I've been reading about and talking to people about the unit datasheets and powers leaked in Shadowspear, and people seem to be saying that the Chaos side is weak and or heavily nerfed while the Loyal side is very strong, which I find odd, because I came to the opposite conclusion. We haven't seen the points, but are just estimating based off the PL using the 20pts == 1PL generalization. I'm curious as to what informs these assertions?
Starting with the loyal half; I don't think I'm nearly impressed by the Infiltrators as other people seem to be. With a PL of 5, I'm expecting a near-100 point cost for the troop, Considering that Scouts are half as much for the same deployment, I fail to see why I would take these new guys over 2 units of scouts. Scouts would fill my battalion better and have more guns, while these guys are slightly more resilient from armor [but the same number of overall wounds as 2 scout squads]. Or even just take these guys period over a single unit of scouts, since scouts fill the battalion way better, and I don't generally try to fill lists with Marine troops anyway.
Then there's the Suppressors, which have been the talk of the town with their AP-2 Autocannons. They're also looking at being on the order of 100 points, which isn't super encouraging for 3 autocannons. I'm also not entirely certain why I would want my heavy weapons bearers to fly with jump packs, since they don't have a rule to ignore the move-fire penalty and they have the range to hit almost whatever they want. Falling back and shooting as UM effectively gets the same result as the jump packs. It seems unnecessary for the unit to do it's job, and therefore and added expense on the unit. Also, with the Autocannons and the suppression rule, this unit seems confused. The Autocannons are light AT, good for knocking out things light vehicles, while the suppression rule only works on infantry. Like, heavy bolters or assault cannons would be preferable to the Autocannons when leveraging the suppression quality, though the suppressive effect is rather weak and can be ignored to use them as light vehicle harassers.
The only unit I really like in the set are the Eliminators. I expect them to be cheap, since they're PL3. Unlike most snipers, they might actually kill a character [though it will take them more than one turn]. They don't seem amazing [especially when Vindicares are 85 points], but they do seem at least not terrible. They're cheap and inconvenient to the enemy, and reasonably difficult to shift for their cost.
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless, and I'm not sure if I'd want to spend a bunch of points to buff my snipers who I only really like for their cheapness. Like, the librarian and tree are both disappointing.
The Captain wastes most of his statblock and fancy deployment regime by only having a pointy stick to hit people with, same for the lieutenant. Also, why not just take a Jetpack Captain or Lieutenant, then the buff would be that much more mobile?
On the flip side, Chaos looks like it got some nice things.
The Venomcrawler looks fairly decent. It's got a more reliable battlecannon, that it can fire on the move. While I don't normally sing praises of the Battle Cannon, it's a start, and the fact that it can fire on the move [or at least save CP] is a step up over the likely-close-in-cost Defiler. It's more fragile than the Defiler, though. It's also fairly decent in melee, by all appearances. While I don't generally appreciate heavy melee in general, much less on gun tanks, he can be a pretty serious and inexpensive forward-moving threat. He also has pretty good availability of buff support.
The Obliterators look like they got a buff too, at least. While the increase in shots, toughness and wounds seems to have been countered by a greater increase in cost, the buff efficiency goes up rather drastically from the 50% increase in capabilities. Endless Cacophony and Delightful Agonies will go much farther on them now, since it's effectively like buffing a squad-and-a-half of current Obliterators. In addition, they also got more spell support, that can save CP or make the CP you are spending go farther. Multiple squads of unbuffed obliterators are probably out, but one full squad fully supported seems like it'll be better than two old ones. In addition, as an additional use case, they can be run as a single model now, to just have one Obliterator on the board. He's be cheap enough not care about his ensuing death, and tough enough that he'll take at least some antitank guns to knock out, drawing fire from other valuable targets.
Chaos Space Marines are CSM, there's not a whole lot exciting about them.
The greater possessed have a interesting, but limited buff. It seems mostly intended to make the Venomcrawler's guns Lascannons instead of a Battle Cannon. They don't seem great, though.
Then there's the Master of Possession. People have been saying bad things about him, but if the poster in the thread on psychic powers is right, it looks like his discipline is pretty decent. Supposedly, he's got spells that will buff Daemon Engine invul saves, as well as a Daemonforge-lite spell, which will either save CP or let you have another dinosaur operational effectively [or use it on Obliterators]. The idea of a 4++ Defiler [or the Venomcrawler] sounds at least somewhat concerning. He can also supposedly help out obliterators on re-rolling their output dice. He's slow, but doesn't seem bad if he has dinosaurs to buff. At the very least, he seems better than the Vanguard Libby, since the Libby basically only usefully buffs Eliminators, while this guy buffs dinosaurs, and there are more Daemon Engines available to buff, and they're more valuable and capable units than the Eliminators.
Anyway, though are my thoughts as of now, I'm curious as to what other people think, and why it seems that most people I talk too have the opposite opinion.
I get the impression from this that GW's going to keep taking all the screwups out of the Stormcast and porting them straight over into the Space Marines. Sub-Codexes that don't interact with each other, releasing new slightly different-looking units rather than patching existing units, "options" that are entirely cosmetic and have little to no impact on what you do with the unit...
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
Anyway...
As someone who plays both SM (Salamanders) and CSM (World Eaters), and who's gonna get a Shadowspear box to beef up both my armies, I'm in the "SM got the better deal"-camp.
- Captain and Lieutenant are both pretty meh, as they both forgot to bring decent weaponry to the table.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
As for Chaos:
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
- CSM are CSM. Moving on.
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
Anyway...
As someone who plays both SM (Salamanders) and CSM (World Eaters), and who's gonna get a Shadowspear box to beef up both my armies, I'm in the "SM got the better deal"-camp.
- Captain and Lieutenant are both pretty meh, as they both forgot to bring decent weaponry to the table.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
As for Chaos:
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
- CSM are CSM. Moving on.
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
I feel the same way, primaris go it a little bit better but both sides are not great.
I'm buying it for my Salamanders as well, altho I dont have a chaos force yet, might make me some IIIrd legion debauchery.
Since we dont know points for certain, dont know the stratagems these units will get, and dont know if there will be any other gimmicks to them like relics and warlord traits...
Every opinion is just speculation. You'll have every warhammer player and their mums coming out of the woodwork to rate all of these things as soon as the full rules are out. wait for that.
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
I feel like Space Wolves and Dark Angels both have better versions of Hallucination; in the case of the DA they have 2 better versions. Tempest's Wrath and Aversion don't require a roll off [which, notably, succeeds less than half the time against most units bigger than Guardsmen], and Mind Wipe requires a roll off [with similar odds], but is permanent if it sticks. Technically, you can hit a fourth unit using this power, but at some point, does it matter? ADEPTUS ASTARTES is a valid keyword to make a detachment around, you just lose your CT; bring a jetpack rune priest and a jetpack librarian in a battalion with 3 scout squads, and you've got enough superior -1 powers to go around.
Tenebrous Curse is interesting, but situational.
Mind Raid is also interesting, but I think it might be a trap. 1MW isn't really worthwhile, and then the question is: is a librarian and his power slot more or less valuable than a warlord trait/relic slot? I can't say without considering a lot of factors. I'd say this with a strict maybe, since 180 points of Guard will also bring with them 5 more starting CP's, plus a pile of warm bodies for objective grabbing and interference. Also, I like my Company Commander using her tactical genius to lead the forces of the Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, or Adeptus Custodes .
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
Here's the thing, 5 scouts cost 55 points, at 5PL for 5, these guys are looking to cost between 90 and 110. They'll have to be way cheaper than points-PL suggest in order to compete with Scouts. Their bolters aren't even the souped-up bolt rifles, they're basically just botler-bolters [notably, it's not a mortal wound on a 6, just an automatic wound. It's doesn't seem like anything to write home about].
So they've got the same wound count, but have half the firepower of a scout squad for +1 armor. More importantly, they'll drive up the base cost of a battalion, which is already high, even higher.
That's why I'm not sure what people see in these guys.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
They're not really full tank hunters; they're at best an inconvenience to Imperial Knights or Leman Russes. They're pretty good against light vehicles and carriers. However, I could buy a dreadnought with 8 autocannon shots for ~20 points more, and it's a tank [or for an even less flattering comparison, a Hydra FlaK Tank for 93 points]. Is the +1AP and ~-20 points worth 2 shots, 2 wounds and being T4 vs. T7?
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
Yeah, at PL3, they should be nice and cheap. And tagging a guy for ~60 points doesn't sound too bad. It's probably not the best 60 points ever spent, but at you're not proverbially throwing good points after bad. That said, investing enough to actually put down characters every round is probably a waste of points, especially since a Vindicare can do that for marginally more, now without costing a detachment.
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
It's probably better than a Defiler, which has a straight Battle Cannon at the same price range. The summoning aspect is irrelevant, but it is fast, inexpensive, and reasonably dangerous at both range and melee.
It doesn't look like a big winner, but it looks better than the Suppressors and probably better than the Eliminators. It has no confusion about it's role in life, isn't too expensive, and will do it's job.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
I made some nice charts for this:
The ordinate is computed with a formula that isn't particularly complex, but is too annoying to type out without using LaTeX or something. It's basically a series of weighted averages [notably, inside the toughness factor, the formula to considers toughness slightly more important than wounds [since more toughness draws higher quality and lower fire rate firepower, in turn improving defense value] and considers resistance to Bolters and Battle Cannons most important, followed by Lasguns, Autocannons, and Lascannons, followed by Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, and arbitrarily large guns].
These charts consider the effects of Endless Cacophony, but not of Prescience, Delightful Agonies or any new supporting powers.
It's not particularly mathematically rigorous, but it gets the point across. I can play with the weighting, and for more arrangements it shows that New Obliterators are more efficient at 1 or 3, at almost all weightings of cost. If you increase the importance of cost, the high end drops to being bad, but 3 Oblitz becomes a very magical number.
As a side note, playing with the weights is a pretty good demonstration of "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics". If the only weapon that matters is the Hammer of Sundrance it looks like an insane buff, but it looks pretty nerf for all combinations other than 3 oblitz if you decide that shooting power is irrelevant. However, it still gets the point across, and, for almost all weight combinations, 3 Oblitz is a net efficiency buff. [The only way to make it look otherwise is to de-weight everything but wound count]
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
That's at least what I think about these things, but your opinion is noted and interesting. We'll have to see what the final points come up with, because it could be different if everything turns out to be PL*20-9 points.
I feel like Space Wolves and Dark Angels both have better versions of Hallucination; in the case of the DA they have 2 better versions.
I don't see how this is relevant. I don't play Space Wolves or Dark Angels. I play SM (Salamanders).
Might as well say that Obscuration is bad because Eldar and CSM got better powers.
Mind Raid is also interesting, but I think it might be a trap. 1MW isn't really worthwhile, and then the question is: is a librarian and his power slot more or less valuable than a warlord trait/relic slot? I can't say without considering a lot of factors. I'd say this with a strict maybe, since 180 points of Guard will also bring with them 5 more starting CP's, plus a pile of warm bodies for objective grabbing and interference. Also, I like my Company Commander using her tactical genius to lead the forces of the Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, or Adeptus Custodes
OK, I should really stop here because it's clear to me now that we play in vastly different metas and have different opinions on how to play this game.
You seem to (forgive me if I'm wrong) play in a WAAC-meta where soup is the norm. If that's the case, then I can see why you consider most of the new Primaris-stuff as "meh", because nothing is close to being overpowered.
I play in a pretty friendly meta where souping is frowned upon and WAAC-players will quickly find themselves running out of willing opponents.
In my meta, Mind Raid is pretty decent power because of the CP-regen. The mortal wound is just a bonus. My Salamanders had no ways to regenerate CP, until now.
Here's the thing, 10 scouts cost 55 points, at 5PL for 5, these guys are looking to cost between 90 and 110. They'll have to be way cheaper than points-PL suggest in order to compete with Scouts. Their bolters aren't even the souped-up bolt rifles, they're basically just botler-bolters [notably, it's not a mortal wound on a 6, just an automatic wound. It's doesn't seem like anything to write home about].
So they've got the same wound count, but have half the firepower of a scout squad for +1 armor. More importantly, they'll drive up the base cost of a battalion, which is already high, even higher.
10 scouts is not 55 points, but I assume that's just a typo.
I'm aware that it's not a mortal wound on 6's, but as a long-time WFB-player, where poisoned attacks (pre AoS) worked like the Infiltrators new bolters, I've seen what a rule like that can do, especially against high T-targets with mediocre save. Is it amazing? No, but it's flavourful and I like it.
I guess we'll have to see what the pts-cost ends up being.
Right now Infiltrators seem like infiltrating Intercessors with a different weapon and some utility in Omniscramblers and Smokegrenade.
Not overpowered, but not even close to being bad.
They're not really full tank hunters; they're at best an inconvenience to Imperial Knights or Leman Russes. They're pretty good against light vehicles and carriers. However, I could buy a dreadnought with 8 autocannon shots for ~20 points more, and it's a tank [or for an even less flattering comparison, a Hydra FlaK Tank for 93 points]. Is the +1AP and ~-20 points worth 2 shots, 2 wounds and being T4 vs. T7?
Yeah they really shouldn't go after T8. Luckily for them there's a massive plethora of T7 vehicles and monsters out there though.
The comparison to a rifle-dread is interesting, and both have their pro's and con's.
The Suppressors can easily get a 2+ save by staying in cover and, unlike the dread, they can quickly move out of harms way if needed due to higher movement and fly.
Neither unit is so good or bad that it makes the other a no-brainer/useless.
Not gonna compare to the Hydra since IG are not SM.
It's probably better than a Defiler, which has a straight Battle Cannon at the same price range. The summoning aspect is irrelevant, but it is fast, inexpensive, and reasonably dangerous at both range and melee.
It doesn't look like a big winner, but it looks better than the Suppressors and probably better than the Eliminators. It has no confusion about it's role in life, isn't too expensive, and will do it's job.
Funny that you say that it has no confusions about it's role when it's a fast walker that wants to shoot and be in combat at the same time.
I'd say that compared to Forgefiends and Maulerfiends, the Venomcrawler is very confused.
We'll see what the pointcost will be soon enough. For 150 pts I'll consider it overpriced. For 130-140 its "OK".
In regards to Oblits, math is one thing, and math never lies.
However, math also will never know when you roll that gakky combination of dice that will make you end up with S7 AP1 D1 in a turn where you need them to take out something big and nasty.
At the end of they day, I (still) consider Oblits too expensive and random.
Anyway, currently I'm really looking forward to play around with the Librarian, Infiltrators and Eliminators (and to some extent, Suppressors) in my Salamanders, but I'm feeling quite indifferent about playing with the Venomcrawler and Obliterators in my World Eaters. Adding a Greater Possessed and a MoP looks like fun though.
Gotta be honest for the near parity in points the defiler is better all round, it doesn't just have a battle cannon.
If you compare the 2 guns on the crawler to a battle cannon, reaper autocannon and havoc launcher on a platform of similar speed, toughness and melee capacity, the defiler is better all-rounder. Which isn't saying much tbh!
Defiler for 136 pts with above load out is 2" slower, 2 extra strength, 2 less attacks, 4 more wounds. Ofc you can swap the havoc launcher for the scourge to balance the attacks out and give it a more melee focused approach, then swap the auto cannon for a flamer to make it a fast assault platform. if anything the crawler is more confused than the defiler is, due to lack of options.
For Chaos the Venomcrawler seems meh at worst to okay at best. Sure it has an alright gun but BS 4+. It competes with a Maulerfiend for melee, and while you can buff it the Maulerfiend seems to be a better option compared to it, same with the Defiler. If it's really 140 points I think it'll be garbage at that price point. Now if/when the 2x Baleflamer version comes out (shown in artwork) that I think will be great but the one with the two cannons seems pretty bad. Nothing it does seems to not be outclassed by something else.
Obliterators look good but it depends on their cost; it's looking like 2 will cost the same as 3 used to which seems like a nerf but the buffs might work overall.
MoP and Malefic powers seem good, except the power that helps you summon because lol summoning. Cursed Earth and Infernal Power seem really great though.
CSM are CSM, if they don't get a points decrease they'll still be trash.
Dudeface wrote: Gotta be honest for the near parity in points the defiler is better all round, it doesn't just have a battle cannon.
If you compare the 2 guns on the crawler to a battle cannon, reaper autocannon and havoc launcher on a platform of similar speed, toughness and melee capacity, the defiler is better all-rounder. Which isn't saying much tbh!
Defiler for 136 pts with above load out is 2" slower, 2 extra strength, 2 less attacks, 4 more wounds. Ofc you can swap the havoc launcher for the scourge to balance the attacks out and give it a more melee focused approach, then swap the auto cannon for a flamer to make it a fast assault platform. if anything the crawler is more confused than the defiler is, due to lack of options.
I can see that.
The defiler can't move and fire well, though, but if you're using it as a static battery it's definitely a preferred option. I figured the mobility might lend the venomcrawler an edge, since it's claws wouldn't be so useless [or the firepower might lend it an edge over the maulerfiend].
I'm just guessing at the points based on the PL. Points estimation could range from like -10 to +9 [or theoretically more, but since they have fixed options, I'd bet that they're pretty close]
I definitely don't think the Oblitz got a nerf. They're more flexible, and virtually however I weight things it winds up with 3 New Obliterators being a better call than 6 Old Obliterators. If you slide up to 130 points per Oblit, it drops to parity. If you slide down to 110 points per Oblit, it looks like a really big buff across the board. There's also the additional use case now of a single obliterator dropping in to draw some fire, since he's destructive enough alone to warrant killing, and tough enough to require an AT gun to do it.
The infiltrators will work well in my SW army (which doesn't have "scout" troops) as a way to claim more ground.
If DW get access to the new troops the snipers in a heavy slot will give me a really cheap relic tax that at least has a defined role and isn't terrible for its points.
The captain and LT can feth off until they get some more equipment options (the captain with a power fist would be fun).
The librarian has some decent synergies with the other "good" SM powers. Reducing a units movement by half and then hitting it with jaws of the wolf is nice. Reducing a models leadership and then mind wiping it is interesting. I think he has a spot in the three wise men supreme libby detachment (or bat if you want to throw in some scouts).
At 35 points a pop the auto-cannon dudes are better than hellblasters IMHO. 2 shots at full range, no worry about over charging in exchange for a point of strength and a bit of AP (that usually gets wasted as most anything worth shooting has a 4/5++) seems like a win. I think this speaks to how bad hellblasters are vs how great the auto-cannon dudes are (hellblasters only perform w/in 15", suck against invulns and negative to hit mods and so much bad stuff happens w/in 18" of an enemy at least the auto-cannons can stay at long range).
Nothing that's on the GSC level of good new units unless they get some crazy strats, weird detachment rules or surprisingly low point costs.
A Vanguard Captain with the new Targeting Priority Warlord Trait next to a unit of Hblasters gives you a unit that hits on a 2+, and can't Fry themselves without some other mechanic at play.
In regards to Oblits, math is one thing, and math never lies.
However, math also will never know when you roll that gakky combination of dice that will make you end up with S7 AP1 D1 in a turn where you need them to take out something big and nasty.
At the end of they day, I (still) consider Oblits too expensive and random.
DICE TIME!
Modified my program to handle Oblits stat setting dynamic. CP rerolls (when applicable) only occurred when the S roll was a 1. If the reroll was not used for S then it was used for the Damage roll and only if it was a 1.
I think the problem with Obliterators is the psychological of not getting the result you need and you can see that play out in the graph below.
The way you want to interpret this is the less to the left of the graph is better. Higher results on towards the right means more damage.
Against a stock knight 3 NuBlits fail to do damage about 10% of the time, predators about 8%, and 3 NuBlits w/ Cacophony in any config fail about 1% of the time. And while the NuBlits sans cacophony are strictly worse by a small margin the odds for 28+ damage with full load is around 5%.
It's quite clear that Obliterators offer a platform that offers a large economy of scale for buffs. If you were to add prescience and reroll 1s to hit and wound you'd see a pretty severe damage output.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Gotta be honest for the near parity in points the defiler is better all round, it doesn't just have a battle cannon.
If you compare the 2 guns on the crawler to a battle cannon, reaper autocannon and havoc launcher on a platform of similar speed, toughness and melee capacity, the defiler is better all-rounder. Which isn't saying much tbh!
Defiler for 136 pts with above load out is 2" slower, 2 extra strength, 2 less attacks, 4 more wounds. Ofc you can swap the havoc launcher for the scourge to balance the attacks out and give it a more melee focused approach, then swap the auto cannon for a flamer to make it a fast assault platform. if anything the crawler is more confused than the defiler is, due to lack of options.
That's the thing with the defiler - it's slower and get penalty to move and shoot. Havoc Launcher is nice, but nothing to write home about.
So, either the Defiler sits still and gets 1.8 hits or it moves and gets 1.2. The VC moves faster and gets 2 hits. Kicking in a greater possessed puts the gun at the S9 sweet spot. It also heals faster than the defiler if it gets to combat.
The real devil will be in the actual points. The defiler still has a spot, but it's more CP hungry than these guys are.
In regards to Oblits, math is one thing, and math never lies.
However, math also will never know when you roll that gakky combination of dice that will make you end up with S7 AP1 D1 in a turn where you need them to take out something big and nasty.
At the end of they day, I (still) consider Oblits too expensive and random.
DICE TIME!
Modified my program to handle Oblits stat setting dynamic. CP rerolls (when applicable) only occurred when the S roll was a 1. If the reroll was not used for S then it was used for the Damage roll and only if it was a 1.
I think the problem with Obliterators is the psychological of not getting the result you need and you can see that play out in the graph below.
The way you want to interpret this is the less to the left of the graph is better. Higher results on towards the right means more damage.
Against a stock knight 3 NuBlits fail to do damage about 10% of the time, predators about 8%, and 3 NuBlits w/ Cacophony in any config fail about 1% of the time. And while the NuBlits sans cacophony are strictly worse by a small margin the odds for 28+ damage with full load is around 5%.
It's quite clear that Obliterators offer a platform that offers a large economy of scale for buffs. If you were to add prescience and reroll 1s to hit and wound you'd see a pretty severe damage output.
While its clear that Oblits can be very heavily buffed, my personal concern is that without them the Oblits just arent very impressive, and those buffs dont necessarily make fluff sense for a lot of armies where Oblits would commonly be expected (e.g. Slaaneshi Obliterators in an Iron Warriors army) and the increased cost is going to make them less viable overall unless one is willing to break that background adherence. If they're looking to be over 100pts each, they're gonna have trouble working in many builds.
The Librarian's tree is basically for buffing the Eliminators, and otherwise largely useless
Wha...?
Obscuration is by no means the best discipline in the game, but Hallucination, Tenebrous Curse and Mind Raid are far from what I'd call "useless" powers.
Anyway...
As someone who plays both SM (Salamanders) and CSM (World Eaters), and who's gonna get a Shadowspear box to beef up both my armies, I'm in the "SM got the better deal"-camp.
- Captain and Lieutenant are both pretty meh, as they both forgot to bring decent weaponry to the table.
- I love the Librarian(modelwise), and I think Obscuration is a far more interesting discipline than Librarius.
- I disagree with your Scout-analogy on Infiltrators. They can both infiltrate, true, but apart from that they're way to different.
Scouts get more weaponry per points, and 20 scouts have the same number of wounds as 10 infiltrators (I expect 20 scouts to cost noticeable more though), its true, however:
Infiltrators are <primaris> with all that entails. They can essentially shut down deepstriking chargers with their 12" bubble, they have a vastly superior armoursave in cover, have a smokegrenade for that crucial turn, and their weapons are, at first glance, pretty interesting.
Do I think that Infiltrators will change the meta? Absolutely not, but I can easily see myself using them in most lists.
- Suppressors are, at first glance, pretty strange, and not necessarily in a good way.
I think their suppression-rule is a gimmick, as you don't really want to shoot, what's essentially, anti-tank guns at the things you want to suppress (infantry).
Jump-pack on a unit of heavy weapons without a rule that prevents them from getting -1 while moving seems counter-productive, but I guess the option is nice.
With that said, ~100 points for 3 beefed up autocannons doesn't seem too shabby.
What's a barebones Primaris Marine worth? 17 ppm? How much for an improved Autocannon? 15 ppm? How much for a jumppack? 3 ppm? That's 35 ppm.
- Eliminators seem like a great unit.
One could argue that Vindicators are a better (but more fragile) choice, but the tournament-meta isn't the only meta, and plenty of players still refrain from souping.
Regardless, they'll be a nice, cheap Heavy Support-choice for anyone looking to field a Brigade.
As for Chaos:
- Venomcrawler seems decent, but slightly overpriced at ~140 pts.
I wouldn't praise the "battlecannon" for being Assault as it would be pretty bad if it was heavy, given the Venomcrawlers BS 4+.
Still, I can see myself using one in a walker-heavy list. The summoning-aspect is very gimmicky though, and I hope it doesn't pay anything for having this rule.
- Obliterators are crazy overpriced unless you play Slaanesh. They make my Devastator Centurions seem worth their pricetag, which is a feat in itself.
I don't see in what universe an Obliterator with its random weaponry (6 D1 autocannon shots, yay!) is worth more than a decked out Helbrute.
Model's are nice though, so I guess that's something. Personally I expect these to drop massively in price in the next CA, just as Dev Cent's did. (And Dev Cent's are still overpriced.)
- CSM are CSM. Moving on.
- Master of Possession is actually the only thing in the CSM-part of this box that I would rate as "alright".
His discipline is pretty good in the right list, the model looks decent (I'm gonna remove all the flames on my mini though), and he has a pretty interesting anti-psyker aura.
TLDR:
- SM part seems decent with some bad apples (Captain/Lieutenant.)
- CSM part seems overall pretty overpriced for what it does.
You bring up a good point with the 12" Infiltrators have.
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
Yeah, the board control and DS denial is something I've been surprised hasn't been mentioned more. My buddy who plays GSC is several shades of pissed off about that, especially coming so soon on the heels of the codex he's been waiting 2 years to get.
GW: 'GSC are amazing!'
GSC Players: 'You really care about us! Thanks!'
Two weeks later:
GSC Players: 'Why do you hate me? I haven't even gotten to play my army yet.'
GW: 'We don't actually want deep strike assault and cult ambush to be viable tactics. Also, everyone hates the Kellermorph.'
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
Yeah, the board control and DS denial is something I've been surprised hasn't been mentioned more. My buddy who plays GSC is several shades of pissed off about that, especially coming so soon on the heels of the codex he's been waiting 2 years to get.
GW: 'GSC are amazing!'
GSC Players: 'You really care about us! Thanks!'
Two weeks later:
GSC Players: 'Why do you hate me? I haven't even gotten to play my army yet.'
GW: 'We don't actually want deep strike assault and cult ambush to be viable tactics. Also, everyone hates the Kellermorph.'
You make a great point about it not being mentioned more and I think it's just because it's easier to grasp hard numbers on a profile rather than the tactics behind board control. It's something that more so you start to understand once you see it on the board and the effect it has. It absolutely brutalizes GSC and Ork DS to the point of no return. Also yes screw that kellermorph lol.
That's actually a lot of denial to units that want to appear and then just charge. It's simply something that Scouts can't prevent as well.
Yeah, the board control and DS denial is something I've been surprised hasn't been mentioned more. My buddy who plays GSC is several shades of pissed off about that, especially coming so soon on the heels of the codex he's been waiting 2 years to get.
GW: 'GSC are amazing!'
GSC Players: 'You really care about us! Thanks!'
Two weeks later:
GSC Players: 'Why do you hate me? I haven't even gotten to play my army yet.'
GW: 'We don't actually want deep strike assault and cult ambush to be viable tactics. Also, everyone hates the Kellermorph.'
Hah, yea, it throws a wet noodle on GSC, but then they can do it, too...so it's their fault!
GSC has a few ways to deal with pulling down those deepstrike blockers, but might need nids to help. It should be interesting to see how it plays out.
22 for the infiltrator is just too much for some deepstrike denial. A squad coming in at 110 points for the minimum 5 man when I can get intercessors for 85 or two entire squads of scouts (and deny way more space and get those sweet CPs) just doesn't make sense.
Shame as I was excited to add them to my wolfie boys but that's just too much. Same with the captain. At 110 no way he makes the cut in my army.
The libby at 100 seems like a steal (too cheap, I have a hard time believing it). The Eliminators at 63 for the unit seems about right. Could be a little more/less (60-65). I'm not sure about the suppressors at 33. Same price as a hellblaster but better. Just a squishy though so I'm not sold.
Depending on if new strats/tactics come out these prices might make more/less sense but as it stands now mediocre outside of the Libby and bad for the infiltrators.
I would bet that GW is using the base prices in the codex to price out new things, completely forgetting that they adjusted points in Chapter Approved and should be using that as the guide.
It looks like Oblitz are definitely going to be doing well; I'll update my model with the new cost estimate when I get home.
Eliminators for 63 points a section is pleasing.
More importantly, the Accelerator Cannons being priced separately is indicative that there could be hope in the form of future options for the Suppressors, that are hopefully more inspiring. 99 points for the suppressors is pretty much right as predicted, and I can't say I'm too enthusiastic about it.
22 points for Infiltrators if way too high. That's definitely in hard pass territory.
Greater Possessed are probably way too expensive, but I kind of predicted that anyway, and this doesn't change much.
I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Yeah, and they will never be charged by a unit arriving from reserves, so that's something
Daedalus81 wrote: I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Yeah, 5 guys can prevent deepstrikes in an area 32"x24". That's pretty nice if you're playing a gunline or something similar.
I've been playing a few tournament games with that stupid SW Falchion list and these guys would be pretty ok in that army.
I just hate how GW refuses to give primaris marines any sort of exciting CC gear.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find deepstrike blocking to be an ability potentially worthy of the price they're paying. You can cover a significant section of the board with 5 guys.
Yeah, 5 guys can prevent deepstrikes in an area 32"x24". That's pretty nice if you're playing a gunline or something similar.
I've been playing a few tournament games with that stupid SW Falchion list and these guys would be pretty ok in that army.
I just hate how GW refuses to give primaris marines any sort of exciting CC gear.
You are going to take your combat knife and go kill those enemy terminators and YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE IT!
Yeah primaris melee sucks. It's an odd thing when the intercessors are their best melee unit.
bananathug wrote: 22 for the infiltrator is just too much for some deepstrike denial. A squad coming in at 110 points for the minimum 5 man when I can get intercessors for 85 or two entire squads of scouts (and deny way more space and get those sweet CPs) just doesn't make sense.
Shame as I was excited to add them to my wolfie boys but that's just too much. Same with the captain. At 110 no way he makes the cut in my army.
The libby at 100 seems like a steal (too cheap, I have a hard time believing it). The Eliminators at 63 for the unit seems about right. Could be a little more/less (60-65). I'm not sure about the suppressors at 33. Same price as a hellblaster but better. Just a squishy though so I'm not sold.
Depending on if new strats/tactics come out these prices might make more/less sense but as it stands now mediocre outside of the Libby and bad for the infiltrators.
I have zero stock in these numbers. Current Primaris librarian is 101. So this guy can infiltrate and has a better cover save for a point less?
For 70points Greater Possessed sound like an auto-take to me. Even without other Daemon units it's still a nice cheap beatstick. Oblits for 115 points, so more than a helbrute... I'll have to try them out, it seems a bit expensive.
The ordinate is computed with a formula that isn't particularly complex, but is too annoying to type out without using LaTeX or something. It's basically a series of weighted averages [notably, inside the toughness factor, the formula to considers toughness slightly more important than wounds [since more toughness draws higher quality and lower fire rate firepower, in turn improving defense value] and considers resistance to Bolters and Battle Cannons most important, followed by Lasguns, Autocannons, and Lascannons, followed by Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, and arbitrarily large guns].
These charts consider the effects of Endless Cacophony, but not of Prescience, Delightful Agonies or any new supporting powers.
It's not particularly mathematically rigorous, but it gets the point across. I can play with the weighting, and for more arrangements it shows that New Obliterators are more efficient at 1 or 3, at almost all weightings of cost. If you increase the importance of cost, the high end drops to being bad, but 3 Oblitz becomes a very magical number.
As a side note, playing with the weights is a pretty good demonstration of "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics". If the only weapon that matters is the Hammer of Sundrance it looks like an insane buff, but it looks pretty nerf for all combinations other than 3 oblitz if you decide that shooting power is irrelevant. However, it still gets the point across, and, for almost all weight combinations, 3 Oblitz is a net efficiency buff. [The only way to make it look otherwise is to de-weight everything but wound count]
Relative efficiency compared to what exactly?
Points spent on previous Oblits vs Newblits?
Amount of old models vs amount of new models?
At 115, Newblits are slightly over 75% more expensive then current version.
Did they get 75% more shots? No. They got 50%.
Did their survivability increase by 75%? That seems unlikely, though it's slightly harder to quantity given the variables in what shoots at them. In same cases, they probably got pretty close to 75% or more survivable, whilst in others they got nowhere close.
Unit balance in 40k occurs on 2 axes at minimum (damage efficiency and survivability efficiency, possibly with a utility efficicency factor as well, though that's a lot harder to calculate).
So if you have a model with 10 shots and 5 wounds, and you increase that models shots by 100%, then increase its cost by 100%, you still still haven't justified the new point cost, because it's no more survivable than previously, but now costs twice as much. In that situation, you have achieved a net nerf, despite the doubled damage making it appear to be an even upgrade.
The same applies to survivability pricing. If you make a unit twice as durable but don't double it's damage output, whilst doubling it's cost, you have again nerfed the unit.
Newblits should be somewhere between (eyeballing) 80-95 points, depending on your perspective of how much they needed a buff (and they needed a buff; just because they were one of the better units in the codex doesn't make them 'good').
You cannot factor psychic powers/stratagems/aura's into things, because, with some exceptions, those powers benefit all units equally, where the percentage increase is concerned. VotLW would be an exception that scales some units better than others, due to the S/T charts having peaks.
So, while yes, you can say 'but Cacophony' or 'but Prescience', and those buffs will certainly inflate their numbers, they would inflate the numbers on virtually any other unit by the same percentage increase. Cacophony flat doubles your damage regardless of which unit you use it on, so using it on 'less efficient' units vs 'more efficient' units only increases the degree by which those units are more or less efficient. There's absolutely a case that doubling your damage from 10 wounds to 20 wounds is better than 5 wounds to 10 wounds, for sure, but Cacophonys entire problem is that it ignores the existence of Vect/GSCVect, which means that it's not a reliable strategy if you might run into those armies at any point (such as, say, at a tournament). So if you're relying on Cacophony to force multiply the damage on your inefficient Newblits (that you've paid 345pts for) to get those big numbers, those points are then more dead vs Aeldari/GSC+allies than, for example, Imperium, resulting in them being a less viable unit (i.e one of the exact same problems current oblits have).
Also, yes, while you certainly can factor the new melee weapon into things, it's in no way relevant to the reason you're adding them to a list, which, presumably, is to fill things with bullets from 24" away.
If Oblits are 115, that is just fine by me. It's basically a harder hitting, weaker helbrute at this point, with built in deepstrike and the demon keyword. Although, even 'weaker' is relative, considering it has 2+ save and 5+ invuln to counteract the 4 wounds per model issue. It will cry itself to sleep against any sort of mortal wounds, that's for sure.
The Eliminators are pretty dang good. Take 3 units of 3 and you've got some pretty tough to kill snipers that will probably be able to gib something valuable ever turn.
There is basically no reason to take this librarian though - he is absolutely terrible. With every current tree available being much better. Say what you want about Librarus (it is bad) but nullzone is a game winning power when you need it and might of heros is a solid buff spell for some good units like (leviathans/Gman/Calgar) plus when combined with Tiggy-1 to hit ability it is basically the only good combo in the marine arsenal. Obscuration has ether a unit restriction or is the exact same as another power in another codex with some sort of crux that makes it worse to much worse. Pretty hard to see why anyone would call this tree decent.
The infiltrators have a really awesome rule. 12" no deep strike zone is REALLY amazing. Plus their bolters have a nice bonus feature of autowounding on 6's to hit - in combination with their ease in getting free double taps. Plus an apoth in the squad? Ehh…if they are 18-19 points each 3 squads of 5 are pretty auto include. If they are 21 points as suggested by some. Perhaps a single 5 man to protect against deep strike turn 1 cheese will be good enough to see play. I wont touch them at their price though. Heck a few more points gets me another eliminator.
The autocannon guys are Okay but it will really depend on cost with these guys. Relic Leviathan with storm cannon outperforms these guys by a significant margin. Same wounds/double toughness/ 4++ save/ more shots/ buffable costs less? WOW. Pretty hard sell for the eliminators. It's too bad they don't have special lascannons. It's also really sad they don't ignore movement penalties. Their ignore overwatch ability is nice. HOWEVER - most units with scary overwatch are a single model - yet...again...conditional issues that other armies don't have to deal with because they are not space marines. Autarch charges....you just cant overwatch….
The infiltrator captain is remarkably bad....though has a really weird ability to hold objectives by himself....point cost can not justify such nonsense though.
LT? Who cares....
All in all - this box is a massive disappointment for anyone looking for improvements to space marines. It's also disappointing we didn't get the new primaries vehicle as well. Basically I know what GW is doing with marines. Space marines are a starter army that gets you hooked on the game. Their job is to attract cusmtomers and then when they realize their armies sucks they buy another one or trade it for another army....etherway….they are probably spending 10k plus over the next 15 years.
Infilitrators are pretty bad because of how expensive they are. if they were a few points lower they would be my mainstay along with my intercessors. They would be a great supplement to my primaris forces / (kitbashing a few regular marines to be infilitrators).
A helix adept being as expensive as a terminator is a bit much.
The 100pts for the Libby could be right if not including war gear. If they have to buy their camo cloak and force weapon, that puts it, what, 7points more, which is a reasonable ballpark for adding an infiltrate deploy. Otherwise I guess they decided to reduce costs on Librarians and missed CA.
That Infiltrator cost is def weird. I first read that as 18 for the Infiltrator and 22 for the Eliminator, which frankly makes more sense.
I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 3 models using a 1 shot weapon at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).
I mean, the Mortis is basically an AP-1 Sniper Mortar. While it gets about half the hits of an actual mortar, the ability to snipe characters within 36" with pretty much no way of stopping it is pretty dang nice.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 1shot at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).
Small correction - Infiltrators can be taken in units of up to 10
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 1shot at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).
Small correction - Infiltrators can be taken in units of up to 10
That makes really good although a bit expensive. They could cause serious mischief up field. They are now my favourite from the rest, well if they were cheaper.
JNAProductions wrote: I mean, the Mortis is basically an AP-1 Sniper Mortar. While it gets about half the hits of an actual mortar, the ability to snipe characters within 36" with pretty much no way of stopping it is pretty dang nice.
Indeed, and sniping out Altaioc Characters that can't hide on a 2+ is amazing.
A couple units of Eliminators will be great counters against weaker support characters that Aeldari and IG like to use.
JNAProductions wrote: I mean, the Mortis is basically an AP-1 Sniper Mortar. While it gets about half the hits of an actual mortar, the ability to snipe characters within 36" with pretty much no way of stopping it is pretty dang nice.
Indeed, and sniping out Altaioc Characters that can't hide on a 2+ is amazing.
A couple units of Eliminators will be great counters against weaker support characters that Aeldari and IG like to use.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think Infiltrators would be so good if it weren't for the fact that they are only 3 man units and eliminators seem not bad, the low strength is an issue and the mortal wound isn't happening a lot with a 3 man unit, they are more for infantry, they are amazing anti-character killers but, the executioner round looks nice but with 1shot at st4 good luck trying to get the goodies of the AP and D and the hyperfrag round is just a long ranged bolter and the Mortis shot is especially awful basically a bolt gun with -1 AP, and who cares about the anti-cover. suppressors are good tactically wise but they aren't exactly big hitters, though I have to see the full rules before I make any sort of judgement. Nothing is really that good though so far. GW's insistence on 3 man units is what seems to be the future, but SM's will be gak until every other army follows that trend (which I don't see happening with the other new armies).
Small correction - Infiltrators can be taken in units of up to 10
That makes really good although a bit expensive. They could cause serious mischief up field. They are now my favourite from the rest, well if they were cheaper.
Yep a bit expensive but excellent board control units.
So I've been looking more at the Venomcrawler as it seems to be the real dark horse here. The biggest downer is its points put it comparable to the Defiler and Maulerfiend (I'm almost certain that GW didn't check what adjustments they were doing to similar units in Chapter Approved with this; it seems on par with the Myphitic Blighthauler which went down significantly in Chapter Approved 2018), but let's compare to the Maulerfiend which is IMHO it's closest rival:
* It has 2 fewer wounds (10 compared to 12)
* It has two Assault D3 guns with decent stats for light anti-tank work (the variable damage sucks, however. I'd have preferred a flat 2, but what can you do) which when compared to the Defiler is better as it makes it a mobile gun platform.
* Same Toughness/WS/BS/Movement, 3+ save, 5+ Invulnerable
* Slightly better regen (1 automatically, 1 if it killed anything)
We don't know it's attack characteristic but let's assume 4 attacks at full health as that seems to be the standard.
That means it gets 4 attacks with its claws (at full health S8 AP -3 and 3 damage) plus 2 attacks from the Tendrils (S6 AP -2 and 2 Damage) or 6 attacks with the Tendrils. This makes it able to deal with heavily armored targets (claws) or elites (tendrils). If you have a Greater Possessed nearby it gets +1 strength to everything so S9 gun and claws and S7 lashers (likely not too relevant however as it won't make a huge difference except maybe for the claws if you're attacking something with high Toughness). Let's also remember the Master of Possession has two very good spells: Cursed Earth (+1 invulnerable) and Infernal Power (re-roll hit and wound) in an aura around him. The re-rolls can help to offset the 4+ BS while Cursed Earth gives it a very respectable 3+/4++ with regen.
That's not too bad at all when you think about it. It has to be used in tandem with something else IMHO; something to screen it and provide support as it supports them. A 36" assault gun with decent anti-elite stats isn't anything to scoff at. Its melee is decent enough if you aren't trying to make it kill things by itself.
I don't know. It sounds like it could have some merit after all.
BrianDavion wrote: And I bet we'll see the price go down, the inital wave of primaris where over priced too. with Intercessors being 20 points per man,
I hope so, but then again, one would imagine that once they had realised that they initially overestimated the worth of the Primaris units, they wouldn't do it again.
BrianDavion wrote: And I bet we'll see the price go down, the inital wave of primaris where over priced too. with Intercessors being 20 points per man,
That isn't how things are supposed to work. The scouts are a lot like an intercessor - their gun is almost as good with really only 6" bonus going to the intercessor. However the Vanguard get infiltration and that sweet no deep strike zone.They should really be 2 points more than an intercessor for these stats. Realistically though an intercessor should be less than 17 points.
Karol wrote: Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?
They do, and there is no purpose in a 100 pt obliterator, much less a 115 pt one.
The Chaos releases, rules and pricing so far balance somewhere between a bad joke and a direct middle finger from GW. The models are cool, sure, but that was GW's trick a couple of editions back. I ain't falling for that again.
Karol wrote: Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?
A Helbrute with twin lascannon and Helbrute fist is 130 points. Which is part of why 115 Obliterators are a tough sell. The Helbrute is way more durable and more reliable with its shots, but the Oblits can deep strike and have a smaller profile as well as having more buffs from the Master of Possession and possibly other Sorcerers as well.
I don't think they are totally in competition, but they are close. I see points for using Obliterators or Helbrutes, or even both, but such a hefty price point for a single Obliterator without the same increase in effectiveness (they got better, sure, but not THAT much better) makes it less appealing.
Daedalus81 wrote: The heck with reroll 1s to hit and wound - I want to snack-rifice some warpsmiths. If they have a new model I'm all in for a daemon engine list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also - SAD FACE.
So, there's that. Oh well, now I can get Kairos instead of buying the new box.
Karol wrote: Do chaos dreadnoughts got the price loyalist ones got too? And if yes, then what is the point of a 100 plus points obliterator ?
A Helbrute with twin lascannon and Helbrute fist is 130 points. Which is part of why 115 Obliterators are a tough sell. The Helbrute is way more durable and more reliable with its shots, but the Oblits can deep strike and have a smaller profile as well as having more buffs from the Master of Possession and possibly other Sorcerers as well.
I don't think they are totally in competition, but they are close. I see points for using Obliterators or Helbrutes, or even both.
A Hellbrute with a plasma cannon and a missile launcher is 96 pts. A Hellbrute with a twin heavy bolter and a missile launcher is 97 pts. There is zero explanation or justification on the obliterator cost.
I'm pretty sure the justification is "We didn't look at Chapter Approved before deciding points"
To be fair though I don't think Helbrutes and Obliterators fill exactly the same role, however, there is a lot of overlap. Slaaneshi Obliterators can benefit from more buffs, fire twice without restrictions (Helbrute has Fire Frenzy but has to have not moved and needs to fire at the closest target, which may not always be the target you want to shoot at), have a 5+ Invuln (could be 4+ with MoP and Cursed Earth), re-roll hits and wounds (with Infernal Power) but IMHO can't be used for one specific role. They need to be considered an anti-elite generalist unit. If you want dedicated anti-tank for example I think you'd be better off with the Helbrute. If you want more Flexibility, then I think the Obliterators start to shine even with their increased cost.
Also, people like to point out when comparing Helbrute and Obliterator that the Obliterator can deep strike. This should be clarified to 'should deep strike' which means you're not getting their firepower turn 1 if you win initiative. Granted, the Helbrute is probably dead on turn 1 also, but given its smaller unit size, it's actually a bit easier to hide than a 3 man squad of Obliterators and has significantly better movement to get out of hiding and into a firing position.
I'm not advocating passionately one way or the other (I think Oblits are too expensive, but I don't field Helbrutes), just saying that the deep strike option on the Obliterators is not automatically better than having to put a Helbrute on the table for less points.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Also, people like to point out when comparing Helbrute and Obliterator that the Obliterator can deep strike. This should be clarified to 'should deep strike' which means you're not getting their firepower turn 1 if you win initiative. Granted, the Helbrute is probably dead on turn 1 also, but given its smaller unit size, it's actually a bit easier to hide than a 3 man squad of Obliterators and has significantly better movement to get out of hiding and into a firing position.
I'm not advocating passionately one way or the other (I think Oblits are too expensive, but I don't field Helbrutes), just saying that the deep strike option on the Obliterators is not automatically better than having to put a Helbrute on the table for less points.
I think it will boil down to whether you want flexibility since you roll for Fleshmetal before you decide what to shoot at, or dedicated to one role. There's a lot of overlap but I think there will be situations where one is better than the other or even take both.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Also, people like to point out when comparing Helbrute and Obliterator that the Obliterator can deep strike. This should be clarified to 'should deep strike' which means you're not getting their firepower turn 1 if you win initiative. Granted, the Helbrute is probably dead on turn 1 also, but given its smaller unit size, it's actually a bit easier to hide than a 3 man squad of Obliterators and has significantly better movement to get out of hiding and into a firing position.
I'm not advocating passionately one way or the other (I think Oblits are too expensive, but I don't field Helbrutes), just saying that the deep strike option on the Obliterators is not automatically better than having to put a Helbrute on the table for less points.
Not just deepstrike, but force multipliers.
I otherwise muse about deepstriking singular NuBlits into cover near objectives that a helbrute might have trouble getting to. I likely won't have the points for that though.
I honestly love everything about the Vanguard. Those are the marines I have been wanting to play. (Raven Guard player here). I think they are good without being broken. The 12" denial area means you have to deep strike shooting at -1 at me, and the librarian can do interesting stuff to protect my heavy hitters in certain situations. If you play either Raptors or RG this box is good. As someone else said, the autocannon guys seem just TQ killers (or primaris killers), but the army as a whole is pretty hard to shift by GSC although it struggles against knights (then again who doesn't). It gets pretty good tools against eldars as well. Sadly no new vehicles or melee options. I think SM needed a primaris melee oriented unit more than they needed flying autocannons.
BrianDavion wrote: And I bet we'll see the price go down, the inital wave of primaris where over priced too. with Intercessors being 20 points per man,
I hope so, but then again, one would imagine that once they had realised that they initially overestimated the worth of the Primaris units, they wouldn't do it again.
could be but GW seems to be acting very conservitive with primaris units pricing
It'd be nice to have a poll because I don't have much to add, as I completely agree with OP (although I haven't seen the psychic powers). Nothing in the space marine list seems any good. As many others have said the captain and lieutenant are very meh. I don't get the eliminator hype. It's three dudes with strength 4 weapons. The ignores LOS is really useless, the frag version is only useful if there's no good targets in sight and you have to shoot basic infantry with your three snipers, and the main sniping profile is severely limited by its strength 4. The infiltratiors are also pretty meh, the 12" bubble with infiltrate is nice, but their gun is really no better than a bolter, I can't see taking any more than one squad of five. Also, really can't see the hype behind the autocannon dudes. If they're a mobile unit, don't give them a heavy weapon. If they're a fire support unit, give them a better gun than an autocannon with 1 more ap (which really isn't anything to write home about) and don't make them mobile. All in all kinda disappointing.
I think the basic issue is whilst in a vacuum these are cool units, what place do they have in the wider space marine list, and what units can they vie with for spots in a list with? I'd say they don't have much of a place in the marine army as it stands, as they don't seem to synergise with the rest of the codex, and they don't look as though they can really deal enough damage to push the few decent SM units out of their spots.
Well a big part of the snipers is that they are fairly cheap and say 6 or so for 120 points with a vindicare could reliably take out 1 to 2 characters (t3-4) a turn which may not make back their immediate points back, but can really screw over the opponents plans that rely on characters. In addition that really make your opponent have to respect them and be more conservative with his characters due to the threat of the snipers. It's really match dependent if they will be all that hot or not, but I can see them being pretty decent.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Well a big part of the snipers is that they are fairly cheap and say 6 or so for 120 points with a vindicare could reliably take out 1 to 2 characters (t3-4) a turn which may not make back their immediate points back, but can really screw over the opponents plans that rely on characters. In addition that really make your opponent have to respect them and be more conservative with his characters due to the threat of the snipers. It's really match dependent if they will be all that hot or not, but I can see them being pretty decent.
Eh, why go for pretty decent when you could spend the points on something good? Also I don't intend to spend 190 quid just for six guys.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: It'd be nice to have a poll because I don't have much to add, as I completely agree with OP (although I haven't seen the psychic powers). Nothing in the space marine list seems any good. As many others have said the captain and lieutenant are very meh. I don't get the eliminator hype. It's three dudes with strength 4 weapons. The ignores LOS is really useless, the frag version is only useful if there's no good targets in sight and you have to shoot basic infantry with your three snipers, and the main sniping profile is severely limited by its strength 4. The infiltratiors are also pretty meh, the 12" bubble with infiltrate is nice, but their gun is really no better than a bolter, I can't see taking any more than one squad of five. Also, really can't see the hype behind the autocannon dudes. If they're a mobile unit, don't give them a heavy weapon. If they're a fire support unit, give them a better gun than an autocannon with 1 more ap (which really isn't anything to write home about) and don't make them mobile. All in all kinda disappointing.
I think the basic issue is whilst in a vacuum these are cool units, what place do they have in the wider space marine list, and what units can they vie with for spots in a list with? I'd say they don't have much of a place in the marine army as it stands, as they don't seem to synergise with the rest of the codex, and they don't look as though they can really deal enough damage to push the few decent SM units out of their spots.
A bolter that causes an autowound on a 6 to hit is no better than a bolter?
People should probably wait for stratagems if they're on the fence - or start thinking in terms of all the other current stratagems and traits that benefit these units.
I am fairly sure these points are missing something. If you look at the Warhammer Community list posted up today with a potential 2k point army and add up all the units we have points for it comes out to roughly 1140-1200 depending on gear picks. This list of points plugged in to the new units only adds up to about 600, so there is roughly a 200+ point gap there. We all know it is a meh 2k point list, but I would be surprised if they were that far off in the points department (though I could be wrong there).
So yeah, girdle your mutated loins for a random sprinkling of 200ish points divided up between these leaked numbers on the new darlings we have coming our way.
I am fairly sure these points are missing something. If you look at the Warhammer Community list posted up today with a potential 2k point army and add up all the units we have points for it comes out to roughly 1140-1200 depending on gear picks. This list of points plugged in to the new units only adds up to about 600, so there is roughly a 200+ point gap there. We all know it is a meh 2k point list, but I would be surprised if they were that far off in the points department (though I could be wrong there).
So yeah, girdle your mutated loins for a random sprinkling of 200ish points divided up between these leaked numbers on the new darlings we have coming our way.
I think the writers were not concerned with making a list at exactly 2000 points.
This army, approximately 2000 points in size when kitted out
Daedalus81 wrote: A bolter that causes an autowound on a 6 to hit is no better than a bolter?
People should probably wait for stratagems if they're on the fence - or start thinking in terms of all the other current stratagems and traits that benefit these units.
Sorry, probably should have spelled out what I was thinking more. I mean vs an intercessor's 30" and ap1, getting 1 auto wound with no ap every six shots really isn't that attractive, to me at least.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Well a big part of the snipers is that they are fairly cheap and say 6 or so for 120 points with a vindicare could reliably take out 1 to 2 characters (t3-4) a turn which may not make back their immediate points back, but can really screw over the opponents plans that rely on characters. In addition that really make your opponent have to respect them and be more conservative with his characters due to the threat of the snipers. It's really match dependent if they will be all that hot or not, but I can see them being pretty decent.
Eh, why go for pretty decent when you could spend the points on something good? Also I don't intend to spend 180 quid just for six guys.
Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.
Do t3-t4 characters really dominate though whilst being taken in small enough numbers to be seriously threatened? Can they not just be hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or in a transport or in reserve? If eliminators are such a threat, won't they be splatted immediately, given they're just 6 wounds and are not characters, leaving just the one vindicator shot? The problems that affect snipers in this game still apply to the eliminators.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.
Do t3-t4 characters really dominate though whilst being taken in small enough numbers to be seriously threatened? Can they not just be hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or in a transport or in reserve? If eliminators are such a threat, won't they be splatted immediately, given they're just 6 wounds and are not characters, leaving just the one vindicator shot? The problems that affect snipers in this game still apply to the eliminators.
Well eldar and guard are both well off armies and have a lot of squishy targets. Orks and cult are also have a lot of good support characters who are squishy. LoS wont help avoid all the shots from the eliminators and there is not always going to be LoS blocking available and if there is it may limit your aura effects. If we ever get to take bigger squads of eliminators (probably likely) they can get the power off on them from the sneaky libby that makes them be impossible to shoot unless the closest so that can help keep them alive. If you don't get that then at least they have a 1+ save in cover so even against the dread primaris killer pro dissy cannon they have a 4+ save and if they are getting shot something else isn't.
I'm not saying they are going to change the meta or even heavily feature in tournament winning lists, but I think they might just make a solid addition to some armies and not feel like a tax when you put them on the table.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Well I mean being able to be serious threat to characters and have that threat level on the field might be pretty solid once we get to play with it and see how it works out. 6 eliminators with a double tapping vindicare would be around the 220 mark and be a pretty serious threat to any t3-t4 character and to even beefier character through sustained fire.
Do t3-t4 characters really dominate though whilst being taken in small enough numbers to be seriously threatened? Can they not just be hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or in a transport or in reserve? If eliminators are such a threat, won't they be splatted immediately, given they're just 6 wounds and are not characters, leaving just the one vindicator shot? The problems that affect snipers in this game still apply to the eliminators.
Well eldar and guard are both well off armies and have a lot of squishy targets. Orks and cult are also have a lot of good support characters who are squishy. LoS wont help avoid all the shots from the eliminators and there is not always going to be LoS blocking available and if there is it may limit your aura effects. If we ever get to take bigger squads of eliminators (probably likely) they can get the power off on them from the sneaky libby that makes them be impossible to shoot unless the closest so that can help keep them alive. If you don't get that then at least they have a 1+ save in cover so even against the dread primaris killer pro dissy cannon they have a 4+ save and if they are getting shot something else isn't.
I'm not saying they are going to change the meta or even heavily feature in tournament winning lists, but I think they might just make a solid addition to some armies and not feel like a tax when you put them on the table.
Yeah but their squishy units are cheap and are supported by a lot of other cheap units. SM's can't afford to be squishy. If a squishy guard unit dies, there are still about 50 more left lol
Killing a commander is like also killing 10 IS, because two units of IS are now half as effective. But with the proliferation of snipers people are going to start rolling bodyguards and transports more, so, you have to determine if snipers are also good for your list or gamble that snipers won't make the meta.
Daedalus81 wrote: Killing a commander is like also killing 10 IS, because two units of IS are now half as effective. But with the proliferation of snipers people are going to start rolling bodyguards and transports more, so, you have to determine if snipers are also good for your list or gamble that snipers won't make the meta.
That's exactly why I don't really like them. Amazing for clipping characters, but that low strength and single shot in a 3 man unit isn't going to do much against vehicles etc. Plus if the opponent is relying on their characters then its too easy for them to just target and kill the executioners.
The loyalist half of the box is terribly pointed, and the librarian only affecting PHOBOS stuff is really, really stupid. Those powers would immediately help marines become solid. But no, primaris only, and a subset of primaris that only so far has crappy overcosted gak.
Marmatag wrote: The loyalist half of the box is terribly pointed, and the librarian only affecting PHOBOS stuff is really, really stupid. Those powers would immediately help marines become solid. But no, primaris only, and a subset of primaris that only so far has crappy overcosted gak.
I didn't know that, that's ridiculous both game-wise and lore-wise.
Daedalus81 wrote: Killing a commander is like also killing 10 IS, because two units of IS are now half as effective. But with the proliferation of snipers people are going to start rolling bodyguards and transports more, so, you have to determine if snipers are also good for your list or gamble that snipers won't make the meta.
Did anyone actually do the math on these guys killing a Company Commander?
With the d3 damage or d3 shots rounds (effectively the same, since he's got a 5+/5++) it takes seven guys to one-round him, assuming no buffs. (6.75 to be exact.)
With the "I don't give a crap about LoS, so screw your characters!" rounds, it takes twice that.
JNAProductions wrote: With the d3 damage or d3 shots rounds (effectively the same, since he's got a 5+/5++) it takes seven guys to one-round him, assuming no buffs. (6.75 to be exact.)
With the "I don't give a crap about LoS, so screw your characters!" rounds, it takes twice that.
So they're not really dangerous it sounds like to characters. About what I expected.
I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?
With maximum overbuff, it drops to less than four needed to kill a Company Commander. But that's with Bobby G.
A little more conservative, with just a Chapter Master and Lieutenant, it takes about four and one third to do a Company Commander in.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?
I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?
I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.
I doubt in GWs ability to package anything from a rule focused perspective. The fact is that they have a potential synergy with the Vindicare and yeah it would be nice if they didn't need him (and they might not) to be pretty alright. This is the edition of soup and if you are wanting to take things from a more competitive standpoint you have the factor that in.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?
I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.
I doubt in GWs ability to package anything from a rule focused perspective. The fact is that they have a potential synergy with the Vindicare and yeah it would be nice if they didn't need him (and they might not) to be pretty alright. This is the edition of soup and if you are wanting to take things from a more competitive standpoint you have the factor that in.
No, that's just how to make a bad situation better, it has no bearing on whether its a good unit or not.
JNAProductions wrote: With the d3 damage or d3 shots rounds (effectively the same, since he's got a 5+/5++) it takes seven guys to one-round him, assuming no buffs. (6.75 to be exact.)
With the "I don't give a crap about LoS, so screw your characters!" rounds, it takes twice that.
I don't think you can evaluate SM units without looking at chapter tactics and aura buffs.
I am painting mine up with the rest of my primaris as Crimson Fists. If I want to sink a bunch of CP into offing a guard officer it gets pretty useful
Slay the Tyrant - 1CP
Bolter Drill -1CP
Use that nice new warlord trait for +1 to hit.
Now they are hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1's (because the warlord is within 3" for the trait) and generating extra shots on 4+
Should be getting 4-5 hits from 3 dudes.
That averages 3 wounds before saves, a little more if you have re-rolls on to-wound
So on average dice the dude dies. Just about.
I will not always want to burn 2CP just to kill a cheap character but if my opponent went all-in on the CP regeneration then I bag myself a warlord kill for that and stop them using a strategy they had built for- in that case it is totally worth a couple of CP. Similarly if only one Warlock has Quicken guess who has a big target painted on them?
If the unit size goes up to 6 when the full kit and rules are out then it works a lot better - buffing up a 6-man squad is always going to get more work done than a 3-man squad. In the meantime it is OK-ish, I can threaten a key squishy character if I want to and if not then I have spent ~60 points on a unit that camps a backfield objective while plinking away at stuff - the frag shells are tolerably efficient against any sort of chaff because of the +1 to hit from Crimson Fists CT.
With those initial 3 man squads I think Salamanders have the most efficient CT. Just that CT on its own makes them seriously threatening to squishy characters like Guard Commanders or Eldar Warlocks.
On balance it is an affordable unit that has enough utility to justify putting it on the table. Enough armies are upset by having squishy characters killed that they earn their place.
Wayniac wrote: BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.
115 point Obliterators...
Almost a relief really. 115 is rough but I can see ways it can still get play. I was worried it was going to be more. I am going to be rethinking how I use them for sure. Doubt I will do the three oblit drop anymore, just too unreliable for the point cost.
Wayniac wrote: BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.
115 point Obliterators...
The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.
How much were you really expecting them to be? 12" bubble of "NOPE!" plus the ability to forward deploy and natural rolls of 6s result in a Wound?
22 points might be a bit high--but that's only because Intercessors and Tacticals are high to start with. Expecting Infiltrators to be cheap was a fool's errand.
All seriousness: this is GSC Neophytes v Guard Infantry Squads all over again. People kept trying to say Neophytes at 5ppm were "too expensive" when it was a GEQ model with +1LD, ability to DS, and the Bodyguard rule for nearby characters all rolled into one.
Wayniac wrote: BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.
115 point Obliterators...
The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.
How much were you really expecting them to be? 12" bubble of "NOPE!" plus the ability to forward deploy and natural rolls of 6s result in a Wound?
22 points might be a bit high--but that's only because Intercessors and Tacticals are high to start with. Expecting Infiltrators to be cheap was a fool's errand.
All seriousness: this is GSC Neophytes v Guard Infantry Squads all over again. People kept trying to say Neophytes at 5ppm were "too expensive" when it was a GEQ model with +1LD, ability to DS, and the Bodyguard rule for nearby characters all rolled into one.
I was expecting 20 pts each(which puts them as being still more expensive than Reivers and Intercessors.) And the Helix Adept to not be 32 pts. He is maybe 25 pts tops, especially since you need to bring the full 10 Marines to use him. That would put a full squad at 205 pts, which is decent. 25 pts down from the existing numbers.
The other models are a bargain, IMO. Eliminators are 72 pts which is pretty good for having the second best sniper rifle in the game.
Crimson wrote: My plan was to have several six man squads with the medic, though with these prices...
Likewise, I was going to replace three Intercessor Squads with three Infiltrator Squads. But a squad of 6 including the medic isn't that much further from two squads of Intercessors. I am scrapping that plan for the time being, likely not until the full box comes out. Hopefully a box of ten comes with the parts to make multiple Sergeants and Helix Adepts, that way I can make three squads of six out of one box plus the Shadowspear ones.
I wouldn't field a half-medic for anything less than a full squad. His extra cost of adding him to 5-man squads is going to add up fast, and he's not going to be getting as much value.
And since there aren't really buffs I'm thinking of targeting Infiltratoirs will, I see no reason to bring full squads, so the Helix Adept will probably be extra,
Warlord traits CSM revealed, Any PSYKER warlord can take them(daemon prince, master of possession or sorcerer on daemon mount):
Devourer of magic (make 1 additional DtW, every successful deny regen 1W on psycher)
Warp lord (reroll all 1s for psychic tests)
Arch-Sorcerer (Your warlord knows one additional power)
Reader of Fate (Once per battle, reroll a failed psychic test or Deny the Witch. In addition, every time you successfully manifest a psychic powers, you gain 1 CP) EDIT: apparently this is only on a 6
Infernal Gaze (Smite at 24" instead of 18")
Daemon-linked Power (Add 1 to WL Strength trait. Reroll damage rolls for Force weapons, including relics)
So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?
33 points for a Suppressor ... that's cheaper than either variety of Inceptor! That doesn't make any [expletive] sense either.
Probably make as much sense as a single obliterator costing more then a shoty dreadnought.
Now now, i got constantly told the new obliterators are better
They look like they're better than the old ones for specific unit configurations.
I re-made the graphs from before at 115 points...
Spoiler:
They're showing relative difference compared to old obliterators. Values greater than 1 represent a net improvement, values less than 1 represent a net nerf. The value is calculated by applying a weighted average to the change in cost, amalgamated ranged firepower, and amalgamated resiliency. [Since their melee power and movement are either irrelevant or unchanged, they're weighted as "0", or irrelevant]. I assigned the percent change in ranged firepower and reiliency with nested weighted averages; though firepower basically boils down to the change in shot count since the other values are unchanged.
If you disagree with the weights, rest assured that for almost all weight combinations, 3 New Oblitz represents a net cost-firepower efficiency improvement over 6 Old Oblitz. However, 2 is a massive nerf for all weights, since they're more expensive for the same power.
The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.
The uptrail at the high values is because the rule of 3 stops the Old Obliterators short of achieving those levels, so as long as shooting power is considering a value, it uptrails after the point where you couldn't have any more Obliterators. The extra cost drops it down if you increase the importance of cost, though.
The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.
Except when they're not, like maybe when you're playing into GSC/Aeldari.
This is why factoring stratagems into the numbers is completely misrepresenting their efficiency.
If your Oblits are garbage when you play Aeldari/GSC because they don't get propped up by stratagems, then you can't put them into a list. It's just bad list-building.
If you don't expect to ever face either of those factions, then sure, you can make a case for assumed stratagem success, but given both factions apparent popularity, it's completely disingenuous to claim they're 'better'.
edit: Furthermore, unless I'm misunderstanding something, relative efficiency vs number fielded is not an entirely useful metric when they jacked up the cost by 75%.
Relative efficiency per point spent is what matters, because that's what determines whether your points are going further than they previously were. For the price of 9 oldblits you can get just over 5 newblits. Thats a total of 36 shots and 27 wounds (oldblits) vs 30 shots and 20 wounds (newblits). Is T5 really worth 7 fewer wounds? In some cases, maybe. In others, definitely not. Given there was no change beyond number of shots, I think everyone can agree that 36 shots is better than 30 shots, right?
Unless the minidex also has a couple stratagems that work with Infiltrators to double shot or do something else useful, they definitely don't seem worth the 22 each vs an Intercessor's 17. Sure, the zone denial is worth a few extra points, no question. But, the gun is at best equal and you're giving up the Veteran upgrade and the double shot Vigilus powers which really buff Intercessors and even still leave Intercessors a not super popular pick. And that's not even comparing them to Scouts which get double the bodies to cover even more area and give more shots. IMO, Infiltrators make more sense at like 18-19pts, maybe the 20-22 only with good stratagems.
I actually think the Helix Adept is worth it's points. Since you're not losing the model's capabilities as a Infiltrator, you're only actually paying 10 points over simply taking another body, and if he recovers at least one wound, then he has saved at least 11 points and has made his investment back immediately.
The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.
Except when they're not, like maybe when you're playing into GSC/Aeldari.
This is why factoring stratagems into the numbers is completely misrepresenting their efficiency.
If your Oblits are garbage when you play Aeldari/GSC because they don't get propped up by stratagems, then you can't put them into a list. It's just bad list-building.
If you don't expect to ever face either of those factions, then sure, you can make a case for assumed stratagem success, but given both factions apparent popularity, it's completely disingenuous to claim they're 'better'.
edit: Furthermore, unless I'm misunderstanding something, relative efficiency vs number fielded is not an entirely useful metric when they jacked up the cost by 75%.
Relative efficiency per point spent is what matters, because that's what determines whether your points are going further than they previously were. For the price of 9 oldblits you can get just over 5 newblits. Thats a total of 36 shots and 27 wounds (oldblits) vs 30 shots and 20 wounds (newblits). Is T5 really worth 7 fewer wounds? In some cases, maybe. In others, definitely not. Given there was no change beyond number of shots, I think everyone can agree that 36 shots is better than 30 shots, right?
Then bait with another Strategem. It isn't my fault you can't make your opponent choose between Cacophony or ToT or VotLW.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think their big trick will be their use alongside a vindicare which can do the majority of the leg work and double tap onto a different character. Also add on that when are marines ever without some form of buff?
I really doubt they intended to package them 'use with vindicare' they compliment a vindicare but you shouldn't need other units to make units better, especially ones that are not from the same codex.
I doubt in GWs ability to package anything from a rule focused perspective. The fact is that they have a potential synergy with the Vindicare and yeah it would be nice if they didn't need him (and they might not) to be pretty alright. This is the edition of soup and if you are wanting to take things from a more competitive standpoint you have the factor that in.
No, that's just how to make a bad situation better, it has no bearing on whether its a good unit or not.
Soup options has no bearing on whether a unit is good or not? What game are you playing? The reason the castellen is so good is because of soup allows it to be so good. If you took away all of its supporting elements it would not be the juggernaut it is.
Then bait with another Strategem. It isn't my fault you can't make your opponent choose between Cacophony or ToT or VotLW.
Why on earth would your opponent Vect VotLW when they can cripple your telegraphed Oblit drop? Hmm, do I want to stop the Oblits doing 25%ish more damage, or 100% more damage? Man, that's a really tough choice.
And Tide? You're going to use your once-per game stratagem frivolously in order to try and bait out a Vect (during your movement phase) that they can then re-use during your shooting phase anyway (unless they're GSC)?
All they have to do is stop Cacophony on the drop. After that, the Oblits are either dead, or have suffered enough casualties that you can't feasibly Cacophony them anyway.
What planet do some of you guys even live on? I feel like I'm taking fething crazy pills.
edit: You know what. You guys do you. It makes literally zero difference to me whether or not you use them, and I'm sure you'll find out for yourselves how garbage they are in your own time. And if they're not garbage for you, then congrats on having opponents who don't punish your inefficiencies. Just stop spreading misinformation to people who don't know any better. Oblits at base stats are objectively less efficient. Period. There is no discussion possible on this front, and if you disagree, you don't know how numbers work. They get better when you stack buffs on them, but that doesn't make them efficient. Stop equivocating the two.
So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?
One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.
So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?
One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.
Eliminators are a heavy support choice. Infilitrators are a troop choice.
So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?
One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.
Eliminators are a heavy support choice. Infilitrators are a troop choice.
Cool. Point still stands. Rule of 3 can potentially apply, hence it's not a big deal if the unit is slightly cheaper.
So an armed Eliminator is cheaper than an Infiltrator? What kind of [expletive] sense does that make?
One of them is an Elite choice and potentially subject to the Rule of 3 in an organized play setting while the other is a Troops choice that looks to have all of its wargear costs baked in from the outset.
Eliminators are a heavy support choice. Infilitrators are a troop choice.
Cool. Point still stands. Rule of 3 can potentially apply, hence it's not a big deal if the unit is slightly cheaper.
By that logic a Devastator with a Lascannon should cost less than a Tac Marine with a lascannon.
Wayniac wrote: BTW for the chaos side, at least the points leaks were confirmed in a Youtube video reviewing the mini-dex.
115 point Obliterators...
The Loyalist numbers were as well. It sucks that the Infiltrators are so expensive.
How much were you really expecting them to be? 12" bubble of "NOPE!" plus the ability to forward deploy and natural rolls of 6s result in a Wound?
22 points might be a bit high--but that's only because Intercessors and Tacticals are high to start with. Expecting Infiltrators to be cheap was a fool's errand.
All seriousness: this is GSC Neophytes v Guard Infantry Squads all over again. People kept trying to say Neophytes at 5ppm were "too expensive" when it was a GEQ model with +1LD, ability to DS, and the Bodyguard rule for nearby characters all rolled into one.
I love the intercessor rules but they are expensive, especially in an edition where fire-output is so important in regards to points efficiency. SM's are further hampered by their already high points cost and low model count. You can't see every unit in a bubble, their points have to reflect how they play in an army GW have never learned that.
Wouldn't it be funny if the box, at least as model design and rules goes, was done 2 or more years ago, and that is why the infiltration guys are costed the way they are aka they have cost matching the pre CA fix primaris ?
Karol wrote: Wouldn't it be funny if the box, at least as model design and rules goes, was done 2 or more years ago, and that is why the infiltration guys are costed the way they are aka they have cost matching the pre CA fix primaris ?
Considering that the reason that Imperial Knights and Dark Eldar weren't in Chapter Approved (which came out several months after those codexes) was because of how close the release was, I could see this being the case.
I like the look of the Infiltrators(Smoke Grenade Marine and Actual Firing a Pistol Correctly Marine are my favorites) and their rules, I just don't like their points. I will probably still get more once they get their full kit release.
if the only thing to dislike about a unit is the points cost at least you can buy some for casual play and for modeling and know eventually it'll proably be playable
Karol wrote: Wouldn't it be funny if the box, at least as model design and rules goes, was done 2 or more years ago, and that is why the infiltration guys are costed the way they are aka they have cost matching the pre CA fix primaris ?
Wouldn't be surprised, especially with how badly GW make rules. The only good rules GW can make are cheese lol
BrianDavion wrote: if the only thing to dislike about a unit is the points cost at least you can buy some for casual play and for modeling and know eventually it'll proably be playable
Oh for sure. And really, they aren't TERRIBLE for their price, I just can't fit them into my list at that points level and I am not going out of my way to do so when I have three perfectly usable Intercessor Squads. But if/when Infiltrators get a price cut, I will be replacing those three Intercessor Squads with Infiltrator Squads (to go with my other three squads of Intercessors).
At any rate, this release did introduce some more variety into my list, since I am replacing my second squad of Hellblasters with a squad of Eliminators and Suppressors.
The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.
Except when they're not, like maybe when you're playing into GSC/Aeldari.
This is why factoring stratagems into the numbers is completely misrepresenting their efficiency.
If your Oblits are garbage when you play Aeldari/GSC because they don't get propped up by stratagems, then you can't put them into a list. It's just bad list-building.
If you don't expect to ever face either of those factions, then sure, you can make a case for assumed stratagem success, but given both factions apparent popularity, it's completely disingenuous to claim they're 'better'.
edit: Furthermore, unless I'm misunderstanding something, relative efficiency vs number fielded is not an entirely useful metric when they jacked up the cost by 75%.
Relative efficiency per point spent is what matters, because that's what determines whether your points are going further than they previously were. For the price of 9 oldblits you can get just over 5 newblits. Thats a total of 36 shots and 27 wounds (oldblits) vs 30 shots and 20 wounds (newblits). Is T5 really worth 7 fewer wounds? In some cases, maybe. In others, definitely not. Given there was no change beyond number of shots, I think everyone can agree that 36 shots is better than 30 shots, right?
Then bait with another Strategem. It isn't my fault you can't make your opponent choose between Cacophony or ToT or VotLW.
Ahh the age old GIt GUD argument, lacking however any answer to the points apok made. Great.
Also who in the right mind would block VotLW when you have slaanesh oblits down. Common sense man.
BrianDavion wrote: if the only thing to dislike about a unit is the points cost at least you can buy some for casual play and for modeling and know eventually it'll proably be playable
I really need to see the GW definition of what casual actually suppose to be, because non of the list I have seen on this forum or polish forums, came close to being equal to the venguard stuff. Singular models may find a place in some marine lists, but venguard as an army just doesn't make sense. And it aint even the rules, although does sometimes don't help, it is the point costs. 20+pts for a bolter is worse then a GK strike. But I don't claim to be a master list designer. Maybe people who wrote the rules build some ultra soup lists that makes extensive use of venguard units. Great, I hope those people in the design team will post those list.
In fact I would love to see that for all w40k faction. Designers and play testers posting the armies they used and tested, maybe with some insight why they thought the stuff works. Not why it should work, but doesn't. I want to have stuff explained, so I can get a better understanding what GW may plan in the future.
Karol wrote: Wouldn't it be funny if the box, at least as model design and rules goes, was done 2 or more years ago, and that is why the infiltration guys are costed the way they are aka they have cost matching the pre CA fix primaris ?
That's exactly what I'm guessing. They do things so far out and either forget they have an update coming or are just too lazy to go back and double-check points after it comes out. Almost everything in the box is slightly overcosted but matches pre-CA points in most cases. Take the Venomcrawler for example. 130 points are definitely overcosted, but that's because CA gave daemon engines a drop in points across the board. GW just seemed to forget that Chapter Approved did this so never went back to say "Hey wait, we dropped points for these type of things in Chapter Approved".
Not to rehash this but this is a big reason why their devotion to print is so awful. They have such a lead time between print that things can and often do change in the middle and then we get stuck with what are basically rules from 6 months ago and waiting another 6 months or more for them to come around to update them, while during that time yet more stuff comes out without taking the changes into effect.
The driving factor in this improvement at 3 Obliterators is Endless Cacophony and other target-squad buffs. Your buffs are now effectively targeting another half-squad of Old Obliterators through the addition of the extra New Obliterator.
Except when they're not, like maybe when you're playing into GSC/Aeldari.
This is why factoring stratagems into the numbers is completely misrepresenting their efficiency.
If your Oblits are garbage when you play Aeldari/GSC because they don't get propped up by stratagems, then you can't put them into a list. It's just bad list-building.
If you don't expect to ever face either of those factions, then sure, you can make a case for assumed stratagem success, but given both factions apparent popularity, it's completely disingenuous to claim they're 'better'.
edit: Furthermore, unless I'm misunderstanding something, relative efficiency vs number fielded is not an entirely useful metric when they jacked up the cost by 75%.
Relative efficiency per point spent is what matters, because that's what determines whether your points are going further than they previously were. For the price of 9 oldblits you can get just over 5 newblits. Thats a total of 36 shots and 27 wounds (oldblits) vs 30 shots and 20 wounds (newblits). Is T5 really worth 7 fewer wounds? In some cases, maybe. In others, definitely not. Given there was no change beyond number of shots, I think everyone can agree that 36 shots is better than 30 shots, right?
Then bait with another Strategem. It isn't my fault you can't make your opponent choose between Cacophony or ToT or VotLW.
Ahh the age old GIt GUD argument, lacking however any answer to the points apok made. Great.
Also who in the right mind would block VotLW when you have slaanesh oblits down. Common sense man.
I'm literally the last person to use the Git Gud argument and you know that.
And yes you can bait the opponent into doing that. It's about prioritizing targets that are more likely to die from the VotLW unit firing at it.
Even if Cacophony gets denied...they spent 3-4 to deny you a 2CP one. Newblits don't need the Strategem, they simply rock with it.
If you have something like a castelan, or oblits your opponent will never use it on anything else, as those things like castellan standing up of oblits double taping is the biggest return for CP.
Karol wrote: If you have something like a castelan, or oblits your opponent will never use it on anything else, as those things like castellan standing up of oblits double taping is the biggest return for CP.
There is a couple Admech ones as well, but yeah normally the play with stop very few stratagems, baiting doesnt really work.
That's exactly what I'm guessing. They do things so far out and either forget they have an update coming or are just too lazy to go back and double-check points after it comes out. Almost everything in the box is slightly overcosted but matches pre-CA points in most cases. Take the Venomcrawler for example. 130 points are definitely overcosted, but that's because CA gave daemon engines a drop in points across the board. GW just seemed to forget that Chapter Approved did this so never went back to say "Hey wait, we dropped points for these type of things in Chapter Approved".
Did you actually expect them to put out an errata/FAQ a week before the thing is even published? Even if this was a digital publication would you really expect the publisher to have corrections out for something they have not published yet but which has been leaked?
Chill. They may or may not already have the points thing in hand but they are only going to errata/FAQ it after it gets published. Usually 2 weeks after.
That's exactly what I'm guessing. They do things so far out and either forget they have an update coming or are just too lazy to go back and double-check points after it comes out. Almost everything in the box is slightly overcosted but matches pre-CA points in most cases. Take the Venomcrawler for example. 130 points are definitely overcosted, but that's because CA gave daemon engines a drop in points across the board. GW just seemed to forget that Chapter Approved did this so never went back to say "Hey wait, we dropped points for these type of things in Chapter Approved".
Did you actually expect them to put out an errata/FAQ a week before the thing is even published? Even if this was a digital publication would you really expect the publisher to have corrections out for something they have not published yet but which has been leaked?
Chill. They may or may not already have the points thing in hand but they are only going to errata/FAQ it after it gets published. Usually 2 weeks after.
No but my point was print means they can't go back beforehand and remember they adjusted the costs.
On the bright side, the models look nice though some are less interesting, like the flying auto cannon guys, but I don't like inceptors much either. I don't like the mini codex feel, hope its easy to lock them into current marine armies. Though I only use primaris with deathwatch as my DA army and SW ones are all old marine stuff so don't want to add in the new hotness but the Deathwatch army is newish for me so doesn't matter as much to me.
I do love they added use for smoke grenades though, one of the things I wondered why they didn't use smoke for as long as I played from back in early 3rd ed so they tickles me. I doubt any of this will shake up any metas but it is interesting and could always get better. With a less flashy paint job I think they will look fine, well aside from the high top sneaker looking boots of the phobos armor. Now, if they'd just make a primaris light transport of some kind...ever..
All in all an alright box if you split it, which I am and getting some money off the final price. That said, I don't feel it was worth all the hype for it though seems a bit over the top for the offerings.
Did you actually expect them to put out an errata/FAQ a week before the thing is even published? Even if this was a digital publication would you really expect the publisher to have corrections out for something they have not published yet but which has been leaked?
Chill. They may or may not already have the points thing in hand but they are only going to errata/FAQ it after it gets published. Usually 2 weeks after.
I see this argument being brought forth time and time again, and I don't see how is it valid. If GW knows the rules months, if not years in advance, then changing something is that hard. You really don't need to wait 2 weeks for an FAQ or errata. Also a lot of time when people are told to "chill" the change or FAQ does not happen. What follows is the argument to chill more till the next big FAQ, then chill even more till the next CA, and if it still doesn't get change either people are told to wait for a codex or told that stuff doesn't work or doesn't get fixed, because GW is too busy with the new stuff.
From all we know the game was being tested years, before it was printed. This means they had years to notice that stuff doesn't work, years to proof read stuff or really hammer down how they want stuff to work. Hey maybe GW wants some of their stuff to be bad. From what I have been told, they have a history of nerfing armies like chaos.
Did you actually expect them to put out an errata/FAQ a week before the thing is even published? Even if this was a digital publication would you really expect the publisher to have corrections out for something they have not published yet but which has been leaked?
Chill. They may or may not already have the points thing in hand but they are only going to errata/FAQ it after it gets published. Usually 2 weeks after.
I see this argument being brought forth time and time again, and I don't see how is it valid. If GW knows the rules months, if not years in advance, then changing something is that hard. You really don't need to wait 2 weeks for an FAQ or errata. Also a lot of time when people are told to "chill" the change or FAQ does not happen. What follows is the argument to chill more till the next big FAQ, then chill even more till the next CA, and if it still doesn't get change either people are told to wait for a codex or told that stuff doesn't work or doesn't get fixed, because GW is too busy with the new stuff.
From all we know the game was being tested years, before it was printed. This means they had years to notice that stuff doesn't work, years to proof read stuff or really hammer down how they want stuff to work. Hey maybe GW wants some of their stuff to be bad. From what I have been told, they have a history of nerfing armies like chaos.
What I meant, in any event, was if they were working on Shadowspear, and Chapter Approved came out and changed points, they should have gone back to Shadowspear and readjusted the points to reflect how they were changing things in Chapter Approved (i.e. they dropped the cost of almost all daemon engines). Instead, it looks like they either forgot that chapter approved changed points and kept these at pre-CA levels, or just didn't care to go back and update them.
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