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2019/04/18 03:48:20
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
The Newman wrote:I wish there was a way to go back and edit your responses or a "I took the survey but I thought of something else I wanted to say" button, I forgot to complain about Space Marine Transport Segregation.
Same. I completely forgot to express my confusion as to why digital publications are comparable in price to paper publications, when the production costs must be significantly lower. Although I did mention price in general.
2019/04/18 06:05:00
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/04/18 06:27:42
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/04/18 13:11:21
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
I know this is a 40k thread, but I asked for dropper bottle paints, a Wood Elf battletome, and more/quicked blood bowl content and releases, as I have already given up hope for 40k
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/18 13:11:58
2019/04/18 13:37:49
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
The Newman wrote:I wish there was a way to go back and edit your responses or a "I took the survey but I thought of something else I wanted to say" button, I forgot to complain about Space Marine Transport Segregation.
Same. I completely forgot to express my confusion as to why digital publications are comparable in price to paper publications, when the production costs must be significantly lower. Although I did mention price in general.
I keep thinking of point-cost things that are off.
- Didn't call out Aggressors now that Terminators can put out 8 shots on the move and Aggressors only average 9.5 at 3/4 of the range.
- Didn't call out that Flamers really should have gone down in price to not look terrible next to Storm Bolters. And probably should never have cost more than a Storm Bolter in the first place.
- Didn't mention that Heavy Flamers have no business costing more than a Heavy Bolter.
- Didn't call out the bizarre discrepancies amongst the actual values of army traits / warlord traits / relics. (I'll count it since they all cost exactly the same.)
- Didn't ask why the feth Sternguard can take a Heavy Flamer when they want to stand back but Company Veterans can't take one when they're just about the only mini-marine unit that might actually want one. (Ok, that's not a points issue but it's still baffling.)
Edit: Actually now that I think about it almost nothing that can take a Heavy Flamer in the Marine codex wants one and almost nothing fast that wants to be in melee and could actually leverage one has the option. They'd be viable on Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Inceptors, and Attack Bikes, and meanwhile they're an awful choice on Land Speeders and they can take two of the ruddy things.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/18 15:06:39
This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/18 17:09:45
2019/04/18 21:00:54
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/04/18 21:04:44
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
Also suggested in the AoS section that I might use more GW terrain if they made some kind of build-modular-stone-buildings range the way 40k has the modular Sector Imperialis stuff instead of all the single army-specific kits that don't look like they belong anywhere near each other.
The Newman wrote:I wish there was a way to go back and edit your responses or a "I took the survey but I thought of something else I wanted to say" button, I forgot to complain about Space Marine Transport Segregation.
Same. I completely forgot to express my confusion as to why digital publications are comparable in price to paper publications, when the production costs must be significantly lower. Although I did mention price in general.
I keep thinking of point-cost things that are off.
- Didn't call out Aggressors now that Terminators can put out 8 shots on the move and Aggressors only average 9.5 at 3/4 of the range.
- Didn't call out that Flamers really should have gone down in price to not look terrible next to Storm Bolters. And probably should never have cost more than a Storm Bolter in the first place.
- Didn't mention that Heavy Flamers have no business costing more than a Heavy Bolter.
- Didn't call out the bizarre discrepancies amongst the actual values of army traits / warlord traits / relics. (I'll count it since they all cost exactly the same.)
- Didn't ask why the feth Sternguard can take a Heavy Flamer when they want to stand back but Company Veterans can't take one when they're just about the only mini-marine unit that might actually want one. (Ok, that's not a points issue but it's still baffling.)
Edit: Actually now that I think about it almost nothing that can take a Heavy Flamer in the Marine codex wants one and almost nothing fast that wants to be in melee and could actually leverage one has the option. They'd be viable on Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Inceptors, and Attack Bikes, and meanwhile they're an awful choice on Land Speeders and they can take two of the ruddy things.
I wonder if points balancing doesn't deserve a yearly survey all to itself.
2019/04/19 04:01:21
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
TBF, we've gotten several White Dwarf, WarCom, and Chapter Approved articles about conversions for Open Play in the last couple years, and that's probably the best we'll get with the new Three Ways to Play mentality. It would be almost impossible to balance conversions and kit bashes for Match Play.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
2019/04/19 13:45:23
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
TBF, we've gotten several White Dwarf, WarCom, and Chapter Approved articles about conversions for Open Play in the last couple years, and that's probably the best we'll get with the new Three Ways to Play mentality. It would be almost impossible to balance conversions and kit bashes for Match Play.
Anomander probably meant that there should be rules that require conversion work to use, like there was in years gone by, not that wild conversions would get matched rules.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
TBF, we've gotten several White Dwarf, WarCom, and Chapter Approved articles about conversions for Open Play in the last couple years, and that's probably the best we'll get with the new Three Ways to Play mentality. It would be almost impossible to balance conversions and kit bashes for Match Play.
Anomander probably meant that there should be rules that require conversion work to use, like there was in years gone by, not that wild conversions would get matched rules.
Pretty much. I'm talking more about things like the way the Primaris infantry are only allowed the really short list of weapons that are on their own sprues despite the fact that arm swaps from existing Marine kits are trivial, or how Marine characters forget how motorcycles work as soon as they go off for a stint in the Deathwatch, or how newer armies (GSC, AdMech, etc.) have only single-pose/single-loadout HQ choices instead of encouraging you to build your own.
If more armies worked like the Thousand Sons (with a big multi-HQ box that builds several models in a variety of different ways) or like the Custodes (where instead of buying separate HQ blisters there are specific parts in the unit kits to signify "this is a commander") I'd be very happy.
Okay. I got you. I don't know that we're ever going to get back to the point where GW is releasing rules for models they don't sell again (like SM captains on bikes). You'd be better off asking GW to release more options with the kits.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
2019/04/20 04:51:28
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
Also suggested in the AoS section that I might use more GW terrain if they made some kind of build-modular-stone-buildings range the way 40k has the modular Sector Imperialis stuff instead of all the single army-specific kits that don't look like they belong anywhere near each other.
GW does seem to be at least semi reckongizing that, the enw CSM kit is pretty modular. arms, heads, shoulderpads and backpacks are pretty interchangable. I've made a few minor kitbashes with my new CSMs using various other kits. stormbolters from sternguard veterns, MK3 heads, pondering a MK3 backpack on one. etc.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/04/20 11:41:04
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to explain that the ability to mix and match parts/convert things they don't specifically sell is a big selling point of 40k and an important part of the hobby, and the push to single-pose models and no-rules-for-conversions is sort of strangling that.
Also suggested in the AoS section that I might use more GW terrain if they made some kind of build-modular-stone-buildings range the way 40k has the modular Sector Imperialis stuff instead of all the single army-specific kits that don't look like they belong anywhere near each other.
GW does seem to be at least semi reckongizing that, the enw CSM kit is pretty modular. arms, heads, shoulderpads and backpacks are pretty interchangable. I've made a few minor kitbashes with my new CSMs using various other kits. stormbolters from sternguard veterns, MK3 heads, pondering a MK3 backpack on one. etc.
Sometimes I wish they'd gone full-modular with troop/vehicle chassis and weapon classes so we could take whatever we could kit-bash within reason. If Marines are too expensive for their fire output with bolt guns and someone want to give Storm Bolters and Suppressor Cannons to all their Astares squads, or kit an entire Hellblaster squad with Onslaught cannons, or build a Land Raider with three Demolisher Cannons and two pintle mount Multimeltas, or mount a Twin Lascannon and four Suppressor Cannons on a Redemptor, then more power to 'em.
It would be a nightmare to balance properly but at least nobody would have to worry about their troops/vehicles being arbitrarily restricted from taking their faction's on-meta weapon options. Although the whinging when something like the Suppressor Cannon gets introduced and Marine players suddenly feel like they need to replace every heavy weapon in their army would be breathtaking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/20 11:43:40
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/20 15:18:56
2019/04/20 17:21:41
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
There are a lot of side-bar clarifications that aren't in the downloadable rules. I guarantee you nobody working from just the quick rules is going to play plasma guns correctly.
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
2019/04/21 05:20:44
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.
And what rules are there for stratagems and CPgen that aren't available for free?
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2019/04/21 07:12:16
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
Sunsanvil wrote: This was the big thing that I brought up more than once in the survey. Its unreasonable to expect a newcomer to drop $100 on rules+1 codex. That should be the total cost of rules/codex (make them softcover...I dont care), AND about 500 points worth of models.THEN you'd see new players taking it up in droves.
in fairness Dark Imperium is pretty close to that. whats the points costs of those armies?
No really. DI is just shy of $200, only available with two specific factions which may or may not be what you want to collect, and even if they just happen to be and you split it with a friend...someone walks away without a rulebook.
Come to think of it, if all they did was put a softcover rulebook+Codex in the "start collecting" skus (and left the price as is!), most of the "entry cost" objections would disappear.
The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook. CA misions are being played prety much everywhere so you'd want that.
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.
And what rules are there for stratagems and CPgen that aren't available for free?
So is the idea that we need to pay all 6 months in what is essentially a balance Patch, not to mention that we are now over 90 documments....
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/04/21 08:29:23
Subject: Re:Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Glad to see so many echoing the sentiment of getting prices at a point that the target audience can participate in.
Not just that, but getting prices to a point where they don't appear to have been decided upon using a random number generator.
The Officio Praefectus Commissar is £12.50
Severina Raine is £20.00
the METAL Commissar with Power Fist is £8.20
The resin Lord Commissar is £9.50
Yarrick is £11.00
Wut???
I brought up prices because there's an obvious creep in cost for models. It's getting expensive. $40 for a single model
$60 for a pack of ten of the new CSM. I feel like I'm being slapped in the face with these prices. Indeed, prices were a big issue for me, and I reiterated the point several times; if it weren't for ebay, I probably wouldn't have a third of what I have now. And not just model prices, but prices for the rule books and codices. I wish that I had mentioned it, but why do 40k and the newer AoS books have to be hardcover. I own the softback Disciples of Tzeentch that was only twenty bucks, and it's still in very good condition. I pointed out that if prices were reduced significantly, the amount of would go up considerably in all corners of the fandom. Also, as it is, many people who want to get into it are just priced out; lower prices would lead to a much larger community, and thus, more sales and participation in events.
Other things that I brought up:
- Warhammer Community needs direct fan participation, in the form of moderated comments sections and maybe even a new moderated forum (yes, I know that the last one got really bad, but with clear rules that are firmly enforced, I believe that it could be a success). Also, I'd like either text and/or video interviews of fans who give their own take on Warhammer, their stories, what got them into the hobby, and why they love it so much. I mentioned that the FB comment sections were good, but with no direct fan interaction on the site of any kind, it doesn't really feel like a 'Warhammer community' but rather stuff being fed from us on high (I was quick to point out that most of the content already there is awesome). Indeed, as things are, calling the site a 'community' strikes me as insulting and backhanded. Also, there needs to be better organization of the site, with more sections and menus to search for specific content. For example, I want to read the Vigilus story shorts, but in order to do that, I have to use the search function which makes finding stuff alot longer and alot harder to do.
- Some basic instructions on how to apply the paint placed in the model instructions (and make sure that the paint list is complete, as many times, I feel that vital paints are left out); don't just throw out paint names and expect people to immediately know what to do. Also, there needs to be info on the rules concerning if they can be found in a specific codex/battletome/index and what edition they are for so I know if they are valid or not.
- Updated models for decades-old units. I pointed out the Khorne Berzerker models specifically, as they look ridiculous when placed side by side with the new CSM models. As it is, if I want to have a truly good looking KB army, I have to convert AoS Bloodwarriors which is more money than I should have to spend.
- Being able to put models from other factions into a detachment with killing the buffs. As things are, I can either put Be'lakor in a de-buffed detachment, or have him as an auxiliary detachment that causes me to lose a command point.
- Did I mention prices?
Things I sorely wish I had mentioned:
- Lost and the Damned codex
- World Eaters codex soon, with updated models
- Daemon primarchs
- More Chaos cultists. What happened to the awesome Dark Vengeance models that had those great weapons? All GW did was repackage the same boring models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/21 08:31:16
2019/04/21 21:17:38
Subject: Warhammer Community 2019 survey is up on WHC
Argive wrote:The core rules are available free on the interwebs. There really isint more than about 6 pages of rules in the rulebook.
Ratio of rules to fluff notwithstanding, unless I am grotesquely mistaken (which I grant is always a possibility) I dont think there is a soul on earth who is going to play even a casual pick up game with me using only 15 pages of "Battle Primer" and nothing else. And even if the rulebooks is 90% fluff, you still need a $50 codex (again, I think a softcover version in the $100ish Start Collecting skus is fair idea).
The Newman wrote:There are a lot of side-bar clarifications that aren't in the downloadable rules. I guarantee you nobody working from just the quick rules is going to play plasma guns correctly.
Slipspace wrote:The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
is. But it is quite big to be fair.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
Eldar- 4436 pts
