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Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets






With the new contract paint being a gorksend to those in the hobby who have more models then paint skillz(including me), then many of us will start to have fully painted armies ready for the new apocalypse.
The big take always from this are these to snidbits.
----
"Damage is resolved at the end of the turn – so if you’ve been waiting for weeks to use that Reaver Titan, your enemy won’t get to shoot it off the table before it has a chance to retaliate!" 
----
This is amazing for those tired of alpha strikes and getting kromped in melee before they had a chance to swing a power fist. I was planning an apocalypse event before this news and I was planning to have this rule in it. Great minds think alike.
----
"All the rules you need to play the game are in the box, and the rules for your army will be available to download free at launch"
----
This is the biggest part about the reveal I'm most excited about. When they first announced apocalypse I thought "they better have points changes for all factions, especially the stompa, or else this game will be infantry heavy". This doesn't seem To be "8th edition with additional rules" but more like "a completely new game"(probably with rules still inspired by 8th). New rules for all armies, and that includes fw (gw forcing fw to make rules for their existing 40k models is about the only way fw does anything 40k related these days). We might see lord of wars balanced (as balanced as we can expect from gw, switch isnt much, but it will be interesting to play it and find out how they balanced it).

So what do you think? Are you excited? What is some of your theories on what they are doing with this new game? I personally cant wait, as this is reinvigorating me into the hobby as I'll by contrast paint to get ready for some very epic and fast apocalypse battles!

"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket" 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?

I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 20:00:26



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Lance845 wrote:
GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?

I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.

Size of game is a matter of preference but I totally agree with you about FW.

It is in fact counter productive to and cost them money to not include the rules for FW products in their codexes. A lot of a people don't even know they exist. How would they buy then? It's also just common sense. Only 1 party should be writing the rules.

However I am excited about apoc rules - I play a lot of Apoc

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 20:08:50


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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I do think it might be pretty funny if Apoc rules at 2K work better, and people abandon 8th to run Apoc rule games.
   
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Reemule wrote:
I do think it might be pretty funny if Apoc rules at 2K work better, and people abandon 8th to run Apoc rule games.
A lot of talk about this at the shop right now. There is a good chance this will be the case. It might actually be the whole idea.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Reemule wrote:
I do think it might be pretty funny if Apoc rules at 2K work better, and people abandon 8th to run Apoc rule games.


I am basically hoping for it. lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Reemule wrote:
I do think it might be pretty funny if Apoc rules at 2K work better, and people abandon 8th to run Apoc rule games.
A lot of talk about this at the shop right now. There is a good chance this will be the case. It might actually be the whole idea.


GW releases Apoc. I.E. 9th ed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 20:16:07



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in se
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




Sweden

Im also hoping it can replace rules in standard 2000pts games. Hell who knows? Maybe it will even be better at skirmish level than 40k wich would be hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Notice that it comes with a field manual, wich looks like a sleek portable rulebook (seen in the promo vid). Not the huge tomes we currentle contend our backs with...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 22:33:02


Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in dk
Bane Thrall





Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.

Im really not a fan of having seperate rules for Apoc (yes i get it shooting last and all that jazz, but seriously put that stuff in the beta rules), i play the same models in 40k non-apoc yet when apoc they play differently? Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.

New rules = balance...i think not, bloodthirsters are still gonna suck balls and marines are still gonna die in droves.

I think the new rules is gonna streamline the crap out of our models, so we can play fast and loose with a metricton of models in a couple of hours... Thats not apoc to me, and never will be.

I am however gonna rework Apoc 2013 edition for 8th instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 23:32:18


 
   
Made in us
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I'll clarify what I meant by "balance". We want experience codex creep since all faction rules are coming at the same time.
I believe this is objectively better then trying to upgrade 8th as it currently is to apoc, current 40k is highly unbalanced due to codex creep (this is true for all of the history of gw), we have a higher chance for balance when they do them all at the same time, but I don't expect perfect balance.

And as far as quicker games, personally I dont have the time to play multi day apoc games, and rarely does anyone i play, so I'm excited for faster rules.

"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket" 
   
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land of 10k taxes

Has any edition of Apoc been good? More than 2 players a side you only get to turn 2-3 after 12+ hours. If you want MASSED battles in the grim dark, bring back Epic.
   
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

 Brutallica wrote:
Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
/snip


8th edition is better for CC oriented armies than 6th and 7th combined. Full stop.


 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
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 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Has any edition of Apoc been good? More than 2 players a side you only get to turn 2-3 after 12+ hours. If you want MASSED battles in the grim dark, bring back Epic.


I've enjoyed every Apoc game I've played since I started. Yes, you might need two full days to play it out fully but I've always found the mass slaughter of the first few turns with the down to the last few models fighting to the last.

That said, the best ones I had involved a carefully crafted narrative with everyone having a roughly the same amount of super heavies.
   
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 Brutallica wrote:
Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.


8th Edition is really great for close quarters combat. Like, CQC is the strongest I remember it being in a long time, and is probably the most important phase of the game right now.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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 morganfreeman wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
/snip


8th edition is better for CC oriented armies than 6th and 7th combined. Full stop.


That's a low bar to cross

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Made in us
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Well I'm excited to see how it goes. Apoc always seemed to be less of a competitive game and more narrative in nature since the premise has been that we take the armies we have grown over the years and get to see it all on the board.

Of course good balance helps in having fun games. The very concept of "wounds applied at end of round" works so well toward equaling the playing field between who goes 1st or 2nd that I'm surprised this hasn't been added to every game system ever.

"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket" 
   
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Historically, what kinds of rules does Apoc add to the game? I've always been curious about this.

   
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 slave.entity wrote:
Historically, what kinds of rules does Apoc add to the game? I've always been curious about this.


In 4e and 5e superheavies and Flyers were Apocalypse-only; both got added to normal-size games in 6e.

The other things Apocalypse did were Strategic Assets, which were basically a proto-version of Stratagems (you got one that you could use once per game by default, you could get more based on how you built your list, and some cost Victory Points to use), and Apocalypse Formations, which let you take a specific mix of units and pay an extra cost to get some buffs to the units and/or extra Strategic Assets.

7e Apocalypse added apocalypse-level Warlord Traits complete with a 1/game Finest Hour ability where your Warlord got some super-charged version of their Warlord Trait for a turn.

I don't have an old Apoc book in front of me right now, but some sample Apocalypse Formations off the top of my head:
-Lost and the Damned: Dark Apostle, 6+ Cultist units. All units in the formation deploy by Infiltrate. One destroyed Cultist unit is returned to play after each scheduled break. All Cultists gain Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.
-Ravager Titan-Hunters: 3-5 Ravagers. Vehicles in the formation within 6" of the command vehicle gain Shrouded. The command vehicle may fire off a shadow beam that turns off void shields, power fields, or Titan holofields.
-Wraithknight Dreamwalker Squadron: 3-5 Wraithknights. All Wraithknights in the formation gain +1 to movement, charge distance, WS, and BS per model in the formation on the table.
-Infinite Phalanx: 10+ units of Necron Warriors. All combine into one giant mega-unit, which passes Reanimation Protocols on 4+ if there are 100+ models in the unit, or on 3+ if there are 150+ models in the unit.
-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.

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Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
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Both updated irregularly 
   
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Looks like they will have strategic assets for this game with cards for all armies in the box set. The box set seems to not have the new movement trays in it so it might be a fairly reasonable priced box (as compared to the cities of death box).

Also,the announcement video shows players using token (probably a way to keep track of wound and unit losses), and also rolling d12 (the rare instance of a 40k game using something besides a d6.

If d12 are used we might see quite the mixup of the rules if they are relied on For units. Maybe they are for rolling damage and wounds for the massive titans.

As far as forcing fw to make rules I'm ok with this. Fw rarely cares for their 40k models, preferring to focus o 30k. Sure, would be nice for gw to make the rules for them 8nstead, but the companies are separate enough that this is unreasonable (is he supposed to sell books on their own site for models available on another site?).

"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket" 
   
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Dakka Veteran






 AnomanderRake wrote:

Spoiler:

In 4e and 5e superheavies and Flyers were Apocalypse-only; both got added to normal-size games in 6e.

The other things Apocalypse did were Strategic Assets, which were basically a proto-version of Stratagems (you got one that you could use once per game by default, you could get more based on how you built your list, and some cost Victory Points to use), and Apocalypse Formations, which let you take a specific mix of units and pay an extra cost to get some buffs to the units and/or extra Strategic Assets.

7e Apocalypse added apocalypse-level Warlord Traits complete with a 1/game Finest Hour ability where your Warlord got some super-charged version of their Warlord Trait for a turn.

I don't have an old Apoc book in front of me right now, but some sample Apocalypse Formations off the top of my head:
-Lost and the Damned: Dark Apostle, 6+ Cultist units. All units in the formation deploy by Infiltrate. One destroyed Cultist unit is returned to play after each scheduled break. All Cultists gain Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.
-Ravager Titan-Hunters: 3-5 Ravagers. Vehicles in the formation within 6" of the command vehicle gain Shrouded. The command vehicle may fire off a shadow beam that turns off void shields, power fields, or Titan holofields.
-Wraithknight Dreamwalker Squadron: 3-5 Wraithknights. All Wraithknights in the formation gain +1 to movement, charge distance, WS, and BS per model in the formation on the table.
-Infinite Phalanx: 10+ units of Necron Warriors. All combine into one giant mega-unit, which passes Reanimation Protocols on 4+ if there are 100+ models in the unit, or on 3+ if there are 150+ models in the unit.
-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.


Interesting. So extra traits for extra large formations. And new stratagems to go along with it.

How about the missions? Should we expect to see major tweaks to turn sequencing and scoring?

   
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Honestly if the rules play well, and can be scaled down to at least as low as 1500 i could see it wiping 40k out for good here as a game on its own :O
So a bit excited, but reserved.
   
Made in de
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




Even though there aren't any superheavies in our gaming group apocalypse was the most interesting preview for me. I find 2000point games in 40K pretty long already, everything more seems tiresome because of the turnstructure.
But, I'd like to field my 20 Terminators and 70 Plague Marines and I hope apocalypse works for that as well.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

geargutz wrote:
With the new contract paint being a gorksend to those in the hobby who have more models then paint skillz(including me), then many of us will start to have fully painted armies ready for the new apocalypse.
The big take always from this are these to snidbits.
----
"Damage is resolved at the end of the turn – so if you’ve been waiting for weeks to use that Reaver Titan, your enemy won’t get to shoot it off the table before it has a chance to retaliate!" 
This was how damage resolution worked in Battletech, and was something I'd always hoped they'd bring into 40k that would do a lot to take the edge off turn 1 alpha striking, and is practically mandatory for Apoc games.


This is the biggest part about the reveal I'm most excited about. When they first announced apocalypse I thought "they better have points changes for all factions, especially the stompa, or else this game will be infantry heavy". This doesn't seem To be "8th edition with additional rules" but more like "a completely new game"(probably with rules still inspired by 8th). New rules for all armies, and that includes fw (gw forcing fw to make rules for their existing 40k models is about the only way fw does anything 40k related these days). We might see lord of wars balanced (as balanced as we can expect from gw, switch isnt much, but it will be interesting to play it and find out how they balanced it).

So what do you think? Are you excited? What is some of your theories on what they are doing with this new game? I personally cant wait, as this is reinvigorating me into the hobby as I'll by contrast paint to get ready for some very epic and fast apocalypse battles!
The fact that they appear to be rebalancing everything around the larger scale is definitely encouraging.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 04:49:37


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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 slave.entity wrote:
...How about the missions? Should we expect to see major tweaks to turn sequencing and scoring?


The wacky thing 7e Apocalypse did on scoring was a weird hybrid of progressive and end-of-game scoring where objectives were worth points equal to the turn number at the end of the game turn.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
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Bane Thrall





 morganfreeman wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.
/snip


8th edition is better for CC oriented armies than 6th and 7th combined. Full stop.



Nope.
   
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[DCM]
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

That's a low bar to cross


True, but it demonstrates the GW stayed true to their promise.. Which is contrary to what the person I quoted is saying.

Unless you played Grey Knights in 6th, or ran the invisible-drogo-superfriends-Imperium-murderball in 7th, melee is stronger than it's been in a long time. And even if you did one of those things, it's absolutely more balanced than it's been in ages.

CC is probably the best it's been since 4th edition. It's not strong to the point of massively harming shooty armies (3rd), and it's also not extremely abusive in implementation (over-run & fearless shenanigans of 4th). Despite that it's damn strong, both hordes & elite CC elements are viable, plenty of lists feature successful CC elements, and entirely combat oriented armies are not auto lose (or auto win), which is the best place they've been in.. a solid 4+ years.



A compelling argument. Numerous functional examples. Bravo. Despite that, I think you gave me the perfect to your own position:

Nope.

 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
Made in dk
Bane Thrall





 morganfreeman wrote:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:

That's a low bar to cross


True, but it demonstrates the GW stayed true to their promise.. Which is contrary to what the person I quoted is saying.

Unless you played Grey Knights in 6th, or ran the invisible-drogo-superfriends-Imperium-murderball in 7th, melee is stronger than it's been in a long time. And even if you did one of those things, it's absolutely more balanced than it's been in ages.

CC is probably the best it's been since 4th edition. It's not strong to the point of massively harming shooty armies (3rd), and it's also not extremely abusive in implementation (over-run & fearless shenanigans of 4th). Despite that it's damn strong, both hordes & elite CC elements are viable, plenty of lists feature successful CC elements, and entirely combat oriented armies are not auto lose (or auto win), which is the best place they've been in.. a solid 4+ years.



A compelling argument. Numerous functional examples. Bravo. Despite that, I think you gave me the perfect to your own position:

Nope.


Fullstop is not an argument either, stop playing double standards crap when it fits your narrative. I know how my world eaters/kdk and Space Wolves did in 7th and in 8th. My space wolves melee based list killed a riptide wing castle list, that would NEVER happen today. Anywho, im not here to debate if 8th is more melee or not. I know my experience, and other people who feel the same, others might feel different, well good on them.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.

So GW hating grey knights is not just a 8th ed thing, interesting.



CC is probably the best it's been since 4th edition. It's not strong to the point of massively harming shooty armies (3rd), and it's also not extremely abusive in implementation (over-run & fearless shenanigans of 4th). Despite that it's damn strong, both hordes & elite CC elements are viable, plenty of lists feature successful CC elements, and entirely combat oriented armies are not auto lose (or auto win), which is the best place they've been in.. a solid 4+ years.

I don't know what was good before 8th, but in 8th good melee units are, those that very much break the normal melee rules. It is either fighting twice s spears, custodes and smash captins for imperials, or horde. Although horde is valid more because horde is in general better then most things in the game. But again I don't know how the game felt like before 8th, there is a big chance that melee was worse. But that would mean that the game was really really bad, and not is just bad.


   
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Kildare, Ireland

Problem with Apoc historically was D weapons- an attempt to speed up the game by just pulling models off the table. This was no fun for the player on the receiving end and effectively treated marines the same as grots.

If they revise the game so there are no armour saves for infantry, just opposing rolls(S/T), this might be good. This would have the effect of reducing player involvement, unless they have alternating activation.
   
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D-weapons were always an issue, and while I've always loved Apoc battles in the past, the huge points increases that FW arbitrarily gave the Titans just makes them unfeasible thanks to the removal of blasts.
   
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Netherlands

I'm quickly coming to the point where I could host a 10k Apoc game using my own models alone on both sides of the table, so a new Apoc ruleset might make things more spicy. I will watch its career with great interest.

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