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HoundsofDemos wrote:

Of the remain post Heresy, who would you have picked to put the pieces back together.

The Senate Imperialis composed of normal humans. The Primarchs and Space Marines should have been stripped of any political authority. At this point it should have been clear that those superpowered man-babies with inflated egos had caused enough damage already.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

You do realise that people other than Primarchs and other superhumans do exist in the setting? It is understandable if you forgot, GW seems to do so too.

Of the remain post Heresy, who would you have picked to put the pieces back together. In no particular order of the loyalist

Sang- Dead
Russ-
[primarchs]

A heroic human like a 30k predecessor to Macharius or Thor would have done it. GW didn’t write about anyone like that, they wrote about primaries because those are the products that people were already buying. They’re a victim of their own marketing. All they HH books from BL and FW are pretty mercenary. The Index Astartes articles in white dwarf are pretty on the nose for that matter.

pelicaniforce wrote:
A heroic human like a 30k predecessor to Macharius or Thor would have done it.

You mean like all the ones that were pretty much dead by the end of the Siege of Terra? The reason we hear about Primarchs and Custodes heroes post Horus is because they're the ones that actually survived. Ollanius Pius is only famous BECAUSE he died, after all.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

No, but the ones with strength of will to run the Imperium, were.

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Of the remain post Heresy, who would you have picked to put the pieces back together.

The Senate Imperialis composed of normal humans. The Primarchs and Space Marines should have been stripped of any political authority. At this point it should have been clear that those superpowered man-babies with inflated egos had caused enough damage already.

Giving the Highlords track record vs Bobby G, Bobby G has my vote. He was a dictator in the roman sense of the word, it's likely that he would have turned it over at some point but short term the IOM needed strong central leadership.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

you act like Gulliman taking over is some new idea of BL's. the lore of gulliman taking over the IoM after the heresy is from the codexes and is as I understand it pretty old info

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

you act like Gulliman taking over is some new idea of BL's. the lore of gulliman taking over the IoM after the heresy is from the codexes and is as I understand it pretty old info

Yes, his hilarious hypocrisy is indeed ancient fluff. He orders his brothers brothers to break the legions so that no one man would command such might... and then takes over running the entire military of the Imperium. (Though not the entire Imperium itself, at least de jure. He was 'just' one of the High Lords.)

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all normal humans in the Imperium were not dead... We just don't hear about them due the BL authors being unable ro conceive anyone without superpowes having agency.

you act like Gulliman taking over is some new idea of BL's. the lore of gulliman taking over the IoM after the heresy is from the codexes and is as I understand it pretty old info

Yes, his hilarious hypocrisy is indeed ancient fluff. He orders his brothers brothers to break the legions so that no one man would command such might... and then takes over running the entire military of the Imperium. (Though not the entire Imperium itself, at least de jure. He was 'just' one of the High Lords.)

Crimson - you have stated that you don't read the novels from Black Library. You literally don't know what you're talking about.

It's pretty obvious you've read some rubbish on 1d4 chan and are now spouting said rubbish on the forum.

For someone who doesn't care enough about the lore to actually look into it, you seem to do an awful lot or arguing about it!

With the advent of Primaris it is possible that Salamanders now have enough marines to form a successor chapter

 Corennus wrote:
With the advent of Primaris it is possible that Salamanders now have enough marines to form a successor chapter

This is more or less guaranteed. In Dark Imperum they outline that the genetic defects have been ironed out.

Space Wolves now have successors - Salamanders will too.

 Ishagu wrote:

Crimson - you have stated that you don't read the novels from Black Library. You literally don't know what you're talking about.

It's pretty obvious you've read some rubbish on 1d4 chan and are now spouting said rubbish on the forum.

For someone who doesn't care enough about the lore to actually look into it, you seem to do an awful lot or arguing about it!

I do care about the background a lot. My understanding of it is not based on crappy wikis, it is based on the studio fluff, decades of it. It is really interesting to see how the lore has evolved, from Rogue Trader, to the masive retcon of the second edition, to the Index Astartes articles on WD.

To me the BL books are a separate thing. They're an interpretation. If you like them cool, but if I want to read a good novel, BL would not be my first (or fifth! ) choice.

Nor I need to read them to appreciate the background. I don't need to see Nolan's Batman films to appreciate Miller's Dark Knight comics.

And of course this was about the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the BL books haven't gotten that far and will not for years.

So why are you discussing things which aren't really detailed to any great extent in the codex?

You've formed an opinion on Guilliman's motives from the time of the scouring. The codex gives you no real insight beyond the need to limit individual powers - no one commanding a legion.

You have no grounds or basis to criticise his action. Perhaps if you read some of the relevant BL novels you'll gain more insight. Also you complain about how the lore doesn't focus on normal humans? Plenty of the recent BL novels do and they have prominent human characters, as does the Astra Militarum codex - in this respect you are wrong.

In this case (as it often is) less information is better. If we look merely at Guiliman's actions like we were reading a history book, we really cannot know his motivations. This is good as it allows multiple interpretations. Scheming, machiavellian, power-hungry Guilliman is much more interesting than the bland noble hero of BL.

So you'd prefer it if Guilliman was the exact same character as everyone else in the Imperium hierarchy?

That sounds infinitely more boring.

I seem to recall reading a version of the Second Founding fluff where breaking up the legions wasn't actually what Guilliman wanted to do, but rather it was a compromise made with the High Lords. They wanted to exterminate every last Astartes as potential traitors, and breaking up the legions into chapters was the price they demanded for allowing any Astartes to continue to exist at all.

Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read that, or even if it was official GW fluff or just some fan theory. But if that version was the truth, it would make sense of Guilliman's willingness to be a little more flexible now he's back from the dead, because he's no longer having to keep a bunch of reactionary just-post-Horus-Heresy High Lords happy and can just do what he thinks the Imperium needs right now, even if that means pretty much becoming a new Warmaster.

(Also, changing your opinion when the situation or available information changes isn't hypocrisy.)

 Ishagu wrote:
So you'd prefer it if Guilliman was the exact same character as everyone else in the Imperium hierarchy?

That sounds infinitely more boring.

I want him to fit the setting. A noblebright superhero taking over and starting to fix things is vomit-inducingly inappropriate and goes massively against the themes of 40K as it was conceived.

Clearly you don't know anything about Guilliman or the lore.
He is those things because he hails from a different, more enlightenment time.

That's what makes him more interesting and unique. A virtuous hero trying to save a corrupt, decrepit, fascistic empire.

Maybe you should read the novels detailing his mental and moral struggles in the current time. It's some of the more interesting 40k lore.
You're completely ignorant to the finer points and detail, yet lecture others as though you're informed.

One of the interesting things about the Great Crusade is that it's a positive whitewash of some pretty awful stuff. It's snuffing out civilizations, wiping out alien races, and lying to people about the nature of their universe (imperial truth, etc). Plus Guilliman isn't above setting people on fire to set an example of exactly how flamable people can be.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
With the advent of Primaris it is possible that Salamanders now have enough marines to form a successor chapter

This is more or less guaranteed. In Dark Imperum they outline that the genetic defects have been ironed out.

Space Wolves now have successors - Salamanders will too.

That sounds incredibly ******. GW seem to really enjoy taking old lore that was good and replacing it with LOOK HOW GOOD OUR PRIMARIS ARE AND HOW SMART CAWL IS!!!!!!!

 Ishagu wrote:
Clearly you don't know anything about Guilliman or the lore.
He is those things because he hails from a different, more enlightenment time.

Yes, that is the reason. Doesn't change the fact that having him there ruining the setting is a terrible idea.

That's what makes him more interesting and unique. A virtuous hero trying to save a corrupt, decrepit, fascistic empire.

If it was some normal human trying to do that while struggling against the institutional corruption and impossible odds it could be interesting. But when it is a literal demigod and everyone just fights for the change to kiss his shiny arse then it just lame beyond belief.

Maybe you should read the novels detailing his mental and moral struggles in the current time. It's some of the more interesting 40k lore.
You're completely ignorant to the finer points and detail, yet lecture others as though you're informed.

Is someone paying you to shill that trash? If the basic concept is idiotic no amount of extra detail and polishing will save it.

 Crimson wrote:
If it was some normal human trying to do that while struggling against the institutional corruption and impossible odds it could be interesting. But when it is a literal demigod and everyone just fights for the change to kiss his shiny arse then it just lame beyond belief.

The latter is not actually happening. There are hints of rising friction between Guilliman and others within the Imperium, particularly the Ecclesiarchy in the newer books. Watching Guilliman attempt to navigate the mess that the Imperium has become has been presented in an interesting way if you bother to actually read the books.

Guilliman didn’t force the other primarchs to do anything. He made the suggestion and argued for his brothers to adopt it. Russ straight out didn’t, Vulkan successfully argued he didn’t have the people to do it.

Nothing Guilliman said tipped Dorn over for it until the Imperial Navy and it’s commanders, fearful of the Legions and Astartes, fired upon the Imperial Fists. Dorn realized that he had to do it only after another civil war almost broke out.

The Imperial Fists were the only legion against the codex that was big enough after the heresy to be split.

I think Dark Imperium implied Guilliman had already given up power by the time he was chasing down Fulgrim, and I know some of the older codex lore did the same. I’ll have to look again.

 ikeulhu wrote:

The latter is not actually happening. There are hints of rising friction between Guilliman and others within the Imperium, particularly the Ecclesiarchy in the newer books. Watching Guilliman attempt to navigate the mess that the Imperium has become has been presented in an interesting way if you bother to actually read the books.

And if Guilliman wasn't a demigod with a backing of the Emperor and Custodes that sort of thing might be indeed interesting.

You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

 Crimson wrote:
And if Guilliman wasn't a demigod with a backing of the Emperor and Custodes that sort of thing might be indeed interesting.

He is a flawed demigod without 100% backing. This seems to be a common misconception by those that have not read any of the newer books. There are factions within the Imperium that do not completely accept him being backed by the Emperor just because he entered the throne room and left. No one but Guilliman and the Emperor knows exactly what happened in that meeting and there are in fact those in the Imperium that fear Guilliman is just an usurper. The entire Imperium is not falling completely in line with him, otherwise I would be in complete agreeance with you about it being boring and disruptive to the setting. I personally think showing a flawed demi-god struggling to steer the quagmire of corruption and religiosity that the Imperium has become is a good way to emphasize many of the themes of the setting in a way that is actually interesting.

Book spoiler below:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

That's a personal outlook and not an objective one. If you don't like it you're free to ignore it.

Play 30k or games set in 36k, for example.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

Yes, because a religiously inclined Inquisitor is totally going to attempt to execute a divine son of the Emperor. I think I pulled an eye muscle they rolled so hard.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

Yes, because a religiously inclined Inquisitor is totally going to attempt to execute a divine son of the Emperor. I think I pulled an eye muscle they rolled so hard.

It is because you do not understand the literary reference in question. It is reference to 'Grand Inquisitor' a story withing a story in Dostoyevsky's the Brothers Karamazov. In this story Christ returns on Earth in the sixteenth century Spain. He starts to perform miracles, but it is promptly arrested by the Catholic Church. An Inquisitor explains to him that Christ is not needed. The Church has a good thing going, and Christ cannot be allowed to upset the status quo. That is grimdark and would be perfectly applicable to 40K.

And this is why you should read real literature.