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We're getting two new psychic disciplines soon. I think this has a real chance to shake things up - especially for marines (as long as they don't apply to IG units).

Since GW is fond of pulling up old(ish) stuff I pulled the old spells cards out.

Malefic had spells to summon elites, minor characters, troops, or a greater daemon (and gibs your caster). I'm not sure if these can come back with the need to pay for points and it competes with ritual.

The other spells were a +1 Invuln in a bubble for Daemons and a couple damage based spells. The hints have pointed toward debuff style spells so we may see entirely new things here. Obscuration will likely have an invisibility style spell.

So, go wild with speculation. Hopefully we'll see some really cool spells soon.

Obscuration I can 100% see a power to grant a chapter unit -1 to be hit. Perhaps another that makes an infantry unit unable to be targeted unless they are the closest (Very powerful).

Because we really need more stackable -1 to hit modifiers.

Sigh.

I would be very surprised if Malefic didn't have a Summoning power. It would not actually compete with Ritual, since you would be able to move first (Move happens before Psychic).
That makes a big difference.

-

zerosignal wrote:
Because we really need more stackable -1 to hit modifiers.

Sigh.

Hey, it's A-OK if it's space marines getting something that's cancer. It's only OP stupid garbage that needs nerfed if Eldar or Tau have it.

if obscuration has a -1 to hit spell I'll bet that it's explicitly worded so as to not stack.

I'm popping some popcorn right now.

Quasistellar wrote:
if obscuration has a -1 to hit spell I'll bet that it's explicitly worded so as to not stack.

I'm popping some popcorn right now.

As much as that would suck for marine players to get a modifier that doesn't stack while others get to stack up everything it would be a move in the right direction.

 Galef wrote:
I would be very surprised if Malefic didn't have a Summoning power. It would not actually compete with Ritual, since you would be able to move first (Move happens before Psychic).
That makes a big difference.

-

That's a pretty good point. Also a more guaranteed result on the number of models summoned. Hmmm...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
We're getting two new psychic disciplines soon. I think this has a real chance to shake things up - especially for marines (as long as they don't apply to IG units).


The other spells were a +1 Invuln in a bubble for Daemons and a couple damage based spells. The hints have pointed toward debuff style spells so we may see entirely new things here. Obscuration will likely have an invisibility style spell.

I'd be so down with just that, for me it would probably make daemonkin army possible and maybe even good. Lots of possessed, greater possessed, forgefiend, etc. With Herald from a choosen god and some daemon troop, would be a really cool army concept!

It would be interesting if Malefic powers included something akin to the Thousand Sons power where they can yank units out of existence and re-deploy them, only with daemons. Basically if the Master of Possessions could re-deploy a daemon unit on the board, etc. Have a character on the backfield performing rituals, while the Master re-distributes them in the psychic phase, etc.

A cool way to do Malefic powers, which would match with the concepts of Shadespire, would be to allow Malefic powers to summon daemons for free by sacrificing existing units.

Imagine you could "heal" a <Legion> <Daemon> <Infantry> unit by sacrificing it to the dark gods, and then getting a full-strength Daemon unit summoned in its place for the same power level. <Character> units could then bring in <Character> Daemons, and <Vehicle> units could bring in <Monster> Daemons.

Here we go!

Ok but that's Imperial, who cares

GOGO gimme Malefic!

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Ok but that's Imperial, who cares

GOGO gimme Malefic!

True, but grabbing a CP from a spell is baller. Not a single spell I wouldn't try to find a use for if I could. It gives me hope for Malefic.

I also half expected only 3 spells, but 6 is just fantastic.

the_scotsman wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Because we really need more stackable -1 to hit modifiers.

Sigh.

Hey, it's A-OK if it's space marines getting something that's cancer. It's only OP stupid garbage that needs nerfed if Eldar or Tau have it.

Please keep playing martyr. We will all remember your sacrifice.

Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

Warptime Light, or Psychic Move Move Move, is very potent, and is the main reason I think you'd want this psyker. The value of being able to move again, even if you aren't able to deal damage from that new position, cannot be understated. Using Move Move Move as an order with no roll required is BONKERS. Absolutely BONKERS. This still requires a roll, but hey, you still get Move Move Move out of it. Move, Advance, then move and Advance 3d6 pick highest. Minimum is 14" movement, most likely is 20" movement. You can steal some stupid objectives like that.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

Inceptors were the same way initially. It's just because they're in the pseudo codex. Once Primaris get their own reboot codex from the next wave you'll see unit sizes bumped.

Glad it's just the Phobos units currently. Infiltrator Squads are nasty, amazing board control.

 Yarium wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well....the first half seem intensely limited. They can only be cast on 3 units total, which have very small unit sizes. IIRC the heavy weapon guys aren't even "phobos" keyworded?

At first I thought that buff spell might be handy to have on Eliminators, effectively letting them use their multidamage rounds and also reroll cover and also reroll hits, fairly nice..but then I saw their unit minimum is the same as their unit cap...three models. Ouch.

Worst spell: Definitely what I'm going to call "Craptime". No space marine unit can advance and still charge. Reivers with carbines are the only unit that can use the power and still shoot. Ooooooooof.

Best spells: Tenebrous is amazing vs knights that want to move and a few other opponents like genestealers, ork boyz that want to da jump, etc. There are few edge cases where this power is amaaaazing, so it's nice to have in your back pocket.

Hallucination and Mind Raid are both quite good. I feel like that's the "default" vanguard libby powerset.

Warptime Light, or Psychic Move Move Move, is very potent, and is the main reason I think you'd want this psyker. The value of being able to move again, even if you aren't able to deal damage from that new position, cannot be understated. Using Move Move Move as an order with no roll required is BONKERS. Absolutely BONKERS. This still requires a roll, but hey, you still get Move Move Move out of it. Move, Advance, then move and Advance 3d6 pick highest. Minimum is 14" movement, most likely is 20" movement. You can steal some stupid objectives like that.

Ehhhh...Movemovemove is 'casted' with no risk by a 30 point HQ to shoot a 40 point infantry unit across the board.

Temporal Passageway or whatever is casted with a 30% chance of failure by a 90 point HQ to shoot a 100 point infantry unit across the board.

I think it's SOLIDLY less powerful. Conceivably useful? Yes. But I wouldn't consider it anywhere above an average power.

Yeah, having units move pretty far, especially in a game of objectives and the ability to shut down deep strike, is really useless

the_scotsman wrote:

Ehhhh...Movemovemove is 'casted' with no risk by a 30 point HQ to shoot a 40 point infantry unit across the board.

M^3 also prevents that 40 point infantry unit from receiving any other 'casts' unless the 30pt HQ has a specific Relic--and it puts them out of range in all likelihood unless you paid points for a Vox.

Temporal Passageway or whatever is casted with a 30% chance of failure by a 90 point HQ to shoot a 100 point infantry unit across the board.

I think it's SOLIDLY less powerful. Conceivably useful? Yes. But I wouldn't consider it anywhere above an average power.

For now? Yeah. But given that people continually talk about how "powerful" it is for you to be able to "shoot across the board" with a unit...you get a spell that lets you do it and it's just "average".

Personally, I like these powers. I also like/dislike them being tied to Phobos stuff. Would have liked to see Scouts included as well but oh well.

 bullyboy wrote:
Yeah, having units move pretty far, especially in a game of objectives and the ability to shut down deep strike, is really useless

In the context of units that already deploy wherever they want to be in the first place, and are giving up comparatively a whole lot more than guard squads in not being able to shoot, I do not see that power worth either me passing up Hallucination/Mind Raid/Curse for, and I am also not seeing it being worth bringing another 90-odd point HQ to get it.

I think if it were in Librarius, it'd probably be the best power marines have and I would think it and might of heroes would be your two go-to powers. In the context of the obscuration discipline though, I'd skip it in most situations.

Hallucinations/Mind Raid as a standard loadout, switching out Hallucinations for Curse if your opponent had one of the builds where that power presents a serious advantage, would be the way I would run this guy, and I would find him worth including in most marine TAC builds. If I get him for my deathwatch, I'm bringing him for sure.

 bullyboy wrote:
Yeah, having units move pretty far, especially in a game of objectives and the ability to shut down deep strike, is really useless

Oh damn, I missed the Phobos keyword on the Infiltrators, damn, that's nasty.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Ehhhh...Movemovemove is 'casted' with no risk by a 30 point HQ to shoot a 40 point infantry unit across the board.

M^3 also prevents that 40 point infantry unit from receiving any other 'casts' unless the 30pt HQ has a specific Relic--and it puts them out of range in all likelihood unless you paid points for a Vox.

Temporal Passageway or whatever is casted with a 30% chance of failure by a 90 point HQ to shoot a 100 point infantry unit across the board.

I think it's SOLIDLY less powerful. Conceivably useful? Yes. But I wouldn't consider it anywhere above an average power.

For now? Yeah. But given that people continually talk about how "powerful" it is for you to be able to "shoot across the board" with a unit...you get a spell that lets you do it and it's just "average".

Personally, I like these powers. I also like/dislike them being tied to Phobos stuff. Would have liked to see Scouts included as well but oh well.

I think this more speaks to how the distinction between a competitive unit and an uncompetitive unit is a whole lot smaller than the average player probably believes. There are a number of distinctions between this power and MMM that makes MMM superior.

1) Cost, as I mentioned. MUCH cheaper units use MMM. This is probably the big one. If I'm using MMM on just one unit it is PROBABLY a suicide maneuver to score me some points. I'll sacrifice a 40 point unit much more happily than a 100pt unit.

2) Don't have to give up one of your other powers to have the option to use MMM.

3) Castable on any <regiment> infantry unit rather than only on two specific units. I can't use this power on the current meta space marine troop units. Maybe infiltrators prove to be competitive compared to Scouts when we see their point costs. I don't know. But if they're not, having to swap them out to use the power is another point against it.

4) No failure chance. Especially given you have to commit to the move (probably advancing the unit towards the objective you want) before you get to see if it casts. Also, not denyable.

5) Can cast MMM more than once if you want. I can MMM the commander to catch up to the unit, or I can MMM multiple infantry squads to flood the board.

There doesn't need to be a huge distinction between things that "feel" the same to have one be competitive and the other average. I think there's plenty between this power and MMM.

my Assessment..

Don't shoot Phobos unit unless it is the closest is okay. Concievably might get super powered with a Phobo armored Heavy support choice that is Hellblaster like.

Reroll to hit is a good one. So is ignoring cover. Always usefull.

Temporal Corridor.. If Reivers are reconed to have the Phobo keyword, this would have them scoot an average of 19.5 inches and shoot another 24 blasting away with 20 shots. Toss on the reroll to hit, and its a problem for some forces. Otherwise, situational.

Hallucination. Its not bad.. I'm tempted to add this in and play with some Grey Knights and see if I can get some big Purge Souls off.

Tenebrous Curse. WHoa Doggie. Even better if you pop this and scoot away with Temporal Corridor.

Mind Raid. I love it. Any idea if this would count to your gain 1 CP a turn?

I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

No, they need to hire PROFESSIONALS. Experts. People who have years, possibly decades, of experience designing and balancing wargames.

To my knowledge, no one here fits those criteria, and as the biggest company on the block, they have no real excuse for not hiring the best of the best.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

The librarian costs 180 points? I thought the primaris librarian cost like...100 points.

Which would be just over half the cost of the loyal 32.

None of the debuffs are bad psychic powers. The buffs are only bad because they are limited in units to cast them on.

Reemule wrote:
my Assessment..

Don't shoot Phobos unit unless it is the closest is okay. Concievably might get super powered with a Phobo armored Heavy support choice that is Hellblaster like.

Reroll to hit is a good one. So is ignoring cover. Always usefull.

Temporal Corridor.. If Reivers are reconed to have the Phobo keyword, this would have them scoot an average of 19.5 inches and shoot another 24 blasting away with 20 shots. Toss on the reroll to hit, and its a problem for some forces. Otherwise, situational.

Hallucination. Its not bad.. I'm tempted to add this in and play with some Grey Knights and see if I can get some big Purge Souls off.

Tenebrous Curse. WHoa Doggie. Even better if you pop this and scoot away with Temporal Corridor.

Mind Raid. I love it. Any idea if this would count to your gain 1 CP a turn?

1. Phobos units are infiltrators - they will always be the closest unit to the enemy. 0/5
2. Reroll hits and ignore cover COULD be good. TOO BAD the only unit that can benifit is AP-0 bolt guns. 1/5
3. Reivers DONT have phobos keyword AND Reivers are even worse than Vangaurds. PLUS THEY CAN DEEP STRIKE ANYWAYS.
4. The horror but with conditions where it does nothing - 2/5
5. Phobos makes this useless 1/5
6. Decent - mortal wounds and CP for success - still pretty bad considering it has to be used on a character and only does 1 mortal wound max.

I swear. GW is friggen oblivious when it comes to power level of spells. They don't even understand the same power in different codex can't be conditional when one is not for no trade off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

The librarian costs 180 points? I thought the primaris librarian cost like...100 points.

Which would be just over half the cost of the loyal 32.

None of the debuffs are bad psychic powers. The buffs are only bad because they are limited in units to cast them on.

Wrong they are bad...Conditional horror for the same cost? Max 1 mortal wound spells? Moving bad units? This is easily the worst psychic discipline in the game.