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Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Not sure I just heard it being said he was cheating the entire tournament, I haven't found any details on it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Why wouldn't you be allowed to summon T1?

Loafing wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Why wouldn't you be allowed to summon T1?

Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

the summoning guy was 100% not cheating, let's not create false stories. There was a question about summoning on turn 1, the TO gave the decision in his favor (as is the 100% logic thing to do) and he played his games after that.

However this guy had daemon summoning which is completely different than CSM summoning. With infernal entrapturess (which is miles better than the MoP) having a nice shooting dual profile attack, offering great psychic disruption AND having a huge summoning bonus without having to resort to a mediocre venomcrawler for it. Also he used the nurgle tree, which offers better cover saves, free fall back and charge for all his army and rerolls on all summoning rolls.

I don't see how CSM can match that any time soon.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


However this guy had daemon summoning which is completely different than CSM summoning. With infernal entrapturess (which is miles better than the MoP) having a nice shooting dual profile attack, offering great psychic disruption AND having a huge summoning bonus without having to resort to a mediocre venomcrawler for it. Also he used the nurgle tree, which offers better cover saves, free fall back and charge for all his army and rerolls on all summoning rolls.

I don't see how CSM can match that any time soon.

Do we know what he summoned? As the IR can only summon Slaaneshi daemons. And his list had Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch Characters. So he had options to summon.

Infernal Rapturess: +3 when summoning SLAANESH Daemons only. She also has the same anti-psyker aura as MOP, but 24" vs 12"


As for the trees, they're a GREAT addition to a Nurgle Daemonkin player.

Gnarlmaws: reroll any dice when a CHAOS CHARACTER summons NURGLE daemons

A Master of Possession CAN benefit from the Gnarlmaws. And the Gnarlmaws help ALL NURGLE DAEMONS
(Your Nurgle Possessed / Warp Talon / Obliterators get +2 to Sv via Cover)
(All Nurgle Daemons (including Daemon Engines) can advance, shoot, and charge / fall back and shoot.

That's the point. Having 60pt characters who can summon anything from different gods and also having stuff to actually boos this ability is strategically valid, as you will be overwhelming your opponent by basically sideboarding 30% of your army.

Having to pay MoP points (I would guess close to 100+) to get a situational summon spell on a 7+ (45% to not even cast, before denies) is not the way to go about summoning.

I don't think the venomcrawler is the CSM Gnarlmaw.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

Sadly, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power are all that matters. This locks in the Slaaneshi Obliterators as the only real valid build now.

Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Delightful Agonies, Prescience, now your Obliterators have 4++/5+++ at T5, they hit on a 2+, give them Veterans and Endless Cacophony that's 36 shots. Gaze of Fate and Command re-roll to skew the weapon variability to your advantage. That's probably killing virtually anything it shoots at.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

I wouldn't rely on a 7+ cast spell to allow me to summon or not.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I wouldn't rely on a 7+ cast spell to allow me to summon or not.

Oh, I wouldn't run that crap, too much potential to screw up.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

Sadly, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power are all that matters. This locks in the Slaaneshi Obliterators as the only real valid build now.

Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Delightful Agonies, Prescience, now your Obliterators have 4++/5+++ at T5, they hit on a 2+, give them Veterans and Endless Cacophony that's 36 shots. Gaze of Fate and Command re-roll to skew the weapon variability to your advantage. That's probably killing virtually anything it shoots at.

Banner of Blood is a use before the battle. So unless FAQ'D, I don't think you can use it on summoned units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Its a confusion due to the previous tactical reserves beta compared to the current one. Some people argue that summoning is subject to that rule because those units don't start on the board. With the previous beta rulke it was played in tournaments as you could summon turn 1 but they had to come in the summoners deployment zone. Now thats been scrapped people assume that summoned units can only come in turn 2 and onwards. I don't think summoning is subject to tactical reserves but people were claiming it was.

It isn't, those people are wrong. It does have a number of other limitations that hamper it's usefulness, at least as far as using it with CSM. However, now you can run a Word Bearers detachment with a Daemons detachment, leave yourself ~450 points of reinforcements, move the summoner out, summon a 30 man squad of Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood during the psychic phase, use the double summoning strat and soul sacrifice, summon a 30 man squad of Pink Horrors with re-roll 1s to hit, use Warptime to position the summoner where you want.

It could work, it's totally gimmicky, don't screw up.

I wouldn't rely on a 7+ cast spell to allow me to summon or not.

But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

Loafing wrote:
But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

Oh yeah, Ahriman is casting Prescience, so it's a 6+, no big. Cursed Earth is nice to have, but not critical. Also, you'll have command re-roll during psychic phase to make sure things go off. Or Cabalistic Focus available, at least in the list I'm envisioning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loafing wrote:
Banner of Blood is a use before the battle. So unless FAQ'D, I don't think you can use it on summoned units.

You're correct. Yeah, as I said, I wouldn't use it, too gimmicky.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Loafing wrote:
But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

Oh yeah, Ahriman is casting Prescience, so it's a 6+, no big. Cursed Earth is nice to have, but not critical. Also, you'll have command re-roll during psychic phase to make sure things go off. Or Cabalistic Focus available, at least in the list I'm envisioning.

Why is Command Reroll available for Cursed Earth and not Incursion?
(Just seems a bit biased that when criticizing a 7+ power there is no assistance, but on favoured 7+, everything's in your favour.)

Also (please correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think Cabalistic Focus will assist with Cursed Earth as it is +2 for THOUSAND SONS only. And only the Master of Possession has access to Malefic. (And unless FAQ'd/stated in Shadowspear, THOUSAND SONS is not valid for <LEGION&gt

OH LAWDY

Loafing wrote:
Also (please correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think Cabalistic Focus will assist with Cursed Earth as it is +2 for THOUSAND SONS only. And only the Master of Possession has access to Malefic. (And unless FAQ'd/stated in Shadowspear, THOUSAND SONS is not valid for <LEGION&gt

Yes, but you'll have it for Prescience. Also, as Daed just pointed out Warp Lord, I'm less concerned about those checks.

But hey, run with summoning, perhaps you'll find an amazing angle for it all.

Personally, I've been trying to see a use for summoning outside of straight Daemons lists for awhile and really a squad of Pink Horrors is about as interesting as it gets.

Loafing wrote:


But a 7+ for Prescience and 7+ for Cursed Earth is Okay?

If I fail prescience, one of my units will shoot a little bit worse (and I can remedy that with a shaman or a character reroll ability somehow). If I fail cursed earth, my maulerfiend or enlightened will be a tad bit more squishy (and I can remedy that with weaver of fates if i need to). But if I fail to roll 7+ to summon, this means that 1. I also lost my change to movement phase summoning this turn, since I was counting on the psychic phase). 2. My unit worth 150 or even more points is not on the table. Cannot shoot at all, cannot fight at all, cannot protect my precious targets from charging at all. My whole strategy goes one turn behind. Oh and if this was the third battle turn, my unit is now dead forever.

If you need to summon stuff as opposed to just bringing a daemon detachment along, this means that you need that particular unit at that particular moment. You can't leave that on a coin flip.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
OH LAWDY

Where did that come from?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Where did that come from?

Preview on the WHC stie, that may just be auto-take.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Where did that come from?

Preview on the WHC stie, that may just be auto-take.

In a CSM list 100%. In a Thousand Sons list it would compete with High Magister and I don't know which one is best.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
In a CSM list 100%. In a Thousand Sons list it would compete with High Magister and I don't know which one is best.

I usually take Arrogance of Aeons and load any high difficulty powers on Ahriman. Cabalistic Focus usually takes care of the rest. CSM are the ones that need some help getting their powers off in my experience.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
In a CSM list 100%. In a Thousand Sons list it would compete with High Magister and I don't know which one is best.

I usually take Arrogance of Aeons and load any high difficulty powers on Ahriman. Cabalistic Focus usually takes care of the rest. CSM are the ones that need some help getting their powers off in my experience.

If I wasn't going for high Magister every time (I hate failing to cast spells and it gives me a second character with +1, plus familiar on the termie sorc and reroll on the shaman, or I put it on the termie sorc for +4 to cast the Death hex I want on demand), I would go for Aetherstride on a DP with diabolic strength.


On the other hand, if I bring a dedicated Daemon Engine list, being able to reroll 1's on my cursed earth has suddenly changed my mind about the usefulness of this spell if I am able to take the 56% success into the 70-something % range.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
On the other hand, if I bring a dedicated Daemon Engine list, being able to reroll 1's on my cursed earth has suddenly changed my mind about the usefulness of this spell if I am able to take the 56% success into the 70-something % range.

Usually I make Gaze of Fate the first power I cast, then you have that and command re-roll to get you through the rest of the phase if necessary.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
On the other hand, if I bring a dedicated Daemon Engine list, being able to reroll 1's on my cursed earth has suddenly changed my mind about the usefulness of this spell if I am able to take the 56% success into the 70-something % range.

Usually I make Gaze of Fate the first power I cast, then you have that and command re-roll to get you through the rest of the phase if necessary.

In my experience I am always frugal with my gaze of fate reroll. I keep it in case I perils, if I don't then I keep in in my shooting phase for the d6 battlecannon shots, if I don't then I keep it for if I fail a charge roll and finally I end up wasting it on something useless like a single melee attack on a tzaangor :(

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.

I think you might be confused with the ruling that allowed him to summon turn 1. It was granted by the TOs as I recall.

Ive heard tell he was also rolling 1 dice at a time for summons, then stopping once he hit the roll he wanted to avoid mortals/ killing characters. This is from several people who witnessed it.

Malefic trait #2 previewed as well, giving an extra deny and potential heal whilst causing enemy perils on any doubles would make the MOP quite a handy anti-psyker support.

I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

"I have cover!"

"I ignore cover!"

"I have an ability that says I can't lose the benefits of cover!"

"I have a rule that increases AP by 1 against people in cover!"

"I gain +2 to my save in cover!"

"I have a rule that ignores your rule!"

Yeah... Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

"I have cover!"

"I ignore cover!"

"I have an ability that says I can't lose the benefits of cover!"

"I have a rule that increases AP by 1 against people in cover!"

"I gain +2 to my save in cover!"

"I have a rule that ignores your rule!"

Yeah... Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

Not sure if playing 40k or Yugi-oh

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think a missed opportunity for Obstruction was making a unit gain cover and not be able to lose cover. We're beginning to see more abilities that ignore cover again

"I have cover!"

"I ignore cover!"

"I have an ability that says I can't lose the benefits of cover!"

"I have a rule that increases AP by 1 against people in cover!"

"I gain +2 to my save in cover!"

"I have a rule that ignores your rule!"

Yeah... Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

Not sure if playing 40k or Yugi-oh

Stratagems are just trap cards: change my mind

 fraser1191 wrote:
Stratagems are just trap cards: change my mind

Nah. Only SOME are.

Others are played proactively, like the Chapter Master Equip Card.

I hope the DG get access to these new powers +1 invuln save to plagueburst crawlers seems real good.