He who does not fill out the survey, may he not complain about things he wants to see fixed in the game.
As a little bit of activism for my own pet want:
I think it would be a cool thing to have an automatically updated source of rules that you could pay a subscription fee to get access to all the rules content GW puts out, rather than having to have a ton of printed books with you when you want to play and FAQs you have to cross-reference.
He who does not fill out the survey, may he not complain about things he wants to see fixed in the game.
As a little bit of activism for my own pet want:
I think it would be a cool thing to have an automatically updated source of rules that you could pay a subscription fee to get access to all the rules content GW puts out, rather than having to have a ton of printed books with you when you want to play and FAQs you have to cross-reference.
Well it didn't tell me anything when I hit the last "OK" button, but I'm not going to redo the entire thing - I'll just assume it went through and got caught in the ad blocker or something.
Well, completed the survey with as much detail as I could possibly include. I find it important to let Games Workshop know the areas I think they've being doing really well in (such as the new models, the engagement and the effort to adapt) as well as the areas they've been pretty bad in. Either way, now that it's complete I can go back to, what many here would call, whinging. I've earned it.
Unlike last time, I really doubt there will be a massive amount of people requesting something like plastic Sisters.
I was inclined to ask for an official BattleScribe type tool that shows all relevant rules for list building, from relics to warlord traits to chapter tactics and data sheets.
And for them to use it as a way to update data sheets rather than just balancing via points all the time.
I suggested they do something that CGL's beeing doing, to great sucess, of offering combo hardcopy digital packages for a discount, it's an easy way to get an extra 10-20 bucks out of someone who'd otherwise only purhse in one format. but also likely to be a pretty popular thing with the player base
I also emphasised the benefit of digitising all rules to ensure that balancing can be best achieved in the game through continual, instantaneous, and universally accessible updating of rules and points values. Would that it were so.
* Better proofreading/quality control
* Better internal/external balance between tomes/codexes
* More themed terrain for AOS around the realms
* Better terrain rules for 40k * Examples/guidelines to approach someone with the idea of playing Open Play to alleviate the imbalance concerns.
The only real feedback I gave them was that - despite excellent quality of their miniatures, I'm less and less inclined to continue purchasing new GW products as the prices are just more than I find reasonable for the products I'm getting. I also mentioned that while I considered getting my nephew into 40K...it's simply something I won't attempt because short of eBaying used miniatures, as an 11 year old there's almost nothing he can afford to "start an army", etc.
It's too expensive to get into the hobby; which is a major stumbling block. As a existing player, the prices aren't particularly bad if I buy a new toy tank every month or two. A prospective new player, though, is looking at an outlay of $300-$500 for miniatures and another $150 for books just to start playing the game at a minimum level, which is pretty overall unreasonable for starting a hobby. Well, it's actually not unreasonable for an adult, but it's very unreasonable for a high schooler or middle schooler, and it's kids who are important here when it comes to getting new players.
Also on tank guns not really being noticeably superior to infantry carried at guns, my personal pet peeve.
Yep, that's more or less my main issue. As an adult I can find eBay sales, discounts, split stuff, and I can buy old models and refurb them etc. My nephew, who is 11, is interested in 40K and I've even put together some old used marines for him. But there isn't a single product he can go into the GW store and buy with his allowance/money he earns doing housework/chores, etc.
A 10-man squad of marines at $60 might as well be $200 for a young kid. I'm not saying I can't help him out and go through the normal routes...but it ruins the whole thing if we can't drive over to the local GW and have him actually pick something out and buy it with his own money (there's a definite pride in doing so).
It's just wildly out of reach for anyone without a consistern source of income, etc. Even if a kid can't build an army...a few miniatures would be ideal (something I genuinely think was bad about losing the ability to buy a blister of miniatures etc.).
I commented on cost being too high for play.
Painting app is fantastic.
Points should be doubled for more wiggle room.
GK are struggling.
And marines don't feel like marines.
And CA should have all point values
Yeah, as others here have mentioned, I’ve gone out of my way to NOT recommend friends and associates to get into GW’s games because there are simply too many other inexpensive (at least on start-up) games and hobbies to get into.
Frankly, the only reason I still buy anything GW is habit, and I still often find myself contemplating how much more I could get for my other hobbies if I didn’t buy into GW stuff. As a result, my GW purchases these days are a mere fraction of my hobby dollars.
Elbows wrote: The only real feedback I gave them was that - despite excellent quality of their miniatures, I'm less and less inclined to continue purchasing new GW products as the prices are just more than I find reasonable for the products I'm getting. I also mentioned that while I considered getting my nephew into 40K...it's simply something I won't attempt because short of eBaying used miniatures, as an 11 year old there's almost nothing he can afford to "start an army", etc.
I told them I'm not touching the new Chaos Terminators until there is an upgrade sprue to equip them appropriately. I don't find the cost terribly worrisome, but it would be nice to see price rises slow a bit.
- The lack of transparency, and the lack of sustainability of the various range and armies. No way to know how much support an army is going to get in the support. Some armies may be neglected for decades (Sisters of Battle), some might be completely abandoned (Kroot mercenaries, Dogs of War for WFB), some entire game system may disappear.
- The new 40k lore, which focus way too much on being a story instead of being a setting. I don't want to play subfactions (chapters, regiment, craftworld, …) and characters that were created and designed by GW, I want them to give me rules and inspiration to create my own. All 40k lore should be about fleshing up more different aspect of the setting, not an advancing story with a few characters that influence the whole setting! And I especially dislike the fleshing out and the return of primarchs (old legends are so more interesting as legends than as actual characters), and the return of technological advancement through primaris marine, which remove the quite unique and very interesting theme of technological decay from 40k.
- Please please please stop keeping the name in English in the middle of French texts, at least when the translation already exist in the real world! I don't mind if genestealers stay genestealers, but commissars should be commissaires!!!
- Profile creep, i.e. the profile of new weapons being way stronger than old weapons. For instance, the new Chaos rotor cannon being so much stronger than a heavy bolter, while the weapon is about the same size, even if balanced by point cost, make the heavy bolter seem like a WEAK weapon…
New functionality for Warhammer-Community:
RSS FEEDS!!!!
One thing to make GW stuff more enjoyable:
Take clear engagement and make those explicit about faction support. Be honest if a faction is likely to get dropped in next edition (say, Kroot mercenaries), have a clear (if approximate) schedule about when each faction is getting new models, …
Yeah, that is pretty long. It was a bit weird to ask if you played a game and if you said no to not get asked why. The actual site is a bit annoying wedging it in a small box too. And asked endlessly about tournaments which I'm just not interested in.
Still, asked for the various things I'd like to see, so hopefully that's collected, they responded very positively last year.
(I asked for loads... digital WD coming back, another MTO run of Diaz seekers, Primaris traditional squads, an end to realms in AOS, living digital rulebooks, an Emperor's Children dex, expanding and bringing back the interesting FW ranges (Renegade Millitia especially), more cultists, the Necromunda gangs to get packs of lasguns for use in 40k, more mixed gender ranges and easing up on the no model/no rules thing for trivial conversions or accessory sprues.)
Personally, I have very little issue with anything since the turn around in management. I probably should have asked for a digital code to be supplied with hard copies...but other than that, I just want my Daemon Primarchs. They already granted my request from last year’s survey (release new Slaanesh Daemons/Keeper of Secrets).
Some of the questions were more obtuse than they needed to be. For example I only buy a WD if there are rules in it, yet had to rate the other content as if I had an interest in it. IDK how any print magazine makes money these days, let alone one as specialized as WD.
Similarly, I don't set aside an hour a week to play a GW video game. If there is a cool one out I'll play it for a while, and might even reinstall it some day.
My one thing I didn't like about Warhammer was "nearly everything about AoS"
I asked for Power Armor/elite units to be more powerful than they are compared to cheap regular troopers.
I told them that I was ready for 40K 9E, and that I hoped they would keep the streamlining from 8E while fixing the things that didn't work out as well, such as the auras and broken weapons (broken including but not limited to random shots replacing templates).
Glad to see so many echoing the sentiment of getting prices at a point that the target audience can participate in.
I've had a lot of success introducing kids to the idea of the game but then their parents balk at the prices.
There's something to be said for when we were kids and we could actually purchase individual blisters with money we had, and it was a lot easier to talk our parents into impulse purchases.
Had to beg for updated Seraphon though. I still wish for some sort of enlightened Space Slann that could go the cross game compatible route of daemons.
That or a Lost & the Damned equivalent for crazy xeno races.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Glad to see so many echoing the sentiment of getting prices at a point that the target audience can participate in.
Not just that, but getting prices to a point where they don't appear to have been decided upon using a random number generator.
The Officio Praefectus Commissar is £12.50
Severina Raine is £20.00
the METAL Commissar with Power Fist is £8.20
The resin Lord Commissar is £9.50
Yarrick is £11.00
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Glad to see so many echoing the sentiment of getting prices at a point that the target audience can participate in.
Not just that, but getting prices to a point where they don't appear to have been decided upon using a random number generator.
The Officio Praefectus Commissar is £12.50
Severina Raine is £20.00
the METAL Commissar with Power Fist is £8.20
The resin Lord Commissar is £9.50
Yarrick is £11.00
Wut???
I brought up prices because there's an obvious creep in cost for models. It's getting expensive. $40 for a single model
I asked for lower prices in general, fixes to the Renegades and Heretics Index, Terrain, and general overall more tight rules writing and editing.
The prices make it nearly impossible for high schoolers and middle schoolers to get into this. I'm a high schooler and have had luck with several years of birthday, christmas and work money put towards the hobby, but those less fortunate are really screwed there, and so was I for a long while.
Sir Heckington wrote: I asked for lower prices in general, fixes to the Renegades and Heretics Index, Terrain, and general overall more tight rules writing and editing.
The prices make it nearly impossible for high schoolers and middle schoolers to get into this. I'm a high schooler and have had luck with several years of birthday, christmas and work money put towards the hobby, but those less fortunate are really screwed there, and so was I for a long while.
I have to wait till my 18th birthday to get any substential money, and that is years away from now. Buying 1 box per 3 months does not make it easy to improve an army or collect a new one.
GW aren't going to lower prices. Better to say you want better 3rd party retailer availability so that you can get more of their stuff for discounted prices.
Sim-Life wrote: GW aren't going to lower prices. Better to say you want better 3rd party retailer availability so that you can get more of their stuff for discounted prices.
There do seem to be more and more kits only available direct from GW. Pretty annoying.
Sim-Life wrote: GW aren't going to lower prices. Better to say you want better 3rd party retailer availability so that you can get more of their stuff for discounted prices.
There do seem to be more and more kits only available direct from GW. Pretty annoying.
I think part of that is simply the economics of GW's current production situation. It's a lot lot easier to keep up if they hold back a large number of lines to direct order only and thus only have to produce and store locally; rather than produce, ship and store in a lot more stores where some might sit on shelves for ages. I do think sometimes GW needs to look at specific armies and see that some are not selling, but at the same tiime most of the army core is direct order only - although often when they do a new tome/codex this does get revised now and then.
Another aspect is that GW's inventory is huge and even their own stores can't actually hold it all in practical levels, so, again, cutting back to a selection on direct only makes sense. So long as they keep a proportion of each army individually and direct order only it works for GW and all the direct only stuff will generate increased revenue for them (if they get their numbers right on the balance between general and direct only) over being shipped to 3rd parties.
Sim-Life wrote: GW aren't going to lower prices. Better to say you want better 3rd party retailer availability so that you can get more of their stuff for discounted prices.
There do seem to be more and more kits only available direct from GW. Pretty annoying.
I think part of that is simply the economics of GW's current production situation. It's a lot lot easier to keep up if they hold back a large number of lines to direct order only and thus only have to produce and store locally; rather than produce, ship and store in a lot more stores where some might sit on shelves for ages. I do think sometimes GW needs to look at specific armies and see that some are not selling, but at the same tiime most of the army core is direct order only - although often when they do a new tome/codex this does get revised now and then.
Another aspect is that GW's inventory is huge and even their own stores can't actually hold it all in practical levels, so, again, cutting back to a selection on direct only makes sense. So long as they keep a proportion of each army individually and direct order only it works for GW and all the direct only stuff will generate increased revenue for them (if they get their numbers right on the balance between general and direct only) over being shipped to 3rd parties.
I do understand all that, it is very true. But it doesn't stop it being quite frustrating, and making me at time reluctant to spend money on GW at all due to the barrier to accessing specific products in their range.
The Phazer wrote: And asked endlessly about tournaments which I'm just not interested in.
That did seem to be the overwhelming theme of this year's questions. This would seem to indicate a keen interest on Games Workshop's behalf to get more heavily involved in serious organized tournaments. I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lords of Nottingham had seen the massive revenue streams being generated by the eSports scene, and started getting "notions" about the potential of Tabletop Sports™.
Yep, that's long. Wasn't too impressed by the endless questions on events, without any real way to explain exactly what I don't like about them except in quite tangential fashion.
Mainly complained about prices and balance. It was annoying they didn't allow you to say why you don't play some of their games - it was just "do you play AoS? No. OK, bye." Seems like that would be valuable info to me. Similar to the WD section. Lost of questions but none that really seemed to get to the heart of the problems that magazine has for me.
Sim-Life wrote: GW aren't going to lower prices. Better to say you want better 3rd party retailer availability so that you can get more of their stuff for discounted prices.
There do seem to be more and more kits only available direct from GW. Pretty annoying.
I think part of that is simply the economics of GW's current production situation. It's a lot lot easier to keep up if they hold back a large number of lines to direct order only and thus only have to produce and store locally; rather than produce, ship and store in a lot more stores where some might sit on shelves for ages. I do think sometimes GW needs to look at specific armies and see that some are not selling, but at the same tiime most of the army core is direct order only - although often when they do a new tome/codex this does get revised now and then.
Another aspect is that GW's inventory is huge and even their own stores can't actually hold it all in practical levels, so, again, cutting back to a selection on direct only makes sense. So long as they keep a proportion of each army individually and direct order only it works for GW and all the direct only stuff will generate increased revenue for them (if they get their numbers right on the balance between general and direct only) over being shipped to 3rd parties.
My biggest problem along these lines is that many factions even have basic troops that are direct only. I've made it clear that there are people who will not even touch a line if you can't pick up their most basic of units off the shelf.
did my part, basically begging for better balancing on points based on unit performance and presence on win rates in tournament play rather than just what somebody feels a unit should be. suggested an app like warmahordes uses and in game tracking to provide data on win rates to help with quarterly points adjustments.
I asked for a redo of the 1ksons codex. Not gonna happen but whatever may as well ask. I also picked the points update every 6 months instead of yearly. I also was not in favor of the random turns in the AOS portion of the survey as that one rule ruins the entire AOS rule set for me.
I put in my two cents. They’re driving me away with their pricing and I have absolutely no love for tournament play and how it embitters the community well.
Also asked for PDF electronic versions - I have no use for their overpriced “enhanced” versions and I can’t stand epubs. I just want simple e-versions I can pull up on my iPad when I’m away from my bookshelf copies. If they’re worried about piracy, it’s a misplaced fear - the book are already out there and can be found in less than five minutes. I’d just rather “official” versions.
Also, in the same vein it is an absolute shame that they didn’t - and still don’t - have an official program for army building 40K and Kill Team lists.
I also asked for more Kill Team/Blackstone Fortress content. I’d especially love a supplement/article for making your own heroes, and more 40K factions converted to enemies to face in the fortress. Blackstone is the one thing from GW that has my attention right now.
Unfortunately, I forgot to pine for Plastic Eldar Aspects (PEA). It’s one of those last things that might get me to buy more 40K in large quantities - but in the end the price would probably dissuade me, as I already have a 2E metal army I haven’t even managed to play yet.
I asked them, if they're going to squat the marine lines and replace with Primaris, why not let them go out in a blaze of glory and be good before they're shut down and replaced?
I wish there was a way to go back and edit your responses or a "I took the survey but I thought of something else I wanted to say" button, I forgot to complain about Space Marine Transport Segregation.
That was a very long survey, nearly packed it in after a while however I didn't.
Things I brought up,
1. Pricing makes me actively seek out second hand deals. It's just a bit too strong most of the time, and tbf a modest drop in pricing would probably see me buy more models.
2. 40k App. Something like battlescribe, but officially supported with updated rules for the codexs you own with quick refernece links and a user friendly interface for competitive play.
3. 40k Combat needs sorting out. To me, it's far to complicated. Too many dice rolls, too much movement, and far less rewarding for getting it right. It's a time vampire, and it needs to be as simple as the shooting phase.
I also talked about faction balance and points costing. It'll be interesting if they take on board some of the feedback, but we'll just have to wait and see.
I went in on the pricing. It's doubtful its going to change anything, but yeah it's honest feedback that here it feels like 9 outta 10 people just buy everything recast. The prices in Australia are absurd and not only something that gets skipped out of practicality but also out of indignation. Nobody wants to support those prices.
Another one here harping on the prices. Also found a lot of my feedback coming back to wanting more strategic rules and better terrain rules, cited Cities of Death terrain rules as a step in the right direction and that I missed firing arcs. Fixes to the largely useless/ignores morale phase.
Greetings warrior brothers and battle sisters; I have performed my sacred duty to the Emperor of Man and invoked his Holy Inquisition.
But because I also occasionally exhibit heretical tendencies myself, I suggested that there never be another reset button so we can get some new armies so that xenos could finally soup with the rest of us- I was too polite to tell them if they hadn't done everything over again times from scratch we would have been there a decade ago.
Suggested that every faction should have at least one flyer and at least one super heavy.
Gave 'em a bit o' gears over prices too.
Praised interactions of scale and asked for Battlefleet Gothic. Suggested more tools for world and campaign builders.
Found a lot of questions hard to answer accurately; I found myself wondering about what they would infer from my answers based on the way the questions were asked and arranged, and wasn't afraid to push the boundaries of truth if I thought they'd take it the wrong way and use it to justify destroying the game.
The truth is that I feel like I'm in the golden age of the hobby- new models and rules for Sisters and Genestealer Cults in the same edition! Box sets to support the core game with interactions of scale, rules for multiple games in a single box AND tons of really cool minis at a substantial discount over what you'd pay in separates.
Given this feeling, I'd rather status quo than push too hard and have them throw it all in the fire and then have to wait more years as they rewrite everything they've already written 8 other times.
I was contemplating Titanicus and wondering if I'd buy any of it if they expanded into a re-release of epic. I don't think I would.
Battlefleet Gothic though? With proper "this unit can only turn this many degrees at a time and has to move at least X inches straight ahead before it can turn again" maneuvering, and actual meaningful firing arcs? That's a game I'd be sorely tempted to buy into.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Another one here harping on the prices. Also found a lot of my feedback coming back to wanting more strategic rules and better terrain rules, cited Cities of Death terrain rules as a step in the right direction and that I missed firing arcs. Fixes to the largely useless/ignores morale phase.
Yep, here too. I would happily spend more if prices were down to something approaching "reasonable", but as it is, I'll wait, pick up things second hand, or find an overseas seller who is still willing to ship to Australia.
The Phazer wrote: And asked endlessly about tournaments which I'm just not interested in.
That did seem to be the overwhelming theme of this year's questions. This would seem to indicate a keen interest on Games Workshop's behalf to get more heavily involved in serious organized tournaments. I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lords of Nottingham had seen the massive revenue streams being generated by the eSports scene, and started getting "notions" about the potential of Tabletop Sports™.
Honestly GW is proably the one company that could possiably do that. 40k especially has a wide number of people who "know about and like the world" who may not play themselves. they are in a unique situation that way. Although I don't think the rules are tight eneugh to really be a good canidate for that.
How did it end for people? Mine just stopped after I hit submit. Tried it both on my phone via hotspot and on my home network and it did the same both times.
But now I'm hearing that others had different results.
The Newman wrote:I wish there was a way to go back and edit your responses or a "I took the survey but I thought of something else I wanted to say" button, I forgot to complain about Space Marine Transport Segregation.
Same. I completely forgot to express my confusion as to why digital publications are comparable in price to paper publications, when the production costs must be significantly lower. Although I did mention price in general.
I know this is a 40k thread, but I asked for dropper bottle paints, a Wood Elf battletome, and more/quicked blood bowl content and releases, as I have already given up hope for 40k
The Newman wrote:I wish there was a way to go back and edit your responses or a "I took the survey but I thought of something else I wanted to say" button, I forgot to complain about Space Marine Transport Segregation.
Same. I completely forgot to express my confusion as to why digital publications are comparable in price to paper publications, when the production costs must be significantly lower. Although I did mention price in general.
I keep thinking of point-cost things that are off.
- Didn't call out Aggressors now that Terminators can put out 8 shots on the move and Aggressors only average 9.5 at 3/4 of the range.
- Didn't call out that Flamers really should have gone down in price to not look terrible next to Storm Bolters. And probably should never have cost more than a Storm Bolter in the first place.
- Didn't mention that Heavy Flamers have no business costing more than a Heavy Bolter.
- Didn't call out the bizarre discrepancies amongst the actual values of army traits / warlord traits / relics. (I'll count it since they all cost exactly the same.)
- Didn't ask why the feth Sternguard can take a Heavy Flamer when they want to stand back but Company Veterans can't take one when they're just about the only mini-marine unit that might actually want one. (Ok, that's not a points issue but it's still baffling.)
Edit: Actually now that I think about it almost nothing that can take a Heavy Flamer in the Marine codex wants one and almost nothing fast that wants to be in melee and could actually leverage one has the option. They'd be viable on Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Inceptors, and Attack Bikes, and meanwhile they're an awful choice on Land Speeders and they can take two of the ruddy things.
This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
Also suggested in the AoS section that I might use more GW terrain if they made some kind of build-modular-stone-buildings range the way 40k has the modular Sector Imperialis stuff instead of all the single army-specific kits that don't look like they belong anywhere near each other.
The Newman wrote:I wish there was a way to go back and edit your responses or a "I took the survey but I thought of something else I wanted to say" button, I forgot to complain about Space Marine Transport Segregation.
Same. I completely forgot to express my confusion as to why digital publications are comparable in price to paper publications, when the production costs must be significantly lower. Although I did mention price in general.
I keep thinking of point-cost things that are off.
- Didn't call out Aggressors now that Terminators can put out 8 shots on the move and Aggressors only average 9.5 at 3/4 of the range.
- Didn't call out that Flamers really should have gone down in price to not look terrible next to Storm Bolters. And probably should never have cost more than a Storm Bolter in the first place.
- Didn't mention that Heavy Flamers have no business costing more than a Heavy Bolter.
- Didn't call out the bizarre discrepancies amongst the actual values of army traits / warlord traits / relics. (I'll count it since they all cost exactly the same.)
- Didn't ask why the feth Sternguard can take a Heavy Flamer when they want to stand back but Company Veterans can't take one when they're just about the only mini-marine unit that might actually want one. (Ok, that's not a points issue but it's still baffling.)
Edit: Actually now that I think about it almost nothing that can take a Heavy Flamer in the Marine codex wants one and almost nothing fast that wants to be in melee and could actually leverage one has the option. They'd be viable on Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Inceptors, and Attack Bikes, and meanwhile they're an awful choice on Land Speeders and they can take two of the ruddy things.
I wonder if points balancing doesn't deserve a yearly survey all to itself.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
TBF, we've gotten several White Dwarf, WarCom, and Chapter Approved articles about conversions for Open Play in the last couple years, and that's probably the best we'll get with the new Three Ways to Play mentality. It would be almost impossible to balance conversions and kit bashes for Match Play.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
TBF, we've gotten several White Dwarf, WarCom, and Chapter Approved articles about conversions for Open Play in the last couple years, and that's probably the best we'll get with the new Three Ways to Play mentality. It would be almost impossible to balance conversions and kit bashes for Match Play.
Anomander probably meant that there should be rules that require conversion work to use, like there was in years gone by, not that wild conversions would get matched rules.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
TBF, we've gotten several White Dwarf, WarCom, and Chapter Approved articles about conversions for Open Play in the last couple years, and that's probably the best we'll get with the new Three Ways to Play mentality. It would be almost impossible to balance conversions and kit bashes for Match Play.
Anomander probably meant that there should be rules that require conversion work to use, like there was in years gone by, not that wild conversions would get matched rules.
Pretty much. I'm talking more about things like the way the Primaris infantry are only allowed the really short list of weapons that are on their own sprues despite the fact that arm swaps from existing Marine kits are trivial, or how Marine characters forget how motorcycles work as soon as they go off for a stint in the Deathwatch, or how newer armies (GSC, AdMech, etc.) have only single-pose/single-loadout HQ choices instead of encouraging you to build your own.
If more armies worked like the Thousand Sons (with a big multi-HQ box that builds several models in a variety of different ways) or like the Custodes (where instead of buying separate HQ blisters there are specific parts in the unit kits to signify "this is a commander") I'd be very happy.
Okay. I got you. I don't know that we're ever going to get back to the point where GW is releasing rules for models they don't sell again (like SM captains on bikes). You'd be better off asking GW to release more options with the kits.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
Also suggested in the AoS section that I might use more GW terrain if they made some kind of build-modular-stone-buildings range the way 40k has the modular Sector Imperialis stuff instead of all the single army-specific kits that don't look like they belong anywhere near each other.
GW does seem to be at least semi reckongizing that, the enw CSM kit is pretty modular. arms, heads, shoulderpads and backpacks are pretty interchangable. I've made a few minor kitbashes with my new CSMs using various other kits. stormbolters from sternguard veterns, MK3 heads, pondering a MK3 backpack on one. etc.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
Also suggested in the AoS section that I might use more GW terrain if they made some kind of build-modular-stone-buildings range the way 40k has the modular Sector Imperialis stuff instead of all the single army-specific kits that don't look like they belong anywhere near each other.
GW does seem to be at least semi reckongizing that, the enw CSM kit is pretty modular. arms, heads, shoulderpads and backpacks are pretty interchangable. I've made a few minor kitbashes with my new CSMs using various other kits. stormbolters from sternguard veterns, MK3 heads, pondering a MK3 backpack on one. etc.
Sometimes I wish they'd gone full-modular with troop/vehicle chassis and weapon classes so we could take whatever we could kit-bash within reason. If Marines are too expensive for their fire output with bolt guns and someone want to give Storm Bolters and Suppressor Cannons to all their Astares squads, or kit an entire Hellblaster squad with Onslaught cannons, or build a Land Raider with three Demolisher Cannons and two pintle mount Multimeltas, or mount a Twin Lascannon and four Suppressor Cannons on a Redemptor, then more power to 'em.
It would be a nightmare to balance properly but at least nobody would have to worry about their troops/vehicles being arbitrarily restricted from taking their faction's on-meta weapon options. Although the whinging when something like the Suppressor Cannon gets introduced and Marine players suddenly feel like they need to replace every heavy weapon in their army would be breathtaking.
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
There are a lot of side-bar clarifications that aren't in the downloadable rules. I guarantee you nobody working from just the quick rules is going to play plasma guns correctly.
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.
And what rules are there for stratagems and CPgen that aren't available for free?
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.
And what rules are there for stratagems and CPgen that aren't available for free?
So is the idea that we need to pay all 6 months in what is essentially a balance Patch, not to mention that we are now over 90 documments....
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Glad to see so many echoing the sentiment of getting prices at a point that the target audience can participate in.
Not just that, but getting prices to a point where they don't appear to have been decided upon using a random number generator.
The Officio Praefectus Commissar is £12.50
Severina Raine is £20.00
the METAL Commissar with Power Fist is £8.20
The resin Lord Commissar is £9.50
Yarrick is £11.00
Wut???
I brought up prices because there's an obvious creep in cost for models. It's getting expensive. $40 for a single model
$60 for a pack of ten of the new CSM. I feel like I'm being slapped in the face with these prices. Indeed, prices were a big issue for me, and I reiterated the point several times; if it weren't for ebay, I probably wouldn't have a third of what I have now. And not just model prices, but prices for the rule books and codices. I wish that I had mentioned it, but why do 40k and the newer AoS books have to be hardcover. I own the softback Disciples of Tzeentch that was only twenty bucks, and it's still in very good condition. I pointed out that if prices were reduced significantly, the amount of would go up considerably in all corners of the fandom. Also, as it is, many people who want to get into it are just priced out; lower prices would lead to a much larger community, and thus, more sales and participation in events.
Other things that I brought up:
- Warhammer Community needs direct fan participation, in the form of moderated comments sections and maybe even a new moderated forum (yes, I know that the last one got really bad, but with clear rules that are firmly enforced, I believe that it could be a success). Also, I'd like either text and/or video interviews of fans who give their own take on Warhammer, their stories, what got them into the hobby, and why they love it so much. I mentioned that the FB comment sections were good, but with no direct fan interaction on the site of any kind, it doesn't really feel like a 'Warhammer community' but rather stuff being fed from us on high (I was quick to point out that most of the content already there is awesome). Indeed, as things are, calling the site a 'community' strikes me as insulting and backhanded. Also, there needs to be better organization of the site, with more sections and menus to search for specific content. For example, I want to read the Vigilus story shorts, but in order to do that, I have to use the search function which makes finding stuff alot longer and alot harder to do.
- Some basic instructions on how to apply the paint placed in the model instructions (and make sure that the paint list is complete, as many times, I feel that vital paints are left out); don't just throw out paint names and expect people to immediately know what to do. Also, there needs to be info on the rules concerning if they can be found in a specific codex/battletome/index and what edition they are for so I know if they are valid or not.
- Updated models for decades-old units. I pointed out the Khorne Berzerker models specifically, as they look ridiculous when placed side by side with the new CSM models. As it is, if I want to have a truly good looking KB army, I have to convert AoS Bloodwarriors which is more money than I should have to spend.
- Being able to put models from other factions into a detachment with killing the buffs. As things are, I can either put Be'lakor in a de-buffed detachment, or have him as an auxiliary detachment that causes me to lose a command point.
- Did I mention prices?
Things I sorely wish I had mentioned:
- Lost and the Damned codex
- World Eaters codex soon, with updated models
- Daemon primarchs
- More Chaos cultists. What happened to the awesome Dark Vengeance models that had those great weapons? All GW did was repackage the same boring models.
Argive wrote:The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook.
Ratio of rules to fluff notwithstanding, unless I am grotesquely mistaken (which I grant is always a possibility) I dont think there is a soul on earth who is going to play even a casual pick up game with me using only 15 pages of "Battle Primer" and nothing else. And even if the rulebooks is 90% fluff, you still need a $50 codex (again, I think a softcover version in the $100ish Start Collecting skus is fair idea).
The Newman wrote:There are a lot of side-bar clarifications that aren't in the downloadable rules. I guarantee you nobody working from just the quick rules is going to play plasma guns correctly.
Slipspace wrote:The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
So I think one of the most important thing we need to let GW know is that 40K needs the possibility of double turn like in AoS. I made sure to impress upon them when taking the survey how good it would be to see that ported over to 40K. I hope everyone agrees and follows suit.
Slipspace wrote: Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.
And what rules are there for stratagems and CPgen that aren't available for free?
So is the idea that we need to pay all 6 months in what is essentially a balance Patch, not to mention that we are now over 90 documments....
Sim-Life wrote: GW aren't going to lower prices. Better to say you want better 3rd party retailer availability so that you can get more of their stuff for discounted prices.
I rubbed how good re-casts are becoming in their face.
Most people in my large 40k group buy them now to keep the costs down.
The prices have got to the point now where people are seeking other options and it will hurt their sales, so hppefully they'll address the pricing model at some stage or they'll keep losing potential revenue.
I'm fairly wealthy these days, but I consider the pricing of especially some of the single model clam packs disgusting frankly and the price of the boxed kits is starting to become ridiculous. I think they are reaching the turning point where they are pissing off the majority of their fan base and making entry to the game too difficult for newcomers/teens.
CAD designed injection moulded plastic should not hold such an insane price premium.
Slipspace wrote: Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.
And what rules are there for stratagems and CPgen that aren't available for free?
So is the idea that we need to pay all 6 months in what is essentially a balance Patch, not to mention that we are now over 90 documments....
.... is relevant to what I've said how?
Frankly the point is that the rules are annoyingly spread, and questionably sold.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mentioned that 9 outta 10 in my area using recasts.
GW can do whatever they want with that knowledge, they are the ones running the business, if they feel the best way to make money is by overpricing the gak out of the few people still buying from them directly, that's their call, and maybe it is the more profitable one. Whatever keeps them in business, the rest of us can just buy recast or secondhand.
The point I was trying to make is that there are only about 6 odd pages of actual rules in the BRB, which are free for the most part. And yes you can have a basic pickup game with just the core rules and data cards provided from you box set of choice (I.E. wake the dead, shadowsepaer etc.). 40k has been dummed down so much its actualy possible.. Obviously if you want to play competatively you will need the codexes, CA18, maybe an index and imperial armour plus have a flick through the 90 odd FAQ's lol...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mentioned that 9 outta 10 in my area using recasts.
GW can do whatever they want with that knowledge, they are the ones running the business, if they feel the best way to make money is by overpricing the gak out of the few people still buying from them directly, that's their call, and maybe it is the more profitable one. Whatever keeps them in business, the rest of us can just buy recast or secondhand.
I don't think such an argument hold much ground though. That is like saying, that if you don't like DC and Marvel comics, just buy other companies stuff. And maybe you can even do that, but no store is going to survive without the big two. In case of FLGS that is MtG and w40k, at least in my country. If right now GW and WotC decided to make it non valid to store to carry their respective range of products, the the store would just close. And then people have no place to play and any form of hobby dies. We had whole cities suddenly have no shops, because they were based around a WFB fandom, and people here do not like AoS as much, if at all.
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: The point I was trying to make is that there are only about 6 odd pages of actual rules in the BRB, which are free for the most part. And yes you can have a basic pickup game with just the core rules and data cards provided from you box set of choice (I.E. wake the dead, shadowsepaer etc.). 40k has been dummed down so much its actualy possible.. Obviously if you want to play competatively you will need the codexes, CA18, maybe an index and imperial armour plus have a flick through the 90 odd FAQ's lol...
you know that is like saying that matched play isn't really a thing, because people somewhere around the world play open or narrative. I don't know if anyone did a poll on it, am sure matched played makes up for most how people play, and you can't play that without all the books, and that is just play, not make your army good, for army good you often need multiple codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mentioned that 9 outta 10 in my area using recasts.
GW can do whatever they want with that knowledge, they are the ones running the business, if they feel the best way to make money is by overpricing the gak out of the few people still buying from them directly, that's their call, and maybe it is the more profitable one. Whatever keeps them in business, the rest of us can just buy recast or secondhand.
I don't think such an argument hold much ground though. That is like saying, that if you don't like DC and Marvel comics, just buy other companies stuff. And maybe you can even do that, but no store is going to survive without the big two. In case of FLGS that is MtG and w40k, at least in my country. If right now GW and WotC decided to make it non valid to store to carry their respective range of products, the the store would just close. And then people have no place to play and any form of hobby dies. We had whole cities suddenly have no shops, because they were based around a WFB fandom, and people here do not like AoS as much, if at all.
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.
As per usual you've completely ignored what was said in and replaced it with what you wanted to read.
Karol wrote: If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.
And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.
The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.
Karol wrote: If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.
And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.
The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, just want to paint out that the last CSM kit was so old that the value of money has probably changed since
you know that is like saying that matched play isn't really a thing, because people somewhere around the world play open or narrative. I don't know if anyone did a poll on it, am sure matched played makes up for most how people play, and you can't play that without all the books, and that is just play, not make your army good, for army good you often need multiple codex.
I have no idea where ive said matched play isint a thing... I said the BRB rules section is ironicaly lacking...I said if you want to have a competative game then you'd need all the books. Matched play does not automaticaly make it competative...
The game before last so 2 weeks ago I played a against a guy that was using 30k models to have a go at 40k. 1300pts. He made his list with battlescribe and had the core rules and had no codex. I had to explain some stuff to him that was changed by FAQ's I.E. deep striking on turn 2 and bolter drills.
He was able to play the game.
Using core rules.
Are you with me?
Karol wrote: If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.
And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.
The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.
I take comfort in the fact that there is no pissible way SoB could be MORE expensive than they are now. 80 dollars for a basic troop and 110 for a squad of jumppack girls, all with no options, no bits, and no chance at discounts.
Karol wrote: you know that is like saying that matched play isn't really a thing, because people somewhere around the world play open or narrative. I don't know if anyone did a poll on it, am sure matched played makes up for most how people play, and you can't play that without all the books, and that is just play, not make your army good, for army good you often need multiple codex.
I have no idea where ive said matched play isint a thing... I said the BRB rules section is ironicaly lacking...I said if you want to have a competative game then you'd need all the books. Matched play does not automaticaly make it competative...
The game before last so 2 weeks ago I played a against a guy that was using 30k models to have a go at 40k. 1300pts. He made his list with battlescribe and had the core rules and had no codex. I had to explain some stuff to him that was changed by FAQ's I.E. deep striking on turn 2 and bolter drills.
He was able to play the game.
Using core rules.
Are you with me?
Exactly.
40k can be played with no more than just the datasheet from a unit (which, in most kits, is part of the instruction booklet) and the free core rules.
You want to throw in detachments, command points, battleforged, stratagems, points, you're more than welcome to, and no-one's saying that's wrong or bad. However, you can't pretend that the ONLY way to play is with those.
I played a game of 40k with 4v4, with most people playing completely new to tabletop games, let alone 40k. We picked out armies from my collection, with roughly matching power level, no stratagems beyond the core 3, no relics, no faction rules, no detachments. It ended up as a really solid and enjoyable game for us. I'm not pretending that it would work for everyone, but fundamentally, you physically CAN play 40k with barebones rules and enjoy it.
Also, karol, you're making a very dangerous (and IMO, wrong) assumption. Matched Play =/= Competitive. Yes, nearly all Competitive games are Matched, but not all Matched are Competitive. As a result, no you absolutely do not NEED to have all the books, and you do not NEED to have multiple ones. You can play Matched Play with one Codex, and at a stretch, Chapter Approved. Beyond that, you are not "required" to have anything beyond that. Sure, you *can* have more, to access new abilities, units or suchlike, but that's just as optional as buying new models, and no-one's forcing you to buy the entire model collection of your faction.
Take what you want, use the rules you want, and that's the barebones of what you NEED to do. If what you want is to be on the cutting edge of competitive play, then that's your choice to have to fine-tune your army with purchasing books and units. If what you want is to roll dice and have a laugh, then that's your choice to potentially forfeit wins.
Karol wrote: If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.
And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.
The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.
I take comfort in the fact that there is no pissible way SoB could be MORE expensive than they are now. 80 dollars for a basic troop and 110 for a squad of jumppack girls, all with no options, no bits, and no chance at discounts.
dkoz wrote: So I think one of the most important thing we need to let GW know is that 40K needs the possibility of double turn like in AoS. I made sure to impress upon them when taking the survey how good it would be to see that ported over to 40K. I hope everyone agrees and follows suit.
It would certainly make the games finish quicker. Great suggestion.
I wrote about how they need to have a cohesive rules team of game designers who actually play the game. It really seems like they just throw the codecies to random fiction writers who then write their codex in a vacuum without looking at other rules, playing games, or working with the other writers to have an overall understanding of the interactions and rules.
More balanced rules would sell more models. They need a rules team who works on all the books together
dkoz wrote: So I think one of the most important thing we need to let GW know is that 40K needs the possibility of double turn like in AoS. I made sure to impress upon them when taking the survey how good it would be to see that ported over to 40K. I hope everyone agrees and follows suit.
It would certainly make the games finish quicker. Great suggestion.
what 40k has needed for a long time is to ditch the ancient turn structure where one whole army goes before the other. Even something like kill team where you alternate back and forth each phase and have reactions mid phase is so much better, so I only they know how to do it.
I-go-you-go has always been a bug-bear of the system.
Alternating unit activations does mean one player might be out of moves a long way before the other, but that actually favors small elite armies and they could generally stand to gain the advantage.
is. But it is quite big to be fair.
