I'm this close to biting the bullet and painting up my old marines as either Salamanders or as one of their successors. However...

* The pyromania of the Salamanders can be just a bit much for me.
* The only successor chapters some brief googling revealed are the Black Dragons and Storm Giants.
* Black Dragons are awesome, but I don't have the skills to convert up that many bone swords/crests or to paint that much black.
* Storm Giants are fine but kind of bland, and I don't love their color scheme.


So, are there any other known/suspected Salamander successors I"m not aware of? And how likely is it for Salamanders to have successors in general? I'm under the impression that they're perpetually short-handed implying that successor chapters would probably only happen as a result of someone using their tithed geneseed (Black Dragons) or as a result of the Salamanders themselves having relatively prosperous periods that doesn't seem to be mentioned in the lore from what I can tell.

Salamander sucessor chapters are rare and few in number but they absolutely exist. they ahd no 2nd founding sucessors due to shortages of personal (recovering from Istavann) and as such they never really where seen as a tradtional
"go to" for sucessors. but yeah some exist. they're not like space wolves whom for ages where specificly said NOT to have sucessors. but there aren't many/any known but this is an advantage create your own custom sucessor and make them a salamnders sucessor.

Salamanders have no known successors, some suspected ones, but nothing official. Presumably there would have been some Ultima or Greyshield successors, but then again, maybe not.

I can't recall which book it's in, but one of the Space Marine short stories focusses on Salamanders and heavily implies that the Dragon Warriors Chaos Marine warband are either a successor chapter gone wrong, or a bunch of traitor Salamanders. I could be wrong but remember the Dragon Warriors being pretty numerous and not matching the typical Salamander physical traits/mutations, so I'd be inclined to think they're a successor rather than Salamanders themselves.

There are no confirmed successors and if there are, the Salamanders claim no kinship with them.
The Dragon warriors are lead by an ex Salamanders librarian named Nihilan that was kicked out for doing heretical stuff and has a huge grudge against them for killing his warbands old leader.

Animus wrote:Salamanders have no known successors, some suspected ones, but nothing official. Presumably there would have been some Ultima or Greyshield successors, but then again, maybe not.

Wildkarrde wrote:There are no confirmed successors and if there are, the Salamanders claim no kinship with them.
The Dragon warriors are lead by an ex Salamanders librarian named Nihilan that was kicked out for doing heretical stuff and has a huge grudge against them for killing his warbands old leader.

In the new codex the 18th has no listed successors. It's kinda cool that they're the only ones.

There probably are successors that have been created by the stored geneseed by the mechanicum but the Salamanders them selves do not accept and/or see them as being successors. Hence why the 2 possible examples are just guesses based on some traits that seem common. The only ones who would know for sure are the mechanicum.

One wonders if perhaps the Salamanders are just hostile to the idea of having sucessor chapters

Codex Space Marines 2019 wrote:When the Codex Astartes was revealed, Vulkan was amongst those Primarchs who opposed Guilliman’s decision to split the power of the Legions. Whilst it is unknown what words were exchanged between the two Primarchs, it is believed that Vulkan approached his brother to humbly express his concerns over his Legion’s already seriously depleted numbers. Whatever was said, Guilliman eventually relented; the Salamanders were made exempt from being divided into multiple Chapters, and it is a matter of continued debate whether any successors were created during subsequent foundings using the Salamanders’ gene-seed. The similarities in physique, markings and tactical dogma of several other Chapters, however – such as the Black Dragons and Storm Giants – make it seem likely.

They were always one of the smaller legions to begin with and then at the first founding, they were too small to split. So I think it's more they never had the same experiance as the bigger legions of separating. I guess they just never had a kinship with another chapter like the ultramarines where they knew the marines that went to the new chapter.

Just as likely that Guilliman is a petty dick and his price for not splitting the legion was no successors.

The whole point to the codex was not to stop another heresy but to actually be another heresy and allow girlyman to consolidate power neuter his brothers and take control.

The Ultramarines never actually split in any meaningful way and we’re all ready the largest remaining force due to taking a wrong turn somewhere and missing the heresy due to building his own power base/imperium.

He conspired with Cawl to commit heresy by stealing the emperors secrets for creating marines and producing a new mutant species of marines in vast numbers all to be equipped with tech heretic weapons designed to kill real marines.

He used his position on the council of terra to hinder the loyal primarchs and there forces by sending them into meat grinder missions while protecting his UM.

I personally believe he was the reason that most of the other loyal primarchs “disappeared” I mean it’s not like he was not in charge of the assassin temples.

Looking at the current timeline Girlyman empire mk2 seems to have kicked off fast so I would say he was only weeks from making his move before he got his throat slit and chaos accidentally saved the imperium.

SeanDrake wrote:

Just as likely that Guilliman is a petty dick and his price for not splitting the legion was no successors.

except numerous soruces all say the salamanders didn't have the resources to split into multiple chapters.which was why Vulkan talked to Gulliman. assuming Gulliman was somehow a petty donkey-cave about that would require some sort of proof he was that much of a petty donkey-cave. and there's not much evidance for that.

The whole point to the codex was not to stop another heresy but to actually be another heresy and allow girlyman to consolidate power neuter his brothers and take control.

Gulliman already ahd the strongest Legion at the time of the 2nd founding. the idea that he split the legions to weaken his rivals is nonsensiacal, he weakened HIMSELF more then anyone else. Th codex's job was indeed to ensure no legion wopuld turn traitor again.. and it WORKED. The largest war fought between Astartes since then was the Badab War,
which say 4 (or 5) chapters of space Marines turn. that's 5000 or so Space Marines tops. a paltry number comapred to the Legions of old. At REDUCING THE COST of upper echelon heresy the Codex was a rousing sucess.

The Ultramarines never actually split in any meaningful way and we’re all ready the largest remaining force due to taking a wrong turn somewhere and missing the heresy due to building his own power base/imperium.

Yes because it's the Ultramarines who meet every century ago to stage an elaborate swordfighting compeition, ohh wait that's the Imperial Fists. It's the Ultramarines who have regular meetings among chapter masters who all take their orders from the first founders leader.. ohh wait, thats the dark angels. It's the Ultramarines who summoned their every sucessor to defend their homeworld when it was under Tyranid threat... ohh wait thats the Blood Angels.

He conspired with Cawl to commit heresy by stealing the emperors secrets for creating marines and producing a new mutant species of marines in vast numbers all to be equipped with tech heretic weapons designed to kill real marines.

The Custodes say the Primaris is the Emperor's will.. I'm gonna take their word for that.

He used his position on the council of terra to hinder the loyal primarchs and there forces by sending them into meat grinder missions while protecting his UM.

No he didn't, Dorn rushed into the Iron Cage by himself. the soruce material is clear that the Ultramarines where the speartip of the scouring. Gulliman was "Said to have been everywhere during this period, rallying the Imperial defenders and reinforcing them with his Ultramarines before moving on to the next battle zone" This doesn't mean the other Legions didn't do their part, but the Ultramarines where large and comparitvily fresh and thus could take up the slack. (the novel Ruinstorm implies the Dark Angels and Ultramarines may have, essentially, begun the scouring before the battle of Terra had even properly began, cutting off Horus' logistics train)

I personally believe he was the reason that most of the other loyal primarchs “disappeared” I mean it’s not like he was not in charge of the assassin temples.

and you'd be wrong.

Looking at the current timeline Girlyman empire mk2 seems to have kicked off fast so I would say he was only weeks from making his move before he got his throat slit and chaos accidentally saved the imperium.

you realize that's because Gulliman was just resuming a post he already had right? there was no need for a coup, following the Heresy Gulliman WAS running the Empire, with his brothers BLESSING. I mean seriously, do you think RUSS had any intreast in dealing with Terran politics and rule?!

Exactly. Guilliman split the legions so that no one man had such power... then made himself the Lord Commander having much greater authority. The guy is an usurper and a hypocrite of the highest order.

 Crimson wrote:
Exactly. Guilliman split the legions so that no one man had such power... then made himself the Lord Commander having much greater authority. The guy is an usurper and a hypocrite of the highest order.

A usurper implies he stole someone else's throne.

He also gave up power immediately after the crisis was over and returned it to the people the Emperor had originally appointed (the High Lords).

 Crazyterran wrote:
He also gave up power immediately after the crisis was over and returned it to the people the Emperor had originally appointed (the High Lords).

Did he surrender power formally or did it happen once he got tossed in stasis for 10k years? I'm iffy on that bit of the timeline. I can certainly see Gulliman setting up a government to function nicely and then heading off to handle the military matters well telling the folks back on Terra "you got this, lemme know if you need anything"

I'm also thinking about a Salamanders successor (would do Sallies, but having DAs I don't want more green). I've enjoyed adding them to my Deathwatch for sure. I want to keep the dragon theme but will probably go with red armour (very tempted to tie this in with a Samurai theme). I'm going to wait for the supplement before I choose.

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm also thinking about a Salamanders successor (would do Sallies, but having DAs I don't want more green). I've enjoyed adding them to my Deathwatch for sure. I want to keep the dragon theme but will probably go with red armour (very tempted to tie this in with a Samurai theme). I'm going to wait for the supplement before I choose.

How about go with red with white shoudlerpads and a oriental dragon in red on the shoulder?
Call them "Sons of the Dragon" "Risen Sons" ?

How about "Divine Sons"?
Puppetswar has Samurai heads: https://puppetswar.eu/catalogsearch/result/?q=samurai
Katanas: https://puppetswar.eu/models-and-bits-47/sci-fi/mankind/bits/infantry-weapons/katanas-right.html
Sashimono (back banners) https://puppetswar.eu/models-and-bits-47/sci-fi/mankind/bits/infantry-equipment/bushi-banners.html

And for the OP:
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Salamanders

BrianDavion wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm also thinking about a Salamanders successor (would do Sallies, but having DAs I don't want more green). I've enjoyed adding them to my Deathwatch for sure. I want to keep the dragon theme but will probably go with red armour (very tempted to tie this in with a Samurai theme). I'm going to wait for the supplement before I choose.

How about go with red with white shoudlerpads and a oriental dragon in red on the shoulder?
Call them "Sons of the Dragon" "Risen Sons" ?

While not personally a big Ultra Marine fan, I never got the hate for Bobby G picking up the pieces after the Heresy.

Who else would have done it, The emperor was crippled, Malcador was dead and the only other primarch that had shown any real though for logistics and politics ran off with most of his legion and got most of them killed.

I don't know the exact order of who disappeared when but if he hadn't stepped in the IOM would have likely broken into a bunch of tiny empires vulnerable to larger powers.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
While not personally a big Ultra Marine fan, I never got the hate for Bobby G picking up the pieces after the Heresy.

Who else would have done it, The emperor was crippled, Malcador was dead and the only other primarch that had shown any real though for logistics and politics ran off with most of his legion and got most of them killed.

I don't know the exact order of who disappeared when but if he hadn't stepped in the IOM would have likely broken into a bunch of tiny empires vulnerable to larger powers.

back in 5th edition the space marine codex was EXTREMELY Ultramarines centric. refering to Gulliman of a spiritual leige of all space marine chapters. this triggered people who played a chapter other then Ultramarines. and lead to all sorts of wild hate on him in some attempt to basicly tear him down to build their own primarch up.

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
While not personally a big Ultra Marine fan, I never got the hate for Bobby G picking up the pieces after the Heresy.

Who else would have done it, The emperor was crippled, Malcador was dead and the only other primarch that had shown any real though for logistics and politics ran off with most of his legion and got most of them killed.

I don't know the exact order of who disappeared when but if he hadn't stepped in the IOM would have likely broken into a bunch of tiny empires vulnerable to larger powers.

back in 5th edition the space marine codex was EXTREMELY Ultramarines centric. refering to Gulliman of a spiritual leige of all space marine chapters. this triggered people who played a chapter other then Ultramarines. and lead to all sorts of wild hate on him in some attempt to basicly tear him down to build their own primarch up.

Which is stupid because he was one of the most effective Primarchs if certain players decided to get their lore outside 1d4chan for once.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
While not personally a big Ultra Marine fan, I never got the hate for Bobby G picking up the pieces after the Heresy.

Who else would have done it, The emperor was crippled, Malcador was dead and the only other primarch that had shown any real though for logistics and politics ran off with most of his legion and got most of them killed.

I don't know the exact order of who disappeared when but if he hadn't stepped in the IOM would have likely broken into a bunch of tiny empires vulnerable to larger powers.

back in 5th edition the space marine codex was EXTREMELY Ultramarines centric. refering to Gulliman of a spiritual leige of all space marine chapters. this triggered people who played a chapter other then Ultramarines. and lead to all sorts of wild hate on him in some attempt to basicly tear him down to build their own primarch up.

Which is stupid because he was one of the most effective Primarchs if certain players decided to get their lore outside 1d4chan for once.

ohh I agree. Hell here's soemthing funny, the Matt Ward 5th edition codex was more right then wrong. basicly when you boil down what the codex says it basicly says "even Marines whom aren't ultramarines sucessors hold Gulliman in insanely high regard" and well.. I suspect thats true. Gulliman was achomplished eneugh that none could deny his acheivements.

As a rule, new chapters are made with stored geneseed from Mars. The only exceptions should be the second founding and the Sons of Medusa. The Salamander geneseed could be used in dozens of chapters but they wouldn’t be Nocturnean or Promethean style culture. Unless the Salamanders were part of their early training and were also told that they were genetically linked, the new chapter would only have physical similarities, not cultural.

The progenitor legion thing is pretty played. It’s helpful for a crude product where there are a few different classes or races, but when it comes to warhammer it breaks the fourth wall to be told so bluntly that this is just a mass market video game.

BrianDavion wrote:
Hell here's soemthing funny, the Matt Ward 5th edition codex was more right then wrong.

What I don't understand is why Matt Ward gets all the blame for supposedly over-fanboying the Ultramarines. They have been explicitly described by GW as "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" since 2nd edition. Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson are the ones who decided that should be the case. Ward just took what had already been canon for a decade and a half and ran with it. And his version of Codex: Space Marines was nowhere near as Ultramarines-centric as the 2nd edition version, which was literally called Codex: Ultramarines despite being intended to cover all chapters that weren't Space Wolves, Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
While not personally a big Ultra Marine fan, I never got the hate for Bobby G picking up the pieces after the Heresy.

Who else would have done it, The emperor was crippled, Malcador was dead and the only other primarch that had shown any real though for logistics and politics ran off with most of his legion and got most of them killed.

I don't know the exact order of who disappeared when but if he hadn't stepped in the IOM would have likely broken into a bunch of tiny empires vulnerable to larger powers.

You do realise that people other than Primarchs and other superhumans do exist in the setting? It is understandable if you forgot, GW seems to do so too.

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
While not personally a big Ultra Marine fan, I never got the hate for Bobby G picking up the pieces after the Heresy.

Who else would have done it, The emperor was crippled, Malcador was dead and the only other primarch that had shown any real though for logistics and politics ran off with most of his legion and got most of them killed.

I don't know the exact order of who disappeared when but if he hadn't stepped in the IOM would have likely broken into a bunch of tiny empires vulnerable to larger powers.

You do realise that people other than Primarchs and other superhumans do exist in the setting? It is understandable if you forgot, GW seems to do so too.

Of the remain post Heresy, who would you have picked to put the pieces back together. In no particular order of the loyalist

Sang- Dead
Russ- His legion was shattered, he was badly wounded and while a great warrior had not sense for politics or governing.
Vulkan- Missing (we still don't have the full story on this to be fair)
Bobby G- The one who took up the mantle
The Lion- It's my understanding he was the first one to disappear after the HH dealing with his own mini rebellion so he's out
The Khan- A loner who doesn't exactly scream successor to the throne
Ferrus- Dead
Dorn- The only other Primarch that might be able to do what Bobby G did and pass reforms to make things work post HH, instead he ran off due to guilt and got most of his legion slaughtered in a trap.

Forgot about Corax but he was dealing with so much guilt and shame, he wouldn't have exactly been in the best head space to lead an empire.

Dorn in fact, it is strongly implied was wracked by survivor's guilt. so he wouldn't have been in the head space to do it. as for regular humans...

who would have taken it up? Had he survived Malcador would have been the obvious choiuce, but Malcador was also dead. And it needed to be a person who was, at the least, perceived as part of the Emperor's Inner Circle. no Gulliman was the logical choice.

BrianDavion wrote:
Dorn in fact, it is strongly implied was wracked by survivor's guilt. so he wouldn't have been in the head space to do it. as for regular humans...

who would have taken it up? Had he survived Malcador would have been the obvious choiuce, but Malcador was also dead. And it needed to be a person who was, at the least, perceived as part of the Emperor's Inner Circle. no Gulliman was the logical choice.

I think it's plausible to make the argument that losing malcador was worse than the Emperor being crippled. Both are very big blows but the HH makes it clear that pretty much all the day to day institutions that help make the current imperium "work" were set up by Malcador and he was a peerless administrator.

BrianDavion wrote:
Dorn in fact, it is strongly implied was wracked by survivor's guilt. so he wouldn't have been in the head space to do it. as for regular humans...

who would have taken it up? Had he survived Malcador would have been the obvious choiuce, but Malcador was also dead. And it needed to be a person who was, at the least, perceived as part of the Emperor's Inner Circle. no Gulliman was the logical choice.

Didn't the Emperor set up a group of humans for exactly the job of ruling the Imperium?

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Of the remain post Heresy, who would you have picked to put the pieces back together.

The Senate Imperialis composed of normal humans. The Primarchs and Space Marines should have been stripped of any political authority. At this point it should have been clear that those superpowered man-babies with inflated egos had caused enough damage already.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

You do realise that people other than Primarchs and other superhumans do exist in the setting? It is understandable if you forgot, GW seems to do so too.

Of the remain post Heresy, who would you have picked to put the pieces back together. In no particular order of the loyalist

Sang- Dead
Russ-
[primarchs]

A heroic human like a 30k predecessor to Macharius or Thor would have done it. GW didn’t write about anyone like that, they wrote about primaries because those are the products that people were already buying. They’re a victim of their own marketing. All they HH books from BL and FW are pretty mercenary. The Index Astartes articles in white dwarf are pretty on the nose for that matter.

pelicaniforce wrote:
A heroic human like a 30k predecessor to Macharius or Thor would have done it.

You mean like all the ones that were pretty much dead by the end of the Siege of Terra? The reason we hear about Primarchs and Custodes heroes post Horus is because they're the ones that actually survived. Ollanius Pius is only famous BECAUSE he died, after all.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

No, but the ones with strength of will to run the Imperium, were.

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Of the remain post Heresy, who would you have picked to put the pieces back together.

The Senate Imperialis composed of normal humans. The Primarchs and Space Marines should have been stripped of any political authority. At this point it should have been clear that those superpowered man-babies with inflated egos had caused enough damage already.

Giving the Highlords track record vs Bobby G, Bobby G has my vote. He was a dictator in the roman sense of the word, it's likely that he would have turned it over at some point but short term the IOM needed strong central leadership.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

you act like Gulliman taking over is some new idea of BL's. the lore of gulliman taking over the IoM after the heresy is from the codexes and is as I understand it pretty old info

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

you act like Gulliman taking over is some new idea of BL's. the lore of gulliman taking over the IoM after the heresy is from the codexes and is as I understand it pretty old info

Yes, his hilarious hypocrisy is indeed ancient fluff. He orders his brothers brothers to break the legions so that no one man would command such might... and then takes over running the entire military of the Imperium. (Though not the entire Imperium itself, at least de jure. He was 'just' one of the High Lords.)

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

you act like Gulliman taking over is some new idea of BL's. the lore of gulliman taking over the IoM after the heresy is from the codexes and is as I understand it pretty old info

Yes, his hilarious hypocrisy is indeed ancient fluff. He orders his brothers brothers to break the legions so that no one man would command such might... and then takes over running the entire military of the Imperium. (Though not the entire Imperium itself, at least de jure. He was 'just' one of the High Lords.)

Crimson - you have stated that you don't read the novels from Black Library. You literally don't know what you're talking about.

It's pretty obvious you've read some rubbish on 1d4 chan and are now spouting said rubbish on the forum.

For someone who doesn't care enough about the lore to actually look into it, you seem to do an awful lot or arguing about it!

With the advent of Primaris it is possible that Salamanders now have enough marines to form a successor chapter

 Corennus wrote:
With the advent of Primaris it is possible that Salamanders now have enough marines to form a successor chapter

This is more or less guaranteed. In Dark Imperum they outline that the genetic defects have been ironed out.

Space Wolves now have successors - Salamanders will too.

 Ishagu wrote:

Crimson - you have stated that you don't read the novels from Black Library. You literally don't know what you're talking about.

It's pretty obvious you've read some rubbish on 1d4 chan and are now spouting said rubbish on the forum.

For someone who doesn't care enough about the lore to actually look into it, you seem to do an awful lot or arguing about it!

I do care about the background a lot. My understanding of it is not based on crappy wikis, it is based on the studio fluff, decades of it. It is really interesting to see how the lore has evolved, from Rogue Trader, to the masive retcon of the second edition, to the Index Astartes articles on WD.

To me the BL books are a separate thing. They're an interpretation. If you like them cool, but if I want to read a good novel, BL would not be my first (or fifth! ) choice.

Nor I need to read them to appreciate the background. I don't need to see Nolan's Batman films to appreciate Miller's Dark Knight comics.

And of course this was about the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the BL books haven't gotten that far and will not for years.

So why are you discussing things which aren't really detailed to any great extent in the codex?

You've formed an opinion on Guilliman's motives from the time of the scouring. The codex gives you no real insight beyond the need to limit individual powers - no one commanding a legion.

You have no grounds or basis to criticise his action. Perhaps if you read some of the relevant BL novels you'll gain more insight. Also you complain about how the lore doesn't focus on normal humans? Plenty of the recent BL novels do and they have prominent human characters, as does the Astra Militarum codex - in this respect you are wrong.

In this case (as it often is) less information is better. If we look merely at Guiliman's actions like we were reading a history book, we really cannot know his motivations. This is good as it allows multiple interpretations. Scheming, machiavellian, power-hungry Guilliman is much more interesting than the bland noble hero of BL.

So you'd prefer it if Guilliman was the exact same character as everyone else in the Imperium hierarchy?

That sounds infinitely more boring.

I seem to recall reading a version of the Second Founding fluff where breaking up the legions wasn't actually what Guilliman wanted to do, but rather it was a compromise made with the High Lords. They wanted to exterminate every last Astartes as potential traitors, and breaking up the legions into chapters was the price they demanded for allowing any Astartes to continue to exist at all.

Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read that, or even if it was official GW fluff or just some fan theory. But if that version was the truth, it would make sense of Guilliman's willingness to be a little more flexible now he's back from the dead, because he's no longer having to keep a bunch of reactionary just-post-Horus-Heresy High Lords happy and can just do what he thinks the Imperium needs right now, even if that means pretty much becoming a new Warmaster.

(Also, changing your opinion when the situation or available information changes isn't hypocrisy.)

 Ishagu wrote:
So you'd prefer it if Guilliman was the exact same character as everyone else in the Imperium hierarchy?

That sounds infinitely more boring.

I want him to fit the setting. A noblebright superhero taking over and starting to fix things is vomit-inducingly inappropriate and goes massively against the themes of 40K as it was conceived.

Clearly you don't know anything about Guilliman or the lore.
He is those things because he hails from a different, more enlightenment time.

That's what makes him more interesting and unique. A virtuous hero trying to save a corrupt, decrepit, fascistic empire.

Maybe you should read the novels detailing his mental and moral struggles in the current time. It's some of the more interesting 40k lore.
You're completely ignorant to the finer points and detail, yet lecture others as though you're informed.

One of the interesting things about the Great Crusade is that it's a positive whitewash of some pretty awful stuff. It's snuffing out civilizations, wiping out alien races, and lying to people about the nature of their universe (imperial truth, etc). Plus Guilliman isn't above setting people on fire to set an example of exactly how flamable people can be.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
With the advent of Primaris it is possible that Salamanders now have enough marines to form a successor chapter

This is more or less guaranteed. In Dark Imperum they outline that the genetic defects have been ironed out.

Space Wolves now have successors - Salamanders will too.

That sounds incredibly ******. GW seem to really enjoy taking old lore that was good and replacing it with LOOK HOW GOOD OUR PRIMARIS ARE AND HOW SMART CAWL IS!!!!!!!

 Ishagu wrote:
Clearly you don't know anything about Guilliman or the lore.
He is those things because he hails from a different, more enlightenment time.

Yes, that is the reason. Doesn't change the fact that having him there ruining the setting is a terrible idea.

That's what makes him more interesting and unique. A virtuous hero trying to save a corrupt, decrepit, fascistic empire.

If it was some normal human trying to do that while struggling against the institutional corruption and impossible odds it could be interesting. But when it is a literal demigod and everyone just fights for the change to kiss his shiny arse then it just lame beyond belief.

Maybe you should read the novels detailing his mental and moral struggles in the current time. It's some of the more interesting 40k lore.
You're completely ignorant to the finer points and detail, yet lecture others as though you're informed.

Is someone paying you to shill that trash? If the basic concept is idiotic no amount of extra detail and polishing will save it.

 Crimson wrote:
If it was some normal human trying to do that while struggling against the institutional corruption and impossible odds it could be interesting. But when it is a literal demigod and everyone just fights for the change to kiss his shiny arse then it just lame beyond belief.

The latter is not actually happening. There are hints of rising friction between Guilliman and others within the Imperium, particularly the Ecclesiarchy in the newer books. Watching Guilliman attempt to navigate the mess that the Imperium has become has been presented in an interesting way if you bother to actually read the books.

Guilliman didn’t force the other primarchs to do anything. He made the suggestion and argued for his brothers to adopt it. Russ straight out didn’t, Vulkan successfully argued he didn’t have the people to do it.

Nothing Guilliman said tipped Dorn over for it until the Imperial Navy and it’s commanders, fearful of the Legions and Astartes, fired upon the Imperial Fists. Dorn realized that he had to do it only after another civil war almost broke out.

The Imperial Fists were the only legion against the codex that was big enough after the heresy to be split.

I think Dark Imperium implied Guilliman had already given up power by the time he was chasing down Fulgrim, and I know some of the older codex lore did the same. I’ll have to look again.

 ikeulhu wrote:

The latter is not actually happening. There are hints of rising friction between Guilliman and others within the Imperium, particularly the Ecclesiarchy in the newer books. Watching Guilliman attempt to navigate the mess that the Imperium has become has been presented in an interesting way if you bother to actually read the books.

And if Guilliman wasn't a demigod with a backing of the Emperor and Custodes that sort of thing might be indeed interesting.

You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

 Crimson wrote:
And if Guilliman wasn't a demigod with a backing of the Emperor and Custodes that sort of thing might be indeed interesting.

He is a flawed demigod without 100% backing. This seems to be a common misconception by those that have not read any of the newer books. There are factions within the Imperium that do not completely accept him being backed by the Emperor just because he entered the throne room and left. No one but Guilliman and the Emperor knows exactly what happened in that meeting and there are in fact those in the Imperium that fear Guilliman is just an usurper. The entire Imperium is not falling completely in line with him, otherwise I would be in complete agreeance with you about it being boring and disruptive to the setting. I personally think showing a flawed demi-god struggling to steer the quagmire of corruption and religiosity that the Imperium has become is a good way to emphasize many of the themes of the setting in a way that is actually interesting.

Book spoiler below:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

That's a personal outlook and not an objective one. If you don't like it you're free to ignore it.

Play 30k or games set in 36k, for example.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

Yes, because a religiously inclined Inquisitor is totally going to attempt to execute a divine son of the Emperor. I think I pulled an eye muscle they rolled so hard.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

Yes, because a religiously inclined Inquisitor is totally going to attempt to execute a divine son of the Emperor. I think I pulled an eye muscle they rolled so hard.

It is because you do not understand the literary reference in question. It is reference to 'Grand Inquisitor' a story withing a story in Dostoyevsky's the Brothers Karamazov. In this story Christ returns on Earth in the sixteenth century Spain. He starts to perform miracles, but it is promptly arrested by the Catholic Church. An Inquisitor explains to him that Christ is not needed. The Church has a good thing going, and Christ cannot be allowed to upset the status quo. That is grimdark and would be perfectly applicable to 40K.

And this is why you should read real literature.

The way things are going it could sort of get to that point. An internal war between Guilliman and the Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is potentially brewing within the current fluff, and I think it would be great if GW did go in that direction but I will also admit that they may disappointingly not get around to pushing it that far.

 ikeulhu wrote:
The way things are going it could sort of get to that point. An internal war between Guilliman and the Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is potentially brewing within the current fluff, and I think it would be great if GW did go in that direction but I will also admit that they may disappointingly not get around to pushing it that far.

'Ultima Heresy' would certainly improve this post-gathering-storm mess. I really doubt that they'd have balls to do that though.

Yeah, they may just tease us with the hint of it without ever reaching the breaking point of full on civil war. Even if they do manage the courage to go that far I suspect it will be a very slow build up to get there, but at least the hints are there and not everything is roses and rainbows with the return of Guilliman.

 Crimson wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

Yes, because a religiously inclined Inquisitor is totally going to attempt to execute a divine son of the Emperor. I think I pulled an eye muscle they rolled so hard.

It is because you do not understand the literary reference in question. It is reference to 'Grand Inquisitor' a story withing a story in Dostoyevsky's the Brothers Karamazov. In this story Christ returns on Earth in the sixteenth century Spain. He starts to perform miracles, but it is promptly arrested by the Catholic Church. An Inquisitor explains to him that Christ is not needed. The Church has a good thing going, and Christ cannot be allowed to upset the status quo. That is grimdark and would be perfectly applicable to 40K.

And this is why you should read real literature.

Yeah there's a small amount of difference between a human performing miracles and a walking demigod that has had people visit in stasis...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah there's a small amount of difference between a human performing miracles and a walking demigod that has had people visit in stasis...

I fail to see your point. It is not like in 'the Grand Inquisitor' the Inquisitor didn't believe that the Christ was the real Second Coming. He knows it is. It just happens to be inconvenient for the Church, so it can't be allowed to happen. Similarly returning Primarchs are super inconvenient for the people currently in power, a living son of the Emperor is bad news for those whose authority relies on telling the people the will of the Emperor. It is pretty much a perfectly analogous situation.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah there's a small amount of difference between a human performing miracles and a walking demigod that has had people visit in stasis...

I fail to see your point. It is not like in 'the Grand Inquisitor' the Inquisitor didn't believe that the Christ was the real Second Coming. He knows it is. It just happens to be inconvenient for the Church, so it can't be allowed to happen. Similarly returning Primarchs are super inconvenient for the people currently in power, a living son of the Emperor is bad news for those whose authority relies on telling the people the will of the Emperor. It is pretty much a perfectly analogous situation.

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

Also, Grimdark for the SAKE of Grimdark is bad writing, as is the story you tried to connect with it.

 Crimson wrote:

I fail to see your point. It is not like in 'the Grand Inquisitor' the Inquisitor didn't believe that the Christ was the real Second Coming. He knows it is. It just happens to be inconvenient for the Church, so it can't be allowed to happen. Similarly returning Primarchs are super inconvenient for the people currently in power, a living son of the Emperor is bad news for those whose authority relies on telling the people the will of the Emperor. It is pretty much a perfectly analogous situation.

Completely agree with Crimson on this one, the comparison is actually very apt, and the existence of such a parallel is what gives me a smidgen of hope that GW will eventually take things in a similar direction. While I may be giving GW too much credit, I would be very surprised if no one at GW is aware of the opportunity to have such a great parallel within the setting.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

Can we get back to the 18th and talk about a Primarch who isnt a stick in the mud, you know, Vulkan?


The new codex surprisingly has ZERO listed and they're the only one like it.

The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

 Crimson wrote:
The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

IIRC the Black Dragons are one of the rumoured Successors and they have janky gene seed so maybe it's the Salamanders trying to distance themselves from the idea of corrupt gene seed?

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

IIRC the Black Dragons are one of the rumoured Successors and they have janky gene seed so maybe it's the Salamanders trying to distance themselves from the idea of corrupt gene seed?

Yes, that makes sense in that one specific case. But is there something wrong in all the successors they have spawned in 10 000 years? Or is there something secretly wrong with their geneseed and that's why it wasn't used (and once it was, it resulted mutants.)

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

IIRC the Black Dragons are one of the rumoured Successors and they have janky gene seed so maybe it's the Salamanders trying to distance themselves from the idea of corrupt gene seed?

Yes, that makes sense in that one specific case. But is there something wrong in all the successors they have spawned in 10 000 years? Or is there something secretly wrong with their geneseed and that's why it wasn't used (and once it was, it resulted mutants.)

I don't know about other successors but why would you use weird gene seed for a Chapter when you have piles of the good stuff from things like smurfs and da?

pm713 wrote:

I don't know about other successors but why would you use weird gene seed for a Chapter when you have piles of the good stuff from things like smurfs and da?

There are successors for all other loyalist chapters, except Wolves where there is a specific stated reason for it. No such reason is given for Salamanders.

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I don't know about other successors but why would you use weird gene seed for a Chapter when you have piles of the good stuff from things like smurfs and da?

There are successors for all other loyalist chapters, except Wolves where there is a specific stated reason for it. No such reason is given for Salamanders.

they don't nesscarily out and out state it but it's clear that the adeptus terra prefers to use geneseed with as few mutations as possiable. Salamanders have an obvious, and visable mutation, so that might be the reason their geneseed is seldom used

BrianDavion wrote:

they don't nesscarily out and out state it but it's clear that the adeptus terra prefers to use geneseed with as few mutations as possiable. Salamanders have an obvious, and visable mutation, so that might be the reason their geneseed is seldom used

So do Raven Guard, yet they have plenty of successors. They're just super white instead of super black... This sounds like unfortunate implications to me...

In any case, if there is some reason, it is weird that it has not been stated.

Until this topic I didn't realize that they don't have any chapters that are explicitly known to be direct successors. Them not having any at the start of the splitting makes sense since they got chewed up the most but it's a little odd that a highly unstable geneseed has a legions worth of chapters (blood angels ) and the Salamanders don't.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

There is a differance between having a secure position and not being uber powerful. let's be brutally BRUTALLY honest? has GW ever given a feth about the Byzentinian intrigue on the Throne world? Does Gulliman really present a real change from the status quo in that regard? Why should we expect tons of info about Byzantiune power intrigues in the lore to start cropping up now aftter 30 years? in fact with the vaults of Terra series, watchers on the throne, and presumably rites of passage, it's only since Gulliman's return that the political angle of 40k has even been touched. (in a manner beyond "lol the Imperium is fighting itself cause politics!")

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, that makes sense in that one specific case. But is there something wrong in all the successors they have spawned in 10 000 years? Or is there something secretly wrong with their geneseed and that's why it wasn't used (and once it was, it resulted mutants.)

There's also the Storm Giants. Who also have a significant geneseed mutation issue (an overactive Biscopea). So this does seem to be a general problem with geneseed derived from Vulkan. I would assume the Imperium deliberately obfuscates the origins of such mutant successors because the Salamanders are one of the most well-regarded chapters among ordinary people. Admitting such a heroic chapter have major genetic deviancy issues would be bad PR.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Which is why Brutus could never take on Julius IRL. Too many legions under his command...

After all, Oswald was only able to do the Red Army proud because Kenedy was universally reviled amongst Americans, or something...

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Which is why Brutus could never take on Julius IRL. Too many legions under his command...

After all, Oswald was only able to do the Red Army proud because Kenedy was universally reviled amongst Americans, or something...

Well when Brutus and Oswald are as powerful as a Primarch lemme know so your point has any strength to it.

Julius Ceaser and Kennedy could be killed by a blade between the ribs or an assasin's bullet. I'm not sure eaither would stop a Primarch.

Also KILLING Gulliman is proably something that'd be seen as basicly unthinkable

BrianDavion wrote:
Julius Ceaser and Kennedy could be killed by a blade between the ribs or an assasin's bullet. I'm not sure eaither would stop a Primarch.

Also KILLING Gulliman is proably something that'd be seen as basicly unthinkable

The best way to kill Guilliman is the same as all Space Marines. Blow up their starship while they're on it.

Also, Julius Caesar was pretty damn hard to kill too! He took 23 dagger stabs, only one of them being fatal, so he obviously had a lot of hit points!

The guys that stabbed him were not the best at knife fighting - one missed him and sliced Brutus, another managed to miss so well they stabbed one of their own guys in the thigh!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Which is why Brutus could never take on Julius IRL. Too many legions under his command...

After all, Oswald was only able to do the Red Army proud because Kenedy was universally reviled amongst Americans, or something...

Well when Brutus and Oswald are as powerful as a Primarch lemme know so your point has any strength to it.

1. Your point would make more sense if you were asking if Julius or Kenedy were Primarch-powerful, not their assassins.
2. How much of Horuses "Yay I'm a Primarch, that's why I'm so OP" did it take to remove Magnus and Russ from the table during the pivitol parts of the Heresy? There's more to power than "I punch reaaal guud".

After the initial split, how many successor chapters know their origins? Generally, they are formed from the tithes of geneseed, not a direct calving from a parent chapter. It seems to me that it would behove the HLoT to keep this secret to stop legion building, and help prevent split loyalties.

Is being an “unknown” the norm?

 Nevelon wrote:
After the initial split, how many successor chapters know their origins? Generally, they are formed from the tithes of geneseed, not a direct calving from a parent chapter. It seems to me that it would behove the HLoT to keep this secret to stop legion building, and help prevent split loyalties.

Is being an “unknown” the norm?

It is not. Most chapters know their progenitor. So Salamanders are unusual for not having known successors an no reason is given for it.

 Nevelon wrote:
After the initial split, how many successor chapters know their origins? Generally, they are formed from the tithes of geneseed, not a direct calving from a parent chapter. It seems to me that it would behove the HLoT to keep this secret to stop legion building, and help prevent split loyalties.

Is being an “unknown” the norm?

No knowing who you're from is pretty standard. Lots of them still revere their Primarch as well. Funnily enough despite being the one to try and stop Legion building that leaves Guilliman as the second most likely to get a Legion to command.

 Nevelon wrote:
After the initial split, how many successor chapters know their origins? Generally, they are formed from the tithes of geneseed, not a direct calving from a parent chapter. It seems to me that it would behove the HLoT to keep this secret to stop legion building, and help prevent split loyalties.

Is being an “unknown” the norm?

it'd make sense but apparently thats not the norm no. we don't really know how new marine chapters are founded, how leadership is decided etc. it'd be really nice to see a WD article detailing that out

I think there's also a pretty sincere difference between successors who know about and are raised with the culture of their progenitors, and ones who are far off the mark. Like, yeah, the Mortifactors are quite different from the Ultramarines, but their culture still cares that they're related. Whereas, say, the Lamenters may or may not care that much about Sanguinius' legacy or other descendants they're gene-kin with.

So it's entirely plausible that, say, the Storm Giants ARE successors, but don't really have much interest one way or another with the Promethean Cult. For their part, Salamanders might also not care that much, since the Cult seems to be pretty much intertwined with being of Nocturne. Since they are, unlikely most Astartes, a part and parcel of their source civilization and inclined to care about it more than as simply a recruitment ground, I can see them not being very fussed about what other chapters are up to.

Consider, also, that it's sometimes suggested that the literal black skin and glowing red eyes has something to do with the gene seed and it reacting to Nocturne's radiation. For all we know, their geneseed might mostly be unremarkable in other conditions, and so any number of successors wouldn't have any prominent physical links.

Longstrider wrote:

So it's entirely plausible that, say, the Storm Giants ARE successors, but don't really have much interest one way or another with the Promethean Cult. For their part, Salamanders might also not care that much, since the Cult seems to be pretty much intertwined with being of Nocturne. Since they are, unlikely most Astartes, a part and parcel of their source civilization and inclined to care about it more than as simply a recruitment ground, I can see them not being very fussed about what other chapters are up to.

Consider, also, that it's sometimes suggested that the literal black skin and glowing red eyes has something to do with the gene seed and it reacting to Nocturne's radiation. For all we know, their geneseed might mostly be unremarkable in other conditions, and so any number of successors wouldn't have any prominent physical links.

This makes the most sense. I think that Primaris whom had not been to Nocturne yet would lack the reactions to the irradiated planet. So when they get out of the Overlord or Thunderhawk planetside their natural protections would kick in and bam, coal skin and eyes flowing like forged metal.

it's also possiable salamander geneseed is more vunerable to various planetary radition imposing mutations thus they mutate more to adapt to their homeworld, hence sucessors are harder to pin down

BrianDavion wrote:
it's also possiable salamander geneseed is more vunerable to various planetary radition imposing mutations thus they mutate more to adapt to their homeworld, hence sucessors are harder to pin down

I could see that working. Black dragons homeworld could be similar in radiation.

Are there successor chapters based on Salamander geneseed? Very likely. But there are no confirmed/accepted successors. From a fluff standpoint, the excuse that they're too small never sat well with me, but there are other fluff reasons that totally jive. 10K years is more than enough time for even a single marine's worth of tithed geneseed to be used to make multiple chapters.

Salamanders rejecting successors makes a lot of sense. One of their big deals is self reliance, so I could completely buy them expecting any successors to stand on their own, without relying on the name and history of a chapter they aren't a part of. Basically, if you're a successor worthy of claiming Salamander heritage, you shouldn't feel the need to do so, and if you feel you have to claim that heritage to prop yourself up, you aren't worthy of it.

There's also the fact that they were exempted from splitting up into chapters, which has never officially been changed. So they're still technically a legion despite operating as a chapter. There may be a bit of stubborn denial in there, thinking "We were never ordered or obligated to have successors, so we don't."

Real world, it serves as a way to make the chapter and any (unofficial) successors unique in their own way. Ultramarines have their numerous copies, Imperial Fists have successors with storied and interconnected history, Dark Angels have a secret chain of command, Blood Angels successors have to deal with their curse in their own individual ways, and Salamanders are all small, distinct, and unrelated culturally.

If they truly don't have successors, they are one of the few first founding chapters/ legions that actually went along with the intent of codex reforms. To not have to many marines under one command.

The Dark Angels didn't break up, the Space Wolves flaunt it as much as they can and the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists had back up plans to reform as legion if things got bad enough.

The Ultramarines themselves also kinda flaunted the rules and that was before Bobby G got back and founded what amounts to a new legion under his command.

It's kinda ironic that the only founding chapters to obey the codex where those that were so banged up at the end of heresy that they barely could split them selves up, with the White Scars seeming to be kinda in the middle.

The Dark Angels didn't break up,

There’s never been any GW publication reporting that Azrael has ever appointed a Dark Angel to be master of the Angels of Absolution, or any other successor. There’s nothing to suggest that he could and everything to suggest that he can’t, and nor is there any suggestion that his predecessors can or did.

This the laziest and an uncompelling meme.

pelicaniforce wrote:

The Dark Angels didn't break up,

There’s never been any GW publication reporting that Azrael has ever appointed a Dark Angel to be master of the Angels of Absolution, or any other successor. There’s nothing to suggest that he could and everything to suggest that he can’t, and nor is there any suggestion that his predecessors can or did.

This the laziest and an uncompelling meme.

The dark angels are broken up. They just maintain closer ties to there successors and "could" be summoned to fight as a United force. Of course that could is very quiet.

The Unforgiven chapters are unified closer than other successors. The last wall protocol is similar but that a last ditch emergancy, enemies at a gate option. Vs a low-key tactical and strategic links.

An attempted assassination of Gulliman would be interesting. I mean the Assassin temples have been contracted to go after Primarchs before, you think that the records of those attempts would be still kept around in their vaults just in case. Also wasn’t there a raven guard marine would tried to snipe Fulgrim? I know he failed but why? Was it a clean shot or did he just wing him, or was there a force field? I get the feeling from the 30k boom where they tried to assassinate Horus that a lot of the worry about it being possible wasn’t the fact that Horus was a Demi-god it was getting past all of his security. Also let’s not forget that one time when a bunch of undercover marines with bolters almost took out Gulliman in his own palace during the Heresy. Assassination seems to definetly be possible, it’s just a matter of being in the right place and getting guilliman to be relatively vulnerable. If enough people around him were convinced the Imeprium would be better off without him, I could see it being a real threat.

 agurus1 wrote:
An attempted assassination of Gulliman would be interesting. I mean the Assassin temples have been contracted to go after Primarchs before, you think that the records of those attempts would be still kept around in their vaults just in case. Also wasn’t there a raven guard marine would tried to snipe Fulgrim? I know he failed but why? Was it a clean shot or did he just wing him, or was there a force field? I get the feeling from the 30k boom where they tried to assassinate Horus that a lot of the worry about it being possible wasn’t the fact that Horus was a Demi-god it was getting past all of his security. Also let’s not forget that one time when a bunch of undercover marines with bolters almost took out Gulliman in his own palace during the Heresy. Assassination seems to definetly be possible, it’s just a matter of being in the right place and getting guilliman to be relatively vulnerable. If enough people around him were convinced the Imeprium would be better off without him, I could see it being a real threat.

I believe it was Nycona Sharrowkin (sp?) who put a bullet through Fulgrim's skull. Can't remember how he survived it, probably Fabius Bile involved. The shot however, was bang on target.

pelicaniforce wrote:

The Dark Angels didn't break up,

There’s never been any GW publication reporting that Azrael has ever appointed a Dark Angel to be master of the Angels of Absolution, or any other successor. There’s nothing to suggest that he could and everything to suggest that he can’t, and nor is there any suggestion that his predecessors can or did.

This the laziest and an uncompelling meme.

Well like wolfy wolf, failbaddon and the idea oldcrons are metal nids it will never die.

 Reavsie wrote:

 agurus1 wrote:
An attempted assassination of Gulliman would be interesting. I mean the Assassin temples have been contracted to go after Primarchs before, you think that the records of those attempts would be still kept around in their vaults just in case. Also wasn’t there a raven guard marine would tried to snipe Fulgrim? I know he failed but why? Was it a clean shot or did he just wing him, or was there a force field? I get the feeling from the 30k boom where they tried to assassinate Horus that a lot of the worry about it being possible wasn’t the fact that Horus was a Demi-god it was getting past all of his security. Also let’s not forget that one time when a bunch of undercover marines with bolters almost took out Gulliman in his own palace during the Heresy. Assassination seems to definetly be possible, it’s just a matter of being in the right place and getting guilliman to be relatively vulnerable. If enough people around him were convinced the Imeprium would be better off without him, I could see it being a real threat.

I believe it was Nycona Sharrowkin (sp?) who put a bullet through Fulgrim's skull. Can't remember how he survived it, probably Fabius Bile involved. The shot however, was bang on target.

The very first combined assasian team was sent after Horus, it's obviously possible but difficult and one did kill kurze but he let them and even removed his guards.

It comes under possible but difficult and very much requires careful circumstances. If you catch them off guard and in armoured it may be possible. Catching one in armour and alert is always gonna fail.