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cvtuttle wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?

I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.

For the record this is already the case. The Studio is now writing all rules and FW is focusing on Specialist Games and 30k.

Unfortunately this likely means we won't see any more Imperial Armour books.

Maybe? If it is that is post indexes. The IA indexes were written by fw.

Well, whether it's done by gw (crossing my finger for this) or fw, they are going to have rules for them for apoc. The video has the big imperator in it, so expect to see gargantuan squigs trundling infantry and reavers getting tripped by chaos knighrs.

I had a very active group that incorporated apoc games into our campaigns back in 5th edition. It was fun as feth.

With 8th edition allowing fliers and Superheavies in normal games, I am not sure what the point is. Just play a 5k game.

We’ll see what apoc specific stuff they add.

 kronk wrote:
I had a very active group that incorporated apoc games into our campaigns back in 5th edition. It was fun as feth.

With 8th edition allowing fliers and Superheavies in normal games, I am not sure what the point is. Just play a 5k game.

We’ll see what apoc specific stuff they add.

One of the surprising things about 8th edition is how quickly you can play larger games, including 5k games. I played a one on one, 5k game, and we got the whole thing done in under 8 hours with a lunch break. We made a few concessions for speed (allowing averages of massive dice rolls; not wasting time with fiddly shots), but the engine works really well for large games of "proper," matched play 40k.

I would imagine that the dedicated apoc rules will include some way to more properly integrate infantry, superheavies, and massed vehicles.

One of the surprising things about 8th edition is how quickly you can play larger games, including 5k games. I played a one on one, 5k game, and we got the whole thing done in under 8 hours with a lunch break.

We play 30k with 8th edition rules. ames are usually around 3k or more. Last time we played 5k, it was done in about 3-4h.(well, 3, sicne we stopped then because other side had no chance). First turn I killed 2k from enemy side, basically game was decided on who got 1st turn...system as it is now, is kinda flawed, because 1st turn can literally mean win or loose in big games. But at least it goes quite fast, and seeing lot of models on table is nice.

 Brutallica wrote:
Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.

Does "another game with another set of rules" actually surprise you? Let's see what's actually active for GW right now (ruleset-wise) for at least 40K and AoS which are all still being supported:

40,000
Kill Team (Vanilla)
Kill Team: Commanders
Kill Team: Arena
Kill Team: Elites
Necromunda: Underhive
Necromunda: Gang Wars
Adeptus Titanicus
Blackstone Fortress

Age of Sigmar
Warhammer Underworlds
Age of Sigmar: Skirmish (not popular, but still around)

Blood Bowl

I think there is a new flyer game coming out for 40K and at least one new big launch of a new game for AoS.

So, does a new game with new rules really surprise you? I guess I could see why it'd upset you. But, it's one of those things where I would have figured most people would have just gotten used to it by now.

SG

Honestly my biggest concern with it is the concern I have with large games of current 40k: There's only so much you can streamline when it comes to the time taken up by the physical act of picking up, putting down, and moving physical models on the table.

I tried to play a 2v2 3000pt game this weekend and just getting through the first turn was a nightmare with trying to resolve shooting and close combat and movement and deployment...we spent nearly 3 hours getting to the bottom of turn 1. It picked up a little bit after that because the game was basically decided turn 1 - the opposing team deployed enough of their stuff spread across the board that our elite units could use them as charge springboards for extra movement, and they'd blown their load killing our huge chaffpile distraction carnifex, which cost most of their elite characters and close combat units.

The act of physically picking up models, putting them down and rolling the dice was 99% of the experience. And that's not really enjoyable or interesting? The 1500 point game I played last week had vastly more going on in terms of decisions, tactics and thinking.

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly my biggest concern with it is the concern I have with large games of current 40k: There's only so much you can streamline when it comes to the time taken up by the physical act of picking up, putting down, and moving physical models on the table.

I tried to play a 2v2 3000pt game this weekend and just getting through the first turn was a nightmare with trying to resolve shooting and close combat and movement and deployment...we spent nearly 3 hours getting to the bottom of turn 1. It picked up a little bit after that because the game was basically decided turn 1 - the opposing team deployed enough of their stuff spread across the board that our elite units could use them as charge springboards for extra movement, and they'd blown their load killing our huge chaffpile distraction carnifex, which cost most of their elite characters and close combat units.

The act of physically picking up models, putting them down and rolling the dice was 99% of the experience. And that's not really enjoyable or interesting? The 1500 point game I played last week had vastly more going on in terms of decisions, tactics and thinking.

This is something i also find so hard. If you play any sort of horde, Its just painful to move around the mass of body. Even my daemon army was quite intensive, and my turns would take twice as long as my OP.
It did not help if we ever rolled a mission that had them able to sit and hide why i had to run my horde for the whole game at them.
It is why i only really play eldar now when someone can really pry me out to play D:
This feel is more unique to 40k , the other large battle games we play never get so painfully slow. Even with more horde like army.
Sometimes i feel orks players are just so dedicated, painting them all. And then putting them out to die in huge clumps D:

Forgot my last thought
But i hoping that these streamlined rules are something that can be used for 40k and its not just a extreame to get people buying the big models D: Good game First ! Big models second.

From my experience with large scale games, 4k+ a side, is it's really only fun if you are doing open play, and you put in house rules and scinarios. Like we did attack defend but changed the rules to make.it more enjoyable.

Apple fox wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly my biggest concern with it is the concern I have with large games of current 40k: There's only so much you can streamline when it comes to the time taken up by the physical act of picking up, putting down, and moving physical models on the table.

I tried to play a 2v2 3000pt game this weekend and just getting through the first turn was a nightmare with trying to resolve shooting and close combat and movement and deployment...we spent nearly 3 hours getting to the bottom of turn 1. It picked up a little bit after that because the game was basically decided turn 1 - the opposing team deployed enough of their stuff spread across the board that our elite units could use them as charge springboards for extra movement, and they'd blown their load killing our huge chaffpile distraction carnifex, which cost most of their elite characters and close combat units.

The act of physically picking up models, putting them down and rolling the dice was 99% of the experience. And that's not really enjoyable or interesting? The 1500 point game I played last week had vastly more going on in terms of decisions, tactics and thinking.

This is something i also find so hard. If you play any sort of horde, Its just painful to move around the mass of body. Even my daemon army was quite intensive, and my turns would take twice as long as my OP.
It did not help if we ever rolled a mission that had them able to sit and hide why i had to run my horde for the whole game at them.
It is why i only really play eldar now when someone can really pry me out to play D:
This feel is more unique to 40k , the other large battle games we play never get so painfully slow. Even with more horde like army.
Sometimes i feel orks players are just so dedicated, painting them all. And then putting them out to die in huge clumps D:

Forgot my last thought
But i hoping that these streamlined rules are something that can be used for 40k and its not just a extreame to get people buying the big models D: Good game First ! Big models second.

The word you're looking for is insane, not dedicated. We are insane.

I own easily over 500 ork models, at least 200 of which are gretchins, and all of them have unique names written on the bases. I gleefully shovel them off the table in huge chunks because what I really look forward to is the one single boy model who takes out 5 space marines on his own and getting to pick him up and say "ah yes, Zlogrit. You accomplished that, good job Zlogrit."

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.

Does "another game with another set of rules" actually surprise you? Let's see what's actually active for GW right now (ruleset-wise) for at least 40K and AoS which are all still being supported:

40,000
Kill Team (Vanilla)
Kill Team: Commanders
Kill Team: Arena
Kill Team: Elites
Necromunda: Underhive
Necromunda: Gang Wars
Adeptus Titanicus
Blackstone Fortress

Age of Sigmar
Warhammer Underworlds
Age of Sigmar: Skirmish (not popular, but still around)

Blood Bowl

I think there is a new flyer game coming out for 40K and at least one new big launch of a new game for AoS.

So, does a new game with new rules really surprise you? I guess I could see why it'd upset you. But, it's one of those things where I would have figured most people would have just gotten used to it by now.

SG

I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!

.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutallica wrote:



I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!

Killteam seems to be doing well. Many forums have tactics thread and it's been going on enough for gw to keep updating it with an elite supplement.

Personally I find killteam boring with its lack of options in units, but many play it.

Another game system that relies on the existing models would probably do well, especially if its focused to the long time collectors and those who prefer larger battles to fully make use of our collections.

I still dont see what you mean by "gw screwing up", seems that despite your opinion gw is still doing well.

Apple fox wrote:
The problem apoc game really faces is, game to short it’s not really worth the time to set up. Just pulling things out can take time when it’s just a bit bigger than a standard game.

But if it’s too long, it is still unfeasble for huge amount of players. The hope would be the rules lead to fun games, as I think players would be fine if the games where a bit longer but where fun and entertaining to play in a reasonable time.
Rather than the hell it seemed to be so often before.

40k already has problems with that. There was a whole thread of people relating the shortest game they'd played not that long ago, lots of people had stories about games that were basically decided by the role to see who went first; player 1 gets done shooting, player 2 scoops the remaining half of their army.

geargutz wrote:
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutallica wrote:



I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!

Killteam seems to be doing well. Many forums have tactics thread and it's been going on enough for gw to keep updating it with an elite supplement.

Personally I find killteam boring with its lack of options in units, but many play it.

Another game system that relies on the existing models would probably do well, especially if its focused to the long time collectors and those who prefer larger battles to fully make use of our collections.

I still dont see what you mean by "gw screwing up", seems that despite your opinion gw is still doing well.

Well its my oppinion, other people too (allthough other might disagree and love it), i dont need to refer to their stock value or annual numbers to see how they are "doing". I care about how they go about their releases, how it works and how it affects the hobby/enthusiasm in the gaming room, and currenty its crashgrab galore, and a lot of people lap it up. So yes GW IS indeed screwing up.

 Brutallica wrote:
I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!

Sorry, but this is all wrong. Making a new set of rules is exactly what Apocalypse requires because the core 40k rules do not scale up to the point level Apocalypse is typically played at. The game bogs down in a masochistic mess of rolling a million dice to remove half the opposing army while the other players go out for lunch. The only thing that can even attempt to make Apocalypse a fun and interesting game is new rules that function at 50,000 points or more. So yes, I'm glad to see GW committing to making the obvious correct choice here instead of screwing it up like every previous version of Apocalypse.

And Kill Team is in a similar position. The 40k rules don't function at 100 points so the obvious correct solution is to make a variant of the 40k rules that incorporates changes suited to that point level. And it works very well, Kill Team is a much better game than 100 point 40k and IMO a much better game than 40k in general.

 Brutallica wrote:

Well its my oppinion, other people too (allthough other might disagree and love it), i dont need to refer to their stock value or annual numbers to see how they are "doing". I care about how they go about their releases, how it works and how it affects the hobby/enthusiasm in the gaming room, and currenty its crashgrab galore, and a lot of people lap it up. So yes GW IS indeed screwing up.

I get it, I and many others have similar opinions. Though my gripe us with codex creep, old models lines in xenos and aos destruction dfactions, and gw putting out an ever growing pile of options for primaris and stormcast players.

But that is a little off topic. Making rules for another system gives the rules writers something else besides determining if the next impknight or primaris models is op or ok. I see not as much wrong with them making rules for another system unlike my opinion on them favoring the next "not my faction " model release.

geargutz wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Total waste of time and money, apoc will fail again because 28mm epic does not work.

Out of curiosity when has "28mm epic" been tried before and how did it fail. Nothing comes to my memory, but to be fair my gaming experience only started at the end of 6th.

If anything it seems trying to go back to epid with titanicus is probably going to not pan out, I barely know anyone who plays it, preferring to play with rules sets for their established collections.

That would be me. Epic works with 40k figures, no problem

Epic troops are five figures to a 20mm base, so one base = one 40k figure. Epic vehicles come in units of three to ten models, so one unit = one 40k vehicle wit three to ten ‘hit points’.

Move distances are shorter (10cm for infantry), shooting distances are shorter (25cm for infantry) so table size stays the same.

My one concession to 40k is to rule that Void Shields can only be affected by weapons with a deduction to Saves.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!

Sorry, but this is all wrong. Making a new set of rules is exactly what Apocalypse requires because the core 40k rules do not scale up to the point level Apocalypse is typically played at. The game bogs down in a masochistic mess of rolling a million dice to remove half the opposing army while the other players go out for lunch. The only thing that can even attempt to make Apocalypse a fun and interesting game is new rules that function at 50,000 points or more. So yes, I'm glad to see GW committing to making the obvious correct choice here instead of screwing it up like every previous version of Apocalypse.

And Kill Team is in a similar position. The 40k rules don't function at 100 points so the obvious correct solution is to make a variant of the 40k rules that incorporates changes suited to that point level. And it works very well, Kill Team is a much better game than 100 point 40k and IMO a much better game than 40k in general.

Sorry but your post is all wrong.

40k apoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts

 Brutallica wrote:


Sorry but your post is all wrong.

40k apoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts

So.....is this another opinion divorced from reality. I have plenty of those types of opinions.

Every time I see a new primaris character I think, "how about something more xeno related"....but that's my opinion and it is divorced from reality.

The reality is that space marines sell, most players like and buy them, enough people to justify their further development.

And you'll need to acknowledge the reality that simplicity and speed sells. Aos/40k all greatly simplified from the last systems and it seems gw is getting those sales.

If they simplify apoc it will sell better then the previous apoc. Simplicity and speed sell well to general audiences and is easier to atrack more newer players.

Maybe try out new apoc when it comes out. You might enjoy it, you might not.in the end, if you hate new apoc and I hate new primaris then it's not going to change the fact that it sells very well. Someday I'll accept the imperial spank and just learn to enjoy what I have within reason.

As i have stated earlier, i couldnt care less about their sales numbers, and how they pull off their marketing... I care for a good and enjoyable product, and i dont see their apartheid sales model working in the long run.

I know i wont enjoy the new apoc, but i might steal some ideas from it when a russian uploads it to VK and make something that my club is hyped about.

I dont get where all this (speed and simple) stuff comes from, its like people wanna play warhammer but dont want to go through the motions of keeping track of rules, models and dice.

Does apocalyps have rules for recycling units or models for people that take part, but don't bring a 10000pts army? Or is it that if you die turn one, you have to wait hours for the game to finish?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
I does not really suprise me, i allready expected GW to f*ck that up when i saw the announcement, im just pissed its released in a format that only shares similarity to 8th (like Killteam). I cannot get used to GWs stupid shinanigans, they have done so much good, but now everything needs to be its own game with its own rules, instead of tieing it together, stick with your guns GW!

Sorry, but this is all wrong. Making a new set of rules is exactly what Apocalypse requires because the core 40k rules do not scale up to the point level Apocalypse is typically played at. The game bogs down in a masochistic mess of rolling a million dice to remove half the opposing army while the other players go out for lunch. The only thing that can even attempt to make Apocalypse a fun and interesting game is new rules that function at 50,000 points or more. So yes, I'm glad to see GW committing to making the obvious correct choice here instead of screwing it up like every previous version of Apocalypse.

And Kill Team is in a similar position. The 40k rules don't function at 100 points so the obvious correct solution is to make a variant of the 40k rules that incorporates changes suited to that point level. And it works very well, Kill Team is a much better game than 100 point 40k and IMO a much better game than 40k in general.

I'd go even farther and say that Kill Team actually works pretty well at 200-300 points as well, and I've played a custom Combat Patrol game mode using the 40k unit movement and Kill Team activations and that felt really great at 500pts.

Karol wrote:
Does apocalyps have rules for recycling units or models for people that take part, but don't bring a 10000pts army? Or is it that if you die turn one, you have to wait hours for the game to finish?

We won’t know until the new rules come out, obviously.

However, in 5th ED, there was a stratagem that allowed you to redeploy a previously destroyed unit. But that’s about it.

Useful if you lost titan or SH Tank on turn 1 or 2.

I believe it should be renamed 'big epic'.

 Brutallica wrote:
As i have stated earlier, i couldnt care less about their sales numbers, and how they pull off their marketing... I care for a good and enjoyable product, and i dont see their apartheid sales model working in the long run.

I know i wont enjoy the new apoc, but i might steal some ideas from it when a russian uploads it to VK and make something that my club is hyped about.

I dont get where all this (speed and simple) stuff comes from, its like people wanna play warhammer but dont want to go through the motions of keeping track of rules, models and dice.

The problem for me is, apoc games right now are not a good an enjoyable product. It’s bordering on worst way to play a table top game.
If you like that now, you can just scale 40k up. But I see this for a chance to make the big games fun for GW.

Now I do not think GW needs simple, they just need good rules. Other games less simplistic in rules tend to still be better to play and have less complications.
But GW makes a lot of sales on people that buy way more product than they ever need, it could be that this product they see as very important to get right.

 Brutallica wrote:
40k apoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts

There is a huge difference between "not a quick 500 point game" and "can't play more than one turn before you run out of time". Scaling up the 40k rules produces "games" where you spend three hours sitting around waiting while your opponents masturbate with their dice and then pack up the rest of your models because the alpha strike wiped out half your army and you have no hope of winning.

PS: I find it hilarious that your solution to having different rules is to pirate the book and use it to make your own special snowflake rules that nobody but you and your friends will ever use.

I think speed does sell. Long gone are the days of needing a gm just to play a game of rogue trader.

Now admitedly ease of learning rules does not guarantee a fast game, but you can get faster games with simpler rules and streamlining it.

I welcome this, I dont have the disposable time to run old apoc games . And I love the concept of apoc AMD I would love to play it more regularly, and a faster ruleset is right up my ally.

Me and my brother are already getting hyped for 40k again because of apoc. I'm gonna enjoy buying the box set and trying to organize single day apoc battles that seem more fun through virtue of have the rule that wounds are only counted at the end of the Round. Man, It would be great if ITC incorporated this for normal 40k!

Speed is relative. Fun stuff can go suppert fast. I remember trainings that felt as if they were 8hours sesions, but were just 45 min. And 3 day events, that ended in a blink of an eye.

I hope apocalyps is more interactive then normal w40k. sitting down and waiting till someone moves 100 models, the shots with them, maybe casts some powers is a bore. Multiplied by 5 or 10, would be so boring that I would let my opponent roll to hit, to wound and to save. just to speed things up.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
40k apoc was great before, and yes og takes time to roll a ton og dice, Guess what... play kill team for Quick Games or 500pts

There is a huge difference between "not a quick 500 point game" and "can't play more than one turn before you run out of time". Scaling up the 40k rules produces "games" where you spend three hours sitting around waiting while your opponents masturbate with their dice and then pack up the rest of your models because the alpha strike wiped out half your army and you have no hope of winning.

PS: I find it hilarious that your solution to having different rules is to pirate the book and use it to make your own special snowflake rules that nobody but you and your friends will ever use.

text removed.
Reds8n

Start your own danish warhammer forum then, if you did not come to dakka to discuss how to play the game with people of other nationalities.