Is the Land Raider "The epitome of bad". Is it the perfectly worst choice in the entire game.
The Executioner thread is being flooded with claims that it's the Land Raider, and that seems exaggerated to me.
Things I think of as worse:
-Drop Pods (as now - I was called out for arguing they would be undercosted when someone suggested 0ppm for them, so I mean as currently pointed.)
-Any Titan
-Tantaulous
-FW Greater Demons (Sir Vowels-For-name, not "Fateweaver")
-Assault Marines
-Stompa
-Gorka/Morkanaught
-Squiggoths
-Vampyr Hunter/Raider
-Corsairs (foot, jetpack, or bike)
In an effort to declutter the Executioner thread, lets hash this out here.
Received new rules:
-It must not be bigger than a "normal" sized unit - as those bigger models are priced out of the game.
-It must not be cheaper than a Land Raider - as you can more easily absorb the cost.
-It must not be FW, as those aren't as well known.
-It must be Imperium. Reasons not given, just stated as obvious.
Not Online!!! wrote: Fw malcador, the bigger leman russ that ain't even as capable as a leman but costs more then double of it.
Vanquishers.
Raptors.
Raptors in host raptoral can have a 7 inch charge that doesn't allow overwatch. In black legion they can get on demand +1 attack and fight twice if they are korn with reroll hits. Realistically that can do a ton of damage. Most importantly though. They can stop overwatch for the rest of your army...Think...korn bezerkers trying to charge a tau sept battle line. That is an auto win condition.
Vanquishers are still better than basically every space marine tank option. They just are worse than battle cannons.
not sure what a malcadore is. Did you mean macharius heavy tank? The model with steal behemoth and 22 wounds with a 2d6d6 damage battle cannon? Yeah it's not great but it is better than a LR. It is tougher and has much higher damage potential. You can get it hitting on 3's a number of ways. It can shoot and fall back - it can also shoot while locked in combat. LR gets shut off by a Gretchen.
Bharring wrote: Received new rules:
-It must not be bigger than a "normal" sized unit - as those bigger models are priced out of the game.
-It must not be cheaper than a Land Raider - as you can more easily absorb the cost.
-It must not be FW, as those aren't as well known.
-It must be Imperium. Reasons not given, just stated as obvious.
Can only carry 1 unit. That unit is either 20 or less models (so no full units of hormagaunts) or 1 Monster.
So you can't bring a unit and the characters that buff them. You can't drop the swarmlord and tyrant guard to protect it.
It has a BS 5+ with 5 guns that put that model at around 200 points.
It has a worse BS, worse Save, worse utility. The Tcyte is total crap.
Correct me if I am wrong but it's min cost is 100 and it is the only way to DS certain monsters such as swarmlord to set up swarm command for another charging unit. You can do this and still charge with swarmy while casting onslaught on something else and the thing can still move and averages 5 str 5 ap1 hits. Ehh. It's bad. Maybe the worst tyrranid unit overall. It still does things that nothing else can do. Copmpared to a drop pod it is amazing. Compared to a trygon...not so good but also much cheaper.
There are very few units that are more expensive than a land raider. If you want people to pick the Land Raider as the worst choice, just leave that as the only qualification.
If you want reasonable answer, the Vindicator is pretty darn bad in comparison . 24” less range, 1-3 less shots, no power of the machine spirit, 3+ save, fewer wounds, no transport capacity, and a worse anti infantry options
Bharring wrote: Received new rules:
-It must not be bigger than a "normal" sized unit - as those bigger models are priced out of the game.
-It must not be cheaper than a Land Raider - as you can more easily absorb the cost.
-It must not be FW, as those aren't as well known.
-It must be Imperium. Reasons not given, just stated as obvious.
I'm not making this up.
Nonsense rules.
It must not be part of the doubling of points on many forge world units which were already in an awkwardly high price to being with. This points change right around the first chapter approved was clearly a statement to state these units were not intended for games of 40k.
It can be cheaper than a LR - that is fine. If it is super cheap and fills detachments that has a value of it's own - you must keep that in mind in your analysis. Also - often you have points left over in list contraction insmall amounts that would just be wasted points otherwise.
It can certainly be FW. Not an issue. It shouldn't be corsairs though because they don't even have a codex.
It must be imperium because we are talking about it being taken in a space marine army.
Im fine with those stipulations. Bring it on. Lets find us some units worse than LR. Keep in mind a LR is around 280 points and can be shut off by being touched in CC. It doesn't get an army trait. Has no invulnerable save. Has low firepower for it's cost. Has no stratagems to really help it except for 5++ to mortal wounds. Or fall back and shoot as DA. Plus it can transport units but can only transport 3 of the desired unit (HB cents). Lets keep the discussion about the godpattern for not. The other 2 varients are even worse IMO (esp after the asters bolter nerf).
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evil_kiwi_60 wrote: There are very few units that are more expensive than a land raider. If you want people to pick the Land Raider as the worst choice, just leave that as the only qualification.
If you want reasonable answer, the Vindicator is pretty darn bad in comparison . 24” less range, 1-3 less shots, no power of the machine spirit, 3+ save, fewer wounds, no transport capacity, and a worse anti infantry options
Yet in combination with another 2 vindis it can unleash essentially the most powerful ability in the game. 3d3 mortal wound splash damage. I played 3 of them yesterday as black legion and I destroyed 30 immortals and 2 cryptic with a single use of this stratagem. perfect rolls mind you. It basically won me the game on the first turn though.
Also 2 vindis cost less than 1 LR. Plus they are better in cetain situations. For example. Id much rather have the vindis vs necron wraiths. Or custdian gaurd. Or basically any T5 multi wound model that comes in units of 5. You will get over double the damage in those situations.
As someone who plays a supreme command of LR often. The demo russ is unanimously always targeted first. Something about wounding on 2's doing d6 damage scares people.
Morkphoiz wrote: The Epitome of Bad considering only imperial Units has to be the deathstrike.
I do believe you are correct in this case. Literally the worst rules I have ever seen. We are literally talking about a unit that can not shoot until turn 2 on a 6+ and probably averages something weak like 6 mortal wounds to a single target. However. 2 of them Can potentially with a little bit of luck kill a LR while costing less than it. and if you are lucky you get some spash damage too. For the same cost you can get a manticore though...it's asinine. The model literally has a rule that says it can't do anything. LOL
Said ability needs all 3 tanks alive and all 3 within 6” of each other. You also had to roll at least 4 4+ and 2 5+ with above average roles. Before looking at the damage roll you had about a 1/16 chance of hitting all of those blobs and that drops dramatically when you take the 1/3 chance each cryptek represented. If you take the high damage roll into account, you’re entire argument rest on an extremely small probability that probably needed first turn and for your opponent to completely misread the board. Rolling great can make up for any lousy unit.
If you face those 3 vindicators against the land raider, the land raider will destroy all 3 if you plan based on probability. If you take the best possible option, the land raider can kill 2 of the vindicators in one salvo.
Toughness 5 is the one area the vindicator is better but the 24” range needs you opponent to be stupid for the gun to be successful
Morkphoiz wrote: The Epitome of Bad considering only imperial Units has to be the deathstrike.
I do believe you are correct in this case. Literally the worst rules I have ever seen. We are literally talking about a unit that can not shoot until turn 2 on a 6+ and probably averages something weak like 6 mortal wounds to a single target. However. 2 of them Can potentially with a little bit of luck kill a LR while costing less than it. and if you are lucky you get some spash damage too. For the same cost you can get a manticore though...it's asinine. The model literally has a rule that says it can't do anything. LOL
No. In a Vacuum a Land Raider would win even against 3 deathstrikes because they would not do jack the first turns and their bs degrades when you shoot them making their Output even more laughable.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Said ability needs all 3 tanks alive and all 3 within 6” of each other. You also had to roll at least 4 4+ and 2 5+ with above average roles. Before looking at the damage roll you had about a 1/16 chance of hitting all of those blobs and that drops dramatically when you take the 1/3 chance each cryptek represented. If you take the high damage roll into account, you’re entire argument rest on an extremely small probability that probably needed first turn and for your opponent to completely misread the board. Rolling great can make up for any lousy unit.
If you face those 3 vindicators against the land raider, the land raider will destroy all 3 if you plan based on probability. If you take the best possible option, the land raider can kill 2 of the vindicators in one salvo.
Toughness 5 is the one area the vindicator is better but the 24” range needs you opponent to be stupid for the gun to be successful
you can advance and pop smoke use the stratagem that is an average of 24+10+d6 + 3(because its a 3 inch aura) for an average 40 inch threat range (39ish if you consider the models take us space) That is more than enough to pull it off. Sometimes you roll hot though. Sometimes you roll hot and your opponent makes 4x 4++ saves on their power unit when you hit it with 4 LC though. Mortal wounds say...I don't care about your stats. I roll high you lose. It is very powerful man. I suggest you try it out. Since I started using the blokes I find it hard to stop in any of my SM or chaos lists. At the very least - it forces your opponent to not shot you super units because they cant let you use that stratagem.
I wouldn’t be arguing against it if I hadn’t tried it dude. Now I’ll admit that many metas are different but the success you're pushing for is not what you plan around. On average each successful hit will do 6 mortal wounds. It hits half the time so it’s averaging about 3 mortal wounds on a random unit.
Also you only get one shot at pulling that off, otherwise there’s going to be a dead vindicator. And heaven help you if you lose one before the first turn. If the situation is perfect, it’s a great ability. Most of the time it will not be perfect and you’ll do scratch damage for the cost of 1 CP and 400+ points.
Actually I played a slightly larger game last night at 2750 points, and took two standard Land Raiders. It wound up being more or less a tank/Dreadnought battle vs. Custodes. My opponent gave up towards the end of the first shooting phase as I had knocked out around half of his army.
I heard some Grey Knights player took a relatively big tournament with two Land Raiders in his army.
Tervigon and Ridgerunner are up there for worst units in the game.
The former is now 200 points of nothing (bad shooting/melee/support) that gets destroyed by any resemblance of AP while the latter is a "Mobile vehicle" with BS 4+ and only heavy weapons to choose from, Toughness FIVE and 4+ armour save with no chapter tactics and limited sinergies, all for the mere cost of 84 pts (the best choice mind you)
Can only carry 1 unit. That unit is either 20 or less models (so no full units of hormagaunts) or 1 Monster.
So you can't bring a unit and the characters that buff them. You can't drop the swarmlord and tyrant guard to protect it.
It has a BS 5+ with 5 guns that put that model at around 200 points.
It has a worse BS, worse Save, worse utility. The Tcyte is total crap.
Correct me if I am wrong but it's min cost is 100 and it is the only way to DS certain monsters such as swarmlord to set up swarm command for another charging unit. You can do this and still charge with swarmy while casting onslaught on something else and the thing can still move and averages 5 str 5 ap1 hits. Ehh. It's bad. Maybe the worst tyrranid unit overall. It still does things that nothing else can do. Copmpared to a drop pod it is amazing. Compared to a trygon...not so good but also much cheaper.
Ah yeah, 100 points. Fair. My bad on the point cost.
However, to your other points, 1) The swarmlord doesn't need to be deep struck. It can slingshot itself into the enemies front line easily from your own front line. And 2) it's fast enough that it has no need to be deepstruck to slingshot another unit. Putting a SL into the thing means you are paying an extra 100 points ontop of the already expensive 250 point 12 wound SL so that you can put him front and center and get him blasted off the table in a single turn. Which brings me to point 3) the swarmlord isn't really any good. It LOOKS good on paper and the Genestealer "bomb" slingshot trick is a decent enough tactic when you pull it off. But the point investment to do it is 250 SL + 240 GS + a second 240 point GS because you want 2 units in case one of them gets killed early so you want a redundancy to ensure it goes off for a total of 730 points for a one trick pony.
So no. The Tcyte is crap and it's uses are none which is why you have never seen one on the table in 8th ed.
After their 100 points drop they are reasonably average. With 5+FNP on it it is quite chunky and has reasonable firepower with the suncannon build. By no means amazing but better than a knight in certain situations. Where having decent shooting and a 5++ in melle are what you are looking for. It also can have the infamous -1 to hit aloitoc trait.
Tau flyers, especially the Sun Shark. They don't just need a points drop, they need new rules. Bad.
Chaos Daemon chariots that aren't characters or Skull Cannons. Way too squishy even if they are not too expensive. And the Slaanesh ones have to reach close combat to do anything, which no competent opponent is going to allow to happen. At least Skull Cannons can sit back at long range rather than needing to get into melee range, so they might actually have a chance to do something. And the character ones mostly have less than 10 wounds and so can hide (I think; correct me if I'm wrong please!).
Leman Russ variants that aren't a Battle Tank, Executioner, or Punisher. The other weapons don't offer anything special at all. Vanquisher would be better if it got more shots, Eradicator is just a crappy Battle Cannon, Exterminator is just autocannons (which are available on plenty of other, cheaper platforms), and Demolisher is way too short-ranged for a Russ to safely operate at.
Absolute worst choice to spend points on? The Mek Workshop. Hands down, conversation is over, this is the champion. What does it do, you might ask. Well...
This is an 80ppm Fortification. Pretty cheap, right? Well, here's what you get for those 80 points.
1) if you can lure the enemy to within 1" of it, while your own Infantry is within 1" of it, you can roll 1d6 and on a 4+ deal a whole D3 MW.
2) you can have one of your vehicles basically give up an entire turn to receive either a 6" movement speed increase until the end of the next Movement Phase, heal D3 damage (or a flat 3 if a Big Mek is nearby), OR get the maximum amount of shots on single variable shot weapon on that model the next time it shoots.
3) that's it. Well, I guess you have a 16.7% chance of getting a very minor bonus for the rest of the game when you get a Kustom Job... but...
There you go. You just spent 80 pts to lock one of your own units out of the battle for a whole turn. Or, in other words, this is an 80 point investment that makes your army worse. I can't think of a single worse thing. Even a Stompa *can* be useful. But this? Well, for example, you give up a turn of moving for an extra 6" of movement. Once. You could literally just move over two turns and almost any vehicle will move further than that extra 6". Max shots? Just shoot over two turns. The only marginally useful thing about it is the MW Klaw, and good luck getting your opponent within 1" of this thing when he/she knows you have it. As a Fortification, it can't move either, so you have to wait for someone stupid to just walk into the damage.
We can do this one with Fortifications all day. The Skyshield Landing pad that heals flyers that landed on the pad, even though they can't land on the pad. If you house rule it so they can they'd still lose their defensive benefits likely costing them far more wounds that they'd gain.
Not Online!!! wrote: Fw malcador, the bigger leman russ that ain't even as capable as a leman but costs more then double of it.
Vanquishers.
Raptors.
Raptors in host raptoral can have a 7 inch charge that doesn't allow overwatch. In black legion they can get on demand +1 attack and fight twice if they are korn with reroll hits. Realistically that can do a ton of damage. Most importantly though. They can stop overwatch for the rest of your army...Think...korn bezerkers trying to charge a tau sept battle line. That is an auto win condition.
Vanquishers are still better than basically every space marine tank option. They just are worse than battle cannons.
not sure what a malcadore is. Did you mean macharius heavy tank? The model with steal behemoth and 22 wounds with a 2d6d6 damage battle cannon? Yeah it's not great but it is better than a LR. It is tougher and has much higher damage potential. You can get it hitting on 3's a number of ways. It can shoot and fall back - it can also shoot while locked in combat. LR gets shut off by a Gretchen.
No Raptors CAN NOT IGNORE OVERWATCH, even in raptorial host. They also can't get on demand +1 attack for beeing BL. I seriously doubt you have read vigilus Ablaze at this point. what you get is 2" more charge range if you are within 6 " of your warlord.
A vnquisher has 2 shots on BS 4+ that do less damage on average than a BC. But it pays more. Come again?
A MAlcador is this thing: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-BE/Malcador-with-Battle-Cannon It has a single BC, it costs baseline 190 without the BC. It has 4 W more then a Leman russ. It can't shoot twice, it has not steel behemoth. In a word. It's gak at the pricepoint of a Landraider, infact i would probably chose a landraider of any variation before i would chose a malcador ruleswise.
Bharring wrote: Received new rules:
-It must not be bigger than a "normal" sized unit - as those bigger models are priced out of the game.
-It must not be cheaper than a Land Raider - as you can more easily absorb the cost.
-It must not be FW, as those aren't as well known.
-It must be Imperium. Reasons not given, just stated as obvious.
I'm not making this up.
Wow, look at those goalposts move!
Yeah, that's why I dropped out of the question.
The question's been answered by over a dozen choices that seem broadly accepted as worse.
This just devolved into further redesigning the question once a person has committed to the answer.
I'll nominate the DEHQs - especially the Archon and Succubus.
Archons: - Vastly overcosted for what they bring (they're about on par with a Canoness, yet cost ~25pts more).
- Gimmicky, unreliable save and no longer has any option to swap it out for a basic 4++.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space and stupid minimum squad sizes.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on a special weapon and a heavy weapon.
- Very poor melee ability, doubly so for an HQ that just lost it's only decent shooting weapon.
- Passable ranged ability . . . but only if you use an Index (i.e. non-Codex) option.
- 0 synergy with his own subfaction.
- 0 ability to buff other subfactions.
- Worthless aura that's completely incompatible with the entire playstyle of DE.
- As mentioned above, the Archon has no mobility option outside of a transport. However, his aura isn't allowed to extend outside of a transport.
- What's more, other Kabal units want to be in transports as well, and even if the Archon is on foot his aura still isn't allowed to affect units inside nearby transports.
- The Archon's aura doesn't even affect units inside his own transport.
- Hell, the Archon can't even buff *himself* when inside a transport. This, I remind you, from the leader of a faction that is supposed to have trained for millennia in the art of fighting from transports. - Even outside of a transport, the Archon's aura is completely useless on his own Court.
Succubi: - Dedicated melee HQ... yet has the fewest attacks of our HQs. - In spite of being a melee HQ, her melee presence is laughably bad - not least because of how horrendously awful the Glaive is. Sorry but 4 attacks at S5 AP-3 with a miserably 1 damage is not scaring anyone. And to make matters worse, GW thought this weapon so unbelievably powerful that it needed a -1 to hit. That's how much they hate the idea of our HQs being even remotely good.
- Hope you're playing Red Grief so that you can actually access the only worthwhile melee weapon for your melee HQ. Also, just to reiterate this point, I think it says something about the quality of our melee weapons that a Power Fist is worthy of being an artefact.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on at least one special weapon.
- Piddling aura.
- As with the Archon, has no ability to buff units outside of her subfaction.
- However, she is also unable to buff some units within her subfaction - namely Beasts (incidentally, the only fast unit she could potentially keep up with).
- Because of aforementioned lack of mobility, isn't able to keep up with Hellions or Reavers to buff them.
And what makes these so much worse is that they're mandatory. For as godawful as Land Raiders are, Marine players at least have the option of ignoring them entirely. DE players don't have that luxury because these two are the only available HQs for Kabal and Cult armies, respectively (outside of Drazhar, who somehow manages to be even worse). A Kabal Battalion has to include two of the useless bastards.
vipoid wrote: I'll nominate the DEHQs - especially the Archon and Succubus.
Archons: - Vastly overcosted for what they bring (they're about on par with a Canoness, yet cost ~25pts more).
- Gimmicky, unreliable save and no longer has any option to swap it out for a basic 4++.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space and stupid minimum squad sizes.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on a special weapon and a heavy weapon.
- Very poor melee ability, doubly so for an HQ that just lost it's only decent shooting weapon.
- Passable ranged ability . . . but only if you use an Index (i.e. non-Codex) option.
- 0 synergy with his own subfaction.
- 0 ability to buff other subfactions.
- Worthless aura that's completely incompatible with the entire playstyle of DE.
- As mentioned above, the Archon has no mobility option outside of a transport. However, his aura isn't allowed to extend outside of a transport.
- What's more, other Kabal units want to be in transports as well, and even if the Archon is on foot his aura still isn't allowed to affect units inside nearby transports.
- The Archon's aura doesn't even affect units inside his own transport.
- Hell, the Archon can't even buff *himself* when inside a transport. This, I remind you, from the leader of a faction that is supposed to have trained for millennia in the art of fighting from transports. - Even outside of a transport, the Archon's aura is completely useless on his own Court.
Succubi: - Dedicated melee HQ... yet has the fewest attacks of our HQs. - In spite of being a melee HQ, her melee presence is laughably bad - not least because of how horrendously awful the Glaive is. Sorry but 4 attacks at S5 AP-3 with a miserably 1 damage is not scaring anyone. And to make matters worse, GW thought this weapon so unbelievably powerful that it needed a -1 to hit. That's how much they hate the idea of our HQs being even remotely good.
- Hope you're playing Red Grief so that you can actually access the only worthwhile melee weapon for your melee HQ. Also, just to reiterate this point, I think it says something about the quality of our melee weapons that a Power Fist is worthy of being an artefact.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on at least one special weapon.
- Piddling aura.
- As with the Archon, has no ability to buff units outside of her subfaction.
- However, she is also unable to buff some units within her subfaction - namely Beasts (incidentally, the only fast unit she could potentially keep up with).
- Because of aforementioned lack of mobility, isn't able to keep up with Hellions or Reavers to buff them.
And what makes these so much worse is that they're mandatory. For as godawful as Land Raiders are, Marine players at least have the option of ignoring them entirely. DE players don't have that luxury because these two are the only available HQs for Kabal and Cult armies, respectively (outside of Drazhar, who somehow manages to be even worse). A Kabal Battalion has to include two of the useless bastards.
Holy gak, I take back my suggestion of Spore Mines, I think you'd be better off WITH the equiv points of mines than those hq options!
I knew they were bad, but with no local DE players I've not faced any in 8th... Damn! It makes me feel better about my Tervigon!
Not Online!!! wrote: Fw malcador, the bigger leman russ that ain't even as capable as a leman but costs more then double of it.
Vanquishers.
Raptors.
Raptors in host raptoral can have a 7 inch charge that doesn't allow overwatch. In black legion they can get on demand +1 attack and fight twice if they are korn with reroll hits. Realistically that can do a ton of damage. Most importantly though. They can stop overwatch for the rest of your army...Think...korn bezerkers trying to charge a tau sept battle line. That is an auto win condition.
Vanquishers are still better than basically every space marine tank option. They just are worse than battle cannons.
not sure what a malcadore is. Did you mean macharius heavy tank? The model with steal behemoth and 22 wounds with a 2d6d6 damage battle cannon? Yeah it's not great but it is better than a LR. It is tougher and has much higher damage potential. You can get it hitting on 3's a number of ways. It can shoot and fall back - it can also shoot while locked in combat. LR gets shut off by a Gretchen.
No Raptors CAN NOT IGNORE OVERWATCH, even in raptorial host. They also can't get on demand +1 attack for beeing BL. I seriously doubt you have read vigilus Ablaze at this point. what you get is 2" more charge range if you are within 6 " of your warlord.
A vnquisher has 2 shots on BS 4+ that do less damage on average than a BC. But it pays more. Come again?
A MAlcador is this thing: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-BE/Malcador-with-Battle-Cannon It has a single BC, it costs baseline 190 without the BC. It has 4 W more then a Leman russ. It can't shoot twice, it has not steel behemoth. In a word. It's gak at the pricepoint of a Landraider, infact i would probably chose a landraider of any variation before i would chose a malcador ruleswise.
Sorry ment warptalons.
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vipoid wrote: I'll nominate the DEHQs - especially the Archon and Succubus.
Archons: - Vastly overcosted for what they bring (they're about on par with a Canoness, yet cost ~25pts more).
- Gimmicky, unreliable save and no longer has any option to swap it out for a basic 4++.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space and stupid minimum squad sizes.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on a special weapon and a heavy weapon.
- Very poor melee ability, doubly so for an HQ that just lost it's only decent shooting weapon.
- Passable ranged ability . . . but only if you use an Index (i.e. non-Codex) option.
- 0 synergy with his own subfaction.
- 0 ability to buff other subfactions.
- Worthless aura that's completely incompatible with the entire playstyle of DE.
- As mentioned above, the Archon has no mobility option outside of a transport. However, his aura isn't allowed to extend outside of a transport.
- What's more, other Kabal units want to be in transports as well, and even if the Archon is on foot his aura still isn't allowed to affect units inside nearby transports.
- The Archon's aura doesn't even affect units inside his own transport.
- Hell, the Archon can't even buff *himself* when inside a transport. This, I remind you, from the leader of a faction that is supposed to have trained for millennia in the art of fighting from transports. - Even outside of a transport, the Archon's aura is completely useless on his own Court.
Succubi: - Dedicated melee HQ... yet has the fewest attacks of our HQs. - In spite of being a melee HQ, her melee presence is laughably bad - not least because of how horrendously awful the Glaive is. Sorry but 4 attacks at S5 AP-3 with a miserably 1 damage is not scaring anyone. And to make matters worse, GW thought this weapon so unbelievably powerful that it needed a -1 to hit. That's how much they hate the idea of our HQs being even remotely good.
- Hope you're playing Red Grief so that you can actually access the only worthwhile melee weapon for your melee HQ. Also, just to reiterate this point, I think it says something about the quality of our melee weapons that a Power Fist is worthy of being an artefact.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on at least one special weapon.
- Piddling aura.
- As with the Archon, has no ability to buff units outside of her subfaction.
- However, she is also unable to buff some units within her subfaction - namely Beasts (incidentally, the only fast unit she could potentially keep up with).
- Because of aforementioned lack of mobility, isn't able to keep up with Hellions or Reavers to buff them.
And what makes these so much worse is that they're mandatory. For as godawful as Land Raiders are, Marine players at least have the option of ignoring them entirely. DE players don't have that luxury because these two are the only available HQs for Kabal and Cult armies, respectively (outside of Drazhar, who somehow manages to be even worse). A Kabal Battalion has to include two of the useless bastards.
I don't have this problem with my archons. They tend to pull well above their weight and since I play flayed skull they don't even need their buff - they just function as tarpit units. 2++ save can tarpit really well. Plus my warlord arhcon becomes a superbeast with soultraps and WL trait and jihn blade.
So contenders for "Worst in game", even with the increased stipulations (So Imperial, nothing FW that's notably overpriced, nothing from Index armies, nothing cheap, etc):
-Drop Pod
-Vindicator
-Deathstrikes
-Malcador
-Macharius
-Defense Line
I think Deathstrikes or the Defense Line are winning. Unsure which.
Bharring wrote: So contenders for "Worst in game", even with the increased stipulations (So Imperial, nothing FW that's notably overpriced, nothing from Index armies, nothing cheap, etc):
-Drop Pod
-Vindicator
-Deathstrikes
-Malcador
-Macharius
-Defense Line
I think Deathstrikes or the Defense Line are winning. Unsure which.
Drop Pod and Vindicator at least bring some solid niche use cases. I can't think of a use for Deathstrikes outside of extremely forced scenarios.
Altough they dropped in price i am unsure where you fond that, or am i missing something.
3d3 mortal wound splash damage stratagem....
Ahh... missed that.
Altough meh, i can get a sorcerer for the sme points that does the same and more.
Ohh and i forgot the best thing to add to the list: Eldar corsairs, literally illegal to field now thanks to the battlebrothers FAQ. in matched play.
Being illegal basically makes them ineligible for this list. Technically a psyker can cast infernal gateway. However. Infernal gateway will alway target the closest MODEL and only does d3's. the vindi stratagem lets you pick a point and allows you to hit every unit withing 3" of that point for 3d3 on a 4+.
Altough they dropped in price i am unsure where you fond that, or am i missing something.
3d3 mortal wound splash damage stratagem....
Ahh... missed that.
Altough meh, i can get a sorcerer for the sme points that does the same and more.
Ohh and i forgot the best thing to add to the list: Eldar corsairs, literally illegal to field now thanks to the battlebrothers FAQ. in matched play.
Being illegal basically makes them ineligible for this list. Technically a psyker can cast infernal gateway. However. Infernal gateway will alway target the closest MODEL and only does d3's. the vindi stratagem lets you pick a point and allows you to hit every unit withing 3" of that point for 3d3 on a 4+.
They aren't illegal.
First, when BattleBrothers first came out, you could still take them in Aux slots. So you have 3 squads of poorly armed GEQ at 2000 points (because of 3CP). You could have more Land Raiders than Corsair squads...
More recently, though, in certain cases you can take a Corsairs detatchment with 0 HQ, although it gains 0 command benefits. So you're taking poorly armed GEQ and getting no CP from it.
Having no legal way to be fielded would shoot a unit to the *top* of the 'epitome of bad' list, if your metric is how much good a unit does for you. But there are legal ways to field Corsairs. They're just terrible.
That said, them being discounted because they're so bad - like a lot of other options - kinda makes this conversation silly.
Altough they dropped in price i am unsure where you fond that, or am i missing something.
3d3 mortal wound splash damage stratagem....
Ahh... missed that.
Altough meh, i can get a sorcerer for the sme points that does the same and more.
Ohh and i forgot the best thing to add to the list: Eldar corsairs, literally illegal to field now thanks to the battlebrothers FAQ. in matched play.
Being illegal basically makes them ineligible for this list. Technically a psyker can cast infernal gateway. However. Infernal gateway will alway target the closest MODEL and only does d3's. the vindi stratagem lets you pick a point and allows you to hit every unit withing 3" of that point for 3d3 on a 4+.
They aren't illegal.
First, when BattleBrothers first came out, you could still take them in Aux slots. So you have 3 squads of poorly armed GEQ at 2000 points (because of 3CP). You could have more Land Raiders than Corsair squads...
More recently, though, in certain cases you can take a Corsairs detatchment with 0 HQ, although it gains 0 command benefits. So you're taking poorly armed GEQ and getting no CP from it.
Having no legal way to be fielded would shoot a unit to the *top* of the 'epitome of bad' list, if your metric is how much good a unit does for you. But there are legal ways to field Corsairs. They're just terrible.
That said, them being discounted because they're so bad - like a lot of other options - kinda makes this conversation silly.
I think it's more along the lines of units not to be taken seriously.
Stormtalons imao are far worst than a LR. Almost 195 points for just an assault canon and 2 las canons in a platform that get vaporized with bolter fire or any medium strength weapon.
Is a horrible choice for any imperium army and, internal and external, really poorly balanced.
Having read the above poster's comment, would you care to name the page on which I can find an Archon who can take a jetbike or whose aura works into/out of transports?
Lucky you. My Archons could cost 40pts and I still couldn't name a game where one pulled his weight.
Xenomancers wrote: and since I play flayed skull they don't even need their buff
What about those of us who don't play Flayed Skull? or who would like to reroll 1s on weapons other than Splinter Rifles?
Xenomancers wrote: they just function as tarpit units. 2++ save can tarpit really well.
I have to disagree entirely on this point. A T3 model who relies on a 2++ is about as unreliable a tarpit as you can get. Maybe if you rolled all the saves together, but since you're forced to roll them one at a time it really doesn't take much for the field to fail and then the Archon's number is up.
Xenomancers wrote: Plus my warlord arhcon becomes a superbeast with soultraps and WL trait and jihn blade.
And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?
And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?
i mean CSM suffer from the same thing. Have the correct combination and the HQ's are great. (lord discordant f.e)
have not the correct combination and whoops that were 160 pts dead in one shooting phase and a killed warlord.
Frankly it is bad design, because if a unit is not worth it's points without the tagged on stuff then why the feth do the rest of the subfactions have to pay for THAT specific combination in the first place?
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?
Like smashcaptains, chainlords, etc? It's not great but I suppose it does at least limit you to one monsterously buffed-up HQ at a time.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?
Like smashcaptains, chainlords, etc? It's not great but I suppose it does at least limit you to one monsterously buffed-up HQ at a time.
(IF it weren't for council of traitors, Field commanders, etc?)
And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?
i mean CSM suffer from the same thing. Have the correct combination and the HQ's are great. (lord discordant f.e)
have not the correct combination and whoops that were 160 pts dead in one shooting phase and a killed warlord.
Frankly it is bad design, because if a unit is not worth it's points without the taked on stuff then why the feth do the rest of the subfactions have to pay for THAT specific combination in the first place?
I don't disagree.
There's also the obvious issue that you're generally limited in artefacts and warlord traits.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?
Like smashcaptains, chainlords, etc? It's not great but I suppose it does at least limit you to one monsterously buffed-up HQ at a time.
Except that this is a false equivalence. A fully decked-out Archon is not 'monstrously buffed'. On average he'll kill about 4 Space Marines on the charge. That's it. That's the power of a fully-kitted DEHQ.
In contrast, a fully-kitted Smashcaptain is capable of going toe-to-toe with Imperial Knights.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Except that this is a false equivalence. A fully decked-out Archon is not 'monstrously buffed'. On average he'll kill about 4 Space Marines on the charge. That's it. That's the power of a fully-kitted DEHQ.
That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.
But it was more a comment on the gap between basic and geared up HQs in many armies. Not everyone gets as big a jump as others but the whole trait/relic/stratagem combo character is common to most factions.
A.T. wrote: That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.
Out of interest, which HQ is that?
A.T. wrote: But it was more a comment on the gap between basic and geared up HQs in many armies. Not everyone gets as big a jump as others but the whole trait/relic/stratagem combo character is common to most factions.
But that wasn't my point.
I get that there's always going to be a difference between HQs with relics/Warlord Traits and HQs without.
My complaint is with HQs that need Relics and Warlord Traits just to be functional.
A.T. wrote: That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.
Out of interest, which HQ is that?
Sororitas canoness with the relic power sword and close combat <order> trait. 5x S6 attacks on the charge, 4x S5 attacks otherwise. T3 3+/4++. Puts out more damage than the named option (Celestine), just lacks mobility. Cheap as chips though.
A.T. wrote: That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.
Out of interest, which HQ is that?
Sororitas canoness with the relic power sword and close combat <order> trait. 5x S6 attacks on the charge, 4x S5 attacks otherwise. T3 3+/4++. Puts out more damage than the named option (Celestine), just lacks mobility. Cheap as chips though.
Ah. Straight Damage 3 on that sword is really nice, though,
I have to say, if Archons were as cheap as Canonesses, I'd probably have fewer complaints.
Its weapons ALONE (3 twin lascannons) collectively cost 120 pts, bringing the unit cost above 200 (don't remember the base cost). And since it has no rule for firing heavy weapons without penalty after moving, it means that your already middling BS of 4+ gets reduced for 5+ unless you hover. And that's without factoring in any BS loss from damage.
Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.
Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.
It does feel like GW are very much gearing Dark Eldar towards using the multiple-patrols stratagem. You're probably avoiding Rule Of 3 with that, but then you're falling foul of the other 'GW Suggestion taken as a Hard Rule' involving number of detachments...
Their triple-Patrol should have been defined as a detatchment with 3 Patrol slots. That would have made it "work" with the 3-detatchement limit - basically a Brigade replacement, and you can still take 2 other detatchements.
Bharring wrote: Their triple-Patrol should have been defined as a detatchment with 3 Patrol slots. That would have made it "work" with the 3-detatchement limit - basically a Brigade replacement, and you can still take 2 other detatchements.
At 2k points, 3xPatrol just isn't enough.
NONONONONO, That will be a special detachment in the next VIgilus book for another 35£.
It's like with CA, it's in essence a bloody mandatory balance patch YOU PAY FOR.
A.T. wrote: That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.
Out of interest, which HQ is that?
Sororitas canoness with the relic power sword and close combat <order> trait. 5x S6 attacks on the charge, 4x S5 attacks otherwise. T3 3+/4++. Puts out more damage than the named option (Celestine), just lacks mobility. Cheap as chips though.
Ah. Straight Damage 3 on that sword is really nice, though,
I have to say, if Archons were as cheap as Canonesses, I'd probably have fewer complaints.
Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.
Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.
Not Online!!! wrote: Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.
To be fair, if your 5 wound model (with a 2++ no less) is stomped by something with only 3 single-damage attacks then it's just not your day.
Not Online!!! wrote: Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.
To be fair, if your 5 wound model (with a 2++ no less) is stomped by something with only 3 single-damage attacks then it's just not your day.
weell he was slowed enough to throw him into a unit of 20 militia, which then after three rounds of combat broke his shield and then the commander came in and, made him into filet.
Not Online!!! wrote: Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.
To be fair, if your 5 wound model (with a 2++ no less) is stomped by something with only 3 single-damage attacks then it's just not your day.
Isn't the 2++ only for the first unsaved wound?
While the Archon should win that fight, how is that much of a tarpit? A single 40-pt Infantry squad will outtank the Archon easily.
Per point, a T3 model with 1 2++ W and 4 other W is nowhere close to as good a tarpit as a Land Raider.
Sometimes dice are fickle. In previous editions, I've had Asurman with reroll saves-of-1 (so T4 2+ rerollable) die to Sternguard overwatch. And nowhere close to a full squad at that. Sometimes, things happen.
The Archon is bad though. Semi-decent in CC for the points, but that's the only upside. Can't get there. Bad shooting. Aura is hard to use. Gets chumped by most HQs.
Not all factions have SM-quality HQs, but most have ways of being useful. Archons, not so much.
-Guardsman- wrote: Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.
Dracons would be nice (though I'd also like to see Archon's fixed so that they're actually worth their current cost). Hell, more options in general would be nice. I hate that all our subfactions are basically stuck with a single HQ choice each.
Given that Scourges, Mandrakes and Incubi have been made into pseudo-mercenaries (who don't belong to any of the subfactions), it would be nice if they got HQs of their own. That would give us 'wild card' HQs who can be used as primary or secondary HQs with any of the subfactions.
JNAProductions wrote: Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.
To be honest, I'd really like to see Shadowfields scrapped entirely. Their current rules feel completely out of place.
Something like a 5++ (or maybe 4++) with -1 to hit would seem a lot more logical. Now you've got the similarities with Venoms and Mandrakes (who both derive their defences from similar means), the save doesn't need to be lost when failed, the stupid 'can never be rerolled even in an edition based around rerolls' rule can be scrapped, and you no longer have the frustration of either failing a 2++ save immediately or playing against an Archon who never seems to fail his 2++ save. Oh, one other benefit, perhaps we could finally stop adding an arbitrary 25pts to his price tag to justify a defence that hasn't been good since 3rd?
Anyway, in terms of other bad units, I'll nominate the Necron Destroyer Lord. To be honest, I don't think he's as bad as some of the other units on this list, he's more an example of absolutely baffling design.
So, we have an expensive character who is very much focused on melee . . . but who only has WS3+. Seems a bit odd. But stranger still is his aura. As already mentioned he's only equipped for melee, yet his aura is only capable of buffing ranged attacks. Not only that but it's only capable of buffing the ranged attacks of 2 units - with with medium-long range weapons, and neither of which wants to be anywhere near combat.
Not nearly as bad as some other contenders here but definitely a shining example of nonsensical design.
they are a Beatstick in an army that has way better beatsticks, in the same point range.
AND their aura is, well, Daemon engines are meh in melee or too fast for them and the venomcrawler is bad and the only thing that would profit from the additional S.
Also the other units (possesd) beyond having just bad sculpts are also overpriced to the point you can consider all other Marine units fieldable.
they are a Beatstick in an army that has way better beatsticks, in the same point range.
AND their aura is, well, Daemon engines are meh in melee or too fast for them and the venomcrawler is bad and the only thing that would profit from the additional S.
Also the other units (possesd) beyond having just bad sculpts are also overpriced to the point you can consider all other Marine units fieldable.
I'm not a Chaos player but I'm surprised Greater Possessed don't have some sort of mutation ability.
Seems like they'd at least be more fun if they could do stuff like grow wings for a turn.
JNAProductions wrote: Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.
I don't mind it so much, inconvenient as it may be, because it feels somehow very fitting for Drukhari. All or nothing.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Given that Scourges, Mandrakes and Incubi have been made into pseudo-mercenaries (who don't belong to any of the subfactions), it would be nice if they got HQs of their own. That would give us 'wild card' HQs who can be used as primary or secondary HQs with any of the subfactions.
Yessss, I've been thinking that for a while. And the Scourge HQ should be a dark lance-toting sniper, with the ability to target a character who isn't the closest unit.
In terms of useless units, the Leman Russ Eradicator has become obsolete in 8th Edition, now that the "ignores cover" rule can essentially be replaced by an extra point of AP. Except for dealing with those rare units that get +2 cover save, a battle cannon generally does a better job.
-Guardsman- wrote: Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.
Dracons would be nice (though I'd also like to see Archon's fixed so that they're actually worth their current cost). Hell, more options in general would be nice. I hate that all our subfactions are basically stuck with a single HQ choice each.
Given that Scourges, Mandrakes and Incubi have been made into pseudo-mercenaries (who don't belong to any of the subfactions), it would be nice if they got HQs of their own. That would give us 'wild card' HQs who can be used as primary or secondary HQs with any of the subfactions.
JNAProductions wrote: Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.
To be honest, I'd really like to see Shadowfields scrapped entirely. Their current rules feel completely out of place.
Something like a 5++ (or maybe 4++) with -1 to hit would seem a lot more logical. Now you've got the similarities with Venoms and Mandrakes (who both derive their defences from similar means), the save doesn't need to be lost when failed, the stupid 'can never be rerolled even in an edition based around rerolls' rule can be scrapped, and you no longer have the frustration of either failing a 2++ save immediately or playing against an Archon who never seems to fail his 2++ save. Oh, one other benefit, perhaps we could finally stop adding an arbitrary 25pts to his price tag to justify a defence that hasn't been good since 3rd?
Anyway, in terms of other bad units, I'll nominate the Necron Destroyer Lord. To be honest, I don't think he's as bad as some of the other units on this list, he's more an example of absolutely baffling design.
So, we have an expensive character who is very much focused on melee . . . but who only has WS3+. Seems a bit odd. But stranger still is his aura. As already mentioned he's only equipped for melee, yet his aura is only capable of buffing ranged attacks. Not only that but it's only capable of buffing the ranged attacks of 2 units - with with medium-long range weapons, and neither of which wants to be anywhere near combat.
Not nearly as bad as some other contenders here but definitely a shining example of nonsensical design.
I'll take the Ghetto Celestine Destroyer Lord over several different HQ units any day.
they are a Beatstick in an army that has way better beatsticks, in the same point range.
AND their aura is, well, Daemon engines are meh in melee or too fast for them and the venomcrawler is bad and the only thing that would profit from the additional S.
Also the other units (possesd) beyond having just bad sculpts are also overpriced to the point you can consider all other Marine units fieldable.
I'm not a Chaos player but I'm surprised Greater Possessed don't have some sort of mutation ability.
Seems like they'd at least be more fun if they could do stuff like grow wings for a turn.
Bharring wrote: Is the Land Raider "The epitome of bad". Is it the perfectly worst choice in the entire game.
The Executioner thread is being flooded with claims that it's the Land Raider, and that seems exaggerated to me.
Things I think of as worse:
-Drop Pods (as now - I was called out for arguing they would be undercosted when someone suggested 0ppm for them, so I mean as currently pointed.)
-Any Titan
-Tantaulous
-FW Greater Demons (Sir Vowels-For-name, not "Fateweaver")
-Assault Marines
-Stompa
-Gorka/Morkanaught
-Squiggoths
-Vampyr Hunter/Raider
-Corsairs (foot, jetpack, or bike)
In an effort to declutter the Executioner thread, lets hash this out here.
A grey Knight army sporting 2x land raiders won the GT in Australia a couple months ago.
Bharring wrote: Is the Land Raider "The epitome of bad". Is it the perfectly worst choice in the entire game.
The Executioner thread is being flooded with claims that it's the Land Raider, and that seems exaggerated to me.
Things I think of as worse:
-Drop Pods (as now - I was called out for arguing they would be undercosted when someone suggested 0ppm for them, so I mean as currently pointed.)
-Any Titan
-Tantaulous
-FW Greater Demons (Sir Vowels-For-name, not "Fateweaver")
-Assault Marines
-Stompa
-Gorka/Morkanaught
-Squiggoths
-Vampyr Hunter/Raider
-Corsairs (foot, jetpack, or bike)
In an effort to declutter the Executioner thread, lets hash this out here.
A grey Knight army sporting 2x land raiders won the GT in Australia a couple months ago.
After their 100 points drop they are reasonably average. With 5+FNP on it it is quite chunky and has reasonable firepower with the suncannon build. By no means amazing but better than a knight in certain situations. Where having decent shooting and a 5++ in melle are what you are looking for. It also can have the infamous -1 to hit aloitoc trait.
More expensive than most knights, lower invulnerable, need couple of psychers to babysit it and no good stratagems.
It`s not the worst units in the game, but certainly is in the top places if we exclude FWCWE units who no one even talks about.
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vipoid wrote: I'll nominate the DEHQs - especially the Archon and Succubus.
Archons: - Vastly overcosted for what they bring (they're about on par with a Canoness, yet cost ~25pts more).
- Gimmicky, unreliable save and no longer has any option to swap it out for a basic 4++.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space and stupid minimum squad sizes.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on a special weapon and a heavy weapon.
- Very poor melee ability, doubly so for an HQ that just lost it's only decent shooting weapon.
- Passable ranged ability . . . but only if you use an Index (i.e. non-Codex) option.
- 0 synergy with his own subfaction.
- 0 ability to buff other subfactions.
- Worthless aura that's completely incompatible with the entire playstyle of DE.
- As mentioned above, the Archon has no mobility option outside of a transport. However, his aura isn't allowed to extend outside of a transport.
- What's more, other Kabal units want to be in transports as well, and even if the Archon is on foot his aura still isn't allowed to affect units inside nearby transports.
- The Archon's aura doesn't even affect units inside his own transport.
- Hell, the Archon can't even buff *himself* when inside a transport. This, I remind you, from the leader of a faction that is supposed to have trained for millennia in the art of fighting from transports. - Even outside of a transport, the Archon's aura is completely useless on his own Court.
Succubi: - Dedicated melee HQ... yet has the fewest attacks of our HQs. - In spite of being a melee HQ, her melee presence is laughably bad - not least because of how horrendously awful the Glaive is. Sorry but 4 attacks at S5 AP-3 with a miserably 1 damage is not scaring anyone. And to make matters worse, GW thought this weapon so unbelievably powerful that it needed a -1 to hit. That's how much they hate the idea of our HQs being even remotely good.
- Hope you're playing Red Grief so that you can actually access the only worthwhile melee weapon for your melee HQ. Also, just to reiterate this point, I think it says something about the quality of our melee weapons that a Power Fist is worthy of being an artefact.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on at least one special weapon.
- Piddling aura.
- As with the Archon, has no ability to buff units outside of her subfaction.
- However, she is also unable to buff some units within her subfaction - namely Beasts (incidentally, the only fast unit she could potentially keep up with).
- Because of aforementioned lack of mobility, isn't able to keep up with Hellions or Reavers to buff them.
And what makes these so much worse is that they're mandatory. For as godawful as Land Raiders are, Marine players at least have the option of ignoring them entirely. DE players don't have that luxury because these two are the only available HQs for Kabal and Cult armies, respectively (outside of Drazhar, who somehow manages to be even worse). A Kabal Battalion has to include two of the useless bastards.
You must be joking, Archon and Succubi are one of the most point effiecient HQs in aeldar faction.
Look at the phoenix lords, all of them are 2-3 times more expensive with lower aura benefits and fighting power.
They are slow but Archon buffing Ravagers is pretty good and it had really good melee relic if you want fighting Archon.
Succubus is maybe the cheapest aeldar HQ for only 50 pts.
Yea, aeldar HQs really need some buffs, to be on par with non-aeldar factions but compare them with the poor phoenix lords:
1. Asurman -175 pts give only 6 inch 5++ aura to aspects. 4++ range and 3++ melee.
2. Baharoth -110 pts give +1 LD to aspect or 2 LD to swooping hawks. No invul save
3. Fuegan - 140 pts, 6`inch reroll 1 on fire dragons. No invul
4. Jin Zar - 115 pts, 6 inch aura always fight first for banshees. No invul.
5. Karandras - 125 pts, 6 inch aura scorpions extra attack on 6+. No invul
6. Maugan RA - 140 pts, 6 inch aura reroll 1 for reapers. No invul.
7. Irrilyth - 160 pts 18 inch morale debuff aura. No invul
Led`s add and our super cool sniper, who was always out shinned, even more after they made assassins total BS:
8. Illic - 80 pts 5+ save when not in cover !!! No invul
Marin wrote: You must be joking, Archon and Succubi are one of the most point effiecient HQs in aeldar faction.
[Citation needed.]
You do understand that "cheap" does not equate to "efficient", right? Though even then I'm not sure you could call the Archon 'cheap' with a straight face. The Succubus, sure. But the Archon, not so much. Especially when you stop to look at what you're actually getting for that price.
Marin wrote: Look at the phoenix lords, all of them are 2-3 times more expensive with lower aura benefits and fighting power.
Phoenix Lords are not your base HQs. If you don't want to use them, you can fall back on Farseers, Jetbike Farseers, Autarchs, Winged Autarchs, Warp-Spider Autarchs, Jetbike Autarchs, Warlocks, Jetbike Warlocks, Warlock Conclaves, Jetbike Warlock Conclaves, Spiritseers etc.
If I don't like Archons or Succubi (or if I want to mix things up with a second HQ) I have 0 options other than special characters. I don't even have the option to give them Wings or Jetbikes. These are the only HQs I can ever have in an army.
Hence, you'll forgive me if I'm lacking in sympathy because some of your Phoenix Lords (a group of special characters who are equal in number to my entire HQ section) aren't quite to you tastes. I guess you'll just have to cope with having one of the best Psyker HQs in the entire game.
If you want to compare the Phoenix Lords to anything, feel free to give Drazhar a look. Go ahead, I'll wait.
All that being said, I've no clue where you're even getting 'lower aura and fighting power'. The Archon and Succubus are also incredibly limited in their auras. The Succubus can technically buff multiple units, but since all of them bar Wyches completely outpace her, she's basically limited to buffing Wyches. Similarly, the Archon can't buff units in, into, or out of transports (which is the only place Kabalites ever want to be); and his aura is redundant on his own Court. So the only thing he can buff in any meaningful way is Ravagers.
As for fighting ability:
- Asurmen has vastly better melee ability
- Baharroth likewise has much better melee, plus he flies (a power entirely unavailable to the Archon or Succubus)
- Fuegan hits like a truck
- Jain Zar is better than either (and can also Advance and Charge)
- Karandras' base weapon is a Power Fist with no penalty to hit. The Succubus literally has to take a Relic to get the equivalent, and that's before you factor in Karandras' other bonuses.
- Even Maugan Ra has better melee.
They are slow but Archon buffing Ravagers is pretty good and it had really good melee relic if you want fighting Archon.
First off, do you not see anything incongruous about a melee HQ being so worthless that his only possible role is sitting at the back of the field to buff the DE equivalent of artillery?
Also, let's say I'm taking a Kabal Battalion. Okay, my first Archon is showing off his melee prowess by buffing Ravagers. What's the second Archon buffing? Because, unlike your army, I can't just take a different HQ.
With regard to melee weapons, you do realise that a biker Autarch has a better melee weapon than the Djin Blade Archon without even needing to take a Relic, right? Plus, you know, a way to reliably get into melee.
Also, you'll forgive me if I don't find "+2 attacks on a mediocre weapon" to be a "good melee relic". The only reason it looks even remotely good is because the bar for DE weapons is so low that it's intruding on Satan's wine cellar.
Succubus is maybe the cheapest aeldar HQ for only 50 pts.
Tell you what, I'll trade you the Succubus for the Farseer. I mean, the Farseer is more than twice the price of a Succubus so clearly you'll want the cheaper of the two because apparently "cheaper" always equates to "better". Meanwhile, I'll take the plunge and suffer having to have a Farseer in my DE army. That sound fair?
You do understand that "cheap" does not equate to "efficient", right? Though even then I'm not sure you could call the Archon 'cheap' with a straight face. The Succubus, sure. But the Archon, not so much. Especially when you stop to look at what you're actually getting for that price.
I`m getting better version of Autarch on foot, that have decent melee and invul save. Yes, Autarch can take reaper luncher, but it`s index option that is for instance not allowed in ETC.
Phoenix Lords are not your base HQs. If you don't want to use them, you can fall back on Farseers, Jetbike Farseers, Autarchs, Winged Autarchs, Warp-Spider Autarchs, Jetbike Autarchs, Warlocks, Jetbike Warlocks, Warlock Conclaves, Jetbike Warlock Conclaves, Spiritseers etc.
The topic is worse that Land Raider, i showed you some HQ that are worst than Archon and Saccumbus, because i think you are just whining without real reason.
Hence, you'll forgive me if I'm lacking in sympathy because some of your Phoenix Lords (a group of special characters who are equal in number to my entire HQ section) aren't quite to you tastes. I guess you'll just have to cope with having one of the best Psyker HQs in the entire game.
I don`t search for any sympathy, every faction need to have different strength and weak points. Except the Draznar all your HQ are good, even Draznar is good, but it`s overpriced.
Should Archon be cheaper ? Maybe, maybe not, game designers will decide that. Is Archon bad as you claim ? Certainly no, he is good HQ.
First off, do you not see anything incongruous about a melee HQ being so worthless that his only possible role is sitting at the back of the field to buff the DE equivalent of artillery?
Also, let's say I'm taking a Kabal Battalion. Okay, my first Archon is showing off his melee prowess by buffing Ravagers. What's the second Archon buffing? Because, unlike your army, I can't just take a different HQ.
With regard to melee weapons, you do realise that a biker Autarch has a better melee weapon than the Djin Blade Archon without even needing to take a Relic, right? Plus, you know, a way to reliably get into melee.
Sorry there is no full happiness in list building, that is the reason being cheap is useful for the list. I think Kebalites are on of the cheapest infantry squads you can take, so that really give you points for other stuff. DE have cheap open topped transports something that a lot of CWE players cry about. I guess everything wants what they don`t have.
Skyrunner have less attacks and his weapon is strong only during charge and i`ts still 30 pts more.
Tell you what, I'll trade you the Succubus for the Farseer. I mean, the Farseer is more than twice the price of a Succubus so clearly you'll want the cheaper of the two because apparently "cheaper" always equates to "better". Meanwhile, I'll take the plunge and suffer having to have a Farseer in my DE army. That sound fair?
It`s not fair for you, what will you do with HQ that can`t buff your units, don`t have stategems and have 0 fighting power ? I see you think farseer will come with the powers and the stratagems, sorry but they are in different book.
Joke aside you want eldar pshychics powers sorry, but that don`t make your HQ choices bad
I`m getting better version of Autarch on foot, that have decent melee and invul save.
How are either of them better than the Autarch?
The Autarch has a much better melee weapon (plus far more ranged options if you use the Index), a vastly better aura, and a transport where you can actually fit him in with a squad.
Also, I'd trade the Archon's Shadowfield for the Autarch's 4++ in a heartbeat.
The topic is worse that Land Raider, i showed you some HQ that are worst than Archon and Saccumbus, because i think you are just whining without real reason.
Except that you nothing you said was a rebuttal to any of the issues I raised.
All you said was 'But muh Phoenix Lords'.
Frankly, you are the one who seems to be whining. If you want to make a case that Phoenix Lords are bad, go nuts. I fail to see, however, why Phoenix Lords being bad somehow makes the terrible DEHQs suddenly good.
I don`t search for any sympathy, every faction need to have different strength and weak points. Except the Draznar all your HQ are good, even Draznar is good, but it`s overpriced.
Again, you have yet to provide a shred of evidence for this.
I've provided a whole list of issues with DEHQs, and all I've seen from you is "nah, they're good rly".
Should Archon be cheaper ? Maybe, maybe not, game designers will decide that. Is Archon bad as you claim ? Certainly no, he is good HQ.
Should []the Phoenix Lords] be cheaper ? Maybe, maybe not, game designers will decide that. Are the [Phoenix Lords] bad as you claim ? Certainly no, they are good HQ.
See, when you provide 0 evidence, I can just turn your own argument round on you.
Hell, by this logic, every unit in the game is great because I can just write it and apparently that makes it true.
Who needs logic, reason or evidence when we can just provide circular-reasoning.
Skyrunner have less attacks and his weapon is strong only during charge and i`ts still 30 pts more.
I would gladly give up an attack if it meant the ability to get a weapon that has (compared to the Huskblade) +2S on the charge, 2 better AP, more consistent damage, *and* a free shooting attack.
Also, do you know how much DE players would pay for a fething Jetbike HQ? Let alone one with an aura that can buff their entire army *and* has a chance of gaining them extra CPs.
Marin wrote: It`s not fair for you, what will you do with HQ that can`t buff your units, don`t have stategems and have 0 fighting power ?
That literally sums up my current HQ choices.
What you have utterly failed to understand is that I would gladly take a Farseer over my current HQs - even if its powers weren't changed to work on Drukhari units. That's how irredeemably abysmal the Archon and Succubus are.
Marin wrote: Joke aside you want eldar pshychics powers sorry, but that don`t make your HQ choices bad
I didn't say it did. I said the Succubus being cheaper than a Farseer didn't equate to it being in any way better or more efficient, but it seems you missed that point.
I was, however, kind enough to provide you with a whole list of reasons on why the Archon and Succubus are bad (none of which involved comparisons with Eldar HQs or a lack of psychic powers). Maybe you could have read that, rather than responding to a whole lot of claims that I didn't make in the first place?
They are basically characters without the CHARACTER keyword, so a 2/3 wound model that just gets shot.
If you put your Archon in a Venom, it can be worth it to give them a single, cheap Court of the Archon model (I use a Lhamaean, kitbashed from spare bits) to reduce the chances of your Archon being the one who bites the dust if the Venom gets destroyed. If the sacrificial model survives, it can help the Archon in other ways (e.g. absorb overwatch before the Archon charges into the fray).
Actually, possesed, we had greater possesed allready , might aswell also put down their smaller some chromosomes short version:
A possesed is a 20 pts model. (at one point even 22 ppm)
Now you'd asume that they would be generally be worth it.
they have B7 (ok i mean nice) and W2 (he basically a primaris?) and S5 (great)
the rest is literally tac marine statline.
They have ap-2 and D1 so allready worse then most weapon options chaos has.
They have d3 attacks. No buffs, no option for a special weapon, no ranged attack of any kind ( not even frag nades)
So on average you have a 20 pts model generating 2 attacks with S5 Ap-2 D1.
A khorne berzerker just with an axe for 3 pts less, gets baseline 4 attacks with his dublefighting ability allready. S6 ap -1 and is still cheaper. Infact with an additional Chainsword he has 4 attacks S6 ap-1 and 2 with S5.
Whilest beeing casually 3 pts cheaper / model.
Remembering the statement about the greater possesed, beeing also so bad because they fullfill a role allready better fullfilled by cheaper alternatives?
Yeah, this same instance, except the buyable unit sucks instead of just beeing decent.
Not Online!!! wrote: A khorne berzerker just with an axe for 3 pts less, gets baseline 4 attacks without his dublefighting ability allready. S6 ap -1 and is still cheaper. Infact with an additional Chainsword he has 4 attacks S6 ap-1 and 2 with S5.
Whilest beeing casually 3 pts cheaper / model.
Quote is unedited, except for removing excess words that aren't relevant.
They are basically characters without the CHARACTER keyword, so a 2/3 wound model that just gets shot.
I think that was done because (between the index and codex) they amended the Character rules so that one Character couldn't block LoS to a different Character. Hence, if they made the Court models Characters, they'd actually become useless as bodyguards (as opponents would be able to shoot the Archon even if other Court members were closer).
Unfortunately, this change doesn't appear to have been considered in any other aspect of the Court's design.
To be honest, the Court in general seems to need a rethink.
- Rerolling all hits when the Archon is around is nice . . . but it also makes the Archon's aura redundant on his own Court. Not only that, but they lose the ability if they're embarked on the same transport as the Archon (which is quite a blow for the shooty units like Medusae and Sslyth). Would be nice if they amended the ability to 'Within 6" of an Archon or embarked on the same transport as an Archon...'
(But then, I think the Archon's aura is also in dire need of a complete overhaul.)
Anyway, going back to the Court:
- Lhamaeans seem lacking in offence for assassins. Mortal Wounds on a 4+ is nice, but with so few attacks (just 2 apiece) they just can't threaten most elite units/characters in any meaningful way.
- Ur-Ghuls have the opposite problem - they have plenty of attacks (6 on the charge), but with S4, no AP and damage 1 they just can't do much with them.
- Sslyth are bodyguards units . . . for what is probably the most expendable HQ in the game. Put simply, there's just no point in taking them until Archons are actually worth protecting. They also lack PfP - so there's a very real chance that an Archon will charge into melee and accidentally leave one or more of his bodyguards behind.
- Medusae are . . . weird. They have a very short-ranged weapon (though it's not actually a flamer, so its overwatch is crap) but no melee ability. They only get rerolls if they're near the Archon and then only if they're not in a transport (so you're penalised for drive-by shooting). So you have a ranged unit that wants to be in easy charge range of an enemy and accompanied by a melee HQ . . . but which is also absolutely terrible in melee. And when you get right down to it, it's weapon isn't anything to write home about. If nothing else, it seems like it could have really benefited from Eyeburst being a Pistol weapon (at least then it wouldn't be completely screwed by melee).
All in all, I don't think they're the worst units around, and I've at least had fun with Lhamaeans in my (admittedly horribly uncompetitive) Poison Tongue army. However, it seems like far too little thought went into both their individual design and into the interaction with the HQ they're supposed to be accompanying.
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Runtherd. Here's a rundown.
35ppm, the same cost as a Flashgit, or 5 Boyz. For this it has the same statline as a Boy, with the exception of 3 more W and 1 more A. Its default CC weapon is a slightly better Choppa (+1S), and it's alternate weapon gives up +1A for -1AP. It can only have a Slugga for its Ranged weapon. And then it has to choose between 1 of 2 special rules options. It either gets what is essentially the "Breakin' Heads" ability of a Warboss, but only work on Gretchin, or it can give those Gretchin the ability to reroll 1s in the Fight Phase. And if you're sending Gretchin into CC, something has gone horribly wrong.
For Orkz, Gretchin only have two roles. 1) to eat damage via Grot Shields and 2) to generate CP. The Runtherd fails to assist its charges in either of these facets, which would be the only reason to take one to begin with. If it took an Elite slot (like it used to), it might have a use for filling Brigade requirements, but Runtherds are a slotless unit, so you don't even have THAT going for it. Really, the only useful thing about it is the Character Keyword it has, but with the 12" range on its Slugga, using that protection essentially means sitting 35 pts out of a fight.
Basically, anything a Runtherd can do, another unit can do better. It might not be the most expensive unit around, but being cheap AND bad is only useful when you can also fill out Detachment requirements.
flandarz wrote: I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Runtherd. Here's a rundown.
35ppm, the same cost as a Flashgit, or 5 Boyz. For this it has the same statline as a Boy, with the exception of 3 more W and 1 more A. Its default CC weapon is a slightly better Choppa (+1S), and it's alternate weapon gives up +1A for -1AP. It can only have a Slugga for its Ranged weapon. And then it has to choose between 1 of 2 special rules options. It either gets what is essentially the "Breakin' Heads" ability of a Warboss, but only work on Gretchin, or it can give those Gretchin the ability to reroll 1s in the Fight Phase. And if you're sending Gretchin into CC, something has gone horribly wrong.
For Orkz, Gretchin only have two roles. 1) to eat damage via Grot Shields and 2) to generate CP. The Runtherd fails to assist its charges in either of these facets, which would be the only reason to take one to begin with. If it took an Elite slot (like it used to), it might have a use for filling Brigade requirements, but Runtherds are a slotless unit, so you don't even have THAT going for it. Really, the only useful thing about it is the Character Keyword it has, but with the 12" range on its Slugga, using that protection essentially means sitting 35 pts out of a fight.
Basically, anything a Runtherd can do, another unit can do better. It might not be the most expensive unit around, but being cheap AND bad is only useful when you can also fill out Detachment requirements.
Did Runtherds used to just be the Grot equivalent of Sergeants, or am I remembering wrong?
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually, possesed, we had greater possesed allready , might aswell also put down their smaller some chromosomes short version:
A possesed is a 20 pts model. (at one point even 22 ppm)
Now you'd asume that they would be generally be worth it.
they have B7 (ok i mean nice) and W2 (he basically a primaris?) and S5 (great)
the rest is literally tac marine statline.
They have ap-2 and D1 so allready worse then most weapon options chaos has.
They have d3 attacks. No buffs, no option for a special weapon, no ranged attack of any kind ( not even frag nades)
So on average you have a 20 pts model generating 2 attacks with S5 Ap-2 D1.
A khorne berzerker just with an axe for 3 pts less, gets baseline 4 attacks with his dublefighting ability allready. S6 ap -1 and is still cheaper. Infact with an additional Chainsword he has 4 attacks S6 ap-1 and 2 with S5.
Whilest beeing casually 3 pts cheaper / model.
Remembering the statement about the greater possesed, beeing also so bad because they fullfill a role allready better fullfilled by cheaper alternatives?
Yeah, this same instance, except the buyable unit sucks instead of just beeing decent.
Possessed also have a 5++, access to all marks and are Daemons giving them the most possible Synergies in the game. Khorne Berzerkers can't be taken by Emperor's Children and Death Guard. I'm not saying Berzerkers are bad, it's just that Possessed have their niche and don't belong on a list of worst units in the game anymore. I'd rate Mutilators below Possessed, for example.
flandarz wrote: Warbikers aren't great, but they ain't really bad either. As long as you take enough so they don't get wiped. Flashgits are ok, but expensive.
As far as I know, Runtherds were basically the same as they are now, but they used to take an Elite slot.
Yeah, Runtherds' cost and inability to fill a slot really kills them as a unit. With their price tag you may as well get another unit of grots instead of taking him for morale protection. I feel like if they were able to affect all grot type units (aka Killa Kanz and Mek Gunz) in some sort of capacity that they would be much more interesting. Bring them down to 15 points with the squig, and make them 35 points if they take the whip which allows all GRETCHIN units within 3" to reroll hit rolls of one (in this instance I would probably up the cost of the relevant mek gunz (smashas mainly) so they don't become borderline broken with this combo. It would make Killa Kanz much more palatable as a unit.
I think it would even be a palatable unit choice if they just allowed it to fill an Elite slot, if only to make it easier to create a Brigade CP battery.
The Autarch has a much better melee weapon (plus far more ranged options if you use the Index), a vastly better aura, and a transport where you can actually fit him in with a squad.
Also, I'd trade the Archon's Shadowfield for the Autarch's 4++ in a heartbeat.
You can believe me or not, but Archon is much better in melee than normal Autarch. Your relics are really useful for melee and index options are not always allowed.
The aura is literally the some. 6 inch reroll to 1. Yes your effects only kebal, but if you play with archons you have them anyway.
Shadowfield give you chance to survive where Autarch will just die. What is annoying is archon 5+, if it was better without need of relics.
Except that you nothing you said was a rebuttal to any of the issues I raised.
All you said was 'But muh Phoenix Lords'.
Frankly, you are the one who seems to be whining. If you want to make a case that Phoenix Lords are bad, go nuts. I fail to see, however, why Phoenix Lords being bad somehow makes the terrible DEHQs suddenly good.
Subject: "The Epitome of Bad" - What's worse than the Land Raider.
I just showed you there are worst HQ choices than Autarch and Succumbus. You just missed the point, whatever.
Should []the Phoenix Lords] be cheaper ? Maybe, maybe not, game designers will decide that. Are the [Phoenix Lords] bad as you claim ? Certainly no, they are good HQ.
See, when you provide 0 evidence, I can just turn your own argument round on you.
Hell, by this logic, every unit in the game is great because I can just write it and apparently that makes it true.
Who needs logic, reason or evidence when we can just provide circular-reasoning.
Emotional and childish, i give you reasoning regardless if you accept them or not. Relative cheap HQs with decent buff auras and some melee potential. Maybe not the best HQs in the game, but certainly not the worst.
That literally sums up my current HQ choices.
What you have utterly failed to understand is that I would gladly take a Farseer over my current HQs - even if its powers weren't changed to work on Drukhari units. That's how irredeemably abysmal the Archon and Succubus are.
Sure man, whatever wave your flag.
Marin wrote:
Joke aside you want eldar pshychics powers sorry, but that don`t make your HQ choices bad
I didn't say it did. I said the Succubus being cheaper than a Farseer didn't equate to it being in any way better or more efficient, but it seems you missed that point.
I was, however, kind enough to provide you with a whole list of reasons on why the Archon and Succubus are bad (none of which involved comparisons with Eldar HQs or a lack of psychic powers). Maybe you could have read that, rather than responding to a whole lot of claims that I didn't make in the first place?
Having decent rules and being cheap is the definition of efficient units.
There is reason you don`t see armies of aspects with autarch, but you see often venoms,kebalites and archons or/and saccubi with wyches, because they are good.
What is important is to have synergy between the units and centrally your HQ have good synergy. Archon buffing ravagers with the relic for 3-5 turns is doing more than enough to be called efficient. Succubi supporting the wyches, is good way to increase your melee power for little pts and give you extra CP.
There are alot of good players using such combos, show me good player who is using 30-40 storm guardians and Autarchs.
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually, possesed, we had greater possesed allready , might aswell also put down their smaller some chromosomes short version:
A possesed is a 20 pts model. (at one point even 22 ppm)
Now you'd asume that they would be generally be worth it.
they have B7 (ok i mean nice) and W2 (he basically a primaris?) and S5 (great)
the rest is literally tac marine statline.
They have ap-2 and D1 so allready worse then most weapon options chaos has.
They have d3 attacks. No buffs, no option for a special weapon, no ranged attack of any kind ( not even frag nades)
So on average you have a 20 pts model generating 2 attacks with S5 Ap-2 D1.
A khorne berzerker just with an axe for 3 pts less, gets baseline 4 attacks with his dublefighting ability allready. S6 ap -1 and is still cheaper. Infact with an additional Chainsword he has 4 attacks S6 ap-1 and 2 with S5.
Whilest beeing casually 3 pts cheaper / model.
Remembering the statement about the greater possesed, beeing also so bad because they fullfill a role allready better fullfilled by cheaper alternatives?
Yeah, this same instance, except the buyable unit sucks instead of just beeing decent.
Possessed also have a 5++, access to all marks and are Daemons giving them the most possible Synergies in the game. Khorne Berzerkers can't be taken by Emperor's Children and Death Guard. I'm not saying Berzerkers are bad, it's just that Possessed have their niche and don't belong on a list of worst units in the game anymore. I'd rate Mutilators below Possessed, for example.
No, Mutilators atleast have ds, better weapons and more choppa.
Also important to note the daemon synergy, atleast the csm part, is gak.
Or in this case you have a melee unit that absolutely wants to fight twice so khorne is really the only option. (mostly because that also solves reliabilty issues.)
There is reason you don`t see armies of aspects with autarch, but you see often venoms,kebalites and archons or/and saccubi with wyches, because they are good.
It's not because they're good. It's because they are literally the only option. I often stick Yvraine in instead of a second character even if I'm not playing Ynnari, just to avoid a duff HQ. Venoms and Kabalites are great, but the Archon is a mandatory tax, the reason you don't see the Autarch is that there are better options. If the Autarch on foot was literally the only option, you'd see them all the time.
There is reason you don`t see armies of aspects with autarch, but you see often venoms,kebalites and archons or/and saccubi with wyches, because they are good.
It's not because they're good. It's because they are literally the only option. I often stick Yvraine in instead of a second character even if I'm not playing Ynnari, just to avoid a duff HQ. Venoms and Kabalites are great, but the Archon is a mandatory tax, the reason you don't see the Autarch is that there are better options. If the Autarch on foot was literally the only option, you'd see them all the time.
Absolutely. My Dark Eldar have 2 Archons. I'd gladly take 0 if I could. Same for the Succubus. They are a terrible mix of conflicting rules and equipment, hamstrung by the Rule of 3 and the weird design approach to the DE Codex. They can be made passable in melee, but are best at cutting down chaff, which is not a role DE need any help with from their characters. Against enemy characters or actually dangerous units they flail away fairly ineffectually and pray they don't roll a 1 for their save.
If a unit is literally the only option available to an army, you can't draw conclusions about how good it is based on how often it appears in those armies.
There is reason you don`t see armies of aspects with autarch, but you see often venoms,kebalites and archons or/and saccubi with wyches, because they are good.
It's not because they're good. It's because they are literally the only option. I often stick Yvraine in instead of a second character even if I'm not playing Ynnari, just to avoid a duff HQ. Venoms and Kabalites are great, but the Archon is a mandatory tax, the reason you don't see the Autarch is that there are better options. If the Autarch on foot was literally the only option, you'd see them all the time.
Absolutely. My Dark Eldar have 2 Archons. I'd gladly take 0 if I could. Same for the Succubus. They are a terrible mix of conflicting rules and equipment, hamstrung by the Rule of 3 and the weird design approach to the DE Codex. They can be made passable in melee, but are best at cutting down chaff, which is not a role DE need any help with from their characters. Against enemy characters or actually dangerous units they flail away fairly ineffectually and pray they don't roll a 1 for their save.
If a unit is literally the only option available to an army, you can't draw conclusions about how good it is based on how often it appears in those armies.
BUT BUT BUT, BECAUSE MY phoenix lords suck your HQ's all should!
CWE SUFFER don't you know?
(sarcasm aside, i know that the roster for CWE constantly shifts and that a shitton of models still need massive resculpts but i guess you understand this point now.)
There is reason you don`t see armies of aspects with autarch, but you see often venoms,kebalites and archons or/and saccubi with wyches, because they are good.
It's not because they're good. It's because they are literally the only option. I often stick Yvraine in instead of a second character even if I'm not playing Ynnari, just to avoid a duff HQ. Venoms and Kabalites are great, but the Archon is a mandatory tax, the reason you don't see the Autarch is that there are better options. If the Autarch on foot was literally the only option, you'd see them all the time.
It`s not DE only option, you can replace him with Ynnari characters or use Draznar who is somehow worse.
For triple Ravagers Archon is mandatory and that make him useful character and his tax is not the worst for what he provides DE army.
Absolutely. My Dark Eldar have 2 Archons. I'd gladly take 0 if I could. Same for the Succubus. They are a terrible mix of conflicting rules and equipment, hamstrung by the Rule of 3 and the weird design approach to the DE Codex. They can be made passable in melee, but are best at cutting down chaff, which is not a role DE need any help with from their characters. Against enemy characters or actually dangerous units they flail away fairly ineffectually and pray they don't roll a 1 for their save.
If a unit is literally the only option available to an army, you can't draw conclusions about how good it is based on how often it appears in those armies.
Repeating the some lie, Archon is not your only option.
BUT BUT BUT, BECAUSE MY phoenix lords suck your HQ's all should!
CWE SUFFER don't you know?
(sarcasm aside, i know that the roster for CWE constantly shifts and that a shitton of models still need massive resculpts but i guess you understand this point now.)
But, but, but my HQ can`t do everything perfectly BabyRage
Well, since you both started the argument and refuse to walk away, I guess we are.
Marin wrote: You can believe me or not, but Archon is much better in melee than normal Autarch.
It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of objective fact.
As for melee, I'll freely grant that the Archon is better than a Swooping Hawk or Warp Spider Autarch (as they can only take Power Swords), but worse than a foot Autarch or Jetbike Autarch (as, even with 1 fewer attack, their Star Glaive and Laser Lance are both far better than any of the Archon's weapons).
Marin wrote: Your relics are really useful for melee and index options are not always allowed.
I'm confused as to why you wrote "relics" (plural), as Archons have access to all of 1 melee weapon Relic.
In any case, I don't include relics in these comparisons because they're limited. If I take a Battalion then I have 2 Archons. Okay, I give the first the Djin Blade. What about the second? Unlike Autarchs, I can't fall back on Laser Lances or Star Glaives.
As for index options not being allowed, you realise that this hurts the Archon as much as the Autarch (probably moreso)? As their only worthwhile ranged weapon has been confined to the Index.
Lastly, even if you were correct, what you seem to have missed entirely is that melee is simply not a useful role for Archons. Even fully kitted with Relics and the like, they're still not great in melee, and their survivability rests entirely on getting lucky with Shadowfield. The thing is, they're supposed to be supporting a ranged subfaction. Kabal don't need a melee HQ they need a support HQ.
Which leads us to...
Marin wrote: The aura is literally the some. 6 inch reroll to 1. Yes your effects only kebal, but if you play with archons you have them anyway.
(emphasis mine)
A aura that only affects a small subgroup of an army is - by definition - not the same as one which affects the entire army.
For crying out loud, is it really that hard to admit that you're wrong about this?
Furthermore, you're deliberately choosing to ignore two further facts:
1) Dark Eldar (especially Kabal) make very heavy use of open-topped transports. Eldar have none. That means that DE will almost always be shooting from transports, whilst Eldar will have disembarked before opening fire. However, the Archon's aura can't actually affect units inside a transport - even if he's literally in the same transport. So, even if their auras were equal (which they're demonstrably not), the Archon's aura still has drastically less synergy not just with his army but with the subfaction he's supposed to be buffing.
2) Dark Eldar and Eldar both have many fast units. However, only the Autarch is allowed actual mobility options (Jetbikes, Wings etc.). Hence, the Autarch has no issue in applying his aura to wherever it's needed, as he can keep up with even the fastest units in his army. Meanwhile, the Archon has 0 mobility options and so simply cannot keep up with any of the fast elements in a DE army. At best you can put him in a transport . . . which nullifies his aura.
Are you seeing the issue yet?
Marin wrote: Shadowfield give you chance to survive where Autarch will just die. What is annoying is archon 5+, if it was better without need of relics.
But the same could be said for any Invulnerable save.
The difference is, they don't disappear the first time you fail them. What's more, unlike the Shadowfield, you can spend a CP to reroll a critical save that you failed.
Believe me, I would *love* the option of taking a 4++ instead of the Shadowfield. Hell, I'd take a 5++ over the sodding Shadowfield.
Subject: "The Epitome of Bad" - What's worse than the Land Raider.
I just showed you there are worst HQ choices than Autarch and Succumbus. You just missed the point, whatever.
Except that you failed to address one of the key points that made Archons and Succubi bad - that they're *mandatory*.
Again, if you think Phoenix Lords are good enough, you have page upon page of alternate HQs - including one of the best Psykers in the game.
If a DE player doesn't like Archons or Succubu, they have no alternatives. These are the only HQs we can take for Kabal and Cult, respectively.
I'm sorry if you find my pointing out the gaping holes in your reasoning to be "emotional and childish". How foolish of me to treat you like an adult capable of understanding ideas like 'logic' or 'arguments that make sense'.
Having decent rules and being cheap is the definition of efficient units.
A dictionary might disagree with you on that front, but whatever.
Even if we take you (frankly optimistic) definition, it still fails. Because DEHQs *don't* have decent rules (as I've spent the last 4 posts explaining to you), and only one of them is even cheap.
There is reason you don`t see armies of aspects with autarch, but you see often venoms,kebalites and archons or/and saccubi with wyches, because they are good.
Oh for the love of God.
Archons and Succubi are the only HQs available for Kabal and Cult armies. That's why you always see them. Not because they're good but because there are literally no alternatives.
I've said this multiple times now - including in my very first post (which you decided to take issue with). Maybe at some point it will actually penetrate your skull.
What is important is to have synergy between the units and centrally your HQ have good synergy.
Yes, a melee HQ leading a subfaction of ranged units that he is entirely unable to buff is the definition of 'synergy'.
Marin wrote: Archon buffing ravagers with the relic for 3-5 turns is doing more than enough to be called efficient.
So the unit whose melee prowess you were espousing moments ago is being used solely to buff backfield artillery. You want to maybe rethink your argument?
Also, once again, this is a single Archon with a Relic. What is the second Archon - lacking in both the buffing Relic and in Ravagers to buff - doing?
Hell, what is any Archon that lacks that buffing Relic doing?
Or what if - God forbid - a DE player wants to make use of an army sans Ravagers. What then is the Archon doing (with or without the buff relic)?
Marin wrote: Succubi supporting the wyches, is good way to increase your melee power for little pts and give you extra CP.
Where is this CP coming from exactly?
Also, when you say 'for little pts', are you including the cost of the transport needed to ferry the Succubus into battle? Which will, if anything, cost more than the Succubus herself.
Or is the Succubus sharing a transport with a Squad of Wyches and in doing so preventing them from taking 2 of their Wych Weapons? Thus reducing their melee power so that, rather than buffing them, her aura is merely compensating them for the lack of melee power that she caused.
Marin wrote: There are alot of good players using such combos, show me good player who is using 30-40 storm guardians and Autarchs.
*Gets out telescope*
Nope, those goalposts have now vanished over the horizon.
You seem to have entirely misunderstood not just the claim that I made but the claim that *you* made. My point about Storm Guardians was simply intended to point out the flaw in your logic. You said that DE couldn't have bad HQs because they had cheap troops, so I stated that Eldar having cheap troops (in the form of Storm Guardians) must - by your own logic - mean that Phoenix Lords aren't bad either.
But, as with everything else I've said here, it seems that went straight over your head.
Marin wrote: I`m out will not type to you any more.
I don't know why you bothered replying the first time. You've demonstrated that you have absolutely no interest in ever reading anything I write here.
G/Morkanauts don't belong in this discussion, both are solid. They're basically knights but a bit worse, and with a proportional points decrease to make up for that. For example, they only move 8" but get to re-roll one or both of the dice to charge. They have three quarters the wounds of a knight but cost about 3/4. They don't have a 5++ against shooting (the mork does, gork doesn't) but can benefit from other KFF's, kultures provide useful defensive buffs and can be healed by meks/big meks
I agree. Gorks, in particular, I think are good as armored anti-infantry. Mork kinda steps on the toes of Mek Gunz and SSAG. I tend to run mine as Freebooterz, proc the +1 with a Dakkajet, then lay in with its shots.
I WILL say they'd be a lot worse without the Tellyporta Stratagem. Too big to hide, not durable enough to withstand a T1 anti-armor barrage.
flandarz wrote: I agree. Gorks, in particular, I think are good as armored anti-infantry. Mork kinda steps on the toes of Mek Gunz and SSAG. I tend to run mine as Freebooterz, proc the +1 with a Dakkajet, then lay in with its shots.
I WILL say they'd be a lot worse without the Tellyporta Stratagem. Too big to hide, not durable enough to withstand a T1 anti-armor barrage.
The really sadpart, i wanted to start an army around them at their introduction. Never came around to it, such a wierdly nice looking unit, yet always kinda meh.,
Snake Tortoise wrote: G/Morkanauts don't belong in this discussion, both are solid. They're basically knights but a bit worse, and with a proportional points decrease to make up for that. For example, they only move 8" but get to re-roll one or both of the dice to charge. They have three quarters the wounds of a knight but cost about 3/4. They don't have a 5++ against shooting (the mork does, gork doesn't) but can benefit from other KFF's, kultures provide useful defensive buffs and can be healed by meks/big meks
Deathskulls is particularly beneficial for them
95% of the units being discussed her don't belong in it.
I think its hard to argue against the Stompa here. its a 1k point unit that consistently loses to units 1/3 the cost.
I understand some units may be argued as "worse for the points" but those same units then often are a few hundred points at most. So even in a 300 point "useless" models a 2k list could still have 1400 poitns of useful points. addind a stompa is a ~600 point handicap
Is that a possible contender or have people actually managed to find a use for the thing?
I have 6 old mental ones, eventually looking for a full 9.
While they aren't spectacular, I've had the Scarab Hive ability keep my objective holders alive long enough to win, since it'll spawn even if the Scarabs are in combat.
Blndmage wrote: Stomp Vs how many Monoliths for a fair fight?
Not sure on Stompa cost, I think it varies, by the monolith is 320.. so 2 Monoliths vs 1 stompa?
~2.4 monoliths (looks like 381 points) to one stompa. the bog standard stompa is 920 kustomed out with options it can be up to 1216.
don't get me wrong here monoliths are not great (mechanically, I love the model just liek the stompa) but part of their cost is the deep striking and eternity gating in units so monolith comes in 12 inches away and deploys a unit 3 inches towards enemy and next turn can drop another unit in.
neither onw is good though.
I would consider the Stompa the baseline of a 1 on the how bad a unti is overall 1-10 ... the monolith wouold probably be somewhere in the 2-3 overall which is pretty terribad in an of itself
How about brayarth ashmantle?
He's in some ways great, his flamers and melee are very good, he's tough as hell to boot, but he's 400pts and has a movement of 6" meaning he'll really struggle to get into range to do anything.
I'm going to put forward the mekboy workshop. 80 points to have the privelage of having one of your vehicles do nothing for a turn so it can do slightly better next turn. Of course the upgrades it gives are so bad that you may as well just use the vehicle this turn instead.
options:
extra 6" move for 1 turn - may as well just move this turn and be able to shoot.
random shots set to max for 1 weapon - 2x the average roll is more than 1x max roll and you don't get to shoot your other weapons for a turn
heal d3 wounds - totally not going to lose more than that in the turn sitting there doing nothing
The extra speshul bonusses are decent, but on a 6+ roll they cannot be planned around.
roflmajog wrote: I'm going to put forward the mekboy workshop. 80 points to have the privelage of having one of your vehicles do nothing for a turn so it can do slightly better next turn. Of course the upgrades it gives are so bad that you may as well just use the vehicle this turn instead.
options:
extra 6" move for 1 turn - may as well just move this turn and be able to shoot.
random shots set to max for 1 weapon - 2x the average roll is more than 1x max roll and you don't get to shoot your other weapons for a turn
heal d3 wounds - totally not going to lose more than that in the turn sitting there doing nothing
The extra speshul bonusses are decent, but on a 6+ roll they cannot be planned around.
Or the knight's forge thing, which acts similarly but stops a lot more points from doing anything and doesn't buff the knight.
I see you think farseer will come with the powers and the stratagems, sorry but they are in different book.
