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 EmpNortonII wrote:

Guilliman (almost killed by a handful of Alpha Legionnaires, ran from Angron, etc).

ok first of all that was a fully armed alpha legion kill team in an enslcosed space with automatic weapons against a unarmed Primarch caught off guard, and he STILL won. That's a plus side for Gulliman. only in your frankly bizzare world is this somehow proof Gulliman is weak,

as for running from Angron, that was after Angron was turned into a fething deamon prince! something Gulliman had never experianced before, running then wasn't a sign he was super duper weak for a primarch (unless you can provide proof of ANY primarch crossing blades with a deamon prince and winning?) in fact the only primarch whom has on record crossed blades with a deamon prince and survived to tell the story is Gulliman, whom has fought Angron (during the Heresy) and magnus and Mortarian post Heresy

Angron actually won that duel against guilliman and was only stopped from delivering the killing blow by his ascension to deamonhood.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So far as I'm aware, The Lion is the only one to have actually won a bout of fisticuffs - and that was against Leman Russ.

That's a pretty decent indicator of who might be the champion pugilist.

I fear Angron would be somewhat hampered by his Butcher's Nails, as he may be at a disadvantage against a calmer, more calculating brother.

Not necessarily.. Pure aggression can be an advantage, if you want proof watch some of the old pride videos of fighters like wanderlei silva or mauricio rua.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's difficult to say really, as we know little about their hand to hand combat ability, or their stats, height, weight, reach etc, which are necessary for a proper analysis of hand to hand ability.

I'm going to vote for my boy Angron though.

Angron beat Russ in a fist fight during the night of the Wolf. Angron is the best one on one fighter, he made Guilliman crawl away from him on his hands and knees, Sanguinius and Horus are the only two that could compete with him but Sanguinius is more of just a swordsman. Angron and Horus are the top two in my opinion. Vulken was the strongest physically but anyone knows anything about fighting knows skill and speed are far greater assets than raw strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jorim wrote:
Angron actually won that duel against guilliman and was only stopped from delivering the killing blow by his ascension to deamonhood.

Not true, Guilliman crawled away and was then surrounded by his honour guard.

1) Angron (cos pit fights are my thing, baby)
2) Russ (put in a good showing against daemon Horus).
2) Lion (has great physicality and skill, but grew up alone on a chaos world so knows you've sometimes got to fight dirty to beat superior opponents -think Deadpool 2 Collosus)
4) Horus (should place higher than Lion but is too proud and arrogant which holds him back when fighting opponents he doesn't outclass)
5) twins
5) twins
7) Lorgar (hides in the shadows, gets others to do his fights for him, got a nasty punch when needed)
8) Ferrus Manus (got a mean set of hands if he can keep his head)
9) Rogal Dorn (his name means imperial fist)
10) Guillinan (he has to place in the top half as he is heroic, but he's also boring)
11) Curze (hides in the shadows, got a nasty punch when needed)
12) Perturabo
12) Mortarion
12) missing Primarch A
12) missing Primarch 1
16) Jagged Eye Can (he's barely even a named character; he's the 'space marine biker' to Guiliman's 'Marneus Calgar')
17) Corax (hides in the shadows)
18) Fulgrim (too sentimental)
18) Sanguinius (too sentimental)
20) Magnus (consorts with daemons, screws things up by trying to fix them)
21) the one who is so forgettable I can't remember
22) honourable mention young man Sigismond.
23) honourable mention Abaddon
24) honourable mention clone Manuss
25) honourable mention Jedi ghost Manus
26) dishonourable mention clone Horus

Yeah Russ has gone way up in my estimation after beating Horus, because Horus had already been to Molech and got his god powers and people say the spear never misses, but that's nonsense as Horus was able to bring the emperor himself low, so if that happened to the Emperor himself then a weapon he made isn't going to do much. Also Leman fought Horus after fighting through the Vengeful Spirit, Horus was fresh as a daisy for that fight.

If we're talking all against all in a big pit then my money is on Angron or Sanguinius.

Angron is basically built for this, he is happy to fight tooth and claw and never gives up or knows when he is beaten.

Sanguinius would win if he fought smart, big IF. He could fl up and not engage his brothers whilst they beat the crap out of each other and then swoop down and take out the stragglers. He's very fast and even amoungst his brother is considered perhaps the best fighter. Couple that with his psykic powers of being able to see the future and presumably denying the witch and he is onto a winner.
Unfortunatly I suspect he is more likely to jump straight into the middle and try to get the other to stop, either that or decide it would be dishonourable to fight from the air as his brother couldn't but if he played to win I think he would.

Well word from authors is all are able to beat all depending.

 KiloFiX wrote:


Russ, Fulgrim are the deadliest 1 on 1 duelists.

The Khan is supposedly up there as is Sanguinius, you mention him below but he's supposedly one of the most competent with a blade. I wouldn't say Russ is a great duellist but he's certainly suited to a brawl.

BrianDavion wrote:

as for running from Angron, that was after Angron was turned into a fething deamon prince! something Gulliman had never experianced before, running then wasn't a sign he was super duper weak for a primarch (unless you can provide proof of ANY primarch crossing blades with a deamon prince and winning?) in fact the only primarch whom has on record crossed blades with a deamon prince and survived to tell the story is Gulliman, whom has fought Angron (during the Heresy) and magnus and Mortarian post Heresy

Even Argel Tal in Betrayer comments comments at how well Guilliman is doing against Angron and Lorgar. He takes them both on at the same time. He starts to give ground but it's no mean feat taking on 2 Primarchs.

tneva82 wrote:
Well word from authors is all are able to beat all depending.

And I think this to be true. At certain times throughout the series we've had reflections from various Primarchs musing on who they could beat and others who have thought which ones could beat others. We have to put some of this down to arrogance and opinion but most of it would be truth.

It all depends on who is fighting who, perhaps we should pick 2 out and put them against each other and move down the list? Some obviously are better all rounders, others are more fighty. I mean all were created with military knowledge and fighting prowess ingrained into their very being so they are all as deadly as each other, it's there individual traits that will either hinder or help them.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:


Russ, Fulgrim are the deadliest 1 on 1 duelists.

The Khan is supposedly up there as is Sanguinius, you mention him below but he's supposedly one of the most competent with a blade. I wouldn't say Russ is a great duellist but he's certainly suited to a brawl.

BrianDavion wrote:

as for running from Angron, that was after Angron was turned into a fething deamon prince! something Gulliman had never experianced before, running then wasn't a sign he was super duper weak for a primarch (unless you can provide proof of ANY primarch crossing blades with a deamon prince and winning?) in fact the only primarch whom has on record crossed blades with a deamon prince and survived to tell the story is Gulliman, whom has fought Angron (during the Heresy) and magnus and Mortarian post Heresy

Even Argel Tal in Betrayer comments comments at how well Guilliman is doing against Angron and Lorgar. He takes them both on at the same time. He starts to give ground but it's no mean feat taking on 2 Primarchs.

tneva82 wrote:
Well word from authors is all are able to beat all depending.

And I think this to be true. At certain times throughout the series we've had reflections from various Primarchs musing on who they could beat and others who have thought which ones could beat others. We have to put some of this down to arrogance and opinion but most of it would be truth.

It all depends on who is fighting who, perhaps we should pick 2 out and put them against each other and move down the list? Some obviously are better all rounders, others are more fighty. I mean all were created with military knowledge and fighting prowess ingrained into their very being so they are all as deadly as each other, it's there individual traits that will either hinder or help them.

The Khan isn't up anywhere, in Scars it is specifically spelled out that the Khan and Mortarian are the only to unknowns in regards to who would win in a fight between Primarchs.


Guilliman does not fight Angron and Lorgar at the same time. Lorgar duelled with him and then stopped, THEN Guilliman and Angron duelled. Lorgar was busy bringing the power from the warp through to the materium. Angron and Guilliman fought alone and Angron beat the absolute breaks off him with ease. Argal Tal said that Guilliman had no hope against Angron as he watched.

He actually doesn't, he first has a short duel with lorgar, that is more evenly matched, before Angron takes his place and guilliman starts to lose. So he never fights them both at the same time.

Ok guys, you know best.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Ok guys, you know best.

Lorgar and Guiiliman fought first, then all three did for a brief time but Angron and Guilliman fought alone after that and Angron won, you can't make excuses saying he fought them both. When Angron beat him they fought alone for a long period. When Lorgar got out the way Argel said that Guilliman had no chance.

I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.

That's ridiculous, are you really suggesting that there is no situation where Kruze does not have a weapon.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.

I really wonder where Kurze could possibly hide a weapon in his birthday suit...

EDIT: oooooooooo in his stomach Orochimaru style!!!

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.

That's ridiculous, are you really suggesting that there is no situation where Kruze does not have a weapon.

He is the 3 way love child of Batman, Loki and Deadpool.

Of course he has a magic pocket full of weapons.

On the front that Curze almost did Lion in. On the second fight it was role reversal. Curze had Lion done in an ambush.

The lion had learnt and had essentially Gohan vs Dyspo'd him.

Angron is the nastiest and will fight dirty. Magnus has magic. Ferrus can hit like a ton of bricks. Sounds like Russ has gotten taken out by two brothers already, so despite some people liking him (for some ungodly reason), he’s basically trash. Honestly though, given innate abilities, either Sanguinius or Curze would win; both are prescient, and will be able to see their opponent’s strike coming. Unless they CHOOSE to lose like they did in the lore. It would be ridiculously obnoxious to fight an enemy who knows what punch you’ll throw before you even know, yourself.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Angron is the nastiest and will fight dirty. Magnus has magic. Ferrus can hit like a ton of bricks. Sounds like Russ has gotten taken out by two brothers already, so despite some people liking him (for some ungodly reason), he’s basically trash. Honestly though, given innate abilities, either Sanguinius or Curze would win; both are prescient, and will be able to see their opponent’s strike coming. Unless they CHOOSE to lose like they did in the lore. It would be ridiculously obnoxious to fight an enemy who knows what punch you’ll throw before you even know, yourself.

Beats Horus and is trash, do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Angron is the only one that beat him, the Lion sucker-punched him. Russ is up there in the top 5 in terms of duels and no biased feelings are going to make him trash.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Angron is the nastiest and will fight dirty. Magnus has magic. Ferrus can hit like a ton of bricks. Sounds like Russ has gotten taken out by two brothers already, so despite some people liking him (for some ungodly reason), he’s basically trash. Honestly though, given innate abilities, either Sanguinius or Curze would win; both are prescient, and will be able to see their opponent’s strike coming. Unless they CHOOSE to lose like they did in the lore. It would be ridiculously obnoxious to fight an enemy who knows what punch you’ll throw before you even know, yourself.

Knowing it doesn't mean you can stop it. Farseers can see moments ahead in the same way yet they still die.

 skchsan wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I know you said no weapons allowed, but do you really think Kurze is going to follow your rules? He will have a blade hidden on himself somewhere.

I really wonder where Kurze could possibly hide a weapon in his birthday suit...

EDIT: oooooooooo in his stomach Orochimaru style!!!

Pretty sure he’d have at least 20 knives, chainglaive and a Melta bomb concealed in an orifice

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
On the front that Curze almost did Lion in. On the second fight it was role reversal. Curze had Lion done in an ambush.

The lion had learnt and had essentially Gohan vs Dyspo'd him.

... and we only know how that second fight ended. It could have been an even match, or it could have been after Curze had already fought and killed 50 Deathwing terminators. The latter is far more likely than the former.

The closest thing we have to a fair fight between the two is either the first fight (where Curze beats him) and on Ultramar (where Curze holds his own against both the Lion and Girlyman).

Well, Russ is too busy scratching his fleas; Ferrus Manus could probably do a stealthy sucker punch while he's cleaning himself these days.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well, Russ is too busy scratching his fleas; Ferrus Manus could probably do a stealthy sucker punch while he's cleaning himself these days.

At least he doesn't follow the weakest god.

Malal?


I mean, in all honesty, I have a heavy bias against Russ; he's a hypocritical a-hole of a Primarch. He hates psykers, but it's okay that his guys are psykers cuz "they do it differently". He's done a few things that go against "the rules" laid out to the Primarchs and Marines, but he's special and gets around them. I'm trying to remember back to A Thousand Sons/Burning of Prospero, and I just remember him demonstrating to his warriors that it was okay to be a jackass to the other Primarchs and order them around, treat none of the others with respect, and just be a prat in general. Those books were actually the reason I developed a hate for Russ; I was ecstatic when Magnus came back at the end of 7th and basically curbstomped the wolves. They deserve it. I don't deny that I'm biased. But it's with good reason.

Daemons, actually. I only have the one Noise Marine now (sold off the old stuff). And my wrists are fine. I handle a double handed blade in LARP/Dagorhir, so I'm good. But isn't this about the Primarchs slapping each other around? Let's get back to talking about Russ wearing a leash and peeing on hydrants when the Emperor used to let him go out in public.

I was actually just trying to have some fun in the thread; wasn't designed to be serious. But since you've moved on to personal attacks for no reason...reported for breaking rule #1 here. I mean, if you actually WERE Leman Russ, I could understand it. But you're attacking me for no reason while I'm bashing on a fictional character. The Mods can sort you out. No longer worth my time.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Guilliman does not fight Angron and Lorgar at the same time. Lorgar duelled with him and then stopped, THEN Guilliman and Angron duelled. Lorgar was busy bringing the power from the warp through to the materium. Angron and Guilliman fought alone and Angron beat the absolute breaks off him with ease. Argal Tal said that Guilliman had no hope against Angron as he watched.

Did you mean Lhorke? On page 394, quote "Guilliman had no hope against Angron", which I agree with.
However, on the previous page (the same paragraph even!), Lhorke also says "Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them, until Lorgar ceased his attack and started his achingly resonant chant". Therefore, I do think it fair to assume that Guilliman was fighting both, until Lorgar disengages, and then starts buffing Angron indirectly from the Warp, and while not winning, the fact he could stand up to both and not just instantly get destroyed is something I've not seen from another Primarch yet - maybe except Kurze, who stands against both Guilliman and the Lion (but then, Kurze is using the surroundings to level the playing field - Guilliman doesn't have that here).

Also, nitpicking, but Angron doesn't "beat him easily" - Guilliman lands some serious hits in ("huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman's gauntlets") - but that's not to say Angron wasn't winning. Angron would have won, with or without Lorgar, but Angron wasn't destroying Guilliman with ease. This still supports what Lhorke says about Guilliman having no hope - it might not be quick and brutal, but rather longer and more drawn out pummeling.

Vulkan is the only primarch who's also a perpetual, so he'd obviously win, given enough time.