So, are we CSM players going to get chapter specific splat books and new and updated rules for chapter tactics, extra bonus attacks and what not, or once again, is that just going to be a loyalist thing?
Nope, you heretic scum get a chance to rejoin your glorious brothers in defending the Imperium from your unrepentant associates.
Seriously though, GW seems to be focusing primarily on marines and Chaos, so I expect you’ll see some new scraps thrown your way, but I wouldn’t expect it to be as thorough as the loyalist options.
Of course, you could always just run the loyalist options and replace the <chapter> with your own and IMPERIUM, ASTARTES keywords with CHAOS and HERETIC ASTARTES keywords (and some Spikey kitbashes...)
This is where GW put themselves in a bit of a corner. It'll be vastly insulting if they get an 8.5 book so soon after the semi-pointless V2 book. So I think they'll eventually get the treatment, but I think PDF/Chapter Approved will be the holdover until then.
I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019
Galef wrote: I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019
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Except their Legion Traits are almost universally worse than Chapter Tactics and the splat books are giving the chapters considerably more choice in terms of Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Relics and even Psychic Powers.
Galef wrote: I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019
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Quiver, loyalist scum, for soon not just my Rubricae, but also my LAND RAIDERS and HELDRAKES and RHINOS shall have +6" range to ALL their psychic powers!
Galef wrote: I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019
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Honestly, all I want is:
Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.
Galef wrote: I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019
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Honestly, all I want is:
Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.
I'd be plenty happy with that.
Don't even need the stupid splatbooks.
Just fix traits and points.
Let the marines have doctrines.
Oh and either put down the poor word Bearers allready or make them finally the religious fanatics worth a gak!
It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.
Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.
xeen wrote: It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.
Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.
You have to remember though, not all of us care that much about the min/max. Yes, Black Legion might not do much for tanks and such. But it would do SOMETHING and to me, that is worth the effort.
Each mark should at the very least do something in addition to adding in a strat you can use.
xeen wrote: It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.
Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.
You have to remember though, not all of us care that much about the min/max. Yes, Black Legion might not do much for tanks and such. But it would do SOMETHING and to me, that is worth the effort.
Each mark should at the very least do something in addition to adding in a strat you can use.
I think that Marks should... 1) Unlock more god specific stratagems. 2) Keyword for god-centric specialist detachment in the vein of what Khorne Daemonkin were for Khorne. On (2), there should be a specialist detachment of some sort that rewards the mono-god build and significant enough that it balances for the loss of any rules as a consequence of being neither a pure daemon or pure CSM list.
Yes please to Legion traits applying to non-infantry (though, I would also accept a return to simply not having intra-codex factional traits at all).
I'll take extra attacks, too.
Combat doctrines seem fluffed to be a loyalist discipline thing. I'll take it or some sort of traitorous analogue to it, but this feels like another thing that the game could just do without and that whatever problem this is fixing could be fixed...better.
But for the sake of heaven above, no splatbooks, I beg of you, GW.
I'm guessing that we will see Traits redone when they get shock assault. I'm not sure they'll apply to vehicles too because that has very different results for Chaos considering they have daemon engines, but we'll probably get something else for vehicles if they don't.
I would also expect that there will be another new rule/buff to keep up with combat doctrines. Perhaps bringing back Mark bonuses. But this may not come at the same time as the above. We can hope though!
Ishagu wrote: As long as they lose lots of cool rules unless they are run as a mono faction.
Yeah. I started playing right after the 3.5 codex got replaced. I've been waiting for over a decade to play a proper, pure, specialized Legion army with proper rules support. Playing a pure God army should give a lot of buffs but also heavy restrictions. Playing pure God and mono-legion should be even more. Then using something like Word Bearers or Black Legion should remove some of the restrictions, but not give as much of a buff.
xeen wrote: It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines. Also, as pointed out by a few others, just applying the CSM legion traits to vehicles is not going to be very helpful. It really would only matter to Alpha Legion Armies (and we know the Nerf is incoming to that), Scourged/Purged would benefit, maybe ok for Iron Warriors or Night lords (both suck anyway) and maybe helpful for some close combat doctrines with the defiler, helldrake (which suckssssss), or maulerfiend. My Thousand Sons gain nothing from it and nor would Deathguard, and Word Bearers, Black Legion also get nothing out of it. Our tactics are the worst set in the game (other than Alpha Legion) and even Thousand Sons and Deathguard are not great. Adding Marks of Chaos would be cool and fluffy.
Personally I think the FAQ that will add shock assault might, and I stress might, adjust the points for basic marines, maybe a few other things (like Inferno bolters going to 0, since they are the exact same as special issue), and maybe just adding that vehicles benefit from our legion tactics. I don't think they are making any other major changes though an FAQ. Also what would really suck is if they don't do the points adjustment and wait for CA2019, which is still a few months away.
Ignoring the penalty to heavy weapons and having 18 rapid fire on all vehicles would do "nothing" for Death Guard? It would highly improve the Entropy armed PBC, it would make the Defiler able to do shooting and CC like it apparently wants to, it would make Land Raiders able to move up with full fire power and then deliver its cargo. It would be a huge bonus and make tanks much more interesting for DG.
I'd like some bonus for Marks, though. Would be even cooler if it worked in a way that it included Daemons. So, when your whole army is Nurgle get X.
I also think that doctrines should be an SM thing, to reflect their discipline. In place it would be nice if marks provided some buff in and of themselves.
Doing so would somewhat mitigate the peculiarly restrictive nature of CSM strategems, usually universal to all units in a faction, that are for us restricted to units of a particular mark (e.g. fight again).
Buffing SM around disciplines and CSM around marks of individual units would be fluffy, and would reflect that CSM are about personal glory and individual strength, while SM are about working together.
Galef wrote: I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019
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Honestly, all I want is:
Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.
I'd be plenty happy with that.
Iron Warriors (which I think you meant) isn't terrible right now, it just needs 1 additional rule added, perhaps the doubling of wounds on vehicles (would make sense). Ignoring cover is OK, and would be better if applied to vehicles too.
Galef wrote: I think if they add Shock Assault (which is confirmed), apply Legion Traits to all units and add something equivalent to Combat Doctrines, CSM should be on par with Loyalist Marines once some points drops are also applied via CA2019
-
Honestly, all I want is:
Add Shock Assault
Offer Heretic Splat Books
Rewrite the gak Word Bearers and Iron Legion chapter tactics, match Alpha Legion to Raven Guard
Chapter Tactics apply to all models.
I'd be plenty happy with that.
Iron Warriors (which I think you meant) isn't terrible right now, it just needs 1 additional rule added, perhaps the doubling of wounds on vehicles (would make sense). Ignoring cover is OK, and would be better if applied to vehicles too.
chimeara wrote: IW has a 6+ FNP strategem. Would be cool to have that on always.
You wouldn't even need another add on.
They would be the most durable csm gunline then.
And daemon engines might get worth taking for dakka support then.
Minor buff for Daemon engines. I'm good with that. I've been putting Heldrakes back into my Nurgle Soup lately. Legion traits would have had to been redone top to bottom for any of them to really apply to vehicles.
Scary Rhinos? Extra fast fight first rhinos? Reroll failed morale rhinos?
The one thing I would have liked was Inexorable Advance on my Predators. But I didnt expect it.
Greatly helps my Death Guard that is mostly Daemon Engines.
Also opens up more than just Malefic Talons as auto take on a Daemon Prince. The DG Daemon Prince of Nurgle can take a plague spewer but must also take a sword.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Minor buff for Daemon engines. I'm good with that. I've been putting Heldrakes back into my Nurgle Soup lately. Legion traits would have had to been redone top to bottom for any of them to really apply to vehicles.
Scary Rhinos? Extra fast fight first rhinos? Reroll failed morale rhinos?
The one thing I would have liked was Inexorable Advance on my Predators. But I didnt expect it.
Greatly helps my Death Guard that is mostly Daemon Engines.
Also opens up more than just Malefic Talons as auto take on a Daemon Prince. The DG Daemon Prince of Nurgle can take a plague spewer but must also take a sword.
I mean, I agree that rerolling morale on rhinos is pointless. But then it's also pointless on dreadnoughts and daemon princes and lords and sorcerers and .... I mean hell, it's pointless on basically all infantry as well, apart from -maybe- cultists (who don't get it anyway). It's a rule that all space marines get for free ON TOP OF THEIR CHAPTER TACTICS, but for word bearers it's their entire legion buff. Ridiculously unbalanced.
Basically all the chaos traits are pointless, or only a very mild upgrade (and nowhere near chapter trait levels), other than Alpha Legion. I usually end up with mixed detachments and just don't bother worrying about the legion trait buffs.
Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?
Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.
Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.
Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?
Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.
I think the keyword system is one of the main sources of rules-based nonsense. Namely units benefiting things they shouldn't benefit from (traits, stratagems, etc.).
I think the idea behind it was good, but the execution was poor. I think this game would have been far better if they'd done more work to limit what things impact what. Much more time and thought should have been given to this.
Perhaps the addition of a certain keyword such as <AUXILIARY> or something which you could use to disassociate non-Marines while keeping them legal within a detachment, etc.
Likewise, numerous strong stratagems simply shouldn't apply to certain units in certain armies - they went a bit too willy-nilly with it. This isn't just a CSM problem, but an 8th edition issue.
Well we got the absolute minimum of what we could have gotten based on what GW said. I am actually surprised that they did not apply hateful assault to Tzzagors, then have to errata it like 2 weeks later. It is really annoying that they did not fix the points for normal CSM and other units that are shared by CSM (and the non-Codex chapters for that matter). Paying different points for what is the same unit is bad rules design. Also at this point CSM now have two units that are higher cost than their imperial counterpart but worse (SM Tacticals are better than CSM with all the new rules and Cultists are a worse version of Guardsmen). Could be worse I guess, at least I don't play a Xeno book, lol.
where you expecting anything beyond the minimum? this FAQ is intended to slide in a quick rule to all space marines, not rebalance every altertnative marine faction.
SM Flamestorm got buffed to 12". Chaos flamestorm got nothing. Bad (for me anyway, as I use it.)
Chaos lose infiltrate. SM gain infiltrating dreadnoughts.
Chaos lose turn 1 deepstriking. SM gain turn 1 deepstriking.
This entire codex is just a slap in the face to any non-imperial player out there.
balanced, as all things should be.
Indeed perfectly so. So Chaos got shafted once again. Anything cool or characterful it will be stripped from the Traitor 's and given to the Loyalists. For instance did Intercessor's 1 pt auto bolt rifles need to be assault 3, like Noise Marine's 4 pt Sonic Blasters? After all they're a troop choice while Noise Marines are elites. Surely, ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts? But what has always bothered me is that a Chaos Lord is only equal to a Loyalist Captain. We have no Chapter Master equivalent. Doctrines, better stratagems, better chapter traits, better rules in general. Its always second best for chaos. But not to worry we'll get these upgrades eventually; just in time for Space Marines to leap frog ahead again. It's like poetry, it rhymes.
I guess I could just run my Emperor's Children as White Scars.
xeen wrote: It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines.
Only if they also bring back forcing mono-Marks. Doctrines have to choose which one applies, and can't go back. Being able to take a Mark of Khorne (Call is Assault Doc) on your Berzerkers, and a Mark of Nurgle (call it Tactical Doc) on your Plaguemarines, and have both running at once is so much stronger than Doctrines are now.
I think the keyword system is one of the main sources of rules-based nonsense. Namely units benefiting things they shouldn't benefit from (traits, stratagems, etc.).
I think the idea behind it was good, but the execution was poor.
The idea was brilliant. The execution was abysmal. When they brought back Guilliman, they should have worked his Primarch rule for the XIII Legion keyword then given the Ultras, and their successors the XIII Legion Keyword. Are we really going to pretend the Second Founding chapter successors wouldn't be as inspired by Guilliman trampling out his vintage where the Grapes of Wrath are stored? I get that the easier way to do it is to say the Sons of Roboute successor Chapter are just oddly painted Ultras... but they could have done so much more.
xeen wrote: It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines.
Only if they also bring back forcing mono-Marks. Doctrines have to choose which one applies, and can't go back. Being able to take a Mark of Khorne (Call is Assault Doc) on your Berzerkers, and a Mark of Nurgle (call it Tactical Doc) on your Plaguemarines, and have both running at once is so much stronger than Doctrines are now.
Well no, he did say he wanted an equivalent to doctrines. So it would be the same thing - if your whole army is Khorne, then you get X.
Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?
Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.
Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.
Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?
Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.
And how is not giving this rule out to cultists going to fix cultists?
Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?
Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.
Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.
Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?
Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.
And how is not giving this rule out to cultists going to fix cultists?
Because right now why do they even exist?
Aren't they chaffe, charge screens and objective holders?
Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?
Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.
Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.
Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?
Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.
And how is not giving this rule out to cultists going to fix cultists?
Because right now why do they even exist?
Aren't they chaffe, charge screens and objective holders?
At the point where it is better done by R&H units which are also not fielded.
Instead we see nurglings and plaguebearers.
Hu - fething- ray.
Again to reiterate, you don't fix a bad unit by making the decent Alternative unfieldable.
Why do any of you believe that CSM deserve an update when they were literally the last updated army prior to this release? It’s also an army that is performing excellently on the competitive scene without these extra buffs they’ve now received.
Maybe another faction that hasn’t had a glut of new models and new rules might deserve a bit of love now? Necrons and Tyranids immediately spring to mind. Eldar have had sweet jack in terms of model releases this entire edition. It would bore me to death but surely poor GK deserve something? CSM were the first faction to get a V2 codex and were the main focus of the Vigilus 2nd book - shouldn’t you be happy with that?
The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why do any of you believe that CSM deserve an update when they were literally the last updated army prior to this release? It’s also an army that is performing excellently on the competitive scene without these extra buffs they’ve now received.
Maybe another faction that hasn’t had a glut of new models and new rules might deserve a bit of love now? Necrons and Tyranids immediately spring to mind. Eldar have had sweet jack in terms of model releases this entire edition. It would bore me to death but surely poor GK deserve something? CSM were the first faction to get a V2 codex and were the main focus of the Vigilus 2nd book - shouldn’t you be happy with that?
The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.
And what csm perform competitively?
I'll wait.
Oh and the argument is not sui generis against specialized sm forces that got shafted aswell.
Or the fact that the eldar aspect warrior line can go drinking with me in a bar. Which until recently we could aswell with the csm.
Ohh and on the timing bit.
The V2.0 codex fixed nothing for Chaos.
We got 2 new units, disco lord and the executioner.
One of which you will only ever see as a collectors item, the other only the daemonengine that out of exception for once bloody works.
The traits still gak, cultists are out, csm are all Corsairs now if you not skip them outright in favour of daemon battalions for CP and chaff.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why do any of you believe that CSM deserve an update when they were literally the last updated army prior to this release? It’s also an army that is performing excellently on the competitive scene without these extra buffs they’ve now received.
This isn't rocket science. It's because SM and CSM have always been almost-mirrors of one another and SM just got a whole bunch of extra buffs that should apply to CSM but GW's inability to plan out their design direction has screwed them over. There's no reason why SM Chapter Tactics should apply to all units while CSM only apply to non-vehicles, and it seems as though SM get Tactical Doctrines for free while CSM get nothing of the sort. Additionally, the basic Marine is now 1 point cheaper in the SM Codex compared to the CSM Codex, which makes no sense from a balance and consistency perspective. The SM is strictly better and cheaper as well. The same currently applies to BA/DA/SW but we can assume those books will be updated at some point while CSM, having just got their update, are stuck due to GW's short-sighted approach to their game.
Oh and the argument is not sui generis against specialized sm forces that got shafted aswell.
Or the fact that the eldar aspect warrior line can go drinking with me in a bar. Which until recently we could aswell with the csm.
Ohh and on the timing bit.
The V2.0 codex fixed nothing for Chaos.
We got 2 new units, disco lord and the executioner.
One of which you will only ever see as a collectors item, the other only the daemonengine that out of exception for once bloody works.
The traits still gak, cultists are out, csm are all Corsairs now if you not skip them outright in favour of daemon battalions for CP and chaff.
I think you are being incredibly negative here and I disagree with your analysis of the new things.
There’s a few. Take a look at the top 4 for other events - there are many others.
Chaos as a faction is the second highest performing faction only to Imperium I believe. Fortunately for you, if you feel you current force is lacking in any way it’s trivial to bring in an ally to sure up that weakness. Mono faction players don’t have this luxury. Their competitiveness lives and dies by a singular codex that may not be updated until another edition drops.
This isn't rocket science. It's because SM and CSM have always been almost-mirrors of one another and SM just got a whole bunch of extra buffs that should apply to CSM but GW's inability to plan out their design direction has screwed them over.
GW are actively trying to make SM and CSM more than just ‘almost mirrors’ of one another though aren’t they. CSM have access to things that loyalists don’t get - marks being the most obvious. Not to mention the raft of units specific to CSM. This is entirely within their design direction I suspect. Ork Gretchin unit’s don’t get the equivalent of chapter traits and GW have stated this is entirely intentional.
Oh and the argument is not sui generis against specialized sm forces that got shafted aswell.
Or the fact that the eldar aspect warrior line can go drinking with me in a bar. Which until recently we could aswell with the csm.
Ohh and on the timing bit.
The V2.0 codex fixed nothing for Chaos.
We got 2 new units, disco lord and the executioner.
One of which you will only ever see as a collectors item, the other only the daemonengine that out of exception for once bloody works.
The traits still gak, cultists are out, csm are all Corsairs now if you not skip them outright in favour of daemon battalions for CP and chaff.
I think you are being incredibly negative here and I disagree with your analysis of the new things.
There’s a few. Take a look at the top 4 for other events - there are many others.
Chaos as a faction is the second highest performing faction only to Imperium I believe. Fortunately for you, if you feel you current force is lacking in any way it’s trivial to bring in an ally to sure up that weakness. Mono faction players don’t have this luxury. Their competitiveness lives and dies by a singular codex that may not be updated until another edition drops.
This isn't rocket science. It's because SM and CSM have always been almost-mirrors of one another and SM just got a whole bunch of extra buffs that should apply to CSM but GW's inability to plan out their design direction has screwed them over.
GW are actively trying to make SM and CSM more than just ‘almost mirrors’ of one another though aren’t they. CSM have access to things that loyalists don’t get - marks being the most obvious. Not to mention the raft of units specific to CSM. This is entirely within their design direction I suspect. Ork Gretchin unit’s don’t get the equivalent of chapter traits and GW have stated this is entirely intentional.
Hillarious, First off, we are talking about CSM, not the Faction. That the faction is bonkers due to soup thanks to the snowflake legions is no wonder.
Secondly, take a gander at those lists again shall you? Where's the damage done? Wheres the actual meat of the list. Either it's obliterators, or a supreme command of Thousand sons.
Lo and behold. they show up once in one detachment as MSU with the DP's . With a bunch of Obliterators, ofcourse only Slaanesh TM. --> which is in essence the usual suspects since the start of 8th sooo, What excactly did change? Rien, new models, only for the select few traits. Slowclap. The rest and the actual heavy hitters are either daemons, or the Thousand sons HQ spam.
Or a bunch of obliterators. Like excactly what we saw since the cultist nerf.
The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.
I doubt its a timing issue GW just doesn't care that much about Chaos; and it a repeating pattern. Space Marines got their new OP 7th edition codex in June of 2015, with Gladius, Chapter tactics, etc. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons didn't even get a 7th codex despite being 1-2 years older that the Space Marines 6th Ed Codex! We finally caught up with the loyalists with Legions tactics in Traitor Legions in Dec 2016, 18 months later. Only to have our brand new book invalidated 6 months later in June 2017 with the 8th. Or how about Chaos not getting a 5th Ed codex either, and having to compete for 5 years with those Matt Ward abomination 5th Ed marine codices. Yeah, I know Orks had to wait 7 years. This is a pattern with GW and I'd say Chaos players are justifiably upset at being shafted yet again. If the pattern holds it'll be 2021-2022 before we get comparable rules to Space Marines; just in time for them to leap frog us again in power level.
Tournament armies aren't real Chaos Space Marine armies. Most either break the lore or theme of the army. They either spam broken or under-costed units, or take units that wouldn't actually operate together in the fluff. But if you want to play an actual legion with the order of battle it would actually field according to it's lore you won't be placing in tournaments. So that's a poor comparison your making. Sure I could take 3 Disco lords, 90 Plaguebearers, and two Daemon Primarchs, or knights. But that's not what i'd call a "CSM army".
The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.
I doubt its a timing issue GW just doesn't care that much about Chaos; and it a repeating pattern. Space Marines got their new OP 7th edition codex in June of 2015, with Gladius, Chapter tactics, etc. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons didn't even get a 7th codex despite being 1-2 years older that the Space Marines 6th Ed Codex! We finally caught up with the loyalists with Legions tactics in Traitor Legions in Dec 2016, 18 months later. Only to have our brand new book invalidated 6 months later in June 2017 with the 8th. Or how about Chaos not getting a 5th Ed codex either, and having to compete for 5 years with those Matt Ward abomination 5th Ed marine codices. Yeah, I know Orks had to wait 7 years. This is a pattern with GW and I'd say Chaos players are justifiably upset at being shafted yet again. If the pattern holds it'll be 2021-2022 before we get comparable rules to Space Marines; just in time for them to leap frog us again in power level.
Tournament armies aren't real Chaos Space Marine armies. Most either break the lore or theme of the army. They either spam broken or under-costed units, or take units that wouldn't actually operate together in the fluff. But if you want to play an actual legion with the order of battle it would actually field according to it's lore you won't be placing in tournaments. So that's a poor comparison your making. Sure I could take 3 Disco lords, 90 Plaguebearers, and two Daemon Primarchs, or knights. But that's not what i'd call a "CSM army".
Or simply everyone and their mother is now a worshipper of the hedonistic prick , to get free shooting phases.
heck look at the termites, if it weren't for the Chainaxe option you wouldn't see them and what are they, Ofcourse slaanesh.
If you haven't access to slaanesh or the purge trait, your unit does not perform to it's price tag. Simple as that really.
Which btw automatically disqualifies how many subfactions? 2 legions and 3 renegade chapters. (and the later mostly due to lack of VoTWL anyways allready out for the count.)
Btw, guess which trait is common in these tournament lists: Alpha legion 2x, one time purge.
Not Online!!! wrote: Hillarious, First off, we are talking about CSM, not the Faction. That the faction is bonkers due to soup thanks to the snowflake legions is no wonder.
Secondly, take a gander at those lists again shall you? Where's the damage done? Wheres the actual meat of the list. Either it's obliterators, or a supreme command of Thousand sons.
Lo and behold. they show up once in one detachment as MSU with the DP's . With a bunch of Obliterators, ofcourse only Slaanesh TM. --> which is in essence the usual suspects since the start of 8th sooo, What excactly did change? Rien, new models, only for the select few traits. Slowclap. The rest and the actual heavy hitters are either daemons, or the Thousand sons HQ spam.
Or a bunch of obliterators. Like excactly what we saw since the cultist nerf.
So I've provided a few CSM lists that are performing well and your complaint is that the lists have heavy hitters/meat that you disagree with? I don't understand your complaint, to be honest. I completely disagree with your statement that they are the usual suspects since the start of 8th. The start of 8th was Malefic Lord and Horror spam. Then cultist spam. This is nothing like those lists. Cultist spam lists do still exist and perform relatively well, FYI.
Sersi wrote: I doubt its a timing issue GW just doesn't care that much about Chaos; and it a repeating pattern. Space Marines got their new OP 7th edition codex in June of 2015, with Gladius, Chapter tactics, etc. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons didn't even get a 7th codex despite being 1-2 years older that the Space Marines 6th Ed Codex! We finally caught up with the loyalists with Legions tactics in Traitor Legions in Dec 2016, 18 months later. Only to have our brand new book invalidated 6 months later in June 2017 with the 8th. Or how about Chaos not getting a 5th Ed codex either, and having to compete for 5 years with those Matt Ward abomination 5th Ed marine codices. Yeah, I know Orks had to wait 7 years. This is a pattern with GW and I'd say Chaos players are justifiably upset at being shafted yet again. If the pattern holds it'll be 2021-2022 before we get comparable rules to Space Marines; just in time for them to leap frog us again in power level.
Well this is ultimately where our disagreement lies I guess. I think it's a huuuuge push to say that CSM have been "shafted" this edition. I get your pain of prior editions (though, as an Ork player, cry me a river) but there's no point focusing on the past. You've had a ton, and I mean a metric TON of awesome new models. Any player of a Xeno faction would lose their gak if they had the same model support. CSM are one of only 2 factions to have 2 codexes this edition. CSM were the first to get a V2 codex. CSM had most of the Vigilus book 2 dedicated to them. CSM have been competitive throughout 8th and obviously, clearly, unequivocally more competitive than SM throughout the entire edition since their codex dropped virtually immediately after the SM codex. It remains to be seen if the buffs SM have received will raise them to the same level of CSM/Chaos. As of today, CSM are a far superior faction.
Sersi wrote: Tournament armies aren't real Chaos Space Marine armies. Most either break the lore or theme of the army. They either spam broken or under-costed units, or take units that wouldn't actually operate together in the fluff. But if you want to play an actual legion with the order of battle it would actually field according to it's lore you won't be placing in tournaments. So that's a poor comparison your making. Sure I could take 3 Disco lords, 90 Plaguebearers, and two Daemon Primarchs, or knights. But that's not what i'd call a "CSM army".
This is true of literally every single competitive list. You think it's in the lore for Orks to take mostly Grots and Artillery to the field? You think it's in the lore for every pure SM list to be Ultramarines with Bobby G? You reckon Eldar players dream of taking the super thematic army of 5 flyers + Wave Serpents/Grotesques? Every IG player is now Catachan or Cadia whether they like it or not. This point is moot, if you are building any army for maximum efficiency and competitiveness it is very unlikely you will focus on the theme or the lore, likewise typically the more thematic and "fluffy" you make your list the worse it becomes. I can attest to this as a proper Evil Sunz player who uses Bikes, Buggies and Koptas with no Mek Gunz and limited Grots/Boyz. It's a tough slog and I could literally make my list more effective if I sacrificed the theme.
Now I'm not suggesting that players shouldn't be able to compete with a thematic list and I wish we could, I hope that CA introduces fixes for every factions' best and worst performing units so we can see more thematic lists on the table top.
As a long term CSM player (I've been around since 5th ed) I think I've come to term with the fact that things are simply never going to get better. If you dare to complain, you'll be labled WHINER and you'll recieve a snarky comment about how CSM players never stop whining - how dare they whine, they were given a new codex (which wasn't really new it just added in new unit profiles, only one of which was of any value). But they also had the option to purchase a £30 book to gain three pages of rules, of which only one is really of any use (Red Corsairs).
People also seem fixated on the fact that Chaos recieved a bunch of new miniatues - which is great. It's unfortunate a vast majority are unsuable.
The 'new' CSM codex is, to frankly put it, terrible. While as one poster has pointed out that CSM are at the top of tournie lists, it's the case that one or two specific, completely unfluffy soup lists are dominating. Sure this it the case for every army, but this isn't a good thing what-so-ever. I'm glad to know that in order for my renegades to win, they have to bring a Knight or two, or maybe Ahriman or a trio of Daemon Princes. You want actual Chaos Space Marines? Sure, they just have to be Red Corsairs and not actually take part in the fighting - they have to exist to generate command points so you can make sure your Knight maintaints its 4++ or you can get a second shooting round for your Havo- oh sorry those are garbage as well. Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
All of the major Legion traits are either bad or mediocre with the exception of the Alpha Legion or Black Legion trait, which doesn't really feel like an Alpha Legion trait at all. I heard the Iron Warriors could do decent but it was nothing to do with their garbage 'ignore cover', more it was to do with the 'Daemon Prince and fearless Cultists'.
People seem to be celebrating the idea that you can now get something like 5 attacks per Bezerker if you're playing World Eaters, but since 40k at this point vastly favours ranged combat over close combat, it doesn't matter because you're never going to reach combat. Got help you if you're playing against an actual dedicated gunline. Word Bearers are an embarrasingly bad army at this stage - the only army in the game to my knowledge who have a trait that can actually hurt them, and one that is invalidated by the Black Legion trait. Night Lords are also kind of garbage because morale bombs work in the void of mathhammer but when you actually play it in game you'll find that it's easier to simply kill the enemy rather than wait for morale to do the job.
You also have bizarre rules for the other niche groups, The Purge, The Flawless Host, etc. Instead of just making these generic traits for renegades with no God tied to them, they instead force you to pick specifc Gods. Why on earth would anyone want to do close-combat Slaanesh when the best Slaanesh stratagem is about ranged combat? Wouldn't it be better if The Flawless Host trait could represent martial skill focussed followers of Khorne?
But don't worry, if your traits aren't garbage your artefact just might be! Here's an ultra-specific weapon that works on almost no occasion but when it does work it might just do a bit better than it's generic variant! Props to the artefact weapon if it's a ranged weapon for an army focussed on Close Combat, or the classic '+1 to smite'.
Needless to say all these problems are problems not just of Chaos but all armies. Personally I'm beginning to feel that 8th edition is something of a major dissapointment - it's better than 7th, but that's like saying HIV is better than full blown AIDs.
blood reaper wrote: Needless to say all these problems are problems not just of Chaos but all armies. Personally I'm beginning to feel that 8th edition is something of a major disappointment - it's better than 7th, but that's like saying HIV is better than full blown AIDs.
blood reaper wrote: Needless to say all these problems are problems not just of Chaos but all armies. Personally I'm beginning to feel that 8th edition is something of a major disappointment - it's better than 7th, but that's like saying HIV is better than full blown AIDs.
Couldn't. Agree. More.
What really brought the kettle to boil over was the obvious lack of any and all interaction between the rules team and coordination.
Leading to the effect that the csm codex 2.0'looks like a cheap cashgrab, whilest the sm one seems to atleast be put together competently.
So I've provided a few CSM lists that are performing well and your complaint is that the lists have heavy hitters/meat that you disagree with? I don't understand your complaint, to be honest. I completely disagree with your statement that they are the usual suspects since the start of 8th. The start of 8th was Malefic Lord and Horror spam. Then cultist spam. This is nothing like those lists. Cultist spam lists do still exist and perform relatively well, FYI.
Those are mostly soup lists without actually using really much of anything from actual Chaos Space Marines and mostly take from Daemons and Thousand Sons HQ's. How exactly is that hard to understand?
blood reaper wrote: Needless to say all these problems are problems not just of Chaos but all armies. Personally I'm beginning to feel that 8th edition is something of a major disappointment - it's better than 7th, but that's like saying HIV is better than full blown AIDs.
Couldn't. Agree. More.
I may come to look at 8th that way, someday. But the biggest difference between 6/7th and 8th - you knew exactly how bad those editions were at all times.
Every game, every turn, every phase, every unit, every roll, there was something to remind you how uninspired and bloated the rules are.
With 8th, that never happens, because half of each army dies each turn. There's not enough there to consider.
Oh and the argument is not sui generis against specialized sm forces that got shafted aswell.
Or the fact that the eldar aspect warrior line can go drinking with me in a bar. Which until recently we could aswell with the csm.
Ohh and on the timing bit.
The V2.0 codex fixed nothing for Chaos.
We got 2 new units, disco lord and the executioner.
One of which you will only ever see as a collectors item, the other only the daemonengine that out of exception for once bloody works.
The traits still gak, cultists are out, csm are all Corsairs now if you not skip them outright in favour of daemon battalions for CP and chaff.
I think you are being incredibly negative here and I disagree with your analysis of the new things.
There’s a few. Take a look at the top 4 for other events - there are many others.
Chaos as a faction is the second highest performing faction only to Imperium I believe. Fortunately for you, if you feel you current force is lacking in any way it’s trivial to bring in an ally to sure up that weakness. Mono faction players don’t have this luxury. Their competitiveness lives and dies by a singular codex that may not be updated until another edition drops.
This isn't rocket science. It's because SM and CSM have always been almost-mirrors of one another and SM just got a whole bunch of extra buffs that should apply to CSM but GW's inability to plan out their design direction has screwed them over.
GW are actively trying to make SM and CSM more than just ‘almost mirrors’ of one another though aren’t they. CSM have access to things that loyalists don’t get - marks being the most obvious. Not to mention the raft of units specific to CSM. This is entirely within their design direction I suspect. Ork Gretchin unit’s don’t get the equivalent of chapter traits and GW have stated this is entirely intentional.
They're not making them different enough though as they're trying to make the codex a catch all for Legions and Renegades.
Its unfortunate that its all Flawless Host, Alpha Legion and then soup with wider chaos, but thats the meta I guess. No one complains that CWE are always Alaitoc. (Well I do, but so it goes.)
I just feel a bit irked that Word Bearers have the worst chapter tactic in the game, and GW have blanked them. Its very, very hard to think of any ability they could give which wouldn't be a buff.
blood reaper wrote: Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?
blood reaper wrote: Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?
Nothing, unless you play with people that "enforce" base size.
blood reaper wrote: Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?
Nothing, unless you play with people that "enforce" base size.
You need to use the most up to date version though.
Which is the T5 5 man squad.
blood reaper wrote: Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?
Nothing, unless you play with people that "enforce" base size.
You need to use the most up to date version though.
Which is the T5 5 man squad.
blood reaper wrote: Needless to say all these problems are problems not just of Chaos but all armies. Personally I'm beginning to feel that 8th edition is something of a major disappointment - it's better than 7th, but that's like saying HIV is better than full blown AIDs.
Couldn't. Agree. More.
I may come to look at 8th that way, someday. But the biggest difference between 6/7th and 8th - you knew exactly how bad those editions were at all times.
Every game, every turn, every phase, every unit, every roll, there was something to remind you how uninspired and bloated the rules are.
With 8th, that never happens, because half of each army dies each turn. There's not enough there to consider.
My favourite part of 40k is losing dozens of models every turn with no capacity to respond and then being told in order to win I just have to bring that third knight at a 1,500 point game.
Well this is ultimately where our disagreement lies I guess. I think it's a huuuuge push to say that CSM have been "shafted" this edition. I get your pain of prior editions (though, as an Ork player, cry me a river) but there's no point focusing on the past. You've had a ton, and I mean a metric TON of awesome new models. Any player of a Xeno faction would lose their gak if they had the same model support. CSM are one of only 2 factions to have 2 codexes this edition. CSM were the first to get a V2 codex. CSM had most of the Vigilus book 2 dedicated to them. CSM have been competitive throughout 8th and obviously, clearly, unequivocally more competitive than SM throughout the entire edition since their codex dropped virtually immediately after the SM codex. It remains to be seen if the buffs SM have received will raise them to the same level of CSM/Chaos. As of today, CSM are a far superior faction.
Model support isn't rules support. We got a few nice models with mostly garbage rules, and while its a personal opinion several of those kits were trash. CSM 2.0 is not a new codex it just consolidated rules that were scattered across in several books. It's not remotely on par with the re-work C:SM got. Vigilus book 1 was dedicated to primarily to who? Yep, C:SM. I don't get why you keep bringing up tournaments that virtually no one actually competes in. Probably more than 90% of players don't compete in said tournament, anyway. What CSM players want is parity. Sure C:SM and CSM are separate factions but they are all Astartes; and no matter how much some elements may differ there are and should still be allot commonality. For instance the new C:SM stratagem "trans-human physiology", can you honestly argue that CSM should have that as well? How abaout take multiple and more numerous relics for less CP and taking multiple Warlord traits. Does this strike you as fair?
An Actual Englishman wrote: This is true of literally every single competitive list. You think it's in the lore for Orks to take mostly Grots and Artillery to the field? You think it's in the lore for every pure SM list to be Ultramarines with Bobby G? You reckon Eldar players dream of taking the super thematic army of 5 flyers + Wave Serpents/Grotesques? Every IG player is now Catachan or Cadia whether they like it or not. This point is moot, if you are building any army for maximum efficiency and competitiveness it is very unlikely you will focus on the theme or the lore, likewise typically the more thematic and "fluffy" you make your list the worse it becomes. I can attest to this as a proper Evil Sunz player who uses Bikes, Buggies and Koptas with no Mek Gunz and limited Grots/Boyz. It's a tough slog and I could literally make my list more effective if I sacrificed the theme. Now I'm not suggesting that players shouldn't be able to compete with a thematic list and I wish we could, I hope that CA introduces fixes for every factions' best and worst performing units so we can see more thematic lists on the table top.
No, I'm right there with you I play Emperor's Children and I don't break theme either. But your making my point for me. The new C:SM books are far stronger that CSM if you play mono-faction and stay within your own codex. In fact it rewards them for not playing a Soup list. You'd be hard pressed to find much in the CSM codex that's superior to Ultramarines or White Scars if you select units solely from in the codex.
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blood reaper wrote: As a long term CSM player (I've been around since 5th ed) I think I've come to term with the fact that things are simply never going to get better. If you dare to complain, you'll be labled WHINER and you'll recieve a snarky comment about how CSM players never stop whining - how dare they whine, they were given a new codex (which wasn't really new it just added in new unit profiles, only one of which was of any value). But they also had the option to purchase a £30 book to gain three pages of rules, of which only one is really of any use (Red Corsairs).
People also seem fixated on the fact that Chaos recieved a bunch of new miniatues - which is great. It's unfortunate a vast majority are unsuable.
The 'new' CSM codex is, to frankly put it, terrible. While as one poster has pointed out that CSM are at the top of tournie lists, it's the case that one or two specific, completely unfluffy soup lists are dominating. Sure this it the case for every army, but this isn't a good thing what-so-ever. I'm glad to know that in order for my renegades to win, they have to bring a Knight or two, or maybe Ahriman or a trio of Daemon Princes. You want actual Chaos Space Marines? Sure, they just have to be Red Corsairs and not actually take part in the fighting - they have to exist to generate command points so you can make sure your Knight maintaints its 4++ or you can get a second shooting round for your Havo- oh sorry those are garbage as well. Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
All of the major Legion traits are either bad or mediocre with the exception of the Alpha Legion or Black Legion trait, which doesn't really feel like an Alpha Legion trait at all. I heard the Iron Warriors could do decent but it was nothing to do with their garbage 'ignore cover', more it was to do with the 'Daemon Prince and fearless Cultists'.
People seem to be celebrating the idea that you can now get something like 5 attacks per Bezerker if you're playing World Eaters, but since 40k at this point vastly favours ranged combat over close combat, it doesn't matter because you're never going to reach combat. Got help you if you're playing against an actual dedicated gunline. Word Bearers are an embarrasingly bad army at this stage - the only army in the game to my knowledge who have a trait that can actually hurt them, and one that is invalidated by the Black Legion trait. Night Lords are also kind of garbage because morale bombs work in the void of mathhammer but when you actually play it in game you'll find that it's easier to simply kill the enemy rather than wait for morale to do the job.
You also have bizarre rules for the other niche groups, The Purge, The Flawless Host, etc. Instead of just making these generic traits for renegades with no God tied to them, they instead force you to pick specifc Gods. Why on earth would anyone want to do close-combat Slaanesh when the best Slaanesh stratagem is about ranged combat? Wouldn't it be better if The Flawless Host trait could represent martial skill focussed followers of Khorne?
But don't worry, if your traits aren't garbage your artefact just might be! Here's an ultra-specific weapon that works on almost no occasion but when it does work it might just do a bit better than it's generic variant! Props to the artefact weapon if it's a ranged weapon for an army focussed on Close Combat, or the classic '+1 to smite'.
Needless to say all these problems are problems not just of Chaos but all armies. Personally I'm beginning to feel that 8th edition is something of a major dissapointment - it's better than 7th, but that's like saying HIV is better than full blown AIDs.
Accurate, and well stated. Allow me to summarize... Chaos was once again was shafted by GW's love of all things loyalist marines.
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Tyel wrote: I don't think CSM are remotely in a bad place.
Its unfortunate that its all Flawless Host, Alpha Legion and then soup with wider chaos, but thats the meta I guess. No one complains that CWE are always Alaitoc. (Well I do, but so it goes.)
I just feel a bit irked that Word Bearers have the worst chapter tactic in the game, and GW have blanked them. Its very, very hard to think of any ability they could give which wouldn't be a buff.
How, is Chaos not in a bad place? You just basically admitted that only Flawless Host, Alpha Legion, or Chaos Soup were viable. That's just two out of the seven legions and five renegades chapters. Ten of which as you just said are bad. Compare that to what C:SM are getting none of those factions seem bad, and judging by the two supplements we've seen they're all getting a major boost.
Sersi wrote: How, is Chaos not in a bad place? You just basically admitted that only Flawless Host, Alpha Legion, or Chaos Soup were viable. That's just two out of the seven legions and five renegades chapters. Ten of which as you just said are bad. Compare that to what C:SM are getting none of those factions seem bad, and judging by the two supplements we've seen they're all getting a major boost.
Because turning up on top tables and winning games is enough.
The bulk of chapter tactics are not top tier. Almost every book I can think of has 1, sometimes 2 that are "good" and 90% of competitive lists involving that faction are from that chapter.
You may think all the SM chapters are not bad - and yes, they are clearly superior to Word Bearers. But give it a couple of months, and it will be clear that one or two are superior to all others.
Sersi wrote: Model support isn't rules support. We got a few nice models with mostly garbage rules, and while its a personal opinion several of those kits were trash. CSM 2.0 is not a new codex it just consolidated rules that were scattered across in several books. It's not remotely on par with the re-work C:SM got. Vigilus book 1 was dedicated to primarily to who? Yep, C:SM. I don't get why you keep bringing up tournaments that virtually no one actually competes in. Probably more than 90% of players don't compete in said tournament, anyway. What CSM players want is parity. Sure C:SM and CSM are separate factions but they are all Astartes; and no matter how much some elements may differ there are and should still be allot commonality. For instance the new C:SM stratagem "trans-human physiology", can you honestly argue that CSM should have that as well? How abaout take multiple and more numerous relics for less CP and taking multiple Warlord traits. Does this strike you as fair?
I keep bringing up tournament results because the primary complaint here seems to be (not necessarily by you personally by the way) that CSM have been "shafted" by GW who have allegedly given SM "much better rules yet again". My argument is twofold - one - that remains to be seen and two - CSM are performing well as is. Vigilus book 1 was dedicated to no particular faction, it was split between 6 factions - SM, Eldar, IG, Orks, GSC and Ad Mech who all received specialist detachments. CSM had rules for a named lord in there if i recall. No, I don't think for a moment that the split in GW's focus is fair or even. I would argue, pretty easily I think, that Imperium/SM and Chaos/CSM have had consistently more support than any other faction by far. This is not fair to me as a Xenos player. It is not fair to other Xenos players. CSM literally had the last major update just before this one. CSM have had a few datasheet updates to bring some of the SM rules to their datasheets with this update. That is enough, it's time for another faction to be thrown a bone now, right?
Sersi wrote: No, I'm right there with you I play Emperor's Children and I don't break theme either. But your making my point for me. The new C:SM books are far stronger that CSM if you play mono-faction and stay within your own codex. In fact it rewards them for not playing a Soup list. You'd be hard pressed to find much in the CSM codex that's superior to Ultramarines or White Scars if you select units solely from in the codex.
I think this remains to be seen but if it turns out that you're correct and SM have multiple, fluffy and competitive army lists then I think that will be a win for GW. They should try and make that the aim for every faction, in my opinion (and yours I think?). It would be bogus if they didn't bother trying to do this for other factions.
Sersi wrote: Accurate, and well stated. Allow me to summarize... Chaos was once again was shafted by GW's love of all things loyalist marines.
If you believe Chaos/CSM to have been shafted, how do you think players of CWE, DE, Nids, Necrons, Orks, IG and GK feel? GW's love for all things loyalist marines is nothing new. I reckon they've shown a lot of love to Chaos this edition too however. Death Guard, Nurgle Daemons, CSM and Slaanesh Daemons have all had releases so big that one of these releases individually is far larger than the entirety of what my faction received. And from what my faction did receive literally every one of the new models is competitively poor, one laughably so - at least some of your new models are usable.
It hardly matters that since codex marine tactics are superior to others when even the bottom of the loyalists are strict upgrades over the best chaos has to offer.
Chaos current has entire unplayable codcies. Take TS, the only thing they have that's worth taking is ahriman and princes, and loyalist marines just one upped by having even more spells and better psyker tactics in top of already having far superior stratagems.
Heck, even some of the "special toys" choas has are actually one upped by loyalists. Intercessors with the assault guns basically are superior noise boys for example
Well this is ultimately where our disagreement lies I guess. I think it's a huuuuge push to say that CSM have been "shafted" this edition. I get your pain of prior editions (though, as an Ork player, cry me a river) but there's no point focusing on the past. You've had a ton, and I mean a metric TON of awesome new models. Any player of a Xeno faction would lose their gak if they had the same model support. CSM are one of only 2 factions to have 2 codexes this edition. CSM were the first to get a V2 codex. CSM had most of the Vigilus book 2 dedicated to them. CSM have been competitive throughout 8th and obviously, clearly, unequivocally more competitive than SM throughout the entire edition since their codex dropped virtually immediately after the SM codex. It remains to be seen if the buffs SM have received will raise them to the same level of CSM/Chaos. As of today, CSM are a far superior faction.
Model support isn't rules support. We got a few nice models with mostly garbage rules, and while its a personal opinion several of those kits were trash. CSM 2.0 is not a new codex it just consolidated rules that were scattered across in several books. It's not remotely on par with the re-work C:SM got. Vigilus book 1 was dedicated to primarily to who? Yep, C:SM. I don't get why you keep bringing up tournaments that virtually no one actually competes in. Probably more than 90% of players don't compete in said tournament, anyway. What CSM players want is parity. Sure C:SM and CSM are separate factions but they are all Astartes; and no matter how much some elements may differ there are and should still be allot commonality. For instance the new C:SM stratagem "trans-human physiology", can you honestly argue that CSM should have that as well? How abaout take multiple and more numerous relics for less CP and taking multiple Warlord traits. Does this strike you as fair?
An Actual Englishman wrote: This is true of literally every single competitive list. You think it's in the lore for Orks to take mostly Grots and Artillery to the field? You think it's in the lore for every pure SM list to be Ultramarines with Bobby G? You reckon Eldar players dream of taking the super thematic army of 5 flyers + Wave Serpents/Grotesques? Every IG player is now Catachan or Cadia whether they like it or not. This point is moot, if you are building any army for maximum efficiency and competitiveness it is very unlikely you will focus on the theme or the lore, likewise typically the more thematic and "fluffy" you make your list the worse it becomes. I can attest to this as a proper Evil Sunz player who uses Bikes, Buggies and Koptas with no Mek Gunz and limited Grots/Boyz. It's a tough slog and I could literally make my list more effective if I sacrificed the theme. Now I'm not suggesting that players shouldn't be able to compete with a thematic list and I wish we could, I hope that CA introduces fixes for every factions' best and worst performing units so we can see more thematic lists on the table top.
No, I'm right there with you I play Emperor's Children and I don't break theme either. But your making my point for me. The new C:SM books are far stronger that CSM if you play mono-faction and stay within your own codex. In fact it rewards them for not playing a Soup list. You'd be hard pressed to find much in the CSM codex that's superior to Ultramarines or White Scars if you select units solely from in the codex.
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blood reaper wrote: As a long term CSM player (I've been around since 5th ed) I think I've come to term with the fact that things are simply never going to get better. If you dare to complain, you'll be labled WHINER and you'll recieve a snarky comment about how CSM players never stop whining - how dare they whine, they were given a new codex (which wasn't really new it just added in new unit profiles, only one of which was of any value). But they also had the option to purchase a £30 book to gain three pages of rules, of which only one is really of any use (Red Corsairs).
People also seem fixated on the fact that Chaos recieved a bunch of new miniatues - which is great. It's unfortunate a vast majority are unsuable.
The 'new' CSM codex is, to frankly put it, terrible. While as one poster has pointed out that CSM are at the top of tournie lists, it's the case that one or two specific, completely unfluffy soup lists are dominating. Sure this it the case for every army, but this isn't a good thing what-so-ever. I'm glad to know that in order for my renegades to win, they have to bring a Knight or two, or maybe Ahriman or a trio of Daemon Princes. You want actual Chaos Space Marines? Sure, they just have to be Red Corsairs and not actually take part in the fighting - they have to exist to generate command points so you can make sure your Knight maintaints its 4++ or you can get a second shooting round for your Havo- oh sorry those are garbage as well. Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
All of the major Legion traits are either bad or mediocre with the exception of the Alpha Legion or Black Legion trait, which doesn't really feel like an Alpha Legion trait at all. I heard the Iron Warriors could do decent but it was nothing to do with their garbage 'ignore cover', more it was to do with the 'Daemon Prince and fearless Cultists'.
People seem to be celebrating the idea that you can now get something like 5 attacks per Bezerker if you're playing World Eaters, but since 40k at this point vastly favours ranged combat over close combat, it doesn't matter because you're never going to reach combat. Got help you if you're playing against an actual dedicated gunline. Word Bearers are an embarrasingly bad army at this stage - the only army in the game to my knowledge who have a trait that can actually hurt them, and one that is invalidated by the Black Legion trait. Night Lords are also kind of garbage because morale bombs work in the void of mathhammer but when you actually play it in game you'll find that it's easier to simply kill the enemy rather than wait for morale to do the job.
You also have bizarre rules for the other niche groups, The Purge, The Flawless Host, etc. Instead of just making these generic traits for renegades with no God tied to them, they instead force you to pick specifc Gods. Why on earth would anyone want to do close-combat Slaanesh when the best Slaanesh stratagem is about ranged combat? Wouldn't it be better if The Flawless Host trait could represent martial skill focussed followers of Khorne?
But don't worry, if your traits aren't garbage your artefact just might be! Here's an ultra-specific weapon that works on almost no occasion but when it does work it might just do a bit better than it's generic variant! Props to the artefact weapon if it's a ranged weapon for an army focussed on Close Combat, or the classic '+1 to smite'.
Needless to say all these problems are problems not just of Chaos but all armies. Personally I'm beginning to feel that 8th edition is something of a major dissapointment - it's better than 7th, but that's like saying HIV is better than full blown AIDs.
Accurate, and well stated. Allow me to summarize... Chaos was once again was shafted by GW's love of all things loyalist marines.
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Tyel wrote: I don't think CSM are remotely in a bad place.
Its unfortunate that its all Flawless Host, Alpha Legion and then soup with wider chaos, but thats the meta I guess. No one complains that CWE are always Alaitoc. (Well I do, but so it goes.)
I just feel a bit irked that Word Bearers have the worst chapter tactic in the game, and GW have blanked them. Its very, very hard to think of any ability they could give which wouldn't be a buff.
How, is Chaos not in a bad place? You just basically admitted that only Flawless Host, Alpha Legion, or Chaos Soup were viable. That's just two out of the seven legions and five renegades chapters. Ten of which as you just said are bad. Compare that to what C:SM are getting none of those factions seem bad, and judging by the two supplements we've seen they're all getting a major boost.
Your comment is contradictory because you are arguing that GW love loyalist marines and that model support without rule support is not true support but.... SM units/primaris have had gakky rule for a long long time now. There are primaris units that are totally unusable - Reaver anyone ? - and many are just meh (most HQ are bad and just gives reroll bubbles).
I play both CSM and DA so I kinda understand your points but I don't think SM are the cause of CSM status. It is GW inability to balance out their game, from one codex to another, but also in each codexes, that leads to stupid list building.
You may think all the SM chapters are not bad - and yes, they are clearly superior to Word Bearers. But give it a couple of months, and it will be clear that one or two are superior to all others.
That's because, when presented with a list of options in a competitive environment, there is ALWAYS one or two that are the strongest option. This is the same for any game, because it's basically impossible for every combination of rules to be perfectly and identically balanced.
A good recent example of this is Smash Bros. In the old Melee game, there were one or two characters that were insanely overpowered compared to the rest of the roster (They are the "Alpha Legion", vs the rest being Word Bearers). And so they'd always be played. In the current Ultimate game though, while there are still 2 or 3 "top tier" characters (the Iron Hands, or Ultramarines), the balance is so much closer that even if you picked one of the 'worst' options (say... raven guard), you'd still have a good chance of being competitive.
The Space Marine legions are now all pretty close. One or two will end up at the top of the pile, but they're all valid options. Chaos... You have maybe 3 options, at best, and the rest are just garbage or an actual handicap.
So yeh, your point here is completely invalid. You're saying it like it's a bad thing, but it's how things always shake out in a competitive environment. The point should be -how close- the best and the worst are, and the space marine codex seems to be doing well with that. The chaos codex isn't.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone bringing up Tournament results for anything not Eldar needs to be reminded of the ghastly Tyranids 6th edition codex performing well.
Oooooffffffff.
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The bottom line is, trying to get some of these twits to comprehend why you're pissed, much less agree with it, is futile. You will be buried with whataboutisms until the end of days.
Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
It's like you completely dismissed my point about the 6th edition Tyranid codex
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
All kinds of wrong in this, but I'll focus on the one main thing.
"it has the second most up to date codex"
Nope. The codex may have been reprinted recently, but it was written/released in August 2017. It's actually the oldest codex out of all of them, only matched by the Grey Knights.
All they did was include some (not even all) Chapter Approved changes to the existing codex. Nothing else was updated or changed. It's a 2017 codex.
So it's currently the oldest codex out by several months, and when the Xenos get their codex updates this year/next year, it will be the oldest codex by over 2 years.
UNLESS the xenos also only get copy/paste codex releases. Then they'll all be old codices, and only Space Marines will have a 'new' codex. This is very possible, but I suspect at least Elder and Tyranids will get a release more in line with space marines than the chaos one. Orks too probably.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Niiru wrote: All kinds of wrong in this, but I'll focus on the one main thing.
"it has the second most up to date codex"
Nope. The codex may have been reprinted recently, but it was written/released in August 2017. It's actually the oldest codex out of all of them, only matched by the Grey Knights.
All they did was include some (not even all) Chapter Approved changes to the existing codex. Nothing else was updated or changed. It's a 2017 codex.
So it's currently the oldest codex out by several months, and when the Xenos get their codex updates this year/next year, it will be the oldest codex by over 2 years.
UNLESS the xenos also only get copy/paste codex releases. Then they'll all be old codices, and only Space Marines will have a 'new' codex. This is very possible, but I suspect at least Elder and Tyranids will get a release more in line with space marines than the chaos one. Orks too probably.
The last CSM codex was released this year. It was updated with points changes, datasheet changes and datasheets for entirely new units. That's more than any other faction has had. CA will not change the datasheets in my codex that desperately need updating and if you think other factions are guaranteed anything at all let alone anything like the SM release I respectfully disagree. Finally, you're ignoring the second Vigilus book that gave your faction a ton of new stratagems and relics. Much more so than Vigilus book 1 did for any faction.
I'd love to hear what else you believe to be wrong, but I'm not in here for a fight.
Let me make myself clear - I understand and to a degree sympathise with the complaints of you CSM players. I just believe that other factions have more right to these feelings and I think it's pretty entitled to moan for more updates when there are factions in a far worse position (both in terms of rules and model support) and you've recently been the beneficiary of a substantial update.
You'll no doubt get another significant update before Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids or Tau get anything. I suspect a proper R&H release is on the way which will be yet another element to add to the Chaos soup and will provide yet another boost to the power of the overall faction.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
I can understand Noise Marines, given they're a Finecast upgrade set designed for the old plastic CSM set.
And if we're talking Noise Marines, then screaming is kinda appropriate, don't you think?
I think the new FAQ will address some of the issues. I expect we will get legion traits for all things possibly even updated legion traits. Mainly I just don't see them nerfing the Raven Guard trait and not changing it for the rest of the armies that have that. I could be very wrong though and am just holding out. Wouldn't be the first nor last time I was disappointing with GW.
I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
I think that the emphasis on the competitive scene is, in some ways, unhelpful here. I think that the major issue is that everyone has considerable imaginative investments in their army. We all have ideas of the amazing things our super-human warriors/bugs/fishmen can do, and would like some gameplay representation of that, so that we can see it on the tabletop.
The disappointing thing, is that a lot of the creativity required to represent that is directed towards specific armies. The issue here is not that certain armies get it, but that this effort seems almost to be aggressively absent from other armies. So we know that GW is capable of writing amazing rules in the new C:SM, and yet this effort was completely absent from C:CSM v.2.
Consider, for example, Night Lords. They are supposed to be a truly terrifying force, utilising the most brutal and extreme psychological warfare to break their enemies. And what is the representation of this on the battlefield vs a generic (read: no bonus rules) CSM army? -1 to morale tests; a rule that almost never comes into play, what with MSU, morale mitigation, and the superior tactic of just wiping squads out.
Now, this issue then has knock on effects for competitive, as one reflects imaginative options in gameplay via adding rules. It is rules that differentiates one army from another, particularly within a force that draws on the same units. The more rules something has (particularly if they all take the form of 'perks', rather than limitations, in which the 3.5ed CSM codex), the greater the chance that a given combination will be good. And if everything has 3 rules (like the new C:SM), rather than just 1 (like C:CSM), then the chance that one or two rules is a dud is mitigated by the potential strength of the other.
For example here, the crapitude of the Ward Bearer trait would be mitigated if it had another part to it that was great (like multiple [or shifting] marks, or something), or some other generic CSM rule that worked better with their play style.
This, then, of course, would increase the chance of diversity of competitive options in the codex. Sure, one or two options would always be best, but the chance of a plethora of near-competitive options would increase.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
While EC and WE codcies will be awesome, and they definitely need new models, how about we fix the stupid unplayable codices before we introduce new ones?
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
Which is exactly what Xenos players are saying about Chaos and Imperium releases and updates to their own line/codex.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
yep, just basically everyone else before them, not just WE and EC. Altough that would be the bare minimum imo.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
Which is exactly what Xenos players are saying about Chaos and Imperium releases and updates to their own line/codex.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update. (except maybe GSC but that has more to do with their reentry into 40k with an all new line).
I mean Ghazkull, aspect warriors, phoenix lords, etc have been basically the same age as the now old CSM set, abbadon. The only army that is worse off atm is Sisters and they get a full upodate. And the less we talk about the ork specialists the better.
I'm expecting sometime in 2020 a massive eldar release. nothing to back this up but if CSMs represent a trend of GW updating aging armies eldar seem the logical next step
BrianDavion wrote: I'm expecting sometime in 2020 a massive eldar release. nothing to back this up but if CSMs represent a trend of GW updating aging armies eldar seem the logical next step
I hope so.
Whilest especially the eldar sculpts were good for their time, the failcast and pewter is agrivating.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
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Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
yep, just basically everyone else before them, not just WE and EC. Altough that would be the bare minimum imo.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
Which is exactly what Xenos players are saying about Chaos and Imperium releases and updates to their own line/codex.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update. (except maybe GSC but that has more to do with their reentry into 40k with an all new line).
I mean Ghazkull, aspect warriors, phoenix lords, etc have been basically the same age as the now old CSM set, abbadon. The only army that is worse off atm is Sisters and they get a full upodate. And the less we talk about the ork specialists the better.
Well the inconsistencies with the Legions are obnoxious and that needs to change.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Your comment is contradictory because you are arguing that GW love loyalist marines and that model support without rule support is not true support but.... SM units/primaris have had gakky rule for a long long time now. There are primaris units that are totally unusable - Reaver anyone ? - and many are just meh (most HQ are bad and just gives reroll bubbles).
I play both CSM and DA so I kinda understand your points but I don't think SM are the cause of CSM status. It is GW inability to balance out their game, from one codex to another, but also in each codexes, that leads to stupid list building.
Since, you play Chaos you know we've had three editions where we received no codex support at all. Primaris are brand new, Chaos has had units that have been bad through multiple editions. Mutilators anyone? I see no contradiction. But I do agree that GW's inability to balance codices in general is the real problem.
Sersi wrote: How, is Chaos not in a bad place? You just basically admitted that only Flawless Host, Alpha Legion, or Chaos Soup were viable. That's just two out of the seven legions and five renegades chapters. Ten of which as you just said are bad. Compare that to what C:SM are getting none of those factions seem bad, and judging by the two supplements we've seen they're all getting a major boost.
Because turning up on top tables and winning games is enough.
The bulk of chapter tactics are not top tier. Almost every book I can think of has 1, sometimes 2 that are "good" and 90% of competitive lists involving that faction are from that chapter.
You may think all the SM chapters are not bad - and yes, they are clearly superior to Word Bearers. But give it a couple of months, and it will be clear that one or two are superior to all others.
Most player couldn't careless about tournaments, and no its not good enough the place with some list abomination. You misunderstood my point. I never said all the new C:SM tactics are good. I said they are all superior to what CSM currently have. Which is why many CSM players are dissatisfied.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
As it happens, Space Wolves have the two oldest sculpts in the range, possibly the three oldest - Ragnar and the original Njal Stormcaller are older than anything in the Eldar line (though I think there was a period when Njal went OOP), with the Rune Priest in Terminator Armour being up there too. Off the top of my head, I think Ragnar and OG Njal are from 1992?
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
How many novels have focused on the Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoons. I don't mean a novel where the Ork in question happened to be one or the other, I mean a novel focused in partiuclar around one of the subfactions as important to the identity of the characters in it? Even in the Beast Arises which was a pretty damn Ork focused story we didn't see much of that. Meanwhile the various Legions have been greatly fleshed out, largely thanks to the Horus Heresy books true, but even then the world eaters have featured prominatly in about a half dozen. and they're given less ink then a lot of chapters. fact is, most of the time when Orks show up in stories etc, their affliation isn't even mentioned, it's, beyond their quirks, not considered very relevant
How many novels have focused on the Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoons. I don't mean a novel where the Ork in question happened to be one or the other, I mean a novel focused in partiuclar around one of the subfactions as important to the identity of the characters in it? Even in the Beast Arises which was a pretty damn Ork focused story we didn't see much of that. Meanwhile the various Legions have been greatly fleshed out, largely thanks to the Horus Heresy books true, but even then the world eaters have featured prominatly in about a half dozen. and they're given less ink then a lot of chapters. fact is, most of the time when Orks show up in stories etc, their affliation isn't even mentioned, it's, beyond their quirks, not considered very relevant
Have you read the beast arises series? It effectively explains how the different Klans were formed and why. There's a significant amount of detail on this. The writers of that particular fiction chose to have Orks as menacing and frightening foes so there wasn't much characterisation to be honest (as we'd expect, the big, alien bad isn't as scary if we humanise them) but I distinctly remember a few conversations between the Orks and humans in that story that characterised the Orks very well. The diplomats in particular spring to mind.
There is also the recent speed freaks audio book set.
Regardless of your opinion on the matter there is obviously a market for this because players of other factions are crying out for it. It is relevant to those players, myself included, regardless of whether you believe it to be relevant or not.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
Emphasis on used to, they're a discontinued range with no rules. i.e. nothing to mourn in 8th is the harsh reality.
I'm talking about a unit/subfaction with consistent rules and over the counter minis who get price hikes to keep them in line with modern plastics despite being older than some of the gamers in the hobby. Of course if cyboars etc were still available with active rules then you'd be correct and they'd need a face lift alongside all the other old 2nd/3rd ed kits.
It's not bias, it's simply updating the old stuff first and saying because chaos marines got some other kits they deserve to keep using 20 year old minis isn't a good enough reason. Again I'm happy to see other factions with ancient kits get some love first (Orks only have the deffkopta/gazzy from memory?), but don't pretend chaos don't need anything.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
Emphasis on used to, they're a discontinued range with no rules. i.e. nothing to mourn in 8th is the harsh reality.
I'm talking about a unit/subfaction with consistent rules and over the counter minis who get price hikes to keep them in line with modern plastics despite being older than some of the gamers in the hobby. Of course if cyboars etc were still available with active rules then you'd be correct and they'd need a face lift alongside all the other old 2nd/3rd ed kits.
It's not bias, it's simply updating the old stuff first and saying because chaos marines got some other kits they deserve to keep using 20 year old minis isn't a good enough reason. Again I'm happy to see other factions with ancient kits get some love first (Orks only have the deffkopta/gazzy from memory?), but don't pretend chaos don't need anything.
I've noticed among some players here a tendancy to immediatly whenever someone says "X could use new Y" to immediatly jump in and say "NO A NEEDS B" as if it's some sort of, I dunno zero sum game. I'm thrilled to see any faction get new models. even if they're not my thing, I'm glad someone's excited
It is a zero sum game though, well not excactly but you get my point. GW has limited Ressorces for New stuff and rule stuff. GW will focus their ressources on the things that sell.
This leads to a lot of Xeno races beeing stuck with conscriptable age models. Of course even then there's the case of favourites beeing played. And if you get a whole faction revamp or reintroduction you get more ressources used on that army then the rest.
Then there is the case of GW just refusing to update modellines without rule updates aswell. If GW would stop that and actually release units like plastic Aspects etc. unit by unit the wait for updates would shorten. However GW makes more money if they artificially scarce the market up by waiting for "big" releases.
Not Online!!! wrote: It is a zero sum game though, well not excactly but you get my point.
GW has limited Ressorces for New stuff and rule stuff.
GW will focus their ressources on the things that sell.
This leads to a lot of Xeno races beeing stuck with conscriptable age models.
Of course even then there's the case of favourites beeing played.
And if you get a whole faction revamp or reintroduction you get more ressources used on that army then the rest.
Then there is the case of GW just refusing to update modellines without rule updates aswell. If GW would stop that and actually release units like plastic Aspects etc. unit by unit the wait for updates would shorten.
However GW makes more money if they artificially scarce the market up by waiting for "big" releases.
There is some truth in this certainly, I seem to recall they both allow some design of random stuff and see what fits for a codex but often the sculpts are made to match a unit concept before precise rules are written. They did an article on it a few years ago, but they don't have a way of controlling content or release order from the sculptors side sadly which is probably why they are tied to rules releases.
I think the aspect warriors are on hold for now due to the Eldar range being "moved forwards" in the time line as a guess. I'd not be shocked if aspect warriors get re-imagined totally into new units.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.
I think Dark Eldar need more than just a few updated models. In fact, last time that happened, we got an updated model that was vastly inferior to the old model it was supposed to replace.
What's more, here's a rough list of units that have been completely removed from the DE codex due to a lack of models:
- Archon with Skyboard
- Archon with Jetbike
- Dracon (in spite of actually having a model)
- Dracon with Skyboard
- Dracon with Jetbike
- Haemonculus with Skyboard
- Haemonculus with Jetbike
- Haemonculus Ancient (or the lesser Haemonculus if the current one is supposed to be the ancient), in spite of there being at least 3 different Haemonculus models
- Baron Sathonyx
- Duke Sliscus
- Kheradruakh the Decapitator
- Lady Malys
- Asdrubael Vect
- Vect's Dais of Destruction
- Harlequin Troupe (into their own codex but they're still a loss for ours)
- Trueborn (index only and virtually pointless since they remained overcosted whilst the rest of the codex got cheaper)
- Bloodbrides (index only and entirely pointless as they're now just worse Wyches whilst also being more expensive and not troops)
You'll forgive me if merely updating what few models we have left doesn't really cut it.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.
I think Dark Eldar need more than just a few updated models. In fact, last time that happened, we got an updated model that was vastly inferior to the old model it was supposed to replace.
What's more, here's a rough list of units that have been completely removed from the DE codex due to a lack of models:
- Archon with Skyboard
- Archon with Jetbike
- Dracon (in spite of actually having a model)
- Dracon with Skyboard
- Dracon with Jetbike
- Haemonculus with Skyboard
- Haemonculus with Jetbike
- Haemonculus Ancient (or the lesser Haemonculus if the current one is supposed to be the ancient), in spite of there being at least 3 different Haemonculus models
- Baron Sathonyx
- Duke Sliscus
- Kheradruakh the Decapitator
- Lady Malys
- Asdrubael Vect
- Vect's Dais of Destruction
- Harlequin Troupe (into their own codex but they're still a loss for ours)
- Trueborn (index only and virtually pointless since they remained overcosted whilst the rest of the codex got cheaper)
- Bloodbrides (index only and entirely pointless as they're now just worse Wyches whilst also being more expensive and not troops)
You'll forgive me if merely updating what few models we have left doesn't really cut it.
I stated as much.
You don't need rules for half of these, just the fething models.
And of those that need rules that aren't the special charachters, a simple update or faq or ca could fix them, but alas.
BoomWolf wrote: While EC and WE codcies will be awesome, and they definitely need new models, how about we fix the stupid unplayable codices before we introduce new ones?
EC and WE will probably be the lead ins to a codex like SM. They're perfect targets for new models alongside books.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.
Tau have the opposite problem. Their model line is fairly modern and mostly plastic with very little resin/metal. Their rules are atrocious and bland, but some units are undercosted so they perform well in a tournament setting. They also have the opposite of the "no model no rules" problem with many wargear options disappearing from 7th to 8th. Vehicles literally have 0 options that aren't a weapon with the SOLE exception being the Stormsurge which has access to the battlesuit wargear options due to randomly being a vehicle instead of a battlesuit. For reference, the even bigger Taunar is still classified as a battlesuit.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.
Tau have the opposite problem. Their model line is fairly modern and mostly plastic with very little resin/metal. Their rules are atrocious and bland, but some units are undercosted so they perform well in a tournament setting. They also have the opposite of the "no model no rules" problem with many wargear options disappearing from 7th to 8th. Vehicles literally have 0 options that aren't a weapon with the SOLE exception being the Stormsurge which has access to the battlesuit wargear options due to randomly being a vehicle instead of a battlesuit. For reference, the even bigger Taunar is still classified as a battlesuit.
Many, not all Xenos.
But Tau beeing bland isn't something new.
Not Online!!! wrote: Many, not all Xenos.
But Tau beeing bland isn't something new.
Tyranids are in the same boat, so that's at least two armies that need rules more than models. The Tyranid model range is great, aside from the lack of a plastic LoW, but the rules are all over the place. You've got one build that works (Swarmlord+Flyrants+Genestealers+Hive Guard+Kraken), and then everything else is strictly inferior, with a host of units (primarily Maleceptor, Toxicrene, Haruspex, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard, and all the FW units besides the Malanthrope) that are heavily overcosted and/or lack any kind of clear role. Throw in a bunch of baffling internal balance issues (Why is a Deathspitter only 1pt more than a Devourer? Why are Monstrous Rending Claws free, but Monstrous Scything Talons an extra 15pts?) and it's kind of a mess.
And Tau haven't always been bland. There was a time when you could have a mechanized army using Devilfish for rapid assault (not talking Fish of Fury shenanigans). Or you could run lots of Crisis Suits and jump-shoot-jump to make hit-and-run attacks. Or you could take a lot of Kroot and have a counter-charge element to catch melee armies by surprise. But the only viable build in 8th is a boring, bland, static gunline (no tanks, no Kroot, and Riptides for days), so that's what people run.
Not Online!!! wrote: Many, not all Xenos.
But Tau beeing bland isn't something new.
Tyranids are in the same boat, so that's at least two armies that need rules more than models. The Tyranid model range is great, aside from the lack of a plastic LoW, but the rules are all over the place. You've got one build that works (Swarmlord+Flyrants+Genestealers+Hive Guard+Kraken), and then everything else is strictly inferior, with a host of units (primarily Maleceptor, Toxicrene, Haruspex, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard, and all the FW units besides the Malanthrope) that are heavily overcosted and/or lack any kind of clear role. Throw in a bunch of baffling internal balance issues (Why is a Deathspitter only 1pt more than a Devourer? Why are Monstrous Rending Claws free, but Monstrous Scything Talons an extra 15pts?) and it's kind of a mess.
And Tau haven't always been bland. There was a time when you could have a mechanized army using Devilfish for rapid assault (not talking Fish of Fury shenanigans). Or you could run lots of Crisis Suits and jump-shoot-jump to make hit-and-run attacks. Or you could take a lot of Kroot and have a counter-charge element to catch melee armies by surprise. But the only viable build in 8th is a boring, bland, static gunline (no tanks, no Kroot, and Riptides for days), so that's what people run.
*sigh*
Listen, we know other armies suck.
That doesn't mean Chaos doesn't have its own problems. And discussing everything GW has put out for the last 20 years to talk about updates to our Codex is tedious.
Flooding every conversation with OT spam isn't going to build sympathy, it's going to make people wonder why Xenos players feel the need to make everyone constantly aware of their nit picks. Cut it out!
Here's why CSM have it worse: we get all these clever, engaging models coupled with inferior mechanics designed to make us lose. GW has no problem coming up with new Chaos releases that perform modestly on the tabletop before turning around a month later to change the rules in a way that gives Loyalists an overwhelming advantage.
Our new model releases are the ATM card GW uses to balance out the quarterly statements, or a signal to Loyalists that hunting season is just around the corner. Ask yourself what's worse - having hope constantly snatched away or having to live with mediocre, incomplete model lines? Both are bad but one costs more IRL.
This update is a disgrace. We get +1 attack on the charge, Loyalists get that plus chapter tactics for every unit in their army, tanks capable of 40+ AP- shots, board control through infiltration, first turn deep strike, points reductions, extra AP on everything, and a promise of supplements to expand on these over time.
For those of you hoping for a new Codex CSM release - remember Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions? Both came out about 7 months before 8th edition was announced. That's all I could think of when I saw Vigilus Ablaze and C:CSM II. GW has no interest in supplying us with competitive rules, they only care about giving Loyalists something to shoot at. And they do it again, and again, and again.
Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.
But do tell me about your Necron problems. I really want to hear.
Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.
Hold it right there!
They had bloody Berzerkers ready?
Do they also have a propper cultist box ready? Or better yet renegades and heretics and just fething sitting on these things?!?
Why!
GW frequently produces, or at the very least designs, kits 3-5 years ahead of their release in many cases. They're not thrown out on sale because GW has a very strict release schedule. Kits, factions and armies are all timed to fit into the grand scheme of GW's sales. They also balance them against AoS, etc., often shifting focus back and forth to keep both parties interested.
I'd call nonsense on stuff being done since before Dark Vengeance (and if it was done...it's since been scrapped), but several years is pretty common. You can occasionally see this on printed sprues. Some kits released in 2016 and 2017 have 2013 etc. printed on the sprue. Doesn't mean they were actually printed and boxed in 2013 but the die was cut, etc.
GW is very careful about pacing their releases to ensure that profits aren't spiking and dropping - they need to look steady and consistent for shareholders, etc.
Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.
Hold it right there!
They had bloody Berzerkers ready?
Do they also have a propper cultist box ready? Or better yet renegades and heretics and just fething sitting on these things?!?
Why!
Rumored to be. Primaris were already being worked on prior to 8th. The greater daemons were done for a long time before they came out.
Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.
Hold it right there!
They had bloody Berzerkers ready?
Do they also have a propper cultist box ready? Or better yet renegades and heretics and just fething sitting on these things?!?
Why!
Hey now - I was ranting about the useless update, not trying to start a new stupid rumor.
What I heard was from an unreliable source and it's likely I got the details wrong. But it went like this - GW had sprue molds already made for Berzerkers and a 5-man Possessed kit at the time of Dark Vengeance, along with other CSM models. 2 of the Possessed are what we now know as Greater Possessed, everything else was shelved or destroyed.
What I took from the story is that it takes a long time for a release to happen and a lot of things need to go right. Sprue molds are expensive to make and everything else has to be done before that stage - fluff, rules, art, approvals, fit it into a release schedule, etc.
The fact they scrapped them to get time to improve Loyalists is an example of a different problem, that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
The fact they scrapped them to get time to improve Loyalists is an example of a different problem, that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Your theory just doesn't fly, dude.
What army was opposite the primaris range on the launch of 8th? You can piss into the wind, but it won't keep your pants dry.
Eh, Loyalists get the new good stuff. Sky is blue, etc.
I will wait. My last time to wait for new things for CSM. I will await for when we get legion books. I will wait until we get a new character for my Night Lords. I will happily wait for a Night lords book with additional rules. I had already accepted that our recent release was just to update half the model line. Nothing more. nothing less.
So long as it's decent and it's of quality. I think now we have reached the prime of 8th. When the new books come out and they aren't on par with the rest of the external balance, that is when I will judge if i want to stick around for the game or not.
I've been doing this game for 12 years with no breaks. I'm already not playing as much anymore and I look at my models and find no motivation to finish painting them or even bringing them back out.
If my Night Lords can't be even decent in the next release, when it arrives, then I will just leave. I've spent far too long waiting for quality rules to be put on the back burner. Again.
blood reaper wrote: Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?
Nothing, unless you play with people that "enforce" base size.
You need to use the most up to date version though.
Which is the T5 5 man squad.
Last I knew you used the base sizes that came with the models. If you're going to play tournaments fair enough, but it would be the coldest day in all the hells before I'd rebase all my old marines because GW randomly think they got bigger bases so they can more easily manspread. Not messing up my models, and not spending the hundreds of dollars to get all the 32mm bases I'd need. Someone ever has an issue with my old marines on their bases, we can just not play, that's fine. The random base bloat nonsense is beyond dumb.
" Here at GW, not only do we bloat the rules, and the models, we also love to bloat the bases. Here, bloat is the goat. "
blood reaper wrote: Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.
I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?
Nothing, unless you play with people that "enforce" base size.
You need to use the most up to date version though.
Which is the T5 5 man squad.
Last I knew you used the base sizes that came with the models. If you're going to play tournaments fair enough, but it would be the coldest day in all the hells before I'd rebase all my old marines because GW randomly think they got bigger bases so they can more easily manspread. Not messing up my models, and not spending the hundreds of dollars to get all the 32mm bases I'd need. Someone ever has an issue with my old marines on their bases, we can just not play, that's fine. The random base bloat nonsense is beyond dumb.
" Here at GW, not only do we bloat the rules, and the models, we also love to bloat the bases. Here, bloat is the goat. "
Bases are not enforced though , only the up to date datasheet.
Also no more 20 man iron warrior havoc squads.
