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So there now I have to choose on my Leviathans between an extra -1 AP or no penalties for moving and shooting? :O :O

Black templar full tactical termi squad sounds good.

40 S4 AP-1 storm bolters at 24" on the drop
Then have around 60% chance to make a charge, if they get in with shock assault they'll happily kill a knight if you use the 'fight again' strat

Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.

I assumed the 40 S4 AP -1 storm bolter shots was being assumed to clear that screen

And then you're stood 12.1" away from the Knight because you're not allowed to be within 9" of the screen. Even in death they still serve.

At least there's a bunch of options to go after the screens with. I just worry that everyone is getting really elated over Marines essentially going back to the same melee power we had last edition, and that wasn't enough last edition.

Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

No this is an attempt to make things not worth their points...worth their points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

An advancing line of marines? What a thought....

An advancing line of marines? What a thought....

yeah all these chanegs sound like they're designed to make marines play at least semi like how their fluff describes them

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

As a player of tactical marines you must be ecstatic. tactical marines are getting big buffs here. So are devs in drop pods. Heck the drop pod might even go down in cost?!!?

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

The ability to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty on speeders will help to bring them back to life. The -1 they took in 8th really hurt them. Looking forward to my TML/HB speeders drifting about the backfield, and my MM speeders noseing up to tanks again.

JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?

 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?

Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.

Yeah, not a fan of all the extra rules. I could do with a couple and then let it lie, maybe just using some generic stratagems that all factions had access to.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, not a fan of all the extra rules. I could do with a couple and then let it lie, maybe just using some generic stratagems that all factions had access to.

The worst part is the salt in the wound this must be to the CSM players, having their recent update compared to this must leave a particularly foul taste in their mouth. Word Bearers players must be tearing their eyes out. I guess they really want life to imitate art and make CSM players feel bitter over the loyalists. The Long War for updates continues...

Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.

pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.

Being cast by a better eldrad

pm713 wrote:
Oh nice the new psychic power is like Mind War but better in every single way. Lovely.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Gotta demonstrate that power creep by showing one of the premiere psychic races how its done. SM master race bois!

This really does feel like the biggest Power boost of the edition. Has any other release seemed like such an across the board boost? Maybe when they were previewing GSC?

Now we move into the next phase. Waiting for adjusted points. If they remain the same/cheaper we will then move into the "just wait for the books to all be redone at this level" comments which are both funny and sad and last just until the follow up turd of a book because the idea that there is a coherent design philosophy at play here is absurd.

 Vankraken wrote:


Some people would fully endorse pay to win if that is what GW is selling. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if people demanded you buy the book in order to use the power cre.. i mean new rules.

You mean all these years you haven't needed to provide the rule you're using for your opponent to read and see how it works?


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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.

Personally I would have preferred they change the Ultras tactic to +1 Leadership and can chose their doctrine for every unit every turn. So basically their tactic would be ap-1 +1 LD. It would have been on the same power level as the other tactics then and they wouldn't need this special rule. The special rule is actually better as you will just build your army around a single discipline and stay on whats best for them and it wouldn't have created the I get to move and act as stationary shenanigans. I still think other chapters have a lot to offer though. Ultras will be the better infantry spam army. Imperial fists and ironhands will be the best gunlines.

That wouldn't have been fluffy. Ultras and this three headed hydra discipline thing has always been about using all three at various times because they're the vanilla marines who specialize in not specializing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Well, word on the street is that Imperial Fists and Iron Hands is what most people will gravitate towards once everything is out.

I am so going to judge the hell out of people playing Blue Horseshoe Imperial Fists and Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.

I assumed the 40 S4 AP -1 storm bolter shots was being assumed to clear that screen

40 shots, almost 27 hit, almost 18 wound (T3), 15 wounds 5+, 12 on Carapace/Cover. And you're still 1"+ from where the guardsmen were - which is 10"<X>20ish" from the Knight not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Scions of Gulliman is crazy good. No move penalty for heavy weapons and bolt weapons are rapid firing out to max range? Jeebus.

I think it's going to be a big game changer yeah, before this update Ultramarines where noted for castling with Gulliman, with these changes there's no reason the army can't be on the constant move just about. the end result is going to be a moving castle.. a... flying fortress I guess?

Well, mine wont be flying unless Land Speeders get an upgrade

Otherwise I'm looking at my Plasma Devastators wandering around and blazing away. I'm starting to think we'll see point increases with all these new abilities.

As a player of tactical marines you must be ecstatic. tactical marines are getting big buffs here. So are devs in drop pods. Heck the drop pod might even go down in cost?!!?

Not Dev's in the Pod, SG with Plas. They're already not penalized for moving and firing, and you can Pod almost guaranteed rapid fire no need to risk rolling that 1 for number of shots and you save about 5 points you can use for more SG with (Combi)Plas. Do the plasma get the extra -1 to AP or is it bolter only - I haven't seen the link yet? If they get it, that -3 becomes -4 and you lose even your 6+ save after mods. Terminators will be somewhat unaffected- they were already "sort of" on their Invuln, either was at 5+ (or 3+ with SS)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
This really does feel like the biggest Power boost of the edition. Has any other release seemed like such an across the board boost? Maybe when they were previewing GSC?

Now we move into the next phase. Waiting for adjusted points. If they remain the same/cheaper we will then move into the "just wait for the books to all be redone at this level" comments which are both funny and sad and last just until the follow up turd of a book because the idea that there is a coherent design philosophy at play here is absurd.

It helps they had more room to creep up. When you're so far below, you have to climb higher to get even.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?

Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.

Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?

Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.

Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.

well chaos shou;ldn't have turned traitor! kidding, I've got a CSM army myself so yeah this burns me. :(

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?

Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.

Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.

well chaos shou;ldn't have turned traitor! kidding, I've got a CSM army myself so yeah this burns me. :(

The doctrines i find agrivating far less.
I find the trait issue waaaaaaay more agrivating, especially with the dex 2.0 not fixing them and 2-3 month later the traits got fixed for vanilla sans spikes.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
JFC the rules bloat is insane. 16 ing stratagems. More special army-wide rules. More special unit rules. Could someone at GW please stop masturbating over their favorite faction and learn how to write elegant rules?

Yeah, this just ups the ante to almost formation levels of rules bloat. It's one thing to have revamped chapter tactics, but doctrines and all the caveats of Angels of Death on top of all the chapter-specific stratagems, warlord traits and now even psychic powers? Each chapter is now a mini-faction in its own right, rather than a subfaction. It's going to be a nightmare for someone to keep track of everything for marines, much less if they want to soup.

Issue would be less agrivating if it weren't for the fact that NOT everyone gets equal long pikes.

well chaos shou;ldn't have turned traitor! kidding, I've got a CSM army myself so yeah this burns me. :(

The doctrines i find agrivating far less.
I find the trait issue waaaaaaay more agrivating, especially with the dex 2.0 not fixing them and 2-3 month later the traits got fixed for vanilla sans spikes.

I agree. once I have the codex in my hand I might move through the design a chapter rules and propose some proposed alternatives to CSM legion tactics.

BrianDavion wrote:

I agree. once I have the codex in my hand I might move through the design a chapter rules and propose some proposed alternatives to CSM legion tactics.

I'd have to see what I was giving up to play vanilla counts as chaos. They do have a habit of recycling the same basic rule into different armies with a new name - not always as obviously and frequently as Objective Secured - but still with the same spirit. That doesn't mean you could or even should be able to draw a strictly parallel line between a Chaos Legion and a SM chapter for Tactic, units, etc.

Hasn't it been almost half a year since the chaos book? It was in March right?

I don't even want DIY for Chaos, considering the stratagems that CSM have it is better TO NOT implement DIY there, (Purge trait +Slaanesh anyone?)

Or doctrines, it's imo high time that SM get something like that. I just doubt the balance of some of these, heavily.

What pisses me off is the blatant cashgrab that changed nothing for CSM that was the dex 2.0.
No additional units for the basic legions to diversify them from one another. (like seriously, you could've easily given AL saboteur squads, WB get crusaders,etc. NOT that difficult) yet GW couldn't even be bothered to propperly fix the traits?

This will also lead to a spread of more mini marine factions. Fine, but why do the nuns finally get a update that si still swamped with marines?
Why didn't Orkz get new and improved ladz?
Why the feth could i go in a bar and drink with the sculpts of aspect warriors?
And yet GW didn't even release a bunch of eliminators as a box.....





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Hasn't it been almost half a year since the chaos book? It was in March right?

5 months but with the fact that the traits were mirrored and that each book probably has 6 months in advance, atleast, do you think it would not have been possible or decent to do so?

BrianDavion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do people you play against not screen their Knights? I realize I'm a bit doom and gloom, but getting 10 Terminators into a Knight from Deep Strike is a pipe dream.

I assumed the 40 S4 AP -1 storm bolter shots was being assumed to clear that screen

I was more thinking along the lines of slightly later in the game when people have had to commit units to taking our the rest of your army. Some good stuff is likely going to be exposed.

And if not, you can attempt to position yourself to use the termis to tri point an outlying screen to protect them from shooting for a turn

Not Online!!! wrote:
I don't even want DIY for Chaos, considering the stratagems that CSM have it is better TO NOT implement DIY there, (Purge trait +Slaanesh anyone?)

Or doctrines, it's imo high time that SM get something like that. I just doubt the balance of some of these, heavily.

What pisses me off is the blatant cashgrab that changed nothing for CSM that was the dex 2.0.
No additional units for the basic legions to diversify them from one another. (like seriously, you could've easily given AL saboteur squads, WB get crusaders,etc. NOT that difficult) yet GW couldn't even be bothered to propperly fix the traits?

This will also lead to a spread of more mini marine factions. Fine, but why do the nuns finally get a update that si still swamped with marines?
Why didn't Orkz get new and improved ladz?
Why the feth could i go in a bar and drink with the sculpts of aspect warriors?
And yet GW didn't even release a bunch of eliminators as a box.....





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Hasn't it been almost half a year since the chaos book? It was in March right?

5 months but with the fact that the traits were mirrored and that each book probably has 6 months in advance, atleast, do you think it would not have been possible or decent to do so?

claiming Chaos got no additional units in their new codex is... wrong, very very very wrong. and demanding unique units for each legion is... a bit of a strange request. outside of characters I can only think of one army that did that, and I don't think we should really count crusader squads, considering