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So I think one of the most important thing we need to let GW know is that 40K needs the possibility of double turn like in AoS. I made sure to impress upon them when taking the survey how good it would be to see that ported over to 40K. I hope everyone agrees and follows suit.

Oh good god no.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.

Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.

And what rules are there for stratagems and CP gen that aren't available for free?

So is the idea that we need to pay all 6 months in what is essentially a balance Patch, not to mention that we are now over 90 documments....

.... is relevant to what I've said how?

 Sim-Life wrote:
GW aren't going to lower prices. Better to say you want better 3rd party retailer availability so that you can get more of their stuff for discounted prices.

I rubbed how good re-casts are becoming in their face.

Most people in my large 40k group buy them now to keep the costs down.

The prices have got to the point now where people are seeking other options and it will hurt their sales, so hppefully they'll address the pricing model at some stage or they'll keep losing potential revenue.

I'm fairly wealthy these days, but I consider the pricing of especially some of the single model clam packs disgusting frankly and the price of the boxed kits is starting to become ridiculous. I think they are reaching the turning point where they are pissing off the majority of their fan base and making entry to the game too difficult for newcomers/teens.

CAD designed injection moulded plastic should not hold such an insane price premium.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Also the detachment rules, which aren't available for free, as well as the core stratagems and CP generation rules, which aren't available for free. The idea that you can download the rules for free from GW is a nice marketing gimmick butt the reality is you won't get very far with just the downloadable PDF.

Battalion patrol and brigade rules are all available for free directly from GW so you can definitely still play off that. But I think the idea that you need even the extra detachment rules given to you for free is ridiculous - you can easily find them anywhere and you do not need to bring them to a match to play it. I think we're just being the contrarion in acting like this is any sort of a speedbump to competitive play.

And what rules are there for stratagems and CP gen that aren't available for free?

So is the idea that we need to pay all 6 months in what is essentially a balance Patch, not to mention that we are now over 90 documments....

.... is relevant to what I've said how?

Frankly the point is that the rules are annoyingly spread, and questionably sold.

That's not the point I responded to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mentioned that 9 outta 10 in my area using recasts.

GW can do whatever they want with that knowledge, they are the ones running the business, if they feel the best way to make money is by overpricing the gak out of the few people still buying from them directly, that's their call, and maybe it is the more profitable one. Whatever keeps them in business, the rest of us can just buy recast or secondhand.

The point I was trying to make is that there are only about 6 odd pages of actual rules in the BRB, which are free for the most part. And yes you can have a basic pickup game with just the core rules and data cards provided from you box set of choice (I.E. wake the dead, shadowsepaer etc.). 40k has been dummed down so much its actualy possible.. Obviously if you want to play competatively you will need the codexes, CA18, maybe an index and imperial armour plus have a flick through the 90 odd FAQ's lol...

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's not the point I responded to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mentioned that 9 outta 10 in my area using recasts.

GW can do whatever they want with that knowledge, they are the ones running the business, if they feel the best way to make money is by overpricing the gak out of the few people still buying from them directly, that's their call, and maybe it is the more profitable one. Whatever keeps them in business, the rest of us can just buy recast or secondhand.

I don't think such an argument hold much ground though. That is like saying, that if you don't like DC and Marvel comics, just buy other companies stuff. And maybe you can even do that, but no store is going to survive without the big two. In case of FLGS that is MtG and w40k, at least in my country. If right now GW and WotC decided to make it non valid to store to carry their respective range of products, the the store would just close. And then people have no place to play and any form of hobby dies. We had whole cities suddenly have no shops, because they were based around a WFB fandom, and people here do not like AoS as much, if at all.
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that there are only about 6 odd pages of actual rules in the BRB, which are free for the most part. And yes you can have a basic pickup game with just the core rules and data cards provided from you box set of choice (I.E. wake the dead, shadowsepaer etc.). 40k has been dummed down so much its actualy possible.. Obviously if you want to play competatively you will need the codexes, CA18, maybe an index and imperial armour plus have a flick through the 90 odd FAQ's lol...

you know that is like saying that matched play isn't really a thing, because people somewhere around the world play open or narrative. I don't know if anyone did a poll on it, am sure matched played makes up for most how people play, and you can't play that without all the books, and that is just play, not make your army good, for army good you often need multiple codex.

Karol wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's not the point I responded to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mentioned that 9 outta 10 in my area using recasts.

GW can do whatever they want with that knowledge, they are the ones running the business, if they feel the best way to make money is by overpricing the gak out of the few people still buying from them directly, that's their call, and maybe it is the more profitable one. Whatever keeps them in business, the rest of us can just buy recast or secondhand.

I don't think such an argument hold much ground though. That is like saying, that if you don't like DC and Marvel comics, just buy other companies stuff. And maybe you can even do that, but no store is going to survive without the big two. In case of FLGS that is MtG and w40k, at least in my country. If right now GW and WotC decided to make it non valid to store to carry their respective range of products, the the store would just close. And then people have no place to play and any form of hobby dies. We had whole cities suddenly have no shops, because they were based around a WFB fandom, and people here do not like AoS as much, if at all.
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.

As per usual you've completely ignored what was said in and replaced it with what you wanted to read.

Karol wrote:
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.

And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.

The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Karol wrote:
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.

And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.

The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, just want to paint out that the last CSM kit was so old that the value of money has probably changed since

Karol wrote:


you know that is like saying that matched play isn't really a thing, because people somewhere around the world play open or narrative. I don't know if anyone did a poll on it, am sure matched played makes up for most how people play, and you can't play that without all the books, and that is just play, not make your army good, for army good you often need multiple codex.

I have no idea where ive said matched play isint a thing... I said the BRB rules section is ironicaly lacking...I said if you want to have a competative game then you'd need all the books. Matched play does not automaticaly make it competative...

The game before last so 2 weeks ago I played a against a guy that was using 30k models to have a go at 40k. 1300pts. He made his list with battlescribe and had the core rules and had no codex. I had to explain some stuff to him that was changed by FAQ's I.E. deep striking on turn 2 and bolter drills.

He was able to play the game.
Using core rules.
Are you with me?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Karol wrote:
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.

And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.

The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.

I take comfort in the fact that there is no pissible way SoB could be MORE expensive than they are now. 80 dollars for a basic troop and 110 for a squad of jumppack girls, all with no options, no bits, and no chance at discounts.

 Argive wrote:

Karol wrote:
you know that is like saying that matched play isn't really a thing, because people somewhere around the world play open or narrative. I don't know if anyone did a poll on it, am sure matched played makes up for most how people play, and you can't play that without all the books, and that is just play, not make your army good, for army good you often need multiple codex.

I have no idea where ive said matched play isint a thing... I said the BRB rules section is ironicaly lacking...I said if you want to have a competative game then you'd need all the books. Matched play does not automaticaly make it competative...

The game before last so 2 weeks ago I played a against a guy that was using 30k models to have a go at 40k. 1300pts. He made his list with battlescribe and had the core rules and had no codex. I had to explain some stuff to him that was changed by FAQ's I.E. deep striking on turn 2 and bolter drills.

He was able to play the game.
Using core rules.
Are you with me?

Exactly.

40k can be played with no more than just the datasheet from a unit (which, in most kits, is part of the instruction booklet) and the free core rules.

You want to throw in detachments, command points, battleforged, stratagems, points, you're more than welcome to, and no-one's saying that's wrong or bad. However, you can't pretend that the ONLY way to play is with those.
I played a game of 40k with 4v4, with most people playing completely new to tabletop games, let alone 40k. We picked out armies from my collection, with roughly matching power level, no stratagems beyond the core 3, no relics, no faction rules, no detachments. It ended up as a really solid and enjoyable game for us. I'm not pretending that it would work for everyone, but fundamentally, you physically CAN play 40k with barebones rules and enjoy it.

Also, karol, you're making a very dangerous (and IMO, wrong) assumption. Matched Play =/= Competitive. Yes, nearly all Competitive games are Matched, but not all Matched are Competitive. As a result, no you absolutely do not NEED to have all the books, and you do not NEED to have multiple ones. You can play Matched Play with one Codex, and at a stretch, Chapter Approved. Beyond that, you are not "required" to have anything beyond that. Sure, you *can* have more, to access new abilities, units or suchlike, but that's just as optional as buying new models, and no-one's forcing you to buy the entire model collection of your faction.
Take what you want, use the rules you want, and that's the barebones of what you NEED to do. If what you want is to be on the cutting edge of competitive play, then that's your choice to have to fine-tune your army with purchasing books and units. If what you want is to roll dice and have a laugh, then that's your choice to potentially forfeit wins.

ERJAK wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Karol wrote:
If people start playing with majority second hand and recast stuff, shops will close, and not every part of the world is like UK with a GW store on "every" corner.

And it will be entirely Games Workshop's fault.

The unfortunate thing is that as painful as Games Workshop's current prices are, most people still seem to be paying them. We're in that perfect little margin where the prices are high enough to aggravate customers, but not high enough to make them turn away, which for Games Workshop is probably right where they want to be, but for us consumers, sucks big time. A quick look at the store tells me that the new Chaos Space Marines are 10 euros more expensive than their old Tactical Squad counterparts. Granted, the Chaos Space Marines are newer and nicer, but that Tactical Squad was new once too, and the price didn't go down. It seems to me that the trajectory of prices is consistently travelling in one direction only. I don't know much about the rate of inflation, but compared to the price of everything else I spend money on, it doesn't feel like inflation is enough to explain that price hike.

I take comfort in the fact that there is no pissible way SoB could be MORE expensive than they are now. 80 dollars for a basic troop and 110 for a squad of jumppack girls, all with no options, no bits, and no chance at discounts.

Don't jinx it!

I'm just getting a blank white box on the main page. No survey, so I'm not sure if it's currently borked.

Hmm. Same here. Perhaps they were only running it for a week?

Well, it did have a banner yesterday saying one day left, so...

dkoz wrote:
So I think one of the most important thing we need to let GW know is that 40K needs the possibility of double turn like in AoS. I made sure to impress upon them when taking the survey how good it would be to see that ported over to 40K. I hope everyone agrees and follows suit.

It would certainly make the games finish quicker. Great suggestion.

I wrote about how they need to have a cohesive rules team of game designers who actually play the game. It really seems like they just throw the codecies to random fiction writers who then write their codex in a vacuum without looking at other rules, playing games, or working with the other writers to have an overall understanding of the interactions and rules.
More balanced rules would sell more models. They need a rules team who works on all the books together


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 r_squared wrote:

dkoz wrote:
So I think one of the most important thing we need to let GW know is that 40K needs the possibility of double turn like in AoS. I made sure to impress upon them when taking the survey how good it would be to see that ported over to 40K. I hope everyone agrees and follows suit.

It would certainly make the games finish quicker. Great suggestion.

what 40k has needed for a long time is to ditch the ancient turn structure where one whole army goes before the other. Even something like kill team where you alternate back and forth each phase and have reactions mid phase is so much better, so I only they know how to do it.

I-go-you-go has always been a bug-bear of the system.

Alternating unit activations does mean one player might be out of moves a long way before the other, but that actually favors small elite armies and they could generally stand to gain the advantage.

Long survey.

I pushed for simpler, less snowflakey rules and made a lot of noise about BattleFleet Gothic