Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mario wrote:

Togusa wrote:But this...this isn't sex work. It's the worst part of what I call "Thot Culture." Which in my opinion is just as sick and vial as the incels that spawned it in the first place.

It's sex work (it falls under that umbrella), it's another niche fetish. It's just that this is the first time this specific type of fetish got more mainstream-ish media attention. Somebody else has already mentioned used socks and underwear. My first instinct would be to wash dirty clothes so that's just not my thing but it seems to work for some people. I also don't understand furries but if makes them feel better and if they are having fun with it and causing no issues then where's the harm?

If her customers are willing to pay money for it then why not? For her it's healthier work than working in coal mines and probably even most regular service industry work (retail, waiting tables,…). As long as her customers get the advertised product everybody should be fine with that transaction. Let them do what they want as long as they are not harming anybody (else).

The only thing I would say is that its not actually work. Work implies productivity and output. This... this whatever this is is not that. It all seems like some sort of parasitic cultural virus type thing. Much like the outrage culture bug, modern western society seems to have caught.

We are spiraling into oblivion head first when this is considered 'work' and is elevated and accepted...

I am really behind the times with this sort of thing. I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are. They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.

Were getting into dangerous territory where people have to be protected from their own stupidity...

So this is essentially no longer a farce...




This kind of stuff (in the OP) is why I'm spending less time on the internet lately...and mainly stick to hobby forums, and documentaries when I can

 Togusa wrote:
But this...this isn't sex work. It's the worst part of what I call "Thot Culture." Which in my opinion is just as sick and vial as the incels that spawned it in the first place.

Incels: "women should be our lobotomized rape slaves, mass shooters are our heroes".

"Thot culture", whatever that is: *sells soft porn to willing buyers*

Yeah, these are definitely equal things...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
Work implies productivity and output. This... this whatever this is is not that.

How is it not productivity and output? She recognized a target market, developed a plan to exploit the opportunity, and turned it into a profitable business.

Not to mention the mass murders that appear wholly exclusive to one side of that scale.

 Argive wrote:
The only thing I would say is that its not actually work. Work implies productivity and output.

Work colloquially also implies doing a job. Sex work is an umbrella term for all kinds of occupations/work that's done in that niche where services or items related to sex are exchanged for money, favours, or things: Everything from prostitution, escorts, cam girls, to stuff like this. But yes, she's not actually building a house out of dildos or other "real work". Her clients find some value in that transaction so it fits that description. This is not specifically about work as a term in physics or thermodynamics but about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_worker

I agree it's not work(selling bathwater, pants, nail clippings or whatever other miscellaneous items to perverts) But fair play to them. If there are fools out there, then why not take their money? ... Thats just good business. If I could sell my used grots I definitely would.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mario wrote:

She's not actually building a house out of dildos

Now that would be impressive.

It might not be a 9-5 job, but fetish work is clearly work. You have to have marketing, production, packaging, and shipping. When I sell more than ten things on eBay, I start to lose my mind, I can't imagine the hassle of shipping dozens of jars.

With the bathwater thing, there are two threads here. One is it's a giant inside joke. She's a troll, most of the people buying it are trolls, it's just a fad. the other is, well, yeah, perverts. Big spenders.

 Argive wrote:
I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.

Sorry, but hard disagree.

I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.

They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.

That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.

Nope. It's immoral and has no value.

That one person said so.

This sort of thing has been going on forever, I don’t see the sudden fascination with it. The Catholic Church sold Christ’s finger bones for centuries.

As for contaminating goods, I’d be more worried about what the kids making your hamburgers at McDonald’s are doing, or not doing. Just reminds me of the kids that stuck chewing gum on seats and railings when I was a lad. Trolls gonna troll.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.

Sorry, but hard disagree.

I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.

They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.

That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.

Yeah but when doing sex work (and they are caming, so its sex work..) you will get weirdos and perverts messaging you.... In ideal utopia, yeah, we would not have have pervy weirdos but we do. Its just fact and reality.. the weirdos are not going anywhere.

People no longer need to take agency over their self-conduct or protect themselves and think about their actions. They are publicly doing cam shows and aiming to attract as much attention as possible to make money... So they will attract attention ALL OF THE ATTENTION. To complain about it like you didn't think it would happen is just idiotic.... Also if they are hurt by an online comment maybe internet is not the best place to practice your sex work business which allows for comments... Obviously my opinions.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.

Sorry, but hard disagree.

I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.

They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.

That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.

I mean, sure, to an extent. I hate to use this argument because it's so often used in bad faith, but at some point a line is crossed beyond which it's less sexual harassment and more just expressions of the exact thing they were trying to elicit.

If a woman is just out & about, at work or otherwise, she should be able to wear what she likes and expect to not have to deal with pervy comments and the like. However, if your entire professional persona is pushing all the way out to just this side of pornography to solicit cash from thirsty blokes, I don't know that you can really clutch your pearls all that hard when the accounts associated with that persona get some risque PMs.

In that kind of case, I'd say it becomes harassment depending on the content of the messages, depending on the reaction the messager has to being ignored or told to bog off, or in any case where messages are intruding on the actual real person behind the persona's life.

To draw a parallel; everyone should be able to share their reasonable thoughts and views on social media without being abused and dogpiled, but if you behave like an intentionally provocative troll or insist on continually expressing genuinely repugnant views for the sake of clicks, well, part of the responsibility for what happens after that - up to a point - is yours. You can still justifiably be upset over serious death-threats, or doxxing, things of that nature, but if you start getting PMs with extensive collections of expletives that's just an expression of exactly what you wanted in the first place - to make people angry.

 Argive wrote:
Yeah but when doing sex work (and they are caming, so its sex work..) you will get weirdos and perverts messaging you.... In ideal utopia, yeah, we would not have have pervy weirdos but we do. Its just fact and reality.. the weirdos are not going anywhere.

People no longer need to take agency over their self-conduct or protect themselves and think about their actions. They are publicly doing cam shows and aiming to attract as much attention as possible to make money... So they will attract attention ALL OF THE ATTENTION. To complain about it like you didn't think it would happen is just idiotic.... Also if they are hurt by an online comment maybe internet is not the best place to practice your sex work business which allows for comments... Obviously my opinions.

Alternatively we could not engage in victim blaming and apologism for bad behavior.

I think some people just don't want to hear it. How dare you suggest people are responsible for their own life and actions or every action has a reaction. Or that reality is a lot different to what outrage culture portrays... Shame on you.

Someone will probably say you are victim blaming or something no matter how much logic you try to put into your thinking.

To nip in in the bud its not okay to harass anyone, it isn't. Nobody is saying that, but at the same time you will be harassed if you put yourself in certain situations because that's life and horrible people exist. its reality and a fact. So if you go out of your way to put yourself in a situation so you can leech off certain people and then complain those people harass you, you are stupid. And I don't have time to feel sorry for stupid people where there are people genuinely getting harassed and actual real world problems and issues.

"I'm not victim blaming, but here's a bunch of me blaming the victims".

Gotta take the rough with the smooth. You're priviledged enough to be able to make a pretty decent living by doing basically nothing.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Gotta take the rough with the smooth.

Why?

Because that's life. I think if you create a world where sex is so open and Liberal as it is now, you need to expect that certain people will take that as a cue to do inappropriate things, usually through not being taught any better. Now I don't agree with that, and I don't condone it, it's pretty pathetic, but in my opinion its a by product of what happens if you liberalise sex.

 Peregrine wrote:
"I'm not victim blaming, but here's a bunch of me blaming the victims".

"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitt...OMG YOU HIT MEEEEE!!!!"

And don't pretend you're not capable of grasping the concept that a person can bear some responsibility for a thing happening to them, and should expect it to be happening based on their actions, even if that thing is bad in general and in an ideal world shouldn't be happening.

Most of us probably work a job, right? And with that job comes some stuff we dislike and wish would go away. I am a teacher, I complain about my marking, or about kids being snotty, or whatever. But ultimately, that is how I make my living.

People really rarely tell me to stop whinging about it and accept personal responsibility for my career choice, but WEIRDLY, when it is some young women making their living by having this persona on Twitch or whatever, suddenly it is not valid for them to complain because it all comes with the territory.

So I just detect a bit of a double standard when it comes to this sort of topic.

It is a bit like how "Ethics in Games Journalism" was never a really big deal until a woman might have been having sex with someone.

Sometimes self awareness is a good thing.

As to selling bathwater and so on, it is a transaction and both sides understand what they are getting, so whatever. I would be amazed if anyone bought that stuff, and I think it is really weird, but whatever. People have been selling weird stuff forever, I don't think it is a new phenomenon.

Argive wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I watched a youtube thing where these twicth girls were saying they want respect etc because they aren't like cam girls and shouldn't be sent gross sex messages etc... Well they are.

Sorry, but hard disagree.

I don't care what someone does for a living, if they ask not to be sent degrading messages, they have every right to ask that. If a person thinks that someone's profession is justification for them to sexually harass them, then it's the fault of them, not on the girls, and frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves.

They are sitting in their underwar (or not) not having a clue about games... So yeah they are exactly like cam girls.

That doesn't justify people sending them degrading messages. They're people, not pieces of meat. You can call what they do immoral, but that's your opinion.

Yeah but when doing sex work (and they are caming, so its sex work..)

No, it's not. I don't know what particular streamers you're on about, but video games require no qualifications or baseline of skill. They're just filming themselves playing a game on camera and talking to eachother (which is probably the main source of interest) - which is pretty much EVERY group twitch stream ever. However, you think that because of what they choose to wear, and that they're apparently attractive, you think people have the right to send them degrading messages despite them asking not to?

That's not their fault. That's yours.

you will get weirdos and perverts messaging you.... In ideal utopia, yeah, we would not have have pervy weirdos but we do. Its just fact and reality.. the weirdos are not going anywhere.

That's not good enough. If you genuinely believe that pervy weirdos shouldn't exist, you'd actually oppose them instead of saying "well, that's just how it is". Instead of blaming those weirdos, you're blaming these streamers for the perversions of others.

People no longer need to take agency over their self-conduct or protect themselves and think about their actions.

Like those perverts leaving the comments, right? What consequences will they receive for their actions and self-conduct?

They are publicly doing cam shows and aiming to attract as much attention as possible to make money... So they will attract attention ALL OF THE ATTENTION. To complain about it like you didn't think it would happen is just idiotic....

It's not about if it would happen, it's about if it "should" happen. Those women should not be subjected to that, and all you're doing is saying how actually, they deserved it all along. No-one, absolutely NO-ONE should have to expect to receive sexual messages and abuse, especially if they explicitly ask for people NOT to do that.

If you still go ahead and leave degrading comments on someone's video even after they ask for you not to do so, you're completely in the wrong. That is below human decency.

Also if they are hurt by an online comment maybe internet is not the best place to practice your sex work business which allows for comments...

"If you can't handle people abusing you online because they're perverts, you're clearly the one who should leave the platform, and not them." That's absolutely ridiculous. Do you think women who get catcalled in the streets shouldn't be walking on those streets?

Yodhrin wrote:I mean, sure, to an extent. I hate to use this argument because it's so often used in bad faith, but at some point a line is crossed beyond which it's less sexual harassment and more just expressions of the exact thing they were trying to elicit.

If someone's asked you not to make any kind of comments in that nature, you should know better than to continue making them.

If you're still making those comments despite the person literally asking you not to, that IS harassment. When the comments are sexual in nature, it's sexual harassment. Simple.

If a woman is just out & about, at work or otherwise, she should be able to wear what she likes and expect to not have to deal with pervy comments and the like. However, if your entire professional persona is pushing all the way out to just this side of pornography to solicit cash from thirsty blokes,

Why not? She's still a woman, doing her work. It's not pornography, any more so than an attractive person doing something is pornography. Is an attractive lifeguard considered "pornography" now, because they're wearing little? Is a model considered to be doing "pornography" because they might be wearing lingerie or underwear?

Just because of what they're wearing does NOT make it pornography.

You also touch on the real problem of the issue here. It's not the fault of the people who are turning to these jobs for money. It's the fault of the "thirsty blokes" who are throwing the money at them. Blame them for encouraging these ladies to earn money in this way, if you think what they do is immoral.

I don't know that you can really clutch your pearls all that hard when the accounts associated with that persona get some risque PMs.

No, I absolutely can. If they've asked for people not to do that, and people continue to, that's not their fault, and they absolutely shouldn't expect to have to put up with other people's lack of respect.

In that kind of case, I'd say it becomes harassment depending on the content of the messages, depending on the reaction the messager has to being ignored or told to bog off, or in any case where messages are intruding on the actual real person behind the persona's life.

Disagree. It should NEVER be assumed that you have a right to send sexually suggestive messages to a content creator, and especially not if they've explicitly asked for people not to do that. If you breach that, you're the one at fault.

To draw a parallel; everyone should be able to share their reasonable thoughts and views on social media without being abused and dogpiled, but if you behave like an intentionally provocative troll or insist on continually expressing genuinely repugnant views for the sake of clicks, well, part of the responsibility for what happens after that - up to a point - is yours. You can still justifiably be upset over serious death-threats, or doxxing, things of that nature, but if you start getting PMs with extensive collections of expletives that's just an expression of exactly what you wanted in the first place - to make people angry.

Wait, so you're saying "because they're wearing XYZ and are behaving in this way, they DESERVE to be sent sexually degrading messages, even if they've asked for people not to"?

Jesus Christ.You wouldn't also be one of these people who claim that "it's okay to catcall because they were wearing a low cut top" or "it's okay to touch them because they were wearing provocative clothing", or "it's not fault, her underwear was clearly inviting me to do that", would you?

Yodhrin wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
"I'm not victim blaming, but here's a bunch of me blaming the victims".

"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitt...OMG YOU HIT MEEEEE!!!!"

And don't pretend you're not capable of grasping the concept that a person can bear some responsibility for a thing happening to them, and should expect it to be happening based on their actions, even if that thing is bad in general and in an ideal world shouldn't be happening.

If you want that ideal world to happen, maybe you should stop victim-blaming, stop allowing people to get away with making those kind of degrading comments, and actually stand up and oppose them.

Unless, of course, you think it's absolutely okay for women to be abused because some "thirsty blokes" can't control their urges, and blame it all on the women, and not the actual abusers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
As to selling bathwater and so on, it is a transaction and both sides understand what they are getting, so whatever. I would be amazed if anyone bought that stuff, and I think it is really weird, but whatever. People have been selling weird stuff forever, I don't think it is a new phenomenon.

This is a good point. Both parties are aware of what it is they're doing. The seller isn't forcing the buyer into it. If you've got a problem with the transaction, blame the person who's willing to buy bathwater.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
"I'm not victim blaming, but here's a bunch of me blaming the victims".

"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitt...OMG YOU HIT MEEEEE!!!!"

And don't pretend you're not capable of grasping the concept that a person can bear some responsibility for a thing happening to them, and should expect it to be happening based on their actions, even if that thing is bad in general and in an ideal world shouldn't be happening.

When a person leaves a high value item in plain view, and it's stolen, we all kind of understand that the person could be more careful, but we also clearly and unambiguously acknowledge that it should not happen, and people that do so are criminals.

harassment of women online, however, seems to be treated as "just one of those things," even though harassment is still objective improper. And it's not like she can just be more careful, to avoid harassment she would not to basically stop posting the material that makes money. That doesn't seem fair.

Yup.

The harassment is not because the women are wearing revealing clothes. If they were wearing a burqa they'd still receive harassment, possibly even worse than before.

The problem is the people sending the messages. End of.

Yup.

Consider your profession or vocation.

I'm considering mine. When I'm on the clock, I do my job. When I'm off the clock? I very much reserve the right to tell people seeking my assistance to Go Away.

My career is not in fact my life. My knowledge and role do not define me, or mean I'm open all hours. My commitment and competence within my career do not mean I have to deal with all related queries and questions, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Why should it be any different here?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Same for Adult Entertainers, and Persons of Negotiable Affections.

Do you have an agreement/contract with them, where they've agreed a price and the services to be rendered? No? Then they don't owe you a thing.

I don't think anyone thinks they deserve to be sent in appropriate photos or messages, or blaming them for it..

What I'm saying is that if you have a culture that facilitates people making money doing that sort of thing, then its also going to facilitate (in some) a mentality that it's OK to do that,(send inappropriate messages)and (in their heads) that the receiver will appreciate such messages. The bar lowers for everyone, not just those who it benefits.

So do I deserve the odd abusive email from a customer when I'm only doing my job?

Is that in anyway justified? And I'm pretty sure the mentality behind it faaaaaaar predates the industry itself.

"It's inappropriate to do this, but here's a bunch of excuses and piss-poor mitigation for same, designed to dress up my dreadful personal opinion as sociological fact."

Aaaaand maybe everyone dial it back a wee bit? Getting a bit personal.

but do you have an actual counterpoint to mine? or are you just going to keep beating the ad hominem drum? what about my opinion makes it dreadful? your opinion? ergo, attempting to silence someone from a high ground you just placed yourself upon is not really a valid form of debate.

The mistake is believing that I'm attempting to debate you. That your opinions require a rebuttal, that they aren't obviously self-refuting and utterly naked.

Your opinion, dear Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells, is dreadful because it is naught but misogynistic victim-blaming; a rally-cry for the status quo.

A position of entrenched privilege.