We're getting two new psychic disciplines soon. I think this has a real chance to shake things up - especially for marines (as long as they don't apply to IG units).

Since GW is fond of pulling up old(ish) stuff I pulled the old spells cards out.

Malefic had spells to summon elites, minor characters, troops, or a greater daemon (and gibs your caster). I'm not sure if these can come back with the need to pay for points and it competes with ritual.

The other spells were a +1 Invuln in a bubble for Daemons and a couple damage based spells. The hints have pointed toward debuff style spells so we may see entirely new things here. Obscuration will likely have an invisibility style spell.

So, go wild with speculation. Hopefully we'll see some really cool spells soon.

Obscuration I can 100% see a power to grant a chapter unit -1 to be hit. Perhaps another that makes an infantry unit unable to be targeted unless they are the closest (Very powerful).

Because we really need more stackable -1 to hit modifiers.

Sigh.

I would be very surprised if Malefic didn't have a Summoning power. It would not actually compete with Ritual, since you would be able to move first (Move happens before Psychic).
That makes a big difference.

-

zerosignal wrote:
Because we really need more stackable -1 to hit modifiers.

Sigh.

Hey, it's A-OK if it's space marines getting something that's cancer. It's only OP stupid garbage that needs nerfed if Eldar or Tau have it.

if obscuration has a -1 to hit spell I'll bet that it's explicitly worded so as to not stack.

I'm popping some popcorn right now.

Quasistellar wrote:
if obscuration has a -1 to hit spell I'll bet that it's explicitly worded so as to not stack.

I'm popping some popcorn right now.

As much as that would suck for marine players to get a modifier that doesn't stack while others get to stack up everything it would be a move in the right direction.

 Galef wrote:
I would be very surprised if Malefic didn't have a Summoning power. It would not actually compete with Ritual, since you would be able to move first (Move happens before Psychic).
That makes a big difference.

-

That's a pretty good point. Also a more guaranteed result on the number of models summoned. Hmmm...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
We're getting two new psychic disciplines soon. I think this has a real chance to shake things up - especially for marines (as long as they don't apply to IG units).


The other spells were a +1 Invuln in a bubble for Daemons and a couple damage based spells. The hints have pointed toward debuff style spells so we may see entirely new things here. Obscuration will likely have an invisibility style spell.

I'd be so down with just that, for me it would probably make daemonkin army possible and maybe even good. Lots of possessed, greater possessed, forgefiend, etc. With Herald from a choosen god and some daemon troop, would be a really cool army concept!

It would be interesting if Malefic powers included something akin to the Thousand Sons power where they can yank units out of existence and re-deploy them, only with daemons. Basically if the Master of Possessions could re-deploy a daemon unit on the board, etc. Have a character on the backfield performing rituals, while the Master re-distributes them in the psychic phase, etc.

A cool way to do Malefic powers, which would match with the concepts of Shadespire, would be to allow Malefic powers to summon daemons for free by sacrificing existing units.

Imagine you could "heal" a <Legion> <Daemon> <Infantry> unit by sacrificing it to the dark gods, and then getting a full-strength Daemon unit summoned in its place for the same power level. <Character> units could then bring in <Character> Daemons, and <Vehicle> units could bring in <Monster> Daemons.

Here we go!

Ok but that's Imperial, who cares

GOGO gimme Malefic!

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Ok but that's Imperial, who cares

GOGO gimme Malefic!

True, but grabbing a CP from a spell is baller. Not a single spell I wouldn't try to find a use for if I could. It gives me hope for Malefic.

I also half expected only 3 spells, but 6 is just fantastic.

the_scotsman wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Because we really need more stackable -1 to hit modifiers.

Sigh.

Hey, it's A-OK if it's space marines getting something that's cancer. It's only OP stupid garbage that needs nerfed if Eldar or Tau have it.

Please keep playing martyr. We will all remember your sacrifice.

Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

Warptime Light, or Psychic Move Move Move, is very potent, and is the main reason I think you'd want this psyker. The value of being able to move again, even if you aren't able to deal damage from that new position, cannot be understated. Using Move Move Move as an order with no roll required is BONKERS. Absolutely BONKERS. This still requires a roll, but hey, you still get Move Move Move out of it. Move, Advance, then move and Advance 3d6 pick highest. Minimum is 14" movement, most likely is 20" movement. You can steal some stupid objectives like that.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

Inceptors were the same way initially. It's just because they're in the pseudo codex. Once Primaris get their own reboot codex from the next wave you'll see unit sizes bumped.

Glad it's just the Phobos units currently. Infiltrator Squads are nasty, amazing board control.

 Yarium wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

Warptime Light, or Psychic Move Move Move, is very potent, and is the main reason I think you'd want this psyker. The value of being able to move again, even if you aren't able to deal damage from that new position, cannot be understated. Using Move Move Move as an order with no roll required is BONKERS. Absolutely BONKERS. This still requires a roll, but hey, you still get Move Move Move out of it. Move, Advance, then move and Advance 3d6 pick highest. Minimum is 14" movement, most likely is 20" movement. You can steal some stupid objectives like that.

Ehhhh...Movemovemove is 'casted' with no risk by a 30 point HQ to shoot a 40 point infantry unit across the board.

Temporal Passageway or whatever is casted with a 30% chance of failure by a 90 point HQ to shoot a 100 point infantry unit across the board.

I think it's SOLIDLY less powerful. Conceivably useful? Yes. But I wouldn't consider it anywhere above an average power.

Yeah, having units move pretty far, especially in a game of objectives and the ability to shut down deep strike, is really useless

the_scotsman wrote:

Ehhhh...Movemovemove is 'casted' with no risk by a 30 point HQ to shoot a 40 point infantry unit across the board.

M^3 also prevents that 40 point infantry unit from receiving any other 'casts' unless the 30pt HQ has a specific Relic--and it puts them out of range in all likelihood unless you paid points for a Vox.

Temporal Passageway or whatever is casted with a 30% chance of failure by a 90 point HQ to shoot a 100 point infantry unit across the board.

I think it's SOLIDLY less powerful. Conceivably useful? Yes. But I wouldn't consider it anywhere above an average power.

For now? Yeah. But given that people continually talk about how "powerful" it is for you to be able to "shoot across the board" with a unit...you get a spell that lets you do it and it's just "average".

Personally, I like these powers. I also like/dislike them being tied to Phobos stuff. Would have liked to see Scouts included as well but oh well.

 bullyboy wrote:
Yeah, having units move pretty far, especially in a game of objectives and the ability to shut down deep strike, is really useless

In the context of units that already deploy wherever they want to be in the first place, and are giving up comparatively a whole lot more than guard squads in not being able to shoot, I do not see that power worth either me passing up Hallucination/Mind Raid/Curse for, and I am also not seeing it being worth bringing another 90-odd point HQ to get it.

I think if it were in Librarius, it'd probably be the best power marines have and I would think it and might of heroes would be your two go-to powers. In the context of the obscuration discipline though, I'd skip it in most situations.

Hallucinations/Mind Raid as a standard loadout, switching out Hallucinations for Curse if your opponent had one of the builds where that power presents a serious advantage, would be the way I would run this guy, and I would find him worth including in most marine TAC builds. If I get him for my deathwatch, I'm bringing him for sure.

 bullyboy wrote:
Yeah, having units move pretty far, especially in a game of objectives and the ability to shut down deep strike, is really useless

Oh damn, I missed the Phobos keyword on the Infiltrators, damn, that's nasty.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Ehhhh...Movemovemove is 'casted' with no risk by a 30 point HQ to shoot a 40 point infantry unit across the board.

M^3 also prevents that 40 point infantry unit from receiving any other 'casts' unless the 30pt HQ has a specific Relic--and it puts them out of range in all likelihood unless you paid points for a Vox.

Temporal Passageway or whatever is casted with a 30% chance of failure by a 90 point HQ to shoot a 100 point infantry unit across the board.

I think it's SOLIDLY less powerful. Conceivably useful? Yes. But I wouldn't consider it anywhere above an average power.

For now? Yeah. But given that people continually talk about how "powerful" it is for you to be able to "shoot across the board" with a unit...you get a spell that lets you do it and it's just "average".

Personally, I like these powers. I also like/dislike them being tied to Phobos stuff. Would have liked to see Scouts included as well but oh well.

I think this more speaks to how the distinction between a competitive unit and an uncompetitive unit is a whole lot smaller than the average player probably believes. There are a number of distinctions between this power and MMM that makes MMM superior.

1) Cost, as I mentioned. MUCH cheaper units use MMM. This is probably the big one. If I'm using MMM on just one unit it is PROBABLY a suicide maneuver to score me some points. I'll sacrifice a 40 point unit much more happily than a 100pt unit.

2) Don't have to give up one of your other powers to have the option to use MMM.

3) Castable on any <regiment> infantry unit rather than only on two specific units. I can't use this power on the current meta space marine troop units. Maybe infiltrators prove to be competitive compared to Scouts when we see their point costs. I don't know. But if they're not, having to swap them out to use the power is another point against it.

4) No failure chance. Especially given you have to commit to the move (probably advancing the unit towards the objective you want) before you get to see if it casts. Also, not denyable.

5) Can cast MMM more than once if you want. I can MMM the commander to catch up to the unit, or I can MMM multiple infantry squads to flood the board.

There doesn't need to be a huge distinction between things that "feel" the same to have one be competitive and the other average. I think there's plenty between this power and MMM.

my Assessment..

Don't shoot Phobos unit unless it is the closest is okay. Concievably might get super powered with a Phobo armored Heavy support choice that is Hellblaster like.

Reroll to hit is a good one. So is ignoring cover. Always usefull.

Temporal Corridor.. If Reivers are reconed to have the Phobo keyword, this would have them scoot an average of 19.5 inches and shoot another 24 blasting away with 20 shots. Toss on the reroll to hit, and its a problem for some forces. Otherwise, situational.

Hallucination. Its not bad.. I'm tempted to add this in and play with some Grey Knights and see if I can get some big Purge Souls off.

Tenebrous Curse. WHoa Doggie. Even better if you pop this and scoot away with Temporal Corridor.

Mind Raid. I love it. Any idea if this would count to your gain 1 CP a turn?

I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

No, they need to hire PROFESSIONALS. Experts. People who have years, possibly decades, of experience designing and balancing wargames.

To my knowledge, no one here fits those criteria, and as the biggest company on the block, they have no real excuse for not hiring the best of the best.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

The librarian costs 180 points? I thought the primaris librarian cost like...100 points.

Which would be just over half the cost of the loyal 32.

None of the debuffs are bad psychic powers. The buffs are only bad because they are limited in units to cast them on.

Reemule wrote:
my Assessment..

Don't shoot Phobos unit unless it is the closest is okay. Concievably might get super powered with a Phobo armored Heavy support choice that is Hellblaster like.

Reroll to hit is a good one. So is ignoring cover. Always usefull.

Temporal Corridor.. If Reivers are reconed to have the Phobo keyword, this would have them scoot an average of 19.5 inches and shoot another 24 blasting away with 20 shots. Toss on the reroll to hit, and its a problem for some forces. Otherwise, situational.

Hallucination. Its not bad.. I'm tempted to add this in and play with some Grey Knights and see if I can get some big Purge Souls off.

Tenebrous Curse. WHoa Doggie. Even better if you pop this and scoot away with Temporal Corridor.

Mind Raid. I love it. Any idea if this would count to your gain 1 CP a turn?

1. Phobos units are infiltrators - they will always be the closest unit to the enemy. 0/5
2. Reroll hits and ignore cover COULD be good. TOO BAD the only unit that can benifit is AP-0 bolt guns. 1/5
3. Reivers DONT have phobos keyword AND Reivers are even worse than Vangaurds. PLUS THEY CAN DEEP STRIKE ANYWAYS.
4. The horror but with conditions where it does nothing - 2/5
5. Phobos makes this useless 1/5
6. Decent - mortal wounds and CP for success - still pretty bad considering it has to be used on a character and only does 1 mortal wound max.

I swear. GW is friggen oblivious when it comes to power level of spells. They don't even understand the same power in different codex can't be conditional when one is not for no trade off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

The librarian costs 180 points? I thought the primaris librarian cost like...100 points.

Which would be just over half the cost of the loyal 32.

None of the debuffs are bad psychic powers. The buffs are only bad because they are limited in units to cast them on.

Wrong they are bad...Conditional horror for the same cost? Max 1 mortal wound spells? Moving bad units? This is easily the worst psychic discipline in the game.

...Tenebrous curse has no requirement to interact with phobos, dude, it is a debuff. It is WC6 Doombolt, wtf do you want?

Hey whatsup you know those 30 ork boys you were going to da jump at me well they are now physically incapable of reaching me with a charge.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

The librarian costs 180 points? I thought the primaris librarian cost like...100 points.

Which would be just over half the cost of the loyal 32.

None of the debuffs are bad psychic powers. The buffs are only bad because they are limited in units to cast them on.

The libby will be roughly 120-140 points with a 7 power level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
...Tenebrous curse has no requirement to interact with phobos, dude, it is a debuff. It is WC6 Doombolt, wtf do you want?

Defensive buffs
Double moves

You know - spells that matter.

A thunderfire cannon does what that spell does and it kills things too. Worthless unit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

The librarian costs 180 points? I thought the primaris librarian cost like...100 points.

Which would be just over half the cost of the loyal 32.

None of the debuffs are bad psychic powers. The buffs are only bad because they are limited in units to cast them on.

The libby will be roughly 120-140 points with a 7 power level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
...Tenebrous curse has no requirement to interact with phobos, dude, it is a debuff. It is WC6 Doombolt, wtf do you want?

Defensive buffs
Double moves

You know - spells that matter.

If I learned any lesson from getting freaked out by power levels during the ork buggy release, it's "don't pretend GW actually has a rule they follow for points to PL".

Even at 120 points I like this guy for Hallucinate/mind raid swapping out hallucinate for tenebrous when the opposing army has something in it that tenebrous feths over.

 Xenomancers wrote:
1. Phobos units are infiltrators - they will always be the closest unit to the enemy. 0/5
2. Reroll hits and ignore cover COULD be good. TOO BAD the only unit that can benifit is AP-0 bolt guns. 1/5

Eliminators are Phobos too. Both powers are nice on them.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1. Phobos units are infiltrators - they will always be the closest unit to the enemy. 0/5
2. Reroll hits and ignore cover COULD be good. TOO BAD the only unit that can benifit is AP-0 bolt guns. 1/5

Eliminators are Phobos too. Both powers are nice on them.

Max squad size 3.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1. Phobos units are infiltrators - they will always be the closest unit to the enemy. 0/5
2. Reroll hits and ignore cover COULD be good. TOO BAD the only unit that can benifit is AP-0 bolt guns. 1/5

Eliminators are Phobos too. Both powers are nice on them.

If eliminators could go to like 6 or 9 I'd think it would probably be worthwhile to bring them with a libby babysitter.If you're looking at just bringing three though..just take a vindicare instead.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1. Phobos units are infiltrators - they will always be the closest unit to the enemy. 0/5
2. Reroll hits and ignore cover COULD be good. TOO BAD the only unit that can benifit is AP-0 bolt guns. 1/5

Eliminators are Phobos too. Both powers are nice on them.

Max squad size 3.

It is a pretty safe bet that it will change to six eventually. Same as Inceptors and Aggressors.

 Xenomancers wrote:



1. Phobos units are infiltrators - they will always be the closest unit to the enemy. 0/5
2. Reroll hits and ignore cover COULD be good. TOO BAD the only unit that can benifit is AP-0 bolt guns. 1/5
3. Reivers DONT have phobos keyword AND Reivers are even worse than Vangaurds. PLUS THEY CAN DEEP STRIKE ANYWAYS.
4. The horror but with conditions where it does nothing - 2/5
5. Phobos makes this useless 1/5
6. Decent - mortal wounds and CP for success - still pretty bad considering it has to be used on a character and only does 1 mortal wound max.

I swear. GW is friggen oblivious when it comes to power level of spells. They don't even understand the same power in different codex can't be conditional when one is not for no trade off.

I thought the snipers were a unit? They are the ones I don't want people to shoot. So 5/5 now? And rerolling sniper hits is where I wanted it 5/5 now? And Rivers are already being discussed to be reconed with Phobos, and Deepstrike was nerfed?

Look your glass is half empty. Not sure what you were looking for. I think its a good list. And gives several pretty good tools I'll use in my Marines. You do you though.

LEt's also not forget - chapter masters already reroll all hits.

And Gman rerolls all wounds. What does that have to do? Now your assigning a Chaptermaster to sit with them. THis guy can do it within 18, and might be cheaper.

Reemule wrote:
And Gman rerolls all wounds. What does that have to do? Now your assigning a Chapter master to sit with them. THis guy can do it within 18, and might be cheaper.

Or you could just deploy with your whole army in a reroll hits bubble...just saying.

edited by ingtaer.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
And Gman rerolls all wounds. What does that have to do? Now your assigning a Chapter master to sit with them. THis guy can do it within 18, and might be cheaper.

Or you could just deploy with your whole army in a reroll hits bubble...just saying.

And then lose on objectives, and also be incredibly vulnerable to the handful of "Affects units within X inches" abilities.

 Xenomancers wrote:


A thunderfire cannon does what that spell does and it kills things too. Worthless unit.

You did note that the spell works on Titanic units, comes on a character that can't be shot off the board trivially, does as much or more damage to anything that matters (not a lot from either, granted), and doesn't use CP? And that this gives you a second shot at stopping something nasty from moving, potentially locking down two big assault threats, if you really wanted to go down that route?

It's not an invisible death star, obviously, but surely you can see potential uses for the powers.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
And Gman rerolls all wounds. What does that have to do? Now your assigning a Chapter master to sit with them. THis guy can do it within 18, and might be cheaper.

Or you could just deploy with your whole army in a reroll hits bubble...just saying.

And then lose on objectives, and also be incredibly vulnerable to the handful of "Affects units within X inches" abilities.

Loyal 32 is on objectives dude. Get real. Be practical. If your powerful units are holding objectives it's a double bonus to kill them. Having your important units in an aura is not difficult. Plus there are any number of stratagems I could get reroll hits to that unit already from the garbage list of marine stratagems.

If I was to make a list of powers marines did not need. Rerolling hits would be first on the list and any realistic marine player would tell you the same thing. 2nd on the list would have been conditional powers that are worse than xenos counterparts - cause we already have that in librarius. What marines need is mobility and defense because get get none of that through their units own stats.
A 5+ FNP
A reroll saves power
Move and ignore penalties to shooting
Ignore slay effects of plasma
Extending range of auras

THESE ARE POWERS MARINES NEED. Not BS gimmicky crap that our stratagems already do.

My friend is discussing giving his future Space Wolf Vanguard Librarian The Temporal Coridor, move average of 19.5 inches charge, and get his deed of legend done quick.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
And Gman rerolls all wounds. What does that have to do? Now your assigning a Chapter master to sit with them. THis guy can do it within 18, and might be cheaper.

Or you could just deploy with your whole army in a reroll hits bubble...just saying.

So, is it super easy to have everything in Aura range, or do you need a power that extends their range?

Consistency, please.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
And Gman rerolls all wounds. What does that have to do? Now your assigning a Chapter master to sit with them. THis guy can do it within 18, and might be cheaper.

Or you could just deploy with your whole army in a reroll hits bubble...just saying.

What happens if you lack enough self awareness to the point you mistake your opinions as facts?

Reemule wrote:
My friend is discussing giving his future Space Wolf Vanguard Librarian The Temporal Coridor, move average of 19.5 inches charge, and get his deed of legend done quick.

I don't even know what that is but it's obviously worse than taking a libby on a bike getting 20" automatic move. Part I love the most about this is the unit MUST advance. LOL. Only marine powers get garbage conditions like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, is it super easy to have everything in Aura range, or do you need a power that extends their range?

Consistency, please.

Spells that work with how an army plays are good.

Is it just me or anyone else baffled by how strong the new discipline is? Most of them have two part effects - not even eldar has that.

GW needs to tone down on the codex creep for sure.

 skchsan wrote:
Is it just me or anyone else baffled by how strong the new discipline is? Most of them have two part effects - not even eldar has that.

GW needs to tone down on the codex creep for sure.

I don't see creep with these at all. They could have gone to invisibility territory, but they didn't.

 skchsan wrote:
Is it just me or anyone else baffled by how strong the new discipline is? Most of them have two part effects - not even eldar has that.

GW needs to tone down on the codex creep for sure.

Yeah it's pretty obvious when you compare hallucination to the horror. And Quicken to temporal vortex. Except its the exact opposite of what you are saying - they are worse versions of previous powers.

 skchsan wrote:
Is it just me or anyone else baffled by how strong the new discipline is? Most of them have two part effects - not even eldar has that.

GW needs to tone down on the codex creep for sure.

Those "two parts" powers tend to be strictly inferior to other existing powers, so no, nothing to see here.

It's an alright discipline IMO. Nothing groundbreakingly good or something you'd ally in that libby just for, but if he is not much more expensive than a normal libby I think he would be pretty decent. Combine him with a thunderfire cannon and you can effectively stop two units from being able to play the game + he has can snag you a couple of command points here and there.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
It's an alright discipline IMO. Nothing groundbreakingly good or something you'd ally in that libby just for, but if he is not much more expensive than a normal libby I think he would be pretty decent. Combine him with a thunderfire cannon and you can effectively stop two units from being able to play the game + he has can snag you a couple of command points here and there.

Can you name me a worse discipline?

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm a realist. Garbage powers are garbage. To defend garbage makes you garbage.

Clear violation of Rule #1. I don't even know why you're trying to say it's not.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
And Gman rerolls all wounds. What does that have to do? Now your assigning a Chapter master to sit with them. THis guy can do it within 18, and might be cheaper.

Or you could just deploy with your whole army in a reroll hits bubble...just saying.

I'm a realist. Garbage powers are garbage. To defend garbage makes you garbage.

Apparently rule 1 stops applying when you just violate it blatantly enough.

It is not a violation of rule 1. It is not a personal attack. It is a broad statement about those who defend garbage content and garbage is hardly an insult anyways. It is a substitution for an insult. More of a joke.

Except it isn't the worst discipline ever, and arguably better than Librarius. Therefore you're actually defending your garbage points. Powers 3-6 definitely have great use, and if you can't see that you've really proven you don't know what the issues with Marine armies are. Which, to be fair, you've proven time and time again.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

Bare in mind that this is most likely from the Shadow spear index. Remember in that same index for chaos the marines are locked in for their options. But if I'm wrong, fingers crossed I'm not, I will happily lose my mind with you

I’m cool with the chaos powers being awesome and powerful. However, let’s talk regular marines for a minute... isn’t it NICE seeing the salt of these players? Seeing them be so upset their chapters can’t stack up against us Xenos/chaos? I say if these powers are even somewhat OK, we need to find ways/loop holes/email GW to get those nerfing FAQS started! Who is with me?

Speaking for myself:
I'm happy with Obscuration. There's a couple powers that currently are duds but I definitely can see a place for most of them.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m cool with the chaos powers being awesome and powerful. However, let’s talk regular marines for a minute... isn’t it NICE seeing the salt of these players? Seeing them be so upset their chapters can’t stack up against us Xenos/chaos? I say if these powers are even somewhat OK, we need to find ways/loop holes/email GW to get those nerfing FAQS started! Who is with me?

Yes, those poor, downtrodden Eldar really deserve some love. Why, they weren't top tier back in 5th edition! I can understand how that must be a real trauma. Tau are also the true victims of the world. Why, the entire vehicle/MC split was removed to weaken their signature unit! So unfair!

Meanwhile, I've stopped playing my Black Templars because it's just not a challenge any more. I can get 40 S4 AP- attacks in melee for only 160 points, and with a 12" Fly move to boot! Or, I could just let the enemy's psykers cast their feeble spells and laugh as I cruelly use my mighty stratagem to deny one of the spells 50% of the time! What horror! It is too much.

I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

I haven't seen the Chaos powers (don't know if they're leaked yet) but the Obscuration looks fine to me. Looks fluffy, aimed at the units in the box. It's obviously not intended as a broad all-Marine based power set. It has useful, not overly potent powers. I've seen far worse powers in play in 40K.

I actually also like how limited they are. Gives me hope we'll see some more narrower psychic tables to add theme/elements to certain armies. Also, it's fairly obvious that some pre-emptive safeties are being taken by producing stuff like this. The narrower focus of the powers means you won't get unintended combinations which are running rampant throughout 8th right now (combining allied units, stratagems and spells to produce heinous actions on the tabletop, etc.).

The main beef I have is that the Psyker isn't fast (though he can deepstrike right?). I have found that psykers without bikes or jump packs are far less useful in this game unless they're sitting in a castle. Some of these spells will make the already broken Eliminators even more of a problem.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m cool with the chaos powers being awesome and powerful. However, let’s talk regular marines for a minute... isn’t it NICE seeing the salt of these players? Seeing them be so upset their chapters can’t stack up against us Xenos/chaos? I say if these powers are even somewhat OK, we need to find ways/loop holes/email GW to get those nerfing FAQS started! Who is with me?

Yes, those poor, downtrodden Eldar really deserve some love. Why, they weren't top tier back in 5th edition! I can understand how that must be a real trauma. Tau are also the true victims of the world. Why, the entire vehicle/MC split was removed to weaken their signature unit! So unfair!

Meanwhile, I've stopped playing my Black Templars because it's just not a challenge any more. I can get 40 S4 AP- attacks in melee for only 160 points, and with a 12" Fly move to boot! Or, I could just let the enemy's psykers cast their feeble spells and laugh as I cruelly use my mighty stratagem to deny one of the spells 50% of the time! What horror! It is too much.

I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

Bruh mistakes #1 is you play marines. To fix this, sell them all and go buy eldar. Instant fun in game. /notkidding /yoursarcasmwaspoor

I am liking Obscuration. I am going to be running a Battalion of Phobos units, so powers 1-3 will have use. Especially on my Eliminators when Chapter Tactics trigger. I really like the offensive powers. Mind Raid helps deal with my CP problem (no CP recovery for Crimson Fists). All in all, I am running thar Phobos Librarian for sure, even if I wasn't running Phobos units (which I am).

Chaos powers have been leaked. I'm.mobile so can't grab the image but I wrote a summary. The number in parentheses is the casting value based on what it looked like in the image.
---------------

INCURSION (7)
Attempt to summon a unit of <DAEMONS> using Daemonic Ritual as if it was the Movement Phase. Roll up to 4 dice instead of 3. Never suffer mortal wounds from the roll

SACRIFICE (4)
Pick model within 2", that model takes a mortal wound. Choose a friendly <LEGION> DAEMON model within 18", it regains D3 lost wounds. If it's a DAEMON ENGINE and the model you inflicted the mortal wound on was a friendly <LEGION> WARPSMITH, the Daemon Engine regains 3 wounds

MUTATED INVIGORATION (7)
Select one friendly CHAOS SPAWN, <LEGION> POSSESSED or <LEGION> CULT OF DESTRUCTION within 18" Until start of next Psychic phase:

* Chaos Spawn re-roll dice for Mutated Beyond Reason
* Re-roll when determining Attacks for Possessed
* RE-roll one of the dice for Strength, AP or Damage for Obliterators

POSSESSION (5)
Psyker's melee weapon AP is improved by 2 (e.g. AP -1 becomes -3). Each time he destroys an enemy INFANTRY CHARACTER add a Chaos Spawn. If model destroyed was ADEPTUS ASTARTES or HERETIC ASTARTES, add a Greater Possessed. Model has to be within 6" of psyker and more than 1" from enemy models. Each time he destroys a VEHICLE, it automatically explodes, and the psyker ignores any mortal wounds the explosion may cause.

CURSED EARTH (7)
Invulnerable saves of <LEGION> DAEMON units within 6" of psyker are improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3++)

INFERNAL POWER (6)
Re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by friendly <LEGION> DAEMON units within 6" of psyker
```

sounds about what I expected. it'as a summoning and deamon buffing disiple. proably not that great for matched play but potentially fun in a scenerio.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m cool with the chaos powers being awesome and powerful. However, let’s talk regular marines for a minute... isn’t it NICE seeing the salt of these players? Seeing them be so upset their chapters can’t stack up against us Xenos/chaos? I say if these powers are even somewhat OK, we need to find ways/loop holes/email GW to get those nerfing FAQS started! Who is with me?

Yes, those poor, downtrodden Eldar really deserve some love. Why, they weren't top tier back in 5th edition! I can understand how that must be a real trauma. Tau are also the true victims of the world. Why, the entire vehicle/MC split was removed to weaken their signature unit! So unfair!

Meanwhile, I've stopped playing my Black Templars because it's just not a challenge any more. I can get 40 S4 AP- attacks in melee for only 160 points, and with a 12" Fly move to boot! Or, I could just let the enemy's psykers cast their feeble spells and laugh as I cruelly use my mighty stratagem to deny one of the spells 50% of the time! What horror! It is too much.

I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

Don't feed the troll.

Thanks Wayniac! These look much more appealing than I expected, especially for running daemon engines. Too bad the MoP isn't fast. I literally lol'd at the part about hurting warpsmiths.

Does it cost reinforcement points to summon spawns from the power that increases weapon ap?

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Thanks Wayniac! These look much more appealing than I expected, especially for running daemon engines. Too bad the MoP isn't fast. I literally lol'd at the part about hurting warpsmiths.

Does it cost reinforcement points to summon spawns from the power that increases weapon ap?

Unless it specifically says it doesn't, it does.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds about what I expected. it'as a summoning and deamon buffing disiple. proably not that great for matched play but potentially fun in a scenerio.

Oh it's quite spicy for daemon engine lovers. Sucks for Thousand Sons though.

A bubble of +1 invuln and reroll 1s to hit and wound on engines is pretty nice. Now how does one keep him from being sniped...

A squad of Obliterators with buffed guns and invuln, shooting twice seems worthy of matched play to me. The ability to summon in the psychic phase is very interesting also.

 Slowroll wrote:
A squad of Obliterators with buffed guns and invuln, shooting twice seems worthy of matched play to me. The ability to summon in the psychic phase is very interesting also.

That might be a stretch to invest so much for that. I'd drop the invuln for reroll 1s on hits and wounds. If they're in cover that invuln won't be touched most of the time anyway.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds about what I expected. it'as a summoning and deamon buffing disiple. proably not that great for matched play but potentially fun in a scenerio.

Summoning power sounds great, until you realise you'll realistically only have a use to cast it maybe once or twice in the entire game? (Assuming matched play where you have to set aside points)

powers 5 and 6 I see becoming the "default" set for MOP. Parking him around a bunch of maulerfiends/forgefiends would actually make them quite decent combined with the points drop they got in CA

 Slowroll wrote:
A squad of Obliterators with buffed guns and invuln, shooting twice seems worthy of matched play to me. The ability to summon in the psychic phase is very interesting also.

Summoning in the Psychic Phase removes one of the biggest issues that Daemonic Ritual had: Characters had to give up their Movement Phase.

Not only can he Move+Advance, (have a Sorcerer cast Warp Time to move again) he can also summon without fear of hurting himself.

Only "complaint" is the power feels out of place. 4/6 buff <LEGION> DAEMONS and then you have a second summon and Possession, which is a great buff, except the only target is a mediocre fighter (WS3+, 3A)

I looked at my Chaos Daemon stratagems and found something useful:
DAEMONIC PACT (1CP) when a Character summons. Immediately perform a second Daemonic Ritual.

If the Incursion power is used and summons a unit. Can you DAEMONIC PACT to summon a second unit w/ 4 dice and ignoring the wounding penalty for doubles/triples?

I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

 McGibs wrote:
I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

You can make an argument that the auto exploding vehicles is nice, but that's often too specific a situation you would want it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

You can make an argument that the auto exploding vehicles is nice, but that's often too specific a situation you would want it.

Currently only the Master of Possession can take Possession, which the MoP is (w/ Possession) 3A WS3+ S6 AP-3 Dd3. On a M6" unit.

Short of giving the MoP a Sorcerer babysitter for Prescience and Diabolic Strength. The odds of the extra buffs of Possession coming into play are slim.

Loafing wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

You can make an argument that the auto exploding vehicles is nice, but that's often too specific a situation you would want it.

Currently only the Master of Possession can take Possession, which the MoP is (w/ Possession) 3A WS3+ S6 AP-3 Dd3. On a M6" unit.

Short of giving the MoP a Sorcerer babysitter for Prescience and Diabolic Strength. The odds of the extra buffs of Possession coming into play are slim.

I thought he was four attacks.

Wow that IS a bad power.

Not a combat power house but making him -5 AP would be quite a psychological deterrent especially if other support/lesser characters are hanging around. Would be curious to see if it's FAQed to require reinforcement points for Spawn/Greater Possessed.

My guess is a MoP running Cursed Earth and Infernal Power surrounded by 3x3 oblits will be the new Chaos meta (and then cultist spam for troops.)

I like mutated inviguration, it takes away from the downside Spawn and Possessed suffer from. Warp charge 7 is a little high though I'd say.
I think a Greater Possessed, a sorcerer, a master of Possessed and about 20 Possesed would make for a nice party.

the_scotsman wrote:
...Tenebrous curse has no requirement to interact with phobos, dude, it is a debuff. It is WC6 Doombolt, wtf do you want?

Hey whatsup you know those 30 ork boys you were going to da jump at me well they are now physically incapable of reaching me with a charge.

Out of curiosity how were you planning to get your 18" need LOS psyker within 18" of orks that are hiding behind LOS blocking terrain? Because that's where any da jumping units will be waiting rather than in open to be shot at will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
If I learned any lesson from getting freaked out by power levels during the ork buggy release, it's "don't pretend GW actually has a rule they follow for points to PL".

Even at 120 points I like this guy for Hallucinate/mind raid swapping out hallucinate for tenebrous when the opposing army has something in it that tenebrous feths over.

Umm...Ork buggies. Cost/PL:

boomdakka 100/5
Kustom boosta blasta 100/5
megatrak 110/5
rukkatrukk 140/7
shokkjump 120/6

points/20 is pretty well followed. Only megatrak is oddity where it rounds down rather than up. They do have rule that actually is pretty much spot on...

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

They'd only need to read this post and KNOW this is not a person who you'd want to work on your game, because he clearly has so much respect for his potential co workers Please show GW some respect in their line of work, not everything ever has, or ever will be top tier options. The powers work great in the box set and the campaign setting.

Also I quite like the MoP's powers to choose from, +1 invul is tasty! I've always been a big lover of Daemons (Hell I collect Chaos Daemons, I left CSM at start of 8th but looks like Im damn well coming back now Abbadon! Im coming home!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

Can we all just take a moment to exalt this please? Brilliant. I will be taking sarchasm all day. Well played Walrus.

Summoning power can be a huge double edged sword:

Scenario: I need to bring down my pink horrors. I can 1. not move and bring them down, 2. Play greedy, move + advance, maybe even warptime and then go for summoning them in the front. Then I miss my 7+ to cast and I am completely screwed for the round. Or it gets denied. I think the venomcrawler should be giving the MoP a +1 to cast instead of +1 to the summoning roll.

Overall I think it's highly situational and will not really push summoning as a real strategy for CSM. Daemons still can do it way more efficiently and safe.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I like mutated inviguration, it takes away from the downside Spawn and Possessed suffer from. Warp charge 7 is a little high though I'd say.
I think a Greater Possessed, a sorcerer, a master of Possessed and about 20 Possesed would make for a nice party.

You can then take a similarly aligned Herald for extra buffs. (+1S again)

(If it's in a Daemon detachment you also get a Loci aura)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Not a combat power house but making him -5 AP would be quite a psychological deterrent especially if other support/lesser characters are hanging around. Would be curious to see if it's FAQed to require reinforcement points for Spawn/Greater Possessed.

The MoP has a Force Stave. So only AP-1 base, becoming AP-3 with Possession.

No FAQ is required. The Reinforcement rules state that if you're creating a new unit, you pay reinforcement points unless stated otherwise.

Possession doesn't state that reinforcement points are ignored. So you have to pay for Spawns and Possessed

Apparently, there was a line I missed in Possession that also makes the caster immune to mortal wounds from the explosion when vehicles explode (I will update the original post to reflect this).

Personally, I still don't see summoning as being that viable for Matched Play since you have to "play down" due to it requiring points, but it seems to at least be opened up as an option that might have some tactical application. Sacrifice, Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power all seem to be pretty good. Possession seems like it's a niche ability in Matched Play but not bad, and Incursion I think is the only bad power simply as a result of summoning being so rare in Matched Play, and even that becomes useful if you want to try and summon something reliably.

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently, there was a line I missed in Possession that also makes the caster immune to mortal wounds from the explosion when vehicles explode (I will update the original post to reflect this).

Personally, I still don't see summoning as being that viable for Matched Play since you have to "play down" due to it requiring points, but it seems to at least be opened up as an option that might have some tactical application. Sacrifice, Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power all seem to be pretty good. Possession seems like it's a niche ability in Matched Play but not bad, and Incursion I think is the only bad power simply as a result of summoning being so rare in Matched Play, and even that becomes useful if you want to try and summon something reliably.

Well this fixes most of issues. Playing down on points isn't THAT uncommon. Orks play so for turn or two with tellyportas as well. Or sitting around in safe corner ready for da jump to send them somewhere.

It's basically customisable deep striking but with casting rather than CP.

Wayniac wrote:


Personally, I still don't see summoning as being that viable for Matched Play since you have to "play down" due to it requiring points, but it seems to at least be opened up as an option that might have some tactical application. Sacrifice, Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power all seem to be pretty good. Possession seems like it's a niche ability in Matched Play but not bad, and Incursion I think is the only bad power simply as a result of summoning being so rare in Matched Play, and even that becomes useful if you want to try and summon something reliably.

There was a Chaos list in the top 8? of LVO that was summoning based (~615pts in Reinforcements)

[This doesn't mean Summoning is in a perfect place. But just brought it up as it seems most people think Daemonic Ritual is unplayable]

I like and dislike Incursion. Incursion really helps avoid some of summonings weaknesses (giving up movement, avg of 3d6 is 10.5, potentially hurt yourself), but it's a bandage fix, only the MoP has "good" summoning.

The ability to summon after moving means the MoP can move+advance (losing pistol shot) and then summon 12" away. That gives you 18+D6" move on your summoned unit. And now the MoP has units to hide behind.

With 4 dice you can usually get over 12, which is 30 lesser daemons. Yes you can Denizens in the Warp. But for 30, that's 2CP you saved.

I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Not sure I just heard it being said he was cheating the entire tournament, I haven't found any details on it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Why wouldn't you be allowed to summon T1?

Loafing wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Why wouldn't you be allowed to summon T1?

Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

the summoning guy was 100% not cheating, let's not create false stories. There was a question about summoning on turn 1, the TO gave the decision in his favor (as is the 100% logic thing to do) and he played his games after that.

However this guy had daemon summoning which is completely different than CSM summoning. With infernal entrapturess (which is miles better than the MoP) having a nice shooting dual profile attack, offering great psychic disruption AND having a huge summoning bonus without having to resort to a mediocre venomcrawler for it. Also he used the nurgle tree, which offers better cover saves, free fall back and charge for all his army and rerolls on all summoning rolls.

I don't see how CSM can match that any time soon.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


However this guy had daemon summoning which is completely different than CSM summoning. With infernal entrapturess (which is miles better than the MoP) having a nice shooting dual profile attack, offering great psychic disruption AND having a huge summoning bonus without having to resort to a mediocre venomcrawler for it. Also he used the nurgle tree, which offers better cover saves, free fall back and charge for all his army and rerolls on all summoning rolls.

I don't see how CSM can match that any time soon.

Do we know what he summoned? As the IR can only summon Slaaneshi daemons. And his list had Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch Characters. So he had options to summon.

Infernal Rapturess: +3 when summoning SLAANESH Daemons only. She also has the same anti-psyker aura as MOP, but 24" vs 12"


As for the trees, they're a GREAT addition to a Nurgle Daemonkin player.

Gnarlmaws: reroll any dice when a CHAOS CHARACTER summons NURGLE daemons

A Master of Possession CAN benefit from the Gnarlmaws. And the Gnarlmaws help ALL NURGLE DAEMONS
(Your Nurgle Possessed / Warp Talon / Obliterators get +2 to Sv via Cover)
(All Nurgle Daemons (including Daemon Engines) can advance, shoot, and charge / fall back and shoot.

That's the point. Having 60pt characters who can summon anything from different gods and also having stuff to actually boos this ability is strategically valid, as you will be overwhelming your opponent by basically sideboarding 30% of your army.

Having to pay MoP points (I would guess close to 100+) to get a situational summon spell on a 7+ (45% to not even cast, before denies) is not the way to go about summoning.

I don't think the venomcrawler is the CSM Gnarlmaw.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

Sadly, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power are all that matters. This locks in the Slaaneshi Obliterators as the only real valid build now.

Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Delightful Agonies, Prescience, now your Obliterators have 4++/5+++ at T5, they hit on a 2+, give them Veterans and Endless Cacophony that's 36 shots. Gaze of Fate and Command re-roll to skew the weapon variability to your advantage. That's probably killing virtually anything it shoots at.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

I wouldn't rely on a 7+ cast spell to allow me to summon or not.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I wouldn't rely on a 7+ cast spell to allow me to summon or not.

Oh, I wouldn't run that crap, too much potential to screw up.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

Sadly, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power are all that matters. This locks in the Slaaneshi Obliterators as the only real valid build now.

Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Delightful Agonies, Prescience, now your Obliterators have 4++/5+++ at T5, they hit on a 2+, give them Veterans and Endless Cacophony that's 36 shots. Gaze of Fate and Command re-roll to skew the weapon variability to your advantage. That's probably killing virtually anything it shoots at.

Banner of Blood is a use before the battle. So unless FAQ'D, I don't think you can use it on summoned units.


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topaxygouroun i wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

I wouldn't rely on a 7+ cast spell to allow me to summon or not.

But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

Loafing wrote:
But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

Oh yeah, Ahriman is casting Prescience, so it's a 6+, no big. Cursed Earth is nice to have, but not critical. Also, you'll have command re-roll during psychic phase to make sure things go off. Or Cabalistic Focus available, at least in the list I'm envisioning.


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Loafing wrote:
Banner of Blood is a use before the battle. So unless FAQ'D, I don't think you can use it on summoned units.

You're correct. Yeah, as I said, I wouldn't use it, too gimmicky.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Loafing wrote:
But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

Oh yeah, Ahriman is casting Prescience, so it's a 6+, no big. Cursed Earth is nice to have, but not critical. Also, you'll have command re-roll during psychic phase to make sure things go off. Or Cabalistic Focus available, at least in the list I'm envisioning.

Why is Command Reroll available for Cursed Earth and not Incursion?
(Just seems a bit biased that when criticizing a 7+ power there is no assistance, but on favoured 7+, everything's in your favour.)

Also (please correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think Cabalistic Focus will assist with Cursed Earth as it is +2 for THOUSAND SONS only. And only the Master of Possession has access to Malefic. (And unless FAQ'd/stated in Shadowspear, THOUSAND SONS is not valid for <LEGION&gt

OH LAWDY

Loafing wrote:
Also (please correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think Cabalistic Focus will assist with Cursed Earth as it is +2 for THOUSAND SONS only. And only the Master of Possession has access to Malefic. (And unless FAQ'd/stated in Shadowspear, THOUSAND SONS is not valid for <LEGION&gt

Yes, but you'll have it for Prescience. Also, as Daed just pointed out Warp Lord, I'm less concerned about those checks.

But hey, run with summoning, perhaps you'll find an amazing angle for it all.

Personally, I've been trying to see a use for summoning outside of straight Daemons lists for awhile and really a squad of Pink Horrors is about as interesting as it gets.

Loafing wrote:


But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

If I fail prescience, one of my units will shoot a little bit worse (and I can remedy that with a shaman or a character reroll ability somehow). If I fail cursed earth, my maulerfiend or enlightened will be a tad bit more squishy (and I can remedy that with weaver of fates if i need to). But if I fail to roll 7+ to summon, this means that 1. I also lost my change to movement phase summoning this turn, since I was counting on the psychic phase). 2. My unit worth 150 or even more points is not on the table. Cannot shoot at all, cannot fight at all, cannot protect my precious targets from charging at all. My whole strategy goes one turn behind. Oh and if this was the third battle turn, my unit is now dead forever.

If you need to summon stuff as opposed to just bringing a daemon detachment along, this means that you need that particular unit at that particular moment. You can't leave that on a coin flip.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
OH LAWDY

Where did that come from?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Where did that come from?

Preview on the WHC stie, that may just be auto-take.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Where did that come from?

Preview on the WHC stie, that may just be auto-take.

In a CSM list 100%. In a Thousand Sons list it would compete with High Magister and I don't know which one is best.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
In a CSM list 100%. In a Thousand Sons list it would compete with High Magister and I don't know which one is best.

I usually take Arrogance of Aeons and load any high difficulty powers on Ahriman. Cabalistic Focus usually takes care of the rest. CSM are the ones that need some help getting their powers off in my experience.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
In a CSM list 100%. In a Thousand Sons list it would compete with High Magister and I don't know which one is best.

I usually take Arrogance of Aeons and load any high difficulty powers on Ahriman. Cabalistic Focus usually takes care of the rest. CSM are the ones that need some help getting their powers off in my experience.

If I wasn't going for high Magister every time (I hate failing to cast spells and it gives me a second character with +1, plus familiar on the termie sorc and reroll on the shaman, or I put it on the termie sorc for +4 to cast the Death hex I want on demand), I would go for Aetherstride on a DP with diabolic strength.


On the other hand, if I bring a dedicated Daemon Engine list, being able to reroll 1's on my cursed earth has suddenly changed my mind about the usefulness of this spell if I am able to take the 56% success into the 70-something % range.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
On the other hand, if I bring a dedicated Daemon Engine list, being able to reroll 1's on my cursed earth has suddenly changed my mind about the usefulness of this spell if I am able to take the 56% success into the 70-something % range.

Usually I make Gaze of Fate the first power I cast, then you have that and command re-roll to get you through the rest of the phase if necessary.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
On the other hand, if I bring a dedicated Daemon Engine list, being able to reroll 1's on my cursed earth has suddenly changed my mind about the usefulness of this spell if I am able to take the 56% success into the 70-something % range.

Usually I make Gaze of Fate the first power I cast, then you have that and command re-roll to get you through the rest of the phase if necessary.

In my experience I am always frugal with my gaze of fate reroll. I keep it in case I perils, if I don't then I keep in in my shooting phase for the d6 battlecannon shots, if I don't then I keep it for if I fail a charge roll and finally I end up wasting it on something useless like a single melee attack on a tzaangor :(

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Ive heard tell he was also rolling 1 dice at a time for summons, then stopping once he hit the roll he wanted to avoid mortals/ killing characters. This is from several people who witnessed it.

Malefic trait #2 previewed as well, giving an extra deny and potential heal whilst causing enemy perils on any doubles would make the MOP quite a handy anti-psyker support.

I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

"I have cover!"

"I ignore cover!"

"I have an ability that says I can't lose the benefits of cover!"

"I have a rule that increases AP by 1 against people in cover!"

"I gain +2 to my save in cover!"

"I have a rule that ignores your rule!"

Yeah... Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

"I have cover!"

"I ignore cover!"

"I have an ability that says I can't lose the benefits of cover!"

"I have a rule that increases AP by 1 against people in cover!"

"I gain +2 to my save in cover!"

"I have a rule that ignores your rule!"

Yeah... Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

Not sure if playing 40k or Yugi-oh

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

"I have cover!"

"I ignore cover!"

"I have an ability that says I can't lose the benefits of cover!"

"I have a rule that increases AP by 1 against people in cover!"

"I gain +2 to my save in cover!"

"I have a rule that ignores your rule!"

Yeah... Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

Not sure if playing 40k or Yugi-oh

Stratagems are just trap cards: change my mind

 fraser1191 wrote:
Stratagems are just trap cards: change my mind

Nah. Only SOME are.

Others are played proactively, like the Chapter Master Equip Card.

I hope the DG get access to these new powers +1 invuln save to plagueburst crawlers seems real good.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I hope the DG get access to these new powers +1 invuln save to plagueburst crawlers seems real good.

DG and TS will not get access to these powers, or at least I'd be very surprised if they did.

TS has some clearly sketchy combos that GW probably doesn't want in play, like a 20 man squad of Tzaangors with a 3++ for 140 points.

DG has so many vehicles that would benefit from these powers it would probably turn them into the super-castle army.

Also, given their lack of access to Warpsmiths and most types of Daemonkin (DG only get Possessed), 2 of the powers are rather odd fits for their lists.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
I hope the DG get access to these new powers +1 invuln save to plagueburst crawlers seems real good.

DG and TS will not get access to these powers, or at least I'd be very surprised if they did.

TS has some clearly sketchy combos that GW probably doesn't want in play, like a 20 man squad of Tzaangors with a 3++ for 140 points.

DG has so many vehicles that would benefit from these powers it would probably turn them into the super-castle army.

Also, given their lack of access to Warpsmiths and most types of Daemonkin (DG only get Possessed), 2 of the powers are rather odd fits for their lists.

Tzaangors are not daemons, can't benefit from cursed earth.

Many people worry about TS going overboard with this, but basically the only things that can get a 3++ reliably with cursed earth would be Daemon Princes and ahriman on disk (though they would have to stay 6" from a footlogging sorcerer), and then it would be tzaangor enlightened or the daemon engines , but that's with two 7+ cast powers in play at the same time, and the payoff is really not that good.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Tzaangors are not daemons, can't benefit from cursed earth.

Many people worry about TS going overboard with this, but basically the only things that can get a 3++ reliably with cursed earth would be Daemon Princes and ahriman on disk (though they would have to stay 6" from a footlogging sorcerer), and then it would be tzaangor enlightened or the daemon engines , but that's with two 7+ cast powers in play at the same time, and the payoff is really not that good.

Good point, that'll teach me to not check the codex, I still doubt they'll get the Discipline, being able to combo Weaver of Fates and Cursed Earth is something I'm pretty sure GW doesn't want to allow. Just the ability to go from one DP with a 3++ to 3 with a 3++ on one power is probably not something they'd be thrilled about.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I hope the DG get access to these new powers +1 invuln save to plagueburst crawlers seems real good.

Highly doubt it. Would love to be wrong though, but Daemonkin stuff will be CSM only.