As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
pm713 wrote: The Imperium wouldn't exist. Chaos also wouldn't be a thing without Slaanesh.
How so? Didn't Chaos exist since the beginning of the 40k universe?
No. The Warp has always existed. Chaos began with the War in Heaven that the Necrons started. The Eldar Empire had no threats to it and that's the whole reason the Fall happened. Without the Fall and Slaanesh Chaos can't become a significant threat because the Eldar Empire was strong enough to take out any Chaos serving races and the Eldar were in control of themselves enough to not cause demon incursions.
To clarify, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle would have still existed, but without the Imperium to "fuel" them Chaos would not have become as prominent as it is.
Galef wrote: To clarify, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle would have still existed, but without the Imperium to "fuel" them Chaos would not have become as prominent as it is.
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I dunno about that as chaos was pretty strong prior to the IoM. it seems like an aweful lot of the religions the Emperor found off earth where in fact chaos cults. but yeah it wasn't until the heresy that you had choas cultists flying from world to world in starships openly conquering for the dark gods.
Galef wrote: To clarify, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle would have still existed, but without the Imperium to "fuel" them Chaos would not have become as prominent as it is.
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I dunno about that as chaos was pretty strong prior to the IoM. it seems like an aweful lot of the religions the Emperor found off earth where in fact chaos cults. but yeah it wasn't until the heresy that you had choas cultists flying from world to world in starships openly conquering for the dark gods.
They generally come about in the period where the Eldar Empire was gone but the Great Crusade hadn't started. The Empire left a power vacuum that Orks and Chaos filled for the most part.
Short answer is the IOM wouldn't exist. The emperor knew between the eldar empire falling apart and the warp storms around the galaxy being at a low due to the events of the fall this was his one shot to reform a human empire that was united and spanned the galaxy.
I like to think this explains some of his more bone headed decisions, he was on a strict time table and was willing to cut corners to stay on schedule
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We would have a much different universe, the imperium would still rise but not be the big bad boy on the block, more akin to tau if anything, the eldar would likely take the brunt of all the major invasions and would probably resemble the current imperium, beset on all sides and slowly crumbling.
If the slaanesh warp storms subside somhow (if the eldar suddenly decide to keep it in their pants), I think the Emperor would still build the Imperium.
At which point he'd have to steer very clear of the Eldar domain, but that was pretty geographically concentrated around the future eye of terror region.
argonak wrote: If the slaanesh warp storms subside somhow (if the eldar suddenly decide to keep it in their pants), I think the Emperor would still build the Imperium.
At which point he'd have to steer very clear of the Eldar domain, but that was pretty geographically concentrated around the future eye of terror region.
I don't think the Eldar would care to stop him.
I don't think the IoM would be established at all, since the human confederation that existed during the DAoT, even though ravaged by the rebellion from the Men of Iron, would still exist since they were only fully finished off by the warp storms created by Slaanesh's birth. This means the Emperor wouldn't have the opportunity presented by the crumbled remnants of humanity that would have been left for him to reforge with himself at its head. It would definitely forestall any possible webway project, since that means the Eldar Empire would have the numbers and motivation to actually defend it if humanity tried taking it from them.
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top, though with all the legions of astartes working together it would be a very close battle..
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.
Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.
Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.
The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.
Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.
The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.
I guess you're right about that, the Imperium was only confined to earth before the great crusade started, so the Eldar would most likely see them as a threat and obliterate them right off the bat.
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.
Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.
The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.
No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.
Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.
The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.
No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.
That's plain wrong. There's a webway portal on the moon. I'm really sick of that mistake. The HEART of the Eldar Empire got turned into the Eye of Terror, the whole thing was galaxy spanning. Saying the Eye of Terror is the whole Eldar Empire is like saying the Sol System is the entire Imperium.
The Eldar Empire explicitly had no threats at all. The DAOT was nothing to the Imperial Eldar. Letting humans near Eldar Empire worlds is like me letting a hedgehog live in my garden. I could kill it and its whole family but I have no reason to at all, it's cute.
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.
Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.
The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.
No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.
That's plain wrong. There's a webway portal on the moon. I'm really sick of that mistake. The HEART of the Eldar Empire got turned into the Eye of Terror, the whole thing was galaxy spanning. Saying the Eye of Terror is the whole Eldar Empire is like saying the Sol System is the entire Imperium.
The Eldar Empire explicitly had no threats at all. The DAOT was nothing to the Imperial Eldar. Letting humans near Eldar Empire worlds is like me letting a hedgehog live in my garden. I could kill it and its whole family but I have no reason to at all, it's cute.
Agreed. Any quick look at any of the maps in the various Eldar Codices will show Eldar sites and worlds to span the galaxy. And even so, the galaxy is so vast, that polities can exist in the same volume of space, just like how there are pocket empires throughout nominally Imperial space.
Once again there is also this flawed idea that being dominant and secure necessarily means exterminating every single thing in your vicinity. By that flawed logic then any human is not secure in their house because they have not rid their backyard of every blade of grass or insect and turned their yard into a lifeless moonscape.
The big E would have still risen and taken Earth and most likely founded the Primarchs and the Legions to unify humanity whilst working on not poking the Eldar too much until after a stable IoM was in place
I suspect if the Eldar sensed any danger they would manipulate fate for a Heresy level event to occur as why waste Eldar lives when you could get to monkeys to kill each other, which because they aren't as clever as they like to think fuel Chaos across the galaxy, leading to a fractured but constant threat across the galaxy, not really a threat to them but bad news for everyone else
Jazzylee wrote: As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?
Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.
Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.
The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.
No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.
That's plain wrong. There's a webway portal on the moon. I'm really sick of that mistake. The HEART of the Eldar Empire got turned into the Eye of Terror, the whole thing was galaxy spanning. Saying the Eye of Terror is the whole Eldar Empire is like saying the Sol System is the entire Imperium.
The Eldar Empire explicitly had no threats at all. The DAOT was nothing to the Imperial Eldar. Letting humans near Eldar Empire worlds is like me letting a hedgehog live in my garden. I could kill it and its whole family but I have no reason to at all, it's cute.
Your the wrong one PM, he has as much fluff backing his statement as you do yours, IE almost none, DAOT humans are explicitly stated to have had no rivals, eldar empire are explicitly stated to have had no rivals, also with a webway portal on the moon, it's quite likely they were allies anyway, no empire, no matter how powerful it believes itself to be, would allow a possible enemy to have access to the centre of its empire OR be totally surrounded by a possible enemy.
pm713 wrote: How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.
Why would they be allies?
Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...
You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.
As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.
Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.
pm713 wrote: How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.
Why would they be allies?
Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...
You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.
As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.
The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?
There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.
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Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.
You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.
Except those rabbits out breed you and have weapons more than capable of ending your empire no matter how powerful you think you are, both factions could destroy solar systems for Christ sake (by destroying it's star), you don't throw that kind of warfare around as it makes any other kind pointless, psychic, ground and ship warfare becomes worthless in the face of that.
And no the eldar empire was not all over the galaxy PM, it has a very very few world's outside it's main empire, that's it, maiden world's, exodite worlds and the craftworlds (just before the fall), where as humanity is literally found everywhere, with only the orks being on more planets, your rabbit analogy is apt here.
As for walking up to a nuclear bunker and not knowing how to open the door, they had the tech, were allies with the eldar (beast series IIRC) and knew the webway existed, the only thing they needed was a key, psykers, which they had, kind of why they fell too.
A lot of it depends how the Empire 'doesn't fall' - because the Dark Age of Technology human empire is still potentially destined to get buggered regardless of whether the empire goes crash or not - it fell for two reasons, firstly the psyker emergence and warp storms led to the fall of the eldar, and secondly the Iron Men deciding to lightly exterminate their creators.
An intact eldar empire versus an intact dark age humanity - it's probably in the eldar's favour but it's going to be bloody and verging on mutually assured destruction. An intact eldar empire versus age of strife humanity is a different question entirely, especially if the reason the eldar empire hasn't fallen is that the eldar don't dissappear up their own introspective hedonistic butthole and remain the energetic warrior race which fought in the War in Heaven and conquered the galaxy after the enslaver plague died down.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.
Actually, by the time humanity bult its first warp engine and started to colonise the stars in M18, the Eldars were already starting their decadence. They allowed humanity to colonise and spread around hte galaxy because they thought we were funny. If the Fall didn't happened, its probable that neitehr would have their decadence since the two are linked. The Eldar Empire still at full strength would have simply crushed humanity whenever they wanted. One must also remember that due to their decadence Eldars had forgotten war and had to learn it again after the Fall. At the zenith of the Eldar Empire, the basic Eldar warrior was a powerful psyker and elite combattant (think a warlock) since they were unaffraid of using their psychic powers like modern 40K Eldars.
pm713 wrote: How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.
Why would they be allies?
Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...
You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.
As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.
The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?
There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.
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Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.
You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.
Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.
The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.
Actually, by the time humanity bult its first warp engine and started to colonise the stars in M18, the Eldars were already starting their decadence. They allowed humanity to colonise and spread around hte galaxy because they thought we were funny. If the Fall didn't happened, its probable that neitehr would have their decadence since the two are linked. The Eldar Empire still at full strength would have simply crushed humanity whenever they wanted. One must also remember that due to their decadence Eldars had forgotten war and had to learn it again after the Fall. At the zenith of the Eldar Empire, the basic Eldar warrior was a powerful psyker and elite combattant (think a warlock) since they were unaffraid of using their psychic powers like modern 40K Eldars.
Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread. That's your head cannon. The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.
pm713 wrote: How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.
Why would they be allies?
Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...
You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.
As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.
The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?
There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.
You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.
Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.
The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.
That is already been shown to be a FALSE claim. The Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy. LOOK in any Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin Codex map from current or past editions and you will see Eldar planets and sites spanning the galaxy. No matter how many times you repeat that claim, it is still false and this is easily checked with any cursory glance through a Codex.
pm713 wrote: How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.
Why would they be allies?
Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...
You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.
As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.
The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?
There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.
You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.
Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.
The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.
That is already been shown to be a FALSE claim. The Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy. LOOK in any Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin Codex map from current or past editions and you will see Eldar planets and sites spanning the galaxy. No matter how many times you repeat that claim, it is still false and this is easily checked with any cursory glance through a Codex.
Yeah the craftworlds spanned the galaxy, not the Empire its self. The codex even says the craftworlds went far from where the Empire was.
Yeah the craftworlds spanned the galaxy, not the Empire its self. The codex even says the craftworlds went far from where the Empire was.
Wrong again. Ruin sites from the Empire spanned the galaxy. Clearly you know little to nothing about the Eldar and have not even glanced at one of their Codex maps, because you keep repeating this misconception.
The most recent combined map showing all the various Eldar kindred sites is shown in the 7th edition Harlequin Codex, pages 10-11. Everything from Craftworlds to Exodite worlds, to Eldar empire ruins, to the realspace locations corresponding to Commorragh's satellite realm gates (satellite realms were constructed during before the Fall and only subsequently stitched together to form modern Commorragh) is shown. Though the densest concentration is near the Eye, the sites are found from one end of the galaxy to the other.
pm713 wrote: How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.
Why would they be allies?
Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...
You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.
As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.
The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?
There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.
You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.
Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.
The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.
That is already been shown to be a FALSE claim. The Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy. LOOK in any Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin Codex map from current or past editions and you will see Eldar planets and sites spanning the galaxy. No matter how many times you repeat that claim, it is still false and this is easily checked with any cursory glance through a Codex.
Yeah the craftworlds spanned the galaxy, not the Empire its self. The codex even says the craftworlds went far from where the Empire was.
Wrong again. Ruin sites from the Empire spanned the galaxy. Clearly you know little to nothing about the Eldar and have not even glanced at one of their Codex maps, because you keep repeating this misconception.
Okay find me a map that was before the fall. All their crone worlds are stated to be where the eye is. You are mistaking exodite worlds for crone worlds.
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy, as well as depicting Commorragh's satellite realm realspace locations, which date from before the Fall.
Older sources show a similar spread:
World with the Shrine of Elronhir in the galactic north east (4th edition Eldar Codex, p. 15). Elronhir is an Eldar pre-Fall hero that defeated the mon'keigh of legend.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins and Webway gate frames and monoliths all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.
The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.
There is a key difference from thinking for example that Paris is the heart of France, to thinking France consisted only of Paris. The core of the Eldar empire was where the Eye now is, and was where the densest population concentration would have been and where the rot of decadence would have set in earliest, but that does not mean they did not span the galaxy as evidenced by the sources and examples cited.
Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.
Once again:
Combined Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequin/Pre-Fall sites of interest map (7th edition Harlequin Codex, p. 10-11)
World with the Shrine of Elronhir in the galactic north east (4th edition Eldar Codex, p. 15). Elronhir is an Eldar pre-Fall hero that defeated the mon'keigh of legend, and since the Eldar have not built shrines on worlds since the Fall, the Shrine of Elronhir dates from pre-Fall times.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.
The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.
Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.
They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.
The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.
The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.
Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.
They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.
The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.
I don't know if you are pretending to be obtuse to avoid admitting being wrong or whether you just don't get it. Crone worlds explicitly are Eldar empire worlds that were overwhelmed by the warp in the Fall. They are called crone worlds because they are both repositories of pre-Fall Eldar tech, knowledge, and because spirit stones coalesce on them and can be harvested. I have nowhere stated crone worlds must be taken by the Eye of Terror only. I have in fact explicitly given citation of a crone world NOT in the Eye of Terror. I get the feeling you are not reading what other people post and are just repeating your same false and wrong claims over and over as if repeating a falsehood long enough will make it true.
The Harlequin map as I have stated shows sites of interest to the Eldar, which includes pre-Fall sites and Commorragh satellite realms which themselves pre-date the Fall, NOT just Exodite worlds. You are stating something that is categorically false if anyone even so much as glances at that map that was cited. Any other readers can verify what I have claimed.
There is little point responding further to you if you are just going to keep repeating the same wrong things over without evidence and without having actually checked the sources cited, which you clearly have not. If you continue to do so I suspect you are in fact pretending to be obtuse on purpose and this is in fact trolling.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.
The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.
Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.
They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.
The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.
I'm not seeing the contradiction. Crone world is a special term for Eldar planets consumed by the Eye of Terror. The other Eldar worlds that were destroyed would be Exodite, Maiden or other kinds of planet. Exodite ruins are from things like Exodite Worlds that other races have since colonised.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.
The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.
Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.
They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.
The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.
I'm not seeing the contradiction. Crone world is a special term for Eldar planets consumed by the Eye of Terror. The other Eldar worlds that were destroyed would be Exodite, Maiden or other kinds of planet. Exodite ruins are from things like Exodite Worlds that other races have since colonised.
Crone worlds do not have to be in the Eye of Terror. There is an example of one in the Maelstrom as I have repeatedly cited from the BL novel Daemon World. The definition of crone world just means a pre-Fall Eldar world that has since become caught in a warp/realspace overlap. All former Eldar worlds in the Eye of Terror are now crone worlds. That however does not mean all crone worlds need to be in the Eye of Terror.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.
The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.
Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.
They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.
The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.
I don't know if you are pretending to be obtuse to avoid admitting being wrong or whether you just don't get it. Crone worlds explicitly are Eldar empire worlds that were overwhelmed by the warp in the Fall. They are called crone worlds because they are both repositories of pre-Fall Eldar tech, knowledge, and because spirit stones coalesce on them and can be harvested. I have nowhere stated crone worlds must be taken by the Eye of Terror only. I have in fact explicitly given citation of a crone world NOT in the Eye of Terror. I get the feeling you are not reading what other people post and are just repeating your same false and wrong claims over and over as if repeating a falsehood long enough will make it true.
The Harlequin map as I have stated shows sites of interest to the Eldar, which includes pre-Fall sites and Commorragh satellite realms which themselves pre-date the Fall, NOT just Exodite worlds. You are stating something that is categorically false if anyone even so much as glances at that map that was cited. Any other readers can verify what I have claimed.
There is little point responding further to you if you are just going to keep repeating the same wrong things over without evidence and without having actually checked the sources cited, which you clearly have not. If you continue to do so I suspect you are in fact pretending to be obtuse on purpose and this is in fact trolling.
You haven't shown any evidence, the only evidence you have shown is a map that doesn't have anything in it you say, they map log shows webway locations exodite worlds, Imperial worlds and necron worlds. You have explicitly stated that croneworlds are worlds taken by the eye and also said they are outside the eye and have shown no evidence stating that so yeah I'm be acute when you show me proof lol I mean all the lore says that all crone worlds reside in the eye of terror.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium." 40k wiki
Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.
"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
Now that the issue has been settled that the Eldar empire DID span the galaxy, I think we should turn back to the hypothetical of what if the Eldar empire had never fallen.
The issue is what are the conditions for never fallen. Do we mean a decadent empire like the Dark Eldar? Or do we mean an empire that never became decadent in the first place?
It might not be that different actually if it is the former, because a decadent empire that is internally focused on itself would not necessarily interfere with other races except for slave/pleasure raiding. Dark Eldar writ large may be unpleasant but the empire might be too indolent to actually do anything beyond safeguarding its existing interests. So long as humanity stayed clear of those, and absorbed the losses by raiding, humanity might still have been able to colonize across the galaxy.
Iracundus wrote: Now that the issue has been settled that the Eldar empire DID span the galaxy, I think we should turn back to the hypothetical of what if the Eldar empire had never fallen.
The issue is what are the conditions for never fallen. Do we mean a decadent empire like the Dark Eldar? Or do we mean an empire that never became decadent in the first place?
Conversely if the Eldar empire remained vibrant as in its heyday, then its galaxy spanning expanse would allow it to nip any emerging other empires in the bud since non-decadent Eldar would still be paying attention to the bigger picture. Though we know from the Gav Thorpe novels that even in the days of their rise and power, there were still alien races across the galaxy, just subservient or overshadowed by the Eldar. So again the Eldar were not bent on omnicidal extermination, but the opportunity for expansion might be more limited in such a case compared to a decadent empire that is no longer paying attention, since any power growing great enough to attract attention then might be squished.
Iracundus wrote: You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.
The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.
Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'
I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.
Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.
The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.
Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.
They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.
The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.
I'm not seeing the contradiction. Crone world is a special term for Eldar planets consumed by the Eye of Terror. The other Eldar worlds that were destroyed would be Exodite, Maiden or other kinds of planet. Exodite ruins are from things like Exodite Worlds that other races have since colonised.
Crone worlds do not have to be in the Eye of Terror. There is an example of one in the Maelstrom as I have repeatedly cited from the BL novel Daemon World. The definition of crone world just means a pre-Fall Eldar world that has since become caught in a warp/realspace overlap. All former Eldar worlds in the Eye of Terror are now crone worlds. That however does not mean all crone worlds need to be in the Eye of Terror.
Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?
Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?
Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.
The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.
Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.
Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?
Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.
The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.
Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.
Now who's moving the goal posts. The only worlds outside of the eye are maiden worlds, which can be found right next to the eye. The exodite's worlds are said to have been far away from the Eldar empire. The empire had connections in the webway in which they can traverse the galaxy, nowhere does it say they expanded their empire so far. The Imperium has access routes all over the galaxy, it doesn't mean just because the warp can get them from point a to b that their empire spans the whole galaxy. The webway went to the moon, doesn't mean their empire included mankind's.
Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?
Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.
The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.
Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.
I'd have thought they'd still conduct the initial expansions in a more normal way though. They had to send colony ships through normal space to actually make the Webway portals so if you're going to planet C then you may as well go via planets A and B. Plus if I remember right somewhere it's mentioned that some Eldar did prefer to build their palaces and such in realspace. I think it's Path of the Ranger.
Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?
Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.
The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.
Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.
I'd have thought they'd still conduct the initial expansions in a more normal way though. They had to send colony ships through normal space to actually make the Webway portals so if you're going to planet C then you may as well go via planets A and B. Plus if I remember right somewhere it's mentioned that some Eldar did prefer to build their palaces and such in realspace. I think it's Path of the Ranger.
The Dark Eldar Codex said it was the nobles that first built the satellite realms in the Webway. Presumably that means engineering your own pocket realm takes resources beyond the reach of your average pre-Fall Eldar.
As for their expansion pattern, it may have started out that way, explaining the greater concentration in what is now the Eye of Terror. Once the Eldar were secure however, they seem to have been more picky. I mean they seeded Maiden worlds and were willing to wait for them to mature according to design rather than settle for anything less than an engineered paradise. We don't seem to find any examples of marginally inhabitable worlds like the Imperium settles. Worlds like Taros for example.
There is no requirement that Webway portals have to be on a planet. They also exist in the depths of space for Eldar ships to use. The expanding Eldar therefore did not have to settle every planet in the vicinity. Settle planet C, plonk a few Webway gates in space as stop over points if need be to get to planet D. Ignore planets A and B which are hellholes by comparison to planet C.
Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?
Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.
The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.
Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.
I'd have thought they'd still conduct the initial expansions in a more normal way though. They had to send colony ships through normal space to actually make the Webway portals so if you're going to planet C then you may as well go via planets A and B. Plus if I remember right somewhere it's mentioned that some Eldar did prefer to build their palaces and such in realspace. I think it's Path of the Ranger.
The Dark Eldar Codex said it was the nobles that first built the satellite realms in the Webway. Presumably that means engineering your own pocket realm takes resources beyond the reach of your average pre-Fall Eldar.
As for their expansion pattern, it may have started out that way, explaining the greater concentration in what is now the Eye of Terror. Once the Eldar were secure however, they seem to have been more picky. I mean they seeded Maiden worlds and were willing to wait for them to mature according to design rather than settle for anything less than an engineered paradise. We don't seem to find any examples of marginally inhabitable worlds like the Imperium settles. Worlds like Taros for example.
There is no requirement that Webway portals have to be on a planet. They also exist in the depths of space for Eldar ships to use. The expanding Eldar therefore did not have to settle every planet in the vicinity. Settle planet C, plonk a few Webway gates in space as stop over points if need be to get to planet D. Ignore planets A and B which are hellholes by comparison to planet C.
What was the crone world called in daemon world? The world in the book is called Torvendis and nothing is said of it being a crone world that I can find.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.
Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.
The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.
That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.
Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.
The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.
That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.
Can you quote the 4th edition bit? Mastery does not necessarily mean dominance over the galaxy or that they spanned the whole galaxy, i.e mastery of the webway but they didn't span the galaxy, so I would just put that down to 'they probably could if they wanted to' or that 'nothing could block their progress' etc. I mean many exodite worlds were also swallowed by the eye of terror and again they were far away from the Empire.
Just because they didn't wage war doesn't mean that they wouldn't have to if there was a sufficient threat. Its even said that there were no serious wars or threats towards the Eldar up until the fall and just saying they could wipe out anyone if they wanted to doesn't make it so. Mankind never went to war with the Eldar at that time, no one here has any evidence suggesting either side would win but all the Eldar fans are all asserting that the Eldar would win, without much evidence. I mean I think the eldar would probably win against mankind during the DAOT, but I'm not asserting that.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.
Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.
The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.
That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.
Can you quote the 4th edition bit? Mastery does not necessarily mean dominance over the galaxy or that they spanned the whole galaxy, i.e mastery of the webway but they didn't span the galaxy, so I would just put that down to 'they probably could if they wanted to' or that 'nothing could block their progress' etc. I mean many exodite worlds were also swallowed by the eye of terror and again they were far away from the Empire.
Just because they didn't wage war doesn't mean that they wouldn't have to if there was a sufficient threat. Its even said that there were no serious wars or threats towards the Eldar up until the fall and just saying they could wipe out anyone if they wanted to doesn't make it so. Mankind never went to war with the Eldar at that time, no one here has any evidence suggesting either side would win but all the Eldar fans are all asserting that the Eldar would win, without much evidence. I mean I think the eldar would probably win against mankind during the DAOT, but I'm not asserting that.
And you would be right, in fact you have been right about everything so far, and the reason you cannot find a reference to the planet in Deamon world being a crone world is because it is not, its a sentient Eldar maiden world that has been broken to the will of the chaos gods and the marine that did it wants his soul back from the gods and frees the planet leading to its destruction, we dont know if he got his soul back sadly.
anyway, that gets rid of his one and only example of a "crone" world outside the eldar empires borders, since its not a crone world, its a maiden world corrupted by chaos, not the same thing since it can fight off that corruption, it eats a deamon prince IIRC too which is kinda funny.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.
Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.
The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.
That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.
Can you quote the 4th edition bit? Mastery does not necessarily mean dominance over the galaxy or that they spanned the whole galaxy, i.e mastery of the webway but they didn't span the galaxy, so I would just put that down to 'they probably could if they wanted to' or that 'nothing could block their progress' etc. I mean many exodite worlds were also swallowed by the eye of terror and again they were far away from the Empire.
Just because they didn't wage war doesn't mean that they wouldn't have to if there was a sufficient threat. Its even said that there were no serious wars or threats towards the Eldar up until the fall and just saying they could wipe out anyone if they wanted to doesn't make it so. Mankind never went to war with the Eldar at that time, no one here has any evidence suggesting either side would win but all the Eldar fans are all asserting that the Eldar would win, without much evidence. I mean I think the eldar would probably win against mankind during the DAOT, but I'm not asserting that.
And you would be right, in fact you have been right about everything so far, and the reason you cannot find a reference to the planet in Deamon world being a crone world is because it is not, its a sentient Eldar maiden world that has been broken to the will of the chaos gods and the marine that did it wants his soul back from the gods and frees the planet leading to its destruction, we dont know if he got his soul back sadly.
anyway, that gets rid of his one and only example of a "crone" world outside the eldar empires borders, since its not a crone world, its a maiden world corrupted by chaos, not the same thing since it can fight off that corruption, it eats a deamon prince IIRC too which is kinda funny.
Yeah I thought so, he also said that the Harlequin codex showed the old eldar empire, which it doesn't at all. I would suggest head cannon but...
Bharring wrote: What is canon is that the Fall happened because the Eldar were not challenged in the galaxy.
What is also canon is that the DAoT happened before the Fall.
Further, it is also canon that Eldar interacted with Mankind pre-fall. Substantially.
Therefore, regardless of the details, the DAoT did not challenge the Eldar empire.
The Imperium and Eldar interact in the 41st mellenium, doesn't mean that the Eldar don't challange the Imperium. You don;t even know what the interaction entailed. They did not interact substantially though.
Bharring wrote: What is canon is that the Fall happened because the Eldar were not challenged in the galaxy.
What is also canon is that the DAoT happened before the Fall.
Further, it is also canon that Eldar interacted with Mankind pre-fall. Substantially.
Therefore, regardless of the details, the DAoT did not challenge the Eldar empire.
The Imperium and Eldar interact in the 41st mellenium, doesn't mean that the Eldar don't challange the Imperium. You don;t even know what the interaction entailed. They did not interact substantially though.
Eldar "challenge" the IoM all the time. Fights between the two happen regularly.
As for interaction during the DAoT, we know:
1. The Eldar were present in the Sol system
2. The Eldar studied Mankind's development
3. The Eldar were not challenged before the Fall
4. The Fall happened long after the DAoT
It's hard to accept that the Eldar were in the Sol system, were looking for a challenge, interacted with Mankind during DAoT, didn't find a challege in the DAoT, but somehow the Eldar couldn't stand up to DAoT. Obviously, at least one of those must be bunk - and DAoT standing up to pre-Fall Eldar is the only one that isn't supported in the fluff.
From what I've read, the Eldar were likely superior in technology to the DAOT Mankind, but specifically in their use of psychic tech. But the Eldar had no major reason to fight humanity back then.
The Galaxy is big. Ludicrously big. Incredibly incomprehensibly big. You don't draw a circle around territory in the galaxy, because most of it is empty space and empty star systems. Empires are identified by the worlds and star systems that they own. The Ancient Eldar wouldn't have cared what humans did, as long as the Humans didn't bother anything. There's more than enough territory throughout the galaxy for humans to have planets. By the time the advanced part of humanity started to really get near the Eldar in effective strength, neither had any reason to fight.
Sure the Eldar have webway gates all over, but that doesn't mean they felt like every planet with a gate was property. most of them are just secret doors. And hell, wasn't the webway built by the Old Ones anyway? The Eldar are just squatters who know how to maintain and upgrade it (unless that got retconned).
The Eldar challenge the Imperium now, because they have reasons to fight. The eldar that are left are either dark eldar who steal slaves, or craftworld eldar who wander around destroying humans who bother their wierd prophecies, or they're after humans who bother exodite worlds.
argonak wrote: From what I've read, the Eldar were likely superior in technology to the DAOT Mankind, but specifically in their use of psychic tech. But the Eldar had no major reason to fight humanity back then.
You're thinking like a human, not like an Eldar.
Eldar would have had good reason to fight Humanity, if they were a challenge; the Eldar were bored. They'd do (and did) anything for a challenge. There was no challenge in the galaxy. That's core to their Fall.
The Galaxy is big. Ludicrously big. Incredibly incomprehensibly big. You don't draw a circle around territory in the galaxy, because most of it is empty space and empty star systems. Empires are identified by the worlds and star systems that they own. The Ancient Eldar wouldn't have cared what humans did, as long as the Humans didn't bother anything. There's more than enough territory throughout the galaxy for humans to have planets. By the time the advanced part of humanity started to really get near the Eldar in effective strength, neither had any reason to fight.
If Mankind advanced to get anywhere close to Eldar, perhaps Mankind would not have had reason to fight. But if Mankind advanced anywhere close to Eldar, The Eldar would have reason to fight. To put Mankind back in their place. For the challenge. For the fun of it.
Sure the Eldar have webway gates all over, but that doesn't mean they felt like every planet with a gate was property. most of them are just secret doors. And hell, wasn't the webway built by the Old Ones anyway? The Eldar are just squatters who know how to maintain and upgrade it (unless that got retconned).
Yes - the Old Ones created the Webway. But the Old Ones were gone long before Human development - it was Eldar who were interested in that, not Old Ones.
The Eldar challenge the Imperium now, because they have reasons to fight. The eldar that are left are either dark eldar who steal slaves, or craftworld eldar who wander around destroying humans who bother their wierd prophecies, or they're after humans who bother exodite worlds.
Note that Biel Tan will/would have picked fights with IoM to expand territory; they wanted to bring about a new Eldar Empire more than most, despite not really being strong enough to.
Bharring wrote: What is canon is that the Fall happened because the Eldar were not challenged in the galaxy.
What is also canon is that the DAoT happened before the Fall.
Further, it is also canon that Eldar interacted with Mankind pre-fall. Substantially.
Therefore, regardless of the details, the DAoT did not challenge the Eldar empire.
The Imperium and Eldar interact in the 41st mellenium, doesn't mean that the Eldar don't challange the Imperium. You don;t even know what the interaction entailed. They did not interact substantially though.
Eldar "challenge" the IoM all the time. Fights between the two happen regularly.
As for interaction during the DAoT, we know:
1. The Eldar were present in the Sol system
2. The Eldar studied Mankind's development
3. The Eldar were not challenged before the Fall
4. The Fall happened long after the DAoT
It's hard to accept that the Eldar were in the Sol system, were looking for a challenge, interacted with Mankind during DAoT, didn't find a challege in the DAoT, but somehow the Eldar couldn't stand up to DAoT. Obviously, at least one of those must be bunk - and DAoT standing up to pre-Fall Eldar is the only one that isn't supported in the fluff.
"The eldar challange the Imperium all the time" yeah that's my point.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable. I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
pm713 wrote: So if you don't like it it's bs lore?
No that's a complete strawman, I said explicitly said that I concede to it, it's just in my opinion not well written lore. I mean the Eldar empire was unlike any other in is technological achievements but to say that they were indomitable, especially considering post fall eldar just seems a bit like codex bias. Especially when the Necrons technology rivals the Eldars.
At its inception, the Necron paused a threat to the Eldar Empire. In fact, the Necrons were the last menace to the Eldar's dominion over the galaxy. before the Fall. It's also a menace they triumphed from. The Necrons were too weakened by their war against the C'tan and preferred to retreat and hide more than risk to fight the Eldars.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
It could also be that they spanned the galaxy with their empire, too, yet simply had some of that volume interrupted by the existence of Orks accross various sections. Elsewhere the Eye of Terror is described as being merely "the heart" of their empire. This would be the same situation as the Imperium would be later. The Imperium also "spans the galaxy", but there's a lot of territory taken up by Orks or other races that the Imperium either hasnt fully conquered, or bypassed by mistake or disinterest. Likewise the Imperium has its own "heart" and fringes.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable. I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
Obviously no empire is indestructible, it was just the case during their reign that no other faction threatened them, to the extent that the Eldar themselves became their own worst enemy. And by the time of the Fall that empire may have been "spanning the galaxy" for millions of years prior.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
GW are IoM fanboys, not Eldar fanboys.
They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China. So no it didn't reach the Sol system.
"That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar." complete conjecture.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: [They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China.
No, Alexander the great couldn't go to China or Russia because people don't let foreign armies and generals pass trough their territory unopposed. It's also good to note that there are webway gates, Eldar ruins, Maiden and Exodite Worlds in all Segmentum of the galaxy (let alone their massive fleets) which implies that even though the heart of the Eldar Empire was in the region now known as the Eye of Terror, they had territory well outside it.
When you have an unparalleled mastery of the galaxy, you don't have rivals. The US don't have a unparalleled mastery of Earth, yet no single country can hope to defeat it. Now imagine a country even more powerful, let say a country that would have the power of the entire Western World combined, that's something closer to an unparalleled mastery of Earth.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: [They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China.
No, Alexander the great couldn't go to China or Russia because people don't let foreign armies and generals pass trough their territory unopposed. It's also good to note that there are webway gates, Eldar ruins, Maiden and Exodite Worlds in all Segmentum of the galaxy (let alone their massive fleets) which implies that even though the heart of the Eldar Empire was in the region now known as the Eye of Terror, they had territory well outside it.
When you have an unparalleled mastery of the galaxy, you don't have rivals. The US don't have a unparalleled mastery of Earth, yet no single country can hope to defeat it. Now imagine a country even more powerful, let say a country that would have the power of the entire Western World combined, that's something closer to an unparalleled mastery of Earth.
"No, Alexander the great couldn't go to China or Russia because people don't let foreign armies and generals pass trough their territory unopposed. "
Nonsense, Alexandra didn't go there because he didn't know those places existed, Alexander conquered everywhere he went after leaving Greece.
Maiden worlds were not apart of the Empire, the exodites left the empire. The empire was solely withing the eye. Just like rogue traders traverse the outer rims of the galaxy but they aren't considered in the Imperium until those worlds make contact, pay taxes and tithes etc. I mean its ridiculous if someone from the Imperium decides to leave and go to the outer rims of the galaxy, then that extends the Empire, again ridiculous.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
GW are IoM fanboys, not Eldar fanboys.
They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China. So no it didn't reach the Sol system.
I'm not saying their *Empire* "reached" Sol - I'm saying the Eldar themselves did. Meaning they had exposure to Mankind pre-fall. Meaning that it's not a simple case of the Eldar not knowing about DAoT. Meaning that, if DAoT could have been a challenge, the Eldar would have known.
"That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar." complete conjecture.
The fall ending dominance/begetting the campaign: Canon.
The Fall happening because the Eldar were unchallenged: Canon.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Canon.
Eldar being exposed to Mankind: Canon.
"Conjecture":
If DAoT Mankind were to challenge the Eldar, they were not unchallenged.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
GW are IoM fanboys, not Eldar fanboys.
They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China. So no it didn't reach the Sol system.
I'm not saying their *Empire* "reached" Sol - I'm saying the Eldar themselves did. Meaning they had exposure to Mankind pre-fall. Meaning that it's not a simple case of the Eldar not knowing about DAoT. Meaning that, if DAoT could have been a challenge, the Eldar would have known.
"That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar." complete conjecture.
The fall ending dominance/begetting the campaign: Canon.
The Fall happening because the Eldar were unchallenged: Canon.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Canon.
Eldar being exposed to Mankind: Canon.
"Conjecture":
If DAoT Mankind were to challenge the Eldar, they were not unchallenged.
I'd say that's a fairly safe conclusion.
No one said the eldar didn't know about mankind during the DAOT.
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Them being present at the sol system is completely irrelevant
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
How about Exodite world in other Segmentum. Some were devoured by Hive Fleet Naga which was in Ultima Segmentum or those defended by Biel-Tan in the Pacificus?
PS: The Hellenistic Empire traded with several Indian and Chinese kingdoms. They also knew about Scythia with which they both traded and against whome they waged war several times, in modern Ukraine and Russia, and never conquered it either. Of course, they also knew the Romans and the Carthaginians. You don't seem to know much about hellenistic Grece. I suggest you use a more familiar period for your analogies.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
How about Exodite world in other Segmentum. Some were devoured by Hive Fleet Naga which was in Ultima Segmentum?
Read the thread Maiden worlds spanned the galaxy the EMPIRE did not.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
Insectum7 wrote: The idea of Eldar fighting Orks as a challenge is like the US military being "challenged" by a herd of cattle.
The orks are 'the' dominant species in the galaxy. Look at the eldar now, in even pitched battles they struggle to survive.
Now, sure.
And we know the Eldar and the Koruks (pre-Orkz) both fought the same enemy in the War in Heaven - and Eldar came out of that conflict with undisputed dominance.
And Orkz were an even bigger threat before the Great Crusade.
And we know the Eldar Empire wasn't threatened by Orkz.
Considering the Maiden and Exodite Worlds are part of the Empire since they are colonies, thus the Empire spanned the galaxy much like the British Empire spanned the entire world despite the fact the heart of the Empire, the British Isle, is only a small part of it.
Insectum7 wrote: The idea of Eldar fighting Orks as a challenge is like the US military being "challenged" by a herd of cattle.
The orks are 'the' dominant species in the galaxy. Look at the eldar now, even in equally pitched battles they struggle to survive.
We're not talking about present 40k, we're talking about the height of the Eldar Empire when they were canonically unchallenged. Sure, there were Orks back then, they just posed zero threat to the dominance of Eldar, in the way that cattle pose zero threat to the dominance of humanity.
The fall ending dominance/begetting the campaign: Canon.
The fall ending the Empire that had been failing for a very long time: Canon
Great crusade kicking off due to the emperor seeing this coming: Canon
The Fall happening because the Eldar were unchallenged: Canon.
The fall happening because the eldar were unchallenged: Conjecture due to having little to no information on the era.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Canon.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Conjecture there is a webway gate there, we do not know if the eldar used it or even knew of it at the time, its a good guess that they did, but its a guess none the less.
Eldar being exposed to Mankind: Canon.
Eldar being exposed to mankind: Canon from ONE source, which as someone said earlier apparently is not good enough, I disagree of course.
If DAoT Mankind were to challenge the Eldar, they were not unchallenged.
Canon, DAOT were unchallenged, Canon, Eldar were unchallenged , Conjecture: you seem to believe that means eldar were not challenged by DAOT when you have just as much evidence that DAOT humans were not challenged by Eldar. Conjecture: they did not challenge each other through choice, either through an alliance as stated by the eldar OR through mutually assured destruction, you leave me alone, I leave you alone, we dont challenge each other.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
[...]
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
Delvarus Centurion wrote: That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
How can they be challenged if they have an unparalled mastery of the galaxy? They had no equals or rivals. That's what an unparalled mastery of the galaxy means. No one could challenge their mastery of the galaxy. They didn't occupied all of it much like the imperium only occupies a minuscule part of it (it's just a million worlds in a galaxy of over 200 millions stars), but what they didn't occupied they either controled or had a great influence on (else we can't call that a mastery of the galaxy). Where does it says in the fluff that Eldars had serious rivals or even challengers?
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
The point is that it's meaningless; you're arguing that every Eldar world absorbed by the Eye of Terror was inside the Eye of Terror. That has no bearing on any world that wasn't in the Eye of Terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
Certainly. But they also used the Webway, too. And some had even moved in there pre-Fall, but that wasn't the point; the point was the closest route from point A to B, for a webway-capable race, is not necessarily the distance between A and B. So it's possible a system halfway across the galaxy is closer than the next system over.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
Certainly. To settle on it's fringes. Which included settlements on the other side of the galaxy - not all Exodite worlds were near the eye, physically.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
There's no reason to believe the Eldar *didn't* have forces all over the galaxy. Which is a lot easier when the Webway makes much of the galaxy a much smaller place.
[...]
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
A challenge is a purpose (albeit not the only one), especially for the Eldar. So if they had a challenge they had a purpose. Thus, to have no purpose they must, necessarily, have no challenge.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
The point is that it's meaningless; you're arguing that every Eldar world absorbed by the Eye of Terror was inside the Eye of Terror. That has no bearing on any world that wasn't in the Eye of Terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
Certainly. But they also used the Webway, too. And some had even moved in there pre-Fall, but that wasn't the point; the point was the closest route from point A to B, for a webway-capable race, is not necessarily the distance between A and B. So it's possible a system halfway across the galaxy is closer than the next system over.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
Certainly. To settle on it's fringes. Which included settlements on the other side of the galaxy - not all Exodite worlds were near the eye, physically.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
There's no reason to believe the Eldar *didn't* have forces all over the galaxy. Which is a lot easier when the Webway makes much of the galaxy a much smaller place.
[...]
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
A challenge is a purpose (albeit not the only one), especially for the Eldar. So if they had a challenge they had a purpose. Thus, to have no purpose they must, necessarily, have no challenge.
I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that every Empire (crone worlds) were absorbed by the eye of terror which is fact. I never said crone worlds existed outside the eye of terror. if you aren't going to read all my comments I'm not going to continue arguing with you.
No the empire did not stretch to the exodite worlds, the exodite worlds LEFT the empire.
Not all were near the eye physically but even if they were only one near the eye that also proves that the empire is and was where the eye of terror was as the maiden worlds were on and past the fringes of the empire.
Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
They had an unparalled mastery of the galaxy.
You can't have a mastery of something if you can't control pretty much all aspect of something.
It's also mentionned that the Orks were regularly culled by the Eldar automaton warriors. Since Orks are pretty much everywhere, this needed forces a bit everywhere in the galaxy. Maiden worlds which are scattered around the galaxy, are built. It thus require fleets of terraforming ships and engine and troops to secure them if need be.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
The point is that it's meaningless; you're arguing that every Eldar world absorbed by the Eye of Terror was inside the Eye of Terror. That has no bearing on any world that wasn't in the Eye of Terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
Certainly. But they also used the Webway, too. And some had even moved in there pre-Fall, but that wasn't the point; the point was the closest route from point A to B, for a webway-capable race, is not necessarily the distance between A and B. So it's possible a system halfway across the galaxy is closer than the next system over.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
Certainly. To settle on it's fringes. Which included settlements on the other side of the galaxy - not all Exodite worlds were near the eye, physically.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
There's no reason to believe the Eldar *didn't* have forces all over the galaxy. Which is a lot easier when the Webway makes much of the galaxy a much smaller place.
[...]
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
A challenge is a purpose (albeit not the only one), especially for the Eldar. So if they had a challenge they had a purpose. Thus, to have no purpose they must, necessarily, have no challenge.
I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that every Empire (crone worlds) were absorbed by the eye of terror which is fact.
All worlds that are now Crone Worlds were absorbed by the Eye of Terror. Tautalogical - it's the definition of Crone World, so is true by definition. Adds nothing.
No fluff says that every world in the Empire became a Crone World. You are conflating the two.
I never said crone worlds existed outside the eye of terror. if you aren't going to read all my comments I'm not going to continue arguing with you.
As above, you're making arguments based on the idea that every former Empire world is now a Crone World. That's where things are falling aparat.
No the empire did not stretch to the exodite worlds, the exodite worlds LEFT the empire.
And settled on it's fringes - which means the Empire's fringes extended to every Exodite world.
Not all were near the eye physically but even if they were only one near the eye that also proves that the empire is and was where the eye of terror was
It means that some of the fringes of the Empire were near the eye, whereas other fringes were not. Which can mean a couple different things:
1. That the Empire wasn't anywhere near spherical
2. That the "fringe" of the Empire shifted over time
3. Or, that these worlds weren't necessarily on the fringe of the Emprie (which would challenge canon)
The first two demand that the Empire indeed be massive before the Fall. The third would mean the placement of Exodite worlds wouldn't matter.
as the maiden worlds were on and past the fringes of the empire.
There were certainly unsettled Maiden worlds, intended to become Eldar (Empire or Exodite) worlds in the future - but there were also *Exodite* worlds that far away. As above, that means the fringe of the Empire went that far.
Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
You argued that they *didn't* have *forces* all over the galaxy. I'm saying we don't know whether they had standing forces all over the galaxy.
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
That's not headcanon. You even posted yourself accepting that they Fell because they had no purpose, and now you're dismissing it as headcanon?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
They had an unparalled mastery of the galaxy.
You can't have a mastery of something if you can't control pretty much all aspect of something.
It's also mentionned that the Orks were regularly culled by the Eldar automaton warriors. Since Orks are pretty much everywhere, this needed forces a bit everywhere in the galaxy. Maiden worlds which are scattered around the galaxy, are built. It thus require fleets of terraforming ships and engine and troops to secure them if need be.
I've already stated that I believe they probably 'could' have dominance over the galaxy but they didn't, they had the ability to dominate the galaxy, which I already conceded (I really wish people would read the thread before commenting) but they DIDN'T dominate the galaxy, they stayed in their empire.
So your argument is that, while the Eldar were the "unparalleled masters of the galaxy" and "held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy", they didn't dominate the galaxy, and just stayed inside their insignificant part of it?
Bharring wrote: So your argument is that, while the Eldar were the "unparalleled masters of the galaxy" and "held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy", they didn't dominate the galaxy, and just stayed inside their insignificant part of it?
No, I'm saying their Empire was within the space that became the eye of terror, which is fact and that they were most likely unparalleled masters but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Bharring wrote: So your argument is that, while the Eldar were the "unparalleled masters of the galaxy" and "held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy", they didn't dominate the galaxy, and just stayed inside their insignificant part of it?
No, I'm saying their Empire was within the space that became the eye of terror, which is fact and that they were most likely unparalleled masters but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
Why do you struggle with the fact that the Eldar Empire was beyond the eye of terror? It's very clearly not restrained to the eye.
Insectum7 wrote: 8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Even that is reading too far into sentence structure.
"When the warships of the United States were hit by the attack at Pearl Harbor [...]" is a valid statement - it doesn't mean *all* American warships were hit. It's a statement about the warships that were hit there.
Likewise, even without 'central' in that sentence, it doesn't necessitate that the sentence speaks to *all* the worlds of the Eldar Empire.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: . . . but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
Codex Eldar 8th Ed, pg 9 ". . . the Aeldari must also contend with a galaxy that is no longer theirs." As in, it was theirs before the fall.
The Age of Technology also saw mankind expanding to colonies across the galaxy, but they weren't a threat to the Eldar, though they often had contact with them. The Eldar in general apparently just didn't care that humans (or anyone else) was there. To them it was like tribes of monkeys building societies and fighting wars in the "Empire" of the Congo.
Insectum7 wrote: 8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Even that is reading too far into sentence structure.
"When the warships of the United States were hit by the attack at Pearl Harbor [...]" is a valid statement - it doesn't mean *all* American warships were hit. It's a statement about the warships that were hit there.
Likewise, even without 'central' in that sentence, it doesn't necessitate that the sentence speaks to *all* the worlds of the Eldar Empire.
Ahh true, true. A reasonable point. There are statements here and there that are a little open and more ambiguous, but taken altogether they paint a pretty clear picture, imo.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: . . . but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
Codex Eldar 8th Ed, pg 9 ". . . the Aeldari must also contend with a galaxy that is no longer theirs." As in, it was theirs before the fall.
The Age of Technology also saw mankind expanding to colonies across the galaxy, but they weren't a threat to the Eldar, though they often had contact with them. The Eldar in general apparently just didn't care that humans (or anyone else) was there. To them it was like tribes of monkeys building societies and fighting wars in the "Empire" of the Congo.
Insectum7 wrote: 8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Even that is reading too far into sentence structure.
"When the warships of the United States were hit by the attack at Pearl Harbor [...]" is a valid statement - it doesn't mean *all* American warships were hit. It's a statement about the warships that were hit there.
Likewise, even without 'central' in that sentence, it doesn't necessitate that the sentence speaks to *all* the worlds of the Eldar Empire.
Ahh true, true. A reasonable point. There are statements here and there that are a little open and more ambiguous, but taken altogether they paint a pretty clear picture, imo.
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
Once again, you conflate Eldar Empire-held world with Crone World.
Imagine two practically-identical Eldar worlds. One was inside the Eye, the other outside. The first became a Crone World, the second did not.
Once again: a Crone World is *defined* as being an Eldar world swallowed by the warp. It is *not* a term for "Pre-Fall Eldar world".
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
Once again, you conflate Eldar Empire-held world with Crone World.
Imagine two practically-identical Eldar worlds. One was inside the Eye, the other outside. The first became a Crone World, the second did not.
Once again: a Crone World is *defined* as being an Eldar world swallowed by the warp. It is *not* a term for "Pre-Fall Eldar world".
Because you's haven't given one single shred of proof:
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.
"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
I mean you can keep ignoring that due to your biases but I can't be bothered with that.
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
Once again, you conflate Eldar Empire-held world with Crone World.
Imagine two practically-identical Eldar worlds. One was inside the Eye, the other outside. The first became a Crone World, the second did not.
Once again: a Crone World is *defined* as being an Eldar world swallowed by the warp. It is *not* a term for "Pre-Fall Eldar world".
Because you's haven't given one single shred of proof:
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.
"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
I mean you can keep ignoring that due to your biases but I can't be bothered with that.
Exactly NONE of that says that Crone worlds were the only Eldar worlds.
Because you's haven't given one single shred of proof:
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
That quote shows that the Crone Worlds and Eldar Homeworlds were consumed by the Eye of Terror; it doesn't say - or even suggest - that all Eldar worlds were Crone Worlds and/or Eldar Homeworlds. Where are you getting that all Eldar worlds became Crone Worlds?
Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.
"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
I mean you can keep ignoring that due to your biases but I can't be bothered with that.
If the Exodites settled on the fringe of the Eldar Empire, and the Exodites settled in practically every segment of the galaxy, then didn't the fringes of the Eldar empire reach every segment (or near to)?
The fringes of the empire is the outer edges, can mean just outside (or just inside), or areas that could be considered either inside or outside. It doesn't mean half a galaxy away. So if Exodites all settled on the fringes of the Empire, and some of those settlements are on the other side of the galaxy, then the Empire must have stretched just short of there - in other words, well beyond the Eye.
You keep arguing that the Eldar empire must be limited to the Eye because there are Exodite worlds just outside of it and Exodites settled on the fringe - but those weren't the only Exodite worlds.
(Also, while the galaxy is drawn as a disk, an Empire exists in three dimensions - at any given [x,y] point in the galaxy where the Empire would be, there'd be at least two [x,y,z] points with the same [x,y] that would be it's boundary/fringe.)
It is true that the Eldar didn't settle every world in the galaxy. It's also likely (but not made explicit) that the Eldar did not station forces in every corner of the galaxy. But it's extremely clear the Eldar Empire extended beyond the core worlds.
I get the distinct impression bharing that you don't actually know what a crone world is, nor what makes an exodite world and exodite world and lastly what a maiden world is, can you explain exactly what these are for me please.
Crone world: Eldar world overcome by Chaos
Exodite world: World settled by Exodites
Maiden world: World prepared for, or ready for, Eldar expansion (but not currently inhabited)
Unless they changed the meanings. But "Crone World" isn't just any Eldar world - it must be overcome by Chaos.
Crone world: eldar world from the old empire overcome by chaos, we know this from the previous failed example of a crone world outside the eye, it was a maiden world overcome by chaos, but still a maiden world.
Exodite worlds: world's where eldar left the old empire and settled outside of the empire, if the empire was galaxy wide these world's would be found outside the milky way, they are not.
Maiden world: artificially created world's likely created through terraforming, seeded to home the fleeing eldar in the future, possibly all "sentient" as they appear to have souls of a sort (deamon world).
There are plenty of eldar world's over run by chaos that are not crone world's, that seems to reserved to any world within the eye/old empire, so in order to assume that eldar world's outside the old empire can be found, we need some examples of that, as far as I'm aware there are none in the entire setting outside the eye.
Crone world: eldar world from the old empire overcome by chaos, we know this from the previous failed example of a crone world outside the eye, it was a maiden world overcome by chaos, but still a maiden world.
My explanation was a little simplistic. 'Crone World' typically refers to an Eldar Empire world overcome by Chaos. There isn't much debate about whether or not other Chaos-overcome worlds are also considered "Crone Worlds". The argument presented is that all Eldar Empire worlds are Crone Worlds. For which there's been no support from the lore.
Exodite worlds: world's where eldar left the old empire and settled outside of the empire, if the empire was galaxy wide these world's would be found outside the milky way, they are not.
I think we're talking past eachother. I'm not claiming the Eldar Empire settled the entire galaxy. I'm saying they were uparallelled *masters* of the Galaxy. I'm refuting the argument that the entirety of the Empire was within the Eye. The concept that Exodite worlds are found "on the fringes" of the Empire, yet are found all across the galaxy, strongly reject the idea that the Eldar Empire was limited to the eye.
There's also the implication that the Eldar did not project beyond their settled worlds. There's no evidence in support of this, and a crapton of evidence agains this thought.
Maiden world: artificially created world's likely created through terraforming, seeded to home the fleeing eldar in the future, possibly all "sentient" as they appear to have souls of a sort (deamon world).
Aren't most Maiden Worlds incredibly inviting to the Imperium? The remaining Eldar often clash with the Imperium over them. Exodites, when they inhabit them, can rile them up against enemies - but I haven't read anything about uninhabited ones "fighting off" mankind.
There are plenty of eldar world's over run by chaos that are not crone world's, that seems to reserved to any world within the eye/old empire, so in order to assume that eldar world's outside the old empire can be found, we need some examples of that, as far as I'm aware there are none in the entire setting outside the eye.
What would you find? The Eldar that lived there were killed by Slanesh. And the closer to the Eye, the faster. Only those who found an escape (Soulstones, World Spirits, Cegorath, or torture) survived. You'd find xenos ruins - which you find basically everywhere in the galaxy.
Insectum7 wrote: Examples aren't required, just language suggesting that they existed, which we have.
No we dont, we need examples exactly because we dont have language telling us we have.
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My explanation was a little simplistic. 'Crone World' typically refers to an Eldar Empire world overcome by Chaos. There isn't much debate about whether or not other Chaos-overcome worlds are also considered "Crone Worlds". The argument presented is that all Eldar Empire worlds are Crone Worlds. For which there's been no support from the lore.
Well as far as I have found ALL Eldar empire worlds are crone worlds, I am yet to find a reference to a crone world outside the Eye, if we can find one, we can make a fair guess, and it would only be a guess, that there are more.
I think we're talking past eachother. I'm not claiming the Eldar Empire settled the entire galaxy. I'm saying they were uparallelled *masters* of the Galaxy. I'm refuting the argument that the entirety of the Empire was within the Eye. The concept that Exodite worlds are found "on the fringes" of the Empire, yet are found all across the galaxy, strongly reject the idea that the Eldar Empire was limited to the eye.
Yeah thats fair dude, we may be talking past each other, thats why i am asking for clarification and you are giving it, I however disagree, as stated time and time again, Eldar only considered themselves undisputed masters, they are eldar, arrogance and pride are their thing, as are lies and deceit, Eldar were not undisputed masters of the galaxy, they were likely unchallenged masters of their realms but considered themselves masters, if they honestly believed that Orks were not a challenge, they are just lying to themselves, the beast series shows what the Krork were likely like and they are on par with the old Eldar empire quite likely by design, lets not forget both these races were made to fight the necrons, who are the leaps and bounds more powerful than the eldar but weakened by the war in heaven and rebellion against the C'tan.
As for the eldar empire being limited to the eye, if it were not we would not find masses of human worlds all over the galaxy totally surrounding the old empire on all side (galactically speaking), if the Eldar were all over the galaxy then they would have come into conflict with DAOT humans and the human colonies would not be everywhere, Eldar ones would be.
There's also the implication that the Eldar did not project beyond their settled worlds. There's no evidence in support of this, and a crapton of evidence agains this thought.
Ok, I give Delvarus crap for the same thing I am about to give you crap for, stop stating conjecture as fact, there is not a crap ton of evidence, there is almost nothing on pre fall eldar at all let alone what you claim as "a crapton", almost everything we are discussing is based on very little information and thought experiments are fun as long as we dont try to claim something is absolute when by design it is not.
Aren't most Maiden Worlds incredibly inviting to the Imperium? The remaining Eldar often clash with the Imperium over them. Exodites, when they inhabit them, can rile them up against enemies - but I haven't read anything about uninhabited ones "fighting off" mankind.
Yes, they are, they are created pre fall for future eldar to settle and by design paradises, as for fighting off humanity, no I have never come across that either, possibly being sentient or possibly having a soul of some kind does not mean it has the ability to literally fight, it may just be the one maiden world that had this in all fairness, but we know one did so it is possible others did too, we just dont know.
What would you find? The Eldar that lived there were killed by Slanesh. And the closer to the Eye, the faster. Only those who found an escape (Soulstones, World Spirits, Cegorath, or torture) survived. You'd find xenos ruins - which you find basically everywhere in the galaxy.
we would find eldar colonies that are not exodites in the exact same manner we find human colonies, the craftworlds survived by being far enough away from the epicentre of slaaneshes birth, so if there were colonies and pocket empires outside what is now the eye, we would have seen them in the heresy, unless we are now considering that the larger the population the larger impact slaanesh had, so any pocket empires that had large populations all suffered the same fate as the core worlds, all conjecture of course.
Anyway, the great crusade sets off the same time as the old eldar empire falls, we encounter NO eldar worlds outside the eye that we are told about, lots and lots of other races, personally I find the total absence of eldar worlds being mentioned at all in any heresy book very strange, I honestly would expect a few old empire colonies to have survived and have been encountered by the legions, nope, nada, very odd.
Insectum7 wrote: Examples aren't required, just language suggesting that they existed, which we have.
No we dont, we need examples exactly because we dont have language telling us we have.
I mean, you're incorrect in that reasoning, but we don't even need worlds to have existed outside the Eye, as an "Empire" can basically span as far as it's population can travel uncontested. If that doesn't work for you, define for me what makes the extent of an "empire". Any world reachable by webway may have been the Eldar definition, and that would have been to the far flung corners of the galaxy. It could also be said that their empire included all the space in the webway that the Dark Eldar currently travel/inhabit.
What is even being argued here? If the claim is that the "Eldar Empire" extended only to within the area within the realm encompassed by the Eye of Terror, multiple quotes about being "masters of the galaxy etc." appear to be directly at odds with that.
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Formosa wrote: I however disagree, as stated time and time again, Eldar only considered themselves undisputed masters, they are eldar, arrogance and pride are their thing, as are lies and deceit, Eldar were not undisputed masters of the galaxy. . .
again, pg 26 of the 8th edition Craftworld codex ". . .Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. Those lesser races that dare oppose them represent little challenge . . . the supremacy of their great empire is beyond dispute."
"The shining constellations of the Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy" BRB 6th edition, pg. 205
"when Mankinds ancestors had just crawled from the sea, their empire spanned the galaxy"BRB 4th edition, pg. 141
I mean, you're incorrect in that reasoning, but we don't even need worlds to have existed outside the Eye, as an "Empire" can basically span as far as it's population can travel uncontested. If that doesn't work for you, define for me what makes the extent of an "empire". Any world reachable by webway may have been the Eldar definition, and that would have been to the far flung corners of the galaxy. It could also be said that their empire included all the space in the webway that the Dark Eldar currently travel/inhabit.
What is even being argued here? If the claim is that the "Eldar Empire" extended only to within the area within the realm encompassed by the Eye of Terror, multiple quotes about being "masters of the galaxy etc." appear to be directly at odds with that.
Essentially yes, the old eldar empire was confined to the area around the eye, any other worlds they had were either maiden worlds, IE not part of the empire or exodite worlds, IE not part of the empire, and again, they are self professed masters of the galaxy, a typical eldar statement.
again, pg 26 of the 8th edition Craftworld codex ". . .Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. Those lesser races that dare oppose them represent little challenge . . . the supremacy of their great empire is beyond dispute."
"The shining constellations of the Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy" BRB 6th edition, pg. 205
"when Mankinds ancestors had just crawled from the sea, their empire spanned the galaxy"BRB 4th edition, pg. 141
If you got something else, post it.
I already have miltiple times, Eldar, undisputed masters, DAOT, undisputed masters, we know from the heresy series, novels and black books that DAOT humans had tech comparable to Eldar empire tech, we know from main rulebooks that human were "undisputed masters" and won "alien wars" with ease, but you and others choose to ignore the same sources that state humans were top of the head for the same vague sources that state the eldar were, I have been trying to use conjecture to marry the two together, some of you are using heavy bias in favour of eldar to say they are top of the heap, both empires had tech and weapons that were miracle tech tier, we are talking creating stars, ending them, temporal manipulation, space time weapons, black hole cannons etc. etc.
So given all the very little information I state again my conjecture is this, Eldar were allies with DAOT humans for trade and peaceful co-existence because both empires knew that any war would likely end in both sides being utterly ravaged, trade and diplomacy easily explains why a webway on the moon was allowed and also explains why the Eldar allowed themselves to be surrounded on all sides by DOAT humanity on a galactic scale, they were happy in their empires borders and wanted for nothing, this has just as much evidence supporting it as your "eldar are No1 wooooooooooo!"
Where does it says that humans ever had tech just as good as that of the ancient Eldar Empire? The best tech of the Imperium doesn't match the tech of the Eldars who have but a shred of the tools and tech they used to have. The Fall completely destroyed the basis of their tech as shown in the First Heretic novel. The quote about Eldar Empire tech says that it dwarfed the achievement of all other races, that they discovered secrets about hte univers that are now completely lost to time. There is a reason the most prize place of knowledge in the galaxy is the Black Library. It might be the last archive of science, art and philosophy that survived the Fall.
It's also possible that due to minute changes and expention of the timeline that the Eldar Empire decadence started while humanity started its expention. If I'm not mistaken, the creation of the first human Warp drive happens in the same period then the emergence of the pleasure cults within the Eldar Empire and more specifically within Commoragh.
Insectum7 wrote: I see no quotes Formosa. You've said DAoT are "undisputed masters", but not actually backed that up with any quotation.
Thats because I am being very lazy and cant be bothered to grab the rulebook and find the exact page, but its in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th main rulebooks IIRC, not sure its in the 7th one, will have to check.
Anywho, here are some quotes none the less.
"Perfection of the Standard Template Construct (STC) system permitted an explosion of colonisation that reached the furthest limits of the galaxy. This was the zenith of technological development and knowledge-sharing, for even the most far-flung colony had access to the entire inventory of human invention.
Humanity encountered several intelligent alien races during their expansion out into the galaxy, such as the Eldar and the warlike Orks. With these discoveries began, in time, the first human-xenos wars. With Mankind at the height of its power, the threat of aliens was viewed as trivial and eventually non-aggression pacts were signed between Terra, its colonies and many of the alien races.
For the rest of the age, Mankind spread across the stars, becoming widely dispersed and divergent. Evidence exists of many wars, but none that threatened the stability of human space. Amongst the surviving records are lists of xenos enemies that have long since gone extinct, along with more familiar names such as Aeldari and Orks."
"But even that wasn’t fast enough to catch a ship as nimble as one built by the bonesingers of Biel-Tan and guided by the prescient sight of a farseer. The pulse of dark energy coalesced a hundred kilometres off the vessel’s stern and a miniature black hole exploded into life, dragging in everything within its reach with howling force. Stellar matter, light and gravity were crushed as they were drawn in and destroyed, and even the Starblade’s speed and manoeuvrability weren’t enough to save it completely as the secondary effect of the weapon’s deadly energies brushed over its solar sail. Chrono-weaponry shifted its target a nanosecond into the past, by which time the subatomic reactions within every molecule had shifted microscopically and forced identical neutrons into the same quantum space."
So given that Eldar still use the exact same ships, weapons and tech in the heresy mere decades after the fall (Ref: fulgrim) your all gonna be hard pressed to convince me that Eldar out teched DAOT humans by such a large scale that war would be totally one sided, especially considering the above quote having a 40k Ark mechanicus vessel using DAOT weapons to easily smash eldar ships, now if we are gonna talk about possible Eldar weapons surpassing what we have seen them use, well then we are again moving into conjecture territory.
Insectum7 wrote: I see no quotes Formosa. You've said DAoT are "undisputed masters", but not actually backed that up with any quotation.
Thats because I am being very lazy and cant be bothered to grab the rulebook and find the exact page, but its in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th main rulebooks IIRC, not sure its in the 7th one, will have to check.
Anywho, here are some quotes none the less.
"Perfection of the Standard Template Construct (STC) system permitted an explosion of colonisation that reached the furthest limits of the galaxy. This was the zenith of technological development and knowledge-sharing, for even the most far-flung colony had access to the entire inventory of human invention.
Humanity encountered several intelligent alien races during their expansion out into the galaxy, such as the Eldar and the warlike Orks. With these discoveries began, in time, the first human-xenos wars. With Mankind at the height of its power, the threat of aliens was viewed as trivial and eventually non-aggression pacts were signed between Terra, its colonies and many of the alien races.
For the rest of the age, Mankind spread across the stars, becoming widely dispersed and divergent. Evidence exists of many wars, but none that threatened the stability of human space. Amongst the surviving records are lists of xenos enemies that have long since gone extinct, along with more familiar names such as Aeldari and Orks."
"But even that wasn’t fast enough to catch a ship as nimble as one built by the bonesingers of Biel-Tan and guided by the prescient sight of a farseer. The pulse of dark energy coalesced a hundred kilometres off the vessel’s stern and a miniature black hole exploded into life, dragging in everything within its reach with howling force. Stellar matter, light and gravity were crushed as they were drawn in and destroyed, and even the Starblade’s speed and manoeuvrability weren’t enough to save it completely as the secondary effect of the weapon’s deadly energies brushed over its solar sail. Chrono-weaponry shifted its target a nanosecond into the past, by which time the subatomic reactions within every molecule had shifted microscopically and forced identical neutrons into the same quantum space."
So given that Eldar still use the exact same ships, weapons and tech in the heresy mere decades after the fall (Ref: fulgrim) your all gonna be hard pressed to convince me that Eldar out teched DAOT humans by such a large scale that war would be totally one sided, especially considering the above quote having a 40k Ark mechanicus vessel using DAOT weapons to easily smash eldar ships, now if we are gonna talk about possible Eldar weapons surpassing what we have seen them use, well then we are again moving into conjecture territory.
That's easy, I could just say the Eldar didn't care about the human expansion (thus no war), and that the Mechanicus ship got lucky in destroying the Eldar vessel. A destroyed ship doesn't mean that the technologies involved were on par. Those quotes don't really grant you much, to be honest.
That's easy, I could just say the Eldar didn't care about the human expansion (thus no war), and that the Mechanicus ship got lucky in destroying the Eldar vessel. A destroyed ship doesn't mean that the technologies involved were on par. Those quotes don't really grant you much, to be honest.
Again that is your bias showing, "they got lucky" sure, or they out teched the eldar to such a scale the eldar could not compete, see how that works?
And shunting an eldar ship several seconds into the past and firing contained black holes... hmmm what eldar weapons do we know of that are on par with that? oh thats right, D cannons, they shunt stuff into the warp, now what DAOT do we know of that is comparable to shunting things into the warp? oh... void shields, one race weaponised it, the other did not as far as we know, but why bother, imperial defences are much better than eldar ones who do not have shields on a large scale at all, they use holo fields and essentially ECM, kinda like divergent tech trees, almost as if they are.... different races!!!!!
The quote also states that the Eldar and humans fought, but he humans considered it trivial, almost as if Eldar were a minor threat, but the Eldar call themselves undisputed masters of the galaxy, well damn, that must be true then as they clearly wiped out the upstart humans... oh, they didnt, why not? oh, maybe like you say the didnt want to? or more likely, they could not, since the humans say they are above the trivial eldar race, so my bias says I must go with that explanation over all else and just agree that given almost not information I can make that assertion and anyone who disagrees with me is using head canon.... see how that works?
OR
We can try to work out how to marry the two conflicting statements given what little info we have and STOP making assertions based on our bias towards a certain faction, we could even have a little fun with it and talk about what it could have been like in that age for both races...
The ships the humans faced in the Great Crusade were not the war ships of the Eldar Empire. If you remember what has been said earlier, the Eldar Empire military was actally only automatons. Their ships were certainly very different since Craftworlds themselves were trading and colony ships transformed into words. What the Eldar used against humans in the Great Crusade are basically civilian ships rebuilt for war with the tech they managed to salvaged. They are the ship equivalent of a technical vehicle. At the same time. No living Eldar had the slightest clue on how to fight a war by themselves. That's the sort of thing their automatons did for them. So basically, a crew of inexperimented warriors (the Path of the Warrior wasn't all that established during the Great Crusade as evidence by the fact Banshee lacked their famous mask for example) on armed civilian ships are fighting against the most powerful item in mankind arsenal.
BTW your quote said humans and aliens fought. It does mention they met Eldars and Orks, but they never metionned if combat erupted between any of those races. They also mention that treaties were sign, again we don't by which parties. Do you think they signed a treaty with the Orks?
The quote does not explicity say that Eldar and humans fought a war, and certainly not an existential one.
The quote that humans considered the alien threat to be trivial is explicitly from a human bias. The quotes from the Eldar books and BRBs are not stated as the "view" of the Eldar. It's simply stated.
So if we're going to talk biases, let's consider the amount of information, the viewpoint that is given (if any) and the consistency of said information.
We could have fun with it, but we'd also have to stop making assertions like "this has just as much evidence supporting it as your "eldar are No1 wooooooooooo!" when I've posted real evidence.
My opinion of the matter is that the Eldar were on the top of the food chain (because it's stated outright in several places), and that they just didn't care much about the other races on a societal level. I bet there were numerous times Eldar fought with humans, traded with humans, waged war with humans as allies, etc. but that overall the majority of the Eldar were busy "doing Eldar things" and just couldn't be bothered. From humanity's perspective I'd think they knew the Eldar were out there, but just didn't have a complete picture of the Eldar strength for whatever reasons. I'm sure there were humans who felt "unrivaled" even if it wasn't the case, simply because the Eldar didn't care to "rival" them.
At that point, the Eldar Empire was already decaying and falling into isolationism. For the Eldars, humans were primitives. For the humans, Eldars were self-centered hedonists. Neither civilisation perceived the other as a threat. Ironically, humans were correct. Eldars destroyed themselves due to their ubris and Eldars were also correct as humans were just another one of those child race whose dominion would be measured in millennias not millions of years like their own history and dominance.
"Humanity encountered several intelligent alien races during their expansion out into the galaxy, such as the Eldar and the warlike Orks. With these discoveries began, in time, the first human-xenos wars. With Mankind at the height of its power, the threat of aliens was VIEWED as trivial and eventually non-aggression pacts were signed between Terra, its colonies and many of the alien races. "
That says that they only viewed aliens as trivial threats which is a different thing to them genuinely being trivial. Some people in universe in 40k viewed the Eldar as being made up. So it's 100% true that they had the view Eldar aren't real but it's also wrong. The same applies to the DAoT humans. Believing doesn't make it so.
As for an Ark Mechanicus destroying an Eldar ship do we have any source for Eldar using the same ships now as before the Fall? Asuryan himself has a fighter that's really just an upgraded pleasure yacht so it stands to reason that could apply to their battleships as well.
At that point, the Eldar Empire was already decaying and falling into isolationism. For the Eldars, humans were primitives. For the humans, Eldars were self-centered hedonists. Neither civilisation perceived the other as a threat. Ironically, humans were correct. Eldars destroyed themselves due to their ubris and Eldars were also correct as humans were just another one of those child race whose dominion would be measured in millennias not millions of years like their own history and dominance.
I'd agree with most of that, although it's not clear to me that the Eldar were already decaying by that time or if that was more during the Age of Strife. Isolationist tendencies I'd definitely believe. However, I think if the Eldar actually perceived humanity as a threat, any real war would have not gone well for humans.
Ok so again we are taking the extremely unreliable opinion of the eldar who consider themselves the apex of any species that has ever existed and treating it as absolute truth, while at the same time dismissing the same kind of information from the DAOT humans as "opinion"
You guys get that both races considered themselves the apex right?
As for Eldar tech, as stated before, if your going to assert that the eldar had better tech than DAOT humans, your moving into conjecture territory as there is zero evidence of this at all, and plenty on the contrary to show that human tech was on par but different, divergent due to being different races.
And the poor excuse that Eldar lost it all within a couple of decades of the fall is just that, a poor excuse, yes they likely lost some tech but its very convenient to claim that "nuh uh, they lost all the super tech we have never seen or heard of ever"
Its nonsense, current eldar tech is likely the same as Eldar empire tech but with divergences due to time (40k) and culture, and given that Dark Eldar still have some of that old tech.
So I say again, you will be hard pressed to convince me that current eldar tech is much different to old eldar empire tech in terms of vessels and weaponry with little to no evidence existing, if you guys want to engage in conjecture, sure lets do that.
Formosa wrote: Ok so again we are taking the extremely unreliable opinion of the eldar who consider themselves the apex of any species that has ever existed and treating it as absolute truth, while at the same time dismissing the same kind of information from the DAOT humans as "opinion"
Right, because one is expressed as the opinion of humans, and the other is expressed as a fact.
Formosa wrote: Ok so again we are taking the extremely unreliable opinion of the eldar who consider themselves the apex of any species that has ever existed and treating it as absolute truth, while at the same time dismissing the same kind of information from the DAOT humans as "opinion"
You guys get that both races considered themselves the apex right?
As for Eldar tech, as stated before, if your going to assert that the eldar had better tech than DAOT humans, your moving into conjecture territory as there is zero evidence of this at all, and plenty on the contrary to show that human tech was on par but different, divergent due to being different races.
And the poor excuse that Eldar lost it all within a couple of decades of the fall is just that, a poor excuse, yes they likely lost some tech but its very convenient to claim that "nuh uh, they lost all the super tech we have never seen or heard of ever"
Its nonsense, current eldar tech is likely the same as Eldar empire tech but with divergences due to time (40k) and culture, and given that Dark Eldar still have some of that old tech.
So I say again, you will be hard pressed to convince me that current eldar tech is much different to old eldar empire tech in terms of vessels and weaponry with little to no evidence existing, if you guys want to engage in conjecture, sure lets do that.
One thing is expressed as a fact and the other is an in-universe opinion.
It's not really a poor excuse to claim they lost most of their technology. Exodites intentionally abandoned almost all technology, Commorites lost their psychic abilities so their pre Fall technology is basically a bunch of pretty sculptures, Harlequins are a bunch of priests who didn't exactly hoard technology and Craftworlders live on kitted out cargo ships. None of them are exactly going to have a supply of high tech military equipment. It's equally hard to believe that people who rebuilt their technology almost completely, refugees and clown priests are carrying the same technology as a galactic empire that could turn a planet into a palace for lols or build entire cities in another dimension.
One thing is expressed as a fact and the other is an in-universe opinion.
It's not really a poor excuse to claim they lost most of their technology. Exodites intentionally abandoned almost all technology, Commorites lost their psychic abilities so their pre Fall technology is basically a bunch of pretty sculptures, Harlequins are a bunch of priests who didn't exactly hoard technology and Craftworlders live on kitted out cargo ships. None of them are exactly going to have a supply of high tech military equipment. It's equally hard to believe that people who rebuilt their technology almost completely, refugees and clown priests are carrying the same technology as a galactic empire that could turn a planet into a palace for lols or build entire cities in another dimension.
It's also shown in First Heretic that the Fall destroyed the basis of the Eldar tech. Their city were turned instantenously into ruins as the psychic powerfield and materials they were made off were destroyed by the psychic scream of Slaanesh. It's also been mentionned that Jain Zar weapons were rescued from the Fall and one of the few weapons from the ancient Eldar Empire. These weapons are superior to those of modern Banshees.
Insectum7 wrote: I see no quotes Formosa. You've said DAoT are "undisputed masters", but not actually backed that up with any quotation.
Thats because I am being very lazy and cant be bothered to grab the rulebook and find the exact page, but its in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th main rulebooks IIRC, not sure its in the 7th one, will have to check.
Anywho, here are some quotes none the less.
"Perfection of the Standard Template Construct (STC) system permitted an explosion of colonisation that reached the furthest limits of the galaxy. This was the zenith of technological development and knowledge-sharing, for even the most far-flung colony had access to the entire inventory of human invention.
Humanity encountered several intelligent alien races during their expansion out into the galaxy, such as the Eldar and the warlike Orks. With these discoveries began, in time, the first human-xenos wars. With Mankind at the height of its power, the threat of aliens was viewed as trivial and eventually non-aggression pacts were signed between Terra, its colonies and many of the alien races.
For the rest of the age, Mankind spread across the stars, becoming widely dispersed and divergent. Evidence exists of many wars, but none that threatened the stability of human space. Amongst the surviving records are lists of xenos enemies that have long since gone extinct, along with more familiar names such as Aeldari and Orks."
So the books say the Eldar were the unrivaled masters of the universe, that nothing could challenge them.
And books say Mankind met Eldar and other xenos, signed treaties, and was involved in wars. But none of the wars threatened stability of human space.
Those don't conflict at all - combined, it's clear that the DAoT Mankind didn't challenge the Eldar. And there was probably no large war between DAoT and Eldar (but we don't know that for sure, as such a war wouldn't necessarily threaten human space or challenge the Eldar).
"But even that wasn’t fast enough to catch a ship as nimble as one built by the bonesingers of Biel-Tan and guided by the prescient sight of a farseer. The pulse of dark energy coalesced a hundred kilometres off the vessel’s stern and a miniature black hole exploded into life, dragging in everything within its reach with howling force. Stellar matter, light and gravity were crushed as they were drawn in and destroyed, and even the Starblade’s speed and manoeuvrability weren’t enough to save it completely as the secondary effect of the weapon’s deadly energies brushed over its solar sail. Chrono-weaponry shifted its target a nanosecond into the past, by which time the subatomic reactions within every molecule had shifted microscopically and forced identical neutrons into the same quantum space."
So given that Eldar still use the exact same ships, weapons and tech in the heresy mere decades after the fall (Ref: fulgrim) your all gonna be hard pressed to convince me that Eldar out teched DAOT humans by such a large scale that war would be totally one sided, especially considering the above quote having a 40k Ark mechanicus vessel using DAOT weapons to easily smash eldar ships, now if we are gonna talk about possible Eldar weapons surpassing what we have seen them use, well then we are again moving into conjecture territory.
The passage literally states that it was built by the bonesingeres of Biel-Tan, not the Eldar Empire. Right in the quote.
And this event has been argued to death - that Ark Mechanicus heavily outclassed the Eldar vessel, and the capabilities took them by surprise. Even then, it's primary weapons only compromised some systems. It would be like being surprised if a 1400s ship of the line could dent a modern PT boat yacht or tugboat, provided it got the alpha.
Remember, this is an empire that cut it's teeth against a foe with weaponry like the Stellar Observatory (point-and-click remote system destruction from across the galaxy).
Insectum7 wrote: The quote does not explicity say that Eldar and humans fought a war, and certainly not an existential one.
The quote that humans considered the alien threat to be trivial is explicitly from a human bias. The quotes from the Eldar books and BRBs are not stated as the "view" of the Eldar. It's simply stated.
So if we're going to talk biases, let's consider the amount of information, the viewpoint that is given (if any) and the consistency of said information.
We could have fun with it, but we'd also have to stop making assertions like "this has just as much evidence supporting it as your "eldar are No1 wooooooooooo!" when I've posted real evidence.
My opinion of the matter is that the Eldar were on the top of the food chain (because it's stated outright in several places), and that they just didn't care much about the other races on a societal level. I bet there were numerous times Eldar fought with humans, traded with humans, waged war with humans as allies, etc. but that overall the majority of the Eldar were busy "doing Eldar things" and just couldn't be bothered. From humanity's perspective I'd think they knew the Eldar were out there, but just didn't have a complete picture of the Eldar strength for whatever reasons. I'm sure there were humans who felt "unrivaled" even if it wasn't the case, simply because the Eldar didn't care to "rival" them.
Exactly this. They're like the Vorlons in Babylon 5. Sure they could go smash up some of the other races, but it would be expensive, time consuming, and embarrassing if they lost anything at all, so why bother? Unless the Humans got in the Eldar faces (Which they were likely smart enough to not do, given they were the apex of humanity), there'd be little reason for Eldar or Humans to fight over anything. And after a while humanity really started to kick it into high tech gear (likely due to their AI tech and men of iron), and then suddenly everything fell apart for them, right before the warp started to become un-navigable.
The eldar were unchallenged for a very long time. The war in heaven was 60 million years ago and the eldar emerged as the only power in the universe after the necrons went int hybernation.
The setting of 40k is not built around the manifest destiny of humanity being the bestest ever race, it's a cycle of renewal and decay. It happened 60 million years ago, it happened 10,000 years ago. It's happening now in the dark imperium.
The DAoT humanity was to the eldar empire as the Tau are to the Imperium. An energetically expanding species creating new technology very quickly.
The DAoT were very advanced, that is not in doubt. But they were very advanced in the context of human technology. The 41st millennium is a baroque mirror on DAoT tech - the tech of 40k comes from the DAoT - the STC is a DAoT artefact. It's all just in a state of decay.
The eldar empire on the other hand had millions of years to come to supremecy. The webway gave them access to the entire galaxy, their long lives gave them plenty of time to master everything they set their mind to. The eldar empire trapped stars in the webway to power their cities.
Their automata armies were capable of holding the galaxy's orks at bay for thousands or millions of years. In many ways, humanity was only able to expand at all because of the protective shadow created by the eldar empire. In EXACTLY the same way the the Imperium's shadow has given the Tau the chance to expand.
No matter how you describe an empire in space, it's still a giant swiss cheese. Nothing is locked down. You can easily have a dozen empires overlapping each other because space is so incredibly large. Empires are also concentrated on star systems, which volumetrically make up very little of the space in the galaxy. It's like a bunch of connect the dots pictures overlaying each other in 3d space, where each dot is connected only by who owns it and nothing else.
I've attached screen shots of descriptions of where the proto maiden worlds settled by the exodites were in relation to the eldar empire, the dominancy of the eldar empire and a map showing where some of these current exodite worlds are.
TLDR
The maiden worlds are along the outer most reaches of the eldar empire, the exodites populated many of these in their exodus and most of these are along the absolute southern and eastern edges of the galaxy.
Therefore the eldar empire spread out across the entire galaxy.
Depends on if the Fall was their hedonism or Slanesh. If they never descended into hedonism, they'd still be an extremely violent culture, just not one based on colonialism/expansion. If they descended into hedonism and simply didn't explode, they'd be an extremely violent culture always looking for ways to be even more sadistic.
The Eldar people are more naturally like the Dark City than any Craftworld. Not as bad as the Dark City, but still not what you'd call "good" or peaceful.
I now have a mental image of Khaine himself (not an Avatar) walking upon a world Nids are feeding on, crushing the crust and even mantle under his feet, swatting massive bugs like flies. Cutting entire hive fleet tendrils with his sword.
Thank you, Elian. A number of amazing visuals are painted in my mind due to your words.
And the world is charred and warped into tectonic instability.
The Nids are repulsed. But all the crop fields have burned. All the forests are ash. Half the cities are buried in lava from newborn volcanos. The other half are continually ravaged by earthquakes ripping them apart.
What little life survives the battle starves in a hellish wasteland that provides no shelter, no food, no respite.
Bharring wrote: Depends on if the Fall was their hedonism or Slanesh. If they never descended into hedonism, they'd still be an extremely violent culture, just not one based on colonialism/expansion. If they descended into hedonism and simply didn't explode, they'd be an extremely violent culture always looking for ways to be even more sadistic.
The Eldar people are more naturally like the Dark City than any Craftworld. Not as bad as the Dark City, but still not what you'd call "good" or peaceful.
You'd have to define at what point in their history the new timeline extends from, because it changes their attitudes dramatically.
Before the slide into hedonism, the dark city didn't exist as it later did. They had webway ports, but not as dens of iniquity.
If you stopped say at 5,000 AD, ~15,000 years before they began sliding into excess, you'd have a vibrant culture at the pinnacle of its power. A post-scarcity society that has learned everything there is to learn, can do anything they want and has the technological might to push anyone away from them so they can live in peace.
In my head, I see the Eldar empire spread thinly across the galaxy, each planet encircled by psychic automata armies acting as impenetrable city walls against external aggression. Imagine armies of nothing but wraithlord/knights and revenant/phantom titans piloted by psychic AI constructs that just walk across planets and raze them to the bedrock. No ork spore would survive. Especially if they were using the planet stripping technologies like those found in the modern void spinner: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Void_Spinner
Metaphorically similar to the gigantic walls surrounding humanity in Attack on Titan (those walls even had a religion built around them because they protected humanity so well... up until the story starts...).
With unlimited time and warp energy, the eldar psychic engines that ran their civilisation were effectively perpetual motion machines. Psychic engines continually growing new wraithbone armies from warp energy replacing any losses, so that no enemy could ever hope to overcome them. The orks in 40k are a galactic wide menace that threatens any planet. During the eldar empire they were vermin that were exterminated and kept contained in areas so the eldar could live their lives of decadent luxury with no care at all.
If I were writing an alternate reality 40k where the eldar empire never fell, I would need to find something that kept their minds from slipping to decadence. The problem was that the eldar mind was kind of designed to make this inevitable without some very specific and deliberate cultural changes put in place.
The only reason the current Path system works is because the alternative is Slannesh eats your soul. The Path system is sustained by a massive existential threat to existence.
It would be very hard to convince 5,000AD eldar to follow a path system without a Slannesh stick hanging over them - they would have far too many other choices to keep themselves entertained.
Any good story has some kind of conflict in it, so a hypothetical 31st millennium with eldar ascendant should have some too.
My thought is that the eldar empire would begin to have internal discord rather than collective decay. Just as splinter communities appear in our societies, they would appear within eldar societies. And with the ability to remake planets however the wished, they could easily go off and build their own little weird society without anyone else noticing.
So I can see exodites creating a chunk of the galaxy as their realm, kind of Amishtown where other eldar would visit for a holiday.
I can see thrill seekers joining the Eternal Wall for fun - so you get a combo dark eldar/aspect warrior type personalities who have decided killing is great so they decide to create floating war fleets that travel to different battle arenas to sample the types of violence they can experience. The mastery of psychic engineering would mean actual casualties would be pretty small. This isn't dissimilar to the Spyrer gangers in necromunda - nobles coming to slum it and murder poor people for fun.
I think with this as a background you have space for the human worlds to try and unite and push into ork territory - the only territory they would have any chance of claiming.
So this alternate reality would have the following:
Calmer warp, easier travel
Less powerful chaos gods
More powerful eldar gods
A splintered society but ascendant technological eldar empire
Quarrantined ork zones that the eldar use automata to keep at bay
Human settled planets dispersed throughout the galaxy, usually on planets the eldar have no interest in
Humans moving around the eldar, avoiding them as much as possible and only fighting with orks to gain territory (the size of the galaxy is so vast that deliberate conflict would be difficult anyway)
The emperor would either not exist as the eldar gods kill him, or he would not be as xenophobic. His plans only worked originally because he was sweeping into the power vacuum left by the eldar. He never attempted to directly try and overthrow the eldar, because that would be very difficult
Only when the necrons start waking up and the tyranids begin arriving would the eldar empire begin to fracture
Correct me if I'm wrong (not as knowledgeable about eldar as I could be) but I always got the impression that even at the height of their power they were not nearly as numerous as they otherwise could have been for various biological and cultural reasons.
That really came back to bite them when most of them died instantly over night but assuming that didn't happen I would guess humanity would be like the Tau, something that could put up a fight but would loss if the eldar really put effort into the fight.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (not as knowledgeable about eldar as I could be) but I always got the impression that even at the height of their power they were not nearly as numerous as they otherwise could have been for various biological and cultural reasons.
That really came back to bite them when most of them died instantly over night but assuming that didn't happen I would guess humanity would be like the Tau, something that could put up a fight but would loss if the eldar really put effort into the fight.
One of the screen captures I put up above says that trillions died.
Before the fall, the Eldar had no constraints on their reproduction
Bharring wrote: Depends on if the Fall was their hedonism or Slanesh. If they never descended into hedonism, they'd still be an extremely violent culture, just not one based on colonialism/expansion. If they descended into hedonism and simply didn't explode, they'd be an extremely violent culture always looking for ways to be even more sadistic.
The Eldar people are more naturally like the Dark City than any Craftworld. Not as bad as the Dark City, but still not what you'd call "good" or peaceful.
You'd have to define at what point in their history the new timeline extends from, because it changes their attitudes dramatically.
Before the slide into hedonism, the dark city didn't exist as it later did. They had webway ports, but not as dens of iniquity.
If you stopped say at 5,000 AD, ~15,000 years before they began sliding into excess, you'd have a vibrant culture at the pinnacle of its power. A post-scarcity society that has learned everything there is to learn, can do anything they want and has the technological might to push anyone away from them so they can live in peace.
In my head, I see the Eldar empire spread thinly across the galaxy, each planet encircled by psychic automata armies acting as impenetrable city walls against external aggression. Imagine armies of nothing but wraithlord/knights and revenant/phantom titans piloted by psychic AI constructs that just walk across planets and raze them to the bedrock. No ork spore would survive. Especially if they were using the planet stripping technologies like those found in the modern void spinner: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Void_Spinner
Metaphorically similar to the gigantic walls surrounding humanity in Attack on Titan (those walls even had a religion built around them because they protected humanity so well... up until the story starts...).
With unlimited time and warp energy, the eldar psychic engines that ran their civilisation were effectively perpetual motion machines. Psychic engines continually growing new wraithbone armies from warp energy replacing any losses, so that no enemy could ever hope to overcome them. The orks in 40k are a galactic wide menace that threatens any planet. During the eldar empire they were vermin that were exterminated and kept contained in areas so the eldar could live their lives of decadent luxury with no care at all.
If I were writing an alternate reality 40k where the eldar empire never fell, I would need to find something that kept their minds from slipping to decadence. The problem was that the eldar mind was kind of designed to make this inevitable without some very specific and deliberate cultural changes put in place.
The only reason the current Path system works is because the alternative is Slannesh eats your soul. The Path system is sustained by a massive existential threat to existence.
It would be very hard to convince 5,000AD eldar to follow a path system without a Slannesh stick hanging over them - they would have far too many other choices to keep themselves entertained.
Any good story has some kind of conflict in it, so a hypothetical 31st millennium with eldar ascendant should have some too.
My thought is that the eldar empire would begin to have internal discord rather than collective decay. Just as splinter communities appear in our societies, they would appear within eldar societies. And with the ability to remake planets however the wished, they could easily go off and build their own little weird society without anyone else noticing.
So I can see exodites creating a chunk of the galaxy as their realm, kind of Amishtown where other eldar would visit for a holiday.
I can see thrill seekers joining the Eternal Wall for fun - so you get a combo dark eldar/aspect warrior type personalities who have decided killing is great so they decide to create floating war fleets that travel to different battle arenas to sample the types of violence they can experience. The mastery of psychic engineering would mean actual casualties would be pretty small. This isn't dissimilar to the Spyrer gangers in necromunda - nobles coming to slum it and murder poor people for fun.
I think with this as a background you have space for the human worlds to try and unite and push into ork territory - the only territory they would have any chance of claiming.
So this alternate reality would have the following:
Calmer warp, easier travel
Less powerful chaos gods
More powerful eldar gods
A splintered society but ascendant technological eldar empire
Quarrantined ork zones that the eldar use automata to keep at bay
Human settled planets dispersed throughout the galaxy, usually on planets the eldar have no interest in
Humans moving around the eldar, avoiding them as much as possible and only fighting with orks to gain territory (the size of the galaxy is so vast that deliberate conflict would be difficult anyway)
The emperor would either not exist as the eldar gods kill him, or he would not be as xenophobic. His plans only worked originally because he was sweeping into the power vacuum left by the eldar. He never attempted to directly try and overthrow the eldar, because that would be very difficult
Only when the necrons start waking up and the tyranids begin arriving would the eldar empire begin to fracture
I agree with a preatty good chunk there chief.
But i don't think that Nyds pose a threat to a full powerful Eldar empire.
Necrons on the other hand.. that battle would be awesome!
HoundsofDemos wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (not as knowledgeable about eldar as I could be) but I always got the impression that even at the height of their power they were not nearly as numerous as they otherwise could have been for various biological and cultural reasons.
That really came back to bite them when most of them died instantly over night but assuming that didn't happen I would guess humanity would be like the Tau, something that could put up a fight but would loss if the eldar really put effort into the fight.
Also, T'au put up a fight because (1) they have better tech than the Imperium, on average, and (2) the Imperium is too busy with other existential threats to bring enough force to challenge the T'au.
In this scenario, Mankind's tech - even DAoT tech - would be primitive relative to the Eldar, the Eldar have no existential threats, and it would take only a couple machines tasked with destroying humanity (those machines would then build armies, etc).
The other big difference is the nature. Eldar pre-fall aren't known for eradicated species. They're known for "putting them in their place", pruning them back. So the Eldar would likely not eradicate Mankind - maybe not even if Mankind launched full-scale war against them. The Imperium, on the other hand, would eradicate the T'au if it could. And the Eldar. And any other non-human, sub-human, or even nonalegiant-human they could.
In my opinion, if 40K fluff had ignored the Eldar Fall, and brought the Eldar Empire into contact with humanity, the Eldar still would have lost that conflict. And I say this with love, as an Eldar player.
40K draws a lot of inspiration from history, and I think that if you had an intact Eldar Empire at the time of the great crusades, the fluff writters would have presented the situation similar to Carthage and the Punic wars. With the Eldar playing the role of Carthage, and the Imperium playing the role of Rome. Carthage was, afterall, one of the great states of antiquity, arguably surpassing Athens as a Mediterranean power. The first two Punic wars were bloody close affairs until Carthage eventually fell to Rome in the third.
Carthage also has great potential to draw inspirational stories for the 40K universe. Like an Eldar Autarch inspired by Hannibal, who leads an Eldar army into the Sol System, and defeats several imperial armies there, but is forced to withdraw before he can take Terra due to a lack of support from the Eldar aristocracy... sound familiar? I think a brilliant, yet tragic figure like Hannibal is a natural fit for the Eldar.
The current setting of the 40K universe requires an absence of Eldar power to create the grim dark feel. I do think it would be more interesting fluffwise if it had come by the hand of the Imperium and the Emperor however, as well as adding to the irony that the one ally with potentially enough power to help the Imperium stand up to the horrors facing them was shattered by the Imperium's own hand.
