Inspired by this thread here, I was wondering whom we think would beat whom in one-on-one fisticuffs between the Primarchs.
To keep the question specific, I'll impose the following parameters: - No armour, no weapons, birthday suits only. - Environmental factors: none. This is a closed arena that confers no advantages either way. - Pre-Heresy only. No Chaos gift shenanigans. - Certain character defining characteristics are allowed, even if they seem to contradict the first parameter, meaning things like Magnus's psychic prowess and Ferrus Manus's arms. - The twins fight as a pair. - With respect to Vulkan, I'm only looking for whom kills whom first, so he still loses even he's not permanently dead. - Draws are allowed if it pleases you.
Present your answers in an ordered list if you please, but if you feel this isn't possible because of things like rock-paper-scissors type results, or just because you feel the question is childish and meaningless (pro-tip: it is, but I'm bored ) feel free to share that too!
I was going to kick things off, but then I realised I've no clue on what to base an answer .
Post scriptum: I did do a quick search to make sure this hasn't been asked 40,000 times before and this not-quite-the-same question is all I found.
Post post scriptum: actually, let's democratise the answer and make a poll. Vote for your champ. And remember, the only real loser is the one who attacks someone for their opinion.
I am inclined to vote Lion (Though this might just be biased thinking).
However I do believe it would be a close match between Lion, Horus, Magnus and Russ.
Reasons. Magnus even before Chaos shenanigans was quite the powerhouse psyker. So if he gets the time to start doing his psyker stuff he could be quite the power house. However Russ seems ot have a resistance to this somewhat and other psykers like Lorgar in the arena may cause disruptions and stop certain powers going off. So I think there would be opportunity for him to be put down.
Russ is skilled however he has been beat before one on one. (People may say sucker punch but a win is a win). I think his brothers would be more confident against him than others so he would end up in more brawls and inevitably more exhausted coming down to final few.
Horus is a powerhouse and very skilled. However he was known to be hot headed and very very impulsive. The Lion too but in battle he was always composed.
I think the Lion strategic personality and battle prowess would give him the much needed edge to come on top.
I'm not sure having Alpharius and Omegon fighting as a pair is really fair. Alpharius on his own almost killed Dorn in a duel, and even if they are smaller and physically weaker than their other brothers, the differences aren't so drastic that it's going to mean a 2v1 is fair. Moreso when you consider perfectly coordinated, multi-pronged attacks are literally the Alpha Legion's thing.
Disregarding them, there's a couple of Primarchs that I think are the underdogs here that have one-on-one feats far outstripping their brothers. Lorgar was able to beat freaking An'ggrath in a duel, which is admittedly pretty stupid but it happened. Ferrus Manus literally wrestled and beat down what is heavily implied to be a C'tan/shard of a C'tan with his bare hands and came out of it with solid metal hands. I'd say the two of them are good contenders for beating the crap out of their brothers on a good day in a one-on-one fist fight.
I’m betting on Magnus. I mean, he’s the second most powerful psyker in the galaxy. Sure his brothers may be better fighters, but without their weapons and armor, they’re just bringing fists to a psychic mind-bullet fight.
Drakzilla wrote: I’m betting on Magnus. I mean, he’s the second most powerful psyker in the galaxy. Sure his brothers may be better fighters, but without their weapons and armor, they’re just bringing fists to a psychic mind-bullet fight.
Ever heard of 'deny the witch'?
Psychic effects are relative - it depends on the user's attunement to the warp as well as the target's resistance against it.
If Magnus can use his powers then I'd put my money on him against pretty much everyone other than Horus and maybe Russ. Depends on how big the arena is and how quick they can get to him. The most recent books make it clear that Horus and Russ were a cut above the rest in combat and I don't see anyone else doing that well against them.
I know he doesn't have a ton of stealth or guile, and there's every chance that one of the sneaky ones (the twins, Corax, the Lion, or Curze) engages him when they're fresh and he's spent, but I still think he might pull it out.
Angron. He can take a severe amount of punishment and doesn't know the meaning of holding back. These are the two most important things in a brawl
I think the Lion and Ferrus Manus would also be two of the last standing. Lion because he's practically the perfect warrior both physically and mentally and Manus because he's hard as nails and has metal hands.
Angron survived a skyscraper fall on him, is probably the angriest of the bunch and the most adept at close combat. Maybe Magnus though depending on warp power shenanigans.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So far as I'm aware, The Lion is the only one to have actually won a bout of fisticuffs - and that was against Leman Russ.
That's a pretty decent indicator of who might be the champion pugilist.
I fear Angron would be somewhat hampered by his Butcher's Nails, as he may be at a disadvantage against a calmer, more calculating brother.
Angron won a fistfight against Russ as well, after he shattered his weapons. Meaning Russ seems to loose quite a lot of fist fights.
The butchers nails are actually an advantage in this situation. Fighting against someone who doesn't care about holding back or getting hurt, is incredible hard, as he would just keep on coming after you, even if it means taking a hit himself.
Considering Angron basically lived in an arena for the the first years, he already knows everything about this kind of fight.
Nerak wrote: Angron survived a skyscraper fall on him, is probably the angriest of the bunch and the most adept at close combat. Maybe Magnus though depending on warp power shenanigans.
if its just a fist fight this goes poorly. I think Angron doesn't knwo what a fistfight is and would immediately try to kill everyone.
Same for Colonel Kurtz...er Nighthaunter. He wouldn't fight, but would sneakily try to kill everyone.
If psychic powers are allowed Magnus wins because psychic powers are basically cheating.
If no psychic powers are allowed... I vote Horus Lupercal. The Luna Wolves were never the most powerful psykers, or the most meticulous strategists, or the most ferocious hand-to-hand combatants. Their chapter and primarch are characterized by an overwhelming pride and ambition that were only ever rivaled by the emperor Himself. If Horus really wanted to come out on top in this fist fight, then he would come out on top. No question.
After all, up until the Heresy Horus's entire character was defined by one trait: winning.
pm713 wrote: I'd go Russ. Nobody else grew up in glorified pub fights.
Angron grew up in the gladiatorial ring...
A gladiatorial fight is not a pub fight. There's no weird singing, drinking, random animals and the whole thing is organised. But I will admit I forgot Angron existed there.
I don’t think naked fist fights are a good representation. I mean Ferrus has pseudo metal fists and Sanguinius has wings.
But if you’d allow me to diverge from that initial premise, I believe that using their respective advantages, and equipment, the canon would be that:
Russ, Fulgrim are the deadliest 1 on 1 duelists.
Sanguinius could match them mostly because of his prescience and mobility.
With Angron and the Lion following closely behind - though the former is more angry and brutal than skilled and the latter while a skilled swordsman is actually more of a tactician.
The above though is not reflected in HH tabletop stats - just fluff.
pm713 wrote: I'd go Russ. Nobody else grew up in glorified pub fights.
Angron grew up in the gladiatorial ring...
A gladiatorial fight is not a pub fight. There's no weird singing, drinking, random animals and the whole thing is organised. But I will admit I forgot Angron existed there.
The op didn't state that it was a pub fight, but a fist fight. A boxing match is an organised fist fight, and arguably the modern equivalent of the gladiatorial spectacle. In fairness also, I'm just not a Russ fan.
Niiai wrote: The Lions track record is quite good.
No, it's not. The Lion lost his first fight against Curze, and it was unfair in the Lion's favor. It started with the Lion sucker-stabbing Curze in the gut, was closely matched sword against claws, and then ended in a Curze win with Curze choking the life out of the Lion. The only reason the Lion didn't die was due to outside interference.... and that was a match that started will for the Lion. Deprived of weapons, at full health, and without outside influence, Curze defeats the Lion, no contest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Characters that are definitely out: Lion (lost to Curze solidly in a fight that a brawl), Dorn, Russ (solid loss to Angron), Lorgar, Guilliman (almost killed by a handful of Alpha Legionnaires, ran from Angron, etc).
I have my doubts: Fulgrim,
Crap! Time for work. Will finish this later. Maybe we should do a bracket, since its March Madness, and pair random primarchs in brawls and see who wins by vote.
You don't survive years in gladatorial pit fights without picking up all the knowledge needed. As best im aware, he doesn't lose 1v1 against anyone. Angron lost to Russ due to outside involvement by the Space Wolves stopping him. The butchers nails give him the stamina to keep powering through the whole contest. The very act of fighting rejuvenating and invigorating him to further violence.
And considering the lack of aptmospheric advantages, i gotta give it to him. No real weapons otherwise, nowhere to hide.
Well Fulgrim actually beat Ferrus - and I’m not talking about Isstvan but rather prior to that on Ferrus’s ship. Ferrus only lived then because Fulgrim spared him because of sentimentality.
As for Russ - he wounded post-Molech-Chaos-powered Horus.
Edit - And Russ was built to kill other Primarch.
Angron is angry and brutal but not actually a skillful duelist.
KiloFiX wrote: Well Fulgrim actually beat Ferrus - and I’m not talking about Isstvan but rather prior to that on Ferrus’s ship. Ferrus only lived then because Fulgrim spared him because of sentimentality.
As for Russ - he wounded post-Molech-Chaos-powered Horus.
Edit - And Russ was built to kill other Primarch.
Angron is angry and brutal but not actually a skillful duelist.
We're not talking duelling. We're talking something between a barfight and unnarmed combat.
Guilliman (almost killed by a handful of Alpha Legionnaires, ran from Angron, etc).
ok first of all that was a fully armed alpha legion kill team in an enslcosed space with automatic weapons against a unarmed Primarch caught off guard, and he STILL won. That's a plus side for Gulliman. only in your frankly bizzare world is this somehow proof Gulliman is weak,
as for running from Angron, that was after Angron was turned into a fething deamon prince! something Gulliman had never experianced before, running then wasn't a sign he was super duper weak for a primarch (unless you can provide proof of ANY primarch crossing blades with a deamon prince and winning?) in fact the only primarch whom has on record crossed blades with a deamon prince and survived to tell the story is Gulliman, whom has fought Angron (during the Heresy) and magnus and Mortarian post Heresy
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So far as I'm aware, The Lion is the only one to have actually won a bout of fisticuffs - and that was against Leman Russ.
That's a pretty decent indicator of who might be the champion pugilist.
I fear Angron would be somewhat hampered by his Butcher's Nails, as he may be at a disadvantage against a calmer, more calculating brother.
Not necessarily.. Pure aggression can be an advantage, if you want proof watch some of the old pride videos of fighters like wanderlei silva or mauricio rua.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's difficult to say really, as we know little about their hand to hand combat ability, or their stats, height, weight, reach etc, which are necessary for a proper analysis of hand to hand ability.
Angron beat Russ in a fist fight during the night of the Wolf. Angron is the best one on one fighter, he made Guilliman crawl away from him on his hands and knees, Sanguinius and Horus are the only two that could compete with him but Sanguinius is more of just a swordsman. Angron and Horus are the top two in my opinion. Vulken was the strongest physically but anyone knows anything about fighting knows skill and speed are far greater assets than raw strength.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jorim wrote: Angron actually won that duel against guilliman and was only stopped from delivering the killing blow by his ascension to deamonhood.
Not true, Guilliman crawled away and was then surrounded by his honour guard.
1) Angron (cos pit fights are my thing, baby)
2) Russ (put in a good showing against daemon Horus).
2) Lion (has great physicality and skill, but grew up alone on a chaos world so knows you've sometimes got to fight dirty to beat superior opponents -think Deadpool 2 Collosus)
4) Horus (should place higher than Lion but is too proud and arrogant which holds him back when fighting opponents he doesn't outclass)
5) twins
5) twins
7) Lorgar (hides in the shadows, gets others to do his fights for him, got a nasty punch when needed)
8) Ferrus Manus (got a mean set of hands if he can keep his head)
9) Rogal Dorn (his name means imperial fist)
10) Guillinan (he has to place in the top half as he is heroic, but he's also boring)
11) Curze (hides in the shadows, got a nasty punch when needed)
12) Perturabo
12) Mortarion
12) missing Primarch A
12) missing Primarch 1
16) Jagged Eye Can (he's barely even a named character; he's the 'space marine biker' to Guiliman's 'Marneus Calgar')
17) Corax (hides in the shadows)
18) Fulgrim (too sentimental)
18) Sanguinius (too sentimental)
20) Magnus (consorts with daemons, screws things up by trying to fix them)
21) the one who is so forgettable I can't remember
22) honourable mention young man Sigismond.
23) honourable mention Abaddon
24) honourable mention clone Manuss
25) honourable mention Jedi ghost Manus
26) dishonourable mention clone Horus
Yeah Russ has gone way up in my estimation after beating Horus, because Horus had already been to Molech and got his god powers and people say the spear never misses, but that's nonsense as Horus was able to bring the emperor himself low, so if that happened to the Emperor himself then a weapon he made isn't going to do much. Also Leman fought Horus after fighting through the Vengeful Spirit, Horus was fresh as a daisy for that fight.
If we're talking all against all in a big pit then my money is on Angron or Sanguinius.
Angron is basically built for this, he is happy to fight tooth and claw and never gives up or knows when he is beaten.
Sanguinius would win if he fought smart, big IF. He could fl up and not engage his brothers whilst they beat the crap out of each other and then swoop down and take out the stragglers. He's very fast and even amoungst his brother is considered perhaps the best fighter. Couple that with his psykic powers of being able to see the future and presumably denying the witch and he is onto a winner. Unfortunatly I suspect he is more likely to jump straight into the middle and try to get the other to stop, either that or decide it would be dishonourable to fight from the air as his brother couldn't but if he played to win I think he would.
The Khan is supposedly up there as is Sanguinius, you mention him below but he's supposedly one of the most competent with a blade. I wouldn't say Russ is a great duellist but he's certainly suited to a brawl.
as for running from Angron, that was after Angron was turned into a fething deamon prince! something Gulliman had never experianced before, running then wasn't a sign he was super duper weak for a primarch (unless you can provide proof of ANY primarch crossing blades with a deamon prince and winning?) in fact the only primarch whom has on record crossed blades with a deamon prince and survived to tell the story is Gulliman, whom has fought Angron (during the Heresy) and magnus and Mortarian post Heresy
Even Argel Tal in Betrayer comments comments at how well Guilliman is doing against Angron and Lorgar. He takes them both on at the same time. He starts to give ground but it's no mean feat taking on 2 Primarchs.
tneva82 wrote: Well word from authors is all are able to beat all depending.
And I think this to be true. At certain times throughout the series we've had reflections from various Primarchs musing on who they could beat and others who have thought which ones could beat others. We have to put some of this down to arrogance and opinion but most of it would be truth.
It all depends on who is fighting who, perhaps we should pick 2 out and put them against each other and move down the list? Some obviously are better all rounders, others are more fighty. I mean all were created with military knowledge and fighting prowess ingrained into their very being so they are all as deadly as each other, it's there individual traits that will either hinder or help them.
The Khan is supposedly up there as is Sanguinius, you mention him below but he's supposedly one of the most competent with a blade. I wouldn't say Russ is a great duellist but he's certainly suited to a brawl.
as for running from Angron, that was after Angron was turned into a fething deamon prince! something Gulliman had never experianced before, running then wasn't a sign he was super duper weak for a primarch (unless you can provide proof of ANY primarch crossing blades with a deamon prince and winning?) in fact the only primarch whom has on record crossed blades with a deamon prince and survived to tell the story is Gulliman, whom has fought Angron (during the Heresy) and magnus and Mortarian post Heresy
Even Argel Tal in Betrayer comments comments at how well Guilliman is doing against Angron and Lorgar. He takes them both on at the same time. He starts to give ground but it's no mean feat taking on 2 Primarchs.
tneva82 wrote: Well word from authors is all are able to beat all depending.
And I think this to be true. At certain times throughout the series we've had reflections from various Primarchs musing on who they could beat and others who have thought which ones could beat others. We have to put some of this down to arrogance and opinion but most of it would be truth.
It all depends on who is fighting who, perhaps we should pick 2 out and put them against each other and move down the list? Some obviously are better all rounders, others are more fighty. I mean all were created with military knowledge and fighting prowess ingrained into their very being so they are all as deadly as each other, it's there individual traits that will either hinder or help them.
The Khan isn't up anywhere, in Scars it is specifically spelled out that the Khan and Mortarian are the only to unknowns in regards to who would win in a fight between Primarchs.
Guilliman does not fight Angron and Lorgar at the same time. Lorgar duelled with him and then stopped, THEN Guilliman and Angron duelled. Lorgar was busy bringing the power from the warp through to the materium. Angron and Guilliman fought alone and Angron beat the absolute breaks off him with ease. Argal Tal said that Guilliman had no hope against Angron as he watched.
He actually doesn't, he first has a short duel with lorgar, that is more evenly matched, before Angron takes his place and guilliman starts to lose. So he never fights them both at the same time.
Lorgar and Guiiliman fought first, then all three did for a brief time but Angron and Guilliman fought alone after that and Angron won, you can't make excuses saying he fought them both. When Angron beat him they fought alone for a long period. When Lorgar got out the way Argel said that Guilliman had no chance.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.
That's ridiculous, are you really suggesting that there is no situation where Kruze does not have a weapon.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.
I really wonder where Kurze could possibly hide a weapon in his birthday suit...
EDIT: oooooooooo in his stomach Orochimaru style!!!
Gordon Shumway wrote: I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.
That's ridiculous, are you really suggesting that there is no situation where Kruze does not have a weapon.
He is the 3 way love child of Batman, Loki and Deadpool.
Angron is the nastiest and will fight dirty. Magnus has magic. Ferrus can hit like a ton of bricks. Sounds like Russ has gotten taken out by two brothers already, so despite some people liking him (for some ungodly reason), he’s basically trash. Honestly though, given innate abilities, either Sanguinius or Curze would win; both are prescient, and will be able to see their opponent’s strike coming. Unless they CHOOSE to lose like they did in the lore. It would be ridiculously obnoxious to fight an enemy who knows what punch you’ll throw before you even know, yourself.
timetowaste85 wrote: Angron is the nastiest and will fight dirty. Magnus has magic. Ferrus can hit like a ton of bricks. Sounds like Russ has gotten taken out by two brothers already, so despite some people liking him (for some ungodly reason), he’s basically trash. Honestly though, given innate abilities, either Sanguinius or Curze would win; both are prescient, and will be able to see their opponent’s strike coming. Unless they CHOOSE to lose like they did in the lore. It would be ridiculously obnoxious to fight an enemy who knows what punch you’ll throw before you even know, yourself.
Beats Horus and is trash, do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Angron is the only one that beat him, the Lion sucker-punched him. Russ is up there in the top 5 in terms of duels and no biased feelings are going to make him trash.
timetowaste85 wrote: Angron is the nastiest and will fight dirty. Magnus has magic. Ferrus can hit like a ton of bricks. Sounds like Russ has gotten taken out by two brothers already, so despite some people liking him (for some ungodly reason), he’s basically trash. Honestly though, given innate abilities, either Sanguinius or Curze would win; both are prescient, and will be able to see their opponent’s strike coming. Unless they CHOOSE to lose like they did in the lore. It would be ridiculously obnoxious to fight an enemy who knows what punch you’ll throw before you even know, yourself.
Knowing it doesn't mean you can stop it. Farseers can see moments ahead in the same way yet they still die.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.
I really wonder where Kurze could possibly hide a weapon in his birthday suit...
EDIT: oooooooooo in his stomach Orochimaru style!!!
Pretty sure he’d have at least 20 knives, chainglaive and a Melta bomb concealed in an orifice
SeanDavid1991 wrote: On the front that Curze almost did Lion in. On the second fight it was role reversal. Curze had Lion done in an ambush.
The lion had learnt and had essentially Gohan vs Dyspo'd him.
... and we only know how that second fight ended. It could have been an even match, or it could have been after Curze had already fought and killed 50 Deathwing terminators. The latter is far more likely than the former.
The closest thing we have to a fair fight between the two is either the first fight (where Curze beats him) and on Ultramar (where Curze holds his own against both the Lion and Girlyman).
timetowaste85 wrote: Well, Russ is too busy scratching his fleas; Ferrus Manus could probably do a stealthy sucker punch while he's cleaning himself these days.
I mean, in all honesty, I have a heavy bias against Russ; he's a hypocritical a-hole of a Primarch. He hates psykers, but it's okay that his guys are psykers cuz "they do it differently". He's done a few things that go against "the rules" laid out to the Primarchs and Marines, but he's special and gets around them. I'm trying to remember back to A Thousand Sons/Burning of Prospero, and I just remember him demonstrating to his warriors that it was okay to be a jackass to the other Primarchs and order them around, treat none of the others with respect, and just be a prat in general. Those books were actually the reason I developed a hate for Russ; I was ecstatic when Magnus came back at the end of 7th and basically curbstomped the wolves. They deserve it. I don't deny that I'm biased. But it's with good reason.
Daemons, actually. I only have the one Noise Marine now (sold off the old stuff). And my wrists are fine. I handle a double handed blade in LARP/Dagorhir, so I'm good. But isn't this about the Primarchs slapping each other around? Let's get back to talking about Russ wearing a leash and peeing on hydrants when the Emperor used to let him go out in public.
I was actually just trying to have some fun in the thread; wasn't designed to be serious. But since you've moved on to personal attacks for no reason...reported for breaking rule #1 here. I mean, if you actually WERE Leman Russ, I could understand it. But you're attacking me for no reason while I'm bashing on a fictional character. The Mods can sort you out. No longer worth my time.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Guilliman does not fight Angron and Lorgar at the same time. Lorgar duelled with him and then stopped, THEN Guilliman and Angron duelled. Lorgar was busy bringing the power from the warp through to the materium. Angron and Guilliman fought alone and Angron beat the absolute breaks off him with ease. Argal Tal said that Guilliman had no hope against Angron as he watched.
Did you mean Lhorke? On page 394, quote "Guilliman had no hope against Angron", which I agree with. However, on the previous page (the same paragraph even!), Lhorke also says "Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them, until Lorgar ceased his attack and started his achingly resonant chant". Therefore, I do think it fair to assume that Guilliman was fighting both, until Lorgar disengages, and then starts buffing Angron indirectly from the Warp, and while not winning, the fact he could stand up to both and not just instantly get destroyed is something I've not seen from another Primarch yet - maybe except Kurze, who stands against both Guilliman and the Lion (but then, Kurze is using the surroundings to level the playing field - Guilliman doesn't have that here).
Also, nitpicking, but Angron doesn't "beat him easily" - Guilliman lands some serious hits in ("huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman's gauntlets") - but that's not to say Angron wasn't winning. Angron would have won, with or without Lorgar, but Angron wasn't destroying Guilliman with ease. This still supports what Lhorke says about Guilliman having no hope - it might not be quick and brutal, but rather longer and more drawn out pummeling.
Anything other than Angron is objectively wrong. Angron LITERALLY grew up as a gladiator. Considering all the Primarchs are psykers to one degree or another, I am absolutely certain Angrons rage will literally manifest to stop Magnus's or Lorgar's shenanigans and he will proceed to beat them to death with their own livers. Ferrus Manus? More like Ferrus Stop-hitting-yourself-us.
The dude, again LITERALLY got stomped on by a Titan AND WON.
And lets not forget that Angron beat multiple other Primarchs in fights before. He only "lost" the fight against Russ because he was more focused on killing Russ than surviving the actual battle. And even then he outright told Leman to kill him if he was man enough, and Leman didn't.
MinscS2 wrote: Vulkan is the only primarch who's also a perpetual, so he'd obviously win, given enough time.
I think it still counts as losing if he dies then respawns
"Dies"? He's a perpetual, he can't die. He just get's KO:ed and then wakes up some time later, ready for round two...or eightytwo. Eventually he will win.
MinscS2 wrote: Vulkan is the only primarch who's also a perpetual, so he'd obviously win, given enough time.
I think it still counts as losing if he dies then respawns
"Dies"? He's a perpetual, he can't die. He just get's KO:ed and then wakes up some time later, ready for round two...or eightytwo. Eventually he will win.
Except the OP's rules forbid that. Also, he goes crazy if killed enough. Curze accomplished that once. He can do it again.
MinscS2 wrote: Vulkan is the only primarch who's also a perpetual, so he'd obviously win, given enough time.
I think it still counts as losing if he dies then respawns
"Dies"? He's a perpetual, he can't die. He just get's KO:ed and then wakes up some time later, ready for round two...or eightytwo. Eventually he will win.
Except the OP's rules forbid that. Also, he goes crazy if killed enough. Curze accomplished that once. He can do it again.
The 'Stop resurrecting yourself' is an interesting variant on a classic theme.
Size and strength are very important in unarmed combat. Since all the primarchs are such skilled fighters i think it will mostly come down to physical might so vulkan wins.
kingheff wrote: Size and strength are very important in unarmed combat. Since all the primarchs are such skilled fighters i think it will mostly come down to physical might so vulkan wins.
I thought that Ferrus was supposed to be physically the strongest of the Primarchs. He died so early on we didn't get to see very much of this in action.
Dont forget the lion grew up on a deathworld fighting chaos beasts with no weapons or armour barring what he might of scavenged. That should make him a pretty good brawler, level headed in battle and a good strategist means he would be better than most.
Tbf i think it falls more into probable tiers than definitive list.
Lion, Angron and Russ as some of the more feral/pugellistic charachters.
The lion has his whole grand strategy thing, trained as knight for several types of fighting.
Angron is king brawler with the nails to buff his strength and stamina and debuff his strategy.
And russ is russ enough said as he is mr primarch stopper allegedly
Another vote for Angron. He's not the most brilliant commander, he's not the most charismatic leader, and he's not a psychic juggernaut. What he does do is break things into their component parts.
kingheff wrote: Size and strength are very important in unarmed combat. Since all the primarchs are such skilled fighters i think it will mostly come down to physical might so vulkan wins.
kingheff wrote: Size and strength are very important in unarmed combat. Since all the primarchs are such skilled fighters i think it will mostly come down to physical might so vulkan wins.
You've clearly never seen jiu jitsu in action.
Yes I have and if you look at competitive jiu jitsu it's divided into weight classes, like every single other combat sport. There's a reason for this, size and strength are virtually unassailable I between similarly skilled fighters.
kingheff wrote: Size and strength are very important in unarmed combat. Since all the primarchs are such skilled fighters i think it will mostly come down to physical might so vulkan wins.
You've clearly never seen jiu jitsu in action.
Yes I have and if you look at competitive jiu jitsu it's divided into weight classes, like every single other combat sport. There's a reason for this, size and strength are virtually unassailable I between similarly skilled fighters.
Then you should watch some of the early PRIDE FC exhibition fights with no weight divisions.
I've actually fought mma and still train in thai boxing and jiu jitsu. I can categorically and accurately state, that the most common factor that determines fight outcome against suitably and rather equally skilled opponents is physical attributes. It's once in a blue moon that a fighter comes about that is not athletically outstanding but is dominant, and that is usually down to fight IQ or what we know as strategic IQ.
Obviously the most dominating is the physically gifted genetic freak with the mind as sharp as an iron.
For those of you stating Ferrus, metal arms are no good if you can't land them. For those stating magnus, if you can avoid the psychic powers, do you understand how easy it is to get a larger foe on to the floor when you are smaller?
Karfang wrote: Dont forget the lion grew up on a deathworld fighting chaos beasts with no weapons or armour barring what he might of scavenged. That should make him a pretty good brawler, level headed in battle and a good strategist means he would be better than most.
Tbf i think it falls more into probable tiers than definitive list.
Lion, Angron and Russ as some of the more feral/pugellistic charachters.
The lion has his whole grand strategy thing, trained as knight for several types of fighting.
Angron is king brawler with the nails to buff his strength and stamina and debuff his strategy.
And russ is russ enough said as he is mr primarch stopper allegedly
Both the Lion and Russ have definitively lost fights to Curze and Angron, respectively. We absolutely know neither of them would be the winner.
Angron, Sanguinius, and Curze are all top tier. The latter two with their future sight, Angron with the Nails. I don't think we know how much a Primarch's Deny the Witch works against a Primarch, but we do know that Russ kicked the crap out of Magnus, although Russ's additional resistance to psyker magicks might have made the difference. The twins deserve more credit than they are getting, as there are two of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just found this.
Spoiler:
Before Loken could answer, Russ went on. 'In the old days, in the Crusade I thought I could beat most of my brothers. Maybe not Sanguinius. In him there is a fine blend of skill and fury. He is a baresark in angel's garb. Or the Night Haunter, for he has the heedless power of the insane. But the others… Angron? He's too angry. Fulgrim?' He shrugged. 'Too proud. Perturabo and Dorn are too stolid. Guilliman is too stern to enjoy battle and so I would beat him too. Lorgar I could spit on and that would drop him into the dirt, he's so weak from all that kneeling. Alpharius is a wretched serpent. And we all know what happened to the great sorcerer of Prospero. The rest I could defeat as easily as this.' He snapped his fingers. 'Horus though,' he grimaced. 'Put to it, one on one, I could have beaten him. It would have been hard, and close fought, and had fortune favoured him over me, he would have triumphed. But the feat was within my grasp. So tell me, Garviel Loken, is it now? Can I still kill him?'
Russ himself says that Sanguinius or Curze could probably beat him. I'm willing to take Leman at his word on this one.
It's difficult to back anything up here using the literature though because they are mostly outside the parameters of the question, eg using weapons, armour, battlefield scenario etc.
Seeing as unarmed combat is never really mentioned in descriptions of primarchs attributes, they are all basically on an even playing field. The only one with anything that can actively aid bare chested, unarmed one on one squared circle combat is Angron. There is the odd minor point, like magnus being very tall (and thus deductively having a longer reach than his shorter brothers)here and there but other than that you can't really say.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It could make for some cool short stories though, Primarch exhibition fights..
I don't know how closed the Arena is but if it has a high ceiling or no ceiling, I have to go with Sanguinius because he takes immense skill and physical prowess and combines it with flight. If the arena allows him to fly he gets to dictate the encounter. If he doesn't get to fly, he is still absurdly skilled and has a really vicious berserker rage if he needs it.
Oh yeah I forgot about sangy enhancements. I think it should be stipulated that the roof is low, only a few feet above his wing tops, that or his wings are bound to avoid giving an unfair advantage.
How fast can Vulkan heal? I don't remember if he needs to die for it to kick in or not? If he can basically wolverine his way back from anything short of death (which by the rules would knock him out) that's a huge advantage.
HoundsofDemos wrote: How fast can Vulkan heal? I don't remember if he needs to die for it to kick in or not? If he can basically wolverine his way back from anything short of death (which by the rules would knock him out) that's a huge advantage.
Poor ol' Lorgar. Not even a single vote? Well, I guess that's what one gets for being the biggest scumbag to crawl out of one of the Emperor's test tubes.
Darth Bob wrote:I'm not sure having Alpharius and Omegon fighting as a pair is really fair. Alpharius on his own almost killed Dorn in a duel, and even if they are smaller and physically weaker than their other brothers, the differences aren't so drastic that it's going to mean a 2v1 is fair. Moreso when you consider perfectly coordinated, multi-pronged attacks are literally the Alpha Legion's thing.
I only stipulated that they come as a pair because it's kind of their thing. As I said, the fight doesn't have to be fair if the benefit is fundamental to the character.
tneva82 wrote:Well word from authors is all are able to beat all depending.
This of course is the only really valid answer. The situation I propose is entirely without merit in relation to the actual lore, but people seem to enjoy these kinds of speculative exercises.
I can't recall how long I set this poll to expire, but interesting results so far.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Guilliman does not fight Angron and Lorgar at the same time. Lorgar duelled with him and then stopped, THEN Guilliman and Angron duelled. Lorgar was busy bringing the power from the warp through to the materium. Angron and Guilliman fought alone and Angron beat the absolute breaks off him with ease. Argal Tal said that Guilliman had no hope against Angron as he watched.
Did you mean Lhorke? On page 394, quote "Guilliman had no hope against Angron", which I agree with.
However, on the previous page (the same paragraph even!), Lhorke also says "Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them, until Lorgar ceased his attack and started his achingly resonant chant". Therefore, I do think it fair to assume that Guilliman was fighting both, until Lorgar disengages, and then starts buffing Angron indirectly from the Warp, and while not winning, the fact he could stand up to both and not just instantly get destroyed is something I've not seen from another Primarch yet - maybe except Kurze, who stands against both Guilliman and the Lion (but then, Kurze is using the surroundings to level the playing field - Guilliman doesn't have that here).
Also, nitpicking, but Angron doesn't "beat him easily" - Guilliman lands some serious hits in ("huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman's gauntlets") - but that's not to say Angron wasn't winning. Angron would have won, with or without Lorgar, but Angron wasn't destroying Guilliman with ease. This still supports what Lhorke says about Guilliman having no hope - it might not be quick and brutal, but rather longer and more drawn out pummeling.
Thank you Sgt_Smudge. I don't have the books any more so couldn't check for reference but this is the quote, I was just wrong with Argel Tal, but knew the quote was in there.
slave.entity wrote: If psychic powers are allowed Magnus wins because psychic powers are basically cheating.
If no psychic powers are allowed... I vote Horus Lupercal. The Luna Wolves were never the most powerful psykers, or the most meticulous strategists, or the most ferocious hand-to-hand combatants. Their chapter and primarch are characterized by an overwhelming pride and ambition that were only ever rivaled by the emperor Himself. If Horus really wanted to come out on top in this fist fight, then he would come out on top. No question.
After all, up until the Heresy Horus's entire character was defined by one trait: winning.
Here's proof that Horus wins this fight. If you don't believe me, then believe Leman Russ
Vengeful Spirit, chapter 3
Spoiler:
‘Horus Lupercal will kill you,’ said Loken.
Had he named any other individual, Loken had no doubt the Wolf King would have torn his throat out
before he’d even known what was happening. Instead, Russ nodded.
‘You’re right,’ he said, his eyes taking on a distant look as he relived old battles. ‘I’ve fought every one
of my brothers over the centuries, either in training or with blooded blade. I know for a fact I can kill any
one of them if had to… but Horus.’
Russ shook his head and his next words were spoken like a shameful confession, each one a bitter
curse.
‘He’s the only one I don’t know if I can beat.’
Meanwhile, in the real world outside of Furry Furringtons headcanon, Angron was one punch away from killing Leman Russ, and only lost because Russ had his lapdogs pointing heavy weaponry at him and sadly he had not yet found the method of turning Pure Rage into immortality.
slave.entity wrote: If psychic powers are allowed Magnus wins because psychic powers are basically cheating.
If no psychic powers are allowed... I vote Horus Lupercal. The Luna Wolves were never the most powerful psykers, or the most meticulous strategists, or the most ferocious hand-to-hand combatants. Their chapter and primarch are characterized by an overwhelming pride and ambition that were only ever rivaled by the emperor Himself. If Horus really wanted to come out on top in this fist fight, then he would come out on top. No question.
After all, up until the Heresy Horus's entire character was defined by one trait: winning.
Here's proof that Horus wins this fight. If you don't believe me, then believe Leman Russ
Vengeful Spirit, chapter 3
Spoiler:
‘Horus Lupercal will kill you,’ said Loken.
Had he named any other individual, Loken had no doubt the Wolf King would have torn his throat out
before he’d even known what was happening. Instead, Russ nodded.
‘You’re right,’ he said, his eyes taking on a distant look as he relived old battles. ‘I’ve fought every one
of my brothers over the centuries, either in training or with blooded blade. I know for a fact I can kill any
one of them if had to… but Horus.’
Russ shook his head and his next words were spoken like a shameful confession, each one a bitter
curse.
‘He’s the only one I don’t know if I can beat.’
Doesn't really work when later on Russ nearly kills Horus and only didn't because he wasn't okay killing another of his brothers.
Niiai wrote: The Lions track record is quite good.
No, it's not. The Lion lost his first fight against Curze, and it was unfair in the Lion's favor. It started with the Lion sucker-stabbing Curze in the gut, was closely matched sword against claws, and then ended in a Curze win with Curze choking the life out of the Lion. The only reason the Lion didn't die was due to outside interference.... and that was a match that started will for the Lion. Deprived of weapons, at full health, and without outside influence, Curze defeats the Lion, no contest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Characters that are definitely out: Lion (lost to Curze solidly in a fight that a brawl), Dorn, Russ (solid loss to Angron), Lorgar, Guilliman (almost killed by a handful of Alpha Legionnaires, ran from Angron, etc).
I have my doubts: Fulgrim,
Crap! Time for work. Will finish this later. Maybe we should do a bracket, since its March Madness, and pair random primarchs in brawls and see who wins by vote.
The Lion then beat the crap out of Curze the next two fights. The Lion beat Curze so bad the third time I still consider him having killed Curze. Only reason he didnt is because Sanguinius told him not to.
buddha wrote: Ferris Manus for sure. In straight fist fight his fists are freaking living metal.
As much as I'd like to say Russ I think Ferrus has the best shot in straight fist-fighting and his fury is renown. I could see Ferrus and Angron go blow for blow until they both collapsed.
If Magnus gets to use his psychic powers, he wins, hands down. He can crush a titan with his mind, and would make short work of the other primarchs (with the possible exception of Russ due to psychic resistance).
Otherwise, Angron. Melee combat was the red angel's thing, he lived and breathed it nonstop for his entire life.
I disagree with the assessment that allowing Psyker abilities for Magnus and Lorgar would automatically result in their uncontested victory.
Against anything EXCEPT a being as compact, warp-resistant, strong, and fast as a primarch, they're an I Win button because they're so versatile and can bypass so many defenses.
Against a primarch, however, by the time even a psyker as masterful as Magnus can bring their effects to bear, they've got an angry primarch throwing concentration-destroying punches at or through their heads/hearts/spleen.
By no means would they be unable to use them at all (even if warp-resistant, they'll still hurt or maim if given the chance), but they're not even close to an I Win button.
They do certainly jump a few tiers in effective capability, though, given none of the primarchs can soak up a balefire blast or the like with their armor.
Not enough to win, but enough to be better contenders than they used to be.
I'm partial to Angron, Sanguinius, Ferrus, Leman, and Lion contending for the top spots, with the psykers, Vulkan, Kurse, and Horus close behind.
There's definitely some Rock-Paper-Scissors going on, but those 5 will be winning the most 1v1s.
Agreed on Unusual Suspect's argument. IIRC, due to the Emperor's method of creating them, all of the Primarchs were psychically active to an extent, even Angron. Perhaps not "psykers" but certainly enough that with their strength of will they could resist a psychic attack.
I agree. Abilties like Corax's invisibility or Curze's precognition don't seem to be like conventional psychic powers but I am pretty sure they are warp-based.
In my head-canon, psychic powers are skills that a psyker learns how to generate and manifest using their innate psychic strength. Most of the Primarch's abilities seem to "static". They are hard-wired abilities that they do not have to learn how to use. They just happen. The flip-side is that they cannot learn new psychic powers like a true psyker.
We can't really ever say "X beat Y so X will always beat Y" combat is so full of factors, terrain, mental motivation, what the fighters had for breakfest as well as changing levels of skill etc. there's also a little bit oif blind luck
Bharring wrote: Magnus. The others all show up without their gear/weapons. Per OP, Magnus still has the Warp.
So he'll be slinging around laser beams and eldrich fire, while the others are throwing punches.
Wouldn't that obviate the scenario as a fistfight? If magnus is using mental powers, then Kurze is just planting a 10 ton blockbuster and showing up conveniently late...
"Wouldn't that obviate the scenario as a fistfight? If magnus is using mental powers, then Kurze is just planting a 10 ton blockbuster and showing up conveniently late..."
I would agree, generally. But in this thread, specifically, Magnus's powers are in but no gear is in:
From the OP:
"To keep the question specific, I'll impose the following parameters:
- No armour, no weapons, birthday suits only.
- [...]
- Certain character defining characteristics are allowed, even if they seem to contradict the first parameter, meaning things like Magnus's psychic prowess and Ferrus Manus's arms."
Automatically Appended Next Post: "And if we're going that route, can you really win a fistfight against a big strong dude who can't ever permanently die?"
Again, the specifics have been set in the OP as:
"With respect to Vulkan, I'm only looking for whom kills whom first, so he still loses even he's not permanently dead."
So yes, someone can win vs Vulkan.
Bharring wrote: "Wouldn't that obviate the scenario as a fistfight? If magnus is using mental powers, then Kurze is just planting a 10 ton blockbuster and showing up conveniently late..."
I would agree, generally. But in this thread, specifically, Magnus's powers are in but no gear is in:
From the OP:
"To keep the question specific, I'll impose the following parameters:
- No armour, no weapons, birthday suits only.
- [...]
- Certain character defining characteristics are allowed, even if they seem to contradict the first parameter, meaning things like Magnus's psychic prowess and Ferrus Manus's arms."
Automatically Appended Next Post: "And if we're going that route, can you really win a fistfight against a big strong dude who can't ever permanently die?"
Again, the specifics have been set in the OP as:
"With respect to Vulkan, I'm only looking for whom kills whom first, so he still loses even he's not permanently dead."
So yes, someone can win vs Vulkan.
If you want to interpret the question as "who's the fiercest pre-heresy brawler" then I'm pretty sure Leman Russ and all of the other primarchs would agree that it's Horus. He was always big brother compared to the rest. Curze and Angron may rank highly due to crazy points, while Lion and Russ do well with their renowned might and savagery, but in terms of actually going the distance and winning? It's Horus. He's the only one with the ambition and the strength to act on it.
Gordon Shumway wrote: As far as we know, who was the first primarch to actively try to kill another? Was it Kurze vs. Dorn?
If we're discounting Russ vs the Mysterious Two, wouldn't it also be Russ and Angron? I am pretty sure Angron doesn't ever NOT actively try to kill anything he fights.
Gordon Shumway wrote: As far as we know, who was the first primarch to actively try to kill another? Was it Kurze vs. Dorn?
If we're discounting Russ vs the Mysterious Two, wouldn't it also be Russ and Angron? I am pretty sure Angron doesn't ever NOT actively try to kill anything he fights.
I fully refuse to believe the second legion's primarch is dead. GW saved it for conversions initially, and when their stock is in dire straits, they will come up with somnew army for it. When was the first Russ Angron fight? By my reckoning, Kurze v. Dorn was about twenty years before the heresy, a few years after Kurze was first let in on the Grand Plan.
Russ vs Angron was also pre-heresy. Russ was genuinely worried about the increasing level of needless violence caused by the World Eaters and came to tell Angron to stop that crap. Angron outright asks Russ if he's been sent to kill him by the Totally Not A God Emperor. Russ says no, not yet anyway, and asks Angron to come to Terra to get the Butchers Nails removed and to get his head fixed. Angron told Russ that the Emperor was just another slavemaster, and that he might go to Terra and try and kill daddy.
Needless to say, Russ did not take that very well.
Angron won the fight against Russ, and had Russ as his mercy, but wasn't so far gone as to take the Double Kill since he had a large chunk of Space Wolf legion pointing guns at him. Needless to say I doubt that at no point during that fight Angron would not have been trying to kill Russ.
BaconCatBug wrote: Russ vs Angron was also pre-heresy. Russ was genuinely worried about the increasing level of needless violence caused by the World Eaters and came to tell Angron to stop that crap. Angron outright asks Russ if he's been sent to kill
him by the Totally Not A God Emperor. Russ says no, not yet anyway, and asks Angron to come to Terra to get the Butchers Nails removed and to get his head fixed. Angron told Russ that the Emperor was just another slavemaster, and that he might go to Terra and try and kill daddy.
Needless to say, Russ did not take that very well.
Angron won the fight against Russ, and had Russ as his mercy, but wasn't so far gone as to take the Double Kill since he had a large chunk of Space Wolf legion pointing guns at him. Needless to say I doubt that at no point during that fight Angron would not have been trying to kill Russ.
Is there a novel that that story is told in? I ama bit behind in my reading of HH (for the love of all that you consider holy, if you haven't read The Three Body Problem trilogy, you are doing yourself a disservice t sci fi.) so I probably missed it.
BaconCatBug wrote: Russ vs Angron was also pre-heresy. Russ was genuinely worried about the increasing level of needless violence caused by the World Eaters and came to tell Angron to stop that crap. Angron outright asks Russ if he's been sent to kill
him by the Totally Not A God Emperor. Russ says no, not yet anyway, and asks Angron to come to Terra to get the Butchers Nails removed and to get his head fixed. Angron told Russ that the Emperor was just another slavemaster, and that he might go to Terra and try and kill daddy.
Needless to say, Russ did not take that very well.
Angron won the fight against Russ, and had Russ as his mercy, but wasn't so far gone as to take the Double Kill since he had a large chunk of Space Wolf legion pointing guns at him. Needless to say I doubt that at no point during that fight Angron would not have been trying to kill Russ.
Is there a novel that that story is told in? I ama bit behind in my reading of HH (for the love of all that you consider holy, if you haven't read The Three Body Problem trilogy, you are doing yourself a disservice t sci fi.) so I probably missed it.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: If magnus is using powers, then it's not a fist fight. Surely the clue is in the name.
It doesn't matter, that is the parameters the OP has laid out. Magnus throwing around warpfire, breaking primarch's spines with telekenesis and opening black holes is going to beat the other primarchs in their "birthday suits" easily.
I would say that second place would be Lorgar for the same reasons, but as OP specified we are only to consider pre-daemonic ascension versions of the primarchs.
Sorry, no way even Angron with just his fists is going to beat Magnus with his full psychic might. The only person who possibly could is Russ, and that is because Russ is stated in lore to have an "unusually high" resistance to psychic attacks, as in unusually high for even a primarch.
Heh, it's sort of like asking religious scholars to define something. Every example of something has an equal example of something else. Good on GW for making the lore of the gods of the stars similar to the gods of the earth.
w1zard wrote: Sorry, no way even Angron with just his fists is going to beat Magnus with his full psychic might. The only person who possibly could is Russ, and that is because Russ is stated in lore to have an "unusually high" resistance to psychic attacks, as in unusually high for even a primarch.
Angron is also a pretty powerful latent psyker the same way the Russ is. He fistfought a Titan and won you know.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Heh, it's sort of like asking religious scholars to define something. Every example of something has an equal example of something else. Good on GW for making the lore of the gods of the stars similar to the gods of the earth.
Part of the magic of 40k is there's something for everyone. And the writers have generally been good at keeping it this way.
Is there a novel that that story is told in? I ama bit behind in my reading of HH (for the love of all that you consider holy, if you haven't read The Three Body Problem trilogy, you are doing yourself a disservice t sci fi.) so I probably missed it.
It is referred to as the "Night of the Wolf" and is in the nivel "Betrayer". Russ tried to teach Angron a tactical lesson in the only language he seemed to understand. In going for the kill, Angron left himself and his legion exposed. Angron refused to learn the lesson, arguing that the kill was all that mattered. He had Russ at his mercy and that meant, as far as he was concerned, he had won.
Angron later recounted this story to Lorgar who basically face-palmed at Angron's sheer bloody-mindedness.
By allowing psychic powers, even if he can only use it to amp himself, Magnus would win, and no other choice is worth entertaining.
Put it this way: we have seen how the Primarchs handle being punched by one another. Ferrus Manus, both one of the physically strongest and imposing Primarchs as well as having hands made out of a living metal that is so ridiculously durable he can shape weapons with his bare hands, was only able to slightly bruise Fulgrim with a punch to the face.
Magnus, when amplifying his punch with his psychic power, was able to shatter Leman Russ' breastplate and puncture one of his hearts. And this against a Primarch who canonically has exceptional psychic resistance among his brothers, and while holding back the entire Space Wolves legion along with the Custodian Guard and, get this, Sisters of Silence, while he was meanwhile channeling a spell to save his entire Legion.
Other Primarchs are quicker, more adept at brawling, or even physically stronger, but that suddenly is no longer true once Magnus taps into his psychic power. He would be able to physically maim his brothers. They wouldn't be able to guard a punch because it would shatter the bones and pulp their organs.
There is a reason why when Magnus was released he was hilariously overpowered, and rather than nerfing his power they opted to just make him like 175 points more expensive than any other Primarch.
Because Magnus is the most powerful Primarch, full stop, and even with the plot on his side Leman Russ barely pulled through.
Is there a novel that that story is told in? I ama bit behind in my reading of HH (for the love of all that you consider holy, if you haven't read The Three Body Problem trilogy, you are doing yourself a disservice t sci fi.) so I probably missed it.
It is referred to as the "Night of the Wolf" and is in the nivel "Betrayer". Russ tried to teach Angron a tactical lesson in the only language he seemed to understand. In going for the kill, Angron left himself and his legion exposed. Angron refused to learn the lesson, arguing that the kill was all that mattered. He had Russ at his mercy and that meant, as far as he was concerned, he had won.
Angron later recounted this story to Lorgar who basically face-palmed at Angron's sheer bloody-mindedness.
and Lorgar proably is a better judge of those things then we are
Is flying significant enough to matter? Because if flying can keep them out of effective range. Then the Daemon Primarchs all have an advantage. No matter how strong you are, if you can't even touch that Daemon Primarch flying 20 feet above you, then you are in a no win situation.
And yet, if you say that the environment is so restrictive that flying is a mote point, that takes away a key advantage of the Daemon Primarchs ... who can all fly.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Is flying significant enough to matter? Because if flying can keep them out of effective range. Then the Daemon Primarchs all have an advantage. No matter how strong you are, if you can't even touch that Daemon Primarch flying 20 feet above you, then you are in a no win situation.
And yet, if you say that the environment is so restrictive that flying is a mote point, that takes away a key advantage of the Daemon Primarchs ... who can all fly.
The OP states all preheresy. No deamon enhancements. The only one who would have flight is Sanguinus.
In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...
Dakka Wolf wrote: In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...
I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.
Dakka Wolf wrote: In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point. The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch. The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...
I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.
Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.
I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.
Dakka Wolf wrote: In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...
I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.
Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.
I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.
If your objective is to kill someone no matter what and you kill them then that's a win.
Dakka Wolf wrote: In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...
I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.
Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.
I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.
When did Russ claim he had beaten the Lion? In Leman Russ he tells a Blood Claw that the Lion beat him bloody and could do it again andin Wolfsbane he points out the Primarchs who he couldn’t beat and I found it interesting that neither Lion nor Angron make the cut, neither is actually claiming he won the fight with the Lion. Is there another reference?
I would say Leman Russ, people from Fenris tend to be brutal fighters, and I think that would apply to the wolven Primarch himself. The Emperor didn't make him his executioner without reason.
Dakka Wolf wrote: In Wolfsbane Russ puts his money on Sanguinius and Kurze as the only two Primarchs he couldn't beat in single combat, an interesting statement considering that he'd already been beaten by The Lion and Angron and broken Magnus' back at this point.
The more interesting part is his reasoning - Kurze is a psycho and Sanguinius is a psycho with an on/off switch.
The most interesting part being Russ doesn't consider Angron a contender or a psycho...
I think his logic was more he already beat Angron at that point in terms of killing him.
Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron. The only reason he is even alive is because Angron valued being alive over killing Russ (which was uncharacteristic but perhaps the Nails were giving him a good day). Russ also applies the same Mental Gymnastics to the Lion fight because he claims he was sucker punched after deciding they shouldn't fight anymore.
I miss when the Space Wolves were Space Vikings and not Space Massive Hypocritical Tools.
When did Russ claim he had beaten the Lion? In Leman Russ he tells a Blood Claw that the Lion beat him bloody and could do it again andin Wolfsbane he points out the Primarchs who he couldn’t beat and I found it interesting that neither Lion nor Angron make the cut, neither is actually claiming he won the fight with the Lion. Is there another reference?
Russ never claimed he ahd beat them, he simply thought he could take them now, in the case of the Lion he likely felt he had the Lion's measure now and could beat him next fight (weather thats true or just russ being an idiot who can tell)
BaconCatBug wrote: Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron....
Russ is pretty good at using olympic levels of mental gymnastics for pretty much everything he does. Especially when he revealed to Sanguinius, Khan, and Dorn that he had been using rune priests ever since Nikaea, and this was after he had taken out Prospero. Dorn promptly calls Russ out on his hypocrisy, and Russ' only response was that Nikaea somehow didn't apply to him because his psykers were different or something. Dorn turns to Sanguinius and Khan for backup and they just say they thought that the Emperor made the wrong call at Nikaea anyway, and that censuring Russ at that moment (heresy in full swing) would be counterproductive.
Still not sure how Russ managed to emerge from that whole debacle as the "good guy", and not executed for treason. Huge pet peeve of mine, but I realize this isn't the place to rehash that discussion.
I do acknowledge that Russ technically beat Magnus in their duel, but only because Russ had unique abilities that were pretty much tailor made to fight someone like Magnus, and Magnus was pretty much singlehandedly holding back the entire Space Wolf legion + Sisters of silence, while simultaneously channeling a spell to teleport the 1000 sons across the galaxy (stated in universe to be the most powerful teleportation spell ever uttered by a living being), and Russ still got smacked around pretty badly by Magnus anyway.
Some people call me a Magnus fanboy, but I just think I'm being realistic about the fighting abilities of all of the Primarchs. Reality bending magics beat mundane muscle any day.
BaconCatBug wrote: Russ is using Olympic Levels of Mental Gymnastics to say he beat Angron....
Russ is pretty good at using olympic levels of mental gymnastics for pretty much everything he does. Especially when he revealed to Sanguinius, Khan, and Dorn that he had been using rune priests ever since Nikaea, and this was after he had taken out Prospero. Dorn promptly calls Russ out on his hypocrisy, and Russ' only response was that Nikaea somehow didn't apply to him because his psykers were different or something. Dorn turns to Sanguinius and Khan for backup and they just say they thought that the Emperor made the wrong call at Nikaea anyway, and that censuring Russ at that moment (heresy in full swing) would be counterproductive.
Still not sure how Russ managed to emerge from that whole debacle as the "good guy", and not executed for treason. Huge pet peeve of mine, but I realize this isn't the place to rehash that discussion.
I do acknowledge that Russ technically beat Magnus in their duel, but only because Russ had unique abilities that were pretty much tailor made to fight someone like Magnus, and Magnus was pretty much singlehandedly holding back the entire Space Wolf legion + Sisters of silence, while simultaneously channeling a spell to teleport the 1000 sons across the galaxy (stated in universe to be the most powerful teleportation spell ever uttered by a living being), and Russ still got smacked around pretty badly by Magnus anyway.
Some people call me a Magnus fanboy, but I just think I'm being realistic about the fighting abilities of all of the Primarchs. Reality bending magics beat mundane muscle any day.
No you're basically right. We see how Roboute Guilliman fares against a considerably weaker sorcerer in the form of Kor Phaeron.
Not well.
And Lorgar of course easily put Angron on his ass.
And Malcador, who is canonically inferior to Magnus, could knock Angron out with a touch and, get this, literally strangled Horus telekinetically and had him at his mercy, to the part where the Khan could only impotently beg Malcador to stop.
In terms of physical abilities, the Primarchs vary, but only in the same way that real life athletes vary. Vulkan is physically stronger than Fulgrim, but only the same way Mark Henry is stronger than John Cena. Vulkan is stronger than Fulgrim, but not to the point where it's like a battle between a human and a superhuman.
That is how a fight between Magnus and any brother sans Russ or one of the other notably psychic Primarchs would go. Magnus, as we have seen, can literally empower his punches to shatter Leman Russ' armour and puncture one of his hearts. He would maim any of his brothers simply through amplifying his physical power alone, much less more impressive displays of psychic power.
Barring psychic clownery though, one Primarch being slept on is Konrad Curze, who frankly has some of the best brawling feats of any Primarch. Remember, this is a fist fight, no weapons. Leman Russ is a superb warrior, but barehanded he fought a stalemate with the Lion. By comparison, even after literally stabbing him with a cheap shot, when Curze managed to force their duel into a barehanded brawl he beat the gak out of the Lion. He also nearly killed Dorn with his bare hands once.
When it comes to down and dirty gutter fighting Curze is tough to beat.
Jazzylee wrote: I would say Leman Russ, people from Fenris tend to be brutal fighters, and I think that would apply to the wolven Primarch himself. The Emperor didn't make him his executioner without reason.
I'd question that.
The Wolves were the executioners before Russ took leadership of them.
Since the Emperor has never stated that Russ is his Executioner to the readers and the other Primarchs kind of snort at the idea I'm beginning to wonder if he didn’t just inherit the name along with the the VI Legion and kind of take their title to heart.
KiloFiX wrote: Well Fulgrim actually beat Ferrus - and I’m not talking about Isstvan but rather prior to that on Ferrus’s ship. Ferrus only lived then because Fulgrim spared him because of sentimentality.
As for Russ - he wounded post-Molech-Chaos-powered Horus.
Edit - And Russ was built to kill other Primarch.
Angron is angry and brutal but not actually a skillful duelist.
First off Fulgrim cheap shotted Ferrus and Fulgrim had a hammer.
Ferrus would obliterate Fulgrim in a straight MMA style fight.
I see a lot of votes for Angron but I think he is to angry to win this contest. He loses discipline and would be outsmarted by several of his brothers. Vulkan is a beast when he's angry and he is one of the largest brothers physically. He would be tough. Russ is the Primarch killer but he knows there were a few he could not beat.
Given the conditions of this fight, Ferrus would very likely win. I mean he has metal arms to start with and was the best general of them all. I know this is a hand to hand brawl but Ferrus knew what he was and embraced it. He was a living weapon. The only reason he was defeated by Fulgrim was because Pretty Boy let the Daemon take over his body.
SickSix wrote: ...Given the conditions of this fight, Ferrus would very likely win...
I know the dude that has metal hands seems like a good bet in a fist fight, but being one of only three primarchs killed by another primarch makes him a pretty bad choice. If he couldn't win against daemon Fulgrim he wouldn't stand a chance against say... Angron, Russ, Lion El'Jonson, or Curze in CQC. Perturabo was even able to go toe to toe with daemon Fulgrim without getting his head cut off, and Perturabo isn't even known for his dueling prowess.
) feel free to share that too!
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Well, I guess that's what one gets for being the biggest scumbag to crawl out of one of the Emperor's test tubes. 
