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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m cool with the chaos powers being awesome and powerful. However, let’s talk regular marines for a minute... isn’t it NICE seeing the salt of these players? Seeing them be so upset their chapters can’t stack up against us Xenos/chaos? I say if these powers are even somewhat OK, we need to find ways/loop holes/email GW to get those nerfing FAQS started! Who is with me?

Yes, those poor, downtrodden Eldar really deserve some love. Why, they weren't top tier back in 5th edition! I can understand how that must be a real trauma. Tau are also the true victims of the world. Why, the entire vehicle/MC split was removed to weaken their signature unit! So unfair!

Meanwhile, I've stopped playing my Black Templars because it's just not a challenge any more. I can get 40 S4 AP- attacks in melee for only 160 points, and with a 12" Fly move to boot! Or, I could just let the enemy's psykers cast their feeble spells and laugh as I cruelly use my mighty stratagem to deny one of the spells 50% of the time! What horror! It is too much.

I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

I haven't seen the Chaos powers (don't know if they're leaked yet) but the Obscuration looks fine to me. Looks fluffy, aimed at the units in the box. It's obviously not intended as a broad all-Marine based power set. It has useful, not overly potent powers. I've seen far worse powers in play in 40K.

I actually also like how limited they are. Gives me hope we'll see some more narrower psychic tables to add theme/elements to certain armies. Also, it's fairly obvious that some pre-emptive safeties are being taken by producing stuff like this. The narrower focus of the powers means you won't get unintended combinations which are running rampant throughout 8th right now (combining allied units, stratagems and spells to produce heinous actions on the tabletop, etc.).

The main beef I have is that the Psyker isn't fast (though he can deepstrike right?). I have found that psykers without bikes or jump packs are far less useful in this game unless they're sitting in a castle. Some of these spells will make the already broken Eliminators even more of a problem.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m cool with the chaos powers being awesome and powerful. However, let’s talk regular marines for a minute... isn’t it NICE seeing the salt of these players? Seeing them be so upset their chapters can’t stack up against us Xenos/chaos? I say if these powers are even somewhat OK, we need to find ways/loop holes/email GW to get those nerfing FAQS started! Who is with me?

Yes, those poor, downtrodden Eldar really deserve some love. Why, they weren't top tier back in 5th edition! I can understand how that must be a real trauma. Tau are also the true victims of the world. Why, the entire vehicle/MC split was removed to weaken their signature unit! So unfair!

Meanwhile, I've stopped playing my Black Templars because it's just not a challenge any more. I can get 40 S4 AP- attacks in melee for only 160 points, and with a 12" Fly move to boot! Or, I could just let the enemy's psykers cast their feeble spells and laugh as I cruelly use my mighty stratagem to deny one of the spells 50% of the time! What horror! It is too much.

I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

Bruh mistakes #1 is you play marines. To fix this, sell them all and go buy eldar. Instant fun in game. /notkidding /yoursarcasmwaspoor

I am liking Obscuration. I am going to be running a Battalion of Phobos units, so powers 1-3 will have use. Especially on my Eliminators when Chapter Tactics trigger. I really like the offensive powers. Mind Raid helps deal with my CP problem (no CP recovery for Crimson Fists). All in all, I am running thar Phobos Librarian for sure, even if I wasn't running Phobos units (which I am).

Chaos powers have been leaked. I'm.mobile so can't grab the image but I wrote a summary. The number in parentheses is the casting value based on what it looked like in the image.
---------------

INCURSION (7)
Attempt to summon a unit of <DAEMONS> using Daemonic Ritual as if it was the Movement Phase. Roll up to 4 dice instead of 3. Never suffer mortal wounds from the roll

SACRIFICE (4)
Pick model within 2", that model takes a mortal wound. Choose a friendly <LEGION> DAEMON model within 18", it regains D3 lost wounds. If it's a DAEMON ENGINE and the model you inflicted the mortal wound on was a friendly <LEGION> WARPSMITH, the Daemon Engine regains 3 wounds

MUTATED INVIGORATION (7)
Select one friendly CHAOS SPAWN, <LEGION> POSSESSED or <LEGION> CULT OF DESTRUCTION within 18" Until start of next Psychic phase:

* Chaos Spawn re-roll dice for Mutated Beyond Reason
* Re-roll when determining Attacks for Possessed
* RE-roll one of the dice for Strength, AP or Damage for Obliterators

POSSESSION (5)
Psyker's melee weapon AP is improved by 2 (e.g. AP -1 becomes -3). Each time he destroys an enemy INFANTRY CHARACTER add a Chaos Spawn. If model destroyed was ADEPTUS ASTARTES or HERETIC ASTARTES, add a Greater Possessed. Model has to be within 6" of psyker and more than 1" from enemy models. Each time he destroys a VEHICLE, it automatically explodes, and the psyker ignores any mortal wounds the explosion may cause.

CURSED EARTH (7)
Invulnerable saves of <LEGION> DAEMON units within 6" of psyker are improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3++)

INFERNAL POWER (6)
Re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by friendly <LEGION> DAEMON units within 6" of psyker
```

sounds about what I expected. it'as a summoning and deamon buffing disiple. proably not that great for matched play but potentially fun in a scenerio.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m cool with the chaos powers being awesome and powerful. However, let’s talk regular marines for a minute... isn’t it NICE seeing the salt of these players? Seeing them be so upset their chapters can’t stack up against us Xenos/chaos? I say if these powers are even somewhat OK, we need to find ways/loop holes/email GW to get those nerfing FAQS started! Who is with me?

Yes, those poor, downtrodden Eldar really deserve some love. Why, they weren't top tier back in 5th edition! I can understand how that must be a real trauma. Tau are also the true victims of the world. Why, the entire vehicle/MC split was removed to weaken their signature unit! So unfair!

Meanwhile, I've stopped playing my Black Templars because it's just not a challenge any more. I can get 40 S4 AP- attacks in melee for only 160 points, and with a 12" Fly move to boot! Or, I could just let the enemy's psykers cast their feeble spells and laugh as I cruelly use my mighty stratagem to deny one of the spells 50% of the time! What horror! It is too much.

I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

Don't feed the troll.

Thanks Wayniac! These look much more appealing than I expected, especially for running daemon engines. Too bad the MoP isn't fast. I literally lol'd at the part about hurting warpsmiths.

Does it cost reinforcement points to summon spawns from the power that increases weapon ap?

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Thanks Wayniac! These look much more appealing than I expected, especially for running daemon engines. Too bad the MoP isn't fast. I literally lol'd at the part about hurting warpsmiths.

Does it cost reinforcement points to summon spawns from the power that increases weapon ap?

Unless it specifically says it doesn't, it does.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds about what I expected. it'as a summoning and deamon buffing disiple. proably not that great for matched play but potentially fun in a scenerio.

Oh it's quite spicy for daemon engine lovers. Sucks for Thousand Sons though.

A bubble of +1 invuln and reroll 1s to hit and wound on engines is pretty nice. Now how does one keep him from being sniped...

A squad of Obliterators with buffed guns and invuln, shooting twice seems worthy of matched play to me. The ability to summon in the psychic phase is very interesting also.

 Slowroll wrote:
A squad of Obliterators with buffed guns and invuln, shooting twice seems worthy of matched play to me. The ability to summon in the psychic phase is very interesting also.

That might be a stretch to invest so much for that. I'd drop the invuln for reroll 1s on hits and wounds. If they're in cover that invuln won't be touched most of the time anyway.

BrianDavion wrote:
sounds about what I expected. it'as a summoning and deamon buffing disiple. proably not that great for matched play but potentially fun in a scenerio.

Summoning power sounds great, until you realise you'll realistically only have a use to cast it maybe once or twice in the entire game? (Assuming matched play where you have to set aside points)

powers 5 and 6 I see becoming the "default" set for MOP. Parking him around a bunch of maulerfiends/forgefiends would actually make them quite decent combined with the points drop they got in CA

 Slowroll wrote:
A squad of Obliterators with buffed guns and invuln, shooting twice seems worthy of matched play to me. The ability to summon in the psychic phase is very interesting also.

Summoning in the Psychic Phase removes one of the biggest issues that Daemonic Ritual had: Characters had to give up their Movement Phase.

Not only can he Move+Advance, (have a Sorcerer cast Warp Time to move again) he can also summon without fear of hurting himself.

Only "complaint" is the power feels out of place. 4/6 buff <LEGION> DAEMONS and then you have a second summon and Possession, which is a great buff, except the only target is a mediocre fighter (WS3+, 3A)

I looked at my Chaos Daemon stratagems and found something useful:
DAEMONIC PACT (1CP) when a Character summons. Immediately perform a second Daemonic Ritual.

If the Incursion power is used and summons a unit. Can you DAEMONIC PACT to summon a second unit w/ 4 dice and ignoring the wounding penalty for doubles/triples?

I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

 McGibs wrote:
I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

You can make an argument that the auto exploding vehicles is nice, but that's often too specific a situation you would want it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

You can make an argument that the auto exploding vehicles is nice, but that's often too specific a situation you would want it.

Currently only the Master of Possession can take Possession, which the MoP is (w/ Possession) 3A WS3+ S6 AP-3 Dd3. On a M6" unit.

Short of giving the MoP a Sorcerer babysitter for Prescience and Diabolic Strength. The odds of the extra buffs of Possession coming into play are slim.

Loafing wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I think possession is the only real dud. All the other spells seem quite useful, and I'll probobly include a MoP in my lists for daemon engine support.

I'm really looking forward to new warlord traits, relics, and strats in this same vein. CSM desperatly need some buff warlord traits, they codex ones are basically all garbage.

You can make an argument that the auto exploding vehicles is nice, but that's often too specific a situation you would want it.

Currently only the Master of Possession can take Possession, which the MoP is (w/ Possession) 3A WS3+ S6 AP-3 Dd3. On a M6" unit.

Short of giving the MoP a Sorcerer babysitter for Prescience and Diabolic Strength. The odds of the extra buffs of Possession coming into play are slim.

I thought he was four attacks.

Wow that IS a bad power.

Not a combat power house but making him -5 AP would be quite a psychological deterrent especially if other support/lesser characters are hanging around. Would be curious to see if it's FAQed to require reinforcement points for Spawn/Greater Possessed.

My guess is a MoP running Cursed Earth and Infernal Power surrounded by 3x3 oblits will be the new Chaos meta (and then cultist spam for troops.)

I like mutated inviguration, it takes away from the downside Spawn and Possessed suffer from. Warp charge 7 is a little high though I'd say.
I think a Greater Possessed, a sorcerer, a master of Possessed and about 20 Possesed would make for a nice party.

the_scotsman wrote:
...Tenebrous curse has no requirement to interact with phobos, dude, it is a debuff. It is WC6 Doombolt, wtf do you want?

Hey whatsup you know those 30 ork boys you were going to da jump at me well they are now physically incapable of reaching me with a charge.

Out of curiosity how were you planning to get your 18" need LOS psyker within 18" of orks that are hiding behind LOS blocking terrain? Because that's where any da jumping units will be waiting rather than in open to be shot at will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
If I learned any lesson from getting freaked out by power levels during the ork buggy release, it's "don't pretend GW actually has a rule they follow for points to PL".

Even at 120 points I like this guy for Hallucinate/mind raid swapping out hallucinate for tenebrous when the opposing army has something in it that tenebrous feths over.

Umm...Ork buggies. Cost/PL:

boomdakka 100/5
Kustom boosta blasta 100/5
megatrak 110/5
rukkatrukk 140/7
shokkjump 120/6

points/20 is pretty well followed. Only megatrak is oddity where it rounds down rather than up. They do have rule that actually is pretty much spot on...

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't think it was possible to make a psychic rule set worse than the GK santic and Librarius. GW has in fact made it so.

Phobos restrictions make this a complete bust unit choice. The best power in the set might be able to give you a command point every turn but the unit costs nearly as much as a loyal 32. GW rules team needs to hire me. They suck so bad at their jobs.

They'd only need to read this post and KNOW this is not a person who you'd want to work on your game, because he clearly has so much respect for his potential co workers Please show GW some respect in their line of work, not everything ever has, or ever will be top tier options. The powers work great in the box set and the campaign setting.

Also I quite like the MoP's powers to choose from, +1 invul is tasty! I've always been a big lover of Daemons (Hell I collect Chaos Daemons, I left CSM at start of 8th but looks like Im damn well coming back now Abbadon! Im coming home!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'll be back in a bit with more horror stories once I've dug myself out of this sarchasm I just fell into.

Can we all just take a moment to exalt this please? Brilliant. I will be taking sarchasm all day. Well played Walrus.

Summoning power can be a huge double edged sword:

Scenario: I need to bring down my pink horrors. I can 1. not move and bring them down, 2. Play greedy, move + advance, maybe even warptime and then go for summoning them in the front. Then I miss my 7+ to cast and I am completely screwed for the round. Or it gets denied. I think the venomcrawler should be giving the MoP a +1 to cast instead of +1 to the summoning roll.

Overall I think it's highly situational and will not really push summoning as a real strategy for CSM. Daemons still can do it way more efficiently and safe.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I like mutated inviguration, it takes away from the downside Spawn and Possessed suffer from. Warp charge 7 is a little high though I'd say.
I think a Greater Possessed, a sorcerer, a master of Possessed and about 20 Possesed would make for a nice party.

You can then take a similarly aligned Herald for extra buffs. (+1S again)

(If it's in a Daemon detachment you also get a Loci aura)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Not a combat power house but making him -5 AP would be quite a psychological deterrent especially if other support/lesser characters are hanging around. Would be curious to see if it's FAQed to require reinforcement points for Spawn/Greater Possessed.

The MoP has a Force Stave. So only AP-1 base, becoming AP-3 with Possession.

No FAQ is required. The Reinforcement rules state that if you're creating a new unit, you pay reinforcement points unless stated otherwise.

Possession doesn't state that reinforcement points are ignored. So you have to pay for Spawns and Possessed

Apparently, there was a line I missed in Possession that also makes the caster immune to mortal wounds from the explosion when vehicles explode (I will update the original post to reflect this).

Personally, I still don't see summoning as being that viable for Matched Play since you have to "play down" due to it requiring points, but it seems to at least be opened up as an option that might have some tactical application. Sacrifice, Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power all seem to be pretty good. Possession seems like it's a niche ability in Matched Play but not bad, and Incursion I think is the only bad power simply as a result of summoning being so rare in Matched Play, and even that becomes useful if you want to try and summon something reliably.

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently, there was a line I missed in Possession that also makes the caster immune to mortal wounds from the explosion when vehicles explode (I will update the original post to reflect this).

Personally, I still don't see summoning as being that viable for Matched Play since you have to "play down" due to it requiring points, but it seems to at least be opened up as an option that might have some tactical application. Sacrifice, Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power all seem to be pretty good. Possession seems like it's a niche ability in Matched Play but not bad, and Incursion I think is the only bad power simply as a result of summoning being so rare in Matched Play, and even that becomes useful if you want to try and summon something reliably.

Well this fixes most of issues. Playing down on points isn't THAT uncommon. Orks play so for turn or two with tellyportas as well. Or sitting around in safe corner ready for da jump to send them somewhere.

It's basically customisable deep striking but with casting rather than CP.

Wayniac wrote:


Personally, I still don't see summoning as being that viable for Matched Play since you have to "play down" due to it requiring points, but it seems to at least be opened up as an option that might have some tactical application. Sacrifice, Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth and Infernal Power all seem to be pretty good. Possession seems like it's a niche ability in Matched Play but not bad, and Incursion I think is the only bad power simply as a result of summoning being so rare in Matched Play, and even that becomes useful if you want to try and summon something reliably.

There was a Chaos list in the top 8? of LVO that was summoning based (~615pts in Reinforcements)

[This doesn't mean Summoning is in a perfect place. But just brought it up as it seems most people think Daemonic Ritual is unplayable]

I like and dislike Incursion. Incursion really helps avoid some of summonings weaknesses (giving up movement, avg of 3d6 is 10.5, potentially hurt yourself), but it's a bandage fix, only the MoP has "good" summoning.

The ability to summon after moving means the MoP can move+advance (losing pistol shot) and then summon 12" away. That gives you 18+D6" move on your summoned unit. And now the MoP has units to hide behind.

With 4 dice you can usually get over 12, which is 30 lesser daemons. Yes you can Denizens in the Warp. But for 30, that's 2CP you saved.

I heard that guy with daemons at LVO was cheating though (haven't been able to corroborate) and one list with it doing well doesn't mean it's good.

However, it seems interesting and more of a choice now.