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Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 17:16:09


Post by: Reemule


Tiggy is good, Gives the +1 at the start of the battle round, lasts the complete battle round.

New Psychic power.

Confirmed 16 Ultra only Stratagems.

Gman in the Supplemental.

Scions of Gman.. Move and bolter drill all the days.



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 17:33:00


Post by: Daedalus81


I'm trying to noodle through all this. Tactical makes Bolt Rifle Intercessors into what Rubric Marines should have been with bolters. They'll be an incredible unit envied by everyone. What is going to keep them off the table?

Can people give me lists they think will be absolutely ridiculous?



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 17:36:40


Post by: Tibs Ironblood


Aggressors with the move and shoot as if they didn't move is going to be really solid. They will be the #1 threat on the field that needs to die I think. By themselves with minor support they are putting out gross amounts of firepower that's -1 ap. They're brutally efficient. Intercessors also seem really solid with this. Moving and always getting their two shots at ap-2 is really strong.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 17:44:09


Post by: Ishagu


My flamer Aggressors will now disembark from a transport and hit a unit with 100 Ap-1 auto hits.

Intercessors are running around, always rapid firing with ap-2 bolters.

Tiggy is Eldrad. Re rolls to cast AND +1 to cast and deny. Fantabulous.

Cherry on top is that it applies to vehicles, so heavy weapons on Redemptors now have no penalty to hit, as an example.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 17:44:56


Post by: Reemule


I think one of the bigger deals is the confimration of 16 unique stratagems for Ultras.

You can surmise that would remain constant for the other supplementals. So good news for Scars, Iron Hands such.

I think the blurb about all the rerolls might be them fixing the reroll business. That is good. its a game play flaw.

I think the new Psychic is blah. Its not wonderful. Its not bad. Corner case. Have to wait and see. But I think the good news is it shows the Psycic powers are getting reworked. That is needed.

Further confirmations of New Warlord Traits, New Relics is nice.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:10:58


Post by: Sentineil


I think the psychic power has pretty decent capability. With a good roll it can obliterate a squad of guardsmen.

Add in a few leadership modifiers and it's an awful lot more threatening than smite.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:17:22


Post by: Tibs Ironblood


 Sentineil wrote:
I think the psychic power has pretty decent capability. With a good roll it can obliterate a squad of guardsmen.

Add in a few leadership modifiers and it's an awful lot more threatening than smite.


Yeah I 100% agree. It's on average not going to do much, but with a re-roll the threat value is very high. It could blow up a character or do very reliable wounds to a 8-9 leadership squad. Or you could roll average an do like 1 wound if you are lucky. Either way I think it's a solid power.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:18:08


Post by: Ishagu


I've just realised that Ultramarine Executioners will shoot twice even if they move because it counts as staying still. That's a nice little boost.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:19:11


Post by: Tibs Ironblood


 Ishagu wrote:
I've just realised that Ultramarine Executioners will shoot twice even if they move because it counts as staying still. That's a nice little boost.


Depending on the rules white scars get it is funny to think that ultramarines might very well be the most mobile marine army.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:21:45


Post by: Daedalus81


Tigurius' ability is start of the battle round now, too. feth me.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:23:30


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Tigurius' ability is start of the battle round now, too. feth me.

That part is tecnicalloy a nerf. It used to be at the start of the shooting phase so you got more information before you made your decision. It now effects CC attacks though ...Fair trade....


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:25:11


Post by: fraser1191


I think they messed up the stratagem they show cased. It's until the next battle round, so if you go first it's still on during your opponents turn. Then if you go second it's gone at the end of your turn.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:39:26


Post by: The Newman


 Ishagu wrote:
My flamer Aggressors will now disembark from a transport and hit a unit with 100 Ap-1 auto hits.


Only 70 on average out of a Repulsor. 42 out of an Impulsor or Executioner. Boltstorm dudes with a reroll average 85 and 51 hits respectively. Taking Overwatch from Flamestorm Aggressors that didn't move though...


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 18:59:53


Post by: Reemule


Aggressors, Redemptors both really seem to benefit from this rule. I'd say chances are the Impulsor and Invictus dreadknight suit might as well.

I keep coming back to Tiggy with an asterius, in the Devastator Doctorine that is a lot of -3 and -4 AP. Those Heavy Stubbers at -2 AP start to look good. Add in some Lasfusil and Suppressors... Thats a lot of armor penetrations.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:03:40


Post by: Gitdakka


Wait, i dont get this concept. So lets say you play an ultramarines list using the new codex. Then you buy the supplement and put it in your game bag. Does the same list you usually play now get the new better ultramarine tactical doctrine (shoting as if standing still) without changing anything? Just owning the book makes your ultramarines better for free? You can say pregame its in your library at home and you get free better rules?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:07:01


Post by: Thadin


What article are you all reading where Tiggy is giving +1 to hit? Cause the one I'm reading right now, his Master of Prescience gives an Ultramarines unit within 6" a -1 to hit debuff against enemies shooting at them.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:07:58


Post by: Tibs Ironblood


Gitdakka wrote:
Wait, i dont get this concept. So lets say you play an ultramarines list using the new codex. Then you buy the supplement and put it in your game bag. Does the same list you usually play now get the new better ultramarine tactical doctrine (shoting as if standing still) without changing anything? Just owning the book makes your ultramarines better for free? You can say pregame its in your library at home and you get free better rules?


I mean personally I'd think everyone would agree ultramarines would have this regardless of if the player has the book or not. I think it would be very "off" to say no you don't get this free rule because you didn't buy the book or have it on hand especially when these rules are very easy to prove as being a thing through a variety of sources.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:07:58


Post by: Ice_can


Gitdakka wrote:
Wait, i dont get this concept. So lets say you play an ultramarines list using the new codex. Then you buy the supplement and put it in your game bag. Does the same list you usually play now get the new better ultramarine tactical doctrine (shoting as if standing still) without changing anything? Just owning the book makes your ultramarines better for free? You can say pregame its in your library at home and you get free better rules?

Well it sounds like the named charictors and special units are in the supplement.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:12:21


Post by: Xenomancers


The Newman wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
My flamer Aggressors will now disembark from a transport and hit a unit with 100 Ap-1 auto hits.


Only 70 on average out of a Repulsor. 42 out of an Impulsor or Executioner. Boltstorm dudes with a reroll average 85 and 51 hits respectively. Taking Overwatch from Flamestorm Aggressors that didn't move though...

Yeah the boltstorms are just better overall.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:14:10


Post by: Vankraken


 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Gitdakka wrote:
Wait, i dont get this concept. So lets say you play an ultramarines list using the new codex. Then you buy the supplement and put it in your game bag. Does the same list you usually play now get the new better ultramarine tactical doctrine (shoting as if standing still) without changing anything? Just owning the book makes your ultramarines better for free? You can say pregame its in your library at home and you get free better rules?


I mean personally I'd think everyone would agree ultramarines would have this regardless of if the player has the book or not. I think it would be very "off" to say no you don't get this free rule because you didn't buy the book or have it on hand especially when these rules are very easy to prove as being a thing through a variety of sources.


Some people would fully endorse pay to win if that is what GW is selling. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if people demanded you buy the book in order to use the power cre.. i mean new rules.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:17:07


Post by: Ice_can


Assuming that dreadnaughts get to benifit from Scions of Guilliman.
(Which also means the exsisting marine strategums are now dead.)

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:20:13


Post by: Reemule


The way I read it is:

Space Marine Dex has all the stuff. All the data sheets for all the units in common for all Chapter Codex organizations. it also have the Chapter Tactics. And warlord Traits and relics. Presumably generic Librarian power list also. Oh and all the in common space marine stratagems.

Ultramarine supplemental adds Ultra special characters (calgar, Tiggy, Gman), Ultramarine specific units (Nid War Vets) Ultra specific Stratagems, Relics, and Traits, and it appear a Ultra Specific Psychic Power list. Ohh and the Army Wide ultra if your in Tac doctorine move and shoot, but don't count as moving. (whatever that is called)


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:20:28


Post by: Sterling191


Ice_can wrote:

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?


It means you're on the bounce Marine.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:30:17


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Did you see the entry for the Special Equipment? I'm kinda confused how that interacts with the regular relics but I don't have time to digest the article.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:31:34


Post by: Xenomancers


Ice_can wrote:
Assuming that dreadnaughts get to benifit from Scions of Guilliman.
(Which also means the exsisting marine strategums are now dead.)

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?
You mean conversion beamers? It's a heavy weapon so it will get +1 AP on devastator doctrine and if you are ultramarines you will ignore penalties for moving and shooting if the tactical docterine is up.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:38:05


Post by: Ice_can


 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Assuming that dreadnaughts get to benifit from Scions of Guilliman.
(Which also means the exsisting marine strategums are now dead.)

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?
You mean conversion beamers? It's a heavy weapon so it will get +1 AP on devastator doctrine and if you are ultramarines you will ignore penalties for moving and shooting if the tactical docterine is up.

Well it carries the"may not be fired on any turn in which the model carrying it has moved."

"Can make attacks with ranged weapons in the following shooting phase as if their unit had remained stationary"


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:39:37


Post by: Sterling191


Ice_can wrote:

Well it carries the"may not be fired on any turn in which the model carrying it has moved."

"Can make attacks with ranged weapons in the following shooting phase as if their unit had remained stationary"


Therefore so far as the weapon is concerned you havent moved, and can fire.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:42:03


Post by: Ice_can


Sterling191 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Well it carries the"may not be fired on any turn in which the model carrying it has moved."

"Can make attacks with ranged weapons in the following shooting phase as if their unit had remained stationary"


Therefore so far as the weapon is concerned you havent moved, and can fire.

That's what I thought but time to get those C-beams ordered as I expect GW will nerf this asap.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 19:43:18


Post by: BrainFireBob


Gitdakka wrote:
Wait, i dont get this concept. So lets say you play an ultramarines list using the new codex. Then you buy the supplement and put it in your game bag. Does the same list you usually play now get the new better ultramarine tactical doctrine (shoting as if standing still) without changing anything? Just owning the book makes your ultramarines better for free? You can say pregame its in your library at home and you get free better rules?


Main book will probably be "Codex: Successor/DIY Chapter."

So sort of yes? Might be tradeoffs in the DIY traits, though


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 20:13:10


Post by: Pandabeer


 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Aggressors with the move and shoot as if they didn't move is going to be really solid. They will be the #1 threat on the field that needs to die I think. By themselves with minor support they are putting out gross amounts of firepower that's -1 ap. They're brutally efficient. Intercessors also seem really solid with this. Moving and always getting their two shots at ap-2 is really strong.


OUCH. Yeah, that's true. Didn't realize that yet, that will make a group of 3 Aggressors in an Impulsor riding them to their destinatio REALLY dangerous. Insulated from shooting thanks to the 4++ Impulsor 1st turn, then come second turn they can make a 3 + 5" disembark move to get into optimal firing position and then unleash 36+ 6d6 S4 AP-1 shots. My Reaper Chaincannon CSM are gonna be so jealous...

Really interesting one for me will be White Scars tomorrow though as maybe I want to run my Space Wolves with their rules... I love SW but ever since 8th I've been struggling with them because SWs own rules just feel so... out of character for them. At least for me personally. Been looking for a different ruleset to run them with that better fits my vision of SW ever since.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 20:41:45


Post by: BrianDavion


Ice_can wrote:
Assuming that dreadnaughts get to benifit from Scions of Guilliman.
(Which also means the exsisting marine strategums are now dead.)

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?


I'm assuming the space marine strats are dead for awhile myself.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 20:55:54


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Sterling191 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?


It means you're on the bounce Marine.




Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 20:58:28


Post by: Xenomancers


Pandabeer wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Aggressors with the move and shoot as if they didn't move is going to be really solid. They will be the #1 threat on the field that needs to die I think. By themselves with minor support they are putting out gross amounts of firepower that's -1 ap. They're brutally efficient. Intercessors also seem really solid with this. Moving and always getting their two shots at ap-2 is really strong.


OUCH. Yeah, that's true. Didn't realize that yet, that will make a group of 3 Aggressors in an Impulsor riding them to their destinatio REALLY dangerous. Insulated from shooting thanks to the 4++ Impulsor 1st turn, then come second turn they can make a 3 + 5" disembark move to get into optimal firing position and then unleash 36+ 6d6 S4 AP-1 shots. My Reaper Chaincannon CSM are gonna be so jealous...

Really interesting one for me will be White Scars tomorrow though as maybe I want to run my Space Wolves with their rules... I love SW but ever since 8th I've been struggling with them because SWs own rules just feel so... out of character for them. At least for me personally. Been looking for a different ruleset to run them with that better fits my vision of SW ever since.

It's even better than that. The Impulsor can move 10" then you can move 8" + the thickness of an aggressor base minus a micro messurment then shoot 18 and double tap. It is going to be totally amazing. This will be a turn 2 move though (cause you cant call tactical doctrine turn 1) if marines get a deep strike stratagem that will work EVEN BETTER. If there is a strat to change doctrines Imupulsor will be totally amazing. There is also some talk about Gman possibly having the doctrine manipulation built in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it is interesting though. Stalker bolt rifles are pretty sweet in an ultra build. Turn 1 they are AP -3 and turn 2 they can move and shoot without penalty. So this is a very big improvement from the intercessor spam list I used to run with gman.


Typically I was taking 40 bolt rfiles. Now I can take 30 bolt rifle and 10 stalkers for on demand 10 sniper guns that deal mortals as well with AP-3 turn 1. All my intercessors are getting an additional +1 attack on the first round of combat and they can all move turn 2 and still get double shots at AP-2. Rapid fire is going to obliterate everything with gman aura and I can do it on the move now. VERY VERY good. The 2 CP strat that gives you ap-1 on a 6 is kinda weak...I'm pretty sure that is tiggies warlord trait in a 6" bubble. I'd just make him my warlord if I ever planned on using that strat because it would be on all the time.

There are 15 more strats in that book though. If at least 5 of them are good. I think I can take my old army that was kinda okay and really make opponents rethink their strategy. Nullzone (if it still exist) is going to be the death of armies with all this free AP running around.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 21:50:34


Post by: fraser1191


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you see the entry for the Special Equipment? I'm kinda confused how that interacts with the regular relics but I don't have time to digest the article.


I think what they meant was here's a relic that's available to Ultramarines as well as Ultramarine successor chapters only


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Aggressors with the move and shoot as if they didn't move is going to be really solid. They will be the #1 threat on the field that needs to die I think. By themselves with minor support they are putting out gross amounts of firepower that's -1 ap. They're brutally efficient. Intercessors also seem really solid with this. Moving and always getting their two shots at ap-2 is really strong.


OUCH. Yeah, that's true. Didn't realize that yet, that will make a group of 3 Aggressors in an Impulsor riding them to their destinatio REALLY dangerous. Insulated from shooting thanks to the 4++ Impulsor 1st turn, then come second turn they can make a 3 + 5" disembark move to get into optimal firing position and then unleash 36+ 6d6 S4 AP-1 shots. My Reaper Chaincannon CSM are gonna be so jealous...

Really interesting one for me will be White Scars tomorrow though as maybe I want to run my Space Wolves with their rules... I love SW but ever since 8th I've been struggling with them because SWs own rules just feel so... out of character for them. At least for me personally. Been looking for a different ruleset to run them with that better fits my vision of SW ever since.

It's even better than that. The Impulsor can move 10" then you can move 8" + the thickness of an aggressor base minus a micro messurment then shoot 18 and double tap. It is going to be totally amazing. This will be a turn 2 move though (cause you cant call tactical doctrine turn 1) if marines get a deep strike stratagem that will work EVEN BETTER. If there is a strat to change doctrines Imupulsor will be totally amazing. There is also some talk about Gman possibly having the doctrine manipulation built in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it is interesting though. Stalker bolt rifles are pretty sweet in an ultra build. Turn 1 they are AP -3 and turn 2 they can move and shoot without penalty. So this is a very big improvement from the intercessor spam list I used to run with gman.


Typically I was taking 40 bolt rfiles. Now I can take 30 bolt rifle and 10 stalkers for on demand 10 sniper guns that deal mortals as well with AP-3 turn 1. All my intercessors are getting an additional +1 attack on the first round of combat and they can all move turn 2 and still get double shots at AP-2. Rapid fire is going to obliterate everything with gman aura and I can do it on the move now. VERY VERY good. The 2 CP strat that gives you ap-1 on a 6 is kinda weak...I'm pretty sure that is tiggies warlord trait in a 6" bubble. I'd just make him my warlord if I ever planned on using that strat because it would be on all the time.

There are 15 more strats in that book though. If at least 5 of them are good. I think I can take my old army that was kinda okay and really make opponents rethink their strategy. Nullzone (if it still exist) is going to be the death of armies with all this free AP running around.


Oh I was thinking of this on the way home today, like I think I have to make a 10 man vet squad. Turn 2 30" bolter discipline on the move with rapid fire 2 bolt rifles?! I absolutely demolished my friend on the weekend(granted he took a wraith knight so....) but with these buffs I don't think it would have been fair


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:09:57


Post by: Crimson


You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:17:50


Post by: fraser1191


 Crimson wrote:
You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.


A little bit. I think once it's out we'll see what it actually does but right now everything is in a bit of a vacuum. Intercessors are still 17ppm, and I normally say they're too much. But now I don't know.

They die exactly the same as before this codex so I'm not sure what to think


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:24:01


Post by: Banville


 fraser1191 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.


A little bit. I think once it's out we'll see what it actually does but right now everything is in a bit of a vacuum. Intercessors are still 17ppm, and I normally say they're too much. But now I don't know.

They die exactly the same as before this codex so I'm not sure what to think


Dying wasn't the issue, though. The fact Marines died without actually doing anything was. It was either up their damage output, drop their points or up their resilience. Dropping points meant turning them into a horde. Upping resilience meant them sitting their forever whilst not actually damaging anything. The killier option was really the only one that might offer a fix.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:25:45


Post by: Xenomancers


 fraser1191 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.


A little bit. I think once it's out we'll see what it actually does but right now everything is in a bit of a vacuum. Intercessors are still 17ppm, and I normally say they're too much. But now I don't know.

They die exactly the same as before this codex so I'm not sure what to think

Right now at 17 they are too much. They play more like a 15 point model. Now with bonus attacks in CC and AP 2 bolters on turn 2. They are easily worth 17 not just for Ultramarines ether. As Imperial fist they are amazing Offensively. As Ironhands they are practically immune to assault from anything but a heavy unit and get bonus toughness. Rerolling all wounds though with ap-2 as ultras and can with 36" threat range - nothing that isn't t8 is safe from the onslaut. Even in CC later in the game with ap -1. Looking like an alstar unit.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:33:07


Post by: Ishagu


3 man Aggressor Squads in Impulsors might be a great way to play them.

But hey, Hellblasters work too!


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:36:13


Post by: Crimson


Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:37:40


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.


yeah the extra rule seems odd. I don't mind additional options but just a "ohh yeah here's a completely free bonus rule" seems a bit odd. on the other hand this might explain why Ultramarines didn't see a buff to their chapter tactic.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:52:43


Post by: Xenomancers


 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.
Personally I would have preferred they change the Ultras tactic to +1 Leadership and can chose their doctrine for every unit every turn. So basically their tactic would be ap-1 +1 LD. It would have been on the same power level as the other tactics then and they wouldn't need this special rule. The special rule is actually better as you will just build your army around a single discipline and stay on whats best for them and it wouldn't have created the I get to move and act as stationary shenanigans. I still think other chapters have a lot to offer though. Ultras will be the better infantry spam army. Imperial fists and ironhands will be the best gunlines.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:54:29


Post by: BrianDavion


I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 22:55:52


Post by: Ishagu


BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor


This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:00:34


Post by: BrianDavion


 Ishagu wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor


This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.

\
I am however a touch saddened that this means the create a chapter won't be as good. 1 step forward 2 back


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:03:21


Post by: Ishagu


Well, we really don't know that yet.

There might be a table to pick from a set of Doctrine based abilities.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:03:33


Post by: Crimson


 Ishagu wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor

This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.

Which pretty much ruins any interesting choices the doctrine system might otherwise offer. Bad idea.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:12:18


Post by: Xenomancers


 Ishagu wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor


This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.

Okay so...there is likely something even stronger than ultramarines coming. Cause ultrasmarines chapter tactic blows. If Ironhands get the same rule for devestator that ultras got for tactical - that will be even better.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:16:15


Post by: Ishagu


Well, word on the street is that Imperial Fists and Iron Hands is what most people will gravitate towards once everything is out.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:20:29


Post by: Daedalus81


 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.


The more I ponder the more I feel like we should treat this just like Deathwatch.

Deathwatch always has some special ammo active. The SM ammo is more broadly used, but is certainly less versatile.

An DW Intercessor w/ Kraken Bolts is 36", S4 AP2 -- rapid firing at 18"/36" stationary.
An UM Intercessor w/ Tactical is 30" S4 AP2 -- rapid firing at 30" by turn 2 for all aspects.

On turn 1 this makes the UM Intercessor strictly inferior and then moderately better / more flexible by turn 2.

Now when considering tactics UM provide nothing spectacular while DW get reroll 1s to wound.

Are DW Intercessors breaking the game? It certainly seems to not be the case.

The confounding pieces are 1) do Forgeworld units benefit, 2) how easy will Aggressors rustle our jimmies, and 3) what other units might benefit greatly.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:33:41


Post by: Xenomancers


 Ishagu wrote:
Well, word on the street is that Imperial Fists and Iron Hands is what most people will gravitate towards once everything is out.
I bet you those are the last 2 codex that get released too.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:36:08


Post by: Ishagu


I think Iron Hands will be the third book, and Fists will be dead last.

The Fists book will probably include BT and CF as well, making it the biggest potentially.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:48:04


Post by: BrianDavion


am a little elery of IFs being the best as I'm leaning towards making my custom chapter a IF sucessor :(


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:53:53


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


BrianDavion wrote:
am a little elery of IFs being the best as I'm leaning towards making my custom chapter a IF sucessor :(

You really shouldn't let that stop you. People have always tried finding ways to make their Marines work and not suck. If your created Chapter is an Imperial Fists successor and they end up being super powerful, you should be happy. Keeping your custom colors is just a way to make your Marines functional. I know I've done that and I have several HQ units I designed to use as stand-ins in various armies.

Now granted, nothing should be absurdly powerful where it's an auto-choice. That's not the fault of us though.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:55:21


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:58:07


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].

I think a 60% chance to succeed a charge from Deep Strike makes them a winner, really. The mortal wound protection is just icing on the cake after that, and we haven't an idea if their Strats might be at least mediocre.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/08 23:59:43


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].

I think a 60% chance to succeed a charge from Deep Strike makes them a winner, really. The mortal wound protection is just icing on the cake after that, and we haven't an idea if their Strats might be at least mediocre.


To charge with what, though? If this is anything like the last three Codices then we're gonna be getting a bunch of really great shooting units that make no sense to play as BT


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:00:58


Post by: Ishagu


Everything can get extra attacks and extra AP in combat now?

Reivers, Intercessors, Termies maybe?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:03:55


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].

I think a 60% chance to succeed a charge from Deep Strike makes them a winner, really. The mortal wound protection is just icing on the cake after that, and we haven't an idea if their Strats might be at least mediocre.


To charge with what, though? If this is anything like the last three Codices then we're gonna be getting a bunch of really great shooting units that make no sense to play as BT

Um, anything that Deep Strikes? Granted you'll need to supplement with Infiltrators to help with denying screens and probably TFCs to help clear other screens, but I would've been doing that anyway.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:07:44


Post by: Daedalus81


 Ishagu wrote:
Everything can get extra attacks and extra AP in combat now?

Reivers, Intercessors, Termies maybe?


Yea there is no shortage of viable units. Dual CS VV getting 5A each at AP1 is no joke.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:13:47


Post by: Crazyterran


So there now I have to choose on my Leviathans between an extra -1 AP or no penalties for moving and shooting? :O :O



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:14:11


Post by: DoomMouse


Black templar full tactical termi squad sounds good.

40 S4 AP-1 storm bolters at 24" on the drop
Then have around 60% chance to make a charge, if they get in with shock assault they'll happily kill a knight if you use the 'fight again' strat


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:21:31


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:43:10


Post by: BrianDavion


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.


I assumed the 40 S4 AP -1 storm bolter shots was being assumed to clear that screen


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:46:57


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


And then you're stood 12.1" away from the Knight because you're not allowed to be within 9" of the screen. Even in death they still serve.

At least there's a bunch of options to go after the screens with. I just worry that everyone is getting really elated over Marines essentially going back to the same melee power we had last edition, and that wasn't enough last edition.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:49:56


Post by: Insectum7


Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:55:24


Post by: BrianDavion


 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:58:54


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 00:59:45


Post by: Xenomancers


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

No this is an attempt to make things not worth their points...worth their points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

An advancing line of marines? What a thought....


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 01:09:08


Post by: BrianDavion


An advancing line of marines? What a thought....


yeah all these chanegs sound like they're designed to make marines play at least semi like how their fluff describes them


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 02:00:38


Post by: Xenomancers


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

As a player of tactical marines you must be ecstatic. tactical marines are getting big buffs here. So are devs in drop pods. Heck the drop pod might even go down in cost?!!?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 02:12:59


Post by: Nevelon


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.


The ability to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty on speeders will help to bring them back to life. The -1 they took in 8th really hurt them. Looking forward to my TML/HB speeders drifting about the backfield, and my MM speeders noseing up to tanks again.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 03:18:59


Post by: Peregrine


JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 03:23:32


Post by: Grimskul


 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?


Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 03:46:09


Post by: Insectum7


Yeah, not a fan of all the extra rules. I could do with a couple and then let it lie, maybe just using some generic stratagems that all factions had access to.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 03:59:10


Post by: Grimskul


 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, not a fan of all the extra rules. I could do with a couple and then let it lie, maybe just using some generic stratagems that all factions had access to.


The worst part is the salt in the wound this must be to the CSM players, having their recent update compared to this must leave a particularly foul taste in their mouth. Word Bearers players must be tearing their eyes out. I guess they really want life to imitate art and make CSM players feel bitter over the loyalists. The Long War for updates continues...


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 04:07:11


Post by: pm713


Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 04:12:46


Post by: Argive


pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Being cast by a better eldrad


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 04:15:02


Post by: Grimskul


pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Yeah, I noticed that as well. Gotta demonstrate that power creep by showing one of the premiere psychic races how its done. SM master race bois!


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 04:20:24


Post by: Eldarain


This really does feel like the biggest Power boost of the edition. Has any other release seemed like such an across the board boost? Maybe when they were previewing GSC?

Now we move into the next phase. Waiting for adjusted points. If they remain the same/cheaper we will then move into the "just wait for the books to all be redone at this level" comments which are both funny and sad and last just until the follow up turd of a book because the idea that there is a coherent design philosophy at play here is absurd.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 04:20:32


Post by: Breton


 Vankraken wrote:


Some people would fully endorse pay to win if that is what GW is selling. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if people demanded you buy the book in order to use the power cre.. i mean new rules.


You mean all these years you haven't needed to provide the rule you're using for your opponent to read and see how it works?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.
Personally I would have preferred they change the Ultras tactic to +1 Leadership and can chose their doctrine for every unit every turn. So basically their tactic would be ap-1 +1 LD. It would have been on the same power level as the other tactics then and they wouldn't need this special rule. The special rule is actually better as you will just build your army around a single discipline and stay on whats best for them and it wouldn't have created the I get to move and act as stationary shenanigans. I still think other chapters have a lot to offer though. Ultras will be the better infantry spam army. Imperial fists and ironhands will be the best gunlines.


That wouldn't have been fluffy. Ultras and this three headed hydra discipline thing has always been about using all three at various times because they're the vanilla marines who specialize in not specializing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Well, word on the street is that Imperial Fists and Iron Hands is what most people will gravitate towards once everything is out.

I am so going to judge the hell out of people playing Blue Horseshoe Imperial Fists and Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.


I assumed the 40 S4 AP -1 storm bolter shots was being assumed to clear that screen


40 shots, almost 27 hit, almost 18 wound (T3), 15 wounds 5+, 12 on Carapace/Cover. And you're still 1"+ from where the guardsmen were - which is 10"<X>20ish" from the Knight not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.


I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

As a player of tactical marines you must be ecstatic. tactical marines are getting big buffs here. So are devs in drop pods. Heck the drop pod might even go down in cost?!!?


Not Dev's in the Pod, SG with Plas. They're already not penalized for moving and firing, and you can Pod almost guaranteed rapid fire no need to risk rolling that 1 for number of shots and you save about 5 points you can use for more SG with (Combi)Plas. Do the plasma get the extra -1 to AP or is it bolter only - I haven't seen the link yet? If they get it, that -3 becomes -4 and you lose even your 6+ save after mods. Terminators will be somewhat unaffected- they were already "sort of" on their Invuln, either was at 5+ (or 3+ with SS)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarain wrote:
This really does feel like the biggest Power boost of the edition. Has any other release seemed like such an across the board boost? Maybe when they were previewing GSC?

Now we move into the next phase. Waiting for adjusted points. If they remain the same/cheaper we will then move into the "just wait for the books to all be redone at this level" comments which are both funny and sad and last just until the follow up turd of a book because the idea that there is a coherent design philosophy at play here is absurd.


It helps they had more room to creep up. When you're so far below, you have to climb higher to get even.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 09:11:20


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Grimskul wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?


Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.


Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 09:15:05


Post by: BrianDavion


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?


Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.


Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.


well chaos shou;ldn't have turned traitor! kidding, I've got a CSM army myself so yeah this burns me. :(


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 09:16:52


Post by: Not Online!!!


BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?


Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.


Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.


well chaos shou;ldn't have turned traitor! kidding, I've got a CSM army myself so yeah this burns me. :(
The doctrines i find agrivating far less.
I find the trait issue waaaaaaay more agrivating, especially with the dex 2.0 not fixing them and 2-3 month later the traits got fixed for vanilla sans spikes.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 09:18:15


Post by: BrianDavion


Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?


Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.


Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.


well chaos shou;ldn't have turned traitor! kidding, I've got a CSM army myself so yeah this burns me. :(
The doctrines i find agrivating far less.
I find the trait issue waaaaaaay more agrivating, especially with the dex 2.0 not fixing them and 2-3 month later the traits got fixed for vanilla sans spikes.


I agree. once I have the codex in my hand I might move through the design a chapter rules and propose some proposed alternatives to CSM legion tactics.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 09:22:53


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:

I agree. once I have the codex in my hand I might move through the design a chapter rules and propose some proposed alternatives to CSM legion tactics.


I'd have to see what I was giving up to play vanilla counts as chaos. They do have a habit of recycling the same basic rule into different armies with a new name - not always as obviously and frequently as Objective Secured - but still with the same spirit. That doesn't mean you could or even should be able to draw a strictly parallel line between a Chaos Legion and a SM chapter for Tactic, units, etc.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 09:24:26


Post by: fraser1191


Hasn't it been almost half a year since the chaos book? It was in March right?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 09:27:33


Post by: Not Online!!!


I don't even want DIY for Chaos, considering the stratagems that CSM have it is better TO NOT implement DIY there, (Purge trait +Slaanesh anyone?)

Or doctrines, it's imo high time that SM get something like that. I just doubt the balance of some of these, heavily.

What pisses me off is the blatant cashgrab that changed nothing for CSM that was the dex 2.0.
No additional units for the basic legions to diversify them from one another. (like seriously, you could've easily given AL saboteur squads, WB get crusaders,etc. NOT that difficult) yet GW couldn't even be bothered to propperly fix the traits?

This will also lead to a spread of more mini marine factions. Fine, but why do the nuns finally get a update that si still swamped with marines?
Why didn't Orkz get new and improved ladz?
Why the feth could i go in a bar and drink with the sculpts of aspect warriors?
And yet GW didn't even release a bunch of eliminators as a box.....





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Hasn't it been almost half a year since the chaos book? It was in March right?


5 months but with the fact that the traits were mirrored and that each book probably has 6 months in advance, atleast, do you think it would not have been possible or decent to do so?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 10:33:41


Post by: DoomMouse


BrianDavion wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.


I assumed the 40 S4 AP -1 storm bolter shots was being assumed to clear that screen


I was more thinking along the lines of slightly later in the game when people have had to commit units to taking our the rest of your army. Some good stuff is likely going to be exposed.

And if not, you can attempt to position yourself to use the termis to tri point an outlying screen to protect them from shooting for a turn



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 10:49:38


Post by: BrianDavion


Not Online!!! wrote:
I don't even want DIY for Chaos, considering the stratagems that CSM have it is better TO NOT implement DIY there, (Purge trait +Slaanesh anyone?)

Or doctrines, it's imo high time that SM get something like that. I just doubt the balance of some of these, heavily.

What pisses me off is the blatant cashgrab that changed nothing for CSM that was the dex 2.0.
No additional units for the basic legions to diversify them from one another. (like seriously, you could've easily given AL saboteur squads, WB get crusaders,etc. NOT that difficult) yet GW couldn't even be bothered to propperly fix the traits?

This will also lead to a spread of more mini marine factions. Fine, but why do the nuns finally get a update that si still swamped with marines?
Why didn't Orkz get new and improved ladz?
Why the feth could i go in a bar and drink with the sculpts of aspect warriors?
And yet GW didn't even release a bunch of eliminators as a box.....





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Hasn't it been almost half a year since the chaos book? It was in March right?


5 months but with the fact that the traits were mirrored and that each book probably has 6 months in advance, atleast, do you think it would not have been possible or decent to do so?


claiming Chaos got no additional units in their new codex is... wrong, very very very wrong. and demanding unique units for each legion is... a bit of a strange request. outside of characters I can only think of one army that did that, and I don't think we should really count crusader squads, considering


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 11:03:43


Post by: fraser1191


I'm not a huge fan of unique units outside of characters.

Victrix honour guard is one I can get behind, unique but not super powerful cause they're unique. They can also be recreated more or less too since they just have power swords and storm shields. That being said seeing a chapter master release with some honour guard is what I'd love to see from GW for Shrike or Lysander


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 11:27:58


Post by: Not Online!!!


BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I don't even want DIY for Chaos, considering the stratagems that CSM have it is better TO NOT implement DIY there, (Purge trait +Slaanesh anyone?)

Or doctrines, it's imo high time that SM get something like that. I just doubt the balance of some of these, heavily.

What pisses me off is the blatant cashgrab that changed nothing for CSM that was the dex 2.0.
No additional units for the basic legions to diversify them from one another. (like seriously, you could've easily given AL saboteur squads, WB get crusaders,etc. NOT that difficult) yet GW couldn't even be bothered to propperly fix the traits?

This will also lead to a spread of more mini marine factions. Fine, but why do the nuns finally get a update that si still swamped with marines?
Why didn't Orkz get new and improved ladz?
Why the feth could i go in a bar and drink with the sculpts of aspect warriors?
And yet GW didn't even release a bunch of eliminators as a box.....





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Hasn't it been almost half a year since the chaos book? It was in March right?


5 months but with the fact that the traits were mirrored and that each book probably has 6 months in advance, atleast, do you think it would not have been possible or decent to do so?


claiming Chaos got no additional units in their new codex is... wrong, very very very wrong. and demanding unique units for each legion is... a bit of a strange request. outside of characters I can only think of one army that did that, and I don't think we should really count crusader squads, considering


Like what?
Lord discordant, MoP, venomcrawler and greater possesed.
That's it.
Add of these what was truly unique or new?
Lord discordant and the venomcrawler.
And reminds me, where do most of these come from?
Shadowspear?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 12:05:57


Post by: TheFleshIsWeak


 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?


But Peregrine, how can GW possibly demonstrate how special and awsome SMs are without giving them 200 unique rules?

And on top of that, how could they possibly demonstrate how extra-special and super-awsome Ultramarines are without giving them 200 extra unique rules?

There's just no other way.



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 12:27:30


Post by: Daedalus81


 Grimskul wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, not a fan of all the extra rules. I could do with a couple and then let it lie, maybe just using some generic stratagems that all factions had access to.


The worst part is the salt in the wound this must be to the CSM players, having their recent update compared to this must leave a particularly foul taste in their mouth. Word Bearers players must be tearing their eyes out. I guess they really want life to imitate art and make CSM players feel bitter over the loyalists. The Long War for updates continues...


Maybe if we apologize for all the bad stuff they'll let us back in?

We did still get lots of excellent updates. CSM will be fine.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 12:32:29


Post by: Breton


BrianDavion wrote:


claiming Chaos got no additional units in their new codex is... wrong, very very very wrong. and demanding unique units for each legion is... a bit of a strange request. outside of characters I can only think of one army that did that, and I don't think we should really count crusader squads, considering


I'm getting lost? Are we talking BT Crusaders, AM Crusaders, or some sort of Chaos unit called Crusaders? If we're talking about Loyalist unique units (Like BT Crusaders) and Chaos not getting them - I was distracted by the Plaguemarines, Rubric Marines Noise Marines, and Berzerkers. And Yes, Loyalists get more than Crusaders. Tyranic War Veterans, Honor Guard, Deathwing, Ravenwing, Death Company, Baal Preds and the like.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 12:46:16


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, not a fan of all the extra rules. I could do with a couple and then let it lie, maybe just using some generic stratagems that all factions had access to.


The worst part is the salt in the wound this must be to the CSM players, having their recent update compared to this must leave a particularly foul taste in their mouth. Word Bearers players must be tearing their eyes out. I guess they really want life to imitate art and make CSM players feel bitter over the loyalists. The Long War for updates continues...


Maybe if we apologize for all the bad stuff they'll let us back in?

We did still get lots of excellent updates. CSM will be fine.


Yeah but only if you aren't playing the stupid snowflake legions.....

Edit: Don't get me wrong, differentiating the legions is all fine and dandy, especially for the cult legions.
But i am personally annoyed that it is just cult legions and BL that get all the love, while the rest can basically sit idly by and turning thumbs.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 13:01:50


Post by: Breton


 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of unique units outside of characters.

Victrix honour guard is one I can get behind, unique but not super powerful cause they're unique. They can also be recreated more or less too since they just have power swords and storm shields. That being said seeing a chapter master release with some honour guard is what I'd love to see from GW for Shrike or Lysander


Um when you say unique do you mean limit 1? The nice thing about Victrix is their wound intercepting is worded correctly. The downside is they're expensive for it. But not that bad. In fact, now I'm thinking about how much fun multiple detach'es of them could be.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 13:17:04


Post by: Reemule


Just popped into see if people are past denial stage and into acceptance... Nope. Looks like some are still in denial stage.

I think I'm going to model my Rocket Pod on my Redemptor now. It wasn't worth the points before as it was always moving and I found it to be way to many times where I was trying to roll 5+ to hit, but now I can reliably be at 2+ or 4+, Its getting put on.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 13:25:29


Post by: fraser1191


Breton wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of unique units outside of characters.

Victrix honour guard is one I can get behind, unique but not super powerful cause they're unique. They can also be recreated more or less too since they just have power swords and storm shields. That being said seeing a chapter master release with some honour guard is what I'd love to see from GW for Shrike or Lysander


Um when you say unique do you mean limit 1? The nice thing about Victrix is their wound intercepting is worded correctly. The downside is they're expensive for it. But not that bad. In fact, now I'm thinking about how much fun multiple detach'es of them could be.


No I mean units like the librarian dreadnought. Not a huge stretch for other factions to have it but it's unique to BA. Victrix guard can be pretty much be created with company vets (I think they have the body guard rule) but I can't just make a librarian dread if I'm UM or white scars for instance.

And what do you mean Victrix guards rule is worded correctly?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/09 17:25:45


Post by: Brainling


As an Ultramarine Primaris player, looks like buffs all the way down for me. My army will just be better when I wake up next Saturday.

I already run 2x Victrix Honor Guard as a wound battery for Roboute. 64 points to keep him on the board longer is worth every point.

Intercessors and Aggressors are top notch scoot and shoot units with Scions of Guilliman and Bolter Discipline, w/ re-roll everything and Assault Doctrine. Oh and they can fallback and shoot, so have fun pinning them down.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 04:12:27


Post by: Breton


 fraser1191 wrote:
Breton wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of unique units outside of characters.

Victrix honour guard is one I can get behind, unique but not super powerful cause they're unique. They can also be recreated more or less too since they just have power swords and storm shields. That being said seeing a chapter master release with some honour guard is what I'd love to see from GW for Shrike or Lysander


Um when you say unique do you mean limit 1? The nice thing about Victrix is their wound intercepting is worded correctly. The downside is they're expensive for it. But not that bad. In fact, now I'm thinking about how much fun multiple detach'es of them could be.


No I mean units like the librarian dreadnought. Not a huge stretch for other factions to have it but it's unique to BA. Victrix guard can be pretty much be created with company vets (I think they have the body guard rule) but I can't just make a librarian dread if I'm UM or white scars for instance.

And what do you mean Victrix guards rule is worded correctly?


Company Vets - depending on how literally your group plays, doesn't intercept all the wounds on the hit, even though it intercepts the hit because on Company Vets wound(s) isnt plural, but on Victrix Guard it is.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 12:17:20


Post by: Shadenuat


 Argive wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Being cast by a better eldrad

2d6+2 is 9 which is same as most Ld on characters out there, so same 50/50 as Mind War, but Mind War takes character's own Ld into consideration and Eldar have way more rules to lower enemy Ld so I wouldn't say it's that much better. And then there's Cult Mind War which while nerfed a bit is still way more powerful.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 12:24:28


Post by: Breton


 Shadenuat wrote:
 Argive wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Being cast by a better eldrad

2d6+2 is 9 which is same as most Ld on characters out there, so same 50/50 as Mind War, but Mind War takes character's own Ld into consideration and Eldar have way more rules to lower enemy Ld so I wouldn't say it's that much better. And then there's Cult Mind War which while nerfed a bit is still way more powerful.


He's an Ultramarine, he's Ld 10 when you take him right.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 14:04:36


Post by: Argive


 Shadenuat wrote:
 Argive wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Being cast by a better eldrad

2d6+2 is 9 which is same as most Ld on characters out there, so same 50/50 as Mind War, but Mind War takes character's own Ld into consideration and Eldar have way more rules to lower enemy Ld so I wouldn't say it's that much better. And then there's Cult Mind War which while nerfed a bit is still way more powerful.


I meant more like he has a +1 to cast off the bat and doesnt tie your detatcjement into playing a crappy fnp. I dont know what cwe have to lower ld apart from shadow specters...


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 14:09:35


Post by: pm713


 Argive wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
 Argive wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Being cast by a better eldrad

2d6+2 is 9 which is same as most Ld on characters out there, so same 50/50 as Mind War, but Mind War takes character's own Ld into consideration and Eldar have way more rules to lower enemy Ld so I wouldn't say it's that much better. And then there's Cult Mind War which while nerfed a bit is still way more powerful.


I meant more like he has a +1 to cast off the bat and doesnt tie your detatcjement into playing a crappy fnp. I dont know what cwe have to lower ld apart from shadow specters...

There's a Warlock power and the Hemlock but considering that you can use Tiggy to blow holes in any unit not just characters I don't really see how Mind War is comparable.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 14:12:01


Post by: Argive


pm713 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
 Argive wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.


Being cast by a better eldrad

2d6+2 is 9 which is same as most Ld on characters out there, so same 50/50 as Mind War, but Mind War takes character's own Ld into consideration and Eldar have way more rules to lower enemy Ld so I wouldn't say it's that much better. And then there's Cult Mind War which while nerfed a bit is still way more powerful.


I meant more like he has a +1 to cast off the bat and doesnt tie your detatcjement into playing a crappy fnp. I dont know what cwe have to lower ld apart from shadow specters...

There's a Warlock power and the Hemlock but considering that you can use Tiggy to blow holes in any unit not just characters I don't really see how Mind War is comparable.


Ohh yeah derp. I dont use them so forgot lol.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 17:07:36


Post by: Shadenuat


There are all the other eldar factions too, like Harlies.
I don't see why compare it to MW either though. IMO Executioner is a better power to throw around on moment to moment basis.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 18:50:35


Post by: Crimson


So Ultrarines have a relic melee weapon that can replace a combat blade. Why oh why could that have not been a generic relic? Now the Ultras are the only chapter which can have Reiver Lieutenants hat can actually fight... I'm sure many of the more close combat oriented chapters would have loved that.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 19:08:15


Post by: DoomMouse


So I see guillimans aura got nerfed to only rerolling wounds rolls of one. Probably for the best. At least he's only 350pts now.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 19:28:21


Post by: pm713


 Shadenuat wrote:
There are all the other eldar factions too, like Harlies.
I don't see why compare it to MW either though. IMO Executioner is a better power to throw around on moment to moment basis.

Mind War is the power that compares to LD so that's the power that's now just a worse version of the smurf power.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 20:00:17


Post by: fraser1191


 DoomMouse wrote:
So I see guillimans aura got nerfed to only rerolling wounds rolls of one. Probably for the best. At least he's only 350pts now.


As I think Xenos pointed out he's now mechanically redundant for the most part but I think Breton pointed out that Gulliman would be better for just spreading out reroll 1s to hit since his aura is still 12" I think he's most likely only good for apocalypse now


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 20:58:02


Post by: The Forgemaster


 fraser1191 wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
So I see guillimans aura got nerfed to only rerolling wounds rolls of one. Probably for the best. At least he's only 350pts now.


As I think Xenos pointed out he's now mechanically redundant for the most part but I think Breton pointed out that Gulliman would be better for just spreading out reroll 1s to hit since his aura is still 12" I think he's most likely only good for apocalypse now


Which is a good thing - Primarchs etc. shouldn't turn up to every skirmish...


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 21:12:32


Post by: Daedalus81


 Crimson wrote:
So Ultrarines have a relic melee weapon that can replace a combat blade. Why oh why could that have not been a generic relic? Now the Ultras are the only chapter which can have Reiver Lieutenants hat can actually fight... I'm sure many of the more close combat oriented chapters would have loved that.


Might be best to just wait and see what others get.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/10 21:16:39


Post by: BrianDavion


Gulliman doesn't get his chapter tactics eaither assuming you take him in a super heavy auxillery.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 05:54:34


Post by: Breton


 fraser1191 wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
So I see guillimans aura got nerfed to only rerolling wounds rolls of one. Probably for the best. At least he's only 350pts now.


As I think Xenos pointed out he's now mechanically redundant for the most part but I think Breton pointed out that Gulliman would be better for just spreading out reroll 1s to hit since his aura is still 12" I think he's most likely only good for apocalypse now


Oh I'd disagree with that. He's still buffing 400-ish points of Aura. 2 Captains, a Chapter Master, and a Lieutenant, plus being a beast in CCW. The reasons I took Calgar+LT over Guillian weren't about his aura - Calgar+LT was cheaper, fit in a transport, and could be healed. IF GW pops it's head out of it's... well if they wise up and allow Apothecary's to heal Guilliman, I'd probably field him some of the time. As it is I probably still will field him some of the time as he's even cheaper.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 06:18:36


Post by: Crazyterran


My money is on the Seal of Oath being our best relic. The ability to let a cheap character essentially pick a Knight or something else for death and letting all units with 6" of that character reroll hits and wounds against it means it's going to die.



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 06:38:03


Post by: Ishagu


Guilliman was hit too hard. His aura can be replicated for cheaper, but the real issue is the fact that he's a LoW and not A HQ. It means you still need multiple other characters in the list, and suddenly you find yourself with an even smaller, more elite army that hasn't gained much offensive capabilities.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 07:05:48


Post by: Xenomancers


 The Forgemaster wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
So I see guillimans aura got nerfed to only rerolling wounds rolls of one. Probably for the best. At least he's only 350pts now.


As I think Xenos pointed out he's now mechanically redundant for the most part but I think Breton pointed out that Gulliman would be better for just spreading out reroll 1s to hit since his aura is still 12" I think he's most likely only good for apocalypse now


Which is a good thing - Primarchs etc. shouldn't turn up to every skirmish...
Yeah okay...we get it - you don't like gman. We are talking about competitive builds. People bring the best stuff. Like every imperial list having 3 blood angels captains or 3 custodian captains is any better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Guilliman was hit too hard. His aura can be replicated for cheaper, but the real issue is the fact that he's a LoW and not A HQ. It means you still need multiple other characters in the list, and suddenly you find yourself with an even smaller, more elite army that hasn't gained much offensive capabilities.
Yep - he should have dropped to 300 points or gained a 12" reroll all hits aura for ultras. Instead. If you include him you basically have to play exacly as you did before but dont get nearly the benifit you did before - ergo - you shoudlnt take him. Unless you are running an gaurd and knights army - he got a lot better for doing that. I've actually won 3 torunaments doing exacty that. I'm happy with the buff.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 07:28:45


Post by: Breton


 Ishagu wrote:
Guilliman was hit too hard. His aura can be replicated for cheaper, but the real issue is the fact that he's a LoW and not A HQ. It means you still need multiple other characters in the list, and suddenly you find yourself with an even smaller, more elite army that hasn't gained much offensive capabilities.


Repeating the same falsehood after it's been debunked doesn't make it true. A 12 inch Reroll1's, 6" reroll all hits, 6" reroll 1's to wound requires 3 Captains - one upgraded to a Chapter Master, and a Lieutenant to get close to, but still less than the area covered by the 12 inch aura Guilliman has. I know you play at the highest level of the highest tournaments, but the lowest level of the lowest geometry student can find the area of a circle on the internet by googling Area Calculator. 3 Base Captains and 1 Lieutenant plus a Chapter Master Strategem costs 291, -3 CP. If you make them base Primaris it's 320 -3CP. If you make at least one Cap Gravis or Phobos Primaris it goes up higher (This could also go down in the new Codex). Guilliman costs 350 and +3CP. And you're still behind on Aura size. And you haven't added the Charge/Advance component of the Aura which can't be done with points and IF it can be done will require a Strategem costing more CP - the far more costly part of your claim when you've already swung 6CP in an Army lucky to pull down 11.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 07:57:24


Post by: Stux


The aura size really isn't as big a deal as you're making out Breton. Guilliman was primarily used as a parking lot anyway, and I have no issue keeping my Dark Angels gunline in 6" of Azrael and a lieutenant.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 08:06:54


Post by: Crazyterran


A Captain upgrade to a CM with a Relic Blade and master of strategy warlord trait, a LT with a Power Axe and Oath, and 3 Scout Squads is 303 pts, gets you a net of 3cp, a better warlord trait, a relic, bodies on the table, and could still use the UM supplement with successor traits!

Other than the beefy Guilliman body and the charge rerolls, which are questionable in an army that prefers to shoot most of the time (you can build for melee, but... why UM then?). You save 47pts, so you could upgrade the Scouts to Tacs or throw heavy weapons on or even an apothecary to help keep those characters up.. not to mention the rest of the slots in the Batallion.

Guilliman not really offering anything over a Batallion is kind of a weak spot for him. He's by no means a weak choice, but I don't think he's the most competitive anymore.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 08:33:55


Post by: Breton


 Stux wrote:
The aura size really isn't as big a deal as you're making out Breton. Guilliman was primarily used as a parking lot anyway, and I have no issue keeping my Dark Angels gunline in 6" of Azrael and a lieutenant.


I'm not saying the aura is a big deal. He's a beat stick too. And gives 3CP. And reincarnates. I was using Calgar/LT before he came down in price because I already had priorities other than his aura. I'm saying making the demonstrably false claim you can get the same aura for cheaper when you can't is something of a big deal.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 08:38:10


Post by: Ice_can


Breton wrote:
 Stux wrote:
The aura size really isn't as big a deal as you're making out Breton. Guilliman was primarily used as a parking lot anyway, and I have no issue keeping my Dark Angels gunline in 6" of Azrael and a lieutenant.


I'm not saying the aura is a big deal. He's a beat stick too. And gives 3CP. And reincarnates. I was using Calgar/LT before he came down in price because I already had priorities other than his aura. I'm saying making the demonstrably false claim you can get the same aura for cheaper when you can't is something of a big deal.

Except your counting the cost of all of the charictors, you already have to take 2 of them as tax hq's for a battalion.

He compaired to 2 captains is a lot of points, not OMG terrible but I doubt he's worth it given the ability to either target charictors or just pump out targeted MW some lists now have.
He'll probably see more play outside of marine's than in them i suspect.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 08:44:49


Post by: Breton


Ice_can wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Stux wrote:
The aura size really isn't as big a deal as you're making out Breton. Guilliman was primarily used as a parking lot anyway, and I have no issue keeping my Dark Angels gunline in 6" of Azrael and a lieutenant.


I'm not saying the aura is a big deal. He's a beat stick too. And gives 3CP. And reincarnates. I was using Calgar/LT before he came down in price because I already had priorities other than his aura. I'm saying making the demonstrably false claim you can get the same aura for cheaper when you can't is something of a big deal.

Except your counting the cost of all of the charictors, you already have to take 2 of them as tax hq's for a battalion.

He compaired to 2 captains is a lot of points, not OMG terrible but I doubt he's worth it given the ability to either target charictors or just pump out targeted MW some lists now have.
He'll probably see more play outside of marine's than in them i suspect.


No, I'm counting Square Inches of Aura. You can make a list with Telion and Chronus and not have a single aura for the price of what... a gravis captain?. But his claim was Aura per cost, so that's what I counted. You folks keep wanting to turn it into a he's too good or not good enough argument - I'm just counting square inches of relatively objective fact.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 08:55:33


Post by: BrianDavion


watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 09:20:24


Post by: Ishagu


I'm sorry Breton, but the biggest weakness of the new Astartes is still numbers and durability.

Guilliman is useful, no question. However the downside to needing further characters, many of whom are quite expensive (in particular if running Primaris) means that you ultimately end up with a smaller army and less assets, and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.

And it's not like Calgar is a slouch.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 10:02:13


Post by: Breton


 Ishagu wrote:
and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.


OK. Please show us the list that provides 450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit, bonuses to charges and advances, also containing 113 square inches of reroll all hits and 1's to wound for UM, that costs less than 350 points and a 6CP Swing.

The HQ's aren't mandatory. As mentioned you can fill the HQ's with Telion and Chronus for the cost of about a Gravis Captain. Also, repeating TWO false statements - "for cheaper" and "Mandatory" does not make either true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )


I'm surprised by that. I didn't think they wanted the generic company of the generic chapter to have a named captain. I expected them to leave Sicarius Floating as a special Captain or some such. Guilliman/Calgar's personal trouble shooter or some such.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 10:07:01


Post by: Ishagu


Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.


OK. Please show us the list that provides 450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit, bonuses to charges and advances, also containing 113 square inches of reroll all hits and 1's to wound for UM, that costs less than 350 points and a 6CP Swing.

The HQ's aren't mandatory. As mentioned you can fill the HQ's with Telion and Chronus for the cost of about a Gravis Captain. Also, repeating TWO false statements - "for cheaper" and "Mandatory" does not make either true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )


I'm surprised by that. I didn't think they wanted the generic company of the generic chapter to have a named captain. I expected them to leave Sicarius Floating as a special Captain or some such. Guilliman/Calgar's personal trouble shooter or some such.


I can get re rolls in many ways thought the book. Stratagems, abilities, extra HQs.

The 12" aura is really not a big deal I'm afraid. Especially as I can increase the auras of generic characters though options in the new books. For free.

I would rather bring an additional unit than gain that 12" aura that I don't care about.
It's more beneficial for Knights than Marines, ironically.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 10:16:54


Post by: BrianDavion


Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
and an aura that you can replicate with cheaper, mandatory HQs.


OK. Please show us the list that provides 450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit, bonuses to charges and advances, also containing 113 square inches of reroll all hits and 1's to wound for UM, that costs less than 350 points and a 6CP Swing.

The HQ's aren't mandatory. As mentioned you can fill the HQ's with Telion and Chronus for the cost of about a Gravis Captain. Also, repeating TWO false statements - "for cheaper" and "Mandatory" does not make either true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
watching one of the reviews on a lore front looks like it's offical Cato Sicirus is back in charge of 2nd company. I suspected that would be the case after they unceramoniously killed Acheran in Shadowspear (seriously how many people even NOTICED that? )


I'm surprised by that. I didn't think they wanted the generic company of the generic chapter to have a named captain. I expected them to leave Sicarius Floating as a special Captain or some such. Guilliman/Calgar's personal trouble shooter or some such.


in fairness a lot of the generic companies have the named HQ choice. the space wovles are another example.



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 10:20:21


Post by: Breton


 Ishagu wrote:


I can get re rolls in many ways thought the book. Stratagems, abilities, extra HQs.

The 12" aura is really not a big deal I'm afraid. Especially as I can increase the auras of generic characters though options in the new books. For free.

I would rather bring an additional unit than gain that 12" aura that I don't care about.
It's more beneficial for Knights than Marines, ironically.


I'm sorry, that STILL wasn't your claim. You seem to have some sort of mental block with defending the things you say are true and then changing what you said when you can't.. I'm still waiting - Surely someone who plays at the highest levels of the highest tournaments can manage some of the lowest level of the lowest geometry class and some basic addition - 450 square inches of 1 to hit, and bonus Advance/Charge containing 113 square inches of all hits, and 1's to wound for less than 350 points and 6CP. Go.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 10:25:58


Post by: Al Haquis


Strange that no one is talking about Bobby G's new warlord trait which i think is a huge improvement from his old one seeing Tiggy can replicate that one with a spell.

Bobby is still a beat stick and i would argue that he became a bigger one after the changes.

For me personally he is almost a "auto include" seeing i play a moving castle style of game.

Currently i am super tempted to pair Bobby with Vanguard Vets with chainswords and shields.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 10:36:25


Post by: Breton


Al Haquis wrote:
Strange that no one is talking about Bobby G's new warlord trait


Nobody wants to tip off people to the Heroic Intervention Spam whining before they absolutely have to.

Yes, I know I'm 2" away from everything you have.

No I'm not charging.

OK charging is done.

Heroic Intervention time.

Here I come

Everything Heroically Intervenes.

And Gets Shock Assault because of it.

Fight Phase!

People already hated the Characters Heroically Intervening all the way across the board because the rule stupidly didn't specify any required relationship to a pre-existing or newly created close combat. Now it gets to be EVERYTHING.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 10:51:11


Post by: Al Haquis


And now we can agree Breton that Bobby G is quite viable and allows for a new tactic that didn't exist on this scale before.

Basically Bobby was and is a auto take in my traveling tournament lists.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 11:04:27


Post by: Breton


Al Haquis wrote:
And now we can agree Breton that Bobby G is quite viable and allows for a new tactic that didn't exist on this scale before.

Basically Bobby was and is a auto take in my traveling tournament lists.


Nah, he's not auto take. He's not bad. Nothing is auto-take. The closest is probably Intercessors or Tacticals.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 11:19:39


Post by: Ishagu


I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 11:23:44


Post by: Breton


 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.


I'm still waiting for that 450 square inches of aura cheaper than 350 points and 6CP.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 11:44:29


Post by: Ishagu


Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.


I'm still waiting for that 450 square inches of aura cheaper than 350 points and 6CP.


That aura isn't worth the extra points and extra detachment slot over Calgar and a Lieutenant.

I'm not saying they can replicate it. I'm saying it's not worth it.

You go right ahead and use Guilliman. I'll use him too, I love the model and I think his cc ability is still a force on the tabletop. I just feel he's not the optimum choice, and if I'm building a very specific, hight optimisation list, then I won't be taking him.

Of course I could be all wrong. That's why I'm going to be testing the unit against a variety of opponents.

I just happen to know that the 12" aura hasn't been particularly beneficial for me in my many games with the Primarch.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 11:58:01


Post by: Breton


 Ishagu wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.


I'm still waiting for that 450 square inches of aura cheaper than 350 points and 6CP.


That aura isn't worth the extra points and extra detachment slot over Calgar and a Lieutenant.

I'm not saying they can replicate it. I'm saying it's not worth it.
]That is incorrect. You said - multiple times - you could get the same aura for cheaper.
You go right ahead and use Guilliman. I'll use him too, I love the model and I think his cc ability is still a force on the tabletop. I just feel he's not the optimum choice, and if I'm building a very specific, hight optimisation list, then I won't be taking him.
Of course I could be all wrong. That's why I'm going to be testing the unit against a variety of opponents.

I just happen to know that the 12" aura hasn't been particularly beneficial for me in my many games with the Primarch.


Well I suppose all I can say to that is...

 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?


I mean, hell, I don't even play at the highest levels of the highest tournaments and I enjoy a nice 12" aura. Maybe you just need to play more?



Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 12:01:47


Post by: BrianDavion


https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/08/10/warhammer-40k-codex-supplement-ultramarines-review/

so a codex review thas actually written, for those who don't wanna listen to a hour long video


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 12:07:24


Post by: Ishagu


@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 13:03:46


Post by: Breton


 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.


450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?


 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?


Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 13:15:56


Post by: Crimson


 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah okay...we get it - you don't like gman. We are talking about competitive builds. People bring the best stuff.

If one unit is obviously 'the best' to the degree that is an auto-take (aside mandatory troops and HQs) then that's crap balancing.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 13:28:28


Post by: Ice_can


Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.


450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?


 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?


Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?

Yes 450 square inches of reroll 1's doesn't matter if your used to playing everything within the 6 inch bubble anyway.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 13:50:53


Post by: Ishagu


Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.


450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?


 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?


Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?


I mentioned the Soup because a somewhat niche Guilliman + Knights list is not affected and actually saved 50 points.

He's strictly worse for actual Ultramarines


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 13:52:08


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Ishagu wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
@Breton

I'm talking about the aura that actually matters. Re roll all hits and re roll wound rolls of 1.
The other one has minimal impact in an Astartes army, especially now that other HQs have dropped in price.


450 square inches of reroll 1's to hit doesn't matter?


 Ishagu wrote:


Why do you think I can get a decent use out of the unit but you can't?


Also, if the UM only 6” aura was all that mattered why were you talking about Imperium Soup?


I mentioned the Soup because a somewhat niche Guilliman + Knights list is not affected and actually saved 50 points.

He's strictly worse for actual Ultramarines


That's not what "strictly worse" means.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 13:53:42


Post by: Ishagu


What does it mean?


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 14:17:37


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Ishagu wrote:
What does it mean?


Strictly worse means there is, in isolation, no possible scenario where the object that is "strictly worse" than something else is better. There are scenarios, however niche, where the new Guilliman is better for Ultramarines than the old Guilliman. I'd agree that new Guilliman is a lot worse than before for pure Ultramarine players, but not strictly worse.


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 15:14:04


Post by: Daedalus81


In Defense of Bobby

He takes up a detachment and you need a second detachment with characters anyway, right?

That situation is greatly changed. Previously you'd never take a chaplain or a librarian, but now they're set to provide significant aid. Therefore you can add utility to the army without duplicating abilities.

UM can walk and gun by turn 2. Bobby buffs charging. UM still get the bonus attack. Pushing UM forward into melee can be viable and at the same time you're able to make sure Bobby gets full use of his profile.





Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 15:41:45


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

>Says Roboute is inferior to other combinations
>thinks Reivers are good and people need to L2P

Pick one, dude


Ultramarine supplemental preview is up @ 2019/08/11 16:33:57


Post by: Ishagu


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
I've never claimed he's bad now. He's just inferior to other options and combinations.

>Says Roboute is inferior to other combinations
>thinks Reivers are good and people need to L2P

Pick one, dude


Lol this made me laugh. Touché