Seriously, between this and people germing up my ice cream and arizona teas- I'm just at a loss.
What possesses a person to think any of these things are good ideas? And furthermore, why does this crap get to be so amusing to some that copy cats arise?
Dunno but me and my GF joked that we should set up an online store and start selling used socks and underwear... The more I think about it the more it seems like less of a joke and more of a good business plan to make our millions.
Argive wrote: Dunno but me and my GF joked that we should set up an online store and start selling used socks and underwear...
The more I think about it the more it seems like less of a joke and more of a good business plan to make our millions.
I've already heard rumors that the person above is going to try selling her urine next.
Argive wrote: Dunno but me and my GF joked that we should set up an online store and start selling used socks and underwear... The more I think about it the more it seems like less of a joke and more of a good business plan to make our millions.
I've already heard rumors that the person above is going to try selling her urine next.
Argive wrote: Dunno but me and my GF joked that we should set up an online store and start selling used socks and underwear...
The more I think about it the more it seems like less of a joke and more of a good business plan to make our millions.
I've already heard rumors that the person above is going to try selling her urine next.
*Shudders*
Right, stop the planet, I want off..
Some people will do anything they can to get as much attention as they can. It seems to be the mantra of the internet.
A lot of these people are grown ass adults, so it's not just kids. The internet has allowed for people to congregate in ways humans seldom have. Crazy people can now flock to other crazies and we live in a time where they can have their own insulated communities irregardless of the distance separating them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: Sounds like some people haven't seen certain corners of the internet if they think that selling any of those things is at all new.
I typically try not to gross myself out. Very happy that I've only heard the names of things like Goatse and Tub girl, yet I've never actually seen them.
filbert wrote: What’s wrong with it? It’s a perfectly cromulent word.
It is a non-word that only made it into the dictionary because of ignorant twits refusing to correct their grammar. It's right up there with "unthaw", "unloosen", "PIN number", and "ATM machine"
filbert wrote: What’s wrong with it? It’s a perfectly cromulent word.
It is a non-word that only made it into the dictionary because of ignorant twits refusing to correct their grammar. It's right up there with "unthaw", "unloosen", "PIN number", and "ATM machine"
Every addition that embiggens the dictionary with these non-words cheapens us all.
filbert wrote: What’s wrong with it? It’s a perfectly cromulent word.
It is a non-word that only made it into the dictionary because of ignorant twits refusing to correct their grammar. It's right up there with "unthaw", "unloosen", "PIN number", and "ATM machine"
Every addition that embiggens the dictionary with these non-words cheapens us all.
If she made money out of it, good for her. I mean, I wouldn’t buy it. Not because I think it’s weird or owt (I mean, it is weird), but because my suspicious nature would make me question if it’s actually The Real Deal.
You want a glimpse at society going proper over the edge? Goop. And David Wolfe.
Nah man, in this case the old grumps are right - "social media influencers" and the whole culture surrounding them is genuinely a blight on civilisation. And their rampant stupidity and attention-seeking now frequently doesn't just humiliate or endanger themselves or their "fans", it's harming others.
At this point, I'd lay better odds on "social media moronfluencer licks icecream tub and puts it back, sparking a global pandemic due to antivax idiocy" being the cause of the end of the human race than I would on nuclear war.
Argive wrote: Dunno but me and my GF joked that we should set up an online store and start selling used socks and underwear...
The more I think about it the more it seems like less of a joke and more of a good business plan to make our millions.
I've already heard rumors that the person above is going to try selling her urine next.
*Shudders*
Right, stop the planet, I want off..
Some people will do anything they can to get as much attention as they can. It seems to be the mantra of the internet.
" It's just a prank bro, no need to get mad bro!"
We call it mpg here: Mittelpunkt geil.
Literally focus point horny. Or attention horny.
FWIW, I have long been of the opinion that 'vlogger' is less an occupation than a damning indictment of our society, but I'm also long of the opinion that the Harm Principle governs.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Isnt selling that bathwater just essentially like sex work?
Kinda? Just way less gross for the sex worker, and way more gross for the customer.
Actually I'd surmise that in this one instance, internet sex work is light years safer than real sex work. I've a lady friend who does the whole camming thing to support herself through medical school. It seems to help her with her financials, but also keeps her for actually getting into a physical situation with some random dude that could make her sick or pregnant.
But this...this isn't sex work. It's the worst part of what I call "Thot Culture." Which in my opinion is just as sick and vial as the incels that spawned it in the first place.
Argive wrote: Dunno but me and my GF joked that we should set up an online store and start selling used socks and underwear...
The more I think about it the more it seems like less of a joke and more of a good business plan to make our millions.
I've already heard rumors that the person above is going to try selling her urine next.
*Shudders*
After having companies making beer and cheese with certain bodily fluids this looks like an industry in the making.
Togusa wrote:But this...this isn't sex work. It's the worst part of what I call "Thot Culture." Which in my opinion is just as sick and vial as the incels that spawned it in the first place.
It's sex work (it falls under that umbrella), it's another niche fetish. It's just that this is the first time this specific type of fetish got more mainstream-ish media attention. Somebody else has already mentioned used socks and underwear. My first instinct would be to wash dirty clothes so that's just not my thing but it seems to work for some people. I also don't understand furries but if makes them feel better and if they are having fun with it and causing no issues then where's the harm?
If her customers are willing to pay money for it then why not? For her it's healthier work than working in coal mines and probably even most regular service industry work (retail, waiting tables,…). As long as her customers get the advertised product everybody should be fine with that transaction. Let them do what they want as long as they are not harming anybody (else).
Togusa wrote:But this...this isn't sex work. It's the worst part of what I call "Thot Culture." Which in my opinion is just as sick and vial as the incels that spawned it in the first place.
It's sex work (it falls under that umbrella), it's another niche fetish. It's just that this is the first time this specific type of fetish got more mainstream-ish media attention. Somebody else has already mentioned used socks and underwear. My first instinct would be to wash dirty clothes so that's just not my thing but it seems to work for some people. I also don't understand furries but if makes them feel better and if they are having fun with it and causing no issues then where's the harm?
If her customers are willing to pay money for it then why not? For her it's healthier work than working in coal mines and probably even most regular service industry work (retail, waiting tables,…). As long as her customers get the advertised product everybody should be fine with that transaction. Let them do what they want as long as they are not harming anybody (else).
The only thing I would say is that its not actually work. Work implies productivity and output. This... this whatever this is is not that. It all seems like some sort of parasitic cultural virus type thing. Much like the outrage culture bug, modern western society seems to have caught.
We are spiraling into oblivion head first when this is considered 'work' and is elevated and accepted...
I am really behind the times with this sort of thing. I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are. They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.
Were getting into dangerous territory where people have to be protected from their own stupidity...
Togusa wrote: But this...this isn't sex work. It's the worst part of what I call "Thot Culture." Which in my opinion is just as sick and vial as the incels that spawned it in the first place.
Incels: "women should be our lobotomized rape slaves, mass shooters are our heroes".
"Thot culture", whatever that is: *sells soft porn to willing buyers*
Yeah, these are definitely equal things...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: Work implies productivity and output. This... this whatever this is is not that.
How is it not productivity and output? She recognized a target market, developed a plan to exploit the opportunity, and turned it into a profitable business.
Argive wrote: The only thing I would say is that its not actually work. Work implies productivity and output.
Work colloquially also implies doing a job. Sex work is an umbrella term for all kinds of occupations/work that's done in that niche where services or items related to sex are exchanged for money, favours, or things: Everything from prostitution, escorts, cam girls, to stuff like this. But yes, she's not actually building a house out of dildos or other "real work". Her clients find some value in that transaction so it fits that description. This is not specifically about work as a term in physics or thermodynamics but about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_worker
I agree it's not work(selling bathwater, pants, nail clippings or whatever other miscellaneous items to perverts) But fair play to them. If there are fools out there, then why not take their money? ... Thats just good business. If I could sell my used grots I definitely would.
It might not be a 9-5 job, but fetish work is clearly work. You have to have marketing, production, packaging, and shipping. When I sell more than ten things on eBay, I start to lose my mind, I can't imagine the hassle of shipping dozens of jars.
With the bathwater thing, there are two threads here. One is it's a giant inside joke. She's a troll, most of the people buying it are trolls, it's just a fad. the other is, well, yeah, perverts. Big spenders.
Argive wrote: I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.
Sorry, but hard disagree.
I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.
They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.
That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.
This sort of thing has been going on forever, I don’t see the sudden fascination with it. The Catholic Church sold Christ’s finger bones for centuries.
As for contaminating goods, I’d be more worried about what the kids making your hamburgers at McDonald’s are doing, or not doing. Just reminds me of the kids that stuck chewing gum on seats and railings when I was a lad. Trolls gonna troll.
Argive wrote: I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.
Sorry, but hard disagree.
I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.
They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.
That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.
Yeah but when doing sex work (and they are caming, so its sex work..) you will get weirdos and perverts messaging you.... In ideal utopia, yeah, we would not have have pervy weirdos but we do. Its just fact and reality.. the weirdos are not going anywhere.
People no longer need to take agency over their self-conduct or protect themselves and think about their actions. They are publicly doing cam shows and aiming to attract as much attention as possible to make money... So they will attract attention ALL OF THE ATTENTION. To complain about it like you didn't think it would happen is just idiotic.... Also if they are hurt by an online comment maybe internet is not the best place to practice your sex work business which allows for comments... Obviously my opinions.
Argive wrote: I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.
Sorry, but hard disagree.
I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.
They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.
That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.
I mean, sure, to an extent. I hate to use this argument because it's so often used in bad faith, but at some point a line is crossed beyond which it's less sexual harassment and more just expressions of the exact thing they were trying to elicit.
If a woman is just out & about, at work or otherwise, she should be able to wear what she likes and expect to not have to deal with pervy comments and the like. However, if your entire professional persona is pushing all the way out to just this side of pornography to solicit cash from thirsty blokes, I don't know that you can really clutch your pearls all that hard when the accounts associated with that persona get some risque PMs.
In that kind of case, I'd say it becomes harassment depending on the content of the messages, depending on the reaction the messager has to being ignored or told to bog off, or in any case where messages are intruding on the actual real person behind the persona's life.
To draw a parallel; everyone should be able to share their reasonable thoughts and views on social media without being abused and dogpiled, but if you behave like an intentionally provocative troll or insist on continually expressing genuinely repugnant views for the sake of clicks, well, part of the responsibility for what happens after that - up to a point - is yours. You can still justifiably be upset over serious death-threats, or doxxing, things of that nature, but if you start getting PMs with extensive collections of expletives that's just an expression of exactly what you wanted in the first place - to make people angry.
Argive wrote: Yeah but when doing sex work (and they are caming, so its sex work..) you will get weirdos and perverts messaging you.... In ideal utopia, yeah, we would not have have pervy weirdos but we do. Its just fact and reality.. the weirdos are not going anywhere.
People no longer need to take agency over their self-conduct or protect themselves and think about their actions. They are publicly doing cam shows and aiming to attract as much attention as possible to make money... So they will attract attention ALL OF THE ATTENTION. To complain about it like you didn't think it would happen is just idiotic.... Also if they are hurt by an online comment maybe internet is not the best place to practice your sex work business which allows for comments... Obviously my opinions.
Alternatively we could not engage in victim blaming and apologism for bad behavior.
Argive wrote: I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.
Sorry, but hard disagree.
I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.
They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.
That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.
I mean, sure, to an extent. I hate to use this argument because it's so often used in bad faith, but at some point a line is crossed beyond which it's less sexual harassment and more just expressions of the exact thing they were trying to elicit.
If a woman is just out & about, at work or otherwise, she should be able to wear what she likes and expect to not have to deal with pervy comments and the like. However, if your entire professional persona is pushing all the way out to just this side of pornography to solicit cash from thirsty blokes, I don't know that you can really clutch your pearls all that hard when the accounts associated with that persona get some risque PMs.
In that kind of case, I'd say it becomes harassment depending on the content of the messages, depending on the reaction the messager has to being ignored or told to bog off, or in any case where messages are intruding on the actual real person behind the persona's life.
To draw a parallel; everyone should be able to share their reasonable thoughts and views on social media without being abused and dogpiled, but if you behave like an intentionally provocative troll or insist on continually expressing genuinely repugnant views for the sake of clicks, well, part of the responsibility for what happens after that - up to a point - is yours. You can still justifiably be upset over serious death-threats, or doxxing, things of that nature, but if you start getting PMs with extensive collections of expletives that's just an expression of exactly what you wanted in the first place - to make people angry.
I think some people just don't want to hear it. How dare you suggest people are responsible for their own life and actions or every action has a reaction. Or that reality is a lot different to what outrage culture portrays... Shame on you.
Someone will probably say you are victim blaming or something no matter how much logic you try to put into your thinking.
To nip in in the bud its not okay to harass anyone, it isn't. Nobody is saying that, but at the same time you will be harassed if you put yourself in certain situations because that's life and horrible people exist. its reality and a fact. So if you go out of your way to put yourself in a situation so you can leech off certain people and then complain those people harass you, you are stupid. And I don't have time to feel sorry for stupid people where there are people genuinely getting harassed and actual real world problems and issues.
Because that's life. I think if you create a world where sex is so open and Liberal as it is now, you need to expect that certain people will take that as a cue to do inappropriate things, usually through not being taught any better. Now I don't agree with that, and I don't condone it, it's pretty pathetic, but in my opinion its a by product of what happens if you liberalise sex.
Peregrine wrote: "I'm not victim blaming, but here's a bunch of me blaming the victims".
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitt...OMG YOU HIT MEEEEE!!!!"
And don't pretend you're not capable of grasping the concept that a person can bear some responsibility for a thing happening to them, and should expect it to be happening based on their actions, even if that thing is bad in general and in an ideal world shouldn't be happening.
Most of us probably work a job, right? And with that job comes some stuff we dislike and wish would go away. I am a teacher, I complain about my marking, or about kids being snotty, or whatever. But ultimately, that is how I make my living.
People really rarely tell me to stop whinging about it and accept personal responsibility for my career choice, but WEIRDLY, when it is some young women making their living by having this persona on Twitch or whatever, suddenly it is not valid for them to complain because it all comes with the territory.
So I just detect a bit of a double standard when it comes to this sort of topic.
It is a bit like how "Ethics in Games Journalism" was never a really big deal until a woman might have been having sex with someone.
Sometimes self awareness is a good thing.
As to selling bathwater and so on, it is a transaction and both sides understand what they are getting, so whatever. I would be amazed if anyone bought that stuff, and I think it is really weird, but whatever. People have been selling weird stuff forever, I don't think it is a new phenomenon.
Argive wrote: I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.
Sorry, but hard disagree.
I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.
They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.
That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.
Yeah but when doing sex work (and they are caming, so its sex work..)
No, it's not. I don't know what particular streamers you're on about, but video games require no qualifications or baseline of skill. They're just filming themselves playing a game on camera and talking to eachother (which is probably the main source of interest) - which is pretty much EVERY group twitch stream ever. However, you think that because of what they choose to wear, and that they're apparently attractive, you think people have the right to send them degrading messages despite them asking not to?
That's not their fault. That's yours.
you will get weirdos and perverts messaging you.... In ideal utopia, yeah, we would not have have pervy weirdos but we do. Its just fact and reality.. the weirdos are not going anywhere.
That's not good enough. If you genuinely believe that pervy weirdos shouldn't exist, you'd actually oppose them instead of saying "well, that's just how it is". Instead of blaming those weirdos, you're blaming these streamers for the perversions of others.
People no longer need to take agency over their self-conduct or protect themselves and think about their actions.
Like those perverts leaving the comments, right? What consequences will they receive for their actions and self-conduct?
They are publicly doing cam shows and aiming to attract as much attention as possible to make money... So they will attract attention ALL OF THE ATTENTION. To complain about it like you didn't think it would happen is just idiotic....
It's not about if it would happen, it's about if it "should" happen. Those women should not be subjected to that, and all you're doing is saying how actually, they deserved it all along. No-one, absolutely NO-ONE should have to expect to receive sexual messages and abuse, especially if they explicitly ask for people NOT to do that.
If you still go ahead and leave degrading comments on someone's video even after they ask for you not to do so, you're completely in the wrong. That is below human decency.
Also if they are hurt by an online comment maybe internet is not the best place to practice your sex work business which allows for comments...
"If you can't handle people abusing you online because they're perverts, you're clearly the one who should leave the platform, and not them." That's absolutely ridiculous. Do you think women who get catcalled in the streets shouldn't be walking on those streets?
Yodhrin wrote:I mean, sure, to an extent. I hate to use this argument because it's so often used in bad faith, but at some point a line is crossed beyond which it's less sexual harassment and more just expressions of the exact thing they were trying to elicit.
If someone's asked you not to make any kind of comments in that nature, you should know better than to continue making them.
If you're still making those comments despite the person literally asking you not to, that IS harassment. When the comments are sexual in nature, it's sexual harassment. Simple.
If a woman is just out & about, at work or otherwise, she should be able to wear what she likes and expect to not have to deal with pervy comments and the like. However, if your entire professional persona is pushing all the way out to just this side of pornography to solicit cash from thirsty blokes,
Why not? She's still a woman, doing her work. It's not pornography, any more so than an attractive person doing something is pornography. Is an attractive lifeguard considered "pornography" now, because they're wearing little? Is a model considered to be doing "pornography" because they might be wearing lingerie or underwear?
Just because of what they're wearing does NOT make it pornography.
You also touch on the real problem of the issue here. It's not the fault of the people who are turning to these jobs for money. It's the fault of the "thirsty blokes" who are throwing the money at them. Blame them for encouraging these ladies to earn money in this way, if you think what they do is immoral.
I don't know that you can really clutch your pearls all that hard when the accounts associated with that persona get some risque PMs.
No, I absolutely can. If they've asked for people not to do that, and people continue to, that's not their fault, and they absolutely shouldn't expect to have to put up with other people's lack of respect.
In that kind of case, I'd say it becomes harassment depending on the content of the messages, depending on the reaction the messager has to being ignored or told to bog off, or in any case where messages are intruding on the actual real person behind the persona's life.
Disagree. It should NEVER be assumed that you have a right to send sexually suggestive messages to a content creator, and especially not if they've explicitly asked for people not to do that. If you breach that, you're the one at fault.
To draw a parallel; everyone should be able to share their reasonable thoughts and views on social media without being abused and dogpiled, but if you behave like an intentionally provocative troll or insist on continually expressing genuinely repugnant views for the sake of clicks, well, part of the responsibility for what happens after that - up to a point - is yours. You can still justifiably be upset over serious death-threats, or doxxing, things of that nature, but if you start getting PMs with extensive collections of expletives that's just an expression of exactly what you wanted in the first place - to make people angry.
Wait, so you're saying "because they're wearing XYZ and are behaving in this way, they DESERVE to be sent sexually degrading messages, even if they've asked for people not to"?
Jesus Christ.You wouldn't also be one of these people who claim that "it's okay to catcall because they were wearing a low cut top" or "it's okay to touch them because they were wearing provocative clothing", or "it's not fault, her underwear was clearly inviting me to do that", would you?
Yodhrin wrote:
Peregrine wrote: "I'm not victim blaming, but here's a bunch of me blaming the victims".
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitt...OMG YOU HIT MEEEEE!!!!"
And don't pretend you're not capable of grasping the concept that a person can bear some responsibility for a thing happening to them, and should expect it to be happening based on their actions, even if that thing is bad in general and in an ideal world shouldn't be happening.
If you want that ideal world to happen, maybe you should stop victim-blaming, stop allowing people to get away with making those kind of degrading comments, and actually stand up and oppose them.
Unless, of course, you think it's absolutely okay for women to be abused because some "thirsty blokes" can't control their urges, and blame it all on the women, and not the actual abusers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: As to selling bathwater and so on, it is a transaction and both sides understand what they are getting, so whatever. I would be amazed if anyone bought that stuff, and I think it is really weird, but whatever. People have been selling weird stuff forever, I don't think it is a new phenomenon.
This is a good point. Both parties are aware of what it is they're doing. The seller isn't forcing the buyer into it. If you've got a problem with the transaction, blame the person who's willing to buy bathwater.
Peregrine wrote: "I'm not victim blaming, but here's a bunch of me blaming the victims".
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitt...OMG YOU HIT MEEEEE!!!!"
And don't pretend you're not capable of grasping the concept that a person can bear some responsibility for a thing happening to them, and should expect it to be happening based on their actions, even if that thing is bad in general and in an ideal world shouldn't be happening.
When a person leaves a high value item in plain view, and it's stolen, we all kind of understand that the person could be more careful, but we also clearly and unambiguously acknowledge that it should not happen, and people that do so are criminals.
harassment of women online, however, seems to be treated as "just one of those things," even though harassment is still objective improper. And it's not like she can just be more careful, to avoid harassment she would not to basically stop posting the material that makes money. That doesn't seem fair.
The harassment is not because the women are wearing revealing clothes. If they were wearing a burqa they'd still receive harassment, possibly even worse than before.
The problem is the people sending the messages. End of.
I'm considering mine. When I'm on the clock, I do my job. When I'm off the clock? I very much reserve the right to tell people seeking my assistance to Go Away.
My career is not in fact my life. My knowledge and role do not define me, or mean I'm open all hours. My commitment and competence within my career do not mean I have to deal with all related queries and questions, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Why should it be any different here?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Same for Adult Entertainers, and Persons of Negotiable Affections.
Do you have an agreement/contract with them, where they've agreed a price and the services to be rendered? No? Then they don't owe you a thing.
I don't think anyone thinks they deserve to be sent in appropriate photos or messages, or blaming them for it..
What I'm saying is that if you have a culture that facilitates people making money doing that sort of thing, then its also going to facilitate (in some) a mentality that it's OK to do that,(send inappropriate messages)and (in their heads) that the receiver will appreciate such messages. The bar lowers for everyone, not just those who it benefits.
"It's inappropriate to do this, but here's a bunch of excuses and piss-poor mitigation for same, designed to dress up my dreadful personal opinion as sociological fact."
but do you have an actual counterpoint to mine? or are you just going to keep beating the ad hominem drum? what about my opinion makes it dreadful? your opinion? ergo, attempting to silence someone from a high ground you just placed yourself upon is not really a valid form of debate.
The mistake is believing that I'm attempting to debate you. That your opinions require a rebuttal, that they aren't obviously self-refuting and utterly naked.
Your opinion, dear Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells, is dreadful because it is naught but misogynistic victim-blaming; a rally-cry for the status quo.
AdeptSister wrote: Work is work. No one deserves harassment just because you disagree with its value.
It feels so weird how so many people benefit or consume the results of sex work, but it's not valued. It's a huge industry and is everywhere.
The seller is a known troll who does pranks like this. If you don't like what she is doing, just don't feed her.
Sex work not beeing valued depends quite a lot on the country.
Also the circumstances of it are often directly corelated with it's status as legal or illegal and therefore the structure and support workers in it get.
Considering also health issues it would be prudent imo to atelast legalize it with the propper health controll requirments in place as this would basically cover a large part of the required support for workers within it allready.
Alas with morals one might win victories in votes and therefore nothing will hapen because morals invoke feelings and invoked feelings are more powerfull to about 75% of the population.
Togusa wrote: But this...this isn't sex work. It's the worst part of what I call "Thot Culture." Which in my opinion is just as sick and vial as the incels that spawned it in the first place.
Incels: "women should be our lobotomized rape slaves, mass shooters are our heroes".
"Thot culture", whatever that is: *sells soft porn to willing buyers*
Yeah, these are definitely equal things...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: Work implies productivity and output. This... this whatever this is is not that.
How is it not productivity and output? She recognized a target market, developed a plan to exploit the opportunity, and turned it into a profitable business.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Incels spawned the whole "Thot" meme, and I've noticed that a lot of "Gamer Girls" and so on are now riding it to success, essentially taking it and using it to plow tons of money from socially awkward people who do not have healthy relationships, or views on healthy relationships. It's essentially two groups taking advantage of each other, with one group profiting off the other. It's pretty sick.
Argive wrote: Yeah but when doing sex work (and they are caming, so its sex work..) you will get weirdos and perverts messaging you.... In ideal utopia, yeah, we would not have have pervy weirdos but we do. Its just fact and reality.. the weirdos are not going anywhere.
People no longer need to take agency over their self-conduct or protect themselves and think about their actions. They are publicly doing cam shows and aiming to attract as much attention as possible to make money... So they will attract attention ALL OF THE ATTENTION. To complain about it like you didn't think it would happen is just idiotic.... Also if they are hurt by an online comment maybe internet is not the best place to practice your sex work business which allows for comments... Obviously my opinions.
Alternatively we could not engage in victim blaming and apologism for bad behavior.
It's not victim blaming, it's called "Personal Accountability."
This is exactly why I can't identify with any political groups in modern society, because everyone wants to constantly claim a victim card and then use to to beat everyone else over the head with.
If you're going to participate in online communities, be prepared to toughen up a lot. These are not nice places, and no amount of progressiveness is going to change it. It kills me when someone starts cry because they went onto a website and did something that either is popular, or unpopular and then catch flak for it. What did they expect was going to happen?
Excommunicatus wrote: Did you forget that you're referencing unsolicited sexual material along the meandering way to what I'll generously call your point?
Check yo' PMs. I've got some pics for you. What? You brought it up. What did you expect? Toughen up.
Nope. There are a lot of amoral scumbags out there in the world. Decades of poor parenting (if any at all) has given rise to vast numbers of men and women who treat each other like rags. Be responsible for the things you do online and offline, be a decent person and be respectful. It's your responsibility, and no one else. Do not engage in risky behavior, and if you chose to engage in such behaviors, don't come crying when it blows up in your face.
Belle Delphine has to be acountable. The degenerates sending her unsolicited sexual material don't.
Not all men, but definitely this one.
They're going to do what they want to do, they're going to make choices on how to behave. That is not my responsibility, that is their responsibility. And you know this very well.
If you go online acting like a hoebag, do not be surprised when people with no moral standing and poor decision making skills treat you like a hoebag.
Should I be surprised that I get the ever living gak kicked out of me if I go into a biker bar, find three black men and start hurling racial slurs at them for "Teh luls?"
Togusa wrote: Be responsible for the things you do online and offline, be a decent person and be respectful.
Agreed. So what have the twitch streamers that were brought up earlier by Argive done in violation of this?
The only people who seem to have been in violation of this are the people who apparently sent them a whole heaping of sexually degrading messages, even when being asked not to.
Do not engage in risky behavior, and if you chose to engage in such behaviors, don't come crying when it blows up in your face.
That depends what you call "risky behaviour". People calling you out if you make offensive comments and jokes? Yeah, you chose to hurt people. That's your fault. People making sexually charged comments at you, because of what you're wearing when you stream? Sorry, that's on the people commenting, not you. And just to emphasise, ESPECIALLY when you've asked for people not to do that.
It's just a total coincidence that you're damning Belle Delphine because "she isn't accountable" - assuming, without deciding, that it is even true - while you twist and squirm to avoid the obvious conclusion that the accountability you demand from her applies equally to the people sending her unsolicited sexual material; a behaviour that, for whatever reason, you're eagerly defending and excusing.
It's just a total coincidence that you're damning Belle Delphine because "she isn't accountable" - assuming, without deciding, that it is even true - while you twist and squirm to avoid the obvious conclusion that the accountability you demand from her applies equally to the people sending her unsolicited sexual material; a behaviour that, for whatever reason, you're eagerly defending and excusing.
At the very least, I'd be expecting Togusa to be calling out the people sending the unsolicted sexual material. If they didn't, that would call their entire argument about "accountability" into question.
Belle Delphine has to be acountable. The degenerates sending her unsolicited sexual material don't.
Not all men, but definitely this one.
They're going to do what they want to do, they're going to make choices on how to behave. That is not my responsibility, that is their responsibility. And you know this very well.
If you go online acting like a hoebag, do not be surprised when people with no moral standing and poor decision making skills treat you like a hoebag.
Should I be surprised that I get the ever living gak kicked out of me if I go into a biker bar, find three black men and start hurling racial slurs at them for "Teh luls?"
Slut-shaming and comparing the sale of used water to racism is really highlighting your objectivity, here.
It's just a total coincidence that you're damning Belle Delphine because "she isn't accountable" - assuming, without deciding, that it is even true - while you twist and squirm to avoid the obvious conclusion that the accountability you demand from her applies equally to the people sending her unsolicited sexual material; a behaviour that, for whatever reason, you're eagerly defending and excusing.
Does she play to the audience that she is attracting? Yes or no?
If you go online acting sexist, don't be surprised if people treat you like you are sexist...
I'm confused though, is that personal responsibility, or poor parenting? Declaring 'poor parenting' sounds like the person isn't responsible, the parents are.
Belle Delphine has to be acountable. The degenerates sending her unsolicited sexual material don't.
Not all men, but definitely this one.
They're going to do what they want to do, they're going to make choices on how to behave. That is not my responsibility, that is their responsibility. And you know this very well.
If you go online acting like a hoebag, do not be surprised when people with no moral standing and poor decision making skills treat you like a hoebag.
Should I be surprised that I get the ever living gak kicked out of me if I go into a biker bar, find three black men and start hurling racial slurs at them for "Teh luls?"
Slut-shaming and comparing the sale of used water to racism is really highlighting your objectivity, here.
Don't forget the implicit assertions that she is irresponsible, indecent and disrespectful. And the explicit, ahem, 'arguments' that she's "a hoebag" and engaging in "risky behaviour".
So it's totally her fault that people send her unsolicited sexual material. Because reasons that definitely aren't naked assertions, or personal opinion passing as established fact.
Excommunicatus wrote: And, FWIW, no I would not be surprised if you received a kicking for hurling hate speech around.
Also, FWIW, I am Jack's complete lack of surprise that you just casually equated selling bathwater to racism.
It's nice, but you know very well exactly what I am talking about here. You know that I do not support any kind of hate-speech or harassment of ANY people. Irregardless of the fact, you also know that humans are responsible for their behaviors, and that includes those who choose to promote specific types of cultures in order to gain financially.
This person getting harassed is wrong.
The people harassing this person are wrong.
The person being harassed has put herself into a community that is widely known for being harassers.
A+B=C. Does that really surprise you? Should she be surprised?
What is the old adage, "talk gak, get hit" I think?
Do not be surprised if lewd behavior illicit's lewd behavior.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AdeptSister wrote: You are right that one could argue that the selling of bathwater is not sex work and I am not going to challenge that.
But, like always, these threads are useful for finding more about my fellow Dakka Dakka members.
I'm not sure it equates to sex work. I think it fits more into meme culture. The girl in question has a significant "chan" type presence online. Do a little research on her and you'll find a lot more risky behavior than just some innocent PR stunts involving bath water.
Voss wrote: If you go online acting sexist, don't be surprised if people treat you like you are sexist...
I'm confused though, is that personal responsibility, or poor parenting? Declaring 'poor parenting' sounds like the person isn't responsible, the parents are.
I'm not sure to be honest, if you've never been thought the proper way to behave, can you be expected to adhere to a societal standard? At the same time, not being raised properly isn't an excuse for not doing the work to better yourself. Laziness on the part of the person is a big factor too.
In the case of people who abuse each other online, Anonymity also plays a huge roll. The racial example I cited above is pretty clear, calling someone a slur in a face to face situation results in one being in physical danger, whereas the internet is basically a shield that will protect you, if you're smart enough to use it. This is why you don't see the online gamer behavior in hobbies like magic or 40k that often, because out in pubic their are consequences to ones actions.
That being said, I think in all general cases, making it clear that being part of a society means abiding by their laws and being a decent person is a matter of your own personal responsibility is key.
Belle Delphine has to be acountable. The degenerates sending her unsolicited sexual material don't.
Not all men, but definitely this one.
They're going to do what they want to do, they're going to make choices on how to behave. That is not my responsibility, that is their responsibility. And you know this very well.
If you go online acting like a hoebag, do not be surprised when people with no moral standing and poor decision making skills treat you like a hoebag.
Should I be surprised that I get the ever living gak kicked out of me if I go into a biker bar, find three black men and start hurling racial slurs at them for "Teh luls?"
Slut-shaming and comparing the sale of used water to racism is really highlighting your objectivity, here.
Don't forget the implicit assertions that she is irresponsible, indecent and disrespectful. And the explicit, ahem, 'arguments' that she's "a hoebag" and engaging in "risky behaviour".
So it's totally her fault that people send her unsolicited sexual material. Because reasons that definitely aren't naked assertions, or personal opinion passing as established fact.
No, it is not "her fault." No one cares about fault.
She has knowingly or unknowingly (and after researching her, she definitely knows where she is and what she is doing) into a toxic online community. Informed risk and all.
The people who are harassing her bear the responsibility for their actions, no one told them what to do, they just did it. This is because they are poorly developed, immature people who also like to pass blame onto others, instead of standing up and being real men, taking responsibility for their actions and acting with maturity rather than with jovial debauchery.
At the same time, she bears the responsibility for going into that community to participate in it, and to profit from it. She is choosing to capitalize on that lewd culture in order to make money and earn a living. That's her choice. And any responsibility she has with relation to it is in informed decisions.
No point trying to talk sense when ex is around. Out come the blatant logical fallacies and refusal to actually debate because clearly their point holds the high ground and thus is correct.
It's just a total coincidence that you're damning Belle Delphine because "she isn't accountable" - assuming, without deciding, that it is even true - while you twist and squirm to avoid the obvious conclusion that the accountability you demand from her applies equally to the people sending her unsolicited sexual material; a behaviour that, for whatever reason, you're eagerly defending and excusing.
At the very least, I'd be expecting Togusa to be calling out the people sending the unsolicted sexual material. If they didn't, that would call their entire argument about "accountability" into question.
I have. Multiple times, I've explained what their role is in their own personal accountability.
However, I am not a judge. I cannot cast stones at a fellow human being. What more would you like me to do?
Belle Delphine has to be acountable. The degenerates sending her unsolicited sexual material don't.
Not all men, but definitely this one.
They're going to do what they want to do, they're going to make choices on how to behave. That is not my responsibility, that is their responsibility. And you know this very well.
If you go online acting like a hoebag, do not be surprised when people with no moral standing and poor decision making skills treat you like a hoebag.
Should I be surprised that I get the ever living gak kicked out of me if I go into a biker bar, find three black men and start hurling racial slurs at them for "Teh luls?"
Slut-shaming and comparing the sale of used water to racism is really highlighting your objectivity, here.
Don't forget the implicit assertions that she is irresponsible, indecent and disrespectful. And the explicit, ahem, 'arguments' that she's "a hoebag" and engaging in "risky behaviour".
So it's totally her fault that people send her unsolicited sexual material. Because reasons that definitely aren't naked assertions, or personal opinion passing as established fact.
No, it is not "her fault." No one cares about fault.
She has knowingly or unknowingly (and after researching her, she definitely knows where she is and what she is doing) into a toxic online community. Informed risk and all.
The people who are harassing her bear the responsibility for their actions, no one told them what to do, they just did it. This is because they are poorly developed, immature people who also like to pass blame onto others, instead of standing up and being real men, taking responsibility for their actions and acting with maturity rather than with jovial debauchery.
At the same time, she bears the responsibility for going into that community to participate in it, and to profit from it. She is choosing to capitalize on that lewd culture in order to make money and earn a living. That's her choice. And any responsibility she has with relation to it is in informed decisions.
This is what I was saying.. But SCREECH VICTIM BLAMING SCREECH.
Togusa wrote:Does she play to the audience that she is attracting? Yes or no?
Are people entitled to sexually harass her? Do you think people are EVER entitled to sexually harass another? Yes or no?
Togusa wrote:Do not be surprised if lewd behavior illicit's lewd behavior.
But do you think that's acceptable? That's the real question here.
Do a little research on her and you'll find a lot more risky behavior than just some innocent PR stunts involving bath water.
I don't care what she's done. It doesn't excuse people making unwanted sexual judgement or harassment. That is slut-shaming.
No it is not acceptable, as I have stated a dozen times by now.
No people can't just harass her because they feel like it.
It's cool and all, I get it. The youth of today will do anything and everything to avoid taking personal responsibility for their own actions. Victim culture is the narrative of the day, it's here to stay.
If there is a place where terrible people live and prey, and you go there and get mugged, and you knew that this was not a good place to go or to hang out, you bear responsibility for your own action of going there. If you did not understand the risk, that's on you. If you did, then you should have known better. Don't be surprised when people have a hard time feeling sorry for you in that instance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: No point trying to talk sense when ex is around. Out come the blatant logical fallacies and refusal to actually debate because clearly their point holds the high ground and thus is correct.
Irregardless of him, I find this discussion to be a good one. It seems quite civil to me at the moment, which is a good thing.
Belle Delphine has to be acountable. The degenerates sending her unsolicited sexual material don't.
Not all men, but definitely this one.
They're going to do what they want to do, they're going to make choices on how to behave. That is not my responsibility, that is their responsibility. And you know this very well.
If you go online acting like a hoebag, do not be surprised when people with no moral standing and poor decision making skills treat you like a hoebag.
Should I be surprised that I get the ever living gak kicked out of me if I go into a biker bar, find three black men and start hurling racial slurs at them for "Teh luls?"
Slut-shaming and comparing the sale of used water to racism is really highlighting your objectivity, here.
Don't forget the implicit assertions that she is irresponsible, indecent and disrespectful. And the explicit, ahem, 'arguments' that she's "a hoebag" and engaging in "risky behaviour".
So it's totally her fault that people send her unsolicited sexual material. Because reasons that definitely aren't naked assertions, or personal opinion passing as established fact.
No, it is not "her fault." No one cares about fault.
She has knowingly or unknowingly (and after researching her, she definitely knows where she is and what she is doing) into a toxic online community. Informed risk and all.
The people who are harassing her bear the responsibility for their actions, no one told them what to do, they just did it. This is because they are poorly developed, immature people who also like to pass blame onto others, instead of standing up and being real men, taking responsibility for their actions and acting with maturity rather than with jovial debauchery.
At the same time, she bears the responsibility for going into that community to participate in it, and to profit from it. She is choosing to capitalize on that lewd culture in order to make money and earn a living. That's her choice. And any responsibility she has with relation to it is in informed decisions.
This is what I was saying.. But SCREECH VICTIM BLAMING SCREECH.
That's the issue of the day. This is why I cannot put myself in any political camp, everyone focuses on finding someone to make a monster out of, and someone to victimize or make a victim out of. Then, once this goal is attained, any discussion of responsibility of the individual is tossed out the window. It's a common tactic used by both the left and the right in America to shut down discussions that use logic to skirt someones attempt at rigging the conversation.
At the very least, I'd be expecting Togusa to be calling out the people sending the unsolicted sexual material. If they didn't, that would call their entire argument about "accountability" into question.
I have. Multiple times, I've explained what their role is in their own personal accountability.
However, I am not a judge. I cannot cast stones at a fellow human being.
Really? You're throwing a lot of stones at Delphine, and not at the people degrading her. In fact, the only time I've seen you actually address those commenters directly was in response to me calling you out on it here.
Yet against Delphine? You created a thread about it, using language that paints her actions in a negative aspect, and most of your posts are in opposition to her. What was that about "throwing stones"? Take some responsibility.
What more would you like me to do?
Stop slut-shaming and victim-blaming. Quite simple, really.
Togusa wrote:Does she play to the audience that she is attracting? Yes or no?
Are people entitled to sexually harass her? Do you think people are EVER entitled to sexually harass another? Yes or no?
Togusa wrote:Do not be surprised if lewd behavior illicit's lewd behavior.
But do you think that's acceptable? That's the real question here.
Do a little research on her and you'll find a lot more risky behavior than just some innocent PR stunts involving bath water.
I don't care what she's done. It doesn't excuse people making unwanted sexual judgement or harassment. That is slut-shaming.
No it is not acceptable, as I have stated a dozen times by now.
So why do you think that it's Delphine's fault for doing things in a "toxic environment", when it's not her making it toxic?
No people can't just harass her because they feel like it.
But apparently they can, because she should have known better? That's equally ridiculous.
It's cool and all, I get it. The youth of today will do anything and everything to avoid taking personal responsibility for their own actions. Victim culture is the narrative of the day, it's here to stay.
So if you ask for terrible people to stop harassing you, you're just being a victim?
And people like you wonder why rape victims don't come forward.
If there is a place where terrible people live and prey, and you go there and get mugged, and you knew that this was not a good place to go or to hang out, you bear responsibility for your own action of going there. If you did not understand the risk, that's on you. If you did, then you should have known better. Don't be surprised when people have a hard time feeling sorry for you in that instance.
Or maybe people shouldn't just tut and say "oh well, you should have known better" and instead actually get off their high horse and do something about the environment their laziness has caused.
We don't blame people for owning a TV if it gets stolen by a thief. But clearly, you think that they should be to blame as well, and should take responsibility for owning at TV.
For all your talk of "responsibility", your overzealousness in blaming Delphine and those aforementioned twitch streamers I mentioned shows a blatant bias against them, and not the people actually causing the toxic problems in that environment. By blaming the victims, you are allowing for an acceptance of those toxic environments, which causes the harassment of those people. Therefore, you are responsible for allowing those environments to exist.
What are you going to do about that, seeing as you're all about people taking responsibility for things?
nfe wrote: I presume you take the same position when someone gets stabbed walking home late at night? An aid worker gets abducted and beheaded in Syria?
The first thing you do is clarify that whilst the aggressor was also at fault, they shouldn't have put themselves in that position, right?
When someone gets stabbed walking home at night from work, they're the victim of a crime.
If someone leaves work, goes into a bad neighborhood with the intent on purchasing drugs, and gets stabbed, that's a crime, that was also avoidable.
When an Aid worker in Syria gets abducted and killed, that is a crime. However, they took the chance and presumably knew the risks that such a thing would happen by going to a warzone to provide aid. This would be an example of informed consent.
We tend to call the former person (the one who got stabbed while doing something illegal) a moron, and the latter person (the Syrian aid worker) a hero.
nfe wrote: I presume you take the same position when someone gets stabbed walking home late at night? An aid worker gets abducted and beheaded in Syria?
The first thing you do is clarify that whilst the aggressor was also at fault, they shouldn't have put themselves in that position, right?
When someone gets stabbed walking home at night from work, they're the victim of a crime.
Is abuse and harassment not a crime?
If someone leaves work, goes into a bad neighborhood with the intent on purchasing drugs, and gets stabbed, that's a crime, that was also avoidable.
Is wearing certain clothes and behaving "lewd" a crime?
No it is not acceptable, as I have stated a dozen times by now.
No people can't just harass her because they feel like it.
You've referred her rather consistently by pejoratives for someone stating you aren't judging and don't consider harassment acceptable. .
That's the issue of the day. This is why I cannot put myself in any political camp, everyone focuses on finding someone to make a monster out of, and someone to victimize or make a victim out of. Then, once this goal is attained, any discussion of responsibility of the individual is tossed out the window. It's a common tactic used by both the left and the right in America to shut down discussions that use logic to skirt someones attempt at rigging the conversation.
You fit in a political identity just fine. Your OP and continued condemnation of this woman makes it pretty clear that you want to make a monster of her and/or victimize her.
At _best_, you want her to stop (at least in the OP), but you've ceased framing it that way. Now she's just a "hoebag," but sure, claim you aren't throwing stones.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Well it's the reason I've never gone to any of those countries without a high powered rifle.
I do it all the time. It's fine. And worthwhile.
For clarity, though, every time a foreigner is murdered your first response is 'Take the rough with the smooth'. When pressed, you'll agree that 'oF course, ISIS were in the wrong, but you know what you're setting yourself up for, right?
Every policeman that was murdered by the IRA? Every lone walker murdered at night?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Well it's the reason I've never gone to any of those countries without a high powered rifle.
I do it all the time. It's fine. And worthwhile.
For clarity, though, every time a foreigner is murdered your first response is 'Take the rough with the smooth'. When pressed, you'll agree that 'oF course, ISIS were in the wrong, but you know what you're setting yourself up for, right?
Every policeman that was murdered by the IRA? Every lone walker murdered at night?
The other person was at fault BUT...
If so, yeesh, but fair enough. If not, why not?
Furthermore, if that's genuinely the argument they're going to use, that opens up a WHOLE load of slippery slopes.
"Oh, that bank lost all your money? Serves you right for using that bank!"
"You got aggressively confronted by a cop because your skin colour prejudiced them against you? Guess you shouldn't have lived in America!"
"You got stoned to death in Brunei because you're gay? Guess you shouldn't have been gay, or lived in Brunei!"
"Got food poisoning? Serves you right for eating at XYZ!"
"School shooting? Shouldn't have gone to school!"
This is ridiculous. We should blame the perpetrator for crimes, not the people it happens to, simply because they happened to be near where the crime was.
Guys, there's a difference of scale in the crime here...
Are you really equating being murdered with receiving lewd images or messages on the internet? Seriously?
If you dive in a pool of sewage, you gotta expect to have some stick to you when you get out. Gamer culture on the internet is toxic and full of absolute garbage people. If you get involved with that in any way, you can expect inappropriate messages to come back at you.
It sucks, but it's a terrible, toxic subculture. Unlike in real life where you may have to walk through bad areas, you can choose to just not interact with "gamer" culture.
Really? You're throwing a lot of stones at Delphine, and not at the people degrading her. In fact, the only time I've seen you actually address those commenters directly was in response to me calling you out on it here.
Yet against Delphine? You created a thread about it, using language that paints her actions in a negative aspect, and most of your posts are in opposition to her. What was that about "throwing stones"? Take some responsibility.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that discussing the actions of the streamer in question was me "throwing stones" at her. I thought I was talking about her behavior and how it related to the problem.
Let me be clear.
When a girl goes onto twitch.tv to stream a session of her playing Deep Rock Galactic with some friends, and receives unsolicited dick picks, she has been the victim of immature people.
When a girl goes onto twitch.tv and purposefully uses meme culture, revealing clothing and blatant sexualized movements and speech in order to profit from men who are desperate enough to give her money, she is cultivating the behavior the first girl got, on purpose.
Stop slut-shaming and victim-blaming. Quite simple, really.
I've no interest in buzz words meant to shut down open discussion.
So why do you think that it's Delphine's fault for doing things in a "toxic environment", when it's not her making it toxic?
Interesting. Egging on behavior to make money isn't her contributing to the toxic environment?
If you compare her to other twitch streamers, is she more like Pokimane, or Brittany Venti? Bonus points if you can tell me the difference between the two and why that matters.
But apparently they can, because she should have known better? That's equally ridiculous.
You all really seem to be hung up on this. Calling it like it is, isn't supporting it and saying its okay.
Some countries in Africa and the middle east are plagued with sectarian violence, rape and murder. It's not okay, but it is the reality of the situation and cannot be changed by soft language and talk. Deep roots and all.
So if you ask for terrible people to stop harassing you, you're just being a victim? And people like you wonder why rape victims don't come forward.[/spoiler]
Don't assume what I wonder about please. And, no, asking for people to stop harassing you isn't you being a victim. Going to a place where harassment is common, doing the very behavior that eggs on said harassment in order to make money, and then crying when the harassment then occurs is what happens when someone "plays" being a victim, instead of actually being a victim. See the above examples of a normal girl playing games on twitch and a person just walking home from work, as compared to the other two in each case and play spot the difference.
Or maybe people shouldn't just tut and say "oh well, you should have known better" and instead actually get off their high horse and do something about the environment their laziness has caused.
Uh-oh! So I am to blame for bad cultures. L O L.
We don't blame people for owning a TV if it gets stolen by a thief. But clearly, you think that they should be to blame as well, and should take responsibility for owning at TV.
Clearly, I don't. But it's really hard to argue against a personal responsibility narrative and young people especially get mad when they learn how life actually works.
You know, if you have sex, with no protection and you get a girl pregnant. Well, that was your dumb mistake.
If you have sex, with protection, and the protections fails, and you get a girl pregnant, that's called an accident. You're still responsible, but you did do everything right. You were responsible for your actions by acting as safe as you could.
What are you going to do about that, seeing as you're all about people taking responsibility for things?
Personal responsibility.
But, just to be a little nice, I do help. By not being a toxic piece of gak to people, by not sending nude photos to random women online, or looking at celebrity nude leaks or any of the thousands of other gaking things people do in this world. If that's not enough for you, too bad.
Victim blaming, slut shaming, what's next on the incel checklist? Arguing that the people sending offensive messages are really "nice guys" and blaming feminism for allowing women to say no to them and forcing them to be desperate creeps?
Horst wrote: Guys, there's a difference of scale in the crime here...
Are you really equating being murdered with receiving lewd images or messages on the internet? Seriously?
If you dive in a pool of sewage, you gotta expect to have some stick to you when you get out. Gamer culture on the internet is toxic and full of absolute garbage people. If you get involved with that in any way, you can expect inappropriate messages to come back at you.
It sucks, but it's a terrible, toxic subculture. Unlike in real life where you may have to walk through bad areas, you can choose to just not interact with "gamer" culture.
Well, yeah. That is the 'argument'.
But that 'argument' was not raised by the side that has been so eloquently encapsulated as SCREECH VICTIM BLAMING SCREECH by our resident third-rate Rod Liddle impersonator. With all bits of gravy on him.
It was raised to exclude conduct that absolutely is a crime from other conduct that is absolutely a crime - nonsensically - by the side that is bravely and heroically defending entrenched privilege and attempting to dictate what is and is not acceptable, foreseeable and, somehow, therefore justifiable according to personal peccadilloes that they have learnt but consider innate.
No it is not acceptable, as I have stated a dozen times by now. No people can't just harass her because they feel like it.
You've referred her rather consistently by pejoratives for someone stating you aren't judging and don't consider harassment acceptable. .
That's the issue of the day. This is why I cannot put myself in any political camp, everyone focuses on finding someone to make a monster out of, and someone to victimize or make a victim out of. Then, once this goal is attained, any discussion of responsibility of the individual is tossed out the window. It's a common tactic used by both the left and the right in America to shut down discussions that use logic to skirt someones attempt at rigging the conversation.
You fit in a political identity just fine. Your OP and continued condemnation of this woman makes it pretty clear that you want to make a monster of her and/or victimize her. At _best_, you want her to stop (at least in the OP), but you've ceased framing it that way. Now she's just a "hoebag," but sure, claim you aren't throwing stones.
She is the topic of the post is she not?
She is toxic, people like her use this as a shield while they make a tidy profit and hurt actual women gamers online. What is supremely ironic is that while she is turning it around on the incel like communities online, she's also taking the piss on the more progressive communities that want to fight for her. Playing both sides for gain.
I didn't call her a hoebag, I'm used it as a descriptive term to explain the behavior she goes for in a lot of her videos. Nice try though.
Horst wrote: Guys, there's a difference of scale in the crime here...
Are you really equating being murdered with receiving lewd images or messages on the internet? Seriously?
According to some people, the victim is at least somewhat to blame too. So I see no reason they can't be equated.
These same people see no issue in calling what attractive streamers do "pornography", so again, I think this is easily par for the course.
If you dive in a pool of sewage, you gotta expect to have some stick to you when you get out. Gamer culture on the internet is toxic and full of absolute garbage people.
Sewage isn't a person. Sewage is a non-sentient, non-living object. Culture is people.
If sewage affected you, it didn't do it of it's own action, because it's literally not alive. If a person affacted you, that's because they took action.
For the person who was aghast with people comparing crimes with crimes, it's funny that you're comparing people with literal inanimate trash.
If you get involved with that in any way, you can expect inappropriate messages to come back at you.
This is the problem. You expect and allow for people to continue to be inappropriate instead of actually doing something about it and refusing to accept it.
It sucks, but it's a terrible, toxic subculture. Unlike in real life where you may have to walk through bad areas, you can choose to just not interact with "gamer" culture.
Maybe the responsible thing to do is to dismantle that toxic subculture, if you genuinely think it is toxic, like you say.
Maybe the bad area is where you have to walk to go to work. Maybe it's your school. Maybe it's your country. Maybe it's the whole planet. You can't just keep saying "well, you were in a bad place, so you deserve it".
How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.
Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Well it's the reason I've never gone to any of those countries without a high powered rifle.
I do it all the time. It's fine. And worthwhile.
For clarity, though, every time a foreigner is murdered your first response is 'Take the rough with the smooth'. When pressed, you'll agree that 'oF course, ISIS were in the wrong, but you know what you're setting yourself up for, right?
Every policeman that was murdered by the IRA? Every lone walker murdered at night?
Horst wrote: Guys, there's a difference of scale in the crime here...
Are you really equating being murdered with receiving lewd images or messages on the internet? Seriously?
According to some people, the victim is at least somewhat to blame too. So I see no reason they can't be equated.
These same people see no issue in calling what attractive streamers do "pornography", so again, I think this is easily par for the course.
If you dive in a pool of sewage, you gotta expect to have some stick to you when you get out. Gamer culture on the internet is toxic and full of absolute garbage people.
Sewage isn't a person. Sewage is a non-sentient, non-living object. Culture is people.
If sewage affected you, it didn't do it of it's own action, because it's literally not alive.
If a person affacted you, that's because they took action.
For the person who was aghast with people comparing crimes with crimes, it's funny that you're comparing people with literal inanimate trash.
If you get involved with that in any way, you can expect inappropriate messages to come back at you.
This is the problem. You expect and allow for people to continue to be inappropriate instead of actually doing something about it and refusing to accept it.
It sucks, but it's a terrible, toxic subculture. Unlike in real life where you may have to walk through bad areas, you can choose to just not interact with "gamer" culture.
Maybe the responsible thing to do is to dismantle that toxic subculture, if you genuinely think it is toxic, like you say.
Maybe the bad area is where you have to walk to go to work. Maybe it's your school. Maybe it's your country. Maybe it's the whole planet.
You can't just keep saying "well, you were in a bad place, so you deserve it".
Sarge...you can't change human nature in a day, week, year of century.
Toxic culture does suck, and it's on each person to choose not to be a part of that culture. It is not on me to police the next guy however.
2pac once said in an interview that he didn't know how to be responsible for what every black male did, but that he did know how to be responsible for what he did. It'd be nice if more people thought that way these days. Make a better world, I'm all for it, but don't die on a hill fighting lost causes you cannot change.
Peregrine wrote: Victim blaming, slut shaming, what's next on the incel checklist? Arguing that the people sending offensive messages are really "nice guys" and blaming feminism for allowing women to say no to them and forcing them to be desperate creeps?
I do believe we've jumped to 'aggressive self defense' against foreigners who are 'that way' because its 'just reality' and 'deep roots,' so things escalated quite a bit faster than expected.
Togusa wrote:She is the topic of the post is she not?
Unfortunately yes. That would be the root of the issue- the premise that the poor behavior isn't the problem, but the one woman is.
I didn't call her a hoebag, I'm used it as a descriptive term to explain the behavior she goes for in a lot of her videos. Nice try though.
Horst wrote: How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.
Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.
HERE HERE.
The best way to do so is to
A. Don't be that person in the first place.
B. When you have your own kids, teach them, raise them and love them.
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
Horst wrote: Guys, there's a difference of scale in the crime here...
Are you really equating being murdered with receiving lewd images or messages on the internet? Seriously?
According to some people, the victim is at least somewhat to blame too. So I see no reason they can't be equated.
These same people see no issue in calling what attractive streamers do "pornography", so again, I think this is easily par for the course.
If you dive in a pool of sewage, you gotta expect to have some stick to you when you get out. Gamer culture on the internet is toxic and full of absolute garbage people.
Sewage isn't a person. Sewage is a non-sentient, non-living object. Culture is people.
If sewage affected you, it didn't do it of it's own action, because it's literally not alive.
If a person affacted you, that's because they took action.
For the person who was aghast with people comparing crimes with crimes, it's funny that you're comparing people with literal inanimate trash.
If you get involved with that in any way, you can expect inappropriate messages to come back at you.
This is the problem. You expect and allow for people to continue to be inappropriate instead of actually doing something about it and refusing to accept it.
It sucks, but it's a terrible, toxic subculture. Unlike in real life where you may have to walk through bad areas, you can choose to just not interact with "gamer" culture.
Maybe the responsible thing to do is to dismantle that toxic subculture, if you genuinely think it is toxic, like you say.
Maybe the bad area is where you have to walk to go to work. Maybe it's your school. Maybe it's your country. Maybe it's the whole planet.
You can't just keep saying "well, you were in a bad place, so you deserve it".
Also, saying it happened isn't saying you deserved it.
Peregrine wrote: Victim blaming, slut shaming, what's next on the incel checklist? Arguing that the people sending offensive messages are really "nice guys" and blaming feminism for allowing women to say no to them and forcing them to be desperate creeps?
I do believe we've jumped to 'aggressive self defense' against foreigners who are 'that way' because its 'just reality' and 'deep roots,' so things escalated quite a bit faster than expected.
Togusa wrote:She is the topic of the post is she not?
Unfortunately yes. That would be the root of the issue- the premise that the poor behavior isn't the problem, but the one woman is.
I didn't call her a hoebag, I'm used it as a descriptive term to explain the behavior she goes for in a lot of her videos. Nice try though.
It isn't a noun, it's an adjective!
It's unfortunate, but sometimes the drive for fame and money can turn the best of people into the worst.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
People are clearly defending it. It isn't everyone, but it ranges from the passive 'well nothing can be done, so whatever' to the active 'it is the woman's fault for encouraging it.'
Stating out-right that it isn't acceptable, and people should be punished for doing it is, in fact, a step in the right direction. Just one, but saying 'No, you don't get to do this' (or, rather sadly, 'No, you can't drag us back to this') is how things start.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
Exactly, none of us in this thread wants this behavior to continue.
Have you heard of that game Mordhau? It's a really fun game, but I ended up refunding it because the community was so freaking toxic that I couldn't stand it. I didn't want my money to go to that project, the things I heard in game chat were horrifying. And that was in about 1.5 hours of play.
1.5 hours.
I don't want this toxic gak anywhere near me, and that includes men or women to masquerade in the culture for profit, they are part of the problem and should be chastised in this discussion. It is unfortunate that some believe this equates to me saying they deserve what they get, or that I am buzzwording them to dismiss them. But that's also a part of life.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
I'm assuming that you can in fact read English, have read the thread and have at least some basic awareness of your own posts.
Do please correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect.
Yes, part of the solution is to pursue criminal prosecutions. None of those things are insurmountable, merely reflective of an ignorance of the subject matter. In the long-term, the solution is to stop defending these asshats - which you and others absolutely are doing - by shifting the blame to the victim - which you and others also absolutely are doing - by pretending that this is some innate and preordained state of affairs beyond any kind of rectification, rather than an exercise in male privilege and the domination of the patriarchy.
So, smash the patriarchy. Just, you know, don't attach too much credence to Andrea Dworkin.
Peregrine wrote: Victim blaming, slut shaming, what's next on the incel checklist? Arguing that the people sending offensive messages are really "nice guys" and blaming feminism for allowing women to say no to them and forcing them to be desperate creeps?
I do believe we've jumped to 'aggressive self defense' against foreigners who are 'that way' because its 'just reality' and 'deep roots,' so things escalated quite a bit faster than expected.
Togusa wrote:She is the topic of the post is she not?
Unfortunately yes. That would be the root of the issue- the premise that the poor behavior isn't the problem, but the one woman is.
I didn't call her a hoebag, I'm used it as a descriptive term to explain the behavior she goes for in a lot of her videos. Nice try though.
It isn't a noun, it's an adjective!
It's unfortunate, but sometimes the drive for fame and money can turn the best of people into the worst.
Zero of the harassers (the people actually in the wrong) are doing it for fame or money.
If people in this thread are somehow getting fame and money out of it, I'd love to know how.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
People are clearly defending it. It isn't everyone, but it ranges from the passive 'well nothing can be done, so whatever' to the active 'it is the woman's fault for encouraging it.'
Stating out-right that it isn't acceptable, and people should be punished for doing it is, in fact, a step in the right direction. Just one, but saying 'No, you don't get to do this' (or, rather sadly, 'No, you can't drag us back to this') is how things start.
Form where I sit not one person in this thread has defended it. I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that I see all of you are quite opposed to the behavior.
Stating out-right that it isn't acceptable, and people should be punished for doing it is, in fact, a step in the right direction.
It's meaningless.
You cannot punish the majority of these people, because they are anonymous users. For all you know some of them could be members of this forum, and you'd never know it.
The best way to fight it is to not be it and to raise the next generation to be better. "calling it out" isn't going to do a damn thing, and even then, multiple people, myself included have called it out in this thread.
Peregrine wrote: Victim blaming, slut shaming, what's next on the incel checklist? Arguing that the people sending offensive messages are really "nice guys" and blaming feminism for allowing women to say no to them and forcing them to be desperate creeps?
I do believe we've jumped to 'aggressive self defense' against foreigners who are 'that way' because its 'just reality' and 'deep roots,' so things escalated quite a bit faster than expected.
Togusa wrote:She is the topic of the post is she not?
Unfortunately yes. That would be the root of the issue- the premise that the poor behavior isn't the problem, but the one woman is.
I didn't call her a hoebag, I'm used it as a descriptive term to explain the behavior she goes for in a lot of her videos. Nice try though.
It isn't a noun, it's an adjective!
It's unfortunate, but sometimes the drive for fame and money can turn the best of people into the worst.
Zero of the harassers (the people actually in the wrong) are doing it for fame or money.
If people in this thread are somehow getting fame and money out of it, I'd love to know how.
I think you misunderstand.
Some of the people in the community, such as the girl this thread is about, do it for fame and money. In the process, they contribute to the thing that hurts everyone else.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
I'm assuming that you can in fact read English, have read the thread and have at least some basic awareness of your own posts.
Do please correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect.
Yes, part of the solution is to pursue criminal prosecutions. None of those things are insurmountable, merely reflective of an ignorance of the subject matter. In the long-term, the solution is to stop defending these asshats - which you and others absolutely are doing - by shifting the blame to the victim - which you and others also absolutely are doing - by pretending that this is some innate and preordained state of affairs beyond any kind of rectification, rather than an exercise in male privilege and the domination of the patriarchy.
So, smash the patriarchy. Just, you know, don't attach too much credence to Andrea Dworkin.
No, we are not defending them. How freaking dense are you?
Horst wrote: How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.
Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.
First, willingness to buy bath water does not automatically make you toxic. So it doesn't have to affect her money source. You are also making a lot of negative assumptions of her clientele just based on the actions of trolls who may just hate what she is doing.
Second, the way you dismantle a toxic subculture (or any culture) is to challenge it. And for me, I define "toxic" as actively hurting or attempting to hurt other people. If you throw up you hands and say "It's too hard to do something!" that doesn't help make change. And you don't necessary has to complete eradicate it, just make not acceptable.
People challenge things all the time and society change. It just takes work and constant vigilance.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
I'm assuming that you can in fact read English, have read the thread and have at least some basic awareness of your own posts.
Do please correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect.
Yes, part of the solution is to pursue criminal prosecutions. None of those things are insurmountable, merely reflective of an ignorance of the subject matter. In the long-term, the solution is to stop defending these asshats - which you and others absolutely are doing - by shifting the blame to the victim - which you and others also absolutely are doing - by pretending that this is some innate and preordained state of affairs beyond any kind of rectification, rather than an exercise in male privilege and the domination of the patriarchy.
So, smash the patriarchy. Just, you know, don't attach too much credence to Andrea Dworkin.
Ah, I see. So your not interested in discussing this. Thanks for confirming, have a good day. I will not be responding further, and I will set you to ignore going forward.
Saying 'nothing can be done' _is_ defending it. Passively to be sure, but it certainly isn't going to raise 'the next generation' to be better. It tells them that it's acceptable behavior, and they shouldn't bother either.
Far from calling it out, you've contributed to it.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?
Well, that was a bit direct, but...
Societal issues are hard as hell to solve because they're societal. I remember a teacher in college once working himself into a corner by saying all cultures should 100% be respected, and then having to backtrack after a student mentioned "boy play" culture in the Afghanistan National Military when he realized, "oh gak, okay, maybe not everything cultural is a good thing after-all."
This stuff is complex. We could go into the harassers and start asking why they do what they do and what lead them to their current views and place in life, and that would be a massive can of worms, complex psychology and sociology.
Ah, I see. So your not interested in discussing this. Thanks for confirming, have a good day. I will not be responding further, and I will set you to ignore going forward.
As with the previous massive cop-out, I wish you luck.
Perhaps someone won't notice I provided exactly what you asked for and you just pretended I didn't.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?
Well, that was a bit direct, but...
Societal issues are hard as hell to solve because they're societal. I remember a teacher in college once working himself into a corner by saying all cultures should 100% be respected, and then having to backtrack after a student mentioned "boy play" culture in the Afghanistan National Military when he realized, "oh gak, okay, maybe not everything cultural is a good thing after-all."
This stuff is complex. We could go into the harassers and start asking why they do what they do and what lead them to their current views and place in life, and that would be a massive can of worms, complex psychology and sociology.
Horst wrote: How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.
Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.
First, willingness to buy bath water does not automatically make you toxic. So it doesn't have to affect her money source. You are also making a lot of negative assumptions of her clientele just based on the actions of trolls who may just hate what she is doing.
Second, the way you dismantle a toxic subculture (or any culture) is to challenge it. And for me, I define "toxic" as actively hurting or attempting to hurt other people. If you throw up you hands and say "It's too hard to do something!" that doesn't help make change. And you don't necessary has to complete eradicate it, just make not acceptable.
People challenge things all the time and society change. It just takes work and constant vigilance.
I'd like to propose adding that toxic should be defined as hurting others, and the community as a whole. Individual actions can have far reaching consequences, and if you're stoking the flames by playing to the culture, that will fan the flames beyond what one might have intended.
Horst wrote: Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?
Well, that was a bit direct, but...
Societal issues are hard as hell to solve because they're societal. I remember a teacher in college once working himself into a corner by saying all cultures should 100% be respected, and then having to backtrack after a student mentioned "boy play" culture in the Afghanistan National Military when he realized, "oh gak, okay, maybe not everything cultural is a good thing after-all."
This stuff is complex. We could go into the harassers and start asking why they do what they do and what lead them to their current views and place in life, and that would be a massive can of worms, complex psychology and sociology.
I was agreeing with you.
I know. I was just adding content. The point was to point out that people often resort to victim blaming and straw-manning because these topics are incredibly complex and cannot easily be solved. It's easier to flail than it is to talk about the base issues, because they make us uncomfortable
Really? You're throwing a lot of stones at Delphine, and not at the people degrading her. In fact, the only time I've seen you actually address those commenters directly was in response to me calling you out on it here.
Yet against Delphine? You created a thread about it, using language that paints her actions in a negative aspect, and most of your posts are in opposition to her. What was that about "throwing stones"? Take some responsibility.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that discussing the actions of the streamer in question was me "throwing stones" at her. I thought I was talking about her behavior and how it related to the problem.
It absolutely is. You're passing negative judgement and condemn her actions. That's throwing stones.
What on earth do you define "throwing stones" as?
Let me be clear.
When a girl goes onto twitch.tv to stream a session of her playing Deep Rock Galactic with some friends, and receives unsolicited dick picks, she has been the victim of immature people.
"But maybe she shouldn't have been on Twitch, a site notorious for people making sexually aggressive remarks towards women!"
When a girl goes onto twitch.tv and purposefully uses meme culture, revealing clothing and blatant sexualized movements and speech in order to profit from men who are desperate enough to give her money, she is cultivating the behavior the first girl got, on purpose.
She does not deserve to be sexually degraded. End of. Do you think that a woman in a club dancing in a certain way, wearing skimpy clothing, is "cultivating behaviour"?
Blame the "men who are desperate enough to give her money". If they "took responsibility", surely it's their fault for giving her money and enabling her streaming? After all, it's not like she's extorting the money from them.
Stop slut-shaming and victim-blaming. Quite simple, really.
I've no interest in buzz words meant to shut down open discussion.
"I'm going to avoid responsibility for my terrible opinions by blaming "buzzwords", because I'm know I'm in the wrong".
So why do you think that it's Delphine's fault for doing things in a "toxic environment", when it's not her making it toxic?
Interesting. Egging on behavior to make money isn't her contributing to the toxic environment?
No. She didn't create the environment, and she isn't handing herself monetary incentives to keep doing it. If you have a problem with her lifestyle, blame the people enabling it.
If you compare her to other twitch streamers, is she more like Pokimane, or Brittany Venti? Bonus points if you can tell me the difference between the two and why that matters.
I have no idea who they are, nor do I care. No twitch streamer deserves to be victim-blamed, or to be sexually degraded. Simple.
But apparently they can, because she should have known better? That's equally ridiculous.
You all really seem to be hung up on this. Calling it like it is, isn't supporting it and saying its okay.
But you're INCREDIBLY fixated on Delphine. Like, you created a topic about HER, not the people throwing money at her. The VAST majority of your posts on this topic (which you created) are focused on HER , not on the people who created the "toxic environment" that you're comparatively quiet about.
Some countries in Africa and the middle east are plagued with sectarian violence, rape and murder. It's not okay, but it is the reality of the situation and cannot be changed by soft language and talk. Deep roots and all.
So what, you're just going to accept it? What about racism in America? Homophobia in Russia? Xenophobia in England? You're just going to accept them too?
Or are you going to take responsibility for the good of other people who are more vulnerable, and speak out against it?
So if you ask for terrible people to stop harassing you, you're just being a victim? And people like you wonder why rape victims don't come forward.
Don't assume what I wonder about please.
Why not? Your comments have been painting a VERY worrying image of you, and you're hardly saying anything to make me think anything else of you.
And, no, asking for people to stop harassing you isn't you being a victim. Going to a place where harassment is common, doing the very behavior that eggs on said harassment in order to make money, and then crying when the harassment then occurs is what happens when someone "plays" being a victim, instead of actually being a victim.
Why are they only "playing" the victim, and not actually the victim? Sounds like you're just ignoring what happens to some people because their lifestyle is immoral according to you.
It is not their fault if the environment they're in is rife with harassment. It is the fault of the people who cause the harassment in that environment.
See the above examples of a normal girl playing games on twitch and a person just walking home from work, as compared to the other two in each case and play spot the difference.
They're exactly the same. Neither person deserves it.
Or maybe people shouldn't just tut and say "oh well, you should have known better" and instead actually get off their high horse and do something about the environment their laziness has caused.
Uh-oh! So I am to blame for bad cultures. L O L.
You're absolutely to blame for the propagation of them, if continue to focus more on blaming the people who "should have known better" by being in those environments, and not the people causing those environments to be toxic.
Sorry, what happened to you accepting responsibility?
We don't blame people for owning a TV if it gets stolen by a thief. But clearly, you think that they should be to blame as well, and should take responsibility for owning at TV.
Clearly, I don't.
"Clearly"? According to your comments, you absolutely think that.
But it's really hard to argue against a personal responsibility narrative and young people especially get mad when they learn how life actually works.
Sorry, what? You think that people should just accept abuse and crime and harassment against them, because "that's just how life works"? Christ.
You know, if you have sex, with no protection and you get a girl pregnant. Well, that was your dumb mistake.
Yes, it was. No-one's saying it wasn't, but this is different from the other examples given, because there was no offender and no victim.
What are you going to do about that, seeing as you're all about people taking responsibility for things?
Personal responsibility.
Yeah, your personal responsibility for not calling out harassers, abusers, and toxic people, and instead blaming the victims of those said incidents.
But, just to be a little nice, I do help. By not being a toxic piece of gak to people, by not sending nude photos to random women online, or looking at celebrity nude leaks or any of the thousands of other gaking things people do in this world. If that's not enough for you, too bad.
That's good. But you're also victim blaming and slut shaming. I'm just doing my part by calling that out, so you can recognise that behaviour. If that's too much for you, too bad.
Horst wrote:How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.
So what, you're just going to accept other people being scum and do literally nothing about it?
Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.
I haven't got a problem with that.
Your last sentence, which I imagine you meant as some kind of "sting", tells me you vastly misunderstand my point.
I'm not saying Delphine's work should always exist. I'm saying that blaming her for doing is is wrong, and instead, you should blame the people throwing the money into it.
Delphine needing to get a new job would be a small price to pay for her, and other people, not being sexually harassed, in my eyes.
Togusa wrote:Sarge...you can't change human nature in a day, week, year of century.
No, I can't. But I should take responsibility and do EVERYTHING I can. Not just cop out of it, avoid responsibility, and say "well, it's just human nature, you've just got to get over it" when people are being harassed, abused, and degraded. If you're one of those people who DOES dismiss it by saying "well, what can *I* do about it", you're part of the problem.
Toxic culture does suck, and it's on each person to choose not to be a part of that culture. It is not on me to police the next guy however.
Really? You seem more than happy to act as some moral arbiter on Delphine. You created a thread to "discuss" (read - complain about) her. The vast majority of your posts in this thread are calling her actions immoral, and saying she (and "young people") should take responsibility.
But sure, that's not policing, is it?
For what it's worth, if you see someone harassing someone else because of their gender, their race, or for whatever reason, then it IS your responsibility to police them. If you let them go, and don't report it, call it out, or stand up against it, you are neglecting your responsibilities.
Make a better world, I'm all for it, but don't die on a hill fighting lost causes you cannot change.
And what makes you so sure it can't be changed? People said that about slavery. People said it about LGBT rights. If you lack the ambition to want to help others, that's on you.
Togusa wrote:A. Don't be that person in the first place.
B. When you have your own kids, teach them, raise them and love them.
C. Call it out when you see it, never tolerate it, and stand up against it.
Those first two are great, but without the 3rd, you're not dealing with the current problems, you're tolerating them, and hoping someone else does. That's not good enough.
Horst wrote:Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.
Nobody is defending it.
Anyone claiming that "there's nothing we can do about it" or "she should have known better" is defending it. To greater or lesser degrees, perhaps, but yes, they're defending it.
Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it.
Nonsense.
What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?
Yes, they should be. If they're from a foreign country, it should be treated as the same, and in the same way as other crimes that are committed between two countries. Anonymous barely exists online - if you genuinely think that these harassers cannot be tracked down by justice enforcement agencies working with the platforms they're operating on, then I think you're overestimating their anonymity.
Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.
That's my solution. Treat it as a crime, and enforce it as such.
Togusa wrote:Saying it happened isn't saying you deserved it.
No, but saying "she should have known better by being in this environment, the environment that we just accept because 'we can't do anything about it' and allow to prosper" IS saying she deserved it.
Voss wrote:Saying 'nothing can be done' _is_ defending it. Passively to be sure, but it certainly isn't going to raise 'the next generation' to be better. It tells them that it's acceptable behavior, and they shouldn't bother either.
Far from calling it out, you've contributed to it.
Togusa wrote: The best way to fight it is to not be it and to raise the next generation to be better. "calling it out" isn't going to do a damn thing, and even then, multiple people, myself included have called it out in this thread.
Nonsense. Calling people out absolutely does something. It informs these people that what they are doing is completely unacceptable and they are not welcome in polite society until they stop being s. Stop defending them, stop making excuses for them, stop blaming other people for their behavior. Shame the pathetic incels and leave them nowhere to hide. If they try to hide behind anonymous online accounts then reveal their identities to the public, to their parents, and to their employers. The only thing silence does is let them believe that their behavior is ok and they can continue to get away with it.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Well it's the reason I've never gone to any of those countries without a high powered rifle.
I do it all the time. It's fine. And worthwhile.
For clarity, though, every time a foreigner is murdered your first response is 'Take the rough with the smooth'. When pressed, you'll agree that 'oF course, ISIS were in the wrong, but you know what you're setting yourself up for, right?
Every policeman that was murdered by the IRA? Every lone walker murdered at night?
The other person was at fault BUT...
If so, yeesh, but fair enough. If not, why not?
Don't misquote me dude.
I thought it an abundantly clear I'm asking whether you're consistent and not saying you've made thosestatements. If it wasn't clear: I'm asking whether your first reaction to a crime is always that the victims hold responsibility for crimes committed against them because of their chosen employment or places they put themselves.
Togusa wrote: The best way to fight it is to not be it and to raise the next generation to be better. "calling it out" isn't going to do a damn thing, and even then, multiple people, myself included have called it out in this thread.
Nonsense. Calling people out absolutely does something. It informs these people that what they are doing is completely unacceptable and they are not welcome in polite society until they stop being s. Stop defending them, stop making excuses for them, stop blaming other people for their behavior. Shame the pathetic incels and leave them nowhere to hide. If they try to hide behind anonymous online accounts then reveal their identities to the public, to their parents, and to their employers. The only thing silence does is let them believe that their behavior is ok and they can continue to get away with it.
Good luck with that. If that's what you want to pursue, go for it.
It absolutely is. You're passing negative judgement and condemn her actions. That's throwing stones.
What on earth do you define "throwing stones" as?
I don't believe her actions are those of a thoughtful and intelligent person. However, I can criticize her actions. And I am.
She does not deserve to be sexually degraded. End of. Do you think that a woman in a club dancing in a certain way, wearing skimpy clothing, is "cultivating behaviour"? Blame the "men who are desperate enough to give her money". If they "took responsibility", surely it's their fault for giving her money and enabling her streaming? After all, it's not like she's extorting the money from them.
You all really, really seem to be struggling with this. Not one of us has said she deserves anything that has happened to her. What I have been saying is that she should not be surprised that poking the dog leads to a bite.
Stop worrying about fault and feelings, and start thinking about action and responsibility!
"I'm going to avoid responsibility for my terrible opinions by blaming "buzzwords", because I'm know I'm in the wrong".
K.
No. She didn't create the environment, and she isn't handing herself monetary incentives to keep doing it. If you have a problem with her lifestyle, blame the people enabling it.
She didn't create the culture. She did stumble upon it and realize that if she played into she could make boatloads of money. She made her choices. I blame HER, IF she is upset with her own lifestyle. She CHOSE it. No one has a gun to her head.
I have no idea who they are, nor do I care. No twitch streamer deserves to be victim-blamed, or to be sexually degraded. Simple.
Which is why you are ignorant of the issue. You don't know the difference between a girl who is trying to run a business related to games, and two women who are using their looks and charisma to get money out of miserable witches on the internet by feeding their bad behaviors and treating it like its a joke.
But you're INCREDIBLY fixated on Delphine. Like, you created a topic about HER, not the people throwing money at her. The VAST majority of your posts on this topic (which you created) are focused on HER , not on the people who created the "toxic environment" that you're comparatively quiet about.
top·ic /ˈtäpik/ noun a matter dealt with in a text, discourse, or conversation; a subject.
Hmmm? Well to be fair I also mentioned the kids spitting in tea and licking ice cream in the title too...its just that everyone knows that is bad behavior and has no issue with it. It's okay, I knew that would be the case before posting!
So what, you're just going to accept it? What about racism in America? Homophobia in Russia? Xenophobia in England? You're just going to accept them too? Or are you going to take responsibility for the good of other people who are more vulnerable, and speak out against it?
I have my own issues in life to deal with. I make my decisions in life, I choose how I will treat people. If that's not good enough for you, tough.
Why not? Your comments have been painting a VERY worrying image of you, and you're hardly saying anything to make me think anything else of you
It is worrying that some of us still won't just blindly accept what the powers that be try to cram down our throats isn't it? It's important to get with the majority isn't it?
But! Fortunately I don't rightly care what you or anyone else thinks of me for that matter. If it makes you feel better, keep plugging away at your false concern.
Why are they only "playing" the victim, and not actually the victim? Sounds like you're just ignoring what happens to some people because their lifestyle is immoral according to you. It is not their fault if the environment they're in is rife with harassment. It is the fault of the people who cause the harassment in that environment.
Hmmm. This is a strange one, are you really trying to suggest that a person might not be fully versed in the risks of doing something and still go an do it anyway. Are we really then questioning why some people might think you reaped what you sewed by doing so? People who cause harassment are not good people, they're not doing good things, they're not behaving like adults and they certainly not acting with intelligence of compassion for their fellow man. People who go to these said people and play along to make money in vast amounts and then cry about the harassment they received come across as a little dishonest. If poking your eye with a needle hurts, and there is no reason for you to do it outside of the excuse that your friend gave you a 20$ for doing it, don't expect a lick of sympathy from me for the pain you now must endure because of your own actions.
They're exactly the same. Neither person deserves it.
Oooh! Look, you figured out that we agree on this point the whole time. Now will you stop trying to spin the alternative narrative? Me thinks not...
You're absolutely to blame for the propagation of them, if continue to focus more on blaming the people who "should have known better" by being in those environments, and not the people causing those environments to be toxic. Sorry, what happened to you accepting responsibility?
gak! Hang on, let me call Major Matembe and see if I can get him to stop training child soldiers in the DRC. I mean I have that power right?
You do realize that I've been holding BOTH sides accountable this entire time. I have said MULTIPLE times that the men in these communities are witches and should be treated as such. I figured it was implied that being a good person means being a good person and not telling witches that they're fine.
"Clearly"? According to your comments, you absolutely think that.
It sounds like you're the one interpreting incorrectly. Have I become a victim?
Sorry, what? You think that people should just accept abuse and crime and harassment against them, because "that's just how life works"? Christ.
No. I think people should accept that these things exist, and there is a chance they can happen to you.
Yes, it was. No-one's saying it wasn't, but this is different from the other examples given, because there was no offender and no victim.
Hmm, is not the offender the bad decision to not use protection, and the victims the man, the woman and the fetus? Seems pretty easy to define to me.
Yeah, your personal responsibility for not calling out harassers, abusers, and toxic people, and instead blaming the victims of those said incidents.
I'm still gonna pass on that kool-aid. But, hey, if you all want to try it out, let me know how it goes. I'd be happy to live in a world with no war, poverty or racism. Best of luck! As for me, I'm just gonna stay over here and be a good person to my friends, neighbors and family and take care of myself.
That's good. But you're also victim blaming and slut shaming. I'm just doing my part by calling that out, so you can recognise that behaviour. If that's too much for you, too bad.
Hmm. How's that working out for ya?
No, I can't. But I should take responsibility and do EVERYTHING I can. Not just cop out of it, avoid responsibility, and say "well, it's just human nature, you've just got to get over it" when people are being harassed, abused, and degraded. If you're one of those people who DOES dismiss it by saying "well, what can *I* do about it", you're part of the problem.
Or, I could be in the understanding that arguing those those people online is fruitless because it is a very different world. But, I guess if I did that I wouldn't be here arguing the point. Quite a sticky wicket!
Really? You seem more than happy to act as some moral arbiter on Delphine. You created a thread to "discuss" (read - complain about) her. The vast majority of your posts in this thread are calling her actions immoral, and saying she (and "young people") should take responsibility. But sure, that's not policing, is it?
Discussing a thing and sharing an opinion is not "policing." It's just called sharing an opinion. Take it or leave it?
For what it's worth, if you see someone harassing someone else because of their gender, their race, or for whatever reason, then it IS your responsibility to police them.
If I see it in real life, outside of the internet, I would call for help from the police.
If you let them go, and don't report it, call it out, or stand up against it, you are neglecting your responsibilities.
Agree to disagree?
And what makes you so sure it can't be changed? People said that about slavery. People said it about LGBT rights. If you lack the ambition to want to help others, that's on you.
A life time of experience? You will never put an end to these behaviors 100%. I wish you well, but it ain't gonna happen. You may quarantine them someday away where they can't hurt anyone. But you'll never remove these aspects of conciseness from humanity without resorting to truly hainous acts of barbarism, violence and oppression.
Anyone claiming that "there's nothing we can do about it" or "she should have known better" is defending it. To greater or lesser degrees, perhaps, but yes, they're defending it.
Again, I disagree. We can talk about it. These are valid topics, It is unfortunate that discussing them makes you so uncomfortable.
Nonsense.
Tell me exactly how to end it now. Oh, wait, you can't which is why you word dropped a meaningless word as a response to my statement. My friend, do yourself a favor and go study world history. It will help with a lot of these issues you're having.
Yes, they should be. If they're from a foreign country, it should be treated as the same, and in the same way as other crimes that are committed between two countries. Anonymous barely exists online - if you genuinely think that these harassers cannot be tracked down by justice enforcement agencies working with the platforms they're operating on, then I think you're overestimating their anonymity.
The police can't even finish all the cases they have in our own country. I read the other day that Texas has 9 years worth of rape kits that haven't even been examined by a lab tech yet. Due to the crackdowns on illegal immigration, Judges have over 900,000 cases that are still pending. Are you seriously advocating we waste already strained resources on some neckbeard sending a dick pick to a person online?
That's my solution. Treat it as a crime, and enforce it as such.
When you figure out the logistics of the manpower, the money and the resources needed, let me know. I always like a good read. And if you do manage to tackle that issue, I'd like to send you to NASA afterwords so that we can get on to Mars and start colonizing space.
No, but saying "she should have known better by being in this environment, the environment that we just accept because 'we can't do anything about it' and allow to prosper" IS saying she deserved it.
No. It isn't. It's say she put herself in a position that she had a choice to not be in. It's saying that she made this choice of her own accord and should not be surprised when gakky people, act gakky.
We've got quite a pile of alerts from folks on this thread, and from the looks of it we've left the OP pretty far behind (which was a bit questionable to start with!).
s. Stop defending them, stop making excuses for them, stop blaming other people for their behavior. Shame the pathetic incels and leave them nowhere to hide. If they try to hide behind anonymous online accounts then reveal their identities to the public, to their parents, and to their employers. The only thing silence does is let them believe that their behavior is ok and they can continue to get away with it.