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Is the Land Raider "The epitome of bad". Is it the perfectly worst choice in the entire game.

The Executioner thread is being flooded with claims that it's the Land Raider, and that seems exaggerated to me.

Things I think of as worse:
-Drop Pods (as now - I was called out for arguing they would be undercosted when someone suggested 0ppm for them, so I mean as currently pointed.)
-Any Titan
-Tantaulous
-FW Greater Demons (Sir Vowels-For-name, not "Fateweaver")
-Assault Marines
-Stompa
-Gorka/Morkanaught
-Squiggoths
-Vampyr Hunter/Raider
-Corsairs (foot, jetpack, or bike)

In an effort to declutter the Executioner thread, lets hash this out here.

Fw malcador, the bigger leman russ that ain't even as capable as a leman but costs more then double of it.

Vanquishers.

Raptors.

Tyrannocyte - The Tyranid drop pod.

Can only carry 1 unit. That unit is either 20 or less models (so no full units of hormagaunts) or 1 Monster.

So you can't bring a unit and the characters that buff them. You can't drop the swarmlord and tyrant guard to protect it.

It has a BS 5+ with 5 guns that put that model at around 200 points.


It has a worse BS, worse Save, worse utility. The Tcyte is total crap.

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyrannocyte - The Tyranid drop pod.

Can only carry 1 unit. That unit is either 20 or less models (so no full units of hormagaunts) or 1 Monster.

So you can't bring a unit and the characters that buff them. You can't drop the swarmlord and tyrant guard to protect it.

It has a BS 5+ with 5 guns that put that model at around 200 points.


It has a worse BS, worse Save, worse utility. The Tcyte is total crap.

So basically it is a droppod but with more dakka and a bs that makes you weep for having to pay for the dakka.

Also only one Monster?
Yikes.

Received new rules:
-It must not be bigger than a "normal" sized unit - as those bigger models are priced out of the game.
-It must not be cheaper than a Land Raider - as you can more easily absorb the cost.
-It must not be FW, as those aren't as well known.
-It must be Imperium. Reasons not given, just stated as obvious.

I'm not making this up.

What?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fw malcador, the bigger leman russ that ain't even as capable as a leman but costs more then double of it.

Vanquishers.

Raptors.

Raptors in host raptoral can have a 7 inch charge that doesn't allow overwatch. In black legion they can get on demand +1 attack and fight twice if they are korn with reroll hits. Realistically that can do a ton of damage. Most importantly though. They can stop overwatch for the rest of your army...Think...korn bezerkers trying to charge a tau sept battle line. That is an auto win condition.

Vanquishers are still better than basically every space marine tank option. They just are worse than battle cannons.

not sure what a malcadore is. Did you mean macharius heavy tank? The model with steal behemoth and 22 wounds with a 2d6 d6 damage battle cannon? Yeah it's not great but it is better than a LR. It is tougher and has much higher damage potential. You can get it hitting on 3's a number of ways. It can shoot and fall back - it can also shoot while locked in combat. LR gets shut off by a Gretchen.

Bharring wrote:
Received new rules:
-It must not be bigger than a "normal" sized unit - as those bigger models are priced out of the game.
-It must not be cheaper than a Land Raider - as you can more easily absorb the cost.
-It must not be FW, as those aren't as well known.
-It must be Imperium. Reasons not given, just stated as obvious.

I'm not making this up.

Wow, look at those goalposts move!

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyrannocyte - The Tyranid drop pod.

Can only carry 1 unit. That unit is either 20 or less models (so no full units of hormagaunts) or 1 Monster.

So you can't bring a unit and the characters that buff them. You can't drop the swarmlord and tyrant guard to protect it.

It has a BS 5+ with 5 guns that put that model at around 200 points.


It has a worse BS, worse Save, worse utility. The Tcyte is total crap.

Correct me if I am wrong but it's min cost is 100 and it is the only way to DS certain monsters such as swarmlord to set up swarm command for another charging unit. You can do this and still charge with swarmy while casting onslaught on something else and the thing can still move and averages 5 str 5 ap1 hits. Ehh. It's bad. Maybe the worst tyrranid unit overall. It still does things that nothing else can do. Copmpared to a drop pod it is amazing. Compared to a trygon...not so good but also much cheaper.

There are very few units that are more expensive than a land raider. If you want people to pick the Land Raider as the worst choice, just leave that as the only qualification.

If you want reasonable answer, the Vindicator is pretty darn bad in comparison . 24” less range, 1-3 less shots, no power of the machine spirit, 3+ save, fewer wounds, no transport capacity, and a worse anti infantry options

Bharring wrote:
Received new rules:
-It must not be bigger than a "normal" sized unit - as those bigger models are priced out of the game.
-It must not be cheaper than a Land Raider - as you can more easily absorb the cost.
-It must not be FW, as those aren't as well known.
-It must be Imperium. Reasons not given, just stated as obvious.

I'm not making this up.

Nonsense rules.

It must not be part of the doubling of points on many forge world units which were already in an awkwardly high price to being with. This points change right around the first chapter approved was clearly a statement to state these units were not intended for games of 40k.
It can be cheaper than a LR - that is fine. If it is super cheap and fills detachments that has a value of it's own - you must keep that in mind in your analysis. Also - often you have points left over in list contraction insmall amounts that would just be wasted points otherwise.
It can certainly be FW. Not an issue. It shouldn't be corsairs though because they don't even have a codex.
It must be imperium because we are talking about it being taken in a space marine army.

Im fine with those stipulations. Bring it on. Lets find us some units worse than LR. Keep in mind a LR is around 280 points and can be shut off by being touched in CC. It doesn't get an army trait. Has no invulnerable save. Has low firepower for it's cost. Has no stratagems to really help it except for 5++ to mortal wounds. Or fall back and shoot as DA. Plus it can transport units but can only transport 3 of the desired unit (HB cents). Lets keep the discussion about the godpattern for not. The other 2 varients are even worse IMO (esp after the asters bolter nerf).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
There are very few units that are more expensive than a land raider. If you want people to pick the Land Raider as the worst choice, just leave that as the only qualification.

If you want reasonable answer, the Vindicator is pretty darn bad in comparison . 24” less range, 1-3 less shots, no power of the machine spirit, 3+ save, fewer wounds, no transport capacity, and a worse anti infantry options

Yet in combination with another 2 vindis it can unleash essentially the most powerful ability in the game. 3d3 mortal wound splash damage. I played 3 of them yesterday as black legion and I destroyed 30 immortals and 2 cryptic with a single use of this stratagem. perfect rolls mind you. It basically won me the game on the first turn though.
Also 2 vindis cost less than 1 LR. Plus they are better in cetain situations. For example. Id much rather have the vindis vs necron wraiths. Or custdian gaurd. Or basically any T5 multi wound model that comes in units of 5. You will get over double the damage in those situations.

As someone who plays a supreme command of LR often. The demo russ is unanimously always targeted first. Something about wounding on 2's doing d6 damage scares people.

The Epitome of Bad considering only imperial Units has to be the deathstrike.

Feel free to convince me that it is better than a Land Raider. I'm waiting

Morkphoiz wrote:
The Epitome of Bad considering only imperial Units has to be the deathstrike.

I do believe you are correct in this case. Literally the worst rules I have ever seen. We are literally talking about a unit that can not shoot until turn 2 on a 6+ and probably averages something weak like 6 mortal wounds to a single target. However. 2 of them Can potentially with a little bit of luck kill a LR while costing less than it. and if you are lucky you get some spash damage too. For the same cost you can get a manticore though...it's asinine. The model literally has a rule that says it can't do anything. LOL

Said ability needs all 3 tanks alive and all 3 within 6” of each other. You also had to roll at least 4 4+ and 2 5+ with above average roles. Before looking at the damage roll you had about a 1/16 chance of hitting all of those blobs and that drops dramatically when you take the 1/3 chance each cryptek represented. If you take the high damage roll into account, you’re entire argument rest on an extremely small probability that probably needed first turn and for your opponent to completely misread the board. Rolling great can make up for any lousy unit.

If you face those 3 vindicators against the land raider, the land raider will destroy all 3 if you plan based on probability. If you take the best possible option, the land raider can kill 2 of the vindicators in one salvo.

Toughness 5 is the one area the vindicator is better but the 24” range needs you opponent to be stupid for the gun to be successful

 Xenomancers wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
The Epitome of Bad considering only imperial Units has to be the deathstrike.

I do believe you are correct in this case. Literally the worst rules I have ever seen. We are literally talking about a unit that can not shoot until turn 2 on a 6+ and probably averages something weak like 6 mortal wounds to a single target. However. 2 of them Can potentially with a little bit of luck kill a LR while costing less than it. and if you are lucky you get some spash damage too. For the same cost you can get a manticore though...it's asinine. The model literally has a rule that says it can't do anything. LOL

No. In a Vacuum a Land Raider would win even against 3 deathstrikes because they would not do jack the first turns and their bs degrades when you shoot them making their Output even more laughable.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Said ability needs all 3 tanks alive and all 3 within 6” of each other. You also had to roll at least 4 4+ and 2 5+ with above average roles. Before looking at the damage roll you had about a 1/16 chance of hitting all of those blobs and that drops dramatically when you take the 1/3 chance each cryptek represented. If you take the high damage roll into account, you’re entire argument rest on an extremely small probability that probably needed first turn and for your opponent to completely misread the board. Rolling great can make up for any lousy unit.

If you face those 3 vindicators against the land raider, the land raider will destroy all 3 if you plan based on probability. If you take the best possible option, the land raider can kill 2 of the vindicators in one salvo.

Toughness 5 is the one area the vindicator is better but the 24” range needs you opponent to be stupid for the gun to be successful

you can advance and pop smoke use the stratagem that is an average of 24+10+d6 + 3(because its a 3 inch aura) for an average 40 inch threat range (39ish if you consider the models take us space) That is more than enough to pull it off. Sometimes you roll hot though. Sometimes you roll hot and your opponent makes 4x 4++ saves on their power unit when you hit it with 4 LC though. Mortal wounds say...I don't care about your stats. I roll high you lose. It is very powerful man. I suggest you try it out. Since I started using the blokes I find it hard to stop in any of my SM or chaos lists. At the very least - it forces your opponent to not shot you super units because they cant let you use that stratagem.

I wouldn’t be arguing against it if I hadn’t tried it dude. Now I’ll admit that many metas are different but the success you're pushing for is not what you plan around. On average each successful hit will do 6 mortal wounds. It hits half the time so it’s averaging about 3 mortal wounds on a random unit.

Also you only get one shot at pulling that off, otherwise there’s going to be a dead vindicator. And heaven help you if you lose one before the first turn. If the situation is perfect, it’s a great ability. Most of the time it will not be perfect and you’ll do scratch damage for the cost of 1 CP and 400+ points.

The Land Raider Redeemer. Hah!

Actually I played a slightly larger game last night at 2750 points, and took two standard Land Raiders. It wound up being more or less a tank/Dreadnought battle vs. Custodes. My opponent gave up towards the end of the first shooting phase as I had knocked out around half of his army.


I heard some Grey Knights player took a relatively big tournament with two Land Raiders in his army.

Tervigon and Ridgerunner are up there for worst units in the game.
The former is now 200 points of nothing (bad shooting/melee/support) that gets destroyed by any resemblance of AP while the latter is a "Mobile vehicle" with BS 4+ and only heavy weapons to choose from, Toughness FIVE and 4+ armour save with no chapter tactics and limited sinergies, all for the mere cost of 84 pts (the best choice mind you)

Wraithknights

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyrannocyte - The Tyranid drop pod.

Can only carry 1 unit. That unit is either 20 or less models (so no full units of hormagaunts) or 1 Monster.

So you can't bring a unit and the characters that buff them. You can't drop the swarmlord and tyrant guard to protect it.

It has a BS 5+ with 5 guns that put that model at around 200 points.


It has a worse BS, worse Save, worse utility. The Tcyte is total crap.

Correct me if I am wrong but it's min cost is 100 and it is the only way to DS certain monsters such as swarmlord to set up swarm command for another charging unit. You can do this and still charge with swarmy while casting onslaught on something else and the thing can still move and averages 5 str 5 ap1 hits. Ehh. It's bad. Maybe the worst tyrranid unit overall. It still does things that nothing else can do. Copmpared to a drop pod it is amazing. Compared to a trygon...not so good but also much cheaper.

Ah yeah, 100 points. Fair. My bad on the point cost.

However, to your other points, 1) The swarmlord doesn't need to be deep struck. It can slingshot itself into the enemies front line easily from your own front line. And 2) it's fast enough that it has no need to be deepstruck to slingshot another unit. Putting a SL into the thing means you are paying an extra 100 points ontop of the already expensive 250 point 12 wound SL so that you can put him front and center and get him blasted off the table in a single turn. Which brings me to point 3) the swarmlord isn't really any good. It LOOKS good on paper and the Genestealer "bomb" slingshot trick is a decent enough tactic when you pull it off. But the point investment to do it is 250 SL + 240 GS + a second 240 point GS because you want 2 units in case one of them gets killed early so you want a redundancy to ensure it goes off for a total of 730 points for a one trick pony.

So no. The Tcyte is crap and it's uses are none which is why you have never seen one on the table in 8th ed.

 slave.entity wrote:
Wraithknights

After their 100 points drop they are reasonably average. With 5+FNP on it it is quite chunky and has reasonable firepower with the suncannon build. By no means amazing but better than a knight in certain situations. Where having decent shooting and a 5++ in melle are what you are looking for. It also can have the infamous -1 to hit aloitoc trait.

Monolith

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fw malcador, the bigger leman russ that ain't even as capable as a leman but costs more then double of it.

Vanquishers.

Raptors.

Macharius. Literally a Leman Russ... without the Lascannon/Plasma options, 20 wounds, and over twice the cost.

Tau flyers, especially the Sun Shark. They don't just need a points drop, they need new rules. Bad.

Chaos Daemon chariots that aren't characters or Skull Cannons. Way too squishy even if they are not too expensive. And the Slaanesh ones have to reach close combat to do anything, which no competent opponent is going to allow to happen. At least Skull Cannons can sit back at long range rather than needing to get into melee range, so they might actually have a chance to do something. And the character ones mostly have less than 10 wounds and so can hide (I think; correct me if I'm wrong please!).

Leman Russ variants that aren't a Battle Tank, Executioner, or Punisher. The other weapons don't offer anything special at all. Vanquisher would be better if it got more shots, Eradicator is just a crappy Battle Cannon, Exterminator is just autocannons (which are available on plenty of other, cheaper platforms), and Demolisher is way too short-ranged for a Russ to safely operate at.

Oops, meant to post this in the Executioner thread.

Absolute worst choice to spend points on? The Mek Workshop. Hands down, conversation is over, this is the champion. What does it do, you might ask. Well...

This is an 80ppm Fortification. Pretty cheap, right? Well, here's what you get for those 80 points.

1) if you can lure the enemy to within 1" of it, while your own Infantry is within 1" of it, you can roll 1d6 and on a 4+ deal a whole D3 MW.

2) you can have one of your vehicles basically give up an entire turn to receive either a 6" movement speed increase until the end of the next Movement Phase, heal D3 damage (or a flat 3 if a Big Mek is nearby), OR get the maximum amount of shots on single variable shot weapon on that model the next time it shoots.

3) that's it. Well, I guess you have a 16.7% chance of getting a very minor bonus for the rest of the game when you get a Kustom Job... but...

There you go. You just spent 80 pts to lock one of your own units out of the battle for a whole turn. Or, in other words, this is an 80 point investment that makes your army worse. I can't think of a single worse thing. Even a Stompa *can* be useful. But this? Well, for example, you give up a turn of moving for an extra 6" of movement. Once. You could literally just move over two turns and almost any vehicle will move further than that extra 6". Max shots? Just shoot over two turns. The only marginally useful thing about it is the MW Klaw, and good luck getting your opponent within 1" of this thing when he/she knows you have it. As a Fortification, it can't move either, so you have to wait for someone stupid to just walk into the damage.

In summary: Mek Workshop. Worst. Unit. Ever.

We can do this one with Fortifications all day. The Skyshield Landing pad that heals flyers that landed on the pad, even though they can't land on the pad. If you house rule it so they can they'd still lose their defensive benefits likely costing them far more wounds that they'd gain.

The Imperial Defense line. Paying for.. cover.

Worst unit to objectively *spend* points on?

Tyranid Spore mines.

We get them from so many abilities you should never NEED to buy them, but Christ are they bad as a unit you spend points on.

Wraitlords, Wraithknights, Night Spinners, D-cannon batteries, lumbering Drukhari HQs, and whatnot.