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Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
YES!

Spawn get +1A! ...and daemon engines...

even spawn?!?


Edit: sadly not cultists, but still.
Literally the whole army has now additional shanking on top of it's shanking.

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

I heard Chaos will get a special rule that gives all CSM +1 pt in combat. And also out of combat.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I heard Chaos will get a special rule that gives all CSM +1 pt in combat. And also out of combat.

Dude, that'd be meta-breaking. It'll win all the tournaments.

 Dysartes wrote:

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.

Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.

 Dysartes wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.

Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.

Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?

So the PDF seems to be out now.

Chaos get +1 attack to be comparable to SM. Good.

No chaos update to legion traits. Bad. Very bad.

No chaos traits for vehicles. Very bad.

SM Flamestorm got buffed to 12". Chaos flamestorm got nothing. Bad (for me anyway, as I use it.)

Chaos lose infiltrate. SM gain infiltrating dreadnoughts.

Chaos lose turn 1 deepstriking. SM gain turn 1 deepstriking.


This entire codex is just a slap in the face to any non-imperial player out there.

Niiru wrote:
So the PDF seems to be out now.

Chaos get +1 attack to be comparable to SM. Good.

No chaos update to legion traits. Bad. Very bad.

No chaos traits for vehicles. Very bad.

SM Flamestorm got buffed to 12". Chaos flamestorm got nothing. Bad (for me anyway, as I use it.)

Chaos lose infiltrate. SM gain infiltrating dreadnoughts.

Chaos lose turn 1 deepstriking. SM gain turn 1 deepstriking.


This entire codex is just a slap in the face to any non-imperial player out there.

balanced, as all things should be.

Minor buff for Daemon engines. I'm good with that. I've been putting Heldrakes back into my Nurgle Soup lately. Legion traits would have had to been redone top to bottom for any of them to really apply to vehicles.

Scary Rhinos? Extra fast fight first rhinos? Reroll failed morale rhinos?

The one thing I would have liked was Inexorable Advance on my Predators. But I didnt expect it.


Greatly helps my Death Guard that is mostly Daemon Engines.

Also opens up more than just Malefic Talons as auto take on a Daemon Prince. The DG Daemon Prince of Nurgle can take a plague spewer but must also take a sword.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Minor buff for Daemon engines. I'm good with that. I've been putting Heldrakes back into my Nurgle Soup lately. Legion traits would have had to been redone top to bottom for any of them to really apply to vehicles.

Scary Rhinos? Extra fast fight first rhinos? Reroll failed morale rhinos?

The one thing I would have liked was Inexorable Advance on my Predators. But I didnt expect it.


Greatly helps my Death Guard that is mostly Daemon Engines.

Also opens up more than just Malefic Talons as auto take on a Daemon Prince. The DG Daemon Prince of Nurgle can take a plague spewer but must also take a sword.

I mean, I agree that rerolling morale on rhinos is pointless. But then it's also pointless on dreadnoughts and daemon princes and lords and sorcerers and .... I mean hell, it's pointless on basically all infantry as well, apart from -maybe- cultists (who don't get it anyway). It's a rule that all space marines get for free ON TOP OF THEIR CHAPTER TACTICS, but for word bearers it's their entire legion buff. Ridiculously unbalanced.

Basically all the chaos traits are pointless, or only a very mild upgrade (and nowhere near chapter trait levels), other than Alpha Legion. I usually end up with mixed detachments and just don't bother worrying about the legion trait buffs.

My World Eaters like extra attacks. Now my berserkers are extra blendy.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.

Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.

Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?

Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.

Precisely.

I think the keyword system is one of the main sources of rules-based nonsense. Namely units benefiting things they shouldn't benefit from (traits, stratagems, etc.).

I think the idea behind it was good, but the execution was poor. I think this game would have been far better if they'd done more work to limit what things impact what. Much more time and thought should have been given to this.

Perhaps the addition of a certain keyword such as <AUXILIARY> or something which you could use to disassociate non-Marines while keeping them legal within a detachment, etc.

Likewise, numerous strong stratagems simply shouldn't apply to certain units in certain armies - they went a bit too willy-nilly with it. This isn't just a CSM problem, but an 8th edition issue.

Well, now that the PDF is out, CSM are officially screwed.

Well we got the absolute minimum of what we could have gotten based on what GW said. I am actually surprised that they did not apply hateful assault to Tzzagors, then have to errata it like 2 weeks later. It is really annoying that they did not fix the points for normal CSM and other units that are shared by CSM (and the non-Codex chapters for that matter). Paying different points for what is the same unit is bad rules design. Also at this point CSM now have two units that are higher cost than their imperial counterpart but worse (SM Tacticals are better than CSM with all the new rules and Cultists are a worse version of Guardsmen). Could be worse I guess, at least I don't play a Xeno book, lol.

where you expecting anything beyond the minimum? this FAQ is intended to slide in a quick rule to all space marines, not rebalance every altertnative marine faction.

My god this thread.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:
So the PDF seems to be out now.

Chaos get +1 attack to be comparable to SM. Good.

No chaos update to legion traits. Bad. Very bad.

No chaos traits for vehicles. Very bad.

SM Flamestorm got buffed to 12". Chaos flamestorm got nothing. Bad (for me anyway, as I use it.)

Chaos lose infiltrate. SM gain infiltrating dreadnoughts.

Chaos lose turn 1 deepstriking. SM gain turn 1 deepstriking.


This entire codex is just a slap in the face to any non-imperial player out there.

balanced, as all things should be.

Indeed perfectly so. So Chaos got shafted once again. Anything cool or characterful it will be stripped from the Traitor 's and given to the Loyalists. For instance did Intercessor's 1 pt auto bolt rifles need to be assault 3, like Noise Marine's 4 pt Sonic Blasters? After all they're a troop choice while Noise Marines are elites. Surely, ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts? But what has always bothered me is that a Chaos Lord is only equal to a Loyalist Captain. We have no Chapter Master equivalent. Doctrines, better stratagems, better chapter traits, better rules in general. Its always second best for chaos. But not to worry we'll get these upgrades eventually; just in time for Space Marines to leap frog ahead again. It's like poetry, it rhymes.

I guess I could just run my Emperor's Children as White Scars.

 xeen wrote:
It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines.

Only if they also bring back forcing mono-Marks. Doctrines have to choose which one applies, and can't go back. Being able to take a Mark of Khorne (Call is Assault Doc) on your Berzerkers, and a Mark of Nurgle (call it Tactical Doc) on your Plaguemarines, and have both running at once is so much stronger than Doctrines are now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Precisely.

I think the keyword system is one of the main sources of rules-based nonsense. Namely units benefiting things they shouldn't benefit from (traits, stratagems, etc.).

I think the idea behind it was good, but the execution was poor.

The idea was brilliant. The execution was abysmal. When they brought back Guilliman, they should have worked his Primarch rule for the XIII Legion keyword then given the Ultras, and their successors the XIII Legion Keyword. Are we really going to pretend the Second Founding chapter successors wouldn't be as inspired by Guilliman trampling out his vintage where the Grapes of Wrath are stored? I get that the easier way to do it is to say the Sons of Roboute successor Chapter are just oddly painted Ultras... but they could have done so much more.

Breton wrote:

 xeen wrote:
It would be nice if they made the Mark of Chaos actually do something again. That could be our equivalent of the doctrines.

Only if they also bring back forcing mono-Marks. Doctrines have to choose which one applies, and can't go back. Being able to take a Mark of Khorne (Call is Assault Doc) on your Berzerkers, and a Mark of Nurgle (call it Tactical Doc) on your Plaguemarines, and have both running at once is so much stronger than Doctrines are now.

Well no, he did say he wanted an equivalent to doctrines. So it would be the same thing - if your whole army is Khorne, then you get X.

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.

Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.

Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?

Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.

And how is not giving this rule out to cultists going to fix cultists?

Because right now why do they even exist?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.

Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.

Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?

Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.

And how is not giving this rule out to cultists going to fix cultists?

Because right now why do they even exist?

Aren't they chaffe, charge screens and objective holders?

 Carnikang wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Why the frak would Cultists (or Poxwalkers, Tzaangors, etc) get a rule that is designed to reflect the CC impact of a (Chaos) Space Marine?

Because GW is notoriously bad at writing rules.

Well, it sounds like they got it right this time, at least.

Because WE -cultists were broken how excactly?

Not bothered if they were broken or not - bothered about the thematics of a rule about the shock of CSMs entering combat potentially applying to non-CSM units in their 'dex.

And how is not giving this rule out to cultists going to fix cultists?

Because right now why do they even exist?

Aren't they chaffe, charge screens and objective holders?

At the point where it is better done by R&H units which are also not fielded.
Instead we see nurglings and plaguebearers.
Hu - fething- ray.

Again to reiterate, you don't fix a bad unit by making the decent Alternative unfieldable.

Why do any of you believe that CSM deserve an update when they were literally the last updated army prior to this release? It’s also an army that is performing excellently on the competitive scene without these extra buffs they’ve now received.

Maybe another faction that hasn’t had a glut of new models and new rules might deserve a bit of love now? Necrons and Tyranids immediately spring to mind. Eldar have had sweet jack in terms of model releases this entire edition. It would bore me to death but surely poor GK deserve something? CSM were the first faction to get a V2 codex and were the main focus of the Vigilus 2nd book - shouldn’t you be happy with that?

The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Why do any of you believe that CSM deserve an update when they were literally the last updated army prior to this release? It’s also an army that is performing excellently on the competitive scene without these extra buffs they’ve now received.

Maybe another faction that hasn’t had a glut of new models and new rules might deserve a bit of love now? Necrons and Tyranids immediately spring to mind. Eldar have had sweet jack in terms of model releases this entire edition. It would bore me to death but surely poor GK deserve something? CSM were the first faction to get a V2 codex and were the main focus of the Vigilus 2nd book - shouldn’t you be happy with that?

The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.

And what csm perform competitively?
I'll wait.

Oh and the argument is not sui generis against specialized sm forces that got shafted aswell.
Or the fact that the eldar aspect warrior line can go drinking with me in a bar. Which until recently we could aswell with the csm.

Ohh and on the timing bit.
The V2.0 codex fixed nothing for Chaos.
We got 2 new units, disco lord and the executioner.
One of which you will only ever see as a collectors item, the other only the daemonengine that out of exception for once bloody works.
The traits still gak, cultists are out, csm are all Corsairs now if you not skip them outright in favour of daemon battalions for CP and chaff.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Why do any of you believe that CSM deserve an update when they were literally the last updated army prior to this release? It’s also an army that is performing excellently on the competitive scene without these extra buffs they’ve now received.

This isn't rocket science. It's because SM and CSM have always been almost-mirrors of one another and SM just got a whole bunch of extra buffs that should apply to CSM but GW's inability to plan out their design direction has screwed them over. There's no reason why SM Chapter Tactics should apply to all units while CSM only apply to non-vehicles, and it seems as though SM get Tactical Doctrines for free while CSM get nothing of the sort. Additionally, the basic Marine is now 1 point cheaper in the SM Codex compared to the CSM Codex, which makes no sense from a balance and consistency perspective. The SM is strictly better and cheaper as well. The same currently applies to BA/DA/SW but we can assume those books will be updated at some point while CSM, having just got their update, are stuck due to GW's short-sighted approach to their game.

Not Online!!! wrote:

And what csm perform competitively?
I'll wait.

Oh and the argument is not sui generis against specialized sm forces that got shafted aswell.
Or the fact that the eldar aspect warrior line can go drinking with me in a bar. Which until recently we could aswell with the csm.

Ohh and on the timing bit.
The V2.0 codex fixed nothing for Chaos.
We got 2 new units, disco lord and the executioner.
One of which you will only ever see as a collectors item, the other only the daemonengine that out of exception for once bloody works.
The traits still gak, cultists are out, csm are all Corsairs now if you not skip them outright in favour of daemon battalions for CP and chaff.

I think you are being incredibly negative here and I disagree with your analysis of the new things.

There are CSM lists performing;

https://www.40kstats.com/battleforthepeak
https://www.40kstats.com/barnyardbrawl

There’s a few. Take a look at the top 4 for other events - there are many others.

Chaos as a faction is the second highest performing faction only to Imperium I believe. Fortunately for you, if you feel you current force is lacking in any way it’s trivial to bring in an ally to sure up that weakness. Mono faction players don’t have this luxury. Their competitiveness lives and dies by a singular codex that may not be updated until another edition drops.

Slipspace wrote:

This isn't rocket science. It's because SM and CSM have always been almost-mirrors of one another and SM just got a whole bunch of extra buffs that should apply to CSM but GW's inability to plan out their design direction has screwed them over.

GW are actively trying to make SM and CSM more than just ‘almost mirrors’ of one another though aren’t they. CSM have access to things that loyalists don’t get - marks being the most obvious. Not to mention the raft of units specific to CSM. This is entirely within their design direction I suspect. Ork Gretchin unit’s don’t get the equivalent of chapter traits and GW have stated this is entirely intentional.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

And what csm perform competitively?
I'll wait.

Oh and the argument is not sui generis against specialized sm forces that got shafted aswell.
Or the fact that the eldar aspect warrior line can go drinking with me in a bar. Which until recently we could aswell with the csm.

Ohh and on the timing bit.
The V2.0 codex fixed nothing for Chaos.
We got 2 new units, disco lord and the executioner.
One of which you will only ever see as a collectors item, the other only the daemonengine that out of exception for once bloody works.
The traits still gak, cultists are out, csm are all Corsairs now if you not skip them outright in favour of daemon battalions for CP and chaff.

I think you are being incredibly negative here and I disagree with your analysis of the new things.

There are CSM lists performing;

https://www.40kstats.com/battleforthepeak
https://www.40kstats.com/barnyardbrawl

There’s a few. Take a look at the top 4 for other events - there are many others.

Chaos as a faction is the second highest performing faction only to Imperium I believe. Fortunately for you, if you feel you current force is lacking in any way it’s trivial to bring in an ally to sure up that weakness. Mono faction players don’t have this luxury. Their competitiveness lives and dies by a singular codex that may not be updated until another edition drops.

Slipspace wrote:

This isn't rocket science. It's because SM and CSM have always been almost-mirrors of one another and SM just got a whole bunch of extra buffs that should apply to CSM but GW's inability to plan out their design direction has screwed them over.

GW are actively trying to make SM and CSM more than just ‘almost mirrors’ of one another though aren’t they. CSM have access to things that loyalists don’t get - marks being the most obvious. Not to mention the raft of units specific to CSM. This is entirely within their design direction I suspect. Ork Gretchin unit’s don’t get the equivalent of chapter traits and GW have stated this is entirely intentional.

Hillarious, First off, we are talking about CSM, not the Faction. That the faction is bonkers due to soup thanks to the snowflake legions is no wonder.
Secondly, take a gander at those lists again shall you? Where's the damage done? Wheres the actual meat of the list. Either it's obliterators, or a supreme command of Thousand sons.
Lo and behold. they show up once in one detachment as MSU with the DP's . With a bunch of Obliterators, ofcourse only Slaanesh TM. --> which is in essence the usual suspects since the start of 8th sooo, What excactly did change? Rien, new models, only for the select few traits. Slowclap. The rest and the actual heavy hitters are either daemons, or the Thousand sons HQ spam.
Or a bunch of obliterators. Like excactly what we saw since the cultist nerf.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.

I doubt its a timing issue GW just doesn't care that much about Chaos; and it a repeating pattern. Space Marines got their new OP 7th edition codex in June of 2015, with Gladius, Chapter tactics, etc. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons didn't even get a 7th codex despite being 1-2 years older that the Space Marines 6th Ed Codex! We finally caught up with the loyalists with Legions tactics in Traitor Legions in Dec 2016, 18 months later. Only to have our brand new book invalidated 6 months later in June 2017 with the 8th. Or how about Chaos not getting a 5th Ed codex either, and having to compete for 5 years with those Matt Ward abomination 5th Ed marine codices. Yeah, I know Orks had to wait 7 years. This is a pattern with GW and I'd say Chaos players are justifiably upset at being shafted yet again. If the pattern holds it'll be 2021-2022 before we get comparable rules to Space Marines; just in time for them to leap frog us again in power level.


Tournament armies aren't real Chaos Space Marine armies. Most either break the lore or theme of the army. They either spam broken or under-costed units, or take units that wouldn't actually operate together in the fluff. But if you want to play an actual legion with the order of battle it would actually field according to it's lore you won't be placing in tournaments. So that's a poor comparison your making. Sure I could take 3 Disco lords, 90 Plaguebearers, and two Daemon Primarchs, or knights. But that's not what i'd call a "CSM army".

 Sersi wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


The timing isn’t ideal, but it’s no different to the Ork codex release immediately proceeding CA18 that made our wargear options completely out of date and left us with quite a few overpriced (and underpriced) models. You’re victims of timing so feel hard done by (that I understand) but in the same breath the faction is able to put multiple competitive lists together that are performing very well at the top levels of play - that does not strike me as a faction that needs an update, particularly when there’s been one so recently.

I doubt its a timing issue GW just doesn't care that much about Chaos; and it a repeating pattern. Space Marines got their new OP 7th edition codex in June of 2015, with Gladius, Chapter tactics, etc. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons didn't even get a 7th codex despite being 1-2 years older that the Space Marines 6th Ed Codex! We finally caught up with the loyalists with Legions tactics in Traitor Legions in Dec 2016, 18 months later. Only to have our brand new book invalidated 6 months later in June 2017 with the 8th. Or how about Chaos not getting a 5th Ed codex either, and having to compete for 5 years with those Matt Ward abomination 5th Ed marine codices. Yeah, I know Orks had to wait 7 years. This is a pattern with GW and I'd say Chaos players are justifiably upset at being shafted yet again. If the pattern holds it'll be 2021-2022 before we get comparable rules to Space Marines; just in time for them to leap frog us again in power level.


Tournament armies aren't real Chaos Space Marine armies. Most either break the lore or theme of the army. They either spam broken or under-costed units, or take units that wouldn't actually operate together in the fluff. But if you want to play an actual legion with the order of battle it would actually field according to it's lore you won't be placing in tournaments. So that's a poor comparison your making. Sure I could take 3 Disco lords, 90 Plaguebearers, and two Daemon Primarchs, or knights. But that's not what i'd call a "CSM army".

Or simply everyone and their mother is now a worshipper of the hedonistic prick , to get free shooting phases.
heck look at the termites, if it weren't for the Chainaxe option you wouldn't see them and what are they, Ofcourse slaanesh.

If you haven't access to slaanesh or the purge trait, your unit does not perform to it's price tag. Simple as that really.
Which btw automatically disqualifies how many subfactions? 2 legions and 3 renegade chapters. (and the later mostly due to lack of VoTWL anyways allready out for the count.)


Btw, guess which trait is common in these tournament lists: Alpha legion 2x, one time purge.