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The way things are going it could sort of get to that point. An internal war between Guilliman and the Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is potentially brewing within the current fluff, and I think it would be great if GW did go in that direction but I will also admit that they may disappointingly not get around to pushing it that far.

 ikeulhu wrote:
The way things are going it could sort of get to that point. An internal war between Guilliman and the Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is potentially brewing within the current fluff, and I think it would be great if GW did go in that direction but I will also admit that they may disappointingly not get around to pushing it that far.

'Ultima Heresy' would certainly improve this post-gathering-storm mess. I really doubt that they'd have balls to do that though.

Yeah, they may just tease us with the hint of it without ever reaching the breaking point of full on civil war. Even if they do manage the courage to go that far I suspect it will be a very slow build up to get there, but at least the hints are there and not everything is roses and rainbows with the return of Guilliman.

 Crimson wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
You haven't read it and you're telling me it's not interesting?

Wow, just wow

Because a loyalist Primarch returning in the 40K era is not a salvageable concept. If in such a situation anything besides Inquisitor Karamazov executing said Primarch happens, the setting is ruined.

Yes, because a religiously inclined Inquisitor is totally going to attempt to execute a divine son of the Emperor. I think I pulled an eye muscle they rolled so hard.

It is because you do not understand the literary reference in question. It is reference to 'Grand Inquisitor' a story withing a story in Dostoyevsky's the Brothers Karamazov. In this story Christ returns on Earth in the sixteenth century Spain. He starts to perform miracles, but it is promptly arrested by the Catholic Church. An Inquisitor explains to him that Christ is not needed. The Church has a good thing going, and Christ cannot be allowed to upset the status quo. That is grimdark and would be perfectly applicable to 40K.

And this is why you should read real literature.

Yeah there's a small amount of difference between a human performing miracles and a walking demigod that has had people visit in stasis...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah there's a small amount of difference between a human performing miracles and a walking demigod that has had people visit in stasis...

I fail to see your point. It is not like in 'the Grand Inquisitor' the Inquisitor didn't believe that the Christ was the real Second Coming. He knows it is. It just happens to be inconvenient for the Church, so it can't be allowed to happen. Similarly returning Primarchs are super inconvenient for the people currently in power, a living son of the Emperor is bad news for those whose authority relies on telling the people the will of the Emperor. It is pretty much a perfectly analogous situation.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah there's a small amount of difference between a human performing miracles and a walking demigod that has had people visit in stasis...

I fail to see your point. It is not like in 'the Grand Inquisitor' the Inquisitor didn't believe that the Christ was the real Second Coming. He knows it is. It just happens to be inconvenient for the Church, so it can't be allowed to happen. Similarly returning Primarchs are super inconvenient for the people currently in power, a living son of the Emperor is bad news for those whose authority relies on telling the people the will of the Emperor. It is pretty much a perfectly analogous situation.

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

Also, Grimdark for the SAKE of Grimdark is bad writing, as is the story you tried to connect with it.

 Crimson wrote:

I fail to see your point. It is not like in 'the Grand Inquisitor' the Inquisitor didn't believe that the Christ was the real Second Coming. He knows it is. It just happens to be inconvenient for the Church, so it can't be allowed to happen. Similarly returning Primarchs are super inconvenient for the people currently in power, a living son of the Emperor is bad news for those whose authority relies on telling the people the will of the Emperor. It is pretty much a perfectly analogous situation.

Completely agree with Crimson on this one, the comparison is actually very apt, and the existence of such a parallel is what gives me a smidgen of hope that GW will eventually take things in a similar direction. While I may be giving GW too much credit, I would be very surprised if no one at GW is aware of the opportunity to have such a great parallel within the setting.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

Can we get back to the 18th and talk about a Primarch who isnt a stick in the mud, you know, Vulkan?


The new codex surprisingly has ZERO listed and they're the only one like it.

The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

 Crimson wrote:
The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

IIRC the Black Dragons are one of the rumoured Successors and they have janky gene seed so maybe it's the Salamanders trying to distance themselves from the idea of corrupt gene seed?

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

IIRC the Black Dragons are one of the rumoured Successors and they have janky gene seed so maybe it's the Salamanders trying to distance themselves from the idea of corrupt gene seed?

Yes, that makes sense in that one specific case. But is there something wrong in all the successors they have spawned in 10 000 years? Or is there something secretly wrong with their geneseed and that's why it wasn't used (and once it was, it resulted mutants.)

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The lack of Salamander successors is a bit weird situation. Somehow there being no second founding successors for them (because there were too few of them at that point) got morphed into them not having any successors at all. It really doesn't make much sense. Of course in 10 000 years they could have easily spawned a great number of successors, and there is really no stated reason why this wouldn't have happened. Yet there are no known successors. It is only said that there are some hints that some chapters might be their successors, but if that's the case, why would it be a secret?

IIRC the Black Dragons are one of the rumoured Successors and they have janky gene seed so maybe it's the Salamanders trying to distance themselves from the idea of corrupt gene seed?

Yes, that makes sense in that one specific case. But is there something wrong in all the successors they have spawned in 10 000 years? Or is there something secretly wrong with their geneseed and that's why it wasn't used (and once it was, it resulted mutants.)

I don't know about other successors but why would you use weird gene seed for a Chapter when you have piles of the good stuff from things like smurfs and da?

pm713 wrote:

I don't know about other successors but why would you use weird gene seed for a Chapter when you have piles of the good stuff from things like smurfs and da?

There are successors for all other loyalist chapters, except Wolves where there is a specific stated reason for it. No such reason is given for Salamanders.

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I don't know about other successors but why would you use weird gene seed for a Chapter when you have piles of the good stuff from things like smurfs and da?

There are successors for all other loyalist chapters, except Wolves where there is a specific stated reason for it. No such reason is given for Salamanders.

they don't nesscarily out and out state it but it's clear that the adeptus terra prefers to use geneseed with as few mutations as possiable. Salamanders have an obvious, and visable mutation, so that might be the reason their geneseed is seldom used

BrianDavion wrote:

they don't nesscarily out and out state it but it's clear that the adeptus terra prefers to use geneseed with as few mutations as possiable. Salamanders have an obvious, and visable mutation, so that might be the reason their geneseed is seldom used

So do Raven Guard, yet they have plenty of successors. They're just super white instead of super black... This sounds like unfortunate implications to me...

In any case, if there is some reason, it is weird that it has not been stated.

Until this topic I didn't realize that they don't have any chapters that are explicitly known to be direct successors. Them not having any at the start of the splitting makes sense since they got chewed up the most but it's a little odd that a highly unstable geneseed has a legions worth of chapters (blood angels ) and the Salamanders don't.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

There is a differance between having a secure position and not being uber powerful. let's be brutally BRUTALLY honest? has GW ever given a feth about the Byzentinian intrigue on the Throne world? Does Gulliman really present a real change from the status quo in that regard? Why should we expect tons of info about Byzantiune power intrigues in the lore to start cropping up now aftter 30 years? in fact with the vaults of Terra series, watchers on the throne, and presumably rites of passage, it's only since Gulliman's return that the political angle of 40k has even been touched. (in a manner beyond "lol the Imperium is fighting itself cause politics!")

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, that makes sense in that one specific case. But is there something wrong in all the successors they have spawned in 10 000 years? Or is there something secretly wrong with their geneseed and that's why it wasn't used (and once it was, it resulted mutants.)

There's also the Storm Giants. Who also have a significant geneseed mutation issue (an overactive Biscopea). So this does seem to be a general problem with geneseed derived from Vulkan. I would assume the Imperium deliberately obfuscates the origins of such mutant successors because the Salamanders are one of the most well-regarded chapters among ordinary people. Admitting such a heroic chapter have major genetic deviancy issues would be bad PR.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Which is why Brutus could never take on Julius IRL. Too many legions under his command...

After all, Oswald was only able to do the Red Army proud because Kenedy was universally reviled amongst Americans, or something...

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Which is why Brutus could never take on Julius IRL. Too many legions under his command...

After all, Oswald was only able to do the Red Army proud because Kenedy was universally reviled amongst Americans, or something...

Well when Brutus and Oswald are as powerful as a Primarch lemme know so your point has any strength to it.

Julius Ceaser and Kennedy could be killed by a blade between the ribs or an assasin's bullet. I'm not sure eaither would stop a Primarch.

Also KILLING Gulliman is proably something that'd be seen as basicly unthinkable

BrianDavion wrote:
Julius Ceaser and Kennedy could be killed by a blade between the ribs or an assasin's bullet. I'm not sure eaither would stop a Primarch.

Also KILLING Gulliman is proably something that'd be seen as basicly unthinkable

The best way to kill Guilliman is the same as all Space Marines. Blow up their starship while they're on it.

Also, Julius Caesar was pretty damn hard to kill too! He took 23 dagger stabs, only one of them being fatal, so he obviously had a lot of hit points!

The guys that stabbed him were not the best at knife fighting - one missed him and sliced Brutus, another managed to miss so well they stabbed one of their own guys in the thigh!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The point is you're not gonna overpower someone that has the backing of SEVERAL Marine Chapters and people clinging to like zealots. Hell there's a world of difference in the Spanish Inquisition and the 40k Inquisition too. Karamazov would be thrilled at the son of the Emperor returning as would many of them to be frank. Your real world connections don't work with 40k because of how the Imperium kinda works.

"Guilliman is too powerful and awesome and everyone loves him!"

Great story, mate.

too powerful
The setting isn't fixed or anything

Gotta pick one

Which is why Brutus could never take on Julius IRL. Too many legions under his command...

After all, Oswald was only able to do the Red Army proud because Kenedy was universally reviled amongst Americans, or something...

Well when Brutus and Oswald are as powerful as a Primarch lemme know so your point has any strength to it.

1. Your point would make more sense if you were asking if Julius or Kenedy were Primarch-powerful, not their assassins.
2. How much of Horuses "Yay I'm a Primarch, that's why I'm so OP" did it take to remove Magnus and Russ from the table during the pivitol parts of the Heresy? There's more to power than "I punch reaaal guud".

After the initial split, how many successor chapters know their origins? Generally, they are formed from the tithes of geneseed, not a direct calving from a parent chapter. It seems to me that it would behove the HLoT to keep this secret to stop legion building, and help prevent split loyalties.

Is being an “unknown” the norm?

 Nevelon wrote:
After the initial split, how many successor chapters know their origins? Generally, they are formed from the tithes of geneseed, not a direct calving from a parent chapter. It seems to me that it would behove the HLoT to keep this secret to stop legion building, and help prevent split loyalties.

Is being an “unknown” the norm?

It is not. Most chapters know their progenitor. So Salamanders are unusual for not having known successors an no reason is given for it.

 Nevelon wrote:
After the initial split, how many successor chapters know their origins? Generally, they are formed from the tithes of geneseed, not a direct calving from a parent chapter. It seems to me that it would behove the HLoT to keep this secret to stop legion building, and help prevent split loyalties.

Is being an “unknown” the norm?

No knowing who you're from is pretty standard. Lots of them still revere their Primarch as well. Funnily enough despite being the one to try and stop Legion building that leaves Guilliman as the second most likely to get a Legion to command.