With the new contract paint being a gorksend to those in the hobby who have more models then paint skillz(including me), then many of us will start to have fully painted armies ready for the new apocalypse.
The big take always from this are these to snidbits.
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"Damage is resolved at the end of the turn – so if you’ve been waiting for weeks to use that Reaver Titan, your enemy won’t get to shoot it off the table before it has a chance to retaliate!"
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This is amazing for those tired of alpha strikes and getting kromped in melee before they had a chance to swing a power fist. I was planning an apocalypse event before this news and I was planning to have this rule in it. Great minds think alike.
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"All the rules you need to play the game are in the box, and the rules for your army will be available to download free at launch"
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This is the biggest part about the reveal I'm most excited about. When they first announced apocalypse I thought "they better have points changes for all factions, especially the stompa, or else this game will be infantry heavy". This doesn't seem To be "8th edition with additional rules" but more like "a completely new game"(probably with rules still inspired by 8th). New rules for all armies, and that includes fw (gw forcing fw to make rules for their existing 40k models is about the only way fw does anything 40k related these days). We might see lord of wars balanced (as balanced as we can expect from gw, switch isnt much, but it will be interesting to play it and find out how they balanced it).
So what do you think? Are you excited? What is some of your theories on what they are doing with this new game? I personally cant wait, as this is reinvigorating me into the hobby as I'll by contrast paint to get ready for some very epic and fast apocalypse battles!
GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?
I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.
Lance845 wrote: GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?
I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.
Size of game is a matter of preference but I totally agree with you about FW.
It is in fact counter productive to and cost them money to not include the rules for FW products in their codexes. A lot of a people don't even know they exist. How would they buy then? It's also just common sense. Only 1 party should be writing the rules.
However I am excited about apoc rules - I play a lot of Apoc
Im also hoping it can replace rules in standard 2000pts games. Hell who knows? Maybe it will even be better at skirmish level than 40k wich would be hilarious.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Notice that it comes with a field manual, wich looks like a sleek portable rulebook (seen in the promo vid). Not the huge tomes we currentle contend our backs with...
Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
Im really not a fan of having seperate rules for Apoc (yes i get it shooting last and all that jazz, but seriously put that stuff in the beta rules), i play the same models in 40k non-apoc yet when apoc they play differently? Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.
New rules = balance...i think not, bloodthirsters are still gonna suck balls and marines are still gonna die in droves.
I think the new rules is gonna streamline the crap out of our models, so we can play fast and loose with a metricton of models in a couple of hours... Thats not apoc to me, and never will be.
I am however gonna rework Apoc 2013 edition for 8th instead.
I'll clarify what I meant by "balance". We want experience codex creep since all faction rules are coming at the same time.
I believe this is objectively better then trying to upgrade 8th as it currently is to apoc, current 40k is highly unbalanced due to codex creep (this is true for all of the history of gw), we have a higher chance for balance when they do them all at the same time, but I don't expect perfect balance.
And as far as quicker games, personally I dont have the time to play multi day apoc games, and rarely does anyone i play, so I'm excited for faster rules.
Has any edition of Apoc been good? More than 2 players a side you only get to turn 2-3 after 12+ hours. If you want MASSED battles in the grim dark, bring back Epic.
Brutallica wrote: Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
/snip
8th edition is better for CC oriented armies than 6th and 7th combined. Full stop.
FeindusMaximus wrote: Has any edition of Apoc been good? More than 2 players a side you only get to turn 2-3 after 12+ hours. If you want MASSED battles in the grim dark, bring back Epic.
I've enjoyed every Apoc game I've played since I started. Yes, you might need two full days to play it out fully but I've always found the mass slaughter of the first few turns with the down to the last few models fighting to the last.
That said, the best ones I had involved a carefully crafted narrative with everyone having a roughly the same amount of super heavies.
Brutallica wrote: Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
8th Edition is really great for close quarters combat. Like, CQC is the strongest I remember it being in a long time, and is probably the most important phase of the game right now.
Brutallica wrote: Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
/snip
8th edition is better for CC oriented armies than 6th and 7th combined. Full stop.
Well I'm excited to see how it goes. Apoc always seemed to be less of a competitive game and more narrative in nature since the premise has been that we take the armies we have grown over the years and get to see it all on the board.
Of course good balance helps in having fun games. The very concept of "wounds applied at end of round" works so well toward equaling the playing field between who goes 1st or 2nd that I'm surprised this hasn't been added to every game system ever.
slave.entity wrote: Historically, what kinds of rules does Apoc add to the game? I've always been curious about this.
In 4e and 5e superheavies and Flyers were Apocalypse-only; both got added to normal-size games in 6e.
The other things Apocalypse did were Strategic Assets, which were basically a proto-version of Stratagems (you got one that you could use once per game by default, you could get more based on how you built your list, and some cost Victory Points to use), and Apocalypse Formations, which let you take a specific mix of units and pay an extra cost to get some buffs to the units and/or extra Strategic Assets.
7e Apocalypse added apocalypse-level Warlord Traits complete with a 1/game Finest Hour ability where your Warlord got some super-charged version of their Warlord Trait for a turn.
I don't have an old Apoc book in front of me right now, but some sample Apocalypse Formations off the top of my head:
-Lost and the Damned: Dark Apostle, 6+ Cultist units. All units in the formation deploy by Infiltrate. One destroyed Cultist unit is returned to play after each scheduled break. All Cultists gain Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.
-Ravager Titan-Hunters: 3-5 Ravagers. Vehicles in the formation within 6" of the command vehicle gain Shrouded. The command vehicle may fire off a shadow beam that turns off void shields, power fields, or Titan holofields.
-Wraithknight Dreamwalker Squadron: 3-5 Wraithknights. All Wraithknights in the formation gain +1 to movement, charge distance, WS, and BS per model in the formation on the table.
-Infinite Phalanx: 10+ units of Necron Warriors. All combine into one giant mega-unit, which passes Reanimation Protocols on 4+ if there are 100+ models in the unit, or on 3+ if there are 150+ models in the unit.
-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.
Looks like they will have strategic assets for this game with cards for all armies in the box set. The box set seems to not have the new movement trays in it so it might be a fairly reasonable priced box (as compared to the cities of death box).
Also,the announcement video shows players using token (probably a way to keep track of wound and unit losses), and also rolling d12 (the rare instance of a 40k game using something besides a d6.
If d12 are used we might see quite the mixup of the rules if they are relied on For units. Maybe they are for rolling damage and wounds for the massive titans.
As far as forcing fw to make rules I'm ok with this. Fw rarely cares for their 40k models, preferring to focus o 30k. Sure, would be nice for gw to make the rules for them 8nstead, but the companies are separate enough that this is unreasonable (is he supposed to sell books on their own site for models available on another site?).
In 4e and 5e superheavies and Flyers were Apocalypse-only; both got added to normal-size games in 6e.
The other things Apocalypse did were Strategic Assets, which were basically a proto-version of Stratagems (you got one that you could use once per game by default, you could get more based on how you built your list, and some cost Victory Points to use), and Apocalypse Formations, which let you take a specific mix of units and pay an extra cost to get some buffs to the units and/or extra Strategic Assets.
7e Apocalypse added apocalypse-level Warlord Traits complete with a 1/game Finest Hour ability where your Warlord got some super-charged version of their Warlord Trait for a turn.
I don't have an old Apoc book in front of me right now, but some sample Apocalypse Formations off the top of my head:
-Lost and the Damned: Dark Apostle, 6+ Cultist units. All units in the formation deploy by Infiltrate. One destroyed Cultist unit is returned to play after each scheduled break. All Cultists gain Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.
-Ravager Titan-Hunters: 3-5 Ravagers. Vehicles in the formation within 6" of the command vehicle gain Shrouded. The command vehicle may fire off a shadow beam that turns off void shields, power fields, or Titan holofields.
-Wraithknight Dreamwalker Squadron: 3-5 Wraithknights. All Wraithknights in the formation gain +1 to movement, charge distance, WS, and BS per model in the formation on the table.
-Infinite Phalanx: 10+ units of Necron Warriors. All combine into one giant mega-unit, which passes Reanimation Protocols on 4+ if there are 100+ models in the unit, or on 3+ if there are 150+ models in the unit.
-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.
Interesting. So extra traits for extra large formations. And new stratagems to go along with it.
How about the missions? Should we expect to see major tweaks to turn sequencing and scoring?
Honestly if the rules play well, and can be scaled down to at least as low as 1500 i could see it wiping 40k out for good here as a game on its own :O
So a bit excited, but reserved.
Even though there aren't any superheavies in our gaming group apocalypse was the most interesting preview for me. I find 2000point games in 40K pretty long already, everything more seems tiresome because of the turnstructure.
But, I'd like to field my 20 Terminators and 70 Plague Marines and I hope apocalypse works for that as well.
geargutz wrote: With the new contract paint being a gorksend to those in the hobby who have more models then paint skillz(including me), then many of us will start to have fully painted armies ready for the new apocalypse.
The big take always from this are these to snidbits.
----
"Damage is resolved at the end of the turn – so if you’ve been waiting for weeks to use that Reaver Titan, your enemy won’t get to shoot it off the table before it has a chance to retaliate!"
This was how damage resolution worked in Battletech, and was something I'd always hoped they'd bring into 40k that would do a lot to take the edge off turn 1 alpha striking, and is practically mandatory for Apoc games.
This is the biggest part about the reveal I'm most excited about. When they first announced apocalypse I thought "they better have points changes for all factions, especially the stompa, or else this game will be infantry heavy". This doesn't seem To be "8th edition with additional rules" but more like "a completely new game"(probably with rules still inspired by 8th). New rules for all armies, and that includes fw (gw forcing fw to make rules for their existing 40k models is about the only way fw does anything 40k related these days). We might see lord of wars balanced (as balanced as we can expect from gw, switch isnt much, but it will be interesting to play it and find out how they balanced it).
So what do you think? Are you excited? What is some of your theories on what they are doing with this new game? I personally cant wait, as this is reinvigorating me into the hobby as I'll by contrast paint to get ready for some very epic and fast apocalypse battles!
The fact that they appear to be rebalancing everything around the larger scale is definitely encouraging.
slave.entity wrote: ...How about the missions? Should we expect to see major tweaks to turn sequencing and scoring?
The wacky thing 7e Apocalypse did on scoring was a weird hybrid of progressive and end-of-game scoring where objectives were worth points equal to the turn number at the end of the game turn.
Brutallica wrote: Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
/snip
8th edition is better for CC oriented armies than 6th and 7th combined. Full stop.
True, but it demonstrates the GW stayed true to their promise.. Which is contrary to what the person I quoted is saying.
Unless you played Grey Knights in 6th, or ran the invisible-drogo-superfriends-Imperium-murderball in 7th, melee is stronger than it's been in a long time. And even if you did one of those things, it's absolutely more balanced than it's been in ages.
CC is probably the best it's been since 4th edition. It's not strong to the point of massively harming shooty armies (3rd), and it's also not extremely abusive in implementation (over-run & fearless shenanigans of 4th). Despite that it's damn strong, both hordes & elite CC elements are viable, plenty of lists feature successful CC elements, and entirely combat oriented armies are not auto lose (or auto win), which is the best place they've been in.. a solid 4+ years.
True, but it demonstrates the GW stayed true to their promise.. Which is contrary to what the person I quoted is saying.
Unless you played Grey Knights in 6th, or ran the invisible-drogo-superfriends-Imperium-murderball in 7th, melee is stronger than it's been in a long time. And even if you did one of those things, it's absolutely more balanced than it's been in ages.
CC is probably the best it's been since 4th edition. It's not strong to the point of massively harming shooty armies (3rd), and it's also not extremely abusive in implementation (over-run & fearless shenanigans of 4th). Despite that it's damn strong, both hordes & elite CC elements are viable, plenty of lists feature successful CC elements, and entirely combat oriented armies are not auto lose (or auto win), which is the best place they've been in.. a solid 4+ years.
A compelling argument. Numerous functional examples. Bravo. Despite that, I think you gave me the perfect to your own position:
Nope.
Fullstop is not an argument either, stop playing double standards crap when it fits your narrative. I know how my world eaters/kdk and Space Wolves did in 7th and in 8th. My space wolves melee based list killed a riptide wing castle list, that would NEVER happen today. Anywho, im not here to debate if 8th is more melee or not. I know my experience, and other people who feel the same, others might feel different, well good on them.
-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.
So GW hating grey knights is not just a 8th ed thing, interesting.
CC is probably the best it's been since 4th edition. It's not strong to the point of massively harming shooty armies (3rd), and it's also not extremely abusive in implementation (over-run & fearless shenanigans of 4th). Despite that it's damn strong, both hordes & elite CC elements are viable, plenty of lists feature successful CC elements, and entirely combat oriented armies are not auto lose (or auto win), which is the best place they've been in.. a solid 4+ years.
I don't know what was good before 8th, but in 8th good melee units are, those that very much break the normal melee rules. It is either fighting twice s spears, custodes and smash captins for imperials, or horde. Although horde is valid more because horde is in general better then most things in the game. But again I don't know how the game felt like before 8th, there is a big chance that melee was worse. But that would mean that the game was really really bad, and not is just bad.
Problem with Apoc historically was D weapons- an attempt to speed up the game by just pulling models off the table. This was no fun for the player on the receiving end and effectively treated marines the same as grots.
If they revise the game so there are no armour saves for infantry, just opposing rolls(S/T), this might be good. This would have the effect of reducing player involvement, unless they have alternating activation.
D-weapons were always an issue, and while I've always loved Apoc battles in the past, the huge points increases that FW arbitrarily gave the Titans just makes them unfeasible thanks to the removal of blasts.
I'm quickly coming to the point where I could host a 10k Apoc game using my own models alone on both sides of the table, so a new Apoc ruleset might make things more spicy. I will watch its career with great interest.
Let's try to drop the whole "is melee viable right now" argument. I love discussion but let's try to keep it on topic.
Like how melee will work In apoc. I think it could be like the aos version of apoc where once any model in a unit makes the charge into another unit then all models are now in combat and you dont have to worry about endless pile In shinadigans.
Of course they could pair this with movement trays In some way to help encourage the sales of movement trays (this could be a pain if they are unreasonably costly....very likely considering this is gw we are talking about).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
topaxygouroun i wrote: I'm quickly coming to the point where I could host a 10k Apoc game using my own models alone on both sides of the table, so a new Apoc ruleset might make things more spicy. I will watch its career with great interest.
I know right! As of now I've been slowly collecting other armies besides my orks but I've been dragging my feet with playing them because I didn't want to deal with buying books and strat cards just to play them, but free rules for all armies has got me excited to get working on them again and have a beefy force of tau and their guevesa auxiliaries!
So what do you think? Are you excited? What is some of your theories on what they are doing with this new game? I personally cant wait, as this is reinvigorating me into the hobby as I'll by contrast paint to get ready for some very epic and fast apocalypse battles!
Sounds nice. Too bad I'm short of sufficiently big table for apoc size game to be making sense. 10'x6' would be tiny.
I think the new rules is gonna streamline the crap out of our models, so we can play fast and loose with a metricton of models in a couple of hours... Thats not apoc to me, and never will be.
For proper apoc game it CANNOT just be 40k but more models. That does not lead to generals thinking big pictures but just big giant mess decided by who gets first turn.
Skirmish games have skirmish level issues to think. Company company sized. Battallion battallion sized. When you are at battallion level battles positions and armaments of individual models shouldn't be on mind. If they are you aren't playing big epic battle but just rolling dice.
Skirmish games have skirmish level issues to think. Company company sized. Battallion battallion sized. When you are at battallion level battles positions and armaments of individual models shouldn't be on mind. If they are you aren't playing big epic battle but just rolling dice.
Yeah, you want some advance rules and detailed troop movement, then gw has both necromunda and killteam.
Advanced rules do not scale well. If they just add rules to 8th then se will have bogged down games (despite 8th being the most streamlined we have had it). They want these games to be possible in an evening, if they want that then they will need to streamline it more.
If you want complicated games with details in every movement and tactic then apoc might not be for you. 8th will be the in between of both philosophies.
Heck, from what I hear even epic wasnt a fast game system. But I liked the concept of potentially trying to go for more mass armies being handled like epic, but with normal 40k models. Yes the table will have to be bigger, but gw does not have to invest in yet another model range that might not sell as much as the tried and tested basic 40k range.
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And while it would be hilarious that apoc becomes the system everyone uses instead of 8th, I dont really see this happeing.
While technically you dent need a massive army to play apoc (you can play in a teem), but the concept that this is for the players with massive armies will still be a type of barrier to entry. New players have killteam to get into, when they collect enough they can get into the basic 8th system, and only after a while will they get the models to start doing apoc.
It's the last game system in the chain of progressing in the hobby. It will only draw in the more tenured players and those who had the disposable income to buy their apoc armies in one go.
I'm hoping squads will be treated as single models. Put them on a movement tray, and it becomes a single model with a built-in wound counter.
Not moving and measuring for each model in a unit would help a lot. Also, you wouldn't need to have a number of attacks that's a multiple of the number of models, which could lower the number of rolled dice tremendously. A 10-man squad could have 3 decent shots instead of 20 crappy ones.
-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.
So GW hating grey knights is not just a 8th ed thing, interesting.
Read what was written, not what you think was written. Because if you think a formation that hampers daemons is detrimental to GKs then you really do not get anything do you? You see the word "Grey Knights" and go charging into that proverbial windmill without looking at what is written, just knock it off. Apocalypse games were very narrative driven and the above is fully in character for GK. Or have you not read the background for the first Armageddon war for example?
Brutallica wrote: Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
Im really not a fan of having seperate rules for Apoc (yes i get it shooting last and all that jazz, but seriously put that stuff in the beta rules), i play the same models in 40k non-apoc yet when apoc they play differently? Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.
New rules = balance...i think not, bloodthirsters are still gonna suck balls and marines are still gonna die in droves.
I think the new rules is gonna streamline the crap out of our models, so we can play fast and loose with a metricton of models in a couple of hours... Thats not apoc to me, and never will be.
I am however gonna rework Apoc 2013 edition for 8th instead.
I’m gonna laugh if this turns out if the rules just basically become Epic in 28mm scale, which oddly enough is in many case is what is needed at this scale of the game.
Stormonu wrote: I’m gonna laugh if this turns out if the rules just basically become Epic in 28mm scale, which oddly enough is in many case is what is needed at this scale of the game.
I never played epic, but I heard bits and pieces about it. I would be really interested to see that being the case.
If these rules mean a 5-8k per army game can be played in a couple hours then 2k games can be in the hour and half range (hopefully). Just not using the more insane models and such could make for great games of regular 40k. JUUUSST saying.
I'm guessing they are going to simplify the wpns and upgrades of units and single models.
Take the gmorkanaut for example. The thing is loaded with wpns that slow down play to choose targets and roll all those dice. We might see a single melee wpn, a single anti titan wpn, and a single anti infantry wpn. This will help speed things up and easier to remember its porifiles.
I got more than enough chaos units and models to run my own side well in an Apoc game. The problem is that the rules need to be stream lined enough. Alpha strikes in an Apoc game are bad, and also, I don't have the time to spend ten hours on one game. lol Chaff units also need to be dealt with. Imagine wasting the bulk of your time moving around chaff units of infantry, chaos cultists, who are 40 to 50 points a squad... Big conscript units and cultists units are probably not much better. Honestly, maybe they should be disallowed from Apoc games. lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: I got more than enough chaos units and models to run my own side well in an Apoc game. The problem is that the rules need to be stream lined enough. Alpha strikes in an Apoc game are bad, and also, I don't have the time to spend ten hours on one game. lol Chaff units also need to be dealt with. Imagine wasting the bulk of your time moving around chaff units of infantry, chaos cultists, who are 40 to 50 points a squad... Big conscript units and cultists units are probably not much better. Honestly, maybe they should be disallowed from Apoc games. lol
Chaff will be not as bad with the implementation of movement trays. Of course I would agree that I would like for more emphasis on vehicles and monsters in apoc, especialy since the majority of them suck in 8th and its dominated by hordes.
Maybe they will serve a purpose besides being screens against charges. If I understand the void shields of titans can be overloaded in epic with massed infantry fire. Would be cool if they served a similar purpise.
The problem is chaff units suck up so much time. because each model is so cheap. You have tons of models of chaff. And then you spend all your time moving them, shooting them, rolling saves which they will almost surely fail.
Its like moving a bunch of 40 conscripts into rapid fire range of a knight (or titan). First you have to move 40 models, then you have to roll 80 dice to hit, and then another 40 dice to wound... And after all that, maybe you do actually 1 damage that is unsaved. I think people play Apoc for big expensive units rather than to have an even more massive horde...
A 4000 points conscript horde is 1000 models... lol How many titans would you even need to put a dent in that. But seriously, who wants to play a 1000 model conscript army in an Apoc game? lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: The problem is chaff units suck up so much time. because each model is so cheap. You have tons of models of chaff. And then you spend all your time moving them, shooting them, rolling saves which they will almost surely fail.
Its like moving a bunch of 40 conscripts into rapid fire range of a knight (or titan). First you have to move 40 models, then you have to roll 80 dice to hit, and then another 40 dice to wound... And after all that, maybe you do actually 1 damage that is unsaved. I think people play Apoc for big expensive units rather than to have an even more massive horde...
A 4000 points conscript horde is 1000 models... lol How many titans would you even need to put a dent in that. But seriously, who wants to play a 1000 model conscript army in an Apoc game? lol
There are lots of people that would love to see massive army face off against another massive army, rather than just a bunch of big titans stomping around. For a lot of players, that was what Apoc was for around where i was. Russ and landraiders where the big tanks that come to the fight even when ramp up the size.
Balance is also about making sure players can bring units and army like that and not just be a time sink of uselessness.
Formosa wrote: Total waste of time and money, apoc will fail again because 28mm epic does not work.
Out of curiosity when has "28mm epic" been tried before and how did it fail. Nothing comes to my memory, but to be fair my gaming experience only started at the end of 6th.
If anything it seems trying to go back to epid with titanicus is probably going to not pan out, I barely know anyone who plays it, preferring to play with rules sets for their established collections.
Formosa wrote: Total waste of time and money, apoc will fail again because 28mm epic does not work.
Out of curiosity when has "28mm epic" been tried before and how did it fail. Nothing comes to my memory, but to be fair my gaming experience only started at the end of 6th.
If anything it seems trying to go back to epid with titanicus is probably going to not pan out, I barely know anyone who plays it, preferring to play with rules sets for their established collections.
Apoc is basically Epic in 28mm, yes it has different rules but the mass battle large scale system they are trying to shoe horn into 40k several times now has failed miserably every single time, if they really want to do a mass battle system then they need to make a new set of epic rules or just bring back epic, but they are likely sitting on it as they dont want to cannibalise 40k sales.
Apoc is basically Epic in 28mm, yes it has different rules but the mass battle large scale system they are trying to shoe horn into 40k several times now has failed miserably every single time, if they really want to do a mass battle system then they need to make a new set of epic rules or just bring back epic, but they are likely sitting on it as they dont want to cannibalise 40k sales.
Maybe I'm still not getting it.
The models associated with epic sell well enough. Peeps still buy stompas/baneblades and other fw superheavies, helped that they can be played in normal 40k baring of course tournament restrictions.
So at the end of the day apoc is a ruleset. The models already exist and work for other systems and sell on their own without the need of apoc. All they did was spend the Capitol to get the book made. I can even see the one actual bit of plastic from the launch of apoc (the movement trays) being bought for normal 40k games (many an ork player invest in 3rd part trays to help the green tide reach gr heir enemy).
Now making a whole model range around apoc that can only be used for apoc will probably eventually fail (my example of this epic, we definitely dont see that system supported anymore and the system close enough isnt ven the right size and seems to be niche).
So I guess I'm not seeing the "evidence" that this has failed before or will fail again. I expect gw will be experiencing a net positive with the release.
Stormonu wrote: I’m gonna laugh if this turns out if the rules just basically become Epic in 28mm scale, which oddly enough is in many case is what is needed at this scale of the game.
Seeing your formation could zip 105cm+ then scaled up to 28mm...Need pretty big table ;-)
Apoc is basically Epic in 28mm, yes it has different rules but the mass battle large scale system they are trying to shoe horn into 40k several times now has failed miserably every single time, if they really want to do a mass battle system then they need to make a new set of epic rules or just bring back epic, but they are likely sitting on it as they dont want to cannibalise 40k sales.
Maybe I'm still not getting it.
The models associated with epic sell well enough. Peeps still buy stompas/baneblades and other fw superheavies, helped that they can be played in normal 40k baring of course tournament restrictions.
So at the end of the day apoc is a ruleset. The models already exist and work for other systems and sell on their own without the need of apoc. All they did was spend the Capitol to get the book made. I can even see the one actual bit of plastic from the launch of apoc (the movement trays) being bought for normal 40k games (many an ork player invest in 3rd part trays to help the green tide reach gr heir enemy).
Now making a whole model range around apoc that can only be used for apoc will probably eventually fail (my example of this epic, we definitely dont see that system supported anymore and the system close enough isnt ven the right size and seems to be niche).
So I guess I'm not seeing the "evidence" that this has failed before or will fail again. I expect gw will be experiencing a net positive with the release.
Issue is going to be simple practicality. For it to be even close to working as well as epic rules worked you need to have board that's relatively about same size as 6'x4' was for 6mm models. Start counting that. If it's 6'x4' board with 28mm models but epic sized scales...well the epic rules wont' work anymore.
How big board your home can house? And can you say move models in center of 7-10' deep table?
How big board your home can house? And can you say move models in center of 7-10' deep table?
Ok...I'll play at the game store.
How many players have homes with enough room to even play normal 40k games?
Everyone I know plays at the flgs.
And the same has been true for apoc in the past. Heck, since they are designing to to be played quickly then players dont have to worry about it being a multi day afar, instead spending just a single day for a truly massive battle (of course the most epic of apoc are held as their own tourney like events with rented conference rooms).
So I dont see this being much as a barrier to entry.
The problem apoc game really faces is, game to short it’s not really worth the time to set up. Just pulling things out can take time when it’s just a bit bigger than a standard game.
But if it’s too long, it is still unfeasble for huge amount of players. The hope would be the rules lead to fun games, as I think players would be fine if the games where a bit longer but where fun and entertaining to play in a reasonable time.
Rather than the hell it seemed to be so often before.
I think if APOC the trick is to leave complexity on your higher level stuff, and reduce it on the chaff.
For example, a single guard squad is rduced to a single attack and damage roll.. and save. Same with a squad of Intercessors, or Terminators.
But a Land Raider would have more shots, wounds and a save.
A Knight would have even more shots wounds, saves, and rules. And a Titan would have the most complexity.
I think that is Hewey shows up with his THunderhawk, and Dewey with his Asterus, and Louie with his Stompa, the game they play should reward them for those models, while allowing Scrooge who showed up with 300 termigants and 10 Malfactors to also play and have a good game.
Lance845 wrote: GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?
I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.
For the record this is already the case. The Studio is now writing all rules and FW is focusing on Specialist Games and 30k.
Unfortunately this likely means we won't see any more Imperial Armour books.
FeindusMaximus wrote: Has any edition of Apoc been good? More than 2 players a side you only get to turn 2-3 after 12+ hours. If you want MASSED battles in the grim dark, bring back Epic.
I have absolutely loved Apocalypse so - yeah I would say several editions of it have been good. If it is organized well it is a blast.
I did notice that in the community preview that the tokens looked like the ones from Epic - Advance, First Fire, etc. so they may very well be using Epic as the base for the rules (especially if they use movement trays for infantry squads).
Lance845 wrote: GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?
I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.
For the record this is already the case. The Studio is now writing all rules and FW is focusing on Specialist Games and 30k.
Unfortunately this likely means we won't see any more Imperial Armour books.
Maybe? If it is that is post indexes. The IA indexes were written by fw.
Well, whether it's done by gw (crossing my finger for this) or fw, they are going to have rules for them for apoc. The video has the big imperator in it, so expect to see gargantuan squigs trundling infantry and reavers getting tripped by chaos knighrs.
kronk wrote: I had a very active group that incorporated apoc games into our campaigns back in 5th edition. It was fun as feth.
With 8th edition allowing fliers and Superheavies in normal games, I am not sure what the point is. Just play a 5k game.
We’ll see what apoc specific stuff they add.
One of the surprising things about 8th edition is how quickly you can play larger games, including 5k games. I played a one on one, 5k game, and we got the whole thing done in under 8 hours with a lunch break. We made a few concessions for speed (allowing averages of massive dice rolls; not wasting time with fiddly shots), but the engine works really well for large games of "proper," matched play 40k.
I would imagine that the dedicated apoc rules will include some way to more properly integrate infantry, superheavies, and massed vehicles.
One of the surprising things about 8th edition is how quickly you can play larger games, including 5k games. I played a one on one, 5k game, and we got the whole thing done in under 8 hours with a lunch break.
We play 30k with 8th edition rules. ames are usually around 3k or more. Last time we played 5k, it was done in about 3-4h.(well, 3, sicne we stopped then because other side had no chance). First turn I killed 2k from enemy side, basically game was decided on who got 1st turn...system as it is now, is kinda flawed, because 1st turn can literally mean win or loose in big games. But at least it goes quite fast, and seeing lot of models on table is nice.
Brutallica wrote: Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.
Does "another game with another set of rules" actually surprise you? Let's see what's actually active for GW right now (ruleset-wise) for at least 40K and AoS which are all still being supported:
40,000
Kill Team (Vanilla)
Kill Team: Commanders
Kill Team: Arena
Kill Team: Elites
Necromunda: Underhive
Necromunda: Gang Wars
Adeptus Titanicus
Blackstone Fortress
Age of Sigmar
Warhammer Underworlds
Age of Sigmar: Skirmish (not popular, but still around)
Blood Bowl
I think there is a new flyer game coming out for 40K and at least one new big launch of a new game for AoS.
So, does a new game with new rules really surprise you? I guess I could see why it'd upset you. But, it's one of those things where I would have figured most people would have just gotten used to it by now.
Honestly my biggest concern with it is the concern I have with large games of current 40k: There's only so much you can streamline when it comes to the time taken up by the physical act of picking up, putting down, and moving physical models on the table.
I tried to play a 2v2 3000pt game this weekend and just getting through the first turn was a nightmare with trying to resolve shooting and close combat and movement and deployment...we spent nearly 3 hours getting to the bottom of turn 1. It picked up a little bit after that because the game was basically decided turn 1 - the opposing team deployed enough of their stuff spread across the board that our elite units could use them as charge springboards for extra movement, and they'd blown their load killing our huge chaffpile distraction carnifex, which cost most of their elite characters and close combat units.
The act of physically picking up models, putting them down and rolling the dice was 99% of the experience. And that's not really enjoyable or interesting? The 1500 point game I played last week had vastly more going on in terms of decisions, tactics and thinking.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly my biggest concern with it is the concern I have with large games of current 40k: There's only so much you can streamline when it comes to the time taken up by the physical act of picking up, putting down, and moving physical models on the table.
I tried to play a 2v2 3000pt game this weekend and just getting through the first turn was a nightmare with trying to resolve shooting and close combat and movement and deployment...we spent nearly 3 hours getting to the bottom of turn 1. It picked up a little bit after that because the game was basically decided turn 1 - the opposing team deployed enough of their stuff spread across the board that our elite units could use them as charge springboards for extra movement, and they'd blown their load killing our huge chaffpile distraction carnifex, which cost most of their elite characters and close combat units.
The act of physically picking up models, putting them down and rolling the dice was 99% of the experience. And that's not really enjoyable or interesting? The 1500 point game I played last week had vastly more going on in terms of decisions, tactics and thinking.
This is something i also find so hard. If you play any sort of horde, Its just painful to move around the mass of body. Even my daemon army was quite intensive, and my turns would take twice as long as my OP.
It did not help if we ever rolled a mission that had them able to sit and hide why i had to run my horde for the whole game at them.
It is why i only really play eldar now when someone can really pry me out to play D:
This feel is more unique to 40k , the other large battle games we play never get so painfully slow. Even with more horde like army.
Sometimes i feel orks players are just so dedicated, painting them all. And then putting them out to die in huge clumps D:
Forgot my last thought But i hoping that these streamlined rules are something that can be used for 40k and its not just a extreame to get people buying the big models D: Good game First ! Big models second.
From my experience with large scale games, 4k+ a side, is it's really only fun if you are doing open play, and you put in house rules and scinarios. Like we did attack defend but changed the rules to make.it more enjoyable.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly my biggest concern with it is the concern I have with large games of current 40k: There's only so much you can streamline when it comes to the time taken up by the physical act of picking up, putting down, and moving physical models on the table.
I tried to play a 2v2 3000pt game this weekend and just getting through the first turn was a nightmare with trying to resolve shooting and close combat and movement and deployment...we spent nearly 3 hours getting to the bottom of turn 1. It picked up a little bit after that because the game was basically decided turn 1 - the opposing team deployed enough of their stuff spread across the board that our elite units could use them as charge springboards for extra movement, and they'd blown their load killing our huge chaffpile distraction carnifex, which cost most of their elite characters and close combat units.
The act of physically picking up models, putting them down and rolling the dice was 99% of the experience. And that's not really enjoyable or interesting? The 1500 point game I played last week had vastly more going on in terms of decisions, tactics and thinking.
This is something i also find so hard. If you play any sort of horde, Its just painful to move around the mass of body. Even my daemon army was quite intensive, and my turns would take twice as long as my OP.
It did not help if we ever rolled a mission that had them able to sit and hide why i had to run my horde for the whole game at them.
It is why i only really play eldar now when someone can really pry me out to play D:
This feel is more unique to 40k , the other large battle games we play never get so painfully slow. Even with more horde like army.
Sometimes i feel orks players are just so dedicated, painting them all. And then putting them out to die in huge clumps D:
Forgot my last thought But i hoping that these streamlined rules are something that can be used for 40k and its not just a extreame to get people buying the big models D: Good game First ! Big models second.
The word you're looking for is insane, not dedicated. We are insane.
I own easily over 500 ork models, at least 200 of which are gretchins, and all of them have unique names written on the bases. I gleefully shovel them off the table in huge chunks because what I really look forward to is the one single boy model who takes out 5 space marines on his own and getting to pick him up and say "ah yes, Zlogrit. You accomplished that, good job Zlogrit."
Brutallica wrote: Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.
Does "another game with another set of rules" actually surprise you? Let's see what's actually active for GW right now (ruleset-wise) for at least 40K and AoS which are all still being supported:
40,000
Kill Team (Vanilla)
Kill Team: Commanders
Kill Team: Arena
Kill Team: Elites
Necromunda: Underhive
Necromunda: Gang Wars
Adeptus Titanicus
Blackstone Fortress
Age of Sigmar
Warhammer Underworlds
Age of Sigmar: Skirmish (not popular, but still around)
Blood Bowl
I think there is a new flyer game coming out for 40K and at least one new big launch of a new game for AoS.
So, does a new game with new rules really surprise you? I guess I could see why it'd upset you. But, it's one of those things where I would have figured most people would have just gotten used to it by now.
SG
I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!
I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!
Killteam seems to be doing well. Many forums have tactics thread and it's been going on enough for gw to keep updating it with an elite supplement.
Personally I find killteam boring with its lack of options in units, but many play it.
Another game system that relies on the existing models would probably do well, especially if its focused to the long time collectors and those who prefer larger battles to fully make use of our collections.
I still dont see what you mean by "gw screwing up", seems that despite your opinion gw is still doing well.
Apple fox wrote: The problem apoc game really faces is, game to short it’s not really worth the time to set up. Just pulling things out can take time when it’s just a bit bigger than a standard game.
But if it’s too long, it is still unfeasble for huge amount of players. The hope would be the rules lead to fun games, as I think players would be fine if the games where a bit longer but where fun and entertaining to play in a reasonable time.
Rather than the hell it seemed to be so often before.
40k already has problems with that. There was a whole thread of people relating the shortest game they'd played not that long ago, lots of people had stories about games that were basically decided by the role to see who went first; player 1 gets done shooting, player 2 scoops the remaining half of their army.
I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!
Killteam seems to be doing well. Many forums have tactics thread and it's been going on enough for gw to keep updating it with an elite supplement.
Personally I find killteam boring with its lack of options in units, but many play it.
Another game system that relies on the existing models would probably do well, especially if its focused to the long time collectors and those who prefer larger battles to fully make use of our collections.
I still dont see what you mean by "gw screwing up", seems that despite your opinion gw is still doing well.
Well its my oppinion, other people too (allthough other might disagree and love it), i dont need to refer to their stock value or annual numbers to see how they are "doing". I care about how they go about their releases, how it works and how it affects the hobby/enthusiasm in the gaming room, and currenty its crashgrab galore, and a lot of people lap it up. So yes GW IS indeed screwing up.
Brutallica wrote: I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!
Sorry, but this is all wrong. Making a new set of rules is exactly what Apocalypse requires because the core 40k rules do not scale up to the point level Apocalypse is typically played at. The game bogs down in a masochistic mess of rolling a million dice to remove half the opposing army while the other players go out for lunch. The only thing that can even attempt to make Apocalypse a fun and interesting game is new rules that function at 50,000 points or more. So yes, I'm glad to see GW committing to making the obvious correct choice here instead of screwing it up like every previous version of Apocalypse.
And Kill Team is in a similar position. The 40k rules don't function at 100 points so the obvious correct solution is to make a variant of the 40k rules that incorporates changes suited to that point level. And it works very well, Kill Team is a much better game than 100 point 40k and IMO a much better game than 40k in general.
Well its my oppinion, other people too (allthough other might disagree and love it), i dont need to refer to their stock value or annual numbers to see how they are "doing". I care about how they go about their releases, how it works and how it affects the hobby/enthusiasm in the gaming room, and currenty its crashgrab galore, and a lot of people lap it up. So yes GW IS indeed screwing up.
I get it, I and many others have similar opinions. Though my gripe us with codex creep, old models lines in xenos and aos destruction dfactions, and gw putting out an ever growing pile of options for primaris and stormcast players.
But that is a little off topic. Making rules for another system gives the rules writers something else besides determining if the next impknight or primaris models is op or ok. I see not as much wrong with them making rules for another system unlike my opinion on them favoring the next "not my faction " model release.
Formosa wrote: Total waste of time and money, apoc will fail again because 28mm epic does not work.
Out of curiosity when has "28mm epic" been tried before and how did it fail. Nothing comes to my memory, but to be fair my gaming experience only started at the end of 6th.
If anything it seems trying to go back to epid with titanicus is probably going to not pan out, I barely know anyone who plays it, preferring to play with rules sets for their established collections.
That would be me. Epic works with 40k figures, no problem
Epic troops are five figures to a 20mm base, so one base = one 40k figure. Epic vehicles come in units of three to ten models, so one unit = one 40k vehicle wit three to ten ‘hit points’.
Move distances are shorter (10cm for infantry), shooting distances are shorter (25cm for infantry) so table size stays the same.
My one concession to 40k is to rule that Void Shields can only be affected by weapons with a deduction to Saves.
Brutallica wrote: I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!
Sorry, but this is all wrong. Making a new set of rules is exactly what Apocalypse requires because the core 40k rules do not scale up to the point level Apocalypse is typically played at. The game bogs down in a masochistic mess of rolling a million dice to remove half the opposing army while the other players go out for lunch. The only thing that can even attempt to make Apocalypse a fun and interesting game is new rules that function at 50,000 points or more. So yes, I'm glad to see GW committing to making the obvious correct choice here instead of screwing it up like every previous version of Apocalypse.
And Kill Team is in a similar position. The 40k rules don't function at 100 points so the obvious correct solution is to make a variant of the 40k rules that incorporates changes suited to that point level. And it works very well, Kill Team is a much better game than 100 point 40k and IMO a much better game than 40k in general.
Sorry but your post is all wrong.
40kapoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts
40kapoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts
So.....is this another opinion divorced from reality. I have plenty of those types of opinions.
Every time I see a new primaris character I think, "how about something more xeno related"....but that's my opinion and it is divorced from reality.
The reality is that space marines sell, most players like and buy them, enough people to justify their further development.
And you'll need to acknowledge the reality that simplicity and speed sells. Aos/40k all greatly simplified from the last systems and it seems gw is getting those sales.
If they simplify apoc it will sell better then the previous apoc. Simplicity and speed sell well to general audiences and is easier to atrack more newer players.
Maybe try out new apoc when it comes out. You might enjoy it, you might not.in the end, if you hate new apoc and I hate new primaris then it's not going to change the fact that it sells very well. Someday I'll accept the imperial spank and just learn to enjoy what I have within reason.
As i have stated earlier, i couldnt care less about their sales numbers, and how they pull off their marketing... I care for a good and enjoyable product, and i dont see their apartheid sales model working in the long run.
I know i wont enjoy the new apoc, but i might steal some ideas from it when a russian uploads it to VK and make something that my club is hyped about.
I dont get where all this (speed and simple) stuff comes from, its like people wanna play warhammer but dont want to go through the motions of keeping track of rules, models and dice.
Does apocalyps have rules for recycling units or models for people that take part, but don't bring a 10000pts army? Or is it that if you die turn one, you have to wait hours for the game to finish?
Brutallica wrote: I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!
Sorry, but this is all wrong. Making a new set of rules is exactly what Apocalypse requires because the core 40k rules do not scale up to the point level Apocalypse is typically played at. The game bogs down in a masochistic mess of rolling a million dice to remove half the opposing army while the other players go out for lunch. The only thing that can even attempt to make Apocalypse a fun and interesting game is new rules that function at 50,000 points or more. So yes, I'm glad to see GW committing to making the obvious correct choice here instead of screwing it up like every previous version of Apocalypse.
And Kill Team is in a similar position. The 40k rules don't function at 100 points so the obvious correct solution is to make a variant of the 40k rules that incorporates changes suited to that point level. And it works very well, Kill Team is a much better game than 100 point 40k and IMO a much better game than 40k in general.
I'd go even farther and say that Kill Team actually works pretty well at 200-300 points as well, and I've played a custom Combat Patrol game mode using the 40k unit movement and Kill Team activations and that felt really great at 500pts.
Karol wrote: Does apocalyps have rules for recycling units or models for people that take part, but don't bring a 10000pts army? Or is it that if you die turn one, you have to wait hours for the game to finish?
We won’t know until the new rules come out, obviously.
However, in 5th ED, there was a stratagem that allowed you to redeploy a previously destroyed unit. But that’s about it.
Useful if you lost titan or SH Tank on turn 1 or 2.
Brutallica wrote: As i have stated earlier, i couldnt care less about their sales numbers, and how they pull off their marketing... I care for a good and enjoyable product, and i dont see their apartheid sales model working in the long run.
I know i wont enjoy the new apoc, but i might steal some ideas from it when a russian uploads it to VK and make something that my club is hyped about.
I dont get where all this (speed and simple) stuff comes from, its like people wanna play warhammer but dont want to go through the motions of keeping track of rules, models and dice.
The problem for me is, apoc games right now are not a good an enjoyable product. It’s bordering on worst way to play a table top game.
If you like that now, you can just scale 40k up. But I see this for a chance to make the big games fun for GW.
Now I do not think GW needs simple, they just need good rules. Other games less simplistic in rules tend to still be better to play and have less complications.
But GW makes a lot of sales on people that buy way more product than they ever need, it could be that this product they see as very important to get right.
Brutallica wrote: 40kapoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts
There is a huge difference between "not a quick 500 point game" and "can't play more than one turn before you run out of time". Scaling up the 40k rules produces "games" where you spend three hours sitting around waiting while your opponents masturbate with their dice and then pack up the rest of your models because the alpha strike wiped out half your army and you have no hope of winning.
PS: I find it hilarious that your solution to having different rules is to pirate the book and use it to make your own special snowflake rules that nobody but you and your friends will ever use.
I think speed does sell. Long gone are the days of needing a gm just to play a game of rogue trader.
Now admitedly ease of learning rules does not guarantee a fast game, but you can get faster games with simpler rules and streamlining it.
I welcome this, I dont have the disposable time to run old apoc games . And I love the concept of apoc AMD I would love to play it more regularly, and a faster ruleset is right up my ally.
Me and my brother are already getting hyped for 40k again because of apoc. I'm gonna enjoy buying the box set and trying to organize single day apoc battles that seem more fun through virtue of have the rule that wounds are only counted at the end of the Round. Man, It would be great if ITC incorporated this for normal 40k!
Speed is relative. Fun stuff can go suppert fast. I remember trainings that felt as if they were 8hours sesions, but were just 45 min. And 3 day events, that ended in a blink of an eye.
I hope apocalyps is more interactive then normal w40k. sitting down and waiting till someone moves 100 models, the shots with them, maybe casts some powers is a bore. Multiplied by 5 or 10, would be so boring that I would let my opponent roll to hit, to wound and to save. just to speed things up.
Brutallica wrote: 40kapoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts
There is a huge difference between "not a quick 500 point game" and "can't play more than one turn before you run out of time". Scaling up the 40k rules produces "games" where you spend three hours sitting around waiting while your opponents masturbate with their dice and then pack up the rest of your models because the alpha strike wiped out half your army and you have no hope of winning.
PS: I find it hilarious that your solution to having different rules is to pirate the book and use it to make your own special snowflake rules that nobody but you and your friends will ever use.
I don't understand why some people are so angry that Games Workshop are releasing a new game. If you don't like the idea, can't you just not play it? Why are some people of the opinion, that if something seems like it's not for them, then everyone should be denied its existence too? I mean, I despise the taste of black olives, but that doesn't mean their existence offends me in any way.
Maybe they are angry that it took design time from something they wanted, like a new AoS book or Vigilus 3. Can't think of anything else, other then maybe someone hating Apocalyps as a core idea. To such a person anything new apocalyps related would be a waste of time and space.
I'm super hyped for apocalypse. Based on the fact that damage isn't resolved til the end of a round. I'm guessing we are at least getting the kill team phase order. Where both sides, move, then both sides would shoot. Though it probably won't be alternating shooting activations.
I'm also in camp "use the rules in place of regular 40k if they are good and fast"
Karol wrote: Maybe they are angry that it took design time from something they wanted, like a new AoS book or Vigilus 3. Can't think of anything else, other then maybe someone hating Apocalyps as a core idea. To such a person anything new apocalyps related would be a waste of time and space.
Maybe. But I don't think that's in any way a defensible position. Such a position stinks of entitlement and petulance, and comes across to me like someone asking, "How dare they waste their time working something other than the thing which I personally believe they should be working on instead?" By all means admonish them for giving us stuff that's bad, or for even for not giving us stuff we're asking for - I'm thinking specifically of the rueful situation of your Grey Knight's here, Karol - but I don't think it's fair to take that dissatisfaction out on the other stuff they create. At least not until after we've actually gotten our hands on it first.
I don't think codex and stuff like apocalyps fall in to the same basket of design time at work. Other games modes or games don't bother me at all.
But again, I can imagine the feeling. It is like people training long jump taking up the training era and you have to wait 40-60 min for them to finish. You could be sooner at home, if they were just not there. It is not a happy feeling.
Personaly I find hate or personal dislike a strong argument to do anything as people go. With hate everything can be excused and everything can be explained. A logical argument against something is much harder to fashion.
They haven't said anything about a date yet, but we can assume when it will come out by what we've been shown b4 it.
Contrast paints
New aos Alliance books
New aos box set
Necromunda stuffs
Chaos knights
And other stuff
We might expect it after that, and if you handle that with each release about a 1/2 month apart we might expect something around 3 to 5 months from now.
Edit
I wish it was alot sooner, but aos and primaris marines takes president right now.
