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Let's try to drop the whole "is melee viable right now" argument. I love discussion but let's try to keep it on topic.

Like how melee will work In apoc. I think it could be like the aos version of apoc where once any model in a unit makes the charge into another unit then all models are now in combat and you dont have to worry about endless pile In shinadigans.

Of course they could pair this with movement trays In some way to help encourage the sales of movement trays (this could be a pain if they are unreasonably costly....very likely considering this is gw we are talking about).


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topaxygouroun i wrote:
I'm quickly coming to the point where I could host a 10k Apoc game using my own models alone on both sides of the table, so a new Apoc ruleset might make things more spicy. I will watch its career with great interest.

I know right! As of now I've been slowly collecting other armies besides my orks but I've been dragging my feet with playing them because I didn't want to deal with buying books and strat cards just to play them, but free rules for all armies has got me excited to get working on them again and have a beefy force of tau and their guevesa auxiliaries!

geargutz wrote:

So what do you think? Are you excited? What is some of your theories on what they are doing with this new game? I personally cant wait, as this is reinvigorating me into the hobby as I'll by contrast paint to get ready for some very epic and fast apocalypse battles!

Sounds nice. Too bad I'm short of sufficiently big table for apoc size game to be making sense. 10'x6' would be tiny.


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 Brutallica wrote:

I think the new rules is gonna streamline the crap out of our models, so we can play fast and loose with a metricton of models in a couple of hours... Thats not apoc to me, and never will be.

For proper apoc game it CANNOT just be 40k but more models. That does not lead to generals thinking big pictures but just big giant mess decided by who gets first turn.

Skirmish games have skirmish level issues to think. Company company sized. Battallion battallion sized. When you are at battallion level battles positions and armaments of individual models shouldn't be on mind. If they are you aren't playing big epic battle but just rolling dice.

I would be so entertained if the Apoc rules were just Epic 40k rules modified for a modern day use and 28mm scale models.

tneva82 wrote:

Skirmish games have skirmish level issues to think. Company company sized. Battallion battallion sized. When you are at battallion level battles positions and armaments of individual models shouldn't be on mind. If they are you aren't playing big epic battle but just rolling dice.

Yeah, you want some advance rules and detailed troop movement, then gw has both necromunda and killteam.

Advanced rules do not scale well. If they just add rules to 8th then se will have bogged down games (despite 8th being the most streamlined we have had it). They want these games to be possible in an evening, if they want that then they will need to streamline it more.

If you want complicated games with details in every movement and tactic then apoc might not be for you. 8th will be the in between of both philosophies.

Heck, from what I hear even epic wasnt a fast game system. But I liked the concept of potentially trying to go for more mass armies being handled like epic, but with normal 40k models. Yes the table will have to be bigger, but gw does not have to invest in yet another model range that might not sell as much as the tried and tested basic 40k range.
---------
And while it would be hilarious that apoc becomes the system everyone uses instead of 8th, I dont really see this happeing.

While technically you dent need a massive army to play apoc (you can play in a teem), but the concept that this is for the players with massive armies will still be a type of barrier to entry. New players have killteam to get into, when they collect enough they can get into the basic 8th system, and only after a while will they get the models to start doing apoc.

It's the last game system in the chain of progressing in the hobby. It will only draw in the more tenured players and those who had the disposable income to buy their apoc armies in one go.

I'm hoping squads will be treated as single models. Put them on a movement tray, and it becomes a single model with a built-in wound counter.
Not moving and measuring for each model in a unit would help a lot. Also, you wouldn't need to have a number of attacks that's a multiple of the number of models, which could lower the number of rolled dice tremendously. A 10-man squad could have 3 decent shots instead of 20 crappy ones.

I wonder if there will be rules for Sisters at launch.....

Interested to see how the new rules work before I buy

The only thing I am really hoping for Apoc is that it starts the trend of moving superheavies out of "normal" 40k.

Sure man. Squat my army. See how much I want to play after that.

Wayniac wrote:
The only thing I am really hoping for Apoc is that it starts the trend of moving superheavies out of "normal" 40k.

That isn’t a trend nor is it one GW will start. More ways to play, not fewer, means more ways to sell you kits.

Karol wrote:

-I can't remember the name of the GK one out of the 4e book, but you took a Grand Master and 6+ GK infantry units, they could perform a ritual to consecrate terrain peices which penalized nearby Daemons' Invulnerable saves, and if at any point there were no Chaos models left on the board the Chaos player took over the Grey Knights as they purged any witnesses to the warp rift.

So GW hating grey knights is not just a 8th ed thing, interesting.

Read what was written, not what you think was written. Because if you think a formation that hampers daemons is detrimental to GKs then you really do not get anything do you? You see the word "Grey Knights" and go charging into that proverbial windmill without looking at what is written, just knock it off. Apocalypse games were very narrative driven and the above is fully in character for GK. Or have you not read the background for the first Armageddon war for example?

 Brutallica wrote:
Well my take is negative on this, and i hope im wrong, but this apoc game announcement stinks just as much when gw wrote "8th is gonna be great for close combat and get stuck in" right before they show how free fallback works.

Im really not a fan of having seperate rules for Apoc (yes i get it shooting last and all that jazz, but seriously put that stuff in the beta rules), i play the same models in 40k non-apoc yet when apoc they play differently? Im not very happy or optimistic about this fact, last thing GW needed to make was ANOTHER game with ANOTHER set of rules to keep track of.

New rules = balance...i think not, bloodthirsters are still gonna suck balls and marines are still gonna die in droves.

I think the new rules is gonna streamline the crap out of our models, so we can play fast and loose with a metricton of models in a couple of hours... Thats not apoc to me, and never will be.

I am however gonna rework Apoc 2013 edition for 8th instead.

Apocalypse is not for organized play...

I’m gonna laugh if this turns out if the rules just basically become Epic in 28mm scale, which oddly enough is in many case is what is needed at this scale of the game.

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m gonna laugh if this turns out if the rules just basically become Epic in 28mm scale, which oddly enough is in many case is what is needed at this scale of the game.

I never played epic, but I heard bits and pieces about it. I would be really interested to see that being the case.

If these rules mean a 5-8k per army game can be played in a couple hours then 2k games can be in the hour and half range (hopefully). Just not using the more insane models and such could make for great games of regular 40k. JUUUSST saying.

I'm guessing they are going to simplify the wpns and upgrades of units and single models.

Take the gmorkanaut for example. The thing is loaded with wpns that slow down play to choose targets and roll all those dice. We might see a single melee wpn, a single anti titan wpn, and a single anti infantry wpn. This will help speed things up and easier to remember its porifiles.

I got more than enough chaos units and models to run my own side well in an Apoc game. The problem is that the rules need to be stream lined enough. Alpha strikes in an Apoc game are bad, and also, I don't have the time to spend ten hours on one game. lol Chaff units also need to be dealt with. Imagine wasting the bulk of your time moving around chaff units of infantry, chaos cultists, who are 40 to 50 points a squad... Big conscript units and cultists units are probably not much better. Honestly, maybe they should be disallowed from Apoc games. lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I got more than enough chaos units and models to run my own side well in an Apoc game. The problem is that the rules need to be stream lined enough. Alpha strikes in an Apoc game are bad, and also, I don't have the time to spend ten hours on one game. lol Chaff units also need to be dealt with. Imagine wasting the bulk of your time moving around chaff units of infantry, chaos cultists, who are 40 to 50 points a squad... Big conscript units and cultists units are probably not much better. Honestly, maybe they should be disallowed from Apoc games. lol

Chaff will be not as bad with the implementation of movement trays. Of course I would agree that I would like for more emphasis on vehicles and monsters in apoc, especialy since the majority of them suck in 8th and its dominated by hordes.

Maybe they will serve a purpose besides being screens against charges. If I understand the void shields of titans can be overloaded in epic with massed infantry fire. Would be cool if they served a similar purpise.

The problem is chaff units suck up so much time. because each model is so cheap. You have tons of models of chaff. And then you spend all your time moving them, shooting them, rolling saves which they will almost surely fail.

Its like moving a bunch of 40 conscripts into rapid fire range of a knight (or titan). First you have to move 40 models, then you have to roll 80 dice to hit, and then another 40 dice to wound... And after all that, maybe you do actually 1 damage that is unsaved. I think people play Apoc for big expensive units rather than to have an even more massive horde...

A 4000 points conscript horde is 1000 models... lol How many titans would you even need to put a dent in that. But seriously, who wants to play a 1000 model conscript army in an Apoc game? lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The problem is chaff units suck up so much time. because each model is so cheap. You have tons of models of chaff. And then you spend all your time moving them, shooting them, rolling saves which they will almost surely fail.

Its like moving a bunch of 40 conscripts into rapid fire range of a knight (or titan). First you have to move 40 models, then you have to roll 80 dice to hit, and then another 40 dice to wound... And after all that, maybe you do actually 1 damage that is unsaved. I think people play Apoc for big expensive units rather than to have an even more massive horde...

A 4000 points conscript horde is 1000 models... lol How many titans would you even need to put a dent in that. But seriously, who wants to play a 1000 model conscript army in an Apoc game? lol

There are lots of people that would love to see massive army face off against another massive army, rather than just a bunch of big titans stomping around. For a lot of players, that was what Apoc was for around where i was. Russ and landraiders where the big tanks that come to the fight even when ramp up the size.
Balance is also about making sure players can bring units and army like that and not just be a time sink of uselessness.

Total waste of time and money, apoc will fail again because 28mm epic does not work.

 Formosa wrote:
Total waste of time and money, apoc will fail again because 28mm epic does not work.

Out of curiosity when has "28mm epic" been tried before and how did it fail. Nothing comes to my memory, but to be fair my gaming experience only started at the end of 6th.

If anything it seems trying to go back to epid with titanicus is probably going to not pan out, I barely know anyone who plays it, preferring to play with rules sets for their established collections.

geargutz wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Total waste of time and money, apoc will fail again because 28mm epic does not work.

Out of curiosity when has "28mm epic" been tried before and how did it fail. Nothing comes to my memory, but to be fair my gaming experience only started at the end of 6th.

If anything it seems trying to go back to epid with titanicus is probably going to not pan out, I barely know anyone who plays it, preferring to play with rules sets for their established collections.

Apoc is basically Epic in 28mm, yes it has different rules but the mass battle large scale system they are trying to shoe horn into 40k several times now has failed miserably every single time, if they really want to do a mass battle system then they need to make a new set of epic rules or just bring back epic, but they are likely sitting on it as they dont want to cannibalise 40k sales.

 Formosa wrote:

Apoc is basically Epic in 28mm, yes it has different rules but the mass battle large scale system they are trying to shoe horn into 40k several times now has failed miserably every single time, if they really want to do a mass battle system then they need to make a new set of epic rules or just bring back epic, but they are likely sitting on it as they dont want to cannibalise 40k sales.

Maybe I'm still not getting it.
The models associated with epic sell well enough. Peeps still buy stompas/baneblades and other fw superheavies, helped that they can be played in normal 40k baring of course tournament restrictions.

So at the end of the day apoc is a ruleset. The models already exist and work for other systems and sell on their own without the need of apoc. All they did was spend the Capitol to get the book made. I can even see the one actual bit of plastic from the launch of apoc (the movement trays) being bought for normal 40k games (many an ork player invest in 3rd part trays to help the green tide reach gr heir enemy).

Now making a whole model range around apoc that can only be used for apoc will probably eventually fail (my example of this epic, we definitely dont see that system supported anymore and the system close enough isnt ven the right size and seems to be niche).

So I guess I'm not seeing the "evidence" that this has failed before or will fail again. I expect gw will be experiencing a net positive with the release.

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m gonna laugh if this turns out if the rules just basically become Epic in 28mm scale, which oddly enough is in many case is what is needed at this scale of the game.

Seeing your formation could zip 105cm+ then scaled up to 28mm...Need pretty big table ;-)


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geargutz wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Apoc is basically Epic in 28mm, yes it has different rules but the mass battle large scale system they are trying to shoe horn into 40k several times now has failed miserably every single time, if they really want to do a mass battle system then they need to make a new set of epic rules or just bring back epic, but they are likely sitting on it as they dont want to cannibalise 40k sales.

Maybe I'm still not getting it.
The models associated with epic sell well enough. Peeps still buy stompas/baneblades and other fw superheavies, helped that they can be played in normal 40k baring of course tournament restrictions.

So at the end of the day apoc is a ruleset. The models already exist and work for other systems and sell on their own without the need of apoc. All they did was spend the Capitol to get the book made. I can even see the one actual bit of plastic from the launch of apoc (the movement trays) being bought for normal 40k games (many an ork player invest in 3rd part trays to help the green tide reach gr heir enemy).

Now making a whole model range around apoc that can only be used for apoc will probably eventually fail (my example of this epic, we definitely dont see that system supported anymore and the system close enough isnt ven the right size and seems to be niche).

So I guess I'm not seeing the "evidence" that this has failed before or will fail again. I expect gw will be experiencing a net positive with the release.

Issue is going to be simple practicality. For it to be even close to working as well as epic rules worked you need to have board that's relatively about same size as 6'x4' was for 6mm models. Start counting that. If it's 6'x4' board with 28mm models but epic sized scales...well the epic rules wont' work anymore.

How big board your home can house? And can you say move models in center of 7-10' deep table?

tneva82 wrote:

How big board your home can house? And can you say move models in center of 7-10' deep table?

Ok...I'll play at the game store.
How many players have homes with enough room to even play normal 40k games?
Everyone I know plays at the flgs.

And the same has been true for apoc in the past. Heck, since they are designing to to be played quickly then players dont have to worry about it being a multi day afar, instead spending just a single day for a truly massive battle (of course the most epic of apoc are held as their own tourney like events with rented conference rooms).

So I dont see this being much as a barrier to entry.

The problem apoc game really faces is, game to short it’s not really worth the time to set up. Just pulling things out can take time when it’s just a bit bigger than a standard game.

But if it’s too long, it is still unfeasble for huge amount of players. The hope would be the rules lead to fun games, as I think players would be fine if the games where a bit longer but where fun and entertaining to play in a reasonable time.
Rather than the hell it seemed to be so often before.

I think if APOC the trick is to leave complexity on your higher level stuff, and reduce it on the chaff.

For example, a single guard squad is rduced to a single attack and damage roll.. and save. Same with a squad of Intercessors, or Terminators.

But a Land Raider would have more shots, wounds and a save.

A Knight would have even more shots wounds, saves, and rules. And a Titan would have the most complexity.

I think that is Hewey shows up with his THunderhawk, and Dewey with his Asterus, and Louie with his Stompa, the game they play should reward them for those models, while allowing Scrooge who showed up with 300 termigants and 10 Malfactors to also play and have a good game.

 Lance845 wrote:
GW shouldn't make FW do anything for 40k. FW should be making the models they tell them to make and then they (the 40k design team) should be making the rules. Why are 2 different teams making rules for 1 game?

I am interested in seeing the rule set. I don't think il ever play a massive 5k+ game but maybe I can play1-2k games with better rules.

For the record this is already the case. The Studio is now writing all rules and FW is focusing on Specialist Games and 30k.

Unfortunately this likely means we won't see any more Imperial Armour books.

If its that abstract -and sounds interesting it should work playing 28mm Epic with real epic models!

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Has any edition of Apoc been good? More than 2 players a side you only get to turn 2-3 after 12+ hours. If you want MASSED battles in the grim dark, bring back Epic.

I have absolutely loved Apocalypse so - yeah I would say several editions of it have been good. If it is organized well it is a blast.

I did notice that in the community preview that the tokens looked like the ones from Epic - Advance, First Fire, etc. so they may very well be using Epic as the base for the rules (especially if they use movement trays for infantry squads).