Nope, my fledgeling deathwatch project would be ebayed for a loss without question if I was forced into primaris marines. They are the exact opposite of every reason I thought deathwatch were a compelling faction.
Implying that TWC, DC, Ravenwing can't be made into Primaris?
I'd want more context for this - is it just embiggening the old marines? Do those groups now not exist on tabletop, but do in the lore? Do units like bikers, Vanguard Veterans and Company Veterans still exist in the game? Have they been cut from the lore?
I'd be fine with the first two - the models being bigger is hardly a problem to me.
If the rules for those units didn't exist, but did in the lore, and still had a rough analogue to port them over to, I'd be fine with that. Just take the closest analogue and play count-as. Other SM factions have had to do the same when they didn't have fancy unique units (before Deathwatch came out, people just used Sternguard Veterans).
If those units didn't exist in lore any more, than I'd have a problem.
So, the TL;DR answer - no, I don't think I'd have a problem.
It severely depends on HOW this change would be implemented, but most likely, yes I would keep all my stuff.
Although I have quite a collection of ALL CHAPTERs old Marines (see my Sig), the only Marine army I have is DW.
If GW "removes the flavor" meaning no more Chapter Tactics (which the DW equivalent is Mission Tactics), then yeah, I'd still play them as SIA would still be a thing.
If, however "removing all the flavor" means DW, BA, DA, SW & GKs are just vanilla Primaris, then obviously the answer would have to be No for me, since my models would no longer be valid in any sort of way (mostly StormVets)
Unless having a StormShield & StormBolter could "count-as" having 2Ws and a Bolt Rifle.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
Yes. When I started, Space Wolves were distinguished from every other non-Grey Knights Space Marine army by the colour of their armour. My "one day" Space Marine army consists of the Marines from the 2nd to 6th edition starter sets, so mostly Ultramarines with some Blood Angels and Dark Angels and Black Templars; I'd quite happily run them all simply as Space Marines.
As long as the background is there, I can still make them different by the tactics and wargear I use. If it's not a problem for Ancients and Napoleonics players, it's not a problem for me.
It means this primaris business is a contrived excuse to update the army that least needs an update to its model range in the entire game, again, with a huge new bevy of plastic kits. This time, with an additional stick to convince the cash cows to keep chowing down on those sprues in addition to the usual carrot: update now, or we will strongly imply but never outright say your army will be out of date!
As a Raven Guard player, I am kind of living with this right now.
The iconic Raven Guard unit, the lightning claw vanguard vet, is pretty much unplayable. Assault marines are even worse. Other fluffly models like landspeeders, and the 'Storm' flyers, are crippled by lack of invuln and no chapter tactics.
The new vanguard primaris will help a bit I guess, but if the point leaks are true they are going to be too expensive point wise to really be viable. I also abhor the naming conventions of the primaris models "Army of Ors" so much that I dont even like bringing them.
I wish we had our 7th edition special formations back. We dont need to be as killy as blood angels, but we should have other tricks, perhaps be able to have more movement options / special abilitys to assassinate characters.
I feel like my army is hamstrung by being balanced around Guilleman, which is incredibly frustrating.
I don't think we need to worry, my bet is that they'll release 3 waves of primaris, and then re-release codices for the various marine factions and include at least one chaptter specific primaris unit
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
I stopped collecting Space Wolves because of crap like Santa Logan, Thunderwolfy wolf Wolves and the new dancing Wolfen - compared to those abominations the Primaris are a breath of fresh air.
The iconic Raven Guard unit, the lightning claw vanguard vet, is pretty much unplayable. Assault marines are even worse. Other fluffly models like landspeeders, and the 'Storm' flyers, are crippled by lack of invuln and no chapter tactics.
Never understood why any of those were somehow signature Raven Guard units - now the new stealth snipers is something TRaven Guard should have had ages ago...
The problem, to me, with giving Wolf Guard, Deathwing, etc. profiles that are significantly different from "a Terminator" is that there isn't a good logical cutoff; why is a Wolf Guard Terminator or a Deathwing Terminator its own thing, but a Firedrake or a Gorgon Terminator isn't?
You could cut back on the endless proliferation of different Space Marines and write, say, two different Terminator statblocks (a loyalist one with loyalist loadouts and a Chaos one with Chaos loadouts), and say "We may sell ten different kits you can build these out of, but maybe you should treat them as alternate sculpts for these ten different units instead of writing ten different profiles so each box has distinct rules", but the irritating inverse of GW's refusal to write rules for anything they sell a model for is their insistence that every box of models has to have different rules from every other box.
At some point the game has to simulate a very wide range of things, from Grots to Titans, and there isn't enough time, space, or energy to be worrying about the subtle differences between slightly different versions of what is essentially the same unit. Especially when there are ten different Terminator kits and still no plastic Aspect Warriors.
AnomanderRake wrote: The problem, to me, with giving Wolf Guard, Deathwing, etc. profiles that are significantly different from "a Terminator" is that there isn't a good logical cutoff; why is a Wolf Guard Terminator or a Deathwing Terminator its own thing, but a Firedrake or a Gorgon Terminator isn't?
You could cut back on the endless proliferation of different Space Marines and write, say, two different Terminator statblocks (a loyalist one with loyalist loadouts and a Chaos one with Chaos loadouts), and say "We may sell ten different kits you can build these out of, but maybe you should treat them as alternate sculpts for these ten different units instead of writing ten different profiles so each box has distinct rules", but the irritating inverse of GW's refusal to write rules for anything they sell a model for is their insistence that every box of models has to have different rules from every other box.
At some point the game has to simulate a very wide range of things, from Grots to Titans, and there isn't enough time, space, or energy to be worrying about the subtle differences between slightly different versions of what is essentially the same unit. Especially when there are ten different Terminator kits and still no plastic Aspect Warriors.
Amishprn86 wrote: Whats the point then? Part of 40k is the flavor and customization of ones army. Why not remove all models and play with battle caps then?
You mean exploiting OP rules and min-maxing, eh?
I like the entitlement from some posters here, the 'vanilla' chapters (namely, successors, who constitute only 98% of all SM) already have rules so barebone and so few options to take compared to big 9 (especially with dumb keyword rulings banning them from taking parent chapter relics and officers) that any player taking these already has to make do with what flavour they can wring out of decorative bits and paint jobs instead of taking dumb wolfwolf ballerinas or pajama dangles for ridiculous rules that take dump on flavour and break verisimilitude. Maybe you should take notes before raising your noses? So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month
Valentine009 wrote: The new vanguard primaris will help a bit I guess, but if the point leaks are true they are going to be too expensive point wise to really be viable. I also abhor the naming conventions of the primaris models "Army of Ors" so much that I dont even like bringing them.
As opposed to devastators, all sorts of terminators, contemptors, servitors, predators, venators, fire raptors, vindicators, etc etc?
Also, reivers, hellblasters, astraeus and all primaris officers say hi.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Implying that TWC, DC, Ravenwing can't be made into Primaris?
I'd want more context for this - is it just embiggening the old marines? Do those groups now not exist on tabletop, but do in the lore? Do units like bikers, Vanguard Veterans and Company Veterans still exist in the game? Have they been cut from the lore?
I'd be fine with the first two - the models being bigger is hardly a problem to me.
If the rules for those units didn't exist, but did in the lore, and still had a rough analogue to port them over to, I'd be fine with that. Just take the closest analogue and play count-as. Other SM factions have had to do the same when they didn't have fancy unique units (before Deathwatch came out, people just used Sternguard Veterans).
If those units didn't exist in lore any more, than I'd have a problem.
So, the TL;DR answer - no, I don't think I'd have a problem.
Never implied that, just gave a hypothetical if GW did go that way.
Amishprn86 wrote: Whats the point then? Part of 40k is the flavor and customization of ones army. Why not remove all models and play with battle caps then?
You mean exploiting OP rules and min-maxing, eh?
I like the entitlement from some posters here, the 'vanilla' chapters (namely, successors, who constitute only 98% of all SM) already have rules so barebone and so few options to take compared to big 9 (especially with dumb keyword rulings banning them from taking parent chapter relics and officers) that any player taking these already has to make do with what flavour they can wring out of decorative bits and paint jobs instead of taking dumb wolfwolf ballerinas or pajama dangles for ridiculous rules that take dump on flavour and break verisimilitude. Maybe you should take notes before raising your noses? So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month
Valentine009 wrote: The new vanguard primaris will help a bit I guess, but if the point leaks are true they are going to be too expensive point wise to really be viable. I also abhor the naming conventions of the primaris models "Army of Ors" so much that I dont even like bringing them.
As opposed to devastators, all sorts of terminators, contemptors, servitors, predators, venators, fire raptors, vindicators, etc etc?
Also, reivers, hellblasters, astraeus and all primaris officers say hi.
What are you talking about? I dont even play marines b.c they are boring, removing everything but primaris would mean they are just as boring as bottle caps. 1 unit with 1 gun, 1 another unit with 1 another gun, no options, no melee, thats primaris marines.
I could care less if Tac marines go or stay, but removing specialist units that define the armies is another matter, WS without woves, DA without DC/Sang, DA without Terms/Bikes, thats silly, why have 1 SM army with 0 options in style? How is that entitlement?
It honestly sounds like you are the one with the problem "Wolfwold ballerinas or pajama dangles" whats that about?
I've played Death Guard from 5th edition onwards where it basically had no real flavorful rules (just like all other CSM) aside from the mark of Nurgle (which luckily was always the most useful one and helped every unit, unlike the other marks). So... I could live with that probably.
Irbis wrote: So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month
.
I am not sure you would want a Grey Knight flavoured book. If GW streamlined stuff and GK got access to normal marine stuff like stormshields and primaris, it would be nice. Even if it would mean losing those "characterful" options of nemezis weapons on 1A models or SB without any special ammo suddenly getting special ammo. I think I could survive such a paradigma shift. Non 40+pts termintors would be cool too.
Irbis wrote: So, yeah, let me play the Imperium's tiniest violin as someone who likes several obscure chapters that will never get that OP ""flavour"" totally-balanced-unit-of-the-month
.
I am not sure you would want a Grey Knight flavoured book. If GW streamlined stuff and GK got access to normal marine stuff like stormshields and primaris, it would be nice. Even if it would mean losing those "characterful" options of nemezis weapons on 1A models or SB without any special ammo suddenly getting special ammo. I think I could survive such a paradigma shift. Non 40+pts termintors would be cool too.
Psst. you can do that now. I remember a whole edition when everyone was proxying their existing marines as your guys. You can do the same thing if you really hate your rules. A power weapon/storm bolter GK terminator can be a power weapon/storm bolter Deathwatch terminator, you just have to say it is.
Psst. you can do that now. I remember a whole edition when everyone was proxying their existing marines as your guys. You can do the same thing if you really hate your rules. A power weapon/storm bolter GK terminator can be a power weapon/storm bolter Deathwatch terminator, you just have to say it is.
Am not sure why new GK players should care, why people playing longe then them had bad expiriance with their army. From what I have been told eldar were very good last edition, and an edition before that, and another edition before that too. Where is their nerf, where are the space marines nerfs, everyone told me marines were good last edition and they can field playable armies right now
And no I can't field GK termintors as DW, I asked at my store, nemezis power weapons look like one specific weapon DW can have making them invalid for WYSIWYG. And it wasn't even the question I asked, I asked if it could be possible, and the store owner pointed the illegality out to me.
Psst. you can do that now. I remember a whole edition when everyone was proxying their existing marines as your guys. You can do the same thing if you really hate your rules. A power weapon/storm bolter GK terminator can be a power weapon/storm bolter Deathwatch terminator, you just have to say it is.
Am not sure why new GK players should care, why people playing longe then them had bad expiriance with their army. From what I have been told eldar were very good last edition, and an edition before that, and another edition before that too. Where is their nerf, where are the space marines nerfs, everyone told me marines were good last edition and they can field playable armies right now
And no I can't field GK termintors as DW, I asked at my store, nemezis power weapons look like one specific weapon DW can have making them invalid for WYSIWYG. And it wasn't even the question I asked, I asked if it could be possible, and the store owner pointed the illegality out to me.
I'm sorry, that's right, you are shackled to the wall daily and forced to play all GK terminator lists against competitive eldar soup lists, lost and powerless to do anything but relay your tale of sadness and woe to those more fortunate. I forgot momentarily, carry on.
Well, hopefully all marines are replaced with primaris then, that'd probably solve everything.
I could care less if Tac marines go or stay, but removing specialist units that define the armies is another matter, WS without woves, DA without DC/Sang, DA without Terms/Bikes, thats silly, why have 1 SM army with 0 options in style? How is that entitlement?
NOT what was suggested - the entitlement is for several snowflake Chapters who absolutely Have to their pretend super special units whilst all the other Chapters - including other First Founding Chapters are simply not good enough for them. This is what has bloated the Marine range beyond belief and destroyed the chances of many armies getting updates.
NONE of the pretend snowflake units would not be present in one or more other Chapters so if you want Marines riding wolves, dogs, rabbits or whatever you should be able.
Teminators are Teminators - there is NO need for snwoflake rules for one special type of Terminator when all the others don't get them - AS stated in the relevant post - GOrgon Terminators and Firedrakes for other FIRST Founding Chapters examples. Just make a "terminator Squad" with all the options and mixed weapon load. Stop pretending that DA terminators are sooo super special.
You keep all the style but stop pandering to the entitled chapters.
I already play a Dark Angels successor chapter using the vanilla codex, in part because I actively dislike all the obnoxiously Flanderized special snowflake units and rules GW seems to think a chapter needs to not just be different-coloured Ultramarines. Does that answer the question?
bullyboy wrote: As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.
Back to Entitlement
You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.
- you don't loose rules - others gain them
Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Implying that TWC, DC, Ravenwing can't be made into Primaris?
I'd want more context for this - is it just embiggening the old marines? Do those groups now not exist on tabletop, but do in the lore? Do units like bikers, Vanguard Veterans and Company Veterans still exist in the game? Have they been cut from the lore?
I'd be fine with the first two - the models being bigger is hardly a problem to me.
If the rules for those units didn't exist, but did in the lore, and still had a rough analogue to port them over to, I'd be fine with that. Just take the closest analogue and play count-as. Other SM factions have had to do the same when they didn't have fancy unique units (before Deathwatch came out, people just used Sternguard Veterans).
If those units didn't exist in lore any more, than I'd have a problem.
So, the TL;DR answer - no, I don't think I'd have a problem.
Never implied that, just gave a hypothetical if GW did go that way.
I'm just after a bit more context about what you mean by the OP. Are we simply talking "all units get made bigger", or "the only units that exist are generic units, like Intercessors, Tacticals, Terminators, Hellblasters, etc etc". In both of those situations, I don't mind at all. However, when we include things like "Sanguinary Guard don't exist at all in the lore" or "there's no Terminator armoured units that can represent Deathwing/Gorgons/Firedrakes, and the lore hasn't updated to move all old Terminator equivalents into a Gravis armoured frame", then those are problems.
For what it's worth, I don't mind all the old Terminator units being Primarised and instead wearing Gravis Armour in new sculpts - same as I wouldn't mind if Ravenwing were mounted on Primaris jetbikes a la the new Custodes ones, or Sanguinary Guard were melee weapon Inceptors. I also don't mind if those units got their unique entries cut, and instead just fielded as the generic equivalents, plus a unique rule that comes from a faction keyword or stratagem.
Amishprn86 wrote:I could care less if Tac marines go or stay, but removing specialist units that define the armies is another matter, WS without woves, DA without DC/Sang, DA without Terms/Bikes, thats silly, why have 1 SM army with 0 options in style? How is that entitlement?
So what were Space Wolves before they had Thunderwolf Cavalry? Because they didn't always have them.
What were Blood Angels before they got Sanguinary Guard? Because I don't think they had them either.
What are the Deathwing and Ravenwing aside from different coloured and named Terminators and Bikers? Their shtick before was that they could be taken as a whole army of them, but nowadays, that's not a factor.
Why can't Deathwing be folded into the regular Terminator entry, but Firedrakes and Gorgon Terminators must be? Why can't Raven Guard have a jump pack honour guard unit, but Blood Angels can?
Remember when Ultramarines were the only ones able to have an honour guard? Now anyone can have them (except the Victrix Guard, which I also believe should be open to everyone). Why do those Chapters get an exemption?
If they NEED those units to be distinct, and they only have those units for arbitrary reasons, why should they be more distinct from the Ultramarines than Chapters like the Mortifactors or Black Dragons are?
bullyboy wrote: As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.
Back to Entitlement
You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.
- you don't loose rules - others gain them
Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.
Exactly. You still have the lore. You can still paint your guys in Ravenwing/Deathwing colours. However, you're just sharing those rules with other Chapters, who also have special formations just like yours.
This is what has bloated the Marine range beyond belief and destroyed the chances of many armies getting updates.
Speaking of entitled. that statement right there is the HEIGHT of entitlement. the idea that by focusing attention elsewhere, on more profitable lines, GW is taking away from updates "owed" to other armies. GWis a company they will make what SELLS. if an entire second line of space marines riding wolves with wolf clans and wolf sheilds with wolf hide head pieces outsells some xenos race. then guess what we're going to get? there's no sense of entitlement to say "yeah I like this, and I wanna buy it". Certainly far less entitlement then "HOW DARE GW MAKE THIS UNIT! GW SHOULD CATER TO ME!"
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
Absolutely. Primaris needs more units and more options, sure, but I'd welcome doing away the chapter specific stuff aside the visuals. Chapters were originally just lore and paint scheme and that was absolutely fine. There really is not need for all this flanderised nonsesnse and pointless restrictions for which chapters can have which units.
As long as I keep the options, if they are generalised for all chapters I have no problems. The problem is that by just counting only the named Special Characters a Codex with ALL space marines (Vanilla+BA/DA/SW/DW/GK) would be bigger than the Tyranid Codex.
Galas wrote: As long as I keep the options, if they are generalised for all chapters I have no problems. The problem is that by just counting only the named Special Characters a Codex with ALL space marines (Vanilla+BA/DA/SW/DW/GK) would be bigger than the Tyranid Codex.
You can really get rid of all the special characters except Guillima*. They're just Space Marines with some gear. Make the gear available to everybody (as relics, if needed) and then people who want can use those characters via normal character rules.
Galas wrote: As long as I keep the options, if they are generalised for all chapters I have no problems. The problem is that by just counting only the named Special Characters a Codex with ALL space marines (Vanilla+BA/DA/SW/DW/GK) would be bigger than the Tyranid Codex.
You can really get rid of all the special characters except Guillima*. They're just Space Marines with some gear. Make the gear available to everybody (as relics, if needed) and then people who want can use those characters via normal character rules.
I actually agree with making most special characters generic, and making the character creation rules much deeper. Why only Ultramarines can have a pilot or a scout sargeant? Or why only Dark Angels can have Terminator and Biker like chapter masters?
Of course GW won't ever do that because no models no rules but one can dream.
I actually agree with making most special characters generic, and making the character creation rules much deeper. Why only Ultramarines can have a pilot or a scout sargeant? Or why only Dark Angels can have Terminator and Biker like chapter masters?
Exactly. Instead of 'Sergeant Chronus' have 'Space Marine Tank Commander' etc.
I actually agree with making most special characters generic, and making the character creation rules much deeper. Why only Ultramarines can have a pilot or a scout sargeant? Or why only Dark Angels can have Terminator and Biker like chapter masters?
Exactly. Instead of 'Sergeant Chronus' have 'Space Marine Tank Commander' etc.
If I remember correctly in 3rd when the Codex was Codex: Ultramarines that was basically what they told you "This is Telion but is supposed to represent any Scout Sargeant in any Chapter you want". But we know how that ended.
the_scotsman wrote: Nope, my fledgeling deathwatch project would be ebayed for a loss without question if I was forced into primaris marines. They are the exact opposite of every reason I thought deathwatch were a compelling faction.
I actually agree with making most special characters generic, and making the character creation rules much deeper. Why only Ultramarines can have a pilot or a scout sargeant? Or why only Dark Angels can have Terminator and Biker like chapter masters?
Exactly. Instead of 'Sergeant Chronus' have 'Space Marine Tank Commander' etc.
If I remember correctly in 3rd when the Codex was Codex: Ultramarines that was basically what they told you "This is Telion but is supposed to represent any Scout Sargeant in any Chapter you want". But we know how that ended.
they could do it again with minimal harm IMHO. Ultramarine players aren't going to complain if Sgt Chronus is reduced to a side bar on the "Space Marine tank commander" entry
The prompt for the first post of this thread was as such:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
In other words, no, the what if indicated there wouldn't be Ravenwing, or Death Company, or Thunderwolf Cavalry. There would only be basic Primaris Marines squads. Nothing else. No one gets to use any "generic ravenwing". Just your basic primaris squads. There's no indication they exist in lore any more, either. It would be one thing to say "all chapters get access to a variant of the unique units" and all. That'd be weird, but okay sure why not-- I wouldn't be upset if every chapter got a super-apothecary like the BA do, for example. But removing them entirely? That's just narrowing the game and making it less interesting.
You two need to learn how to read before you whine about entitlement in such smug, arrogant manners. It's like some people come here specifically so they can look down on others rather than have productive conversations...
bullyboy wrote: As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.
Back to Entitlement
You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.
- you don't loose rules - others gain them
Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.
Mr Morden,
You have a zero-sum view of the situation. While I get design/SKU opportunity cost, GW has put out plenty of forces while maintaining some distinct Chapters. Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves have pretty much always had their own Codexes and models since 2nd Ed - heck I think that Space Wolves had the first actual Codex! The amount of variation from other Space Marines differed between editions, but their resilience should tell you something - folks like them! They look and play differently than the other Chapters, but from GW's and store owner's perspectives they can gain efficiencies from the commonalities with the mainstream Space Marines line.
In my local meta, Dark Angels are very popular (four out of forty players at our last local tourney), as are Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Why punish something successful?
bullyboy wrote: As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.
Back to Entitlement
You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.
- you don't loose rules - others gain them
Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.
Really hard to take you seriously. Also throwing the words "entitlement" and "snowflake" around makes you look like a jackass.
The Dark Angels are not Blood Angels, or Ultramarines, or Space Wolves etc. They have their own flavour along with rules to enhance that flavour. I didn't pick up the army to play generic space marines (what could be more boring?), I picked Dark Angels. I like that they have specialty units that other chapters don't get (Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Dark Talons, their characters), I wouldn't have it any other way. If it were removed, I'd probably stop playing them. Sounds like you should stick to chess.
I just wish all the flavour units were condensed into one SM codex, because BA/DA/SW aren't the only ones who should get special units and rules like that. Why should Iron Hands have to play by the Vanilla rules when Dark Angels don't have to, despite them both being non codex compliant?
Sir Heckington wrote: I just wish all the flavour units were condensed into one SM codex, because BA/DA/SW aren't the only ones who should get special units and rules like that. Why should Iron Hands have to play by the Vanilla rules when Dark Angels don't have to, despite them both being non codex compliant?
This is where Index Astartes will hopefully close the gap. Unfortunately, some chapters just don't have the same historical precedence as the big 3 non compliant chapters (BA, DA, SW). Templars used to be there but somehow dropped off the wagon. I like what they did for the Crimson Fists and hope that continues with other chapters.
bullyboy wrote: As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.
Back to Entitlement
You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.
- you don't loose rules - others gain them
Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.
Really hard to take you seriously. Also throwing the words "entitlement" and "snowflake" around makes you look like a jackass.
The Dark Angels are not Blood Angels, or Ultramarines, or Space Wolves etc. They have their own flavour along with rules to enhance that flavour. I didn't pick up the army to play generic space marines (what could be more boring?), I picked Dark Angels. I like that they have specialty units that other chapters don't get (Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Dark Talons, their characters), I wouldn't have it any other way. If it were removed, I'd probably stop playing them. Sounds like you should stick to chess.
So bascially "I want my Dark Angels to have loads of stuff even if others can't" - would you not say thats entitlement - pure and simple. Are you one of those many many Wolves,and Angels player who wants all that AND all the codex marine stuff as well?
I know about the fluff of all theose armies - spoiler alert - I have Dark Angel and Space Wolf armies - however I don't see why we need the continual focus on a handful of Chapters. Why do you think the fluff of all the other Chapters including other First Founding ones does not matter as much as YOUR chosen army - you are making my argument for me - thanks
AGAIN the fluff stays the same - more MARINE armies get a larger variety of stuff and GW does not have to make Tac Marine, Terminator etc rules but make them weaker as a tiny number of chapters somehow HAVE to have Tac Marines+1 or Terminators +1.
Name one of the "unique" Marine units that would not be present in at least one other Chapter.....
From another recent thread:
I've recently been looking into building an Iron Hands army, and one part about them intrigued me, and that was their use of Terminators as squad sergeants. Now, this is currently impossible outside of space wolves from what I can tell, how would people feel if Tactical/Assault/Devastators could take Terminators as squad sergeants
But there's another chapter that also does that, The Iron Hands.
Space Wolves get an exception because they're just weird like that, but it makes no real sense in the fluff or has any impact on the game.
Why is the Fluff important to some people for Space Wolves but does not matter for Iron Hands.
You still haven't actually bothered reading the opening prompt.
There's a difference between "I don't want my options taken away" and "I don't want my options given to others". Many of the people here wouldn't mind, or at least would only be mildly bothered, if generic versions of unique units were given as long as they could still have the unique units. What they are hating is the idea, as mentioned in the original post, of losing the options entirely.
You still haven't actually bothered reading the opening prompt.
There's a difference between "I don't want my options taken away" and "I don't want my options given to others". Many of the people here wouldn't mind, or at least would only be mildly bothered, if generic versions of unique units were given as long as they could still have the unique units. What they are hating is the idea, as mentioned in the original post, of losing the options entirely.
Yeah IDGAF at all if all space marines got units with deathwatch SIA and deathwatch weapons. What I do care about is if I lose the ability to customize each member of my squad with his own individual weapon loadout, and instead I am now locked into the framework of
Your Fortis Pattern Kill Teams Must Have Five Intercessors
Each Intercessor Must Be Armed With One Of Three Very Similar Boltguns
You May Add One Aggressor
The Aggressor May Have One Of Two Very Similar Loadouts
Etc, etc etc.
You go from every guy having 100+ different options to every guy having 2-3 different options: This is not the army I signed up for.
you go from every guy in my codex having 100+ different options to every guy in every codex having 100+ different options: Great, more opportunity for other people to make their stuff as personalized as they want it!
bullyboy wrote: As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.
Back to Entitlement
You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.
- you don't loose rules - others gain them
Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.
Mr Morden,
You have a zero-sum view of the situation. While I get design/SKU opportunity cost, GW has put out plenty of forces while maintaining some distinct Chapters. Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves have pretty much always had their own Codexes and models since 2nd Ed - heck I think that Space Wolves had the first actual Codex! The amount of variation from other Space Marines differed between editions, but their resilience should tell you something - folks like them! They look and play differently than the other Chapters, but from GW's and store owner's perspectives they can gain efficiencies from the commonalities with the mainstream Space Marines line.
In my local meta, Dark Angels are very popular (four out of forty players at our last local tourney), as are Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Why punish something successful?
Indeed, the fact is Space Marines account for 40% (or more) of games workshop total sales. that's a HUUGE percentage when you consider it includes the entire fantasy and 40k line up over all. they're the cash cow. consider Coca Cola. they produce a number of drinks, focusing purely on soft drinks they produce Coke, Barq's Rootbeer, Sprite, Fresca, and proably some other stuff I'm missing.
well, Coke produces a number of coke varients, coke, diet coke, coke zero, vanilla coke, cherry coke, a whole wackton of diet coke flavors. Why? because as their flagship best selling brand they can make a profit off it.
So bascially "I want my Dark Angels to have loads of stuff even if others can't" - would you not say thats entitlement - pure and simple. Are you one of those many many Wolves,and Angels player who wants all that AND all the codex marine stuff as well?
I know about the fluff of all theose armies - spoiler alert - I have Dark Angel and Space Wolf armies - however I don't see why we need the continual focus on a handful of Chapters. Why do you think the fluff of all the other Chapters including other First Founding ones does not matter as much as YOUR chosen army - you are making my argument for me - thanks
AGAIN the fluff stays the same - more MARINE armies get a larger variety of stuff and GW does not have to make Tac Marine, Terminator etc rules but make them weaker as a tiny number of chapters somehow HAVE to have Tac Marines+1 or Terminators +1.
Name one of the "unique" Marine units that would not be present in at least one other Chapter.....
How about Thunderwolf cavalry? Thats completely unique to the Space Wolves, as until recently they didnt even have a single successor chapter. Or how about the Darkshroud for the Dark Angels, a unique landspeeder that has a literal part of the Dark Angel homeworld attatched to it. What use would these units be to a non DA or SW player? Heck how would you even explain it lore wise for say Ultra marines to be riding around on wolves with a piece of caliban?
If anything the other First Founding chapters should get their own unique models as well, something that allows them to be unique and feel different. If I didnt have units like Fallen, Darkshroud, Dark talon, Deathwing Knights etc, I would have never played Dark Angels, bought the codex, or invested any money into them. Why do you think its so crazy that people who were marketed a semi unique army, want the army they invested in, to remain semi unique. Its not just having "different rules" for some model types, its also about having unique sculpts, and lore, that make an army actually feel like its own thing. If Games Workshop removes the unique rules for units, what incentive do they have to keep producing the unique looking models? Its more expensive, and in terms of gameplay they are no different, so they would likely just standardize everything to a single sculpt with maybe an upgrade sprue. After all if this wasnt the case, there would be no reason Salamanders for example would be forced to use generic ultra marine termies that are just painted up in a different colour scheme.
Hell I would be perfectly happy if other space marine factions had similar rules as say ravenwing bikers (would make for a fun time for White Scar players eh?), but when you advocate for everything to be generic, than GW has no incentive to spend money making specialized looking units, when they know only a small % of the market is going to ever use them. Why have 10 terminator sculpts where only 10% of the market uses 1 sculpt each, but they all play and act the same, when you can just have a single sculpt. Lack of return on investment would pressure them to drop the more unique sculpts, until eventually everyone has to use the same thing. Thats why people react negatively to posts like these. Not because they dont want others to share the fun of these units, but because of the valid fear of these unique models losing their value in GW eyes and thus being squatted.
Ok, so you want a space marine force that equally has access to black knights, TWC, sanguinary guard, Deathwing knights, and literally every other option in all of the current SM books? Bloat much?
What a ridiculous idea.
Still don't understand your entitled point. GW has given options for my army and taken away others. I embrace that. Where do you find me saying I want DA options and everything else?
bullyboy wrote: Ok, so you want a space marine force that equally has access to black knights, TWC, sanguinary guard, Deathwing knights, and literally every other option in all of the current SM books? Bloat much?
What a ridiculous idea.
I really don't see why other chapters couldn't have Elite Bikers, Jump Pack Honour Guard or Terminator Honour Guard. Because aside the name, that's what those things are. Granted, beast riding Space Marines might be somewhat rarer, but it is hard to believe that SW would be the only chapter to do it.
If the lines were reduced to generic units (Tacticals, Devastators, Suppresors, Bikers, etc.) And the difference was in paint jobs, lore and (maybe) chapter-type rules, it wouldn’t bother me at all. If only primaris survived the purge, wouldn’t much bother me with - I’d like to actually see the mind-boggling options cut down to an either-or level loadout.
These options not being universal for marines bother me:
-Melta guns on assult marines
-Heavy flamer in tactical squad
-Inferno pistols and hand flamers on sergeants
-Plasma cannon on terminator
-baal predators
Look at what black templars did. We invented land raider crusader and instantly shared the tech to all other chapters. This does not bother templar players, yet the very thought of sharing options seems to drive current special chapter players furious
Gitdakka wrote: These options not being universal for marines bother me:
-Melta guns on assult marines
-Heavy flamer in tactical squad
-Inferno pistols and hand flamers on sergeants
-Plasma cannon on terminator
-baal predators
Look at what black templars did. We invented land raider crusader and instantly shared the tech to all other chapters. This does not bother templar players, yet the very thought of sharing options seems to drive current special chapter players furious
There was also briefly a time when all chapters could have Emperor's Champions. I miss that, it was cool. The lore was that it was a tradition that originated with the Templars, but had spread to other chapters.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, so you want a space marine force that equally has access to black knights, TWC, sanguinary guard, Deathwing knights, and literally every other option in all of the current SM books? Bloat much?
What a ridiculous idea.
Still don't understand your entitled point. GW has given options for my army and taken away others. I embrace that. Where do you find me saying I want DA options and everything else?
Because thats exactly what gets asked as soon as anything new comes out for Marines - where is the DA/SW/DA - "why don;t we get it" - plus everything else.
Bloat is having mutiple codexes with tiny rule differences for the majority of the units and a few flanderised units that would be present in other codexes - Marines riding other creaures - fine, Wulfen - Black Dragons and other Chapters have mutants.
You cut down on the bloat by not having various pretend unique units.
You have Tac Marines with all the options - so chainswords, weapon load outs - eveything, special rule options
You Have Terminators with all the options - not half a dozen identikit units with a special rule or two and a single different weapon.
Which DA/SW/BA special rules could not be folded into either expandedChaper tactics or as a unit option? Unfortunately we have to currently suffer the tyrany of pandering to three Chapters - DA/SW/BA and IMO its hurting not only other options but making those Chapters look pathetic.
@ Melissa - the OP's question is not whats happening, unfortunately at the moment we have the worst of all worlds - Gw has three entire seperate production efforts focussed on Marines, each wth multiple sub facions - 30k marines, 40k marines and Primaris and its a bloated mess.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
I'd be far more excited about Space Marines if they ditched the color-coded-51-flavors-special rules and went back to basics.
Mr Morden wrote: @ Melissa - the OP's question is not whats happening
It's the topic of discussion.
All you're doing is making strawman arguments and it's frankly borderline trolling. The original post posed a "what if" question, don't pretend like people are answering some other question just so you can be a snob and feel better than them.
Because thats exactly what gets asked as soon as anything new comes out for Marines - where is the DA/SW/DA - "why don;t we get it" - plus everything else.
Bloat is having mutiple codexes with tiny rule differences for the majority of the units and a few flanderised units that would be present in other codexes - Marines riding other creaures - fine, Wulfen - Black Dragons and other Chapters have mutants.
You cut down on the bloat by not having various pretend unique units.
You have Tac Marines with all the options - so chainswords, weapon load outs - eveything, special rule options You Have Terminators with all the options - not half a dozen identikit units with a special rule or two and a single different weapon.
Which DA/SW/BA special rules could not be folded into either expandedChaper tactics or as a unit option? Unfortunately we have to currently suffer the tyrany of pandering to three Chapters - DA/SW/BA and IMO its hurting not only other options but making those Chapters look pathetic.
So you want everyone playing a space marine chapter to use the exact same unit. Everyone buys the same terminator box. How many sprues would that terminator box need though to have all the weapon options, as well as aesthetics represented by all the current terminator lines? Ya not realistic. Even if it did include every weapon option available, you and I both know it wouldnt include all the unique aesthetics. Aesthetics are half the reason anyone buys anything. I buy a box of Deathwing Knights because they look like cool crusader scifi knights, not because they have a unique power mace that I dont want other chapters to have. Your solution would remove the reason I and many others even buy these kits.
P.S. You single out DA/SW/BA, but GK and DW players ask the same question every time. Before they got regulated to the annuals of history Black Templar players would do the same thing. They got absorbed by the main codex though. Remind me, when was the last time anything for the black templar line got made? You cant even buy an upgrade sprue to get the unique appearance or aesthetics. But why stop with space marines? Whats the point of having Deathguard and Thousand Sons as independent armies. Get rid of Blightlord terminators, everyone can just use normal chaos terminators instead, just give em the same weapon options, that's all that's need eh? Hell if you stretched enough you could apply the same argument to chaos daemons, after all bloodthirsters, fate weavers and greater unclean ones are all just greater daemons right? Just have one greater daemon kit with all the weapon options, thats sure to be just as appealing! Not trying to be rude, but you act like the existence of unique models or rules that add variation and flavour to the game, some how hurt it. If you dropped BA/DA/SW/GK/DW, Thousand Sons, Deathguard, all the various chaos daemons, you drop a large chunk of the game.
I'd love to see Necrons, Tau, or Orks get 1 core and 5 separate Dynasty/Sept/Kulture books, similar to Space Marines gamine a corebook, and SW/DW/DA/BA/GK. SpaceMarines should be one faction book, with each of those being a sub faction, just like the rest of us. This applies to AM as well, unless everyone is pushing for each main Regiment to get their own Codex.
Either give each faction the same diversity of books, like SM, or reign them back to one book.
I sure as hell don't want non-ultramarine space marine armies to go the same way as non-cadian guard have. I'd rather just have the non-cadians back.
Amen. Some of those old guard models were awesome. Chances are I'd be playing IG if the Valhallan line or Death Korps lines of models were still around.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blndmage wrote: I'd love to see Necrons, Tau, or Orks get 1 core and 5 separate Dynasty/Sept/Kulture books, similar to Space Marines gamine a corebook, and SW/DW/DA/BA/GK. SpaceMarines should be one faction book, with each of those being a sub faction, just like the rest of us. This applies to AM as well, unless everyone is pushing for each main Regiment to get their own Codex.
Either give each faction the same diversity of books, like SM, or reign them back to one book.
We should demand more options for Xenos. A Tau sub-faction would be awesome. We shouldnt trash entire armies like Black templar or old IG regiments were, just because Xenos lacks options. The variety of models and flavours available for power armour factions should be what we strive for in general for all factions, but for GW to do that, we need to vote with our wallets and show them that Xenos is just as popular as everything else. Unless sales numbers climb though, Xenos will continue to remain mono and generic for each race.
You cut down on the bloat by not having various pretend unique units.
OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.
It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?
We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?
The tragedy here is, Dawn of War 2's campaign made me rethink my opinion on Marines enough to consider playing them, and I started the BA army with the start of this edition. If they took Morden's advice, I'd sell the BA army off and go back to playing Orks and Sisters, cause that would take everything interesting out of Marines and turn them in to the same boring blandness that I used to think they were.
Melissia wrote: The tragedy here is, Dawn of War 2's campaign made me rethink my opinion on Marines enough to consider playing them, and I started the BA army with the start of this edition. If they took Morden's advice, I'd sell the BA army off and go back to playing Orks and Sisters, cause that would take everything interesting out of Marines and turn them in to the same boring blandness that I used to think they were.
And thats the point. People just needs to accept that marines sell. They sell enough to warrant all of that variety. And it is not like other factions don't receive things. Before all of this Primaris waves with my Dark Angels I received new stuff at the same rate than many other factions. I cared as much about the new Space Wolves or Deathwatch stuff as an Ork or a Necron player.
Heck with my Tau I received more things in 6th and 7th than with my Dark Angels.
I never trust anybody that instead of asking for more for them, ask for less to others. Thats a very petty way of looking at things. Is like people that complains that other jobs have too many privileges instead of asking for better labour rights for themselves.
I just find the whole thing hilarious. Start with a question..."would you....", and when the answer doesn't match their ideal "you're an entitled snowflake!!". Classic.
The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?
TangoTwoBravo wrote: The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?
What even prompted this thread?
I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.
Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?
It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?
What even prompted this thread?
Currently in the marine codex black templars have crusader squads. It's unique for them, no other chapter can take them. If blood angels were enrolled into the codex, they could keep death company as a similar unique unit. Honour guard with jp could just be universal unit. Special characters remain. Baal predator possibly unique or universal. Let the BA keep their CA, a relique or two and there we go. Let everyone take hand flamers and other little wargear you have because that is not flavour, that is just weird that only BA can take them. You lost nothing, standard marine players gain more freedom of choice and we save ourself one book.
I have had a Space Wolves army since 1992, shortly before they got the first "special snowflake" army list (a couple of years, and a whole edition, before anyone else ). I still think it's not really necessary. I'd do one single Codex: Adeptus Astartes, or at most split it like the Horus heresy books - Codex: Adeptus Astartes and Codex Adaptus Astartes: Space Marine Chapters.
The main army list would just be all the standard Space Marine units - Tactical Marines, intercessors, Scouts, terminators, Captains, Librarians, etc. The Chapter-specific bits would be the Chapter tactics, Chapter-specific Relics, Stratagems, special rules, Warlord Traits, Psychic powers, that sort of thing. not too much; two or three per Chapter. Also, it would have the changes required from the main army list. Again, not too much - a page of required rules tweaks and a new datasheet or two.
For example, Space Wolves:
Assault Squads can have up to 15 models, Devastator squads only five. Tactical Squads may not take a heavy weapon, but can have a second special weapon instead. All models may be equipped with close combat weapons and up to two may have a power sword, axe, fist and/or plasma pistol.
All squad sergeants may be equipped with Terminator armour (alternatively, include Wolf Guard battle Leader as a datasheet along with Thunderwolf Cavalry)
Dark Angels:
Don't really need much - additional wargear options for Deathwing terminators, perhaps extra rules for Bike and Land Speeder units to represent Ravenwing and datasheets for their planes and fancy Land Speeder.
Blood Angels:
Death company datasheet, and allow Command Squads and Honour Guard to take jump packs.
Black Templars:
Either include a new datasheet for the mixed squad of Tactical marines and Scouts or come up with a rule to let you take a Tactical Squad, a Scout Squad and combine the two
Ultramarines:
Tyrannic War veterans - either a new datasheet or a tweak to the Sternguard and Vanguard veteran squads.
and likewise for any other Chapters that might warrant rules of their own.
Deathwatch don't need a whole Codex - just say that a Deathwatch Kill Team is made up of three to ten Space marines chosen from any non-Character Infantry datasheet, each of which can be from any Chapter. Include some special wargear options and job's a good 'un. Only Grey Knights need their own full army list.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?
What even prompted this thread?
I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.
Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?
It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.
Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"
With Primaris Land Speeders and Bikes, yes. I would prefer jet bikes like Vertus Praetors instead normal bikes. Maybe some Primaris jump pack close combat unit and AT tanks?
Primaris are good idea but not so good implementation. Suppressors would be better without grav chutes. New eliminators are good looking.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?
What even prompted this thread?
I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.
Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?
It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.
Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"
Except thats not what happened. Other stuff sells - IF you make and market it.
What we have had for decades is:
We (GW) are a Grocery that sells a variety of fruit except actually we sell 20 different kinds of Apples, only lalk about apples and market that we sell apples - yeah we sell bananas, pears and other fruit but only grudgingly and if we have to - certinaly don't market it. Wierdly enough we sell mostly..........apples - who would have thought it.
Now they are selling new pears and cherries and all sorts of things but still pushing apples and still those who like Apples demand that Apples are the most improtant fruit adn only their fruit matters.
OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.
It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?
We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?
Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.
If you are conversant with background of the myriad of Chapters you will know that most so called unique units are NOT and all this pretend variety thats confimed to a few chapters happens for no GOOD reason
read this excellent post form Andrew and tell me what YOU are missing from your army if this was implemented? The Fluuf is all there - all the units are there - what exactly are you not getting that you need for your special army?
Spoiler:
I have had a Space Wolves army since 1992, shortly before they got the first "special snowflake" army list (a couple of years, and a whole edition, before anyone else ). I still think it's not really necessary. I'd do one single Codex: Adeptus Astartes, or at most split it like the Horus heresy books - Codex: Adeptus Astartes and Codex Adaptus Astartes: Space Marine Chapters.
The main army list would just be all the standard Space Marine units - Tactical Marines, intercessors, Scouts, terminators, Captains, Librarians, etc. The Chapter-specific bits would be the Chapter tactics, Chapter-specific Relics, Stratagems, special rules, Warlord Traits, Psychic powers, that sort of thing. not too much; two or three per Chapter. Also, it would have the changes required from the main army list. Again, not too much - a page of required rules tweaks and a new datasheet or two.
For example, Space Wolves:
Assault Squads can have up to 15 models, Devastator squads only five. Tactical Squads may not take a heavy weapon, but can have a second special weapon instead. All models may be equipped with close combat weapons and up to two may have a power sword, axe, fist and/or plasma pistol.
All squad sergeants may be equipped with Terminator armour (alternatively, include Wolf Guard battle Leader as a datasheet along with Thunderwolf Cavalry)
Dark Angels:
Don't really need much - additional wargear options for Deathwing terminators, perhaps extra rules for Bike and Land Speeder units to represent Ravenwing and datasheets for their planes and fancy Land Speeder.
Blood Angels:
Death company datasheet, and allow Command Squads and Honour Guard to take jump packs.
Black Templars:
Either include a new datasheet for the mixed squad of Tactical marines and Scouts or come up with a rule to let you take a Tactical Squad, a Scout Squad and combine the two
Ultramarines:
Tyrannic War veterans - either a new datasheet or a tweak to the Sternguard and Vanguard veteran squads.
and likewise for any other Chapters that might warrant rules of their own.
Deathwatch don't need a whole Codex - just say that a Deathwatch Kill Team is made up of three to ten Space marines chosen from any non-Character Infantry datasheet, each of which can be from any Chapter. Include some special wargear options and job's a good 'un. Only Grey Knights need their own full army list.
I have had a Space Wolves army since 1992, shortly before they got the first "special snowflake" army list (a couple of years, and a whole edition, before anyone else ). I still think it's not really necessary. I'd do one single Codex: Adeptus Astartes, or at most split it like the Horus heresy books - Codex: Adeptus Astartes and Codex Adaptus Astartes: Space Marine Chapters.
The main army list would just be all the standard Space Marine units - Tactical Marines, intercessors, Scouts, terminators, Captains, Librarians, etc. The Chapter-specific bits would be the Chapter tactics, Chapter-specific Relics, Stratagems, special rules, Warlord Traits, Psychic powers, that sort of thing. not too much; two or three per Chapter. Also, it would have the changes required from the main army list. Again, not too much - a page of required rules tweaks and a new datasheet or two.
For example, Space Wolves:
Assault Squads can have up to 15 models, Devastator squads only five. Tactical Squads may not take a heavy weapon, but can have a second special weapon instead. All models may be equipped with close combat weapons and up to two may have a power sword, axe, fist and/or plasma pistol.
All squad sergeants may be equipped with Terminator armour (alternatively, include Wolf Guard battle Leader as a datasheet along with Thunderwolf Cavalry)
Dark Angels:
Don't really need much - additional wargear options for Deathwing terminators, perhaps extra rules for Bike and Land Speeder units to represent Ravenwing and datasheets for their planes and fancy Land Speeder.
Blood Angels:
Death company datasheet, and allow Command Squads and Honour Guard to take jump packs.
Black Templars:
Either include a new datasheet for the mixed squad of Tactical marines and Scouts or come up with a rule to let you take a Tactical Squad, a Scout Squad and combine the two
Ultramarines:
Tyrannic War veterans - either a new datasheet or a tweak to the Sternguard and Vanguard veteran squads.
and likewise for any other Chapters that might warrant rules of their own.
Deathwatch don't need a whole Codex - just say that a Deathwatch Kill Team is made up of three to ten Space marines chosen from any non-Character Infantry datasheet, each of which can be from any Chapter. Include some special wargear options and job's a good 'un. Only Grey Knights need their own full army list.
Well, you just described Index Imperium 1, which was a great way to reset the armies at the dawn of 8th Edition. The subsequent DA, BA, SW, DW and GK Codexes built on that great Index. The game of 40K is quite rich in background and forces, why restrict ourselves to one book for Space Marines?
The Chapters that have their own books have a number of characteristics that warrant their having their own books. First, they are non-Codex compliant and have their own unique structures. Second, they have distinct play styles derived from structure, stratagems, characters, relics and chapter tactics. Thirdly, they have enough established lore along with continued development to make their book compelling for the person collecting the army. I recognize that not everybody finds the Dark Angels compelling. That's cool. We might like different music as well. Ultimately its up to the market to drive GW's decision-making on separate books/models. It would seem that the demand is there. While there is an opportunity cost, I'm not sure how it hurts other people that the Dark Angels have their own book. You don't need to buy it if you don't want to, and what is the Dark Angel's book preventing?
I have sympathy for folks that had a unique Codex at some point and then lost it. What led to the Black Templars getting rolled back into the Space Marines book? I'm not sure. There was a trend with various Editions after 2nd to push other chapters such as Salamanders (Codex Armageddon) and the Black Templars. They would qualify by my own (arguable and non-established) criteria above. Perhaps not enough people found them compelling enough? Lore and "fluff" is funny that way - you can't bottle it. You can't quantify it. And its really important.
At least many other Chapters have distinction within the larger Space Marines Codex. It's not a bad compromise.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?
What even prompted this thread?
I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.
Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?
It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.
Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"
Except thats not what happened. Other stuff sells - IF you make and market it.
What we have had for decades is:
We (GW) are a Grocery that sells a variety of fruit except actually we sell 20 different kinds of Apples, only lalk about apples and market that we sell apples - yeah we sell bananas, pears and other fruit but only grudgingly and if we have to - certinaly don't market it. Wierdly enough we sell mostly..........apples - who would have thought it.
Now they are selling new pears and cherries and all sorts of things but still pushing apples and still those who like Apples demand that Apples are the most improtant fruit adn only their fruit matters.
Yes because that is how a business operates. You produce something and only hope it sells due to the fact you produced a lot of it. Get real mate. The space marine line up was not always this big and varied, it became this way because of continued demand and sales. GW will invest in producing models that are most demanded, and thus will provide the greatest ROI. Xenos lineups will be expanded if they are demanded sufficiently and have the sales to back up said demands. GSC just got a whole wack of new toys, mainly cause of the recent popularity and sales figures of Nids and cults. GW is a business, they will produce what sells best, and they will invest in the avenues that feature the greatest demand and potential returns.
OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.
It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?
We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?
Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.
If you are conversant with background of the myriad of Chapters you will know that most so called unique units are NOT and all this pretend variety thats confimed to a few chapters happens for no GOOD reason
read this excellent post form Andrew and tell me what YOU are missing from your army if this was implemented? The Fluuf is all there - all the units are there - what exactly are you not getting that you need for your special army?
How about the models themselves? IG players can still use their old regimental models, but they sure as hell cant buy new ones cause GW only makes Cadians and Catachan now. Black Templar players havent got a model that is distinctly Black Templar in ages, and they dont even have an upgrade sprue to make new space marine releases look like the rest of their army.
Strawman's the only kind of argument you've been making this entire thread, though.
Not really - I keep asking people what exactly they are loosing and I get hyerbole about destroying thier entire collection and that theri armies will be reduced to 3 tyes of Marines and somehwo their entire fluff will be lost.
The reality is that if the rules changed for the SW, BA, and DA again (and they have changed the model range virtually every edition) to what has been proposed nothing would be lost. No one has yet shown by allowing more options in the say terminator dataslate how that is a mortal wound to the intergrity and uniqueness of the Dark Angels - I thought this was about the fluff which would be unchanged..
There would be all the relevant options in the base units dataslate or the Chapter tactics rules
All the fluff would be exactly the same - the only different is that other Chapters, including other First Founding could be more representative of their own fluff - I donlt understand why certain people are so defensive of their own chosen Chapters and consquenetly so dissmissive of all the others.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?
What even prompted this thread?
I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.
Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?
It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.
Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"
Except thats not what happened. Other stuff sells - IF you make and market it.
What we have had for decades is:
We (GW) are a Grocery that sells a variety of fruit except actually we sell 20 different kinds of Apples, only lalk about apples and market that we sell apples - yeah we sell bananas, pears and other fruit but only grudgingly and if we have to - certinaly don't market it. Wierdly enough we sell mostly..........apples - who would have thought it.
Now they are selling new pears and cherries and all sorts of things but still pushing apples and still those who like Apples demand that Apples are the most improtant fruit adn only their fruit matters.
Yes because that is how a business operates. You produce something and only hope it sells due to the fact you produced a lot of it. Get real mate. The space marine line up was not always this big and varied, it became this way because of continued demand and sales. GW will invest in producing models that are most demanded, and thus will provide the greatest ROI. Xenos lineups will be expanded if they are demanded sufficiently and have the sales to back up said demands. GSC just got a whole wack of new toys, mainly cause of the recent popularity and sales figures of Nids and cults. GW is a business, they will produce what sells best, and they will invest in the avenues that feature the greatest demand and potential returns.
OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.
It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?
We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?
Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.
If you are conversant with background of the myriad of Chapters you will know that most so called unique units are NOT and all this pretend variety thats confimed to a few chapters happens for no GOOD reason
read this excellent post form Andrew and tell me what YOU are missing from your army if this was implemented? The Fluuf is all there - all the units are there - what exactly are you not getting that you need for your special army?
How about the models themselves? IG players can still use their old regimental models, but they sure as hell cant buy new ones cause GW only makes Cadians and Catachan now. Black Templar players havent got a model that is distinctly Black Templar in ages, and they dont even have an upgrade sprue to make new space marine releases look like the rest of their army.
Strangely enough I am not your "Mate" - never met you.
If you are an apple shop thats fine but if your a greengrocer then you are not maximising your sales - now they are starting to do so and and selling something other than apples.
Third time - WHAT units would your super special army loose by the suggested rules? The Fluff remains the same, so what else are you so angry about?
If its just I want my sub faction army to have lots of models at everyone lese's expense - well that says it all
You cut down on the bloat by not having various pretend unique units.
OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.
It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?
We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?
As is, there really isn't enough unique about the Angels armies that stops them from being consolidated. Every Chapter gets 3-4 unique units, bam done. That makes it FAR easier to balance.
Hell I'd consolidate the Space Wolves too if GW didn't add a bunch of unnecessary units.
....Interesting how you seem to have completely abandoned the topic of the thread here.
You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP.
The OP is "what would happen if all existing marine dexes were replaced with PRIMARIS MARINES"
stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?
stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?
Veteran Primaris already exist and those other things will eventually exist too.
the_scotsman wrote: ....Interesting how you seem to have completely abandoned the topic of the thread here.
You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP.
The OP is "what would happen if all existing marine dexes were replaced with PRIMARIS MARINES"
stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?
However to keep you happy I will start another, I assume you will do the same in that thread and keep it for relevant information on Shadow Spear and Vigilius
Strangely enough I am not your "Mate" - never met you.
If you are an apple shop thats fine but if your a greengrocer then you are not maximising your sales - now they are starting to do so and and selling something other than apples.
Third time - WHAT units would your super special army loose by the suggested rules? The Fluff remains the same, so what else are you so angry about?
If its just I want my sub faction army to have lots of models at everyone lese's expense - well that says it all
You clearly havent spoken to many Canadians than if you find it strange to be called mate
You keep making this grocery analogy, but it just doesnt work here. GW produces models. The models they produce are those that sell well. New models are developed based on where the greatest potential returns are. Models that dont sell well, never get touched. The reason the Dark Eldar models suck so much, isnt cause GW hates Dark Eldar players, but because there is insufficent demand to warrant them spending money modernizing the line. If there are no returns, you dont invest in that avenue. BA/SW/DA/GK/DW, all came into existence and continue to exist and be supported due to GW seeing the demand, and continuing to gain high sales from the customers who made these demands.
For Dark Angels alone, I can count , 17 different enteries in my codex off the top of my head that all have a unique dark angels model. I couldnt give a damn, if scout bikes performed the same as ravenwing bikes, i would still continue to buy and want new ravenwing bikes, because those are the models I like and want. Scout bikes look stupid in my opinion compared to ravenwing bikes. You are arguing for the exact same thing to happen to space marines as a whole that DID happen to IG, and than saying people are being hyperbolic for not wanting their model lines to be discontinued just like what happened with the old IG regiments. Tell me how easy it is to field a Death Krieg army of IG as a new player, given you cant buy any of their models anymore from GW. Surely its the exact same to just buy Cadian models and use Death Krieg rules eh? You forget that half the reason anyone plays the army they do is because they like the look of that army, and want it to continue to being a thing. How does Dark Angels being a thing hurt anyone else? By that argument Tau hurt Ork players cause its another Xenos army taking away from potential investments into Orks!
PS. I am not angry, I am simply in disbelief that you find it so crazy that people care about their unique models remaining cool and unique in appearance, instead of having to use the models for an army they didnt like, and actively chose to not play in the first place.
the_scotsman wrote: ....Interesting how you seem to have completely abandoned the topic of the thread here.
You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP.
The OP is "what would happen if all existing marine dexes were replaced with PRIMARIS MARINES"
stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?
However to keep you happy I will start another, I assume you will do the same in that thread and keep it for relevant information on Shadow Spear and Vigilius
Oh no, the person I am arguing with on the internet has found another post using the post history button! My credibility is instantly ruined! Now everyone will agree with him! I'm meltiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnng what a world....
the_scotsman wrote: ...stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?
You might consider that every Legion doesn't need every bit of their lore blurb written down in their rules. For White Scars you might consider their doctrinal emphasis on movement rather than their association with a specific unit and field an army centered around infantry in Repulsors and on Inceptors; "White Scars" does not mean "has no units other than motorcycles". For Ultramarines you might field a balanced combined-arms force and paint their helmets white to indicate they're the First Company; "Ultramarines" means "Codex-compliant, flexible, and balanced", not "must field units with Veteran in the name of the datasheet." A Primaris army isn't going to copy-paste the unit entries from their old-Marine army, that doesn't mean you can't play a fluffy army of that Chapter with Primaris models.
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the_scotsman wrote: ...You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP...
As the person who brought up the Terminators I feel the need to clarify that was an analogy intended to talk about how you could make Deathwing Terminators distinct from Ultramarines Terminators via the Chapter Tactics rule alone rather than an entire new datasheet, and that you can give people snowflakey models and snowflakey rules without giving them unique Codexes/datasheets. Taking it back to 30k a Night Lords Tactical Squad and an Imperial Fists Tactical Squad differ only in their Legion Tactics, yet despite having all the same options they play like very different units.
the_scotsman wrote: ...stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?
You might consider that every Legion doesn't need every bit of their lore blurb written down in their rules. For White Scars you might consider their doctrinal emphasis on movement rather than their association with a specific unit and field an army centered around infantry in Repulsors and on Inceptors; "White Scars" does not mean "has no units other than motorcycles". For Ultramarines you might field a balanced combined-arms force and paint their helmets white to indicate they're the First Company; "Ultramarines" means "Codex-compliant, flexible, and balanced", not "must field units with Veteran in the name of the datasheet." A Primaris army isn't going to copy-paste the unit entries from their old-Marine army, that doesn't mean you can't play a fluffy army of that Chapter with Primaris models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: ...You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP...
As the person who brought up the Terminators I feel the need to clarify that was an analogy intended to talk about how you could make Deathwing Terminators distinct from Ultramarines Terminators via the Chapter Tactics rule alone rather than an entire new datasheet, and that you can give people snowflakey models and snowflakey rules without giving them unique Codexes/datasheets. Taking it back to 30k a Night Lords Tactical Squad and an Imperial Fists Tactical Squad differ only in their Legion Tactics, yet despite having all the same options they play like very different units.
Yup. The fluff of your army absolutely does not have to be included in your rules or army construction. It can just be in your brain, and you can just use the same rules and models everyone else does and paint them a different color while imagining that they have a particular style.
Generally, people seem to prefer their armies to have unique rules reflecting their style. Seems like a popular aspect of 8th edition.
odd question. The variability of the various septs, chapters legions and so on has allowed the imagination to be fired by different people for different reasons and si the causeof their success in my opinion. No one could get away with robbing people like GW does if it were not so.
Melissia wrote:The prompt for the first post of this thread was as such:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
In other words, no, the what if indicated there wouldn't be Ravenwing, or Death Company, or Thunderwolf Cavalry. There would only be basic Primaris Marines squads. Nothing else. No one gets to use any "generic ravenwing". Just your basic primaris squads. There's no indication they exist in lore any more, either. It would be one thing to say "all chapters get access to a variant of the unique units" and all. That'd be weird, but okay sure why not-- I wouldn't be upset if every chapter got a super-apothecary like the BA do, for example. But removing them entirely? That's just narrowing the game and making it less interesting.
I actually asked OP for more clarity on what was meant. It's still not clear to me what the extent of the question was - is it a lore change, with all those units disappearing from the lore? Is it just those models getting bigger? Is it those units staying in the lore, but with none of their original templates?
I asked, but I've had no clarification. That clarification would make which angle I look at this much more defined.
As I'm reading OP, I'm seeing it as "they still exist in the lore, but the units don't exist in the game". Which, actually, still fine by me, because I'd assume that there'd be suitable replacements for each, if GW was going all-in on Primaris. Things like Gravis armoured melee units, or Suppressor-like units with melee weaponry, or Primaris on fast moving mounts. Each of these can represent the unique specialist formation of the Chapters - gravis melee unit for the Deathwing, flying melee unit for the Sanguinary Guard, and mounted Primaris for White Scars/TWC. If people wanted to convert their guys to look more unique to their chosen Chapter, that's fine too.
You two need to learn how to read before you whine about entitlement in such smug, arrogant manners. It's like some people come here specifically so they can look down on others rather than have productive conversations...
I'm not looking down on anyone. I'm asking questions, to better understand viewpoints - in other words, to facilitate a productive conversation. I want to address the argument of "X Chapter has ALWAYS had this", when that's not always been the case, but also of "X Chapter deserves this, but Y Chapter doesn't".
I've said nothing about someone else being entitled. Please, stop accusing me of things I've not said. For someone who's accusing people of not reading - well, speaks for itself.
bullyboy wrote:Ok, so you want a space marine force that equally has access to black knights, TWC, sanguinary guard, Deathwing knights, and literally every other option in all of the current SM books? Bloat much?
What a ridiculous idea.
It wouldn't be bloated if those units were removed in favour of generic options.
Still don't understand your entitled point. GW has given options for my army and taken away others.
Like... what? What do Blood Angels not have that other Marines do? Dark Angels? Space Wolves?
JNAProductions wrote:I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.
Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?.
Exactly. Space Marines, for all their differences, are still largely the same. Even Space Wolves and Raven Guard, two of the most diametrically opposed Chapters, can still fight in largely the same way.
But guardsmen? That simply won't happen - Tanith will not fight in the same way as Mordian Iron Guard, or Cadians as Attilans. But how many unique units to they get?
Crimson wrote:Unique models are cool. Unique rules are often unnecessary though.
This. There's nothing wrong with the really cool and flavourful sculpts that have been made for these Chapters. But do they need special rules? Are they REALLY that different - like, are BA successors the ONLY Chapters who carry flame weapons on their Sergeants, and not Salamanders? Are Dark Angels the only Chapter with - what even IS their in-game uniqueness anyways??
Well, you just described Index Imperium 1, which was a great way to reset the armies at the dawn of 8th Edition.
40k is best, IMO, with the "get-you -by" army lists - 2nd edition with the "black book", 3rd with the army lists in the back of the rulebook, 8th with the Indexes. :0
The Chapters that have their own books have a number of characteristics that warrant their having their own books. First, they are non-Codex compliant and have their own unique structures. Second, they have distinct play styles derived from structure, stratagems, characters, relics and chapter tactics. Thirdly, they have enough established lore along with continued development to make their book compelling for the person collecting the army. I recognize that not everybody finds the Dark Angels compelling. That's cool. We might like different music as well. Ultimately its up to the market to drive GW's decision-making on separate books/models. It would seem that the demand is there. While there is an opportunity cost, I'm not sure how it hurts other people that the Dark Angels have their own book. You don't need to buy it if you don't want to, and what is the Dark Angel's book preventing?
Dark Angels and Blood Angels are codex-compliant in nearly every way. The Blood Angels' only variation is the Death Company, and the Dark Angels' is the Ravenwing, but you don't need a whole different set of datasheets to field an army of bikes and land speeders - you just take a Vanguard detachment.
That's why i think the rules aren't needed. As I said, you can do the Space Wolves with a page of rules and a couple of datasheets, so any other Chapter needs even less. Most of the differences are in heraldry (nothing to do with rules) and doctrines and strategies (which the player can do themself without needing a whole different book).
Granted, the can is open and there's worms all over the floor ever since 2nd edition, so I don't think we'll ever go back, sadly.
JNAProductions wrote:I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.
Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?.
Exactly. Space Marines, for all their differences, are still largely the same. Even Space Wolves and Raven Guard, two of the most diametrically opposed Chapters, can still fight in largely the same way.
But guardsmen? That simply won't happen - Tanith will not fight in the same way as Mordian Iron Guard, or Cadians as Attilans. But how many unique units to they get?
Forge World did four different alternative Imperial guard army lists for 5th - 7th editions; Drop Troops, Siege and Armoured regiments and the Assault brigade list. granted, the Drop Troops list was described as "Elysian" and the Siege and Assault Brigade lists were described as "Death Korps", but there was nothing stopping you using the Drop Troops list to represent Harakoni Warhawks or even a Catachan airborne light infantry force. It'd be nice to see those updated (well, no need for the Armoured Regiment, but the others would be nice). If I were getting my way, I'd like to see any Guard regiment-specific lists be promoted as representing a type of regiment, not a single recruiting world. After all, Cadia, Mordian, Tallarn and Catachan and most others besides have raised various different regiments (Tallarn have raised light infantry, rough rider, armoured, artillery and superheavy armoured regiments for example). Tanith was an exception, but that's because it was destroyed during the raising of its very first regiment.
Mr Morden wrote: Apparently this slightly off tangent conversation is upsetting some of the posters so I made a new thread to continue it if you so wish
It's more accurate to say that your dishonest strawman and smug arrogance as you proclaim everyone else to be worse than you is annoying people.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I've said nothing about someone else being entitled.
Apparently you can't even read yout own posts. I quote:
So yes, you are calling people entitled because they don't want the flavorful aspects of their army removed entirely. Stop lying.
The argument that "you lose nothing because they're still in the lore" pretty much falls flat on their face, as well. My army would be entirely unplayable with primaris marines. They don't have terminators-- and terminators aren't even a unique aspect of Blood Angels, yet they'd still be lost if I was forced to only play Primaris. Aggressors aren't terminators, either. They can't even equip hammer and shield-- there's no assault variant, and they have no customization options for the tactical variant, making us lose the one per squad special weapon those squads have. I would be completely unable to just sit my models on the table and pretend they're some variant on Primaris Marines, and my models don't even use anything unique to Blood Angels in how the list is built.
I would have to completely start my army over, at which point, why would I bother?
That's something that all Space Marine chapters have access to, that they would lose if all non-Primaris were removed. Same with so many Captain customization options as well. It's not just the deviant chapters like BA or SW that would lose flavor and customization options, and pretending it's only them both demonstrates ignorance and also does a massive disservice to the Space Marine line.
To be fair, I missed the line about "if you only had Primaris marines" in the OP - that'd be a step too far. I still don't think you need separate Codexes for three different Chapters like we do at the moment, though.
I personaly don't care if you combine all Marines as long as we don't lose any customization options. Even if you generic-ify the chapter-unique options (say, if you give a "Death Seekers" upgrade option for Vanguard Veterans, for example, that lets you play them similarly to Death Company), as long as we can still use them, I'm fine with it.
I could see the outlier chapters rolled into one book (we had Angels of Death before), so in addition to Codex Space Marines, you'd have a second codex with DA, BA and SW in it. I would be fine with that if it's needed to cut down bloat, but I still want unique units for my chosen force and don't mind that this means I don't have access to other units. I just can't see all of them in one codex without some serious cutting of units, and I'm not cool with that.
If anyone thinks that 40K is not about Space Marines, you're probably wrong. There's a reason why it's the flagship of the franchise. This might leave Xenos players a little butthurt because they don't have their separate faction codexes (I play Eldar and I'm fine with no separate codex for Iyanden, it's nice that we actually get traits), but the game evolves around marines....it probably always will.
Melissia wrote: 40k is about Space Marines, and also about non-Space Marines. I would prefer rather than we cut Space Marines that we expand everything else, instead.
B-b-but if they do that for 3-4 factions they need to do it for EVERYBODY! Thats how the world works! Or everybody receives the exact same treatment or NOBODY DOES! And as its impossible for everybody to receive the same dept, then nobody should have it.
Fething miniature communists.
Melissia wrote: 40k is about Space Marines, and also about non-Space Marines. I would prefer rather than we cut Space Marines that we expand everything else, instead.
B-b-but if they do that for 3-4 factions they need to do it for EVERYBODY! Thats how the world works! Or everybody receives the exact same treatment or NOBODY DOES! And as its impossible for everybody to receive the same dept, then nobody should have it.
Fething miniature communists.
It is always funny to me that whenever this argument tends to get made, it's USUALLY the person who is getting something special that everyone else doesn't get...
"well wait, but if we give the special thing that currently I only get to someone else, then EVERYONE will want it!"
Melissia wrote: 40k is about Space Marines, and also about non-Space Marines. I would prefer rather than we cut Space Marines that we expand everything else, instead.
B-b-but if they do that for 3-4 factions they need to do it for EVERYBODY! Thats how the world works! Or everybody receives the exact same treatment or NOBODY DOES! And as its impossible for everybody to receive the same dept, then nobody should have it.
Fething miniature communists.
It IS kinda like that though.
Neither the Angels deviate enough like Space Wolves that you can't consolidate them. Simple as that. Ravenwing Bikers are just Bikers. Standard Deathwing Terminators are, well, just Terminators with access to a Plasma Cannon and that's it (you can't expect me to believe you mix and match everything you can just because you have the option to). Baal Predators simply have access to a TL Assault Cannon (and there's always the FW one that gives you the Flamestorm, making the Heavy Flamer option kinda unnecessary).
Melissia wrote: 40k is about Space Marines, and also about non-Space Marines. I would prefer rather than we cut Space Marines that we expand everything else, instead.
B-b-but if they do that for 3-4 factions they need to do it for EVERYBODY! Thats how the world works! Or everybody receives the exact same treatment or NOBODY DOES! And as its impossible for everybody to receive the same dept, then nobody should have it.
Fething miniature communists.
It IS kinda like that though.
Neither the Angels deviate enough like Space Wolves that you can't consolidate them. Simple as that. Ravenwing Bikers are just Bikers. Standard Deathwing Terminators are, well, just Terminators with access to a Plasma Cannon and that's it (you can't expect me to believe you mix and match everything you can just because you have the option to). Baal Predators simply have access to a TL Assault Cannon (and there's always the FW one that gives you the Flamestorm, making the Heavy Flamer option kinda unnecessary).
Amazing how you use Ravenwing Bikers and Deathwing terminators to try and reinforce your point while completely ignoring the more glaring Black Knights and Deathwing Knights. Good job!
Melissia wrote: 40k is about Space Marines, and also about non-Space Marines. I would prefer rather than we cut Space Marines that we expand everything else, instead.
B-b-but if they do that for 3-4 factions they need to do it for EVERYBODY! Thats how the world works! Or everybody receives the exact same treatment or NOBODY DOES! And as its impossible for everybody to receive the same dept, then nobody should have it.
Fething miniature communists.
It is always funny to me that whenever this argument tends to get made, it's USUALLY the person who is getting something special that everyone else doesn't get...
"well wait, but if we give the special thing that currently I only get to someone else, then EVERYONE will want it!"
I'm actually in favour of both opening all specialized options as generic options for all chapters and then making new cool models like the Iron Hand or Salamander special terminator units.
But I also realice that someone is gonna get cut because thats just how this works. So for example If I have to chose between ttwo options:
1)- Theres only one Imperial Guard/Orks/Tau Septs book because is impossible to give codex and miniature ranges to every subfaction.
2)- A couple of factions are expanded upon with rules that deviate enough from the base codex (Farsight Enclaves, Tau Auxiliaries, Freebotaz, Speed Freekz, Catachan, Tempestus Scions, for example) and with new and interesting miniature ranges (Because no models=no rules and every box=new and unique rules).
I would chose 2, because I prefer MORE options than less options.
The "But if GW has that many codex then they will take much longer to add things to older factions!" argument isn't one, to begin with. GW has chose to add a ton of mini factions and many other games to their roster and support them.
And lets be honest. Did we really receive more things to our factions in the 2003-2014 period where GW abandoned everything but 40k (Because Fantasy was mostly cold dead before End Times, they abandoned LOTR and closed Specialist Games) and we had 2-3 Codex a year?
At the end of the day, the amount of content factions will receive has nothing to do with the number of factions (If somebody in this industry has the capacity to give attention to everybody is GW) but with how interested GW is in doing it.
At the end of the day the push for putting all Space Marines in the same codex is not a movement born of critical analisis in how GW works, but in an idea that if GW would to do that they would then put more work in "neglected" factions when they are allready doing that.
Some people arguee that this is something born of a "balance desire" but thats just nonsense, you can balance 4 books that are nearly the same as easy as one big book with subfaction rules and a couple special characters.
And, I'll repeat, I don't oppose to opening all specialized options as generic options (Even something like Thunderwofl Cavalry can be made Xeno Cavalry or something like that for things like Salamanders riding giant lizards or any kind of successor chapter people can come with). Actually thats something I have always wanted, and also for special characters.
But I don't specially emphatize with people that ask for the toys of others kid to be put away so they can have some too (Or just because they don't like them even if their existence doesn't affect them in the slightest), instead of just aking for their own toys.
the_scotsman wrote: It is always funny to me that whenever this argument tends to get made, it's USUALLY the person who is getting something special that everyone else doesn't get...
Heh. I remember making the argument "we should expand all factions not just marine factions" a decade ago. Pretty sure I made it on Dakka, too. Back then, I didn't play Marines, now I do... and my own argument remains the same.
ValentineGames wrote: Today's generation don't care about background or flavour. So I doubt it would phase them at all.
So long as they have codex creep and a meta.
You know, speaking as someone who actually doesn't care overmuch about the background (though I know plenty of people who do, so your statement falls flat) I DON'T want Codex Creep. I want the game to be balanced, as best possible.
Also, do you know what a meta is? Because it doesn't matter whether you're a cut-throat tournament player or a casual garage-hammer guy, there's a meta. The meta is just what people tend to bring to the games. Now, the tournament meta can be more defined, since it's more recorded and has everyone trying to win as best they can, but a casual store or gaming club still has a meta.
Melissia wrote: 40k is about Space Marines, and also about non-Space Marines. I would prefer rather than we cut Space Marines that we expand everything else, instead.
B-b-but if they do that for 3-4 factions they need to do it for EVERYBODY! Thats how the world works! Or everybody receives the exact same treatment or NOBODY DOES! And as its impossible for everybody to receive the same dept, then nobody should have it.
Fething miniature communists.
It IS kinda like that though.
Neither the Angels deviate enough like Space Wolves that you can't consolidate them. Simple as that. Ravenwing Bikers are just Bikers. Standard Deathwing Terminators are, well, just Terminators with access to a Plasma Cannon and that's it (you can't expect me to believe you mix and match everything you can just because you have the option to). Baal Predators simply have access to a TL Assault Cannon (and there's always the FW one that gives you the Flamestorm, making the Heavy Flamer option kinda unnecessary).
Amazing how you use Ravenwing Bikers and Deathwing terminators to try and reinforce your point while completely ignoring the more glaring Black Knights and Deathwing Knights. Good job!
It does reinforce my point though that most of these "special" units can be tossed, and you can just keep maybe a few. I mean, in a consolidated codex, I'd be for keeping the Knights, the funky Land Speeder, and the Deathwing Champ/Flag Bearer, but that's it.
I would absolutely still play, and I would still have the same lore, and same flavour. While I enjoy 8th, the power creep and absurdity of stratagems in certain situations reduces the fun rather than enhancing it. It was a good idea that quickly became completely over-the-top.
However, I will say that 40K could use a bit more crunch if you remove the traits/stratagems etc. A good game is a good game (something 40K has rarely been).
In fairness GW IS giving the subfaction codex treatment to others, Chaos Space Marines. so it';s being done more now so well we could see it done otherwise. thing is to get a subfaction codex you need a few things..
1: sufficantly deep subfaction lore to support new and differant models. 1K sons and Death guard for example both had this, they're fairly radically differant in orginization from say, Black Legion that they could support new stuff.
2: an existing fanbase. People need to be excited eneugh by the release to buy into it. yet again 1K sons and death guard had this. they seem to be some of the most popular traitor legions so they've clearly got that fanbase.
3: this might be perhaps best left as 1a but something that will make their new line stand out visually from their parent faction. be it new units or simply varient looks (such as robes , sculpted chest pieces or totems)
4: and least important, the army should have something that can make it's play style distinct from the parent codex the 3 marine varients where initally subtly differnt, but this has extended a fair bit now. but yeah if the army is going to play exactly the same, no reason to be a codex
so looking at these qualifications, the real question is ask is "are there any obvious canidates for a subfaction codex already out there?"
I can think of a few. ignoring Eldar corsairs whom have a forge world list, I think Orks could proably manage a Feebootaz codex, Catachans could possiably manage their own codex and be really fun in the process (a close assault guard army would be amazingly fun)
but not even space marine armies are destined to succeed. Black Templars for example. It's no suprise that the long lasting SM codices are all first founding chapters
So yes, you are calling people entitled because they don't want the flavorful aspects of their army removed entirely. Stop lying.
Selective editing much? Now, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I apologise for any confusion, but I'm not agreeing with anything about "entitlement" - I'm agreeing with the rest of the point, that being "why should X Chapter get special unique rules and the other unique Chapters not?". Hope that clears things up, instead of selectively choosing the context of what I've written.
The argument that "you lose nothing because they're still in the lore" pretty much falls flat on their face, as well. My army would be entirely unplayable with primaris marines. They don't have terminators-- and terminators aren't even a unique aspect of Blood Angels, yet they'd still be lost if I was forced to only play Primaris. Aggressors aren't terminators, either. They can't even equip hammer and shield-- there's no assault variant, and they have no customization options for the tactical variant, making us lose the one per squad special weapon those squads have. I would be completely unable to just sit my models on the table and pretend they're some variant on Primaris Marines, and my models don't even use anything unique to Blood Angels in how the list is built.
I would have to completely start my army over, at which point, why would I bother?
That's something that all Space Marine chapters have access to, that they would lose if all non-Primaris were removed. Same with so many Captain customization options as well. It's not just the deviant chapters like BA or SW that would lose flavor and customization options, and pretending it's only them both demonstrates ignorance and also does a massive disservice to the Space Marine line.
Which is why I asked OP for what exactly they mean by their post. Are those units gone, but their parent unit remains? Do those units still exist in the lore? Are there Primaris versions of the parent units? You're running on the assumption that "the unique units are gone, their parent units are gone, there's only Primaris!" - I'm running on the assumption that either those units are gone, but their parent units (ie, Terminators, Vanguard, etc etc) are still around, or alternatively, the units exist in lore, and the lore has moved on to reflect the Primaris units. So, for instance, Deathwing not getting Terminators, but now wear Gravis Armour, or Death Company now being based off of Reivers. The unit still exist, the lore exists - so that's the flavour still there. If it comes down to in-game flavour, why shouldn't other Chapters get the same units to pick from, and be fair to them all?
What's the difference, fundamentally, between Gravis Armour and Terminator Armour? Assuming weapon options are allowed to cross over, which is logical, why can't Deathwing wear Gravis Armour? Why couldn't Sanguinary Guard be Inceptors carrying Glaive Encarmines? Why couldn't Death Company be normal Primaris units with a different paintjob and stratagem - of course, still allowing the increased weapon variety.
If we can assume that GW have removed all of this, why can't we also assume that the Primaris range wouldn't be expanded to accommodate the vacuum? I think that an argument of "GW will take all the unique units and we'll only have the current Primaris stuff!" is just as valid as an argument saying "GW will take the unique units, but replace them with an expanded Primaris line".
Again, I think a lot of this is people working off of different interpretations of what would happen.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Now, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I apologise for any confusion, but I'm not agreeing with anything about "entitlement"
There's no "giving me the benefit of the doubt", you responded to him calling people who disagreed with him "entitled" by saying "exactly" with no disagreement on the "entitled" part. Therefor, regardless of intent, in actual fact you were calling people entitled over it. And "selective editing" has nothing to do with it. I cut the post down because it was a pointlessly large quote pyramid and I'm not a rude person who spams threads with pointlessly large quote pyramids. In context, your post said the same thing as the cut-down version.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: You're running on the assumption that "the unique units are gone, their parent units are gone, there's only Primaris!"
Because that is the scenario placed in the first post. Perhaps you should read that post. Here, I'll quote it for you:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
Exact words: "Just standard Primaris".
Take away all of those things, and use ONLY Primaris units, adding nothing new ("just standard") to replace what was lost.
My reading of it is not an "assumption", it's the literal meaning of his post. This entire thread you have not been answering the original post, but some idea in your head which you wanted to talk about that was entirely off topic from the original post.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Now, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I apologise for any confusion, but I'm not agreeing with anything about "entitlement"
There's no "giving me the benefit of the doubt", you responded to him calling people who disagreed with him "entitled" by saying "exactly" with no disagreement on the "entitled" part.
Which was not my intent. I agreed with the rest of the comment, however, and didn't bother editing the tiny fragment I didn't really care about.
As said above, my apologies for the confusion.
Therefor, regardless of intent, in actual fact you were calling people entitled over it.
And I rescinded that. Time to move on.
And "selective editing" has nothing to do with it. I cut the post down because it was a pointlessly large quote pyramid and I'm not a rude person who spams threads with pointlessly large quote pyramids. In context, your post said the same thing as the cut-down version.
No, you took a tiny portion of my actual text, and assumed that your reduction of my post was still accurate. It wasn't.
Also, you're calling the fact that I do my best to retain as much context as possible "rude"? Also, "spamming"? As far as I'm concerned, I've not spammed this thread at all. Of course, seeing as spamming is discouraged by Dakka, I'm sure a moderator would have called me out of my "spamming" if it was a problem.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: You're running on the assumption that "the unique units are gone, their parent units are gone, there's only Primaris!"
Because that is the scenario placed in the first post. Perhaps you should read that post. Here, I'll quote it for you:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Would you still collect your chapter if GW do away with all the flavour and make marines just standard primaris, with no TWC, DC, Ravenwing etc.
Exact words: "Just standard Primaris".
Take away all of those things, and use ONLY Primaris units, adding nothing new ("just standard") to replace what was lost.
My reading of it is not an "assumption", it's the literal meaning of his post. This entire thread you have not been answering the original post, but some idea in your head which you wanted to talk about that was entirely off topic from the original post.
I have asked for extra clarification from the OP about EXACTLY what this means. I want to know every detail, because I don't feel the information I'm given is enough.
The OP may imply that the only flavour of a Chapter comes from sooper speshul unique units, and not from their wealth of lore or background. I disagree with that, and so already, just on the first section, there's a difference in interpretation. I want to know what parameters the OP is working with here so I can answer the question better.
"doing away with all the flavour" and "make marines just standard primaris" are not mutually exclusive. You can have armies featuring non-Primaris having no flavour (by the lore being stripped away), or all Primaris lists with a ton of flavour (say, moving Deathwing to Gravis Armour). That's a second point of uncertainty I want clarification on.
"Standard Primaris" means what exactly? You seem to think it means "adding nothing new", but that's never mentioned at all. "Standard Primaris" could just mean Primaris units but no Chapter specific units, a standard selection - that doesn't mean we can't have more non-specific Primaris. Again, it very much depends on how you read it. Your idea of standard Primaris I wouldn't like, but *my* interpretation of standard Primaris I would.
This is what I mean by answering the OP - it relies too much on anti-Primaris language and assuming that flavour and standard units are mutually exclusive, that if you approach it from a different opinion, it becomes incredibly confusing. I'm just asking for clarification. No need to be rude about it, and assume I'm being off topic. I'm asking questions about the topic itself, which is fully on-topic.
bullyboy wrote: As a Dark Angels player, not a chance. The Deathwing/Ravenwing flavours make the army.
Back to Entitlement
You don't loose flavour - Flavour is nothing to do with rules.
- you don't loose rules - others gain them
Why exactly do a few snowflake Chapters, in this case YOUR special snowflake Chapter need these special rules and the other 990+ (including other First Founding Chapters) don't.
Hmm. I remember distinctly the Black Templar land raider crusader having a troop capacity of 20, not to mention other interesting rules.
Then everyone could have it and they were like "whoops, can't let all these other chapters have a 20 cap transport" and boom, the vehicle completely lost its purpose, in addition to the excuse for its otherwise stupidly weak sponsons which are only there to free up internal space...
Sgt_Smudge wrote: ersion.No, you took a tiny portion of my actual text, and assumed that your reduction of my post was still accurate. It wasn't.
It was, because there's no meaningful difference between the shortened quote and the ultralong spammy multi-tiered quote which took up six or seven times the space.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: This is what I mean by answering the OP - it relies too much on anti-Primaris language and assuming that flavour and standard units are mutually exclusive
So your argument is that a "standard primaris unit" is one that does not currently actually exist.
That's a very peculiar definition. If I walked up to the average player and started talking about making an army out of "just standard primaris" units, you think I'd be talking about primaris units that are purely theoretical, not the primaris units that already exist? I call bullgak. You're lying.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: ersion.No, you took a tiny portion of my actual text, and assumed that your reduction of my post was still accurate. It wasn't.
It was, because there's no meaningful difference between the shortened quote and the ultralong spammy multi-tiered quote which took up six or seven times the space.
The fact we're having this discussion says otherwise.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: This is what I mean by answering the OP - it relies too much on anti-Primaris language and assuming that flavour and standard units are mutually exclusive
So your argument is that a "standard primaris unit" is one that does not currently actually exist.
That's a very peculiar definition. If I walked up to the average player and started talking about making an army out of "just standard primaris" units, you think I'd be talking about primaris units that are purely theoretical, not the primaris units that already exist? I call bullgak. You're lying.
Keep making assumptions, but sure: you know how I think better than I do, don't you. Have we finished?
Honestly? Yeah, we are done. You're not being honest in this thread, and not making arguments in good faith. You're assuming a phrase like "just standard primaris" means "not actually just standard primaris, but also other primaris that don't currently exist" and acting like people who read "just standard primaris" as "just standard primaris" are the ones making assumptions.
LoftyS wrote: Hmm. I remember distinctly the Black Templar land raider crusader having a troop capacity of 20, not to mention other interesting rules.
Then everyone could have it and they were like "whoops, can't let all these other chapters have a 20 cap transport" and boom, the vehicle completely lost its purpose, in addition to the excuse for its otherwise stupidly weak sponsons which are only there to free up internal space...
Most of these rules "advantages" for BT were the result of GW not updating codices for entire editions at a time. They weren't deliberate design choices for BT, they were the result of everyone else playing 5th edition while the BT rules were still 4th edition. The only "loss" was finally updating BT to current rules.
LoftyS wrote: Hmm. I remember distinctly the Black Templar land raider crusader having a troop capacity of 20, not to mention other interesting rules.
Then everyone could have it and they were like "whoops, can't let all these other chapters have a 20 cap transport" and boom, the vehicle completely lost its purpose, in addition to the excuse for its otherwise stupidly weak sponsons which are only there to free up internal space...
Most of these rules "advantages" for BT were the result of GW not updating codices for entire editions at a time. They weren't deliberate design choices for BT, they were the result of everyone else playing 5th edition while the BT rules were still 4th edition. The only "loss" was finally updating BT to current rules.
Which I'd like to think is a good reason for merging books and unit entries - that way, everyone is working from the same datasheets, in the same book, for factions which are largely the same. I'd expect the same from most factions.
LoftyS wrote: Hmm. I remember distinctly the Black Templar land raider crusader having a troop capacity of 20, not to mention other interesting rules.
Then everyone could have it and they were like "whoops, can't let all these other chapters have a 20 cap transport" and boom, the vehicle completely lost its purpose, in addition to the excuse for its otherwise stupidly weak sponsons which are only there to free up internal space...
Most of these rules "advantages" for BT were the result of GW not updating codices for entire editions at a time. They weren't deliberate design choices for BT, they were the result of everyone else playing 5th edition while the BT rules were still 4th edition. The only "loss" was finally updating BT to current rules.
Which I'd like to think is a good reason for merging books and unit entries - that way, everyone is working from the same datasheets, in the same book, for factions which are largely the same. I'd expect the same from most factions.
That's how you get the current mess where BT can't play like they're supposed to because the rest of the book is shooting-centric.
LoftyS wrote: Hmm. I remember distinctly the Black Templar land raider crusader having a troop capacity of 20, not to mention other interesting rules.
Then everyone could have it and they were like "whoops, can't let all these other chapters have a 20 cap transport" and boom, the vehicle completely lost its purpose, in addition to the excuse for its otherwise stupidly weak sponsons which are only there to free up internal space...
Most of these rules "advantages" for BT were the result of GW not updating codices for entire editions at a time. They weren't deliberate design choices for BT, they were the result of everyone else playing 5th edition while the BT rules were still 4th edition. The only "loss" was finally updating BT to current rules.
Which I'd like to think is a good reason for merging books and unit entries - that way, everyone is working from the same datasheets, in the same book, for factions which are largely the same. I'd expect the same from most factions.
That's how you get the current mess where BT can't play like they're supposed to because the rest of the book is shooting-centric.
Which is why I think BT should get more melee focus from their Chapter Tactic, unique Crusader Squads, and relic access. Aside from that, what are you missing? Sword Brethren work as both Vanguard and Terminators, which are vanilla units. In fact, they're the perfect example of what I'm talking about.
Sword Brethren are the Black Templar elite terminator force, just like how Deathwing are the Dark Angels elite terminator force, just like how the Firedrakes are the elite Salamander terminator force, and so on. They should all share a profile, and the differences come from their different Chapters (which may confer extra rules in the Chapter's Doctrine rules).
Marines generally sucking in melee is a problem. BT are not the only melee focused chapter. Marines should have more support for close combat focused approach, that is a thing a lot of players find appealing. Of course this would help the BT too.
). I still think it's not really necessary. I'd do one single Codex: Adeptus Astartes, or at most split it like the Horus heresy books - Codex: Adeptus Astartes and Codex Adaptus Astartes: Space Marine Chapters.
