
It doesn't matter if a codex tells me that they have eaten planet number 120340506, if in the main engagement narratives that actually matter to people they always lose. This was even a complaint about the 8th edition codex.
This is one aspect where AOS has 40k beaten in my opinion, each Grand Alliance is a equal threat to each other and the narrative treats it that way.
Lance845 wrote: Read any codex entry about them devouring a world. They make no waste. Every scrap of organic mater, every molecule of fluid, every atom of air is taken and recycled to breed more organisms.
Stop thinking about what a hormagaunt does to get its job done. The hormagaunt is a cell in a body not a body unto itself.
The tyranid body takes all and uses all. There is no waste. When those resources are spent to breed new organisms on the next planet if the nids win not only do they recoup 100% of the resources spent but gain every new organic scrap.
No **** sherlock, but every single tyranid organism still needs nurishment to stay alive, from hormagaunt to hive ship.
It doesn't matter if a codex tells me that they have eaten planet number 120340506, if in the main engagement narratives that actually matter to people they always lose. This was even a complaint about the 8th edition codex.
The thing is the status quo is always going to be maintained because no company would want to actually say "Ok lets just write off a whole faction due to lore because it would advance the story." They are never going to retire ultra marines because Tyranids ate their homeworld. It just won't happen. They "MIGHT" use it as an excuse in the lore to justify a purely business choice (army isn't selling and no value can be seen in investment to try and improve sales and thus its retired*).
So yeah if Tyranids eat their way to Terra you can bet they will lose the final battle; same as if Orks built a Waaagh big enough to do it or if Chaos got a Crusade there etc... AoS is actually exactly the same, if not actually worse at this stage, because at least in the 40K setting there are known key worlds like Cadia which have a meaning and importance. Right now AoS hasn't really got any such sites save for Realmgates. As a result they can wipe out whole cities and it has little to no real narrative effect because no one even knows where the heck it is on the map; nor its political and power relations. It's actually a huge complaint about the AoS setting that isn't helped by the fact that the setting itself is spread over several hundred years (from the Realmgate Wars to re-building after which is clearly at least multiple generations to have allowed cities to form and thrive and for people and even aelves to be raised without being under the yoke of Chaos).
IT's the fate of any wargame or other product tied lore in that its going to never change dramatically. You'll never see the Imperium of Man fall to nothing; or see Chaos rise to rule all or see Tyranids eat everyone etc... Heck because marketing is so tied into many lores you won't even see vast changes like the Emperor of Man being killed. Warmachine has toyed with going further in a few places -they've had one or two heroes change sides so that they've a Version 1 in one army and a new one in a different force. So there are ways to go further, but GW has never really gone there
*Interestingly I recall that whilst the Tyranids are famous for having "Eaten" the squats homeworld its actually a bit of lore that was never official, but has been repeated so many times in the community that its almost the general argument put forth.
Lance845 wrote: Read any codex entry about them devouring a world. They make no waste. Every scrap of organic mater, every molecule of fluid, every atom of air is taken and recycled to breed more organisms.
Stop thinking about what a hormagaunt does to get its job done. The hormagaunt is a cell in a body not a body unto itself.
The tyranid body takes all and uses all. There is no waste. When those resources are spent to breed new organisms on the next planet if the nids win not only do they recoup 100% of the resources spent but gain every new organic scrap.
No **** sherlock, but every single tyranid organism still needs nurishment to stay alive, from hormagaunt to hive ship.
Nurishment implies an expenditure of energy. The tyranids dont do that. If the fleet was expending energy then there would be organic waste. They dont have that. Which makes them self sustaining. Which means they dont require nurishment. If its a no gak that they spend nothing and only harvest then its a no gak that they dont need outside sources to keep going.
It doesn't matter if a codex tells me that they have eaten planet number 120340506, if in the main engagement narratives that actually matter to people they always lose. This was even a complaint about the 8th edition codex.
The thing is the status quo is always going to be maintained because no company would want to actually say "Ok lets just write off a whole faction due to lore because it would advance the story." They are never going to retire ultra marines because Tyranids ate their homeworld. It just won't happen. They "MIGHT" use it as an excuse in the lore to justify a purely business choice (army isn't selling and no value can be seen in investment to try and improve sales and thus its retired*).
So yeah if Tyranids eat their way to Terra you can bet they will lose the final battle; same as if Orks built a Waaagh big enough to do it or if Chaos got a Crusade there etc... AoS is actually exactly the same, if not actually worse at this stage, because at least in the 40K setting there are known key worlds like Cadia which have a meaning and importance. Right now AoS hasn't really got any such sites save for Realmgates. As a result they can wipe out whole cities and it has little to no real narrative effect because no one even knows where the heck it is on the map; nor its political and power relations. It's actually a huge complaint about the AoS setting that isn't helped by the fact that the setting itself is spread over several hundred years (from the Realmgate Wars to re-building after which is clearly at least multiple generations to have allowed cities to form and thrive and for people and even aelves to be raised without being under the yoke of Chaos).
IT's the fate of any wargame or other product tied lore in that its going to never change dramatically. You'll never see the Imperium of Man fall to nothing; or see Chaos rise to rule all or see Tyranids eat everyone etc... Heck because marketing is so tied into many lores you won't even see vast changes like the Emperor of Man being killed. Warmachine has toyed with going further in a few places -they've had one or two heroes change sides so that they've a Version 1 in one army and a new one in a different force. So there are ways to go further, but GW has never really gone there
*Interestingly I recall that whilst the Tyranids are famous for having "Eaten" the squats homeworld its actually a bit of lore that was never official, but has been repeated so many times in the community that its almost the general argument put forth.
I disagree, because if you read through the first AOS campaign books they killed off a recurring character after he thought it was a good idea to take on Archaon. I am not saying that home worlds should be devoured completely, but the Tyranids are unable to kill even ONE named character? Why do you think people were spitting curses that Dante took on a swarmlord and won?
Your whole post shows why such factions like nids and oldcrons are flawed to begin with, you can't take their narrative anywhere. They will be slapped around as a joke because of the status quo, hence why I think they changed necrons in the first place. You now see the undead robots doing interesting things, the whole threat of Tyranids and oldcrons was cool but that potential in my eyes was wasted because CHAOS is the bad guy we should be all scared of.
I don't want the ultramarines to fall or Terra to fall. But overall having such a faction that exists to be slapped by another kills their narrative on how scary they are. Show, don't tell.
Each grand alliance is getting their chance in the spot light to be a "threat" a credible one. Hence soul wars, malign portents and the aelven gods capturing slaanesh. Factions are not being overshadowed by each other, that's my point. I broke what I said in my last post but that's how I feel on the subject, this is just my opinion.
Lance845 wrote: Read any codex entry about them devouring a world. They make no waste. Every scrap of organic mater, every molecule of fluid, every atom of air is taken and recycled to breed more organisms.
Stop thinking about what a hormagaunt does to get its job done. The hormagaunt is a cell in a body not a body unto itself.
The tyranid body takes all and uses all. There is no waste. When those resources are spent to breed new organisms on the next planet if the nids win not only do they recoup 100% of the resources spent but gain every new organic scrap.
No **** sherlock, but every single tyranid organism still needs nurishment to stay alive, from hormagaunt to hive ship.
Nurishment implies an expenditure of energy. The tyranids dont do that.
Plz give me a quote from one of the codexes that proves that statement.
"If the fleet was expending energy then there would be organic waste. They dont have that.
So what you are saying is that the tyranids use zero energy?
You do understand that the expenditure of energy has no effect on the net amount of biomass, right? In the real world anyway.
Since they take every molecule of organic mater (and this part is me filling in the blanks) i assume they have a recycling ecosystem within themselves. At least on the hive ship level. This process uses X gas and produces Y and Z. Y is used in B process and Z is used in A process. The results of which recreate X gas.
Otherwise there would be molecules and compounds they can't use and would create waste. (Like us producing carbon dioxcide when we breath).
The hive ships/inner organisms shut down most of their processes during hibernation because they don't need to produce warrior organisms or living amunition. That doesnt mean the basic functions of the ecysystem shut down. You do know that when an animal hibernates it doesnt shut down all biological function right? It just slows it way down and or shuts down non essential functions.
Lance845 wrote: Since they take every molecule of organic mater (and this part is me filling in the blanks) i assume they have a recycling ecosystem within themselves. At least on the hive ship level. This process uses X gas and produces Y and Z. Y is used in B process and Z is used in A process. The results of which recreate X gas.
The system you are describing would need energy from an outside source if it is to keep running forever. I think that is the part you dont seem to understand.
You do know that when an animal hibernates it doesnt shut down all biological function right? It just slows it way down and or shuts down non essential functions.
Animals hibernate to save energi. That is the whole point of hibernation. You do know that, right?
What you just said is the argument people use to ask where the energy is coming from on earth. Not only that, but outside of our solar system ambient radiation sky rockets for unknown reasons. Its predicted that outside of the galaxy it does so again.
Voyager 1 found the drastic increase just outside our systems edge.
I suppose if you wanted to include ambient radiation as nourishment then yeah. Tyranids need "nourishment". But what they don't need is to feed on planets to sustain themselves. Only to grow their system.
Lance845 wrote: An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things.
This is an oversimplification of biology; animals do obtain food to survive but when presented with an excess of food they do not suddenly decide to stop eating & reproducing. Rats do not NEED to breed into the millions to survive, but they do it anyways because they are programmed to feth and eat our garbage.
What you just said is the argument people use to ask where the energy is coming from on earth.
Correct.
Now, will you please provide a quote on this from one of the tyranid codexes to prove your point? I have asked you 4 times now..
Up until now, this is just your fanfiction.
This is from the 4th edition.
All this is from the 8th ed codex. The only one that matters. Each codex replaces the previous with retcons and updates.
Pg 6.
They have journeyed across the unspeakable cold of the void, where time and space conspire to hold the stars apart with inconceivable distances. Yet the tyranids crossed this expanse nontheless, moving through the empty darkness for countless millenia.
I.e. without nourishment because there is none in the space between galaxies.
Pg 8.
Read up about the tyran system. Not even a bacteria is found. If any waste were produced there would be a trail. There never is.
Pg 10.
Leaving nothing but an airless tomb behind. No waste.
So on. Find any reference in any story anywhere where anyone finds some kind of trail of matter left in the wake of a hive fleet. There is none. Not so much as the faint whisper of a fart.
So lets review the facts.
1) not opinion, the nids traveled across galaxies. They survived it without any food or nourishment to replenish them. Thousands of years (over 10k minimum) with no food or water while maintaining the ability to produce the organisms needed to devour a world including warriors, feeders, and the microbes and gak needed to make digestion pools.
2) no waste.
3) leviathan showed up from bellow the galactic disk fully stocked on biomass to produce warriors across thousands of worlds in a single sweeping attack that just about split the galactic disk. I.e. they didn't loose or need to replenish that biomass after their pan galactic trip
4) Every statement that mentions their hunger. Their nourishment. Its all conjecture. Statements from a 3rd party that are not the nids describing what the other races think of the nids while not knowing anything about them.
And then like i said, i fill in the blanks. If they are not producing waste and taking everything then they must have some kind of recycling internal system that keeps the matter doing what they need it to do without any real loss. Otherwise we would find tyranid gak. And since they travel in fleets that can blot out the stars there would be a lot of it. But there isn't.
Find ANY other reasonable explanation for this. Any. Anywhere.
Maybe the nids have found a way/are working on a way to utilize blanks/pariahs, since blanks would normally disrupt the hiveminds connection to the bugs, having a way around this while still proving effective against the demons of any warp entity would be a big help to the hive fleets. Could be they are seeding the GSC that visit the planet with the pariah gene and seeing what succeeds and what fails miserably. The fact the necrons came up with the gene for the exact same counter to the warp is just a good setup for a Necron vs Nids showdown to me
CheerfulChump117 wrote: Maybe the nids have found a way/are working on a way to utilize blanks/pariahs, since blanks would normally disrupt the hiveminds connection to the bugs, having a way around this while still proving effective against the demons of any warp entity would be a big help to the hive fleets. Could be they are seeding the GSC that visit the planet with the pariah gene and seeing what succeeds and what fails miserably. The fact the necrons came up with the gene for the exact same counter to the warp is just a good setup for a Necron vs Nids showdown to me
Blanks and pariahs don't disrupt the hive mind. The hivemind does not use the warp to communicate through the synapse network. The shadow is a byproduct of the hive mind. Not the hive mind itself. Tyranid individual organisms have no presence in the warp to be disrupted because they have no souls.
CheerfulChump117 wrote: Maybe the nids have found a way/are working on a way to utilize blanks/pariahs, since blanks would normally disrupt the hiveminds connection to the bugs, having a way around this while still proving effective against the demons of any warp entity would be a big help to the hive fleets. Could be they are seeding the GSC that visit the planet with the pariah gene and seeing what succeeds and what fails miserably. The fact the necrons came up with the gene for the exact same counter to the warp is just a good setup for a Necron vs Nids showdown to me
Blanks and pariahs don't disrupt the hive mind. The hivemind does not use the warp to communicate through the synapse network. The shadow is a byproduct of the hive mind. Not the hive mind itself. Tyranid individual organisms have no presence in the warp to be disrupted because they have no souls.
I always thought souls, emotions, psychic abilities and presence in the warp were all different aspects of the same phenomenon. If not, then what the heck is a soul?
What you just said is the argument people use to ask where the energy is coming from on earth.
Correct.
Now, will you please provide a quote on this from one of the tyranid codexes to prove your point? I have asked you 4 times now..
Up until now, this is just your fanfiction.
This is from the 4th edition.
All this is from the 8th ed codex. The only one that matters. Each codex replaces the previous with retcons and updates.
Pg 6.
They have journeyed across the unspeakable cold of the void, where time and space conspire to hold the stars apart with inconceivable distances. Yet the tyranids crossed this expanse nontheless, moving through the empty darkness for countless millenia.
I.e. without nourishment because there is none in the space between galaxies.
Pg 8.
Read up about the tyran system. Not even a bacteria is found. If any waste were produced there would be a trail. There never is.
Pg 10.
Leaving nothing but an airless tomb behind. No waste.
So on. Find any reference in any story anywhere where anyone finds some kind of trail of matter left in the wake of a hive fleet. There is none. Not so much as the faint whisper of a fart.
So lets review the facts.
1) not opinion, the nids traveled across galaxies. They survived it without any food or nourishment to replenish them. Thousands of years (over 10k minimum) with no food or water while maintaining the ability to produce the organisms needed to devour a world including warriors, feeders, and the microbes and gak needed to make digestion pools.
2) no waste.
3) leviathan showed up from bellow the galactic disk fully stocked on biomass to produce warriors across thousands of worlds in a single sweeping attack that just about split the galactic disk. I.e. they didn't loose or need to replenish that biomass after their pan galactic trip
4) Every statement that mentions their hunger. Their nourishment. Its all conjecture. Statements from a 3rd party that are not the nids describing what the other races think of the nids while not knowing anything about them.
And then like i said, i fill in the blanks. If they are not producing waste and taking everything then they must have some kind of recycling internal system that keeps the matter doing what they need it to do without any real loss. Otherwise we would find tyranid gak. And since they travel in fleets that can blot out the stars there would be a lot of it. But there isn't.
Find ANY other reasonable explanation for this. Any. Anywhere.
Just because Tyranids can completely strip the useful resources from a planet does not mean they have no waste. For a start, we know that Tyranid fleets are most vulnerable when they first enter the galaxy, and they usually try to avoid heavily-fortified worlds in this time to replenish... something. Perhaps it is just energy, not biomass.
Secondly, a scorched earth strategy has proven effective at slowing down Hive fleets and weakening them- Kryptmann got excommunicated for it, but his strategies did weaken and damage much of Hive Fleet Leviathan. This suggests that without constant resupply of... something, Hive fleets do weaken, apparently in particular after long interstellar journeys. It can't be simply energy, because they could replenish from a dead world that has received exterminatus, or any number of lifeless solar systems. We also know that Tyranids prioritise high-yield worlds over other options if possible, even though they can still strip plenty of useful resources from a lifeless world- Hive fleets even leech minerals out of the crusts of planets they devour.
Elements vital to life- carbon, hydrogen etc- are far more abundant in the galaxy than life using them. Why do Hive fleets not just nom a bunch of lifeless, undefended worlds in the depths of space to gain organic materials to grow their fleets before they finally overwhelm the life ofbthe galaxy with unstoppable numbers?
All their actions suggest a sense of urgency, or they would play the long game and nom lifeless systems instead of defended high-yield systems. This suggests two things. Either the Tyranids do need to eat regularly to maintain a growimg fleet, and the crossing of the void between galaxies seriously hurts them, or they are runing from something even more nasty and cannot afford to hang around systematically nomnoming every last scrap.
As a hypothetical, perhaps they loose biomass and energy whilst they do their gravity jump thing, so they are in a constant battle against that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further to the above, we also know that Tyranids avoid certain situations if they can help it, at least until they are strong enough to deal with it efficiently or, presumably, the risk-reward ratio is sufficiently in their favour.
A good example is Tomb worlds- Hive fleets generally try to avoid these. They must be low yield, as Tomb worlds are often barren, and the weapons of the Necrons likely irreversible cost attacking fleets biomass.
I see no reason why Tyranids can recover all of their biomass losses when taking a world either. We know Tyranids to not consume everything, because they leave a ball of rock. Therefore there are resources that Tyranids cannot consume, are not worth the effort to consume, or simply are not useful to Tyranids. So everytime a 'Nid gets hit by a sufficiently powerful weapon from basically any race, the 'Nid biomass is going to undergo some nuclear reactions and some of it will become unrecoverable elements. Plasma weaponry is likely to do this, as well as fusion and fission weapons, and potentially even very high-powered laser weapons, like Titan-grade ones. Vortex and distortion weaponry will also obviously cause irretrievably biomass loss.
Therefore, every engagement is going to result in some Tyranid biomass being converted into useless forms. Particularly stubborn planets could even result in a net loss for an attacking fleet if they have devasting weaponry on hand. Fleet actions are likely to be especially costly- not only is almost every ship-grade weapon going to be of sufficient power to cause biomass loss (Imperial ships routinely using fusion-plasma warheads, fissile warheads and even vortex weaponry), but some debris will be scattered into the void and become impractical to recover. This may explain why Tyranids are extremely aggressive in fleet actions, because firepower duels hurt them far more in the long run than boarding actions and melee.
Essentially there is no guarantee Tyranid forces can recover lost biomass upon victory within a system, and this risk is increased in some scenarios (Necrons, Eldar, void battles for example). This provides another incentive to feed.
CheerfulChump117 wrote: Maybe the nids have found a way/are working on a way to utilize blanks/pariahs, since blanks would normally disrupt the hiveminds connection to the bugs, having a way around this while still proving effective against the demons of any warp entity would be a big help to the hive fleets. Could be they are seeding the GSC that visit the planet with the pariah gene and seeing what succeeds and what fails miserably. The fact the necrons came up with the gene for the exact same counter to the warp is just a good setup for a Necron vs Nids showdown to me
Blanks and pariahs don't disrupt the hive mind. The hivemind does not use the warp to communicate through the synapse network. The shadow is a byproduct of the hive mind. Not the hive mind itself. Tyranid individual organisms have no presence in the warp to be disrupted because they have no souls.
I always thought souls, emotions, psychic abilities and presence in the warp were all different aspects of the same phenomenon. If not, then what the heck is a soul?
Ish. The Tau have emotions but are not the least bit psychic and thus have no real presence in the warp to sustain deamons. Their souls are small and insignificant.
But the Nids don't have little. They have none. And the hive mind is not a psychic network in the way that other races are psychic. Nids even used to have a rule where they could not fail/take damage for manifesting powers because their powers were not warp based. Then they just explained it as not being a backlash from the Warp but instead being a surge in the hive minds synaptic web. Mentions of that in the codex have just kind of dropped off now. But it's not super important. What is important is that the Hive Mind does not exist in the Warp. It simply casts a shadow into it.
Just because Tyranids can completely strip the useful resources from a planet does not mean they have no waste. For a start, we know that Tyranid fleets are most vulnerable when they first enter the galaxy, and they usually try to avoid heavily-fortified worlds in this time to replenish... something. Perhaps it is just energy, not biomass.
No, before Leviathan humanity ASSUMED that. But Leviathan proves it false. Leviathan entered the galaxy ready to go.
Secondly, a scorched earth strategy has proven effective at slowing down Hive fleets and weakening them- Kryptmann got excommunicated for it, but his strategies did weaken and damage much of Hive Fleet Leviathan. This suggests that without constant resupply of... something, Hive fleets do weaken, apparently in particular after long interstellar journeys. It can't be simply energy, because they could replenish from a dead world that has received exterminatus, or any number of lifeless solar systems. We also know that Tyranids prioritise high-yield worlds over other options if possible, even though they can still strip plenty of useful resources from a lifeless world- Hive fleets even leech minerals out of the crusts of planets they devour.
Kryptman did not weaken or slow down the tendril of Leviathan. He redirected it into the orks where they have been fighting in Octarius non stop since. Yes. Tyranids DO prioritize high yield worlds. That doesn't imply hunger. That implies intelligent gathering of resources. See the mining iron explanation. The Hive Mind CHOOSES to strip mine worlds since we now know it's NOT strip mining some. And we know it CHOOSES to strip mine worlds with lots of resources over worlds with little resources. It sounds like a driving intelligence with a galactic scale plan. Not a ravenous beast.
Elements vital to life- carbon, hydrogen etc- are far more abundant in the galaxy than life using them. Why do Hive fleets not just nom a bunch of lifeless, undefended worlds in the depths of space to gain organic materials to grow their fleets before they finally overwhelm the life ofbthe galaxy with unstoppable numbers?
In the past they have simply gone after whatever source was best/closest. A galactic scale predator doesn't seam particularly put off by planetary civilizations. And then again, the Hive mind is so alien that trying to figure out WHY it does the things it does is one of the problems.
All their actions suggest a sense of urgency, or they would play the long game and nom lifeless systems instead of defended high-yield systems. This suggests two things. Either the Tyranids do need to eat regularly to maintain a growimg fleet, and the crossing of the void between galaxies seriously hurts them, or they are runing from something even more nasty and cannot afford to hang around systematically nomnoming every last scrap.
Having hive fleets trickle in over centuries isn't much of an urgency. But good repeating of humanities theories about what they think the nids are doing.
As a hypothetical, perhaps they loose biomass and energy whilst they do their gravity jump thing, so they are in a constant battle against that.
It's a hypothetical with no real evidence to back it up.
A hypothetical. Perhaps grass is not really green but red, it's simply our minds that perceive it as green?
Further to the above, we also know that Tyranids avoid certain situations if they can help it, at least until they are strong enough to deal with it efficiently or, presumably, the risk-reward ratio is sufficiently in their favour.
A good example is Tomb worlds- Hive fleets generally try to avoid these. They must be low yield, as Tomb worlds are often barren, and the weapons of the Necrons likely irreversible cost attacking fleets biomass.
Again, this implies a strategic intelligence. Not hunger. If the nids loose in a battle over a planet they actually loose resources until they can overwhelm and take that planet back. If the Nids WIN on a planet, they loose nothing and gain everything. If the ships were starving, if the great devourers ravenous endless hunger was actually what drove them the way that the 3rd party implies then these decisions would be based in that hunger. They don't appear to be.
I see no reason why Tyranids can recover all of their biomass losses when taking a world either. We know Tyranids to not consume everything, because they leave a ball of rock. Therefore there are resources that Tyranids cannot consume, are not worth the effort to consume, or simply are not useful to Tyranids. So everytime a 'Nid gets hit by a sufficiently powerful weapon from basically any race, the 'Nid biomass is going to undergo some nuclear reactions and some of it will become unrecoverable elements. Plasma weaponry is likely to do this, as well as fusion and fission weapons, and potentially even very high-powered laser weapons, like Titan-grade ones. Vortex and distortion weaponry will also obviously cause irretrievably biomass loss.
They consume all ORGANIC matter. Inorganic matter is left behind. Pull out your periodic table of elements and go over organic elements vs inorganic elements. Even if a necrons gauss weaponry breaks down a nid into it's base elements those elements are still organic. Boil away a nid into a cloud of gasses and those gasses are still made up of all the base organic elements needed to make a new nid.
Therefore, every engagement is going to result in some Tyranid biomass being converted into useless forms. Particularly stubborn planets could even result in a net loss for an attacking fleet if they have devasting weaponry on hand. Fleet actions are likely to be especially costly- not only is almost every ship-grade weapon going to be of sufficient power to cause biomass loss (Imperial ships routinely using fusion-plasma warheads, fissile warheads and even vortex weaponry), but some debris will be scattered into the void and become impractical to recover. This may explain why Tyranids are extremely aggressive in fleet actions, because firepower duels hurt them far more in the long run than boarding actions and melee.
Essentially there is no guarantee Tyranid forces can recover lost biomass upon victory within a system, and this risk is increased in some scenarios (Necrons, Eldar, void battles for example). This provides another incentive to feed.
The space battle part you have right at least but for only some of your reasons. First, and chunk that flies off into space DOES become less likely to be recovered any time soon. (but eventually... eventually). But the real reason for the aggression is that the troops don't matter. The hive ships that make the troops do. All the drama of the ultramarines fighting tooth and nail for every inch of land on maccragge is nonsense. Because none of it matters as long as the hive ships are still in the air.
It's what is happening in octarius. The orks fight the nids in x battle field while the nids use feeder organisms to gather biomass over in Y. Then they lead the battle over to Y while they gather up all the biomass from x. As long as they can recoup the losses (AND gain the orks biomass) they can do this forever. Unless the Orks decide to fight them in orbit they are not actually fighting them at all.
CheerfulChump117 wrote: Maybe the nids have found a way/are working on a way to utilize blanks/pariahs, since blanks would normally disrupt the hiveminds connection to the bugs, having a way around this while still proving effective against the demons of any warp entity would be a big help to the hive fleets. Could be they are seeding the GSC that visit the planet with the pariah gene and seeing what succeeds and what fails miserably. The fact the necrons came up with the gene for the exact same counter to the warp is just a good setup for a Necron vs Nids showdown to me
Blanks and pariahs don't disrupt the hive mind.
Jurgen disrupted their synapse in one of the Cain novels. He is/was a blank..
Not the hive mind itself. Tyranid individual organisms have no presence in the warp to be disrupted because they have no souls.
Weeeellllll actually...
"Codicier Laertamos, Brothers of the Red,’ the herald skull announced.
Scaraban shook his head. ‘I am sure its origins are in this realm of being. We are not alone in holding this opinion of its nature. The reports of Inquisitor Kryptmann, others in the Inquisition and the Magos Biologis suggest so, at least those that support this interpretation. Perhaps what we are seeing is a creature part-way to spiritual transcendence, a gestalt made of the minds of billions of brute animals trapped half in and half out of the warp by unending hunger?’ ‘You suggest we fight a god?’ scoffed a Space Marine of cadaverous appearance. His eyes were sunken in skin that looked dry as dust.
‘Carnifus, third captain, Blood Drinkers.’
‘Is there a better word for such a thing?’ said Mephiston.
‘Blasphemy,’ muttered Carnifus.
‘Then should we not take the fight to it psychically? Destroy the mind and the bodies will follow.’
‘Dammanes, seventh captain, Brothers of the Red,’ said the herald skull.
‘We cannot fight it in the warp, my brothers. Its presence there is so overwhelming that the Emperor himself would not prevail,’ said Dante. ‘When these things are separated from their mind, as has happened in my wars against them, be it by psychic or physical means, they remain alive, and savage, with a will and intelligence of their own to fall back on until they are enslaved again. The Leviathan must be killed in the flesh, then the mind will die, for the mind is generated by the creatures it guides. It is a thing of this world that is half in the next. That is its weakness. Its creatures seem endless, but kill enough of them, and the hive mind is weakened. Kill all of them, and it is over.’
‘But then it will not die until every last one of its vile spawn is destroyed!’"
Pg 6.
They have journeyed across the unspeakable cold of the void, where time and space conspire to hold the stars apart with inconceivable distances. Yet the tyranids crossed this expanse nontheless, moving through the empty darkness for countless millenia.
Yes, and on the same page its stated that ""Perhaps the Tyranids have already consumed everything of worth in their home galaxy and must find new feeding grounds or starve."....
I.e. without nourishment because there is none in the space between galaxies.
Hense why they need to hibernate on their journey...
4) Every statement that mentions their hunger. Their nourishment. Its all conjecture. Statements from a 3rd party that are not the nids describing what the other races think of the nids while not knowing anything about them.
No. This is the problem. YOU are making assumptions. NON of the gak you are CLAMING is stated in the fluff. The fact that they need nurishment/energy is stated again and again. End of story.
This will be my last respone, becaue you are clearly not going to change your mind, no matter what is stated in the actual fluff we have available...
Lance845 wrote: Since they take every molecule of organic mater (and this part is me filling in the blanks) i assume they have a recycling ecosystem within themselves. At least on the hive ship level. This process uses X gas and produces Y and Z. Y is used in B process and Z is used in A process. The results of which recreate X gas.
Otherwise there would be molecules and compounds they can't use and would create waste. (Like us producing carbon dioxcide when we breath).
The hive ships/inner organisms shut down most of their processes during hibernation because they don't need to produce warrior organisms or living amunition. That doesnt mean the basic functions of the ecysystem shut down. You do know that when an animal hibernates it doesnt shut down all biological function right? It just slows it way down and or shuts down non essential functions.
The codexes say that the hive fleets absorb all the stuff on the planet. I don't recollect them saying that the hive fleets don't poop.
Eating everything and not having waste are extremely different things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 100% use of material is in fact physically impossible.
CheerfulChump117 wrote: Maybe the nids have found a way/are working on a way to utilize blanks/pariahs, since blanks would normally disrupt the hiveminds connection to the bugs, having a way around this while still proving effective against the demons of any warp entity would be a big help to the hive fleets. Could be they are seeding the GSC that visit the planet with the pariah gene and seeing what succeeds and what fails miserably. The fact the necrons came up with the gene for the exact same counter to the warp is just a good setup for a Necron vs Nids showdown to me
Blanks and pariahs don't disrupt the hive mind.
Jurgen disrupted their synapse in one of the Cain novels. He is/was a blank..
Not the hive mind itself. Tyranid individual organisms have no presence in the warp to be disrupted because they have no souls.
Weeeellllll actually...
"Codicier Laertamos, Brothers of the Red,’ the herald skull announced.
Scaraban shook his head. ‘I am sure its origins are in this realm of being. We are not alone in holding this opinion of its nature. The reports of Inquisitor Kryptmann, others in the Inquisition and the Magos Biologis suggest so, at least those that support this interpretation. Perhaps what we are seeing is a creature part-way to spiritual transcendence, a gestalt made of the minds of billions of brute animals trapped half in and half out of the warp by unending hunger?’ ‘You suggest we fight a god?’ scoffed a Space Marine of cadaverous appearance. His eyes were sunken in skin that looked dry as dust.
‘Carnifus, third captain, Blood Drinkers.’
‘Is there a better word for such a thing?’ said Mephiston.
‘Blasphemy,’ muttered Carnifus.
‘Then should we not take the fight to it psychically? Destroy the mind and the bodies will follow.’
‘Dammanes, seventh captain, Brothers of the Red,’ said the herald skull.
‘We cannot fight it in the warp, my brothers. Its presence there is so overwhelming that the Emperor himself would not prevail,’ said Dante. ‘When these things are separated from their mind, as has happened in my wars against them, be it by psychic or physical means, they remain alive, and savage, with a will and intelligence of their own to fall back on until they are enslaved again. The Leviathan must be killed in the flesh, then the mind will die, for the mind is generated by the creatures it guides. It is a thing of this world that is half in the next. That is its weakness. Its creatures seem endless, but kill enough of them, and the hive mind is weakened. Kill all of them, and it is over.’
‘But then it will not die until every last one of its vile spawn is destroyed!’"
Pg 6.
They have journeyed across the unspeakable cold of the void, where time and space conspire to hold the stars apart with inconceivable distances. Yet the tyranids crossed this expanse nontheless, moving through the empty darkness for countless millenia.
Yes, and on the same page its stated that ""Perhaps the Tyranids have already consumed everything of worth in their home galaxy and must find new feeding grounds or starve."....
I.e. without nourishment because there is none in the space between galaxies.
Hense why they need to hibernate on their journey...
4) Every statement that mentions their hunger. Their nourishment. Its all conjecture. Statements from a 3rd party that are not the nids describing what the other races think of the nids while not knowing anything about them.
No. This is the problem. YOU are making assumptions. NON of the gak you are CLAMING is stated in the fluff. The fact that they need nurishment/energy is stated again and again. End of story.
This will be my last respone, becaue you are clearly not going to change your mind, no matter what is stated in the actual fluff we have available...
As stated already. The novels = officially published fan fiction. Until its in a codex its not really canon. But the bit from your book you quoted is a bunch of people discussing what they THINK it is. Not what they KNOW it is.
Also your quote from the codex starts with "perhaps". Meaning its speculative. Meaning its meaningless.
Lance845 wrote: Since they take every molecule of organic mater (and this part is me filling in the blanks) i assume they have a recycling ecosystem within themselves. At least on the hive ship level. This process uses X gas and produces Y and Z. Y is used in B process and Z is used in A process. The results of which recreate X gas.
Otherwise there would be molecules and compounds they can't use and would create waste. (Like us producing carbon dioxcide when we breath).
The hive ships/inner organisms shut down most of their processes during hibernation because they don't need to produce warrior organisms or living amunition. That doesnt mean the basic functions of the ecysystem shut down. You do know that when an animal hibernates it doesnt shut down all biological function right? It just slows it way down and or shuts down non essential functions.
The codexes say that the hive fleets absorb all the stuff on the planet. I don't recollect them saying that the hive fleets don't poop.
Eating everything and not having waste are extremely different things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 100% use of material is in fact physically impossible.
If they made waste people would find it and have evidence of the tyranids being there. They dont.
Know what else is impossible? Going to a realm made of thoughts and dreams and having those thoughts and dreams become sentient and attack real space. Its fantasy.
So, FWIW, you're both kinda right and you're both kinda wrong. You're also both using quotes to make points that go far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes.
IMO, it seems obvious that this new angle represents an uncompleted shift in the fluff, of an unknown magnitude. It also seems obvious that trying to explain the Tyranids, who are described as utterly alien and utterly incomprehensible, by making analogies to contemporary wildlife is necessarily futile and doomed.
Making concrete statements about any of it at this point is massively premature.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, FWIW, you're both kinda right and you're both kinda wrong. You're also both using quotes to make points that go far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes.
IMO, it seems obvious that this new angle represents an uncompleted shift in the fluff, of an unknown magnitude. It also seems obvious that trying to explain the Tyranids, who are described as utterly alien and utterly incomprehensible, by making analogies to contemporary wildlife is necessarily futile and doomed.
Making concrete statements about any of it at this point is massively premature.
Lance845 wrote: An animal hunts to survive. A animal lives to propagate. The tyranids clearly don't NEED to do any of those things.
This is an oversimplification of biology; animals do obtain food to survive but when presented with an excess of food they do not suddenly decide to stop eating & reproducing. Rats do not NEED to breed into the millions to survive, but they do it anyways because they are programmed to feth and eat our garbage.
An extremely small enclosed environment with no threats and food provided eithout effort is not at all similar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Excommunicatus wrote: So, FWIW, you're both kinda right and you're both kinda wrong. You're also both using quotes to make points that go far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes.
IMO, it seems obvious that this new angle represents an uncompleted shift in the fluff, of an unknown magnitude. It also seems obvious that trying to explain the Tyranids, who are described as utterly alien and utterly incomprehensible, by making analogies to contemporary wildlife is necessarily futile and doomed.
Making concrete statements about any of it at this point is massively premature.
I don't think it's a shift in the fluff any more than Cadia blowing up is a shift; it's just part of the continuing plot.
Just because Tyranids can completely strip the useful resources from a planet does not mean they have no waste. For a start, we know that Tyranid fleets are most vulnerable when they first enter the galaxy, and they usually try to avoid heavily-fortified worlds in this time to replenish... something. Perhaps it is just energy, not biomass.
No, before Leviathan humanity ASSUMED that. But Leviathan proves it false. Leviathan entered the galaxy ready to go.
You know this how? We know Leviathan entered from below the Galactic plain, but it was only discovered by the wider Imperium after noming a bunch of unimportant little frontier worlds, that were only noted to be in a patter by Kryptman's statistical analysis. We have no information of their strength at arrival beyomd the wide front they attacked on. The galaxy is not a disc, it bulges in the middle. There are still frontier worlds above and below the plane.
Secondly, a scorched earth strategy has proven effective at slowing down Hive fleets and weakening them- Kryptmann got excommunicated for it, but his strategies did weaken and damage much of Hive Fleet Leviathan. This suggests that without constant resupply of... something, Hive fleets do weaken, apparently in particular after long interstellar journeys. It can't be simply energy, because they could replenish from a dead world that has received exterminatus, or any number of lifeless solar systems. We also know that Tyranids prioritise high-yield worlds over other options if possible, even though they can still strip plenty of useful resources from a lifeless world- Hive fleets even leech minerals out of the crusts of planets they devour.
Kryptman did not weaken or slow down the tendril of Leviathan. He redirected it into the orks where they have been fighting in Octarius non stop since. Yes. Tyranids DO prioritize high yield worlds. That doesn't imply hunger. That implies intelligent gathering of resources. See the mining iron explanation. The Hive Mind CHOOSES to strip mine worlds since we now know it's NOT strip mining some. And we know it CHOOSES to strip mine worlds with lots of resources over worlds with little resources. It sounds like a driving intelligence with a galactic scale plan. Not a ravenous beast.
Elements vital to life- carbon, hydrogen etc- are far more abundant in the galaxy than life using them. Why do Hive fleets not just nom a bunch of lifeless, undefended worlds in the depths of space to gain organic materials to grow their fleets before they finally overwhelm the life ofbthe galaxy with unstoppable numbers?
In the past they have simply gone after whatever source was best/closest. A galactic scale predator doesn't seam particularly put off by planetary civilizations. And then again, the Hive mind is so alien that trying to figure out WHY it does the things it does is one of the problems.
All their actions suggest a sense of urgency, or they would play the long game and nom lifeless systems instead of defended high-yield systems. This suggests two things. Either the Tyranids do need to eat regularly to maintain a growimg fleet, and the crossing of the void between galaxies seriously hurts them, or they are runing from something even more nasty and cannot afford to hang around systematically nomnoming every last scrap.
Having hive fleets trickle in over centuries isn't much of an urgency. But good repeating of humanities theories about what they think the nids are doing.
As a hypothetical, perhaps they loose biomass and energy whilst they do their gravity jump thing, so they are in a constant battle against that.
It's a hypothetical with no real evidence to back it up.
A hypothetical. Perhaps grass is not really green but red, it's simply our minds that perceive it as green?
Further to the above, we also know that Tyranids avoid certain situations if they can help it, at least until they are strong enough to deal with it efficiently or, presumably, the risk-reward ratio is sufficiently in their favour.
A good example is Tomb worlds- Hive fleets generally try to avoid these. They must be low yield, as Tomb worlds are often barren, and the weapons of the Necrons likely irreversible cost attacking fleets biomass.
Again, this implies a strategic intelligence. Not hunger. If the nids loose in a battle over a planet they actually loose resources until they can overwhelm and take that planet back. If the Nids WIN on a planet, they loose nothing and gain everything. If the ships were starving, if the great devourers ravenous endless hunger was actually what drove them the way that the 3rd party implies then these decisions would be based in that hunger. They don't appear to be.
I see no reason why Tyranids can recover all of their biomass losses when taking a world either. We know Tyranids to not consume everything, because they leave a ball of rock. Therefore there are resources that Tyranids cannot consume, are not worth the effort to consume, or simply are not useful to Tyranids. So everytime a 'Nid gets hit by a sufficiently powerful weapon from basically any race, the 'Nid biomass is going to undergo some nuclear reactions and some of it will become unrecoverable elements. Plasma weaponry is likely to do this, as well as fusion and fission weapons, and potentially even very high-powered laser weapons, like Titan-grade ones. Vortex and distortion weaponry will also obviously cause irretrievably biomass loss.
They consume all ORGANIC matter. Inorganic matter is left behind. Pull out your periodic table of elements and go over organic elements vs inorganic elements. Even if a necrons gauss weaponry breaks down a nid into it's base elements those elements are still organic. Boil away a nid into a cloud of gasses and those gasses are still made up of all the base organic elements needed to make a new nid.
Therefore, every engagement is going to result in some Tyranid biomass being converted into useless forms. Particularly stubborn planets could even result in a net loss for an attacking fleet if they have devasting weaponry on hand. Fleet actions are likely to be especially costly- not only is almost every ship-grade weapon going to be of sufficient power to cause biomass loss (Imperial ships routinely using fusion-plasma warheads, fissile warheads and even vortex weaponry), but some debris will be scattered into the void and become impractical to recover. This may explain why Tyranids are extremely aggressive in fleet actions, because firepower duels hurt them far more in the long run than boarding actions and melee.
Essentially there is no guarantee Tyranid forces can recover lost biomass upon victory within a system, and this risk is increased in some scenarios (Necrons, Eldar, void battles for example). This provides another incentive to feed.
The space battle part you have right at least but for only some of your reasons. First, and chunk that flies off into space DOES become less likely to be recovered any time soon. (but eventually... eventually). But the real reason for the aggression is that the troops don't matter. The hive ships that make the troops do. All the drama of the ultramarines fighting tooth and nail for every inch of land on maccragge is nonsense. Because none of it matters as long as the hive ships are still in the air.
It's what is happening in octarius. The orks fight the nids in x battle field while the nids use feeder organisms to gather biomass over in Y. Then they lead the battle over to Y while they gather up all the biomass from x. As long as they can recoup the losses (AND gain the orks biomass) they can do this forever. Unless the Orks decide to fight them in orbit they are not actually fighting them at all.
Before Kryptman created the Octarius war, he created the galactic cordon, which "slowed Leviathan's advance to a crawl". This was a policy of using Exterminatus on worlds invaded by the Tyranids to destroy the biomass invested, and in the path of the Tyranids in general. Together, this seems to have notably weakened Leviathan. The primary reason this policy was dropped is it was also weakening the Imperium in the process by killing billions.
I wasn't arguing the Tyranids weren't intelligent? Only that they have some notable limitations on their behaviour which pushes them to seek high-yield worlds over eating everything.
High yield systems = life, which generally means combat and biomass losses. I am fully aware that the Tyranids seek organic compounds, but life is only a minute proportion of organic material within the galaxy. If efficiency was the main concern, the Hive fleets would avoid systems with life, and just target the lifeless systems to leech the methane and hydrogen present within them. Organic compounds do not need to come from life- they exist all over our own solar system currently for example, as well as the building blocks. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Milky Way, with carbon the 4th most abundant. Tyranids have absolutely no need to target worlds with life- they can get all their resources from dead systems easily. Methane fixation is present in our own biosphere, it will definitely be something the Tyranids are capable of. In this manner, the Tyranids could devour the majority of the galaxy before even getting into significant engagements, and their Hive fleets would be correspondingly bigger as a result when they finally steam-roll the sentient species.
I don't assume the Tyranids are dumb. Therefore, the very fact they are not adopting a strategy of eating lifeless worlds, but instead flit from high-risk-high-yield worlds bearing life (the entire purpose of GSCs being to mark out such worlds) suggests there are some severe time limitations on Tyranids, or they would play the slow game.
The piecemeal nature of the fleets arriving further supports this. A force with no time limitations would wait to gather all the fleets together at the edge of the galaxy, then attack as one unified mass. Yet the fleets rush in to attack as soon as they arrive? Considering various weapons and engagements do cause permanent biomass loss, this seems extremely foolhardy for such a vast intelligence if there are no time constraints on gathering biomass.
Regarding those weapons, I was specifically referring to weaponry that either pulls targets into the warp, or can change them at the atomic level. Plasma weaponry, for example, is typically described as harnessing the power of a small sun. Whilst this is hybedbolic, there is no reason to assume that the plasma weaponry does not cause some atomic reactions in targets. Especially in starship-grade weapons, which essentially fire fusion reactors at enemies- any biomass hit by these is going to suffer a degree of nuclear reactions resulting in different elements. Many of which will be of limited use to the Tyranids at best. Each fleet engagement is guaranteed to cause biomass-loss through the devastating weaponry employed.
Gauss may not be sufficient if it only pulls apart the target to the atomic level, true.
Also, there is absolutely no way a Hive fleet can sweep the entiriety of a system to recover biomass blasted into space. The volume that would need to be filtered is mindbogglingly vast even within a certain proximity to a fleet engagement, and some of the fragments will be moving at relativistic speeds. Totally unfeasible. The Tyranids have not shown any desire whatsoever to absorb every last bit of biomass, organic material, and other useful resources available, only the choicest morsels.
The Tyranids are an extremely grave threat, but they are not invincible, and a requirement to constantly engage in high-yield biomass harvesting does seem to be a weakness. Otherwise, there is no way to explain such risky behaviour for such an intelligent organism- the only other alternative is that it is some kind of sport or entertainment.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, FWIW, you're both kinda right and you're both kinda wrong. You're also both using quotes to make points that go far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes.
I have - very simply - stated that the hive fleets need nurishment/energy to stay alive/keep going. And I have provided quote after quote like the one below. How is that "going far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes"?
What Lance845 is doing is going FAR beyond what is stated in his quotes - or rather the lack thereof.
When he claims that the tyranids clearly produce no waste just because it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff, its an ASSUMPTION - because we dont know.
When he claims that the tyranids have no need of energy because they are probably getting it from the sun - although it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff - its an ASSUMPTION.... etc..
I am not making any assumptions. I am LITERALLY REFRENCING what is stated in the ******* dexes/BL novels.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, FWIW, you're both kinda right and you're both kinda wrong. You're also both using quotes to make points that go far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes.
I have - very simply - stated that the hive fleets need nurishment/energy to stay alive/keep going. And I have provided quote after quote like the one below. How is that "going far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes"?
What Lance845 is doing is going FAR beyond what is stated in his quotes - or rather the lack thereof.
When he claims that the tyranids clearly produce no waste just because it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff, its an ASSUMPTION - because we dont know.
When he claims that the tyranids have no need of energy because they are probably getting it from the sun - although it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff - its an ASSUMPTION.... etc..
I am not making any assumptions. I am LITERALLY REFRENCING what is stated in the ******* dexes/BL novels.
Relax guy. For what it's worth, you're winning the debate, but it's probably not worth getting worked up over.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, FWIW, you're both kinda right and you're both kinda wrong. You're also both using quotes to make points that go far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes.
I have - very simply - stated that the hive fleets need nurishment/energy to stay alive/keep going. And I have provided quote after quote like the one below. How is that "going far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes"?
What Lance845 is doing is going FAR beyond what is stated in his quotes - or rather the lack thereof.
When he claims that the tyranids clearly produce no waste just because it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff, its an ASSUMPTION - because we dont know.
When he claims that the tyranids have no need of energy because they are probably getting it from the sun - although it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff - its an ASSUMPTION.... etc..
I am not making any assumptions. I am LITERALLY REFRENCING what is stated in the ******* dexes/BL novels.
It's not enough to provide quote after quote if the quotes don't mean anything. Black Library is nonsense. Stop using it.
Older codexes are equally nonsense (though MILES better then BL) since each edition likes to retcon stuff.
And any quote that begins with "Perhaps" or poses a question or throws out theory after theory about what the nids COULD be doing or why is more nonsense.
For instance, every codex poses the theory that the nids could be running from an even bigger threat. They are not. The Pharos Device is canon. It woke them up from hibernation and drew the attention of the hive mind. They were not running when it went off. They are not running now that they have arrived. The running bit is just conjecture. You could quote it from 20 sources it still wouldn't give it any weight.
I didn't say Nids get their energy from the sun. I said the Nids probably have their own internal eco system on the hive ship level. A ecosystem does suffer from entropy. So... like the earth, in order to maintain a constant they need an external source of energy. (as was pointed out by someone else) Radiation from our sun is what does it for us. Background radiation in space COULD explain it for nids. I have been quick to point out where I fill in the blanks and where I get my basic facts to fill in those blanks from.
There are a FEW constants that are corroborated from multiple sources. Not theories. Things that we know are happening/happen in the fluff. The Nids leaving no evidence but dead husk worlds is one of those things. So.... ? Whats the obvious conclusion to that? 2 + 2 man.
Just because Tyranids can completely strip the useful resources from a planet does not mean they have no waste. For a start, we know that Tyranid fleets are most vulnerable when they first enter the galaxy, and they usually try to avoid heavily-fortified worlds in this time to replenish... something. Perhaps it is just energy, not biomass.
No, before Leviathan humanity ASSUMED that. But Leviathan proves it false. Leviathan entered the galaxy ready to go.
You know this how? We know Leviathan entered from below the Galactic plain, but it was only discovered by the wider Imperium after noming a bunch of unimportant little frontier worlds, that were only noted to be in a patter by Kryptman's statistical analysis. We have no information of their strength at arrival beyomd the wide front they attacked on. The galaxy is not a disc, it bulges in the middle. There are still frontier worlds above and below the plane.
Secondly, a scorched earth strategy has proven effective at slowing down Hive fleets and weakening them- Kryptmann got excommunicated for it, but his strategies did weaken and damage much of Hive Fleet Leviathan. This suggests that without constant resupply of... something, Hive fleets do weaken, apparently in particular after long interstellar journeys. It can't be simply energy, because they could replenish from a dead world that has received exterminatus, or any number of lifeless solar systems. We also know that Tyranids prioritise high-yield worlds over other options if possible, even though they can still strip plenty of useful resources from a lifeless world- Hive fleets even leech minerals out of the crusts of planets they devour.
Kryptman did not weaken or slow down the tendril of Leviathan. He redirected it into the orks where they have been fighting in Octarius non stop since. Yes. Tyranids DO prioritize high yield worlds. That doesn't imply hunger. That implies intelligent gathering of resources. See the mining iron explanation. The Hive Mind CHOOSES to strip mine worlds since we now know it's NOT strip mining some. And we know it CHOOSES to strip mine worlds with lots of resources over worlds with little resources. It sounds like a driving intelligence with a galactic scale plan. Not a ravenous beast.
Elements vital to life- carbon, hydrogen etc- are far more abundant in the galaxy than life using them. Why do Hive fleets not just nom a bunch of lifeless, undefended worlds in the depths of space to gain organic materials to grow their fleets before they finally overwhelm the life ofbthe galaxy with unstoppable numbers?
In the past they have simply gone after whatever source was best/closest. A galactic scale predator doesn't seam particularly put off by planetary civilizations. And then again, the Hive mind is so alien that trying to figure out WHY it does the things it does is one of the problems.
All their actions suggest a sense of urgency, or they would play the long game and nom lifeless systems instead of defended high-yield systems. This suggests two things. Either the Tyranids do need to eat regularly to maintain a growimg fleet, and the crossing of the void between galaxies seriously hurts them, or they are runing from something even more nasty and cannot afford to hang around systematically nomnoming every last scrap.
Having hive fleets trickle in over centuries isn't much of an urgency. But good repeating of humanities theories about what they think the nids are doing.
As a hypothetical, perhaps they loose biomass and energy whilst they do their gravity jump thing, so they are in a constant battle against that.
It's a hypothetical with no real evidence to back it up.
A hypothetical. Perhaps grass is not really green but red, it's simply our minds that perceive it as green?
Further to the above, we also know that Tyranids avoid certain situations if they can help it, at least until they are strong enough to deal with it efficiently or, presumably, the risk-reward ratio is sufficiently in their favour.
A good example is Tomb worlds- Hive fleets generally try to avoid these. They must be low yield, as Tomb worlds are often barren, and the weapons of the Necrons likely irreversible cost attacking fleets biomass.
Again, this implies a strategic intelligence. Not hunger. If the nids loose in a battle over a planet they actually loose resources until they can overwhelm and take that planet back. If the Nids WIN on a planet, they loose nothing and gain everything. If the ships were starving, if the great devourers ravenous endless hunger was actually what drove them the way that the 3rd party implies then these decisions would be based in that hunger. They don't appear to be.
I see no reason why Tyranids can recover all of their biomass losses when taking a world either. We know Tyranids to not consume everything, because they leave a ball of rock. Therefore there are resources that Tyranids cannot consume, are not worth the effort to consume, or simply are not useful to Tyranids. So everytime a 'Nid gets hit by a sufficiently powerful weapon from basically any race, the 'Nid biomass is going to undergo some nuclear reactions and some of it will become unrecoverable elements. Plasma weaponry is likely to do this, as well as fusion and fission weapons, and potentially even very high-powered laser weapons, like Titan-grade ones. Vortex and distortion weaponry will also obviously cause irretrievably biomass loss.
They consume all ORGANIC matter. Inorganic matter is left behind. Pull out your periodic table of elements and go over organic elements vs inorganic elements. Even if a necrons gauss weaponry breaks down a nid into it's base elements those elements are still organic. Boil away a nid into a cloud of gasses and those gasses are still made up of all the base organic elements needed to make a new nid.
Therefore, every engagement is going to result in some Tyranid biomass being converted into useless forms. Particularly stubborn planets could even result in a net loss for an attacking fleet if they have devasting weaponry on hand. Fleet actions are likely to be especially costly- not only is almost every ship-grade weapon going to be of sufficient power to cause biomass loss (Imperial ships routinely using fusion-plasma warheads, fissile warheads and even vortex weaponry), but some debris will be scattered into the void and become impractical to recover. This may explain why Tyranids are extremely aggressive in fleet actions, because firepower duels hurt them far more in the long run than boarding actions and melee.
Essentially there is no guarantee Tyranid forces can recover lost biomass upon victory within a system, and this risk is increased in some scenarios (Necrons, Eldar, void battles for example). This provides another incentive to feed.
The space battle part you have right at least but for only some of your reasons. First, and chunk that flies off into space DOES become less likely to be recovered any time soon. (but eventually... eventually). But the real reason for the aggression is that the troops don't matter. The hive ships that make the troops do. All the drama of the ultramarines fighting tooth and nail for every inch of land on maccragge is nonsense. Because none of it matters as long as the hive ships are still in the air.
It's what is happening in octarius. The orks fight the nids in x battle field while the nids use feeder organisms to gather biomass over in Y. Then they lead the battle over to Y while they gather up all the biomass from x. As long as they can recoup the losses (AND gain the orks biomass) they can do this forever. Unless the Orks decide to fight them in orbit they are not actually fighting them at all.
Before Kryptman created the Octarius war, he created the galactic cordon, which "slowed Leviathan's advance to a crawl". This was a policy of using Exterminatus on worlds invaded by the Tyranids to destroy the biomass invested, and in the path of the Tyranids in general. Together, this seems to have notably weakened Leviathan. The primary reason this policy was dropped is it was also weakening the Imperium in the process by killing billions.
I wasn't arguing the Tyranids weren't intelligent? Only that they have some notable limitations on their behaviour which pushes them to seek high-yield worlds over eating everything.
High yield systems = life, which generally means combat and biomass losses. I am fully aware that the Tyranids seek organic compounds, but life is only a minute proportion of organic material within the galaxy. If efficiency was the main concern, the Hive fleets would avoid systems with life, and just target the lifeless systems to leech the methane and hydrogen present within them. Organic compounds do not need to come from life- they exist all over our own solar system currently for example, as well as the building blocks. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Milky Way, with carbon the 4th most abundant. Tyranids have absolutely no need to target worlds with life- they can get all their resources from dead systems easily. Methane fixation is present in our own biosphere, it will definitely be something the Tyranids are capable of. In this manner, the Tyranids could devour the majority of the galaxy before even getting into significant engagements, and their Hive fleets would be correspondingly bigger as a result when they finally steam-roll the sentient species.
I don't assume the Tyranids are dumb. Therefore, the very fact they are not adopting a strategy of eating lifeless worlds, but instead flit from high-risk-high-yield worlds bearing life (the entire purpose of GSCs being to mark out such worlds) suggests there are some severe time limitations on Tyranids, or they would play the slow game.
The piecemeal nature of the fleets arriving further supports this. A force with no time limitations would wait to gather all the fleets together at the edge of the galaxy, then attack as one unified mass. Yet the fleets rush in to attack as soon as they arrive? Considering various weapons and engagements do cause permanent biomass loss, this seems extremely foolhardy for such a vast intelligence if there are no time constraints on gathering biomass.
Regarding those weapons, I was specifically referring to weaponry that either pulls targets into the warp, or can change them at the atomic level. Plasma weaponry, for example, is typically described as harnessing the power of a small sun. Whilst this is hybedbolic, there is no reason to assume that the plasma weaponry does not cause some atomic reactions in targets. Especially in starship-grade weapons, which essentially fire fusion reactors at enemies- any biomass hit by these is going to suffer a degree of nuclear reactions resulting in different elements. Many of which will be of limited use to the Tyranids at best. Each fleet engagement is guaranteed to cause biomass-loss through the devastating weaponry employed.
Gauss may not be sufficient if it only pulls apart the target to the atomic level, true.
Also, there is absolutely no way a Hive fleet can sweep the entiriety of a system to recover biomass blasted into space. The volume that would need to be filtered is mindbogglingly vast even within a certain proximity to a fleet engagement, and some of the fragments will be moving at relativistic speeds. Totally unfeasible. The Tyranids have not shown any desire whatsoever to absorb every last bit of biomass, organic material, and other useful resources available, only the choicest morsels.
The Tyranids are an extremely grave threat, but they are not invincible, and a requirement to constantly engage in high-yield biomass harvesting does seem to be a weakness. Otherwise, there is no way to explain such risky behaviour for such an intelligent organism- the only other alternative is that it is some kind of sport or entertainment.
Or you could explain it by the nids just not giving a gak. This reminds me of the first reaper from mass effect. The cold passive way in which it addresses everyone. "You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it." You talk about tactics like 2 armadas meeting in space. A massive war on a galactic scale. But what if thats not the game the Nids are playing? It's a galactic predator. The individual battles. The armies it faces. They are not armies to it. They are not battles. It's not war.
The nids seem to be dealing with things on a larger scale. Yes. It CAN focus down to our level with things like the swarm lord. But the Hive Mind for all intents and purposes looks like a GALACTIC predator. Not a world eater. Not a system eater. A GALAXY eater.
Thats part of why it's so unknowable.
Stop applying our thoughts and practices to it's tactics and methods and wants. They don't apply.
I hope it never gets expanded, and stays the Tyranid version of the Necron Dyson Sphere which is being completely avoided by the Tyranids, but never completely explained. Used to be all the mysterious side-fluff elements were the best gems of 40k, and they get more boring the more they are expanded upon.
Excommunicatus wrote: So, FWIW, you're both kinda right and you're both kinda wrong. You're also both using quotes to make points that go far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes.
I have - very simply - stated that the hive fleets need nurishment/energy to stay alive/keep going. And I have provided quote after quote like the one below. How is that "going far beyond what is actually provided for in the said quotes"?
What Lance845 is doing is going FAR beyond what is stated in his quotes - or rather the lack thereof.
When he claims that the tyranids clearly produce no waste just because it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff, its an ASSUMPTION - because we dont know.
When he claims that the tyranids have no need of energy because they are probably getting it from the sun - although it is not mentioned anywhere in the fluff - its an ASSUMPTION.... etc..
I am not making any assumptions. I am LITERALLY REFRENCING what is stated in the ******* dexes/BL novels.
It's not enough to provide quote after quote if the quotes don't mean anything. Black Library is nonsense. Stop using it.
The above quote is from a tyranid codex?
Older codexes are equally nonsense (though MILES better then BL) since each edition likes to retcon stuff.
..and the above quote has not beed retconned...
And any quote that begins with "Perhaps" or poses a question or throws out theory after theory about what the nids COULD be doing or why is more nonsense.
The above quote is just a clear statement. Should be as legit as it gets.
For instance, every codex poses the theory that the nids could be running from an even bigger threat. They are not. The Pharos Device is canon. It woke them up from hibernation and drew the attention of the hive mind. They were not running when it went off. They are not running now that they have arrived. The running bit is just conjecture. You could quote it from 20 sources it still wouldn't give it any weight.
The tyranids could still be running from something with the pharos device merly diverting them in our direction.
- but then again, the pharos device is from a BL book/s so it is cleay just noncannon fanfiction? Or does that only count when I quote a BL book?
I didn't say Nids get their energy from the sun. I said the Nids probably have their own internal eco system on the hive ship level. A ecosystem does suffer from entropy. So... like the earth, in order to maintain a constant they need an external source of energy. (as was pointed out by someone else) Radiation from our sun is what does it for us. Background radiation in space COULD explain it for nids. I have been quick to point out where I fill in the blanks and where I get my basic facts to fill in those blanks from.
They would require huge amouns of energy for that to work... and background radiation is named so because..?
Do you even science bro?
There are a FEW constants that are corroborated from multiple sources. Not theories. Things that we know are happening/happen in the fluff. The Nids leaving no evidence but dead husk worlds is one of those things. So.... ? Whats the obvious conclusion to that? 2 + 2 man.
They did produce waste in "the devastation of baal". But that is a BL book ofc..........
Lance845 wrote: I already explained how that quote was from a 3rd party.
The Pharos Device is in the 30k HH books too. Which makes them codex level canon. It didn't divert them. It woke them up.
Where is it mentioned that the HH books are anymore cannon than the rest? Do you have anything offical on that?
And yes, it woke them. Nothing is mentioned about their reason for leaving their galaxy. So we still dont know....
You realize the background radiation in space without an atmosphere to protect you is massive right?
We would die without an atmosphere do to the radiation from our native sun. But you are not talking about power directly from the sun, but cosmic background radiation. And that is not going to power jack****.
The nids seem to be dealing with things on a larger scale. Yes. It CAN focus down to our level with things like the swarm lord. But the Hive Mind for all intents and purposes looks like a GALACTIC predator. Not a world eater. Not a system eater. A GALAXY eater.
Thats part of why it's so unknowable.
Stop applying our thoughts and practices to it's tactics and methods and wants. They don't apply.
They have come to devour us all. Thats it.
Last quote under "the destroyer of worlds" in the 8th edition.
"Vast swathes of the galaxy have already been stripped of life, and with every passing year the hive fleets push deeper into regions of populated space. Even as the prey races direct their forces to repel these threats, still more Tyranid fleets approach from the intergalactic void and emerge from their aeons-long slumbers. The thought processes of the Hive Mind are gathering pace as more Tyranids wake and recall the age-old purpose of their kind – feed, grow, survive."
Lance845 wrote: I already explained how that quote was from a 3rd party.
The Pharos Device is in the 30k HH books too. Which makes them codex level canon. It didn't divert them. It woke them up.
Where is it mentioned that the HH books are anymore cannon than the rest? Do you have anything offical on that?
And yes, it woke them. Nothing is mentioned about their reason for leaving their galaxy. So we still dont know....
Sorry you misunderstood. Not the BLHH books. The FW 30k game books.
You realize the background radiation in space without an atmosphere to protect you is massive right?
We would die without an atmosphere do to the radiation from our native sun. But you are not talking about power directly from the sun, but cosmic background radiation. And that is not going to power jack****.
The background radiation in space is comprised of the energy from ALL suns. Do you think that stars just have thier energy... disappear out in the depths of space? We can SEE the stars so their light is reaching us. That should tell you something about the level of radiation out there.
The nids seem to be dealing with things on a larger scale. Yes. It CAN focus down to our level with things like the swarm lord. But the Hive Mind for all intents and purposes looks like a GALACTIC predator. Not a world eater. Not a system eater. A GALAXY eater.
Thats part of why it's so unknowable.
Stop applying our thoughts and practices to it's tactics and methods and wants. They don't apply.
They have come to devour us all. Thats it.
Last quote under "the destroyer of worlds" in the 8th edition.
"Vast swathes of the galaxy have already been stripped of life, and with every passing year the hive fleets push deeper into regions of populated space. Even as the prey races direct their forces to repel these threats, still more Tyranid fleets approach from the intergalactic void and emerge from their aeons-long slumbers. The thought processes of the Hive Mind are gathering pace as more Tyranids wake and recall the age-old purpose of their kind – feed, grow, survive."
Sorry you misunderstood. Not the BLHH books. The FW 30k game books.
Yes, and the fact that it allerted the tyranids to our galaxy is only mentioned in "Pharos" which is a BL novel. So clearly it is not cannon...
The background radiation in space is comprised of the energy from ALL suns. Do you think that stars just have thier energy... disappear out in the depths of space? We can SEE the stars so their light is reaching us. That should tell you something about the level of radiation out there.
Are you just trolling at this point? The radiation from suns outside our solarsystem is so minuscule
that it wouldent be able to power jack****.
Know what else is impossible? Going to a realm made of thoughts and dreams and having those thoughts and dreams become sentient and attack real space. Its fantasy.
Lance845 wrote: Stop applying our thoughts and practices to it's tactics and methods and wants. They don't apply.
But that is literally all you have done? You have made theories - using YOUR logic - based on scraps of lore and then presented them as the truth, because it makes sense TO YOU.
Yet by your own statement, your "facts/theories" are false by default. Because logic does not apply in a fanatasy setting? Or is anything possible? You seems to state both as true?
Its just bloody hilarious at this point.
"Vast swathes of the galaxy have already been stripped of life, and with every passing year the hive fleets push deeper into regions of populated space. Even as the prey races direct their forces to repel these threats, still more Tyranid fleets approach from the intergalactic void and emerge from their aeons-long slumbers. The thought processes of the Hive Mind are gathering pace as more Tyranids wake and recall the age-old purpose of their kind – feed, grow, survive."
The nids seem to be dealing with things on a larger scale. Yes. It CAN focus down to our level with things like the swarm lord. But the Hive Mind for all intents and purposes looks like a GALACTIC predator. Not a world eater. Not a system eater. A GALAXY eater.
Thats part of why it's so unknowable.
Codexes: The great devourer, the ultimate predator, eternal hunger, feed, grow survive etc.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I just know Guardsmen never have to take a crap because it isn't mentioned in the fluff.
We know Orks poop poop and Eldar poop crystals, but the rest of the races are a bunch of buttless freaks O.o
Regarding nid fluff and canon/not-canon, I'll be the one to say it; a lot (if not all) of these issues are due to poor and inconsistent writing, both in codexes and otherwise. Anything goes; we're both hyper-adaptable and can be out-adapted by a bunch of galactic newcomers switching weapons (just one example of many, slightly exaggerated to make a point). I find it best to rely on headcanon with this faction, taking the more recent fluff with a big grain of salt (or anything written after 3rd/4th for me).
NinthMusketeer wrote: I just know Guardsmen never have to take a crap because it isn't mentioned in the fluff.
Regarding nid fluff and canon/not-canon, I'll be the one to say it; a lot (if not all) of these issues are due to poor and inconsistent writing, both in codexes and otherwise.
I disagree. There has been many additions to the tyranid lore since 2nd/3rd edition, but we have seen very few inconsistencies and retcons.
Anything goes; we're both hyper-adaptable and can be out-adapted by a bunch of galactic newcomers switching weapons (just one example of many, slightly exaggerated to make a point)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I just know Guardsmen never have to take a crap because it isn't mentioned in the fluff.
Regarding nid fluff and canon/not-canon, I'll be the one to say it; a lot (if not all) of these issues are due to poor and inconsistent writing, both in codexes and otherwise.
I disagree. There has been many additions to the tyranid lore since 2nd/3rd edition, but we have seen very few inconsistencies and retcons.
Anything goes; we're both hyper-adaptable and can be out-adapted by a bunch of galactic newcomers switching weapons (just one example of many, slightly exaggerated to make a point)
What are you referencing here?
I was referencing Gorgon's defeat at the hands of the Tau. Rereading though it I see I misremembered the effectiveness of the Tau switching to older weapons/tactics to prevent Gorgon from succesfully adapting. The Tau won because they learned to shoot the big ones, which Gorgon had few of. That is well established as being effective. My bad.
Sorry you misunderstood. Not the BLHH books. The FW 30k game books.
Yes, and the fact that it allerted the tyranids to our galaxy is only mentioned in "Pharos" which is a BL novel. So clearly it is not cannon...
I COULD be wrong, (don't have those pdfs any more maybe somebody with the books can chime in) but I am pretty sure they off handedly mention a threat that would come back to threaten the galaxy much later. Seem to remember that.
The background radiation in space is comprised of the energy from ALL suns. Do you think that stars just have thier energy... disappear out in the depths of space? We can SEE the stars so their light is reaching us. That should tell you something about the level of radiation out there.
Are you just trolling at this point? The radiation from suns outside our solarsystem is so minuscule that it wouldent be able to power jack****.
The two Voyager spacecraft have explored the outer reaches of the heliosphere, passing through the termination shock and the heliosheath. NASA announced in 2013 that Voyager 1 had encountered the heliopause on August 25, 2012, when the spacecraft measured a sudden increase in plasma density of about forty times.[2] In 2018, NASA announced that Voyager 2 had traversed the heliopause on November 5 of that year.[3] Because the heliopause marks the boundary between matter originating from the Sun and matter originating from the rest of the galaxy, spacecraft such as the two Voyagers, which have departed the heliosphere, can be said to have reached interstellar space.
At a distance of about 113 AU, Voyager 1 detected a 'stagnation region' within the heliosheath.[43] In this region, the solar wind slowed to zero,[44][45][46][47] the magnetic field intensity doubled and high-energy electrons from the galaxy increased 100-fold.
The crossing of the heliopause should be signaled by a sharp drop in the temperature of charged particles,[45] a change in the direction of the magnetic field, and an increase in the number of galactic cosmic rays.[9] In May 2012, Voyager 1 detected a rapid increase in such cosmic rays (a 9% increase in a month, following a more gradual increase of 25% from Jan. 2009 to Jan. 2012), suggesting it was approaching the heliopause.
Solar winds within our system are nowhere near as powerful as the radiation outside it. Tyranids travel from system to system. And from galaxy to galaxy. Again, theoretically, the galaxy has similar barriers and the void between galaxies would increase again. Fortunetly the nids wouldn't require a power injection capable of sustaining an Earth sized planet. Just a series of bioships that can enter hibernation states to conserve energy.
Know what else is impossible? Going to a realm made of thoughts and dreams and having those thoughts and dreams become sentient and attack real space. Its fantasy.
Lance845 wrote: Stop applying our thoughts and practices to it's tactics and methods and wants. They don't apply.
But that is literally all you have done? You have made theories - using YOUR logic - based on scraps of lore and then presented them as the truth, because it makes sense TO YOU.
Yet by your own statement, your "facts/theories" are false by default. Because logic does not apply in a fanatasy setting? Or is anything possible? You seems to state both as true?
Its just bloody hilarious at this point.
"Vast swathes of the galaxy have already been stripped of life, and with every passing year the hive fleets push deeper into regions of populated space. Even as the prey races direct their forces to repel these threats, still more Tyranid fleets approach from the intergalactic void and emerge from their aeons-long slumbers. The thought processes of the Hive Mind are gathering pace as more Tyranids wake and recall the age-old purpose of their kind – feed, grow, survive."
The nids seem to be dealing with things on a larger scale. Yes. It CAN focus down to our level with things like the swarm lord. But the Hive Mind for all intents and purposes looks like a GALACTIC predator. Not a world eater. Not a system eater. A GALAXY eater.
Thats part of why it's so unknowable.
Codexes: The great devourer, the ultimate predator, eternal hunger, feed, grow survive etc.
Lance845: So unknowable..
This stuff just writes itself at this point.
The great devourer, the ultimate predator, eternal hunger, feed grow survive... all names other races give the tyranids. All motivations other races attribute to the tyranids. We have no lore that says what the tyranids call themselves. What it (the hive mind) thinks it's doing. THATS is why it's lovecradtian unknowable. In fact the lore often mentions how we don't really know. How we CAN'T know. How the nids are so far beyond our scope of understanding. Even your little conversation between space marines says as much.
I COULD be wrong, (don't have those pdfs any more maybe somebody with the books can chime in) but I am pretty sure they off handedly mention a threat that would come back to threaten the galaxy much later. Seem to remember that.
Could be? You ARE wrong.
Solar winds within our system are nowhere near as powerful as the radiation outside it. Tyranids travel from system to system. And from galaxy to galaxy. Again, theoretically, the galaxy has similar barriers and the void between galaxies would increase again. Fortunetly the nids wouldn't require a power injection capable of sustaining an Earth sized planet. Just a series of bioships that can enter hibernation states to conserve energy.
Ok, let me break this down to you so you can understand it. If you were to travel to the closet star outside our solar system - Proxima Centauri - traveling in the ISS, you would need a solarpanel the size of CALIFORNIA just to keep the station running...
The great devourer, the ultimate predator, eternal hunger, feed grow survive... all names other races give the tyranids. All motivations other races attribute to the tyranids. We have no lore that says what the tyranids call themselves. What it (the hive mind) thinks it's doing. THATS is why it's lovecradtian unknowable. In fact the lore often mentions how we don't really know. How we CAN'T know. How the nids are so far beyond our scope of understanding. Even your little conversation between space marines says as much.
Both mephistion and tigurius have been in contact with the hive mind, and all they felt was an undending hunger..
And ofc, we do have fluff on the hive minds thoughts and feelings, but that is not fluff to you, sadly....
I COULD be wrong, (don't have those pdfs any more maybe somebody with the books can chime in) but I am pretty sure they off handedly mention a threat that would come back to threaten the galaxy much later. Seem to remember that.
Could be? You ARE wrong.
Oh so you have the books? I would love a refresher. Mind quoting it to me? I realize you think I am being confrontational and this could be taken as sarcastic but I am being sincere.
Solar winds within our system are nowhere near as powerful as the radiation outside it. Tyranids travel from system to system. And from galaxy to galaxy. Again, theoretically, the galaxy has similar barriers and the void between galaxies would increase again. Fortunately the nids wouldn't require a power injection capable of sustaining an Earth sized planet. Just a series of bioships that can enter hibernation states to conserve energy.
Ok, let me break this down to you so you can understand it. If you were to travel to the closet star outside our solar system - Proxima Centauri - traveling in the ISS, you would need a solarpanel the size of CALIFORNIA just to keep the station running...
Jesus. Do you understand how solar panels work? Are you aware that they do not use the entire spectrum of light? Or that they ONLY use the wavelengths of visible light? (we can see less than half the spectrum btw) For instance, if you were to set up a solar panel in front of an x ray machine do you know how much power would be generated from that radiation? The answer is none. The amount of radiation in space and the size of the solar panel the international space station would need are 2 different things that have different factors contributing to them.
For all your simplistically trying to explain science to me you sure do seem to have a gak grasp of the various technologies and phenomena being discussed.
The great devourer, the ultimate predator, eternal hunger, feed grow survive... all names other races give the tyranids. All motivations other races attribute to the tyranids. We have no lore that says what the tyranids call themselves. What it (the hive mind) thinks it's doing. THATS is why it's lovecradtian unknowable. In fact the lore often mentions how we don't really know. How we CAN'T know. How the nids are so far beyond our scope of understanding. Even your little conversation between space marines says as much.
Both mephistion and tigurius have been in contact with the hive mind, and all they felt was an undending hunger..
And ofc, we do have fluff on the hive minds thoughts and feelings, but that is not fluff to you, sadly....
Correct. Not canon. Fluff wise 1 person (an ultramarine, of course, and something that contributed heavily to the ultrmarines being the super duper mary sues of all 40k) was able to touch the edges of the hive mind and survive and he barely got the impression of the fact that it was a hive mind. Everyone else goes mad and/or dies in the attempt. And most weaker psykers go mad and/or die just from the shadow before the tyranids even reach the planet.
Oh so you have the books? I would love a refresher. Mind quoting it to me? I realize you think I am being confrontational and this could be taken as sarcastic but I am being sincere.
I have the books, yes. If it is one of the volumes I have as pdf's, I can take a look now. Otherwise you will have to wait until I get home to my books.
Which volume do you want me to look up?
Jesus. Do you understand how solar panels work? Are you aware that they do not use the entire spectrum of light? Or that they ONLY use the wavelengths of visible light? (we can see less than half the spectrum btw) For instance, if you were to set up a solar panel in front of an x ray machine do you know how much power would be generated from that radiation? The answer is none. The amount of radiation in space and the size of the solar panel the international space station would need are 2 different things that have different factors contributing to them.
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Jesus ******* christ. Are you being ******* serious? Are you 5 years old? The distance between stars are unimaginable vast, making the VOLUME utterly uncomprehensible . So yes, the stars are sending all kinds of radiation into the void, but do to the volume of space, it equates to next to nothing.
You are pretty much stating that pouring a can of coke into the ocean, turns it into a new source of coke. Jesus christ.
Correct. Not canon. Fluff wise 1 person (an ultramarine, of course) was able to touch the edges of the hive mind and survive and he barely got the impression of the fact that it was a hive mind. Everyone else goes mad and/or dies in the attempt. And most weaker psykers go mad and/or die just from the shadow before the tyranids even reach the planet.
Both mephiston and tigurius have been in contact with the hive mind......
You might want to just drop it. I think Lance's lack of interest in logical process is well established and getting into profanity is just going to make you look bad no matter how clear the argument may be.
So, anyway, my money is on the hive fleet transforming into a giant , five-headed space dragon, and sending out the GSCs to found a religion and offer it blood and souls in sacrifice.
Voss wrote: So, anyway, my money is on the hive transforming into a giant , five-headed space dragon, and sending out the GSCs to found a religion and offer it blood and souls in sacrifice.
Ha! It would be great to see that!
Who knows that might be what the hive mind is aiming for.
NinthMusketeer wrote: You might want to just drop it. I think Lance's lack of interest in logical process is well established and getting into profanity is just going to make you look bad no matter how clear the argument may be.
The two Voyager spacecraft have explored the outer reaches of the heliosphere, passing through the termination shock and the heliosheath. NASA announced in 2013 that Voyager 1 had encountered the heliopause on August 25, 2012, when the spacecraft measured a sudden increase in plasma density of about forty times.[2] In 2018, NASA announced that Voyager 2 had traversed the heliopause on November 5 of that year.[3] Because the heliopause marks the boundary between matter originating from the Sun and matter originating from the rest of the galaxy, spacecraft such as the two Voyagers, which have departed the heliosphere, can be said to have reached interstellar space.
At a distance of about 113 AU, Voyager 1 detected a 'stagnation region' within the heliosheath.[43] In this region, the solar wind slowed to zero,[44][45][46][47] the magnetic field intensity doubled and high-energy electrons from the galaxy increased 100-fold.
The crossing of the heliopause should be signaled by a sharp drop in the temperature of charged particles,[45] a change in the direction of the magnetic field, and an increase in the number of galactic cosmic rays.[9] In May 2012, Voyager 1 detected a rapid increase in such cosmic rays (a 9% increase in a month, following a more gradual increase of 25% from Jan. 2009 to Jan. 2012), suggesting it was approaching the heliopause.
Solar winds within our system are nowhere near as powerful as the radiation outside it. Tyranids travel from system to system. And from galaxy to galaxy. Again, theoretically, the galaxy has similar barriers and the void between galaxies would increase again. Fortunetly the nids wouldn't require a power injection capable of sustaining an Earth sized planet. Just a series of bioships that can enter hibernation states to conserve energy.
You are aware that 40 (or even 100) times nearly zero is still zero?
The chart you linked actually illustrates it best, you know what the X axis is? Teilchen means 'particles'. Do you know how ridiculously tiny amount 40 particles per second is? A single electron weights 10^−31 kg. Multiply it by 100 and you still have zero dot twenty nine more zeros before getting to actual weight of the "powerful" shock...
osting the whole timeline together.
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