If a Deathwatch Infantry Character has the The Beacon Angelis Relic and starts the game in a Drop Pod or in the Teleportarium, when he arrives on the battlefield, can a unit then teleport to him using this relic? The rules for all three (Drop Pod Assault, Teleportarium, and The Beacon Angelis) say they happen at the end of the movement phase.
I wasn't sure if there was an order for end of the movement phase actions. In this scenario, at the end of the movement phase, the bearer of The Beacon Angelis has to be placed on the battlefield by either Teleporting or Drop Pod Assaulting. Then once on the field, also at the end of a movement phase, a unit can teleport to within 6" of the relic.
No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
I think I agree with this. If the beacon wasn't available at the start of the end of turn, then it can't be used in that end of turn phase.
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
If that were true you could never bring more than one unit in from off board per turn.
This feels a tad murky and like I’ve missed a memo, but if all have the same trigger, namely “at the end of the movement phase”, then you’d be free to sequence them as you choose.
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
I disagree. You can continue to add End of Movement Phase effects to the sequence while you are resolving it.
If that were true you could never bring more than one unit in from off board per turn.
This feels a tad murky and like I’ve missed a memo, but if all have the same trigger, namely “at the end of the movement phase”, then you’d be free to sequence them as you choose.
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
I disagree. You can continue to add End of Movement Phase effects to the sequence while you are resolving it.
No, you cannot. The end of the movement phase is a specific point in time. If you're not on the battlefield at the end of the phase you can't activate end of the phase abilities, because if you do then you illegally did the previous action before the end of the phase. The only reason we can even resolve multiple end of phase effects at once e.g. multiple simultaneous deep strikes is because the sequencing rule exists.
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
If that were true you could never bring more than one unit in from off board per turn.
This feels a tad murky and like I’ve missed a memo, but if all have the same trigger, namely “at the end of the movement phase”, then you’d be free to sequence them as you choose.
You can bring multiple unit in, but you have to declare all the units you are bringing in (along with any other End of Movement Phase actions you are taking) before resolving any of them. Then you Sequence them as you desire. You can't add to the sequence, because that is taking an action after the End of the Phase.
The only exceptions have to be in the rules for the End of Phase (etc.) action. For example the rules for Drop Pods tell you to disembark the units in passengers immediately after deploying the Drop Pod. This is explicit permission (requirement) to add a specific action to the End of Phase sequence.
@ BCB & Alextroy: I don't believe that "end of the movement phase" is a finite, one-time only, specific time in which only 1 action can be done. Otherwise, as others have mentions, you would only be able to bring in 1 unit per turn ever. Because once you resolve placing that 1 unit, the "end of the movement phase" would be over before another unit could be selected to drop in. The "time period" is anywhere between completing the movement of your last unit that was on the board, to the beginning of the Psychic phase.
That also brings me to my next point, it does not say anyway in the BRB that all units must be declared they are coming in during any turn. It is just like moving units in the Movement phase. You may go 1 unit at a time to determine which units move. So, during the end of your move phase, if you drop in a Character with the Beacon, it then becomes an available option to use. And until you move onto your Psychic Phase, it is STILL the end of your move phase.
BaconCatBug wrote: So by that logic I can deep strike all my dudes first and then move my other units.
That... isn’t the same logic, but I suspect you know that.
By your logic above you could never deploy more than one unit from off the board per turn. Which isn’t the case, so you can quite obviously do “at the end of X phase” options sequentially, and nothing says you must declare all ‘deep strikes’ (using for shorthand; don’t flinch at the term) you intend to before resolving any, which is not the case as nothing says you must.
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
In this case, you are trying to do multiple "End of Movement Phase" actions. You can do them all, but have to decide the order of them before you can do them. You can't choose to do things you couldn't do when you started.
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
In this case, you are trying to do multiple "End of Movement Phase" actions. You can do them all, but have to decide the order of them before you can do them. You can't choose to do things you couldn't do when you started.
Right, so since it would be my turn when my Beacon Captian drops in, obviously I would decided he would drop first. Then, since I have NOT moved onto the Psychic phase yet and therefore it is STILL the end of my movement phase, I could decide to use the Beacon.
As I stated before, "end of the move phase" is not define by the BRB, like at all, and therefore MUST be the time between moving your last and final unit and before the start of the next phase (Psychic). If I choose not to start my Psychic phase, it cannot be proven to no longer be the "end of my move phase" and therefore I can continue to preform actions that require that "timing", including using the Beacon, or deciding to bring in other Reserves. I'd be following "Sequencing" RAW just fine
Nothing about what was quoted requires all things be available at the time the "sequencing" rule is called into play. When do Reserves arrive? At the end of the move phase When can I use the Beacon? At the end of the move phase. Since the Beacon bearer drop in "at the end of the move phase" and it would still BE the end of the move phase when the Beacon is used, permission is granted to use it.
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
I disagree. You can continue to add End of Movement Phase effects to the sequence while you are resolving it.
No, you cannot. The end of the movement phase is a specific point in time. If you're not on the battlefield at the end of the phase you can't activate end of the phase abilities, because if you do then you illegally did the previous action before the end of the phase. The only reason we can even resolve multiple end of phase effects at once e.g. multiple simultaneous deep strikes is because the sequencing rule exists.
Sure, that could be a rule. Shame they didn't write it like that. There really is very little information on how to deal with this sort of thing.
What you're claiming is like me claiming "It's not a rule that dice have to be numbered 1 though 6" and having dice with all 6's.
Not really, because there is another clear alternative. I'm not saying it's right either, I'm saying there isn't enough evidence either way. Ok, we have to pick one. But that choice is arbitrary.
Except your alternative is provably incorrect because you cannot possibly have two "End of the Movement Phases", because by definition any previous "Ends" cannot be "Ends".
BaconCatBug wrote: Except your alternative is provably incorrect because you cannot possibly have two "End of the Movement Phases", because by definition any previous "Ends" cannot be "Ends".
I don't know. I think there's room for the counter-argument that the "end" is a period of time that must occur after all moves have taken place but before the Psychic phase, rather than a single instant in time where everything that happens must be taken into account instantly. I'm not saying it's one way or the other, merely that there's room for a debate about it and, as with so many things in 8th Edition, talk it over with your opponent before the game begins.
EDIT: For example, the weekend is made up of multiple points in time, has two days (one for each end), and encompasses a period rather than an instant. I'm just saying, the word "end" doesn't inherently mean a single instant in time.
I disagree, for the reason I stated above about dice. There is a minimum level of English language parsing to play the game, and sadly since we don't all speak Lojban (yet), we have to parse the game in such a way that it doesn't "break".
I mean, unless you want all my models rolling 6's to hit, wound and save from now on...
BaconCatBug wrote: I disagree, for the reason I stated above about dice. There is a minimum level of English language parsing to play the game, and sadly since we don't all speak Lojban (yet), we have to parse the game in such a way that it doesn't "break".
I mean, unless you want all my models rolling 6's to hit, wound and save from now on...
As always, BCB, I think it's a darned good thing you and I don't play games together.
What BCB is suggesting is that once you resolve the move phase (picking units and resolving their move one at a time), the movement phase "ends". At that point, you may resolve actions that "occur at the end of the movement phase", but once you resolved ONE action, you are no longer "at the end of the move phase" and therefore NO other action can be done.
As others stated above, this interpretation would mean ONLY ONE UNIT CAN ARRIVE FROM RESERVE PER TURN and then you're done and have to IMMEDIATLY move onto the Psychic Phase. That is clearly not how it works, since we know multiple units may arrive from Reserves in any given turn, at the end of the move phase.
That leads to the conclusion, that "end of the move phase" is NOT a one-time-only-specific-nanosecond-of-time, but rather a brief period of time in which several things may occur. This period of time is somewhere between the resolution of the last unit you intend to move and prior to the Psychic Phase beginning. So long as you are STILL in this time frame, you should be able to resolve multiple "end of the move phase" actions, in sequence.
Octopoid wrote: EDIT: For example, the weekend is made up of multiple points in time, has two days (one for each end), and encompasses a period rather than an instant. I'm just saying, the word "end" doesn't inherently mean a single instant in time.
Oh well if we're just changing words then clearly I am wrong here. /s
That's like saying every time there is slaughter it's actually funny because it has the word laughter in it. Or every drought is rough. Or that my house is made of ray-finned fish belonging to the order Anguilliformes because it's got steel in it.
Galef wrote: What BCB is suggesting is that once you resolve the move phase (picking units and resolving their move one at a time), the movement phase "ends".
At that point, you may resolve actions that "occur at the end of the movement phase", but once you resolved ONE action, you are no longer "at the end of the move phase" and therefore NO other action can be done.
As others stated above, this interpretation would mean ONLY ONE UNIT CAN ARRIVE FROM RESERVE PER TURN and then you're done and have to IMMEDIATLY move onto the Psychic Phase.
That is clearly not how it works, since we know multiple units may arrive from Reserves in any given turn, at the end of the move phase.
That leads to the conclusion, that "end of the move phase" is NOT a one-time-only-specific-nanosecond-of-time, but rather a brief period of time in which several things may occur.
This period of time is somewhere between the resolution of the last unit you intend to move and prior to the Psychic Phase beginning.
So long as you are STILL in this time frame, you should be able to resolve multiple "end of the move phase" actions, in sequence.
-
Indeed, it’s a straight-up wrong interpretation and it’s a shame we only seem to be discussing that (oh look we’re here again...). Things only make sense if it’s a period of time/mini phase, for actions after all ‘regular Movement Phase’ actions are done.
Galef wrote: What BCB is suggesting is that once you resolve the move phase (picking units and resolving their move one at a time), the movement phase "ends".
At that point, you may resolve actions that "occur at the end of the movement phase", but once you resolved ONE action, you are no longer "at the end of the move phase" and therefore NO other action can be done.
As others stated above, this interpretation would mean ONLY ONE UNIT CAN ARRIVE FROM RESERVE PER TURN and then you're done and have to IMMEDIATLY move onto the Psychic Phase.
That is clearly not how it works, since we know multiple units may arrive from Reserves in any given turn, at the end of the move phase.
That leads to the conclusion, that "end of the move phase" is NOT a one-time-only-specific-nanosecond-of-time, but rather a brief period of time in which several things may occur.
This period of time is somewhere between the resolution of the last unit you intend to move and prior to the Psychic Phase beginning.
So long as you are STILL in this time frame, you should be able to resolve multiple "end of the move phase" actions, in sequence.
-
There is an incorrect supposition in there that is directly resolved by the rules. There really is only one "End of Phase". You can only do one thing at the point, except the Sequencing rules in the Core Rules tells you how to proceed when you want to do multiple things at have to occur a the same time. This allows you to do multiple things at the End of Phase in the order of your choosing.
However, it is impossible for the timing for Beacon Angelis on a character not on the board to conflict with the timing of that character arriving on the battlefield. You can't choose to use the Beacon Angelis when he hasn't been deployed. Therefore, you are trying to perform an End of Phase action after another End of Phase action, not just resolving them in the order of your choosing when either would be legal.
alextroy wrote: However, it is impossible for the timing for Beacon Angelis on a character not on the board to conflict with the timing of that character arriving on the battlefield. You can't choose to use the Beacon Angelis when he hasn't been deployed. Therefore, you are trying to perform an End of Phase action after another End of Phase action, not just resolving them in the order of your choosing when either would be legal.
I may be a little thick, but I don't see a huge difference between "I'm going to bring in more than one Deep Striking unit" and "I'm going to bring in one unit, use a Beacon Angelis, and then bring in another unit, all at the end of my Movement phase."
Simple. If you only did one End of Phase action, it could not be use Beacon Angelis because you are not deployed. Therefore, you can't try to simultaneously deploy that unit and use its Beacon Angelis. If you can't try and use them simultaneously, you can't use Sequencing to allow you to use both.
alextroy wrote: Simple. If you only did one End of Phase action, it could not be use Beacon Angelis because you are not deployed. Therefore, you can't try to simultaneously deploy that unit and use its Beacon Angelis. If you can't try and use them simultaneously, you can't use Sequencing to allow you to use both.
I'm just not seeing why "one end of phase action" is the assumed standard. Like I said above, I think there's room to argue that the end of phase is a period of time wherein multiple actions can be performed, just as easily as it can be argued that it's a single instant in time where only one action can be performed.
BaconCatBug wrote: Except your alternative is provably incorrect because you cannot possibly have two "End of the Movement Phases", because by definition any previous "Ends" cannot be "Ends".
Not at all. You're saying it's a point rather than a sub phase. But the rules never state this either way. It could easily be a period of time within which only "end of" phase abilities can be used. Many games use this model, it's nowhere near as far fetched as you're making out.
There could be a sub phase for End of Phase, but that's not what the W40K rules state. Otherwise there would be no need for the Sequencing rules to state (Emphasis added):
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
alextroy wrote: There could be a sub phase for End of Phase, but that's not what the W40K rules state. Otherwise there would be no need for the Sequencing rules to state (Emphasis added):
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
That is stating that when two rules happen simultaneously, sequencing occurs. It says nothing about the end of the Movement phase being an instant in time.
It clearly states how to resolve actions that have to take place at the same time, such as ‘at the start of the Movement phase’, which makes it how to resolve actions that take place ‘at the end of the Movement phase’.
Doesn't matter if you think it is a single point in time or an undeclared 'sub phase', they are happening at the same time and use is governed by the Sequencing rule.
alextroy wrote: It clearly states how to resolve actions that have to take place at the same time, such as ‘at the start of the Movement phase’, which makes it how to resolve actions that take place ‘at the end of the Movement phase’.
Doesn't matter if you think it is a single point in time or an undeclared 'sub phase', they are happening at the same time and use is governed by the Sequencing rule.
But that doesn't prevent using the Beacon Angelis, provided you sequence your actions correctly. There are no rules that say you must declare all your End of Movement Phase actions at once and all must be legal at the time you declare them before then moving on to carrying out the declared sequence. That's entirely a construct that some people are making up. There's no concept of anything like the Stack from MtG going on here, which has very precise rules governing sequencing.
alextroy wrote: It clearly states how to resolve actions that have to take place at the same time, such as ‘at the start of the Movement phase’, which makes it how to resolve actions that take place ‘at the end of the Movement phase’.
Doesn't matter if you think it is a single point in time or an undeclared 'sub phase', they are happening at the same time and use is governed by the Sequencing rule.
But that doesn't prevent using the Beacon Angelis, provided you sequence your actions correctly. There are no rules that say you must declare all your End of Movement Phase actions at once and all must be legal at the time you declare them before then moving on to carrying out the declared sequence. That's entirely a construct that some people are making up. There's no concept of anything like the Stack from MtG going on here, which has very precise rules governing sequencing.
While not a RAW argument, it's also worth noting that nobody I've ever played with or ever seen play plans out all their end of phase effects in order before beginning to execute them.
From a practical standpoint, that simply doesn't happen.
alextroy wrote: I hate to say it, but people do lots of things in the game for connivence that are not strictly legal. Doesn't change the RAW.
Agreed, that's why I qualified my statement as such.
I still believe it's useful to have an awareness of how people actually play the game when discussing rules though, otherwise we'd never get past telling people their Assault weapons don't work!
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
Wait..doesn't that mean that only one unit could ever deep strike per turn?
I feel like each "sequence phase" occurs as long as you need it to - the shooting phase for instance lasts as long as you want to do "shooting phase" actions. The charge phase lasts as long as you want to do charge phase actions.
"start of the" and "end of the" actions just have to group together, before or after any more actions taken during that phase. They essentially create a sub-phase.
I still do not think Sequencing is applicable here. While both Teleportarium/Jump Assault and the affects of the Beacon do indeed occur "at the end of the move phase", since the Beacon is not actually available at the ....beginning of the end, Sequencing just does not apply. You have to drop the Character in first.
However, at the instance, the Beacon BECOMES available. And since you have not proceeded, nor are required to IMMEDIATELY proceed to the Psychic Phase, you are STILL at the "end of the move phase" This is a permissive ruleset, therefore if I am given permission to use something, I can do it.
There is no evidence yet presented that denies or otherwise contradicts the permission thus given. -Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other) -The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is -Nor is there any RAW stating actions of multiple units' actions must be declared before any of those actions are resolved. Every phase dictates you pick units one at a time to declare AND RESOLVE their actions before selecting another unit to declare and resolve.
Thus the RAW would indicate that you do indeed pick your actions one at a time, meaning that if something becomes available within that phase/time period, it is eligible to select, even if it wasn't are the start of that phase/time period. You choose which units arrive ONE BY ONE at the end of the move phase. How is that any different than choosing to use the Beacon, which itself calls out being able to bring in units from Reserve?
Galef wrote: -Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other)
-The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is
You contradict yourself here.
If the unit arrives at the end of the phase (sequenced with any others also arriving), and the beacon must activate after that, it is now after the end of the phase, and the beacon is no longer eligible to be activated.
Galef wrote: -Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other)
-The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is
You contradict yourself here.
If the unit arrives at the end of the phase (sequenced with any others also arriving), and the beacon must activate after that, it is now after the end of the phase, and the beacon is no longer eligible to be activated.
Sigh...
Only if you count the end of the movement phase as a moment rather than a sub-phase! People really need to stop making that assumption.
Galef wrote: -Sequencing does not apply because both rules are not in play at the same time (one MUST occur before the other) -The Beacon can be used at the end of the move phase, which it still is
You contradict yourself here. If the unit arrives at the end of the phase (sequenced with any others also arriving), and the beacon must activate after that, it is now after the end of the phase, and the beacon is no longer eligible to be activated.
Sigh...
Only if you count the end of the movement phase as a moment rather than a sub-phase! People really need to stop making that assumption.
Exactly. If "end of the movement phase" is one specific instant in time that can never be "returned to", then someone please explain how anyone is able to bring in more than 1 unit from reserves per turn...
...I'll wait...
...no, actually, I won't wait. Because I've already explained how the best interpretation of "end of the move phase" is the period of time BETWEEN moving your last unit and before starting the Psychic phase. So long as you are between these to "points" in time, you are STILL at the end of the move phase. Any other interpretation would IMMEDIATLY result in proceeding to the next phase after doing a SINGLE "end of the move phase" action. What would be the point of the Beta Tactic Reserve rule if you could only bring in 1 unit per turn? What's that? You put 4 units in Reserve? Well some of those unit will instantly die because they cannot arrive by turn 3
Snark aside, this is the logical interpretation when you think it through
Once again, I feel compelled to note that the rules do not give us clear indication either way. MAYBE it is in instant in time, and MAYBE it is a period of time, and DEFINITELY you should talk it over with your opponent before playing.
Octopoid wrote: Once again, I feel compelled to note that the rules do not give us clear indication either way. MAYBE it is in instant in time, and MAYBE it is a period of time, and DEFINITELY you should talk it over with your opponent before playing.
And I agree it could go either way. But the implications of one particular interpretation being presented would very much lead to situations in which whole armies (like Daemons & GSC) would actually instantly lose, or at least lose a large chunk of their army due to the inability to bring them in from reserves.
If the "end" in a finite point, you get 1 ability at the point and NO MOAR. Period. because the point will have past once you resolve that 1 action. That cannot be how it works at all. Therefore the more correct interpretation MUST be that the "end" is a period between 2 points, thereby allowing for multiple "end of the phase" actions to happen. Since these actions would be resolved one at a time, that clearly allows for other actions to become available as a result or a prior action resolved, while still being between the 2 points in time.
If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
alextroy wrote: If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
Nothing about this rule says the active player can't add events to the sequence after they start resolving it. They're still choosing the order.
alextroy wrote: If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
Sarcasm and derision are not necessary or appreciated. We differ in our interpretations of the rules. Both are valid, whether you like to admit that or not. There's some solid arguments on both sides. The sequencing rule alone does not solve this issue - if it did, we wouldn't still be talking about it.
alextroy wrote: If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
Nothing about this rule says the active can't add events to the sequence after they start resolving it. They're still choosing the order.
But if you're bringing a unit on the board then having it involved with the Beacon Angelis after, it's not doing those actions at the same time, it's trying to have it do something after the end of the movement phase.
alextroy wrote: If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
And since the Beacon ISN"T on the table until AFTER the Character with it arrives, Sequencing is NOT at play here as I have stated. Sequencing only applies when both rules occur at the same time. Since the Beacon cannot be used unit the Character arrives, that must happen first. The "choice" the owning player has is chosen for them. However, as I have posted before, the Beacon may still be used at that point because you are STILL at the end of the move phase.
There are no RAW that state when you MUST proceed to the next phase. As long as I still have actions to perform "at the end of the move phase" I can resolve them as I see fit until I am done. The Move phase will look like this: 1) I move each unit, 1 by 1 until have no more units to move 2) As it is then the end of the phase, I bring in Reserve units 1 by 1, starting with my captain that has the Beacon 3) It is STILL the end of the phase. I can use the Beacon to pull a unit to the Capt 4) Since I have yet more units in Reserve, I continue to bring them in, 1 by 1
Sequencing is irrelevant here because: A) The Beacon isn't on the table until after the Capt drops in or B) All the actions occurring "at the end of the phase" are happening in my turn and therefore I decide how they are resolved per Sequencing
Stux wrote: Sequencing isn't at the same time. The whole is to turn would be simultaneous things into a sequence you resolve one by one.
Also it's still the end of the movement phase if the end is a period of time, which is a perfectly valid interpretation.
Except it's not valid because it allows me to move my other units after Deep Striking in others.
No it doesn't, because that isn't an End of Movement phase action.
Stux is correct. RAW, you pick and resolve your unit's movement "at the start of the Movement phase. If you have begun preforming "end of the phase" actions, you are no longer at the "start of the phase"
And actually, this wording lends further evidence that "starts" and "ends" are 100% NOT a finite points. Otherwise, a players would only ever get to move ONE unit per turn. Because once you resolve that unit and move to the next, it isn't the "start" anymore. Since that is ridiculous, it should be clear that those "points" are extended periods that begin and end according to the player running out of actions to perform
Galef wrote: Stux is correct. RAW, you pick and resolve your unit's movement "at the start of the Movement phase. If you have begun preforming "end of the phase" actions, you are no longer at the "start of the phase"
Why do you quote things that don't exist?
Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition Rulebook, Page 177 wrote:Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.
Not a single instance of "at the start of the Movement phase."
Since you're not actually arguing in good faith (as shown by your fraudulent quotes), I contend that your arguments are thus invalidated.
BCB is right in one respect, movement of units is during the movement phase. End of the movement phase is still part of the movement phase and so you can continue to move units after deep striking in others.
Beacon Angelis requires an action ie deployment on the board before it can be used ergo one of those "End of movement phase" actions wasn't used at the end of that units movement phase.
The rules for reinforcement also stating "their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" is also indicative that they can take no further elective actions in the movement phase which would include the Beacon Angelis.
alextroy wrote: If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
Sarcasm and derision are not necessary or appreciated. We differ in our interpretations of the rules. Both are valid, whether you like to admit that or not. There's some solid arguments on both sides. The sequencing rule alone does not solve this issue - if it did, we wouldn't still be talking about it.
Thanks.
Please forgive my descent into sarcasm, Octopoid. I just couldn't help myself when confronted with arguments like:
Galef wrote:...If "end of the movement phase" is one specific instant in time that can never be "returned to", then someone please explain how anyone is able to bring in more than 1 unit from reserves per turn...
...I'll wait...
...no, actually, I won't wait. ...
And
Galef wrote:[...If the "end" in a finite point, you get 1 ability at the point and NO MOAR. Period. because the point will have past once you resolve that 1 action.
That cannot be how it works at all. Therefore the more correct interpretation MUST be that the "end" is a period between 2 points, thereby allowing for multiple "end of the phase" actions to happen.
Since these actions would be resolved one at a time, that clearly allows for other actions to become available as a result or a prior action resolved, while still being between the 2 points in time.
That are literally answered merely by pointing to the Sequencing Rule whether it is a not-defined-in-the-rules sub-phase or a implied moment in time.
Galef wrote:
Spoiler:
alextroy wrote: If only there was a rule to resolve this. Wait! There is
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.
And since the Beacon ISN"T on the table until AFTER the Character with it arrives, Sequencing is NOT at play here as I have stated.
Sequencing only applies when both rules occur at the same time. Since the Beacon cannot be used unit the Character arrives, that must happen first. The "choice" the owning player has is chosen for them.
However, as I have posted before, the Beacon may still be used at that point because you are STILL at the end of the move phase.
There are no RAW that state when you MUST proceed to the next phase. As long as I still have actions to perform "at the end of the move phase" I can resolve them as I see fit until I am done.
The Move phase will look like this:
1) I move each unit, 1 by 1 until have no more units to move
2) As it is then the end of the phase, I bring in Reserve units 1 by 1, starting with my captain that has the Beacon
3) It is STILL the end of the phase. I can use the Beacon to pull a unit to the Capt
4) Since I have yet more units in Reserve, I continue to bring them in, 1 by 1
Sequencing is irrelevant here because:
A) The Beacon isn't on the table until after the Capt drops in or
B) All the actions occurring "at the end of the phase" are happening in my turn and therefore I decide how they are resolved per Sequencing
An this is where we just disagree. There is a Sequencing issue. GW explicitly calls out things that happen at a specific unambiguous time (Start/End of a Phase/Turn/Battle Round) as a time when the Sequencing rules comes into effect. You can't just wish that away. It's right there in the rules I quoted. They have to be things that try to happen at the same time. Anything else is taking another action after the "End of the Movement Phase" because you couldn't use Sequencing to allow to choose it in the first place.
End of movement starts; the following "end of movement" effects are checked:
CHECK - Unit 1's Deepstrike
CHECK - Unit 2's Deepstrike
NOT CHECKED - Beacon ; as the unit is not on the table
Now that everything's triggered, you then move on to sequencing rules; which allow you to order the effects that have triggered, in the order of your choice - because multiple things ARE happening at the same time.
The problem is that when all the abilities activate, Beacon isn't ABLE to activate; since the model holding it is not yet on the table - so it CAN'T have activated, and put itself in sequencing. Any other result is activating AFTER "End of Movement" phase step has started; which means it doesn't follow under sequencing rules (and also doesn't apply, since the moment of activation already passed before the model was able to be placed on the table).
There is only one "end of turn" trigger step; the rest is just sequencing the effects that happen once that step gets triggered.
BaconCatBug wrote: Just like how it's "opinion" that dice are numbered 1 through 6, but that's how it has to be for the game to function.
That's a false equivalence and I have no idea why you keep brining it up. Nothing about the natural language used in "end of movement phase" implies you can't use an ability like the Beacon provided you order your sequence in the correct way.
BaconCatBug wrote: Just like how it's "opinion" that dice are numbered 1 through 6, but that's how it has to be for the game to function.
That's a false equivalence and I have no idea why you keep brining it up. Nothing about the natural language used in "end of movement phase" implies you can't use an ability like the Beacon provided you order your sequence in the correct way.
Agreed, BCB's statement doesn't apply here at all. I'm not saying dice could be numbered 2 to 7.
The two interpretations are equally valid and I haven't seen a shred of evidence to the contrary of that. The end of a phase being a period of time in itself is COMMON in games. Dice numbered 2 to 7 are not.
alextroy wrote: I think we have reached the point where no-one is going to convince anyone of anything. You either believe A or B about the "Beginning/End of x".
Or "we don't have enough evidence for either" which is my position.
Normally, I can see other interpretations as valid and will say so. But in this instance, the opposing interpretation leads to "incorrect" situations that have not been address.
For example, if "end of the move phase" is a one time instance, than only 1 action can be preformed and once resolved it is no longer the "end of the move phase".
That cannot be correct as it means no player could ever bring in more than 1 unit from Reserves.
That is what I am trying to refute. Excuse my "incorrect, bad-faith" quoting. I'll just stop quoting since I don't have the Primer up at all times. My question is still valid:
____________________________________________
How do you bring in more that 1 unit if "end of the move phase" is a single, non-repeatable instance in time?
____________________________________________
Regardless of what rule/logic is used to arrive at the answer to that question, the answer will always be that you CAN being in more than 1 unit at the "end" of the phase.
That HAS to mean the time frame is not 1 single instance. And if it isn't 1 single instance, but rather an extended period defined however you wish, than a valid argument stands to reason that the Beacon can thus be used once the Character drops in, so long as you are STILL considered in that time frame.
That is the premises I am suggesting. Nothing RAW presented thus far either contradicts this premise or refutes the ability to use the Beacon under this premise.
I don't really understand this objection to be honest... You can declare all the actions simultaneously at the point of the end of the phase (if that is the interpretation we are using), then resolve them with sequencing.
That's how you would bring in multiple units.
I don't necessarily think this is the correct implementation, but I don't see this as an argument against it either.
Stux wrote: I don't really understand this objection to be honest... You can declare all the actions simultaneously at the point of the end of the phase (if that is the interpretation we are using), then resolve them with sequencing.
That's how you would bring in multiple units.
I don't necessarily think this is the correct implementation, but I don't see this as an argument against it either.
I would not have anything against this interpretation either, except it is being presented as a way to "deny" the use of the Beacon because it isn't on the table at the moment you would declare its use.
But, of course, you could counter argue that neither is the Character that is arriving, so how are you able to check its datasheet to see how it is allowed to arrive in the first place?
With that counter-argument, you could declare all units arriving and the use of the Beacon at the same time, but resolve the Character arriving first.
alextroy wrote: I think we have reached the point where no-one is going to convince anyone of anything. You either believe A or B about the "Beginning/End of x".
Or "we don't have enough evidence for either" which is my position.
I would think the fact of having the unit teleport in at the end of the phase than activate the Beacon Angelis after that, which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough. It's not a sequencing issue. GW's covered this with things such as not allowing stratagems to be used at the end of the movement phase on a unit arriving as reinforcements because the stratagem would have to be played after the end of the movement phase, this situation isn't different from that.
doctortom wrote: which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough.
Ok, we'll do this again then...
What makes you think this is happening AFTER the end of the movement phase, as opposed to DURING the end of the movement phase? A rule citation would be good, if you're so certain.
Quoting myself here, so we don't retread this argument again too:
Stux wrote: And before someone comes back with "the English definition of 'the end' is a moment in time:
1.
Not necessarily, it depends on context.
2.
Often not in general gaming vernacular, with many games treating the end of something as a period of time.
doctortom wrote: which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough.
Ok, we'll do this again then...
What makes you think this is happening AFTER the end of the movement phase, as opposed to DURING the end of the movement phase? A rule citation would be good, if you're so certain.
Right, if you haven't yet proceeded to the next phase (Psychic), then there is nothing RAW saying you are not STILL at the end of the move phase.
The only definitive "end" to the move phase in the BRB is the beginning of the Psychic Phase.
Or, using a quote for the Battle Primer
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the
models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish.
So by that, the end is once you've moved as many units as you wish, but before you move onto the next phase
The lack of moving onto the Psychic Phase is evidence enough that you are still at the end of the move phase.
Any rule/ability that can be used "at the end of the move phase" should be fair game.
Outside of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, there is only one “End”. Once you’ve reached it, you are done (Sequencing aside). If there was and End of Phase sub-Phase, I would be all in on this, but there isn’t such an animal in the Core Rules.
alextroy wrote: Outside of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, there is only one “End”. Once you’ve reached it, you are done (Sequencing aside). If there was and End of Phase sub-Phase, I would be all in on this, but there isn’t such an animal in the Core Rules.
Yeah, but there's nothing support any other way of interpreting it either. So we don't know which is correct without new information.
alextroy wrote: Outside of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, there is only one “End”. Once you’ve reached it, you are done (Sequencing aside). If there was and End of Phase sub-Phase, I would be all in on this, but there isn’t such an animal in the Core Rules.
Yeah, but there's nothing support any other way of interpreting it either. So we don't know which is correct without new information.
While I have thus far been firmly in the "there is evidence for this" I am starting to be more in the "nothing to support either way" camp.
And due to there being no evidence, you would have to either: A) allow the Beacon to be used because you are still at the "end", or B) strictly enforce a "1 action only ever" after completing all your moves. This would mean only ever allowing 1 unit to arrive from reserve
It has to be one or the other. And since I don't see many players using B's interpretation, I'll have to continue using A's
doctortom wrote: which would mean you're trying to activate it after the end of the movement phase is evidence enough.
Ok, we'll do this again then...
What makes you think this is happening AFTER the end of the movement phase, as opposed to DURING the end of the movement phase? A rule citation would be good, if you're so certain.
Quoting myself here, so we don't retread this argument again too:
Stux wrote: And before someone comes back with "the English definition of 'the end' is a moment in time:
1.
Not necessarily, it depends on context.
2.
Often not in general gaming vernacular, with many games treating the end of something as a period of time.
It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..
Why do you think this should be able to be handled any differently than how they handle (not) playing stratagems on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements at the end of the movement phase? The arguments that had previously been made for doing it through sequencing is the same argument being advanced here for doing it, and GW shot it down for stratagems.
It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..
Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.
All you are really saying here is:
'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'
Galef wrote: B) strictly enforce a "1 action only ever" after completing all your moves. This would mean only ever allowing 1 unit to arrive from reserve
I disagree, if the End of movement phase is a definite event then the '1 action only' applies equally to all units. By specifying what units are arriving then you have declared their singular action. Multiple rules interactions, use sequencing to resolve them in the manner you want, ie which unit arrives where and in what order. By including the Beacon Angelis into the mix you are attempting to use 2 end of phase actions when there can be only one action per unit. Otherwise it wouldn't be an end action.
It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..
Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.
All you are really saying here is:
'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'
Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.
To quote you back, sure, you would be right. IF it was a period of time.
It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..
Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.
All you are really saying here is:
'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'
Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.
What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.
And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.
DoctorTom, is this the FAQ you are using a precedence?
Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that are used ‘during your Movement phase’? A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.
I really do not think that can be used as precedence considering the question is specifically referring to "during the phase" Strats. The Beacon is an "end of the phase" relic
So that FAQ seems to be addressing the timing and confirming those Strats cannot be done because they happen "during". But the Beacon is quite clearly the "end" The Beacon ALSO allows the bearer to call units to them that are still in Reserves, potentially lending precedence to multiple, in sequence, actions to be performed at the "end"
Hypothetical scenario: You have 2 units in reserve. You drop the first unit in. It's a unit I do not like, so I immediately use Forewarned to have my Reapers shoot at it. So....something happened that "interrupted" the end of your movement phase. Do you get to use the reroll Strat for a saving throw? Do you still get to drop in the 2nd unit?
How does this affect the interpretation that the "end" happens once and cannot have anything happen "after"? Or do we believe Forewarned just is illegal to be used ever?
It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..
Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.
All you are really saying here is:
'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'
Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.
What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.
And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.
I've not addressed it because it's irrelevant, but if you really want me to:
The Stratagems they refer to are ones that say to use them during the movement phase, not at the end of the movement phase. So it's totally different to choosing to do more 'end of the movement phase' abilities.
I don't see how this has any bearing on setting a precedent, the FAQ is talking about a very different situation and isn't at all related to treating the end as a moment or a period.
It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..
Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.
All you are really saying here is:
'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'
Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.
What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.
And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.
I've not addressed it because it's irrelevant, but if you really want me to:
The Stratagems they refer to are ones that say to use them during the movement phase, not at the end of the movement phase. So it's totally different to choosing to do more 'end of the movement phase' abilities.
I don't see how this has any bearing on setting a precedent, the FAQ is talking about a very different situation and isn't at all related to treating the end as a moment or a period.
The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.
doctortom wrote: The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.
Ok, so if I accept the premises that a "during/end of" Strat is a no-go, I still don't see how that affects or would be precedence of a non-Strat. Strats are Strats, Relic are not. That's the difference and specifically, the Beacon is not actually affecting the unit that arrived from Reinforcements.
Furthermore, The Beacon specifically allows it to affect a unit in Reserves. This wording seems pointless since units in reserve would already have an ability to drop in around the Character under the same restrictions (within 6" of the Character, outside 9" of enemies)
Side note: Ironically, I am planning on using the Beacon on a Jump Captain, but specifically starting the Capt on the board, not in Reserves. I am doing this to Move+Advance and be able to use the Beacon Turn 1 to pull a unit with Frag cannons well forward into 12" shooting range of an enemy. So while I am indeed intending on using the Beacon, it will be on the board before the end of the move phase. So a TO ruling against my position wouldn't actually affect me.
It's happening after then end of the movement phase because the unit comes on board at the end of movement phase. Then, you're trying to have the unit involved in something after it arrives at the end of the movement phase..
Ok... And yet again this isn't a problem at all if the end of the phase is a period of time. So not a reason it can't be.
All you are really saying here is:
'if the end is a moment only, nothing can happen after that moment before it ends'
Sure, you would be right. IF it was a moment.
What I'm saying is that how they handle stratagems in relation to reinforcements is a precedent for how to handle this situation. You don't seem to want to include precedents when saying there isn't evidence for either way. A Precedent seems to be reasonable evidence for one way to be chosen over the other.
And you didn't directly address why this should be handled any differently than how stratagems are handled in this type of situation, which GW has ruled on.
I've not addressed it because it's irrelevant, but if you really want me to:
The Stratagems they refer to are ones that say to use them during the movement phase, not at the end of the movement phase. So it's totally different to choosing to do more 'end of the movement phase' abilities.
I don't see how this has any bearing on setting a precedent, the FAQ is talking about a very different situation and isn't at all related to treating the end as a moment or a period.
The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.
It's a completely different situation in that it doesn't address whether the end of the phase is a moment or a period of time, all it does is say that abilities which have a time of "during the movement phase" cannot be used "at the end of the movement phase".
That is totally irrelevant to the discussion of whether the end of the movement phase is a moment or a time period.
I really don't understand what the difficulty is here.
doctortom wrote: The end of a phase is still during a phase, it's just at the end of it. You haven't shown how it's totally different.
Ok, so if I accept the premises that a "during/end of" Strat is a no-go, I still don't see how that affects or would be precedence of a non-Strat. Strats are Strats, Relic are not. That's the difference and specifically, the Beacon is not actually affecting the unit that arrived from Reinforcements.
Why wouldn't it be a precedent? You don't get to do something involving something a unit coming in as reinforcements in the movement phase after it arrives. It shouldn't work any differently for a relic than the stratagem. If a stratagem dependent upon being put on a unit arriving from reinforcements can't be done after it arrives, presumably because that puts that action after the end of the movement phase, than any action dependent upon a unit arriving from reinforcements first can't be done after it arrive, for the same reason - presumably because that action would be after the end of the movement phase.'
Galef wrote: Furthermore, The Beacon specifically allows it to affect a unit in Reserves. This wording seems pointless since units in reserve would already have an ability to drop in around the Character under the same restrictions (within 6" of the Character, outside 9" of enemies)
Does is say it can affect a unit in Reserves while the Beacon is in Reserves itself?
BaconCatBug wrote: The end of the movement phase is still in the movement phase.
100% wrong.
Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the
end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that
are used ‘during your Movement phase’?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.
If the end of a phase would still be that phase you could play a stratagem that is played during that phase. But you can't.
The End of the Movement Phase is still part of the Movement Phase. You just can't do anything that is used During the Movement Phase after it because the Movement Phase is then done.
Galef wrote: Furthermore, The Beacon specifically allows it to affect a unit in Reserves. This wording seems pointless since units in reserve would already have an ability to drop in around the Character under the same restrictions (within 6" of the Character, outside 9" of enemies)
Does is say it can affect a unit in Reserves while the Beacon is in Reserves itself?
That's the crux of this disagreement though, isn't it. I'm saying the Beacon isn't in Reserve once the Character arrives, and thus available to used since you would STILL be at the end of the phase, which is when the Beacon can be used. Until you actually proceed to the Psychic phase, there isn't anything else defining when the "end of the move phase"...ends. And nothing RAW states that all actions must be declared before resolving them. I can bring units from reserve, one by one, judging which units I wish to bring in by what happens as they come in. For example, if playing against an Eldar player with Reapers near a Farseer, you can bring in the units to try to "bluff" out Forewarned. You would have to give the opponent that chance to declare its use before moving on to bringing in the next unit.
Things MUST be allowed to be "triggerable" due the changing circumstances. Otherwise, abilities/Stratagems like Forewarned would never be legal.
Sequencing doesn't apply to Reserves because they don't happen at the same time. The player needs to make a conscious decision to choose which units to deploy, one after another, specifically.
There isn't a requirement to deepstrike at the end of your phase, it's not automatic, so you would naturally be required to select the unit. If you're playing as though the phase ends after completing a single action you could never deepstrike more than one unit, because they'd need to be selected and that wouldn't be possible.
alextroy wrote: No. Because you would need to be able use them all at the same time and then choose the order before using any. However, if the character is not on the board at the end of the turn, you can't activate the The Beacon Angelis before you choose the come in via Drop Pod or Teleportarium. Once you've come on, the phase is over and you can't choose at add a new "End of Phase" action to the sequence.
I disagree. You can continue to add End of Movement Phase effects to the sequence while you are resolving it.
No, you cannot. The end of the movement phase is a specific point in time. If you're not on the battlefield at the end of the phase you can't activate end of the phase abilities, because if you do then you illegally did the previous action before the end of the phase. The only reason we can even resolve multiple end of phase effects at once e.g. multiple simultaneous deep strikes is because the sequencing rule exists.
So just gonna say I have no idea whether you can or can't since its honestly not clear, if I had to GUESS I would say no. However Bacon your reasoning here is really flimsy, it does not say anywhere in BRB or any other rule that you declare you deepstrikers then deploy them. Yet for shooting it says you declare what each weapon is firing at then make your rolls. RAW this leaves the door open for using angelis, RAI i don't think you are supposed to be able to. IIRC in 7th people were doing this with drop podding in char with angelis and teleporting land raiders and crap (when angelis worked on any UNIT) GW FAQd to say the model has to be on the table at the start of the movement phase. However the FAQ was to the relic not any part of the game rules. In fact on reading the BRB the only reason a unit can't move after DS is it uses all movement FOR deepstriking. I also think saying you can't add steps during the end of movement phase is flawed logic, best example of this is Auspex Scans and similar type stratagems. Its not possible to declare auspex at the time that movement phase ends, in fact I don't even know if I would because it would depend where you landed, yet I can still add a shooting phase to the end of movement phase order. To be clear, I agree angelis probably isn't legally used at least no intentionally, but I think you have to acknowledge that RAW its quite vague and does leave room to argue that it can be used.
My advice talk to your opponent about it before each match and get their opinion on it before you even pick it so that it doesn't cause any arguments
GrinNfool wrote: However Bacon your reasoning here is really flimsy, it does not say anywhere in BRB or any other rule that you declare you deepstrikers then deploy them.
It also doesn't say dice are numbered one to six, or that I can't give my kitty a belly rub to auto-pass a morale test. "The rules don't say I can't" isn't an argument.
Every single "deep strike" style rule that happens at the end of the movement phase all happen simultaneously.
GrinNfool wrote: However Bacon your reasoning here is really flimsy, it does not say anywhere in BRB or any other rule that you declare you deepstrikers then deploy them.
It also doesn't say dice are numbered one to six, or that I can't give my kitty a belly rub to auto-pass a morale test. "The rules don't say I can't" isn't an argument.
Every single "deep strike" style rule that happens at the end of the movement phase all happen simultaneously.
ACTUALLY they say roll a d6 or d3 or some other specific die, it doesn't say roll a die with 6 6s lol which would I guess be a D1 and I don't think there are any cat based game mechanics anywhere though that would admittedly be hilarious. All I was saying is you MUST have something to base your argument on, you are applying shooting rules to reinforcements but they are worded differently, no 1 has to tell you all their reinforcements coming in this round before placing them. They place them 1 at a time and will tell you when they are done and no 1 would pay you ANY attention if you said no you can't do that you didn't declare because the BRB DOES NO T CARE HOW YOU DO IT as long as they arrive before the next phase and following any other rule the DS in question has to follow. I don't disagree like I said lol but its incorrect to just flippantly say everyone else is wrong and I am right when your argument boils down to I don't think you can and your opponents is I think you can. The only thing I could base it on was their previous FAQ of the same relic in 7th in which they said that the model has to be on the table at the START of the movement phase. W/o a better written rule its vague and in dire need of an FAQ like they gave it before, but I think the FAQ in 7th shows the RAI for the relic.
I do think it's slightly broken under the current interpretation.
End of Movement phase Turn 2:
Drop in three Watch Captains
All three pop beacons
Suddenly the opponent has 3 Watch Captains, and 3 full squads of Vets with Heavy Thunder hammers in his backfield.
That can't be right....
Then again, isn't that kinda the same way Drop pods worked? I honestly have never read the rules on Drop pods, but that was how I saw them deployed.
End of movement phase, suddenly squads of guys deploying from the droppod in the backfield...
I have to be dead wrong somewhere, this doesn't seem fair.
BaconCatBug wrote: Please show me where it defines the sides the dice must have? In English a D6 doesn't necessarily need to be numbered 1 though 6.
This kind of non-cooperative argument is not going to bring us to any sort of agreeable resolution.
I get that you are trying to refute "but the BRB doesn't say I can't" arguments, but that isn't what is being presented. What is being presented is a situation in which ability says you may do a thing during X, and BRB does not give a definitive definition of when X officially begins/ends.
In lieu of that definition, we can at least narrow it down: after A, but before B
In my interpretation, the end of the move phase is after you have completed moving all the units "you wish to move" and before the Psychic phase. I feel the BRB supports this. Since the Beacon is one the board at the moment the Character arrives, and we are still in the "end of the phase" it can be used, just like Forewarned could be used at this time, or another unit could drop in after the Character arrives
Drop in three Watch Captains All three pop beacons Suddenly the opponent has 3 Watch Captains, and 3 full squads of Vets with Heavy Thunder hammers in his backfield.
That can't be right....
Then again, isn't that kinda the same way Drop pods worked? I honestly have never read the rules on Drop pods, but that was how I saw them deployed.
End of movement phase, suddenly squads of guys deploying from the droppod in the backfield...
I have to be dead wrong somewhere, this doesn't seem fair.
You're right, that wouldn't seem fair if you could do that. Good thing you cannot, because the Beacon is a Relic, so you may only ever have 1. It also adheres to the same restrictions as units arriving from reinforcements (i.e. they must be outside 9" of enemies), so it isn't really any different than using the Teleportorium Stratagem
BaconCatBug wrote: Please show me where it defines the sides the dice must have? In English a D6 doesn't necessarily need to be numbered 1 though 6.
This is a bad faith argument that is frankly beneath you. It's a total false equivalence, which I've pointed out to you multiple times in this thread and yet you continue to spout it.
6 sided dice are, the vast majority of the time, numbered 1 to 6. It is an accepted default.
The end of something is sometimes a single point and is sometimes a continuous amount. There is no accepted default. This also holds true specifically within the context of games, where games often have a period of time to resolve 'end of phase' effects.
Continuing to repeat this flawed argument is just weakening your position.
Stux wrote: This is a bad faith argument that is frankly beneath you. It's a total false equivalence, which I've pointed out to you multiple times in this thread and yet you continue to spout it.
6 sided dice are, the vast majority of the time, numbered 1 to 6. It is an accepted default.
The end of something is sometimes a single point and is sometimes a continuous amount. There is no accepted default. This also holds true specifically within the context of games, where games often have a period of time to resolve 'end of phase' effects.
Continuing to repeat this flawed argument is just weakening your position.
And by that logic, "the end is, the vast majority of the time, a single point in time. It is an accepted default."
Stux wrote: This is a bad faith argument that is frankly beneath you. It's a total false equivalence, which I've pointed out to you multiple times in this thread and yet you continue to spout it.
6 sided dice are, the vast majority of the time, numbered 1 to 6. It is an accepted default.
The end of something is sometimes a single point and is sometimes a continuous amount. There is no accepted default. This also holds true specifically within the context of games, where games often have a period of time to resolve 'end of phase' effects.
Continuing to repeat this flawed argument is just weakening your position.
And by that logic, "the end is, the vast majority of the time, a single point in time. It is an accepted default."
No, it is not. Demonstrably. The end of my chocolate bar is a chunk of chocolate bar.
