(Yeah there will be some sort of campaign book malrkay and yaddaa yadda supplements regarding psychic awekning nobody really cares about)
So, some of our fears appear to have been alleviated, the howling banshees does not appear to have been primarised/ynarrified in any way shape or form but rather is a full on plastic revamp. I don't know about any other CWE fans but having been searching ebay for good metals for all of our aspects I can now stop looking for banshees and take my time waiting for these to be released and get on with the rest of my army. Makes me a very happy happy table topper. I know I will be picking up at least a couple boxes (lets hope they don't come in a wake the dead type box..)
So question is, do we just get the banshees? And have to make do with that for the next XX years?
Will we see some new phoenix lords??
Are there going to resculpt PLs also??
What's the next aspects after the banshees likely to be done? (My money is on scorpions as they are very iconic)
I don't know man. I actually really like the Shrike. Think he looks like a bad man out of some sort of generic sci fi Robocop flick though... I think with a beaky helmet head swap he will look dope.. maybe ???
It does seem to have propelled Primarines into a new level of general sci fi aesthetic a tad but lets hope hes not setting the trend..(unless its your shtick...)
More importantly... I can stop wasting time and money ebaying for good condition metal aspects for now. At least for banshees.
Now to the divinations:
why banshees? it would be more reasonable to do Spiders, Spears i.e oldest aspects. I can just guess, ie maybe because they're a more canonical, face of eldar aspects; or because they need better rules more.
Phoenix Lords? At that point I am not sure anymore. Can get models, can stay Finecast, can even go into Legends.
How many more? My guess every faction will get some, so it can be just Banshees, or maybe them and 1 more aspect or something.
But then trailer has a hint on Eldar in the very end, so there is hope for more.
Yah, I’m going to need a box of those ladies. Time to put my money where my mouth is. Kept true to the classic look, doesn’t suck, must buy.
Hope the queen of the 80’s hair returns, rocking her old classic style, to lead the gals into the fray. If not, I have the old JZ in metal, but she’s a bit top heavy, so I wouldn’t mind a modern plastic. While the old sculpts held up well, I like what they can do these days when they put their minds to it.
Shadenuat wrote: Now to the divinations: why banshees? it would be more reasonable to do Spiders, Spears i.e oldest aspects. I can just guess, ie maybe because they're a more canonical, face of eldar aspects; or because they need better rules more. Phoenix Lords? At that point I am not sure anymore. Can get models, can stay Finecast, can even go into Legends. How many more? My guess every faction will get some, so it can be just Banshees, or maybe them and 1 more aspect or something.
But then trailer has a hint on Eldar in the very end, so there is hope for more.
That rune at the end is the rune for the Howling Banshees
Shadenuat wrote: Now to the divinations:
why banshees? it would be more reasonable to do Spiders, Spears i.e oldest aspects. I can just guess, ie maybe because they're a more canonical, face of eldar aspects; or because they need better rules more.
Phoenix Lords? At that point I am not sure anymore. Can get models, can stay Finecast, can even go into Legends.
How many more? My guess every faction will get some, so it can be just Banshees, or maybe them and 1 more aspect or something.
But then trailer has a hint on Eldar in the very end, so there is hope for more.
Ohh you think they will get updated rules? Or just like some sort of specialist detachment/special rule from the campaign book?
More speculations:
I hope they don't just do banshees and say: "be happy we gave you a kit... don't say we never do anything for xenos" and then go onto doing primaris/IOM for the next 2 years..
It would make sense to go whole hog and update the rest of the aspects.. I think maybe have gone for banshees because of DOW 3?
Lets hope this is the tip of an iceberg for CWE and we can get our aspects finally and enjoy some releases.
Argive wrote: I hope they don't just do banshees and say: "be happy we gave you a kit... don't say we never do anything for xenos" and then go onto doing primaris/IOM for the next 2 years
You know, like, whatever. Even if they would update Aspects at ratio of 1 aspect/2 years I would still be alive the point when all the stuff finally gets updated. At least we know that Aspects don't just get replaced by some primaris ynnari or some gak.
Nevelon wrote: Yah, I’m going to need a box of those ladies. Time to put my money where my mouth is. Kept true to the classic look, doesn’t suck, must buy.
Hope the queen of the 80’s hair returns, rocking her old classic style, to lead the gals into the fray. If not, I have the old JZ in metal, but she’s a bit top heavy, so I wouldn’t mind a modern plastic. While the old sculpts held up well, I like what they can do these days when they put their minds to it.
I am very excited. I imagine this is going to hurt the wallet pretty hard. I don't own any banshees currently as I have been struggling to snag good bargains (not for lack of bidding and trying).
I imagine they will do a DA style kit box so 5 man unit for around £23. If that's the case Ima get me at least 4 of them bastads.
My biggest worry is they will force it into new oblits style into some sort of wake the dead box set...which you will not be able to get on its own.
Fair point, but shes arguably the most encountered Phoenix Lord, with a penchant for sticking her hairpiece into everything. If there's an Imperial / Craftworld alliance brewing, it makes sense that she'd be involved.
Sigh. Another Xeno release? Why do Games-Workshop hate the Imperium so much? When are we going to get some love eh? I'm done with Games-Workshop, etc. etc...
Ah, I'm kidding of course. I'm delighted that Aspect Warriors are getting a redo, and Banshees have always been my favorite Aspect, so it's a great place to start. I feel like it's a safe bet to presume that all aspects will be getting a makeover. The only question is, how long will it take? Do you think we'll see a huge multi-week release campaign or will they be drip fed, one-at-a-time over the next couple of years?
Aaranis wrote: I don't know, they still look ugly to me. Guess it's just the Craftworlds design that doesn't suit my tastes with so many... curves.
If you prefer things more flat there are always new SoB.
Ah nice one
No I think it's just the soulstones everywhere making them look like they have the bubonic plague, and the shape of all shuriken weapons looks ridiculous to me.
Aaranis wrote: I don't know, they still look ugly to me. Guess it's just the Craftworlds design that doesn't suit my tastes with so many... curves.
If you prefer things more flat there are always new SoB.
Ah nice one
No I think it's just the soulstones everywhere making them look like they have the bubonic plague, and the shape of all shuriken weapons looks ridiculous to me.
To be fair its a pretty ridiculous weapon. It catapults shurikens… I think the stones are interesting. But some models just have soo many its a nightmare to paint. Theres one Guardian back piece that is literly covered in stones and is ridiculous.
Man It feels nice to have something to look forward to from GW.
The next aspect, if they do another, will be striking scorpions- those were the only aspects that got Kill Team rules.
I hope they do them all. Any other aspect could be done as a kill team box in order to get around the current lack of rules.
Along with the psychic awakening stuff, there are certainly going to be some model releases- we just don't know which factions will get them. The fact that the Inquisition is going to get attention strongly suggests some new models for them- it would be really hard to generate meaningful content without expanding the current range.
PenitentJake wrote: The next aspect, if they do another, will be striking scorpions- those were the only aspects that got Kill Team rules.
I hope they do them all. Any other aspect could be done as a kill team box in order to get around the current lack of rules.
Along with the psychic awakening stuff, there are certainly going to be some model releases- we just don't know which factions will get them. The fact that the Inquisition is going to get attention strongly suggests some new models for them- it would be really hard to generate meaningful content without expanding the current range.
My money is on the scorpions also but mostly because they are the most iconic.. I'm surprised they didn't do the scorpions first if anything.
I have not considered kill team to be a huge driving factor in the decision making.
I do hope we get all of them. Im actually really psyched up!! Cant wait for these to drop.
So that's what it feels like to be a marine player and have new kits on the horizon... Interesting.
I am so happy for this!
I am curious to see wether other aspects have been updated as well, and if new ones have been implemented (not impossible if, as others suggested, the plastic aspects are dual kits. Not necessary tho, just nice in case).
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah the new Shrike has a useless pretty boy vibe. If I wanted that, I'd be a fan of Blood Angels.
Luckily I still have a useable Shrike stand-in. I'm just gonna glue a pistol to the base before I get the thing painted.
Maybe you can head swap. I personally dislike other aspects of the armor that are very primaris like the ankles or the backpack, but assuming (unless I am mistaken) that you are ok with those...
BrianDavion wrote: it would be odd to do simply one aspect warrior, I bet we'll see plastics of all of em
My main concern, if that's warranted is that most Aspect Warriors suck ass right now - so it's an odd time to release them. I imagine they'll sell fine, but they've chosen one of the least-used units and I hope they don't use it to gauge interest. If a new Eldar book isn't released soon they'll have to at least put in a Swordwind style detachment in the new expansion with some rules aimed at Aspect Warriors.
Most Aspect Warriors have been as bad as marines (expensive, with one wound...die pointlessly to chaff). Howling Banshees have...two attacks. Ork Boy (half cost) can have 6-7. It's the same Space Marine dilemma of being an Elite in a horde/chaff game. Marines had some fixes...and then a new fancy book. A lot of the Aspects will need similar help to make them worth buying for the non-lore/non-grognard players.
Congrats Eldars out there, I'm very happy for you. Question is, how many organs will you need to sell for them ? As well, will the others be there or is this just a tease to hold you over for the next decade ?
Yeah I don't really see dual kits being a thing. The armours are all very different and the banshees are all chicks for starters unless I'm seeing things lol.
However if they get new load outs that would be very very cool. If you could have the entire unit with mirror swords or executioner?
That would be something to write home about. It feels like they'd sort of have to at this stage to keep up with the power creep. 1Dmg power swords don't really seem to go far these days. Not that it matters. We are getting plastic aspects so I don't even care about the rules at this stage.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: Congrats Eldars out there, I'm very happy for you. Question is, how many organs will you need to sell for them ? As well, will the others be there or is this just a tease to hold you over for the next decade ?
BrianDavion wrote: it would be odd to do simply one aspect warrior, I bet we'll see plastics of all of em
My main concern, if that's warranted is that most Aspect Warriors suck ass right now - so it's an odd time to release them. I imagine they'll sell fine, but they've chosen one of the least-used units and I hope they don't use it to gauge interest. If a new Eldar book isn't released soon they'll have to at least put in a Swordwind style detachment in the new expansion with some rules aimed at Aspect Warriors.
Most Aspect Warriors have been as bad as marines (expensive, with one wound...die pointlessly to chaff). Howling Banshees have...two attacks. Ork Boy (half cost) can have 6-7. It's the same Space Marine dilemma of being an Elite in a horde/chaff game. Marines had some fixes...and then a new fancy book. A lot of the Aspects will need similar help to make them worth buying for the non-lore/non-grognard players.
I agree this is a lil bit of a concern.
I'm doing my part and picking up a good couple boxes when these hit the shelves. I have a list with at least 10-20 banshees Id like to run. Also, while maybe not top tier competitive (and rly who cares?) the aspects are fun units. If I can get them all in plastic I will be fielding a lot of aspects.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I am so happy for this!
I am curious to see wether other aspects have been updated as well, and if new ones have been implemented (not impossible if, as others suggested, the plastic aspects are dual kits. Not necessary tho, just nice in case).
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah the new Shrike has a useless pretty boy vibe. If I wanted that, I'd be a fan of Blood Angels.
Luckily I still have a useable Shrike stand-in. I'm just gonna glue a pistol to the base before I get the thing painted.
Maybe you can head swap. I personally dislike other aspects of the armor that are very primaris like the ankles or the backpack, but assuming (unless I am mistaken) that you are ok with those...
I overall am good with the changes outside the head. Like I said though, I already have a serviceable stand-in that just needs a paintjob and a pistol on the base.
Argive wrote: Yeah I don't really see dual kits being a thing. The armours are all very different and the banshees are all chicks for starters unless I'm seeing things lol.
Aspect armour really isn't that different between Banshees/Hawks or Dragons/Reapers or Scorpions/Spiders, just head and weapon swaps. And in those particular pairings, the poses/stances are similar too.
And it would be super easy for a Banshee/Hawk kit to come with 5 female torso fronts and 2-3 Male front halves.
It absolutely could be done well with the proper sprue design. Just look at some of the newer Necron kits. Lychgaurd and Praetorians are very different yet they are they same kit
However, it still isn't likely because GW doesn't seem to do very many dual kits anymore. And when they do, it's for all new units
The first thing I thought when I saw the pic was that they're doing dual kits. With alternate head and arms, and take off the loincloth, and you just need to add wings to have a Swooping Hawk.
krazyCarl wrote: The first thing I thought when I saw the pic was that they're doing dual kits. With alternate head and arms, and take off the loincloth, and you just need to add wings to have a Swooping Hawk.
I really hope they take this as an opportunity to expand the Eldar and give us a dual kit -2+ kind of banshee
Each shrine teaches different schools of their aspect, they aren't all carbon copies of their Phoenix lords.
If they were, dark reapers would be using shuriken cannons and banshees would be carrying halberds.
And fuegan doesn't have a flamer but his exarchs can carry them.
Ergo, every aspect has the potential to produce variant schools with different weapons load outs, and different skill focuses.
Just as karandras focused on the hunter over the killer of Arya. Each aspect can put a different focus on their training and deploy squads with different uses
I sort of get it. Hence why I think the exarch weapons options could be opened up to the squad. Call me mad! Do it call me mad!!
Ok I get this might seem a bit op with every dude getting fire-pike or mirror swords... But would it though on a T3 1W 4+ platform? Those units would get pretty costly pretty quickly and T3 infantry dies to stiff breeze so you probably would only do it as a gimmick. But having an entire squad of fire dagons jumping out with Dragons breath flamers would be very fluffy imo. And cheaper than the fusion might I add!
This reveal has got me enthusiastic about getting on with it and painting up my army whatever the final form these plastic banshees/aspects will take that's for sure. Getting new kits on the horizon is awesome!
Banshees, honestly could use +1A flat. They were most balanced oddly during Index when they were 16 ppm but could fight twice in Ynnari and everything else was also more expensive. Oddly enough it worked great for them.
Banshees and me painting Red Witch from Artel W made me wonder if that ponytail in rumour engine could be... but it can't be.
Shadenuat wrote: why banshees? it would be more reasonable to do Spiders, Spears i.e oldest aspects.
I'm still confused as to why the Spears didn't get revamped when the Jetbike did.
Very good questions, but there a re many things GW does which gets me wondering about the rationale lol...
The riders themselves were metal at the time (or possibly finecast not sure)
All they had to do is throw in the fine cast sprue into the new jetbike box and print a shining spear box and sell it for £10 more. Voila here comes the £££££.
This does put the aspecst in a weird place for me. I know banshees are coming so I can happily hold of buying those but I was going to convert/get some SS and buy more metal spiders which gets me hesitating now... Maybe that was their evil plan... release one plastic aspect to get us hooked and stop people going to ebay for OOP metals thinking all of the aspects are inbound in plastic... (im only half joking here)
Argive wrote: Yeah I don't really see dual kits being a thing. The armours are all very different and the banshees are all chicks for starters unless I'm seeing things lol.
However if they get new load outs that would be very very cool. If you could have the entire unit with mirror swords or executioner?
That would be something to write home about. It feels like they'd sort of have to at this stage to keep up with the power creep. 1Dmg power swords don't really seem to go far these days. Not that it matters. We are getting plastic aspects so I don't even care about the rules at this stage.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: Congrats Eldars out there, I'm very happy for you. Question is, how many organs will you need to sell for them ? As well, will the others be there or is this just a tease to hold you over for the next decade ?
BrianDavion wrote: it would be odd to do simply one aspect warrior, I bet we'll see plastics of all of em
My main concern, if that's warranted is that most Aspect Warriors suck ass right now - so it's an odd time to release them. I imagine they'll sell fine, but they've chosen one of the least-used units and I hope they don't use it to gauge interest. If a new Eldar book isn't released soon they'll have to at least put in a Swordwind style detachment in the new expansion with some rules aimed at Aspect Warriors.
Most Aspect Warriors have been as bad as marines (expensive, with one wound...die pointlessly to chaff). Howling Banshees have...two attacks. Ork Boy (half cost) can have 6-7. It's the same Space Marine dilemma of being an Elite in a horde/chaff game. Marines had some fixes...and then a new fancy book. A lot of the Aspects will need similar help to make them worth buying for the non-lore/non-grognard players.
I agree this is a lil bit of a concern.
I'm doing my part and picking up a good couple boxes when these hit the shelves. I have a list with at least 10-20 banshees Id like to run. Also, while maybe not top tier competitive (and rly who cares?) the aspects are fun units. If I can get them all in plastic I will be fielding a lot of aspects.
Not in the organ market as of right now, I'm just happy you'll be getting the plastic aspects. So I hope they do them all even though the pain will be great I am sure. The eldar players really have waited long enough, hell ad mech became an army and bitched for a plastic transport and got it before the plastic aspects lol.
Banshee is good, But seriously need some weapon options. There is loads of cool weapons they could use, and hopefully they are not entirely monopose as a kit.
New rules would be nice as well.
Sisters look good as well, And shrike! Could not think of a worse Marine model, Glad i wont have to put that on a table anywhere D:
I fear for my wallet. However, with as long as it's taken from the announcement to release of Sisters, I feel confident that I'll have time to amass enough money so I'll only have to sell one kidney.
Crossing my fingers for the appearance of Swooping Hawks - I'm curious to see what they'll do to the wings. Maybe we'll see options for wasp-like wings for Rogue Trader era corsairs.
Weapon choices aren't just weapon choices for Aspects- it's right in the fluff. The limited choice of weapons is the aceticism and the aesthetic of the monastic order.
The weapon is a part of the "religion" or path or Aspect.
You can give the weapon better rules, or make it work better in Aspect Warrior's hands than the hands of any other Eldar. But changing them breaks both the aesthetic and the fluff that has existed for 4 decades.
That doesn't mean they won't do it (Primaris broke both), but I personally would prefer they did not.
This was the one reveal that surprised me and it was pleasant surprise. Hopefully more aspects follow in suit. Might wake my cryosleep eldars from lumber(not that non-plastic eldars were really holding me back...just too many projects to get inspired about eldars so far).
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PenitentJake wrote: Weapon choices aren't just weapon choices for Aspects- it's right in the fluff. The limited choice of weapons is the aceticism and the aesthetic of the monastic order.
The weapon is a part of the "religion" or path or Aspect.
You can give the weapon better rules, or make it work better in Aspect Warrior's hands than the hands of any other Eldar. But changing them breaks both the aesthetic and the fluff that has existed for 4 decades.
That doesn't mean they won't do it (Primaris broke both), but I personally would prefer they did not.
Well they can name the swords as "banshee swords" etc. Or just say screw it and just up the stats for them without worrying about other models with same named weapon.
PenitentJake wrote: Weapon choices aren't just weapon choices for Aspects- it's right in the fluff. The limited choice of weapons is the aceticism and the aesthetic of the monastic order.
The weapon is a part of the "religion" or path or Aspect.
You can give the weapon better rules, or make it work better in Aspect Warrior's hands than the hands of any other Eldar. But changing them breaks both the aesthetic and the fluff that has existed for 4 decades.
That doesn't mean they won't do it (Primaris broke both), but I personally would prefer they did not.
some weapons are, But banshee weapons over the years have actually been expanded a bit. Sword,axe the glave and i think one other weapon. They would use them all in training, and would like most likely be encouraged to use which they feel is best.
So why a banshee with a shiriken cannon is a no go, ones with axes or spears should not be that far out.
I would have also really like to see the option of having the sword in both hands on a model or two, its actuly very important to have a free hand in sword fighting at times.
PenitentJake wrote: Weapon choices aren't just weapon choices for Aspects- it's right in the fluff. The limited choice of weapons is the aceticism and the aesthetic of the monastic order.
The weapon is a part of the "religion" or path or Aspect.
You can give the weapon better rules, or make it work better in Aspect Warrior's hands than the hands of any other Eldar. But changing them breaks both the aesthetic and the fluff that has existed for 4 decades.
That doesn't mean they won't do it (Primaris broke both), but I personally would prefer they did not.
this isn't actually true though.
The phoenix Lords invented the aspects and they have:
Jain Zar: glaive and triskele
Maugan Ra: Shuriken cannon
Karandras: power claw and chainsword
Fuegan: firepike and axe
Baharoth: Hawk's talon and power sword
Asurmen: Dual catapults and a dire sword
NONE of them are armed with the 'sacred' weapons their aspect is associated with, and some (looking at you Maugan) don't have anything like their aspect's weapons.
The reason for this is very simple - an aspect of Khaine is a fixed philosophy but not a fixed execution. IE the Dark Reapers are the aspect of Khaine as the destroyer, but 'destroyer' doesn't equal rapid firing missile launcher. It speaks to a particular mentality of warfare, not a particular weapon.
Similarly, even the skill sets that represent an aspect are not fixed either. Arha's original scorpion aspect emphasised the murderous nature of "Khaine the Stalker". Karandras skewed more towards the patient hunter side of the aspect. But this alone shows that each exarch sees different parts of the philosophy as more or less important to representing Khaine in their aspect.
Each aspect is a religious sect that follows one aspect of the war god and within each aspect, there are a multitude of skills and fighting styles that represent him.
A banshee exarch that emphasises a whirlwind of blades might teach mirror swords (or at least dual wielding even if not the special exarch weapon set), so they have students that equip themselves like that.
Another exarch might consider the banshee scream the true killer of the aspect and thus uses augmented masks that blow the heads of their enemies off as they close with them.
The fire dragons could equally carry fusion guns as flamers, depending on the philosophical importance of the method of destruction the exarch wishes to employ.
It would totally be in keeping for the aspects to be represented by different schools of thought, each championed by a different exarch within the shrine.
I'm so happy to see the aspects getting updated, maybe I'm being overly optimistic but maybe a new autarch too?
I still think ynarri will get their own faction but it's great to see the craftworlders haven't been forgotten.
Well, looks like I have a hat to eat. I seriously thought we'd never see an Aspect - or even Classic Eldar - update and they'd all get folded into Ynnari. Of course, the annoying thing is I have a ton of the aspects in That Material already and space isnt infinite...
Also surprisingly deflated at how conservative the design is. I mean - yay, they'll fit nicely into the existing force, but ... a feeling of "is that it?" remains. Which is odd, seeing as I've been severely in love with the Aspects since the original Dwarf article.
As for a hope? Give the girls the old power sword back. The old S5 -3(?) save monster from RT/2nd. They never recovered from being nerfed to S:User in 3rd. Not sure they'll get it though.
Pilum wrote: Well, looks like I have a hat to eat. I seriously thought we'd never see an Aspect - or even Classic Eldar - update and they'd all get folded into Ynnari. Of course, the annoying thing is I have a ton of the aspects in That Material already and space isnt infinite...
Also surprisingly deflated at how conservative the design is. I mean - yay, they'll fit nicely into the existing force, but ... a feeling of "is that it?" remains. Which is odd, seeing as I've been severely in love with the Aspects since the original Dwarf article.
As for a hope? Give the girls the old power sword back. The old S5 -3(?) save monster from RT/2nd. They never recovered from being nerfed to S:User in 3rd. Not sure they'll get it though.
I got kinda similar feeling, also it's just one single model of a whole squad , so i get this feel vibe they are keeping something more in the shade (wich will end in dissapointment for sure )
Either way if it's a slow let's redo the aspects in plastics it's a welcome edition since it means the range will remain active and not phased soon.
Aspect Warriors should maintain the original weapons they have - they're not in need of fixing. Banshees never had axes beyond the Exarch (who was originally a much stronger character than the shallow husks they became in later editions). The power axe was a 2nd edition option, along with the Executioner which was a wargear card.
I actually expect they will release alternate weapons though, mainly to attract additional sales. I'm a bit sad to see Aspects released right as I've lost my love for 40K. It's probably a good thing though, as I couldn't stomach the idea of a $60 box of aspect plastics.
Massive Banshee fan! As iconic as the space marines and...omg, I'm super happy right now!
Even better news, I still have the metal Jain Zar and Banshee Exarch unassembled and unpainted. Also I did a banshee conversion which was kitbashed with a Spider Exarch, but the two combat blades were lost during a move. Hopefully something in the new range might remedy that...
Awesome news!
Edit: Could the recent rumour engine picture be Jain Zar's long pony-tail?????
It does look kind of too similar to the current metal ones; I would have liked it if they took more reference to the original Rogue Trader ones, which are still by far the best representation still.
Shadenuat wrote: Now to the divinations:
why banshees? it would be more reasonable to do Spiders, Spears i.e oldest aspects. I can just guess, ie maybe because they're a more canonical, face of eldar aspects; or because they need better rules more.
Phoenix Lords? At that point I am not sure anymore. Can get models, can stay Finecast, can even go into Legends.
How many more? My guess every faction will get some, so it can be just Banshees, or maybe them and 1 more aspect or something.
But then trailer has a hint on Eldar in the very end, so there is hope for more.
The why I find simple. Howling Banshees is one of the few elite units available in Kill Team so I am not surprised they would focus on getting Kill Team units into plastic so they can get more people hooked on plastic more easily.
One of the Rumor Engine pics does hint that we might be getting Jain Zar plastic. Does look like her hair.
I wouldn't rule it out to be honest. Even if CW is a strong army its internal balance is so crappy that people are just running a very limited amount of units when playing.
Pilum wrote: Well, looks like I have a hat to eat. I seriously thought we'd never see an Aspect - or even Classic Eldar - update and they'd all get folded into Ynnari. Of course, the annoying thing is I have a ton of the aspects in That Material already and space isnt infinite...
Also surprisingly deflated at how conservative the design is. I mean - yay, they'll fit nicely into the existing force, but ... a feeling of "is that it?" remains. Which is odd, seeing as I've been severely in love with the Aspects since the original Dwarf article.
As for a hope? Give the girls the old power sword back. The old S5 -3(?) save monster from RT/2nd. They never recovered from being nerfed to S:User in 3rd. Not sure they'll get it though.
I got kinda similar feeling, also it's just one single model of a whole squad , so i get this feel vibe they are keeping something more in the shade (wich will end in dissapointment for sure )
Either way if it's a slow let's redo the aspects in plastics it's a welcome edition since it means the range will remain active and not phased soon.
Plastic Howling Banshees can also serve a dual purpose: Provide the autarch with the Banshee helmet for conversion. I think that is a win for GW in many ways.
Otherwise I fully expect we will get all the Exarch options and maybe one banshee in a squad can have a special weapon of some sort(like the grav gun for Space Marines a few years back). This would get people to buy the new kits.
I think it would be silly to have one special weapon on a normal Banshee in a squad. Aspects follow a trend of identical weaponry with only the Exarch having something special. So I think if they added weapon options it would be something everyone would swap to. Like all Banshees in a unit getting Triskeles for example.
Also if they released a plastic Jain Zar I would preorder that in a heartbeat as I would for every Phoenix Lord that isn't Asurmen.
My main concern, if that's warranted is that most Aspect Warriors suck ass right now - so it's an odd time to release them. I imagine they'll sell fine, but they've chosen one of the least-used units and I hope they don't use it to gauge interest. If a new Eldar book isn't released soon they'll have to at least put in a Swordwind style detachment in the new expansion with some rules aimed at Aspect Warriors.
Most Aspect Warriors have been as bad as marines (expensive, with one wound...die pointlessly to chaff). Howling Banshees have...two attacks. Ork Boy (half cost) can have 6-7. It's the same Space Marine dilemma of being an Elite in a horde/chaff game. Marines had some fixes...and then a new fancy book. A lot of the Aspects will need similar help to make them worth buying for the non-lore/non-grognard players.
This is a big fear for me.
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pm713 wrote: I think it would be silly to have one special weapon on a normal Banshee in a squad. Aspects follow a trend of identical weaponry with only the Exarch having something special. So I think if they added weapon options it would be something everyone would swap to. Like all Banshees in a unit getting Triskeles for example.
Also if they released a plastic Jain Zar I would preorder that in a heartbeat as I would for every Phoenix Lord that isn't Asurmen.
Well, supposingly Eldar is one of the next projects of GW, in particular plastic aspect warriors.
It took GW a very long time to accomplish this. Not a bad move.
My main concern, if that's warranted is that most Aspect Warriors suck ass right now - so it's an odd time to release them. I imagine they'll sell fine, but they've chosen one of the least-used units and I hope they don't use it to gauge interest. If a new Eldar book isn't released soon they'll have to at least put in a Swordwind style detachment in the new expansion with some rules aimed at Aspect Warriors.
Most Aspect Warriors have been as bad as marines (expensive, with one wound...die pointlessly to chaff). Howling Banshees have...two attacks. Ork Boy (half cost) can have 6-7. It's the same Space Marine dilemma of being an Elite in a horde/chaff game. Marines had some fixes...and then a new fancy book. A lot of the Aspects will need similar help to make them worth buying for the non-lore/non-grognard players.
This is a big fear for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: I think it would be silly to have one special weapon on a normal Banshee in a squad. Aspects follow a trend of identical weaponry with only the Exarch having something special. So I think if they added weapon options it would be something everyone would swap to. Like all Banshees in a unit getting Triskeles for example.
Also if they released a plastic Jain Zar I would preorder that in a heartbeat as I would for every Phoenix Lord that isn't Asurmen.
What's wrong with Asurmen?
Nothing at all I just already have an Asurmen so any new model has to be good enough to replace the current one I already painted.
I knew I was right in converting up a Banshee for my Kill Team from an AOS Elf a couple of weeks ago. Thanks, Gee Dubs.
I'll get right on making some other plastic coversion Aspects so that GW replace more of the old kits.
I'm kidding, my Exodite forces are all gonna have weird looking units anyway, but I'm super happy to see new Craftworld Aspect models. I'm hoping this is the start of even more good things to come, looking forward to having a squard of each. I've been planning the paint schemes since getting back into the hobby a few years back.
craggy wrote: I knew I was right in converting up a Banshee for my Kill Team from an AOS Elf a couple of weeks ago. Thanks, Gee Dubs.
I'll get right on making some other plastic coversion Aspects so that GW replace more of the old kits.
Shining Spears please!
I wouldn't mind new reapers that are made like the Rogue Trader ones. Never liked the dwarf ones from 3rd edition, nor the weird head ones we currently have.
Swooping Hawks are still the 3rd ed design, so maybe they need a change more urgently than even the 2nd edition Warp Spiders, to bury any memory of 3rd edition.
That's usually how they do it when the update dated elite choices from a book into a new range (e.g. Plague Marines, Harlequins, Rubric Marines, etc..).
I'd reckon it more likely the new Banshees (assuming they get new, better rules, for a little while, at least) will be in one of the new campaign books. With luck, alongside some other Aspects in a specialist detachment.
Argive wrote: Yeah I don't really see dual kits being a thing. The armours are all very different and the banshees are all chicks for starters unless I'm seeing things lol.
However if they get new load outs that would be very very cool. If you could have the entire unit with mirror swords or executioner?
That would be something to write home about. It feels like they'd sort of have to at this stage to keep up with the power creep. 1Dmg power swords don't really seem to go far these days. Not that it matters. We are getting plastic aspects so I don't even care about the rules at this stage.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: Congrats Eldars out there, I'm very happy for you. Question is, how many organs will you need to sell for them ? As well, will the others be there or is this just a tease to hold you over for the next decade ?
BrianDavion wrote: it would be odd to do simply one aspect warrior, I bet we'll see plastics of all of em
My main concern, if that's warranted is that most Aspect Warriors suck ass right now - so it's an odd time to release them. I imagine they'll sell fine, but they've chosen one of the least-used units and I hope they don't use it to gauge interest. If a new Eldar book isn't released soon they'll have to at least put in a Swordwind style detachment in the new expansion with some rules aimed at Aspect Warriors.
Most Aspect Warriors have been as bad as marines (expensive, with one wound...die pointlessly to chaff). Howling Banshees have...two attacks. Ork Boy (half cost) can have 6-7. It's the same Space Marine dilemma of being an Elite in a horde/chaff game. Marines had some fixes...and then a new fancy book. A lot of the Aspects will need similar help to make them worth buying for the non-lore/non-grognard players.
I agree this is a lil bit of a concern.
I'm doing my part and picking up a good couple boxes when these hit the shelves. I have a list with at least 10-20 banshees Id like to run. Also, while maybe not top tier competitive (and rly who cares?) the aspects are fun units. If I can get them all in plastic I will be fielding a lot of aspects.
Not in the organ market as of right now, I'm just happy you'll be getting the plastic aspects. So I hope they do them all even though the pain will be great I am sure. The eldar players really have waited long enough, hell ad mech became an army and bitched for a plastic transport and got it before the plastic aspects lol.
Eldarsif wrote: The why I find simple. Howling Banshees is one of the few elite units available in Kill Team so I am not surprised they would focus on getting Kill Team units into plastic so they can get more people hooked on plastic more easily
Well yeah, but with this decision they do raise expectations and now everyone would go "so when is the rest of the stuff coming?".
Daba wrote: Spears would probably be a completely different look of bike to remove as much compatibility and convertibility as possible.
In general I hope the Aspects keep their existing single weapon options, but hopefully their Exarchs get at least 2 alternate weapon choices above the standard.
Although for Banshees, I could see them get a rules revamp in which the unit can take 1 Sword that is +1S AP-3 or paired Swords that are +1A AP-2. But for the purposes of dual-kitting, keep every aspect with a single weapon option allows more sprue space.
Banshees and Hawks can easily share a kit as they both have lighter armour and leaping stances. Head and Arm swaps are fairly standard, and for the Hawks, you could have Wings. 5 Female torso front halves and about 3 Male front halves gives you enough to do all Female Banshees (though males do exist in Fluff) or a mix gender unit for Hawks.
Do the same for Dragons/Reaper and Scoprions/Spiders and you've just sold 3 boxes to me. But if these are NOT dual-kits (which seems unfortunatley likely), I won't be buying any of them
pm713 wrote: Galef you seem to really like the idea of dual kitting. Why is that?
2 reasons: A) Its efficient and that pleases my OCD and B) It can give you far more bang for your buck....if you know how
As an extensive conversionist, I can see many ways to either use magnets to swap out between the units, or even just take advantage of people selling off the extra bits for great conversions. Just look at the Necron dual kits. There's great conversion option in those kits. Given that Guardians have similar armour, buying 1 Guardian Kit + 1, say 5-elf Dragon/Reaper kit could easily get you 6 Dragons AND 6 Reapers, with 3 models left for the next box
And a third reason to want Aspect Warrior dual kits in particular is that I do not need more Aspects for gaming, but would love to have 1 of each plastic Aspect just to paint and display. If they are dual kits, I only need to buy 3 boxes. If they aren't, I'll be priced out
pm713 wrote: Galef you seem to really like the idea of dual kitting. Why is that?
2 reasons:
A) Its efficient and that pleases my OCD and
B) It can give you far more bang for your buck....if you know how
As an extensive conversionist, I can see many ways to either use magnets to swap out between the units, or even just take advantage of people selling off the extra bits for great conversions. Just look at the Necron dual kits. There's great conversion option in those kits.
Given that Guardians have similar armour, buying 1 Guardian Kit + 1, say 5-elf Dragon/Reaper kit could easily get you 6 Dragons AND 6 Reapers, with 3 models left for the next box
And a third reason to want Aspect Warrior dual kits in particular is that I do not need more Aspects for gaming, but would love to have 1 of each plastic Aspect just to paint and display. If they are dual kits, I only need to buy 3 boxes. If they aren't, I'll be priced out
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Fair enough. My concern is that GW would take dual kits as an excuse to raise the price a significant amount while not leaving enough in the kit to justify it for people like me who aren't all that good at conversions.
pm713 wrote: My concern is that GW would take dual kits as an excuse to raise the price a significant amount while not leaving enough in the kit to justify it for people like me who aren't all that good at conversions.
There's always that possibility but with plastic Aspect Warriors being so anticipated, the kits are likely to be very expensive regardless of being single or dual-kitted.
However, if we look as the price of Dire Avengers ($35 for 5 models) and the Necron Lychguard/Praetorian kit ($40 for 5 much bigger models and a dual kit), I think we can agree on where the pricing in likely to fall. I'd much rather pay $40 and have options than $35 for none
pm713 wrote: My concern is that GW would take dual kits as an excuse to raise the price a significant amount while not leaving enough in the kit to justify it for people like me who aren't all that good at conversions.
There's always that possibility but with plastic Aspect Warriors being so anticipated, the kits are likely to be very expensive regardless of being single or dual-kitted.
However, if we look as the price of Dire Avengers ($35 for 5 models) and the Necron Lychguard/Praetorian kit ($40 for 5 much bigger models and a dual kit), I think we can agree on where the pricing in likely to fall. I'd much rather pay $40 and have options than $35 for none
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The age of the kit is a factor (Dire Avengers are way older than Lychguard/Praetorians), as is the two-sprue v. three-sprue question, and even then those don't always serve as predictors. Consider Sternguard Veterans v. Deathwatch Veterans; the Deathwatch are newer and have more options, and they're both two-sprue kits, but the Sternguard are $50/5 models and the Deathwatch are $35/5 models.
I'd hope the Banshees are a $35-$40/5 kit, given that GW seems to be trying to move price per model back down there (Primaris were $35/5 when the Combat Squads kits were a thing).
Agreed. And assuming they aren't dual-kits and don't include any new options (requiring new rules), we are talking about spindly little Elves, not bulky Primaris. So hopefully they kits are less than $30 per 5.
Heck, if they follow the same pattern as some DE kits, we might even see 5 for $25, even for the Jump units. Hellions are 5 Elves on skyboards for $25, so Hawks and Spiders could follow suit
Shadenuat wrote: Now to the divinations:
why banshees? it would be more reasonable to do Spiders, Spears i.e oldest aspects. I can just guess, ie maybe because they're a more canonical, face of eldar aspects; or because they need better rules more.
Phoenix Lords? At that point I am not sure anymore. Can get models, can stay Finecast, can even go into Legends.
How many more? My guess every faction will get some, so it can be just Banshees, or maybe them and 1 more aspect or something.
But then trailer has a hint on Eldar in the very end, so there is hope for more.
I guess he banshee are not selling so much and they decided to fix that with new kit. It will be cool if they fix their rules a little.
I have wild speculations, that mainly females will awaken and become pshycers - sisters, banshees... and they will probably give Necron and Tao the psychic protection they need.
Weapon choices aren't just weapon choices for Aspects- it's right in the fluff. The limited choice of weapons is the aceticism and the aesthetic of the monastic order.
The weapon is a part of the "religion" or path or Aspect.
You can give the weapon better rules, or make it work better in Aspect Warrior's hands than the hands of any other Eldar. But changing them breaks both the aesthetic and the fluff that has existed for 4 decades.
That doesn't mean they won't do it (Primaris broke both), but I personally would prefer they did not.
Exarch have extra wound and more weapons because of the fluff, he/she is totally lost on that path and is wearing the special armor. For instance banshee could leave and become avenger or dark reapers.
If they don't make these dual-kits, lets cross our fingers in hopes that each box includes options to make the Phoenix Lord associated with that Aspect.
It would be unprecedented (to my knowledge), but for each box to include 4 regular aspects + 1 Exarch/PL would be great stuff.
There is not a chance in hell they include a Phoenix Lord with those kits. If they get new "upgraded" rules, each Phoenix Lord would become a $45-50 single sprue plastic kit...that's waaaaay too much money for GW to pass up on.
I'd imagine the kit will be a single aspect (which is fine, I would only accept dual kits if absolutely necessary), 10 models (or 8-9 just to piss people off), and $55-60 a box.
Dual kits were a sacrifice Eldar players were willing to make when we were just brainstorming how we could possibly get plastic Aspect Warriors...it's absolutely not the preferred method (other than Galef). Dual kits would involve a number of design sacrifices. Also, GW isn't particularly keen on loads of spare bits/sprues with new/modern kits. I do expect a weapon option or two for the aspects (Fire Dragons may have a flamer as an option to the meltagun, etc.) - and I'd imagine a couple weapon options for the Exarchs, but yeah dual kits are extremely unlikely.
Flamers would be awesome but also would kinda make other aspects like Banshees who are ok at killing infantry in cover redundant. Since against infantry you could take Fire Dragons, and against vehicles... also Fire Dragons.
Phoenix Lords are, sadly, worse than even normal Aspect Warriors at this point (a couple are "okay"). Toughness 4 models with 2+ armour and no-invulnerable simply don't last on the tabletop, particularly when so many are armed for close combat and can no longer hide with the proliferation of anti-character units/snipers/missiles/rules flooding the game.
They are shockingly iconic models/characters though and would have potential to be superb looking.
PS: oh you can bet your ass they'll be supersized, lol.
However, the original Avatar matched the size of the Greater Daemons because it's an Eldar Greater Daemon. . . So, in light of that, I'd say it would be at a stature comparable with the GD plastics. Which means pretty much the size of the FW one, iirc.
It depends on the rules. For current rules, that little dwarf with 5 attacks is quite fitting actually. The FW Avatar, for a non-targetable buffer unit is too big.
So yeah, better proportions and slightly taller would be just fine. The way current GW plays it though, we might just see some 270 pts plastic chunk monstrosity for more of those sweet $$$.
I’m pretty sure it will be 5 models for $60, with options to make one model an exarch.
The last dual kit I remember was the Tau fire warriors/breachers. I don’t expect we’ll see dual kits for aspects, which is a shame.
It also suspect we’ll only see one clampacked Phoenix Lord, and I suspect it will be Jain Zar, as she’s the only one that I’m aware of that has been mentioned in a long while (Dawn of War III, at that).
The current Avatar is limited because it never did get a larger model (we're not counting the "meh" FW one). It used to be on par with Greater Daemons and rightfully so. They got bigger models, the Avatar didn't. Character targeting rules made this into a bit of a boon, but yeah if they give it a bigger model its stat line will have to change.
I'm completely over the moon to see this. A new plastic kit that keeps the aesthetic that Jes Goodwin perfected with his 4th edition concepts. It looks exactly how a Howling Banshee should look, although I very much also have a soft spot for the 3rd edition version and have 20 of them. It's not a Ynnari-style reimagining like I feared. It's not a slow fade into obscurity without ever getting a new kit, like I also feared. This is pretty much exactly what I wanted.
I don't need more Banshees, but I'll be buying some. Because how can I resist? And also I'd love these to sell well to send a message that there's a market for updated Aspects. I'll get at least a squad of 10. If there's alternative loadouts, maybe I'll get more than that.
Re: Alternative Weapons I feel fairly sure that GW will include alternative weapons for the squad, for these and also for the other aspects. It gives players a reason to buy more squads, and gives the diehard Swordwind collectors like myself more of a reason to buy the new models rather than just sticking with our old ones. Like I said above, if there's more loadouts, I'll buy more models. I'm fond of the traditional weapon loadouts, but as has been said in the thread already each aspect is more about a method of waging war than it is about the specific weapons that they use.
I hope that if they do introduce alternative weapons, they stick with the current pattern - you make one weapon choice for all of the models in the squad and have the option to give something special to the Exarch. To me in many ways that's more integral to the Eldar style than the exact weapons themselves. I also hope that the traditional Exarch weapons stay exclusive to the Exarchs. While it would certainly boost the aspects if every model could take the Exarch weapons, I'd rather boost them by improving the power swords, fusion guns, lasblasters etc. and keeping Executioners, Firepikes, Hawk's Talons etc. in the hands of the Exarchs. It just makes the Exarchs that much cooler that they get access to this gear that nobody else can use. And if they want to power up, say the fusion guns, well, they can power up the firepike even more and make the Exarch suitably awesome.
Re:Single or Dual Kits I'm pretty certain these aren't a dual kit. For one thing, there's a Howling Banshee rune sculpted on the right thigh. To me the ideal situation is single kits, so long as we get all of the aspects. I feel that dual kits was only ever a compromise idea because most of us thought that doing a plastic kit for each type of aspect was an unlikely number of separate kits. Although there are pairings that could work as dual kits (and have been discussed to death), I don't like that there would have to be some compromises made (however small) on the armour design to make that happen. They'd also probably use the fact that there was more stuff on the sprues to jack up the price. And while it would be possible to kitbash the spare parts onto guardians, it's not something I would do because it would always feel like a compromise to me, and even a good kitbash job wouldn't be nearly as good as the proper aspect warriors. Where aspect warriors are involved, no compromises!
That's usually how they do it when the update dated elite choices from a book into a new range (e.g. Plague Marines, Harlequins, Rubric Marines, etc..).
Those units were always ripe for expansion out into something separate from the Codexes that originally hosted them, but Aspect Warriors are at the core of what Craftworlds are. To use the Eldar example there - Harlequins are an entirely separate group that often visit the Craftworlds and might fight alongside them from time to time. Back in the day it made sense to stick them in the Craftworlds Codex, but they always felt like something a bit different and it made sense that they got their own Codex. Ripping Aspect Warriors out of the Craftworlds Codex and putting them into their own book makes no thematic sense whatsoever.
Elbows wrote: The current Avatar is limited because it never did get a larger model (we're not counting the "meh" FW one). It used to be on par with Greater Daemons and rightfully so. They got bigger models, the Avatar didn't. Character targeting rules made this into a bit of a boon, but yeah if they give it a bigger model its stat line will have to change.
You wash your mouth out with soap! The FW Avatar with sword is one of the finest models they've ever done! It's absolutely the centrepiece of my collection.
Aaranis wrote: I don't know, they still look ugly to me. Guess it's just the Craftworlds design that doesn't suit my tastes with so many... curves.
If you prefer things more flat there are always new SoB.
Ah nice one
No I think it's just the soulstones everywhere making them look like they have the bubonic plague, and the shape of all shuriken weapons looks ridiculous to me.
To be fair its a pretty ridiculous weapon. It catapults shurikens… I think the stones are interesting. But some models just have soo many its a nightmare to paint. Theres one Guardian back piece that is literly covered in stones and is ridiculous.
Man It feels nice to have something to look forward to from GW.
Not every 'lump' on an Eldar model is a gemstone. I think it was our overlord Jes himself that said only the ones which have an obvious setting (a rim around them) are actually supposed to be stones. The rest are just part of the eldar armour/technology design - little sensor pods and other similar stuff. I'm surprised at the folks who paint every little bump like it's a gemstone, because even if they do them well I think the overall effect of a model covered in so many gemstones looks pretty pants. They look much better painted the same colour as the rest of the model.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah the new Shrike has a useless pretty boy vibe. If I wanted that, I'd be a fan of Blood Angels.
Luckily I still have a useable Shrike stand-in. I'm just gonna glue a pistol to the base before I get the thing painted.
chances are if he's not got a option to put his helmet on him, then it'll be an easy mod to make
If his helmet can go on normally then I'll probably pick him up
GW's been pretty good about putting helmet or no helmet opions on their marine chars of late
Did Khan have a helmet? Tigurius doesn't have one because space magic (at least I'm better at painting faces now). So I don't have a lot of faith in this guy having a helmet or body guards either for that matter. Granted they say he's the first ever beaky, I don't know if that means we'll see future beakys or not. I really want to see body guards for this guy though, plus he's a chapter master unlike the khan. I just like seeing new models in general lol
Aaranis wrote: I don't know, they still look ugly to me. Guess it's just the Craftworlds design that doesn't suit my tastes with so many... curves.
If you prefer things more flat there are always new SoB.
Ah nice one
No I think it's just the soulstones everywhere making them look like they have the bubonic plague, and the shape of all shuriken weapons looks ridiculous to me.
To be fair its a pretty ridiculous weapon. It catapults shurikens… I think the stones are interesting. But some models just have soo many its a nightmare to paint. Theres one Guardian back piece that is literly covered in stones and is ridiculous.
Man It feels nice to have something to look forward to from GW.
Not every 'lump' on an Eldar model is a gemstone. I think it was our overlord Jes himself that said only the ones which have an obvious setting (a rim around them) are actually supposed to be stones. The rest are just part of the eldar armour/technology design - little sensor pods and other similar stuff. I'm surprised at the folks who paint every little bump like it's a gemstone, because even if they do them well I think the overall effect of a model covered in so many gemstones looks pretty pants. They look much better painted the same colour as the rest of the model.
That's interesting to hear, Bellerophon - do you know when he said that?
Bellerophon wrote: I'm completely over the moon to see this. A new plastic kit that keeps the aesthetic that Jes Goodwin perfected with his 4th edition concepts. It looks exactly how a Howling Banshee should look, although I very much also have a soft spot for the 3rd edition version and have 20 of them. It's not a Ynnari-style reimagining like I feared. It's not a slow fade into obscurity without ever getting a new kit, like I also feared. This is pretty much exactly what I wanted.
I don't need more Banshees, but I'll be buying some. Because how can I resist? And also I'd love these to sell well to send a message that there's a market for updated Aspects. I'll get at least a squad of 10. If there's alternative loadouts, maybe I'll get more than that.
Re: Alternative Weapons I feel fairly sure that GW will include alternative weapons for the squad, for these and also for the other aspects. It gives players a reason to buy more squads, and gives the diehard Swordwind collectors like myself more of a reason to buy the new models rather than just sticking with our old ones. Like I said above, if there's more loadouts, I'll buy more models. I'm fond of the traditional weapon loadouts, but as has been said in the thread already each aspect is more about a method of waging war than it is about the specific weapons that they use.
I hope that if they do introduce alternative weapons, they stick with the current pattern - you make one weapon choice for all of the models in the squad and have the option to give something special to the Exarch. To me in many ways that's more integral to the Eldar style than the exact weapons themselves. I also hope that the traditional Exarch weapons stay exclusive to the Exarchs. While it would certainly boost the aspects if every model could take the Exarch weapons, I'd rather boost them by improving the power swords, fusion guns, lasblasters etc. and keeping Executioners, Firepikes, Hawk's Talons etc. in the hands of the Exarchs. It just makes the Exarchs that much cooler that they get access to this gear that nobody else can use. And if they want to power up, say the fusion guns, well, they can power up the firepike even more and make the Exarch suitably awesome.
Re:Single or Dual Kits I'm pretty certain these aren't a dual kit. For one thing, there's a Howling Banshee rune sculpted on the right thigh. To me the ideal situation is single kits, so long as we get all of the aspects. I feel that dual kits was only ever a compromise idea because most of us thought that doing a plastic kit for each type of aspect was an unlikely number of separate kits. Although there are pairings that could work as dual kits (and have been discussed to death), I don't like that there would have to be some compromises made (however small) on the armour design to make that happen. They'd also probably use the fact that there was more stuff on the sprues to jack up the price. And while it would be possible to kitbash the spare parts onto guardians, it's not something I would do because it would always feel like a compromise to me, and even a good kitbash job wouldn't be nearly as good as the proper aspect warriors. Where aspect warriors are involved, no compromises!
That's usually how they do it when the update dated elite choices from a book into a new range (e.g. Plague Marines, Harlequins, Rubric Marines, etc..).
Those units were always ripe for expansion out into something separate from the Codexes that originally hosted them, but Aspect Warriors are at the core of what Craftworlds are. To use the Eldar example there - Harlequins are an entirely separate group that often visit the Craftworlds and might fight alongside them from time to time. Back in the day it made sense to stick them in the Craftworlds Codex, but they always felt like something a bit different and it made sense that they got their own Codex. Ripping Aspect Warriors out of the Craftworlds Codex and putting them into their own book makes no thematic sense whatsoever.
Elbows wrote: The current Avatar is limited because it never did get a larger model (we're not counting the "meh" FW one). It used to be on par with Greater Daemons and rightfully so. They got bigger models, the Avatar didn't. Character targeting rules made this into a bit of a boon, but yeah if they give it a bigger model its stat line will have to change.
You wash your mouth out with soap! The FW Avatar with sword is one of the finest models they've ever done! It's absolutely the centrepiece of my collection.
Aaranis wrote: I don't know, they still look ugly to me. Guess it's just the Craftworlds design that doesn't suit my tastes with so many... curves.
If you prefer things more flat there are always new SoB.
Ah nice one
No I think it's just the soulstones everywhere making them look like they have the bubonic plague, and the shape of all shuriken weapons looks ridiculous to me.
To be fair its a pretty ridiculous weapon. It catapults shurikens… I think the stones are interesting. But some models just have soo many its a nightmare to paint. Theres one Guardian back piece that is literly covered in stones and is ridiculous.
Man It feels nice to have something to look forward to from GW.
Not every 'lump' on an Eldar model is a gemstone. I think it was our overlord Jes himself that said only the ones which have an obvious setting (a rim around them) are actually supposed to be stones. The rest are just part of the eldar armour/technology design - little sensor pods and other similar stuff. I'm surprised at the folks who paint every little bump like it's a gemstone, because even if they do them well I think the overall effect of a model covered in so many gemstones looks pretty pants. They look much better painted the same colour as the rest of the model.
Fair point. If you look at the DOW 3 models everything seems to be gems so maybe that's where this idea came from?
I agree with you that you have to pick your battles with the gems! lol
All in all It seems most people are in agreement,and this hit the spot just right. They didint mess with the aesthetic of the unit, or the identity of it. It looks like CWE are getting the CSM treatement rather than the Primaris treatement (which would likely mean ynarrification for us..) and I am glad for it. I get some people were clamoring for "Bigger, badder, more ynarri and unique" but for me, if it ain't broke, dont fix it! And the current banshees weren't broken, they were garbage fine cast. For any relative new comers with incomplete Eldar armies this is very good.
Re: the pricing I think people should epxpect squad of 5 for a bit more than the DAs. The DA kit went from 10 models to 5 models and price stayed the same so they know what they can get away with. I don't think its realistic to expect 10 man squads (because if you can field a min of 5.. why would GW sell you more than 5?).
But to be honest this is a bit of a non-issue for me. As someone who does not have an old collection filled with previous gen banshees, I'm really thrilled to finally have something to look forward to with my army, and quite frankly, they can take their sweet time doing it as long as they do it and let us know they are doing it. Maybe its a sign of things to come, and a change to their philosophy.
It's long been a facet of Eldar design, dating back to the original WD articles, etc. I think there are scribbled notes in Jes Goodwin's limited Eldar books as well. In short, yes, a bunch of the raised portions on Eldar armour are sensors, small storage compartments, or components of the armour, etc.
A normal Eldar warrior only has one 'soul stone', the rest which are painted as gems are simply control gems...or...buttons basically.
Aaranis wrote: I don't know, they still look ugly to me. Guess it's just the Craftworlds design that doesn't suit my tastes with so many... curves.
If you prefer things more flat there are always new SoB.
Ah nice one
No I think it's just the soulstones everywhere making them look like they have the bubonic plague, and the shape of all shuriken weapons looks ridiculous to me.
To be fair its a pretty ridiculous weapon. It catapults shurikens… I think the stones are interesting. But some models just have soo many its a nightmare to paint. Theres one Guardian back piece that is literly covered in stones and is ridiculous.
Man It feels nice to have something to look forward to from GW.
Not every 'lump' on an Eldar model is a gemstone. I think it was our overlord Jes himself that said only the ones which have an obvious setting (a rim around them) are actually supposed to be stones. The rest are just part of the eldar armour/technology design - little sensor pods and other similar stuff. I'm surprised at the folks who paint every little bump like it's a gemstone, because even if they do them well I think the overall effect of a model covered in so many gemstones looks pretty pants. They look much better painted the same colour as the rest of the model.
That's interesting to hear, Bellerophon - do you know when he said that?
I could remember seeing it somewhere, tried to find it again a couple of times and for the life of me couldn't quite remember where I saw it.. but today I found it again!
The gemstones on Eldar models have become an integral part of the look of the race, tied to the Fall, the birth of Slaanesh and how they cheat death.
Not all the bumps and lumps on Eldar technology is, in fact, a gemstone though. Some are simply blisters of electronics and hardware, as Jes Goodwin explains: “Every blip on an Eldar model doesn’t have to be painted like a gem – they’re not all gems. If it’s got a setting around it, it’s a gem. If it’s hasn’t, it’s a blip.” But painters who adore a challenge fret not, “It’s not a hard and fast rule.”
The studio clearly agrees with that position - see the models in the Codex and on the webstore - the 'Eavy Metal paintjobs on just about every model paint most of the bumps the same colour as the rest of the armour, and only do the ones in a setting as gems. There's one or two exceptions, like a couple of blips on the Wraithlord that they paint as gems, but mostly they stick to the blips being painted the same as the armour.
Elbows wrote: Phoenix Lords are, sadly, worse than even normal Aspect Warriors at this point (a couple are "okay"). Toughness 4 models with 2+ armour and no-invulnerable simply don't last on the tabletop, particularly when so many are armed for close combat and can no longer hide with the proliferation of anti-character units/snipers/missiles/rules flooding the game.
They are shockingly iconic models/characters though and would have potential to be superb looking.
PS: oh you can bet your ass they'll be supersized, lol.
Elbows wrote: Phoenix Lords are, sadly, worse than even normal Aspect Warriors at this point (a couple are "okay"). Toughness 4 models with 2+ armour and no-invulnerable simply don't last on the tabletop, particularly when so many are armed for close combat and can no longer hide with the proliferation of anti-character units/snipers/missiles/rules flooding the game.
They are shockingly iconic models/characters though and would have potential to be superb looking.
PS: oh you can bet your ass they'll be supersized, lol.
They need to be T5 again, or even T6.
That was back in 2nd, before the statlines got flattened by 3rd. Most marine characters were also T5 back then as well. I’d like to see them be more survivable, but a T boost is the wrong way to do it IMHO.
True enough, but I think for what they are (basically living armour) T5 or 6 isn't off the mark considering Primarchs are similar and by background they really take the position as Eldar Primarchs.
Exarch fluff has been diluted so we don't know what they are anymore, but the original, real fluff for an Exarch would fit the current Phoenix Lord statline.
Yeah. The Exarchs and Phoenix Lords should be much more powerful that they currently are. I loved how in the 2nd edition they truly felt like mythic heroes.
And in other editions they sucked even if they had "mythic" stats.
In this edition at least they are cheap enough you can field them for less that 200 pts. Cheap specialized HQs with cool rules are easier to balance and easier to run in the army, because even if they're kinda underwhelming, they don't take that many points away.
In the Craftworlds army, whenever you take an HQ, you always compare it to Farseer; if it's more expensive than a Farseer, it should do something very different, otherwise you're better with another Farseer, cheap Autarch or warlock/spiritseer.
In this edition at least they are cheap enough you can field them for less that 200 pts. Cheap specialized HQs with cool rules are easier to balance and easier to run in the army, because even if they're kinda underwhelming, they don't take that many points away.
I really don't care. I want the Phoenix Lords to be utterly terrifying primarch-level mythic heroes, and if that means that they need to be Lords of War and cost over three hundred points, so be it!
The gemstones on Eldar models have become an integral part of the look of the race, tied to the Fall, the birth of Slaanesh and how they cheat death.
Not all the bumps and lumps on Eldar technology is, in fact, a gemstone though. Some are simply blisters of electronics and hardware, as Jes Goodwin explains: “Every blip on an Eldar model doesn’t have to be painted like a gem – they’re not all gems. If it’s got a setting around it, it’s a gem. If it’s hasn’t, it’s a blip.” But painters who adore a challenge fret not, “It’s not a hard and fast rule.”
The studio clearly agrees with that position - see the models in the Codex and on the webstore - the 'Eavy Metal paintjobs on just about every model paint most of the bumps the same colour as the rest of the armour, and only do the ones in a setting as gems. There's one or two exceptions, like a couple of blips on the Wraithlord that they paint as gems, but mostly they stick to the blips being painted the same as the armour.
That's awesome - thank you.
Been slowly putting together some Eldar stuff - picked up a box of Jetbikes today - but hadn't settled on a scheme. Having this steer about all the random bumps will make painting them easier when I do settle on one (yeah, going the not-a-Craftworld-with-rules route - trickier to come up with a scheme I like than I thought).
In this edition at least they are cheap enough you can field them for less that 200 pts. Cheap specialized HQs with cool rules are easier to balance and easier to run in the army, because even if they're kinda underwhelming, they don't take that many points away.
I really don't care. I want the Phoenix Lords to be utterly terrifying primarch-level mythic heroes, and if that means that they need to be Lords of War and cost over three hundred points, so be it!
He's got a point. Pheonix Lords are mythic heroes and should be outclassing most HQs by a fair margin (and should be leading a horde of their own aspect, not popping up on their own).
In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.
Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.
Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.
In this edition at least they are cheap enough you can field them for less that 200 pts. Cheap specialized HQs with cool rules are easier to balance and easier to run in the army, because even if they're kinda underwhelming, they don't take that many points away.
I really don't care. I want the Phoenix Lords to be utterly terrifying primarch-level mythic heroes, and if that means that they need to be Lords of War and cost over three hundred points, so be it!
He's got a point. Pheonix Lords are mythic heroes and should be outclassing most HQs by a fair margin (and should be leading a horde of their own aspect, not popping up on their own).
To be fair, Marine characters are also made up in the fluff as walking heroes, masters of the battlefied, and feared by all. Granted that Phoenix Lords have a better claim to that status, but they are far from the only thing on the table that doesn’t live up to their own legend.
I’d personally like to keep them lower cost and playable, rather than the LoW level. But if they re-did them at primarch level, I’d be first in line to carve a bloody trail across the table with Jain Zar.
To be fair, Marine characters are also made up in the fluff as walking heroes, masters of the battlefied, and feared by all. Granted that Phoenix Lords have a better claim to that status, but they are far from the only thing on the table that doesn’t live up to their own legend.
My main army is Marines, but I think the Phoenix Lords should easily outclass any non-Primarch marine. They're ten thousand year old magical superbeings. The marine heroes should be on par with the Exarchs (which should be far more powerful than they currently are.)
Actually I take that back, not really a rant...but...a critique of current Phoenix Lords?
Early in 8th edition, Phoenix Lords were decidedly okay. They have not, in any way, kept up with the power creep of the game. They only recently finally had some points adjustments (before they were kinda poor...and expensive). As many people have pointed out, a Phoenix Lord is still 125-175 points or so, and that's more than a squad of their own Aspects in many cases - while rarely bringing enough to justify their cost.
Asurmen: One vaguely worth considering. Why? Because he has an invulnerable save, and can grant one to nearby Aspects. His sword is quite decent, but his guns...he gets four shots of a shuriken catapult. That's akin to a Primarch being armed with a bolt gun or a couple of bolt pistols. However, Asurmen is a bit more survivable and gives out a decent buff. I'd say he's a 7/10 character. He is rather pricey.
Baharroth: This is a tough one, but he more or less gets a pass. He's the cheapest I think around 110. He is all about leadership, buffs and debuffs. He's quick, flies around and has a crap gun. His sword is decidedly okay. Can deepstrike, and can maybe be used to drop occasional mortal wound grenades. Buffs are good but rather unnecessary (buffing Aspects which already have decent leadership)
Fuegan: This guy is okay, and probably one of my favourites. He has a 5+ FNP which gives him just enough survivability for his cost. he has an amazing melta weapon and a good axe...and when wounded he becomes a monster. He's one of the few I field and generally feel is worth its points.
Jain Zar: She is...one of the worst. Unless used solely to deny a big unit overwatch she's just a really fast close combat fighter...who's not very good at close combat. Four attacks with a decent blade is just "okay" and only if you're managing to charge minor characters or monsters. She can't clean large units, and will die instantly to even chaff who have 2-3 attacks a piece. A couple of Orks or Genestealers would shred her. In "modern" 8th edition she should have some bizarre number of attacks. She should, lore-wise be arguably one of the very best close combat heroes in the entire 40K game. I mean, crazy levels of good...anddd she's not. You're better off taking a squad of Banshees considering her cost. The few times I've managed to use her effectively were saddening - she stuck in cover and only came out to finish off Carnifexes which had 1-2 wounds left, etc. It was the least Phoenix Lord feeling thing ever....Jain Zar the garbage disposal. Phoenix Lords are generally not very tough --- the ones which need to get into close combat suffer because they become targeted rather quickly.
Karandras: The guy you want to love...but again a guy which isn't better than simply taking another squad of 8-9 actual Striking Scorpions. Karandras has a good buff for Scorpions and can deal out more damage vs. Infantry than Jain Zar (better weapon, and a decent mandiblaster). He's confusingly/frustratingly armed with a completely point Scorpion Chainsword. A weapon which is categorically worse than the claw and does not add attacks....so...why does it even exist? Again suffers from not being resilient - although he is the only Phoenix Lord with a decent Strength 8 power fist. You're still better off with a normal squad most likely, but again the close combat Phoenix Lords just die too fast.
Maugan Ra: Now this guy is a solid winner. Why? Because he doesn't need to close with the enemy - something almost every other Phoenix Lord needs to do. Solid buffs, particularly to Dark Reapers. Plop him in cover and get a 1+ armour. His gun isn't amazing but he can put down some decent anti-chaff firepower. He can defend himself fine with the Maugetar's blade if needed. I'd imagine he's actually the most accurate model in 40K right now - since his 2+ to hit is never modified and he re-rolls 1's. That's a supremely reliable 8 shots per turn. Again, not killing anything big or powerful, but can do some work. He has a weird weapon. Because of his accuracy the shrieker round is almost worse than just shooting more guaranteed shurikens? Anyway, he's a solid 8/10 character.
In short I'd rate most of these guys 6/10 as far as "OMG so strong!". Toughness 4, with 5 wounds and a 2+ armour save is just..."okay" in this edition. The need to get close often is awful for most of them, and none of them can slice through hordes of baddies like you'd expect. The ever increasing character targeting (missiles, veteran stalkers, non-line-of-sight marine snipers, etc.) mean these guys are only going to get worse.
Shut up you idiot...what do they need?
I think they need a few things. A) fix some of the weird issues above. Give Asurmen...literally the founding of the Aspect Shrines, etc...something better than a fething shuriken catapult. Give Jain Zar something in the area of six attacks since Eldar don't have any crazy stratagems or "fight twice" kind of things. Replace Karandras' pointless chainsword. Give them 5+ FNP. Oh, and please make some damn stratagems which increase the use/fun/cool factor of Aspects (since those stratagems could then likewise be used on Phoenix Lords). Also, give me a cool Stratagem where an Exarch from the correct Aspect could sacrifice itself into the Phoenix Lord suit to revive it or something. That'd be fluffy and cool as hell.
Some of them are fun, some are even cool...but some are really disappointing. Few can even hold a candle to characters from other armies - and none give amazing buffs. I actually like how limited their buffs are, but overall they're underwhelming.
Lol, I'd rate Zar as one of the best ones. Not only she is cheapest after useless Hawk - a hero for more than 100 pts who doesn't shoot, can't fight and doesn't buff (and is beaten by Autarch with Wings everywhere), but she combines all banshee rules under Character rule + Disarm and -1 to Hit in CC. She is a disruptor unit best used against shooters and to do T1 charges and can tarpit some characters as well. Hell, even fight first is not a terrible buff and is at least more unique than re-rolling 1's.
Asurmen and Maugan are somewhat there, although could use a good chunk of points taken off them.
My opinion on the rules: you can't make cool rules out of re-roll 1's. Take it on a higher level. Make it so if Phoenix Lord is in a detachment or is a Warlord, every unit of their aspect in that detachment get a unique rule.
Toughness 4, with 5 wounds
6 wounds. And yeah I think T4 is ok for them except maybe Asurmen. If brutes like Kharn have T4, no reason to give more to Eldar infantry character.
For starters they all should get at least a 4++. Asurmen is too expensive for what he delivers(unless hes aura would be increased to 12") then we talking. With a protect you could get some 4++ scorpions or fire dragons which would be cool but not quite worth 175 pts. All of the PLs are currently overcosted and need more attacks/better relic weapons.
White it's p cool to roll 4++ on Avengers when IK charges them or something, my Aspects usually just die to simple volume of fire from other basic infantry - autogun level and similar stuff. Lighter Aspects die to everything up to bunch of scarab bases or infantry twice cheaper than them including melee. It's somewhat useful for melee aspects, but I don't think you need it on most other ones.
Aspects are more fragile MEQs. I think the only way of survival for them is survival through damage output. Units like FD prove it well - they do their job and nobody think they're broken. And GSC proves glasscannons work, even if they're hard to pilot.
Shadenuat wrote: Aspects are more fragile MEQs. I think the only way of survival for them is survival through damage output.
Or just never get out of your transports until you are ready to die.
I primarily play mechanized lists, so my Dire Avenger squad frequently acts like a chaff launcher. Enemy getting close? Deploy troops to hold them off for a round!
Fire Dragons are like heat-seeking missiles. Hop out of the Falcon, run a few feet, shoot, and then explode.
Hawks live by not being on the board, or flitting around to keep out of LoS of everything but the thing they want to shoot.
Spiders live by stacking shenanigans.
But generally once exposed to air, Eldar tend to evaporate. It’s part of the army. Kill the other guy first and/or dirty tricks. They shouldn’t be tough. They should be fast, tricky, lethal, or dead.
If I wanted a tough stand up and fight army, I’d play my Ultras. And even they have trouble with that these days...
Yeah, it's pretty close how you describe it. DE have a luxury of not even getting out of their transports, eh.
I'm just for increasing the lethal part on units which are far from being so.
Also, when you talk about stacking shenanigans, I think it's a topic in itself: if they nerf Alaitoc, what would happen to units which are already very fragile?
Personally, I feel the Phoenix Lords should be on rules par with the various Chapter Masters of the Marines. The Phoenix Lords are, essentially, the Masters of their aspect.
Shadenuat wrote: In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.
Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.
Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.
This is why i would rather see them tone down a lot of the stats, Make them more mythic and less stupid i am just powerful and can tank a cannonshot. Smart and cool is not getting shot at in the first place.
Also, when you talk about stacking shenanigans, I think it's a topic in itself: if they nerf Alaitoc, what would happen to units which are already very fragile?
This is my argument when people talk about getting rid of Alitoic all together or bring down the nerf hammer of doom...
It just does not need to stack with CHE/hemlock but otherwise the rest of the army needs that -1 because its way too fragile otherwise..
Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.
In one Night Lords novel, Jain Zar demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way. That ability was a nice addition in the same way that the WD article on Maugan Ra showed he had the mystic ability to root himself immovably to the ground at will. Similarly, the Apocalypse formation Shadow Sect of Karandras showed Karandras with the ability to lead squads of Scorpions from one shadowed place to another shadowed place without passing through the intervening space. Baharroth's feat was given in the original Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path. These more esoteric mystic abilities help the image of the Phoenix Lords as supernatural immortal martial artists.
Now implementing such abilities in game in a useful fashion without overcosting is the issue.
Karol wrote: Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.
No. Our t3 infantry costs double what other t3 infantry costs and has 12" guns.. 8ppm for a guardian which you need to take 10 of makes it an 80pt unit(without platform). So yeah we do take serpents because we have to for the most part.
Wraiths are tough and resilient but they suffer from the same problem of short range or being cc orientated and are not troops sadly.
Shadenuat wrote: Lol, I'd rate Zar as one of the best ones. Not only she is cheapest after useless Hawk - a hero for more than 100 pts who doesn't shoot, can't fight and doesn't buff (and is beaten by Autarch with Wings everywhere), but she combines all banshee rules under Character rule + Disarm and -1 to Hit in CC. She is a disruptor unit best used against shooters and to do T1 charges and can tarpit some characters as well. Hell, even fight first is not a terrible buff and is at least more unique than re-rolling 1's.
Asurmen and Maugan are somewhat there, although could use a good chunk of points taken off them.
My opinion on the rules: you can't make cool rules out of re-roll 1's. Take it on a higher level. Make it so if Phoenix Lord is in a detachment or is a Warlord, every unit of their aspect in that detachment get a unique rule.
Toughness 4, with 5 wounds
6 wounds. And yeah I think T4 is ok for them except maybe Asurmen. If brutes like Kharn have T4, no reason to give more to Eldar infantry character.
I think that's my main issue though. Jain Zar shouldn't be a disruptor unit. The same is often said about Banshees. "Oh you're using them wrong, just use them to nullify peoples overwatch". Well that's fine, but I'd like the deadly close-combat hand-to-hand Aspect Warriors to also....fight and kill things. With regards to the Toughness 4, I'm fine with the toughness, just pointing out that the whole combination is not very survivable. I'm okay with that at Baharroth's price...beyond that, it needs work. I also 100% agree that you can't make cool rules with re-roll 1's (point of fact I hate fething re-rolls and think it's one of the very worst and most lazy game mechanics you can introduce into a game...one of the main reasons I'm falling out of love with 8th at a frantic pace).
Karol wrote: Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.
No. Our t3 infantry costs double what other t3 infantry costs and has 12" guns.. 8ppm for a guardian which you need to take 10 of makes it an 80pt unit(without platform). So yeah we do take serpents because we have to for the most part.
Wraiths are tough and resilient but they suffer from the same problem of short range or being cc orientated and are not troops sadly.
But dude, on hit rolls of '6' our AP is -3! Totally worth it! /sarcasm.
Shadenuat wrote: In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.
Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.
Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.
This is why i would rather see them tone down a lot of the stats, Make them more mythic and less stupid i am just powerful and can tank a cannonshot. Smart and cool is not getting shot at in the first place.
except the number of ways to avoid being shot in the face in 40k is pretty minimal.
as for Pheonix Lords, I'm definatly in agreement with the idea that they should be on par with Space Marine Captains/Chapter Masters.. It seems only fair.
Shadenuat wrote: In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.
Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.
Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.
This is why i would rather see them tone down a lot of the stats, Make them more mythic and less stupid i am just powerful and can tank a cannonshot. Smart and cool is not getting shot at in the first place.
except the number of ways to avoid being shot in the face in 40k is pretty minimal.
as for Pheonix Lords, I'm definatly in agreement with the idea that they should be on par with Space Marine Captains/Chapter Masters.. It seems only fair.
They are far more like a wraithguard than they are a normal warrior.
They're an animated wraithbone suit powered by the spirits of the dead led by the original soul.
Imagine a wraithguard with all the speed of a living Eldar and 10,000 years of skill and experience. There is nothing like them amongst marines except maybe dreadnoughts.
Exarchs are also the same, just with less gestalt soul power and less experience - but still more than most marine characters.
The shrine leader exarchs are chapter masters - they lead a shrine of aspect warriors in a warrior tradition created by someone else. Phoenix lords invented the aspect. Marneus didn't invent being a space marine, didn't invent the skills and equipment. Hell he didn't get fixated on his warfare to the extent that his soul fights eternally for it regardless of death.
If I was going to make them epic, I'd basically start with a wraithlord and give them the traditional rules and equipment.
Losing initiative as a stat has really hurt Eldar melee. Phoenix lords didn't need invilns as badly when they had a good chance of killing their target before they were hit back.
In 2nd ed most of them had a spare wargear slot to take a field of some kind (displacer was good), they all had high movement and high initiative. Karandras and maugan were both toughness 6.
Iracundus wrote: In one Night Lords novel, Jain Zar demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way
Eh. In her own novel she sh- shouted thunder and frost. I think there was some anime thing going on that if eldar has so much soul-powah and training, they do anime abilities like that even if they're not psykers technically.
Elbows wrote: I think that's my main issue though. Jain Zar shouldn't be a disruptor unit. The same is often said about Banshees. "Oh you're using them wrong, just use them to nullify peoples overwatch". Well that's fine, but I'd like the deadly close-combat hand-to-hand Aspect Warriors to also....fight and kill things
I agree with you in principle, but for ~100 points 4 attacks is pretty standard, and with re-roll to wounds is actually better than many other meh heroes, or was, until all the damage 5 thunderhammers came in. An extra attack would be nice but Jain already has a pretty good weapon.
I agree about Banshees, yeah.
The best Banshees I played were index 16 ppm ynnari ones. Everyone was more expensive back then, but they could fight twice, and oddly it made them very good even though price was high.
I hate fething re-rolls
I also hate auras. Turns whole army into a dumb blob centered around a bunch of models.
But dude, on hit rolls of '6' our AP is -3! Totally worth it! /sarcasm.
It is. It makes Guardians extremely killy against all kinds of threats.
Karol wrote: Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.
Unit being cheap is an argument against putting one in an expensive transport. And Aspects aren't cheap.
Don't take that as if they're unplayable or anything, far from it. Just not all of them are worth their points or do their job. Many are what I would call a "support" unit which does something, but doesn't do any damage by itself. It's hard to play army of units which don't do damage. Avengers, Banshees, Scorps, Spiders and Hawks aren't easy to make army around.
Some interesting ideas. Different people have different perceptions of what a PL is, how they are portrayed in the fluff, and how the fluff should be represented on the table top.
I think the comparison of wraith constructs or WL to a PL is not going in the right direction. Also PL being in the same spot as as a LOW is also a bit too far IMO. (YMMV).
The reason is that yes, PLs are millenia worth of experiance in a suit of exosceletal armour but essentialy are possesing a flesh and blood solidier. And they die and are reborn so they are not some sort of indistructible super tough wraith construct.
To me, they are master of their gear and natural leaders. So as they will be directing their battle lines from the front they might do a triple backflip and chop an artilery shell randomly heading their way, but i dont think they would be charging head first into a line of entrenched gun barrels.
Also in theory is a PL in the same leage as LOW? Primarchs? Greater deamons? So what does that mean in its comparison to the avatar.
PLs don't have flesh or blood I think. Idk, maybe it's different from PL to PL, but with Thorpe lore anyway, I think it's just souls in the darkness inside or something like that. And purty lights.
LOW? Maybe Asurmen, but come on, even Avatar is not one. Primarches? IMO elfs don't have the same size. Daemons? They probably killed a few. Avatar? Let's not make any comparisons to Avatar before whatever we compare gets shot by battle cannons or trampled by carnifexes.
All the Exarch and Phoenix Lord abilities are anime-like or martial art wuxia-like and basically innate psychic abilities, driven by the power of the souls within the armor. That has always been the case from powers like Battle Fortune which is literally plot armor to Crushing Blow or Mighty Strike (from 2nd ed.) that allowed for punching harder than an Ogryn. The Apocalypse Shadow Sect formation ability for Karandras was also clearly supernatural/warp based since it allowed Karandras to vanish into the shadows in one place and reappear from the shadows elsewhere, without actually moving through the space between. The Path of the Eldar novels had Karandras with also clearly unnatural shadows around him, concealing him.
Gav Thorpe showed Karandras and presumably all the other Phoenix Lords as empty suits of armor (when Karandras sustains a wound that tears open the armor), with the souls within like a galaxy of twinkling stars. He also shows how Jain Zarr regenerated from consuming the body of a Dark Eldar, even when the Phoenix Lord had been reduced to literally a few scraps of armor. The entire armor, plus weapons, were recreated. That is more like how wraith constructs can self heal.
Even in 3rd ed. and onwards, the abilities were associated with the Exarch entry itself, not just the wargear.
And of course we have the explicit explanation from 2nd edition:
Exarch suits are studded with the spirit stones of all the Eldar who have ever worn the suit. Their spirits continue to circulate through the psycho-supportive environment of the suit, like a miniature version of the infinity circuit of the Craftworld. It is the presence of this spirit-pool of raw psychic energy that gives the suit and warrior (for the two are indistinguishable) their special warrior powers.
p.11, 2nd edition Eldar Codex
Phoenix Lords don't need to be one person armies but their survivability (particularly of the CC Aspects) is an issue when they (excepting Asurmen) lack invulnerable saves. A Succubus has a dodge invulnerable save yet Jain Zarr doesn't for example.
Shadenuat wrote: Well honestly I'm surprised they're not Psykers and can't manifest some unique powers then.
They already do...just that ruleswise they are a bit underwhelming in terms of that excitement factor. They aren't Psykers because that designation is more for spellcasting individuals. Exarch powers are more focused inward and center around augmenting the individual rather than flinging warp energy outwards.
Jain Zarr has War Cry, for a -1 to hit in CC, but it's a bit "meh" since we know all Banshees already scream. Blocking shots with her blade is a more exciting power by comparison for example.
Similarly Maugan-Ra has the always hit on 2+ ability which is nice, but that again lacks that excitement compared to being able to supernaturally root oneself immovably to the ground.
The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!
I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.
Crimson wrote: The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!
I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.
Yeah I loved them in 2nd, they were pretty cooling RT when they first appeared- the Aspects, exarchs, warlocks, farseers and the Avatar were awesome. Actually the prospect fo new plastics gives me the same feeling I had about that release. I'm hoping there are a few aspect kits, a Phoenix Lord or two with epic sculpts and a upgraded avatar kit. [Could the psychic awakening thing be the fluff explanation for increasing power levels maybe?
I hope the new aspect kits will have a few options in them- I'd love the excuse to buy a couple of squads of each. Jes' initial aspect sketches had weapon variants for some of the aspects - power axes for the banshees [which ended up on the exarch], power fists on the scorpions and shuriken cannon for the Dark Reapers. I could see Fire Dragons getting flamers, maybe the Banshees getting double swords.. as long as the exarchs have the ancient weapons they could have a bit of a play. I think they only had a single set of ritual weapons due to the fact that they were in metal and would only get a single sculpt. The wraith guard kit is a good example of a classic form getting expanded with more options and I recon they only showed the classic build of the banshees - something more will be yet to be shown. Reallylooking forward to the modelling/kit bashing options with the exarch bits. I wonder if they will make the Court of the Young King a thing again? Exciting times model wise - its got me back painting eldar again. Haven't played in ages but I live in hope!
I'd love it if GW just went all out and completely revitalised the Craftworld line, put all of the older kits as last chance to buy and redid almost everything, although it would require a significant amount of kits.
I'd love to see plastic kits for all 10 known Pheonix Lords and their Aspect warriors. As well as Rangers, a new dual kit guardian squad, Avatar, Warlocks and a new dual kit for jet bikes.
Although I highly doubt we will see 25 new plastic kits....(Although it does show the scale and scope just one faction offers GW in terms of what can be released going forward.
Crimson wrote: Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill
Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.
To me, they are master of their gear and natural leaders. So as they will be directing their battle lines from the front they might do a triple backflip and chop an artilery shell randomly heading their way, but i dont think they would be charging head first into a line of entrenched gun barrels.
Crimson wrote: Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill
Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.
Or maybe we just get plastic Banshees. Prepare salt in advance.
There are Warlock sculpts still in circulation that are from RT.
Though in RT, Warlocks and Farseers were the ultimate frail sorcerers (except you could get a Farseer with W7).
Suddently, in 2nd ed though, they both became combat monsters, with the Farseer having the profile of a Space Marine Captain/Chapter Master but with -1S but +1W and +1M.
I am okay with some characters being buffers (Smite is already pretty good) but Seer Council, really, I wish to see some battle psykers in the Codex kicking ass even if it's just one dedicated expensive unit.
To me, they are master of their gear and natural leaders. So as they will be directing their battle lines from the front they might do a triple backflip and chop an artilery shell randomly heading their way, but i dont think they would be charging head first into a line of entrenched gun barrels.
Am I the only one who wants to see that happen?
don't be absurd, you ned taratoes terminator armor to do backflips in 40k
Crimson wrote: Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill
Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.
Or maybe we just get plastic Banshees. Prepare salt in advance.
Yeah it could well be just Banshees and maybe Jain Zar but I really hope not. I doubt we will get all the aspects but maybe a couple of kits and a couple of characters... maybe another variant Autarch, Rangers, storm guardians or warlocks?
I'm wondering if this is going to be a pre or post Christmas release? Seems pretty busy with SoB, the rest of the marines, The AoS releases...theres really only 3 months fellas they don't tend to do model releases in December.
Here's hope if there will be one, it will have at least some options. Male, female, helmet or no helmet, melee or ranged weapon or something. Well even picking between glaive and reaper launcher would be good.
Crimson wrote: Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill
Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.
Or maybe we just get plastic Banshees. Prepare salt in advance.
Yeah it could well be just Banshees and maybe Jain Zar but I really hope not. I doubt we will get all the aspects but maybe a couple of kits and a couple of characters... maybe another variant Autarch, Rangers, storm guardians or warlocks?
I'm wondering if this is going to be a pre or post Christmas release? Seems pretty busy with SoB, the rest of the marines, The AoS releases...theres really only 3 months fellas they don't tend to do model releases in December.
I think its unlikely to see anything on the shelves before the end of the year, as you say; there is plenty to release (SM stuff, SOB range, AOS stuff plus some more side show stuff like warcry etc)
I think we will see the banshees hit the shelves in February. Why February you ask ? I have no idea. For some reason February makes sense.
My logic seems to lean towards that if they manage to release all the Marine stuff (1 supplement a month plus the rest of the vanguard and big SOb release) they should be done by january and reap the unwashed hordes of clueless young children for that sweet sweet christams money mommy, daddy and grandparents are sending their way
I'm gunna be be honest, I live in the lala land right now and am holding onto hope that 2020 will be the year Eldar get to bask in the lime light and have the entire fine cast range re-worked and a SM style codex. I'm very excited for the future and am finding more time and willingness to hobby thanks to this.
Shadenuat wrote: PLs don't have flesh or blood I think. Idk, maybe it's different from PL to PL, but with Thorpe lore anyway, I think it's just souls in the darkness inside or something like that. And purty lights.
LOW? Maybe Asurmen, but come on, even Avatar is not one. Primarches? IMO elfs don't have the same size. Daemons? They probably killed a few. Avatar? Let's not make any comparisons to Avatar before whatever we compare gets shot by battle cannons or trampled by carnifexes.
The mind of a PL is entirely the gestalt in the armor, but that armor still needs an eldar to put it on. The wearer however, is immediately subsumed into the gestalt that makes the PL. If that wearer dies, the suit doesn't move or fight.
Crimson wrote: The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!
I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.
This is, in a nutshell, why I love Eldar...but have never recovered from the massive changes they underwent post-2nd edition. Even now. Every single game of 8th I find myself miffed that so much has changed. I generally try to put up with it, but I simply hate all the changes people have mentioned. Particularly when we got lazily-written replacements. Autarchs never appealed to me (I use a Dire Avenger has one in my army but I don't even care for using him normally). I don't like a lot of the strong units that are popular now for Eldar.
The biggest issue is still just the general malaise of Aspect Warriors. While Marines originally sucked in 8th, Eldar Aspects followed them, but were occasionally even more expensive while Toughness 3 and often slightly worse armour. Two of, arguably (lore-wise) the most specialized fighting forces in the universe of 40K...and they just get trumped by average Ork boys and chaff, etc..
I started in 2nd edition, and that beautiful, wonderful codex and the wonderful fluff/lore/etc. behind it...is where I remained in my head. Everything since has been a kind of pale shadow of the army that made me start collecting 40K. However, because a handful of Eldar units are useful in a competitive army, Eldar players are generally frowned upon when lamenting their current status.
Shadenuat wrote: In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.
Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.
Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.
Well but currently they are to expensive for the buffs and fighting power they posses. The problem is with the release of GSC and SM 02, every other army HQs look overpriced.
There is reason noone is playing with the PL after the Ynnari nerfs.
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Shadenuat wrote: White it's p cool to roll 4++ on Avengers when IK charges them or something, my Aspects usually just die to simple volume of fire from other basic infantry - autogun level and similar stuff. Lighter Aspects die to everything up to bunch of scarab bases or infantry twice cheaper than them including melee. It's somewhat useful for melee aspects, but I don't think you need it on most other ones.
Aspects are more fragile MEQs. I think the only way of survival for them is survival through damage output. Units like FD prove it well - they do their job and nobody think they're broken. And GSC proves glasscannons work, even if they're hard to pilot.
GSC are cheap, can deepstrike and make the charge more reliable and buff their damage output easier, aspect now are more expensive then meg with less toughness and save.
T4 for aspect is ok, T5 or T6 for PL is also ok, after all that is eldar technology armor so it can be much better than some random SM power armor. Ofcourse the brute can ignore the wounds more easily.
I'm gunna be be honest, I live in the lala land right now and am holding onto hope that 2020 will be the year Eldar get to bask in the lime light and have the entire fine cast range re-worked and a SM style codex. I'm very excited for the future and am finding more time and willingness to hobby thanks to this.
You and me both! There was rumours around Eldar getting a big rework.. not pinning anything on it but hoping for it and painting up what I have on the off chance this takes off.
Elbows wrote:This is, in a nutshell, why I love Eldar...but have never recovered from the massive changes they underwent post-2nd edition. Even now. Every single game of 8th I find myself miffed that so much has changed. I generally try to put up with it, but I simply hate all the changes people have mentioned. Particularly when we got lazily-written replacements. Autarchs never appealed to me (I use a Dire Avenger has one in my army but I don't even care for using him normally). I don't like a lot of the strong units that are popular now for Eldar.
The biggest issue is still just the general malaise of Aspect Warriors. While Marines originally sucked in 8th, Eldar Aspects followed them, but were occasionally even more expensive while Toughness 3 and often slightly worse armour. Two of, arguably (lore-wise) the most specialized fighting forces in the universe of 40K...and they just get trumped by average Ork boys and chaff, etc..
I started in 2nd edition, and that beautiful, wonderful codex and the wonderful fluff/lore/etc. behind it...is where I remained in my head. Everything since has been a kind of pale shadow of the army that made me start collecting 40K. However, because a handful of Eldar units are useful in a competitive army, Eldar players are generally frowned upon when lamenting their current status.
I loved that 2ndEd codex -the change to 3rd was horrible and I was playing against the 3.5 Chaos codex which had all the tricks and we seemed to have none bar star cannons.
I do wonder wether Aspects bing a poor choice currently is a deliberate design - not encouraging players to buy up the current finest models because they planned to replace them with plastic kits?[in a way doing players a favour in the long term]. Hopefully they get a boost again if these new kits come [I say if -all we know is banshees are coming].
The lack of good aspect kits has really lead me to be disinterested in eldar until now- I always felt Aspects should be the heart of the army and the eldar range really lacks good plastic infantry kits. the wraith kits, flyers, bikes and tanks are all good but without that core its just a bit empty. At the same time though I think its great they are only being done now as the recent plastic tech means they can do them justice- and maybe with great kits they will get them back into the core of the army .
The Aspects/exarchs/phoenix lords add a lot of the mysticism of the eldar and I really hope we get that back, the exotic and esoteric feel - pure high tech is more Tau, Eldar are more like witchcraft.
For 40K armies Eldar are indeed about in the worst condition with a lot of old plastics and finecast models. They've some great newer stuff, but the old still forms a very strong core to the army. Most other races tend to have finecast left in heroes and such - where its harder to justify a big investment in new plastics to replace the finecast quickly.
Here is to hoping for Eldar getting a full rework even if its teased out in bits.
Reading some of these comments, I wonder how many old grognards dropped Eldar in 3rd? Of course when 3rd released I saw a drop in old blood across the table overall, but also an influx of new.
I was spinning up an Eldar force as a second army at the end of 2nd. Like most of you, that codex full of awesome, and the units that played like they were the last remnants of an advanced culture. Holding off the madness of the galaxy with superior technology and stubborn arrogance.
Then we take our poets and shopkeepers, give them a SMG, and send them into the meatgrinder. Ablative wounds for the heavy platform.
I understand the changes to 3rd. 2nd still had its roots as an RPG playing at being a wargame. It was a bloated, complecated, (lovable) mess. 3rd was much cleaner, could be played with less negotiation and set up, and not take all weeekend for anything over a squad level. But of all the sins that it comited to become a more modern wargame, I will never forgive what it did to the shuricain catapult.
--
A full rework would do bad things to my wallet. I’m not sure how much of my army I’d replace. I think my basic guardians, dated though they are, I’d keep. I’m mostly OK on tanks these days. 2 flacons, 2 WS, and a FP/Spinner. I’d be on the hook for a box of each aspect, rangers, maybe a HQ or two if the looked cool. Plus anything new they invent that doesn’t rub my lore the wrong way. Vypers. That’s a unit I already have two of where I’d get more. Tight fit to the theme of my list, dated kit, would let me have two sides of my bike forces, old/new.
Lots of fingers crossed for the future. I thnk this fall/winter is going to see me expand with the new vanguard marines, maybe next spring it will be time for the elves? I honestly don’t see a reboot much sooner then that. They can dribble squads out to us piecemeal, but anything major is going to take some lead time.
Crimson wrote: The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!
I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.
This is, in a nutshell, why I love Eldar...but have never recovered from the massive changes they underwent post-2nd edition. Even now. Every single game of 8th I find myself miffed that so much has changed. I generally try to put up with it, but I simply hate all the changes people have mentioned. Particularly when we got lazily-written replacements. Autarchs never appealed to me (I use a Dire Avenger has one in my army but I don't even care for using him normally). I don't like a lot of the strong units that are popular now for Eldar.
The biggest issue is still just the general malaise of Aspect Warriors. While Marines originally sucked in 8th, Eldar Aspects followed them, but were occasionally even more expensive while Toughness 3 and often slightly worse armour. Two of, arguably (lore-wise) the most specialized fighting forces in the universe of 40K...and they just get trumped by average Ork boys and chaff, etc..
I started in 2nd edition, and that beautiful, wonderful codex and the wonderful fluff/lore/etc. behind it...is where I remained in my head. Everything since has been a kind of pale shadow of the army that made me start collecting 40K. However, because a handful of Eldar units are useful in a competitive army, Eldar players are generally frowned upon when lamenting their current status.
The gutting of Eldar feel and the removal of Harlequins from the game in 3rd were huge factors in my rage quitting 40k back then. I had some hopes during the index era, but when codex came out there was nothing left to wait for.
As to debate about how powefull Phienix Lords should be, I would like to remind, that according to lore, Maugan Ra single handedly dragged Altansar out of the Eye of Terror. That is easily a primarch level feat...
What I would like the most to see rules wise is the actual phoenix aspect - durability by resurrection. It is already existing ability within 40k and it seems most fitting for PLs to have it. It would be most thematic if it required another eldar model sacrifice, but any reasonable implementation would do.
Nevelon wrote: Reading some of these comments, I wonder how many old grognards dropped Eldar in 3rd? Of course when 3rd released I saw a drop in old blood across the table overall, but also an influx of new.
I was spinning up an Eldar force as a second army at the end of 2nd. Like most of you, that codex full of awesome, and the units that played like they were the last remnants of an advanced culture. Holding off the madness of the galaxy with superior technology and stubborn arrogance.
Then we take our poets and shopkeepers, give them a SMG, and send them into the meatgrinder. Ablative wounds for the heavy platform.
I understand the changes to 3rd. 2nd still had its roots as an RPG playing at being a wargame. It was a bloated, complecated, (lovable) mess. 3rd was much cleaner, could be played with less negotiation and set up, and not take all weeekend for anything over a squad level. But of all the sins that it comited to become a more modern wargame, I will never forgive what it did to the shuricain catapult.
--
A full rework would do bad things to my wallet. I’m not sure how much of my army I’d replace. I think my basic guardians, dated though they are, I’d keep. I’m mostly OK on tanks these days. 2 flacons, 2 WS, and a FP/Spinner. I’d be on the hook for a box of each aspect, rangers, maybe a HQ or two if the looked cool. Plus anything new they invent that doesn’t rub my lore the wrong way. Vypers. That’s a unit I already have two of where I’d get more. Tight fit to the theme of my list, dated kit, would let me have two sides of my bike forces, old/new.
Lots of fingers crossed for the future. I thnk this fall/winter is going to see me expand with the new vanguard marines, maybe next spring it will be time for the elves? I honestly don’t see a reboot much sooner then that. They can dribble squads out to us piecemeal, but anything major is going to take some lead time.
For those of us not around then, what did happen to the shuriken catapult?
pm713 wrote: For those of us not around then, what did happen to the shuriken catapult?
2nd ed:
24” range, with +1 to hit at short (12”) S4, D1, -2 save mode, armor pen of d6+4. Sustained fire 1dice. (so it got 1,1,2,2,3,jam number of shots)
3rd ed:
12” range, S4, AP5, Assault 2
By way of comparison, a storm bolter had the same stats, but only a -1 save mod. It translated at 24” range, S4 AP5 Assault 2
Halving the range changed the army completely. Especially for such a fragile army.
Nevelon wrote: Reading some of these comments, I wonder how many old grognards dropped Eldar in 3rd? Of course when 3rd released I saw a drop in old blood across the table overall, but also an influx of new.
I was spinning up an Eldar force as a second army at the end of 2nd. Like most of you, that codex full of awesome, and the units that played like they were the last remnants of an advanced culture. Holding off the madness of the galaxy with superior technology and stubborn arrogance.
Then we take our poets and shopkeepers, give them a SMG, and send them into the meatgrinder. Ablative wounds for the heavy platform.
I understand the changes to 3rd. 2nd still had its roots as an RPG playing at being a wargame. It was a bloated, complecated, (lovable) mess. 3rd was much cleaner, could be played with less negotiation and set up, and not take all weeekend for anything over a squad level. But of all the sins that it comited to become a more modern wargame, I will never forgive what it did to the shuricain catapult.
--
A full rework would do bad things to my wallet. I’m not sure how much of my army I’d replace. I think my basic guardians, dated though they are, I’d keep. I’m mostly OK on tanks these days. 2 flacons, 2 WS, and a FP/Spinner. I’d be on the hook for a box of each aspect, rangers, maybe a HQ or two if the looked cool. Plus anything new they invent that doesn’t rub my lore the wrong way. Vypers. That’s a unit I already have two of where I’d get more. Tight fit to the theme of my list, dated kit, would let me have two sides of my bike forces, old/new.
Lots of fingers crossed for the future. I thnk this fall/winter is going to see me expand with the new vanguard marines, maybe next spring it will be time for the elves? I honestly don’t see a reboot much sooner then that. They can dribble squads out to us piecemeal, but anything major is going to take some lead time.
For those of us not around then, what did happen to the shuriken catapult?
In 2nd edition it was the best basic firearm:
Range 24"
Strength 4
Armor save mod -2
Sustained fire dice x 1 (so 1-3 shots, with possibility of jam)
By comparison the bolter only had armor save mod -1.
Now admittedly the shuriken catapult was arguably far too powerful, outperforming the bolter in both armor save modifier and fire rate. However the rules changes in 3rd edition nerfed it too hard the other way:
Range dropped to 12"
Save modifier turned to AP 5
Assault 2
With the AP system in 3rd edition, the catapult became basically worthless against 3+ saves so that's why everyone gravitated towards any weapon with AP3 or better, such as the Star Cannon.
GW's flawed rationale was that the extra shot and the Assault ability to fire 2 shots when moving would compensate for the shortened range. Problem is when you give it to paper thin (5+ save) Guardians with WS and BS 3, in an edition when some units could charge more than 12" and where basic bolter equivalent shots were next to worthless.
Since then GW have flatly refused to admit their error even though their other actions amount to tacit admission, such as the extended range on Dire Avenger catapults.
Crimson wrote: And having these shotgun guardian to go with a heavy weapon platform with a long ranged weapon makes it even more idiotic.
Yes, and that heavy weapon platform is a relic of the 2nd edition when Guardians could hang in the back and shoot at the enemy with 24" catapults or 24" lasguns (which I never ever saw anyone take, not when the 2nd edition catapult was that good).
In 3rd edition, GW wanted to differentiate all factions from each other so removed the lasgun option from Guardians but without any similarly ranged replacement. Guardians shooting at reasonable range at the enemy, and keeping their distance in order to preserve Eldar life, would make sense.
Having a long ranged weapon in a squad of short ranged SMG equivalents made no sense. Either the platform was shooting and the Guardians were just ablative wounds that didn't shoot, or if the Guardians were close enough to shoot, they would promptly be deleted by return fire or wiped out in CC since the 3rd edition catapult was not enough additional firepower to reliably make a difference in an MEQ environment, and the Guardians' 5+ save was worthless.
The change to the catapult also rippled outwards to any Eldar vehicle that mounted catapults, promptly rendering the twin catapult mount worthless if it couldn't be upgraded to a shuriken cannon.
The pseudo-Rending rule to shuriken weapons now makes catapult firepower better, but it still basically dances around the main issue of the catapult's cripplingly short range and the Craftworld Eldar being a faction that is supposed to value Eldar life, not throwing cannon fodder at the enemy.
I think Kelly himself stated that 12" Catapults are dumb.
I think Catapults should be Storm Guardian weapons (so either a Catapult or Sword + Pistol), while something like Rapid Fire 2 Lasgun from Index Swooping Hawks should be Defender weapon. They should operate HWP and that's should be their whole job.
Shadenuat wrote: I hink Kelly himself stated that "12 Catapults are dumb.
Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!
Shadenuat wrote: I hink Kelly himself stated that "12 Catapults are dumb.
Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!
Because SM will cry in forums 3 years if they did that, but it`s stupid that the race that try to preserve their lives is giving their military short weapons and 0 protection.
I main marines, but I'd make catapults assault 2, range 24 and avenger catapults assault 3, range 24. In current system it also might be easier to just replace their current bespoke rule with a flat AP -1, though that is not such a big deal.
Because SM will cry in forums 3 years if they did that, but it`s stupid that the race that try to preserve their lives is giving their military short weapons and 0 protection.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, because that's why. They factor in everyone's complaining on forums that they have no vested stake in.
It surely has nothing to do with a few stodgy grognards in the rules team having more say than they should and a measure of "keep things as is" for the most part, right?
I also started in 2nd edition with Eldar. I bought a war walker at a sale (Yes GW used to have sales!) and that glorious 2nd edition codex was read front to back, back to front and every which way.
Having said that, I'm also aware that was 20+ years ago, and continually lamenting the past and not embracing the future, is not only futile... it's kinda sad.
Crimson wrote: Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!
Shorter ranges reward mobility and moving around taking the benefit of Battle Focus, and give Eldar the feel that they're an army about precision strike, not stand and shoot army. Yeah, 12" probably is too short, but I don't think it would be good for the game to have hundreds of Shuriken fly from high range from cover/penalties to hit. Then Guardians would just turn into fw/skitarii/marines. And then Dire Avengers need something to make them unique. I think when you play Eldar, there should always be a feeling that you're dancing just outside of enemy charge and need to position your units carefully.
Because SM will cry in forums 3 years if they did that, but it`s stupid that the race that try to preserve their lives is giving their military short weapons and 0 protection.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, because that's why. They factor in everyone's complaining on forums that they have no vested stake in.
It surely has nothing to do with a few stodgy grognards in the rules team having more say than they should and a measure of "keep things as is" for the most part, right?
I said it mostly like a joke, but it`s fact that there were many old marine players ragging on GW facebook page, because they did not get all the new SM stuff.
I said it mostly like a joke, but it`s fact that there were many old marine players ragging on GW facebook page, because they did not get all the new SM stuff.
Yes, because we're now almost a month past the start of preorders for the Marine stuff(started on August 10th--released on the 17th) with a large chunk of the missing items(Eliminators box, Infiltrators/Incursors box, the Impulsor, and the Reiver Lieutenant that they plastered into every photo showcasing the new stuff) still nowhere in sight.
That's not even factoring in the remaining four supplements. And for whatever reason, the two Marine releases we actually saw in August?
They had six models across them. Only three(Tigurius, Khan, Invictor) were actually new, and two of those three were Chapter specific(Khan and Tigurius).
It's not like they were packed to the brim with stuff on the one non-Codex release they did(Invictor, Phobos Librarian, Phobos Captain, and the "Wake the Dead" Lieutenant) either. Or that they couldn't have managed to give some kind of idea when to expect stuff or added some of it in during the Made to Order LOTR wave(which wasn't really that big anyways, being something like 6 items).
So yeah, you might think people are being impatient or whiny or whatever...but some of us(myself included) would like to be able to finish out our all Phobos forces.
Shuriken Catapults were very good in 2nd edition, but keep in mind they were an option, and somewhat expensive (considering a Guardian was still a 'militia' unit stat-wise). Guardians died very quickly in 2nd ed., so it was a balancing act, but yes the Shuriken Catapult was superior to even a common Stormbolter. This was fine, because you still had cheap and numerous lasguns as an option for the squad.
Caution: Contentious Statement: While the Eldar were gutted, I also dislike the recent change to make Guardians BS/WS 3+. This was an utterly pointless and stupid change which made Guardians too good, and made Aspect Warriors seem even less purposeful. (the same goes for Space Marine Scouts just being shoe-horned into BS/WS 3+ as well). What the feth is the problem having units that better/worse than other units? That's the whole point. Give me BS/WS 4+ Guardians with cheap lasguns, and make them cheaper/worse than Aspect Warriors. This dumbing down of the variance in stat-lines is a terrible direction. And yes, I'm arguing that one of our units should be made worse...I understand that.
Lore-wise, an Aspect Warrior is a dedicated warrior, having risked donning the war mask and training endlessly day after day, sometimes for years. Mastering a single martial discipline. Etc. etc. etc. This is why, lore-wise a fight between say, a Striking Scorpion and an Assault Marine should be amazing, legendary even. Each of them hundreds of years old, dedicated to a life of martial prowess - a master of their chosen form of combat, armed with the finest weapons and gear in the universe, bla bla bla. But suddenly some militia and some newly recruited scouts are more or less on par, and just have slightly worse armour? What the feth?
I think GW fethed up big time when they launched 8th. They didn't take into account the impact modifiers would have on the dumbed down stat-lines which are still more or less a hold-over from 3rd editions "blandening". This would have been the time to re-write the basic Marine statline (other than dropping the leadership value by one...). We need more diverse/expansive gaps/differences in traits and statlines.
Caution: Rules Rant ahead...so I'm spoilering it.
Spoiler:
This also heavily highlights a massive issue with the fixed to-hit numbers instead of the older BS/WS formula. Something I've mentioned dozens of times in other threads. GW stuck themselves in a corner with the "X+" method of stats. They simply don't work well enough given the rest of the 8th edition design. I hate to say it but they should have kept the old stat options.
2nd Edition: Space Marine: BS 4 (3+ to hit before modifiers)
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: BS 5 (2+ to hit before modifiers)
Space Marine Captain: BS 7 (2+ to hit before modifiers)
8th Edition: Space Marine: 3+
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: 3+
Space Marine Captain: 2+
So we can see the slight disparity before we start. Now let's say in either game you're shooting at something with a -2 to hit penalty (for whatever reason)
2nd Edition: Space Marine: 5+ to hit.
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: 4+ to hit.
Space Marine Captain: 2+ to hit.
8th Edition: Space Marine: 5+ to hit.
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: 5+ to hit.
Space Marine Captain: 4+ to hit.
The 8th edition system is extremely limited. It also fails to represent accurately the ability of legendary fighters such as Space Marine Captains, Primarchs, etc. GW has to hamfist rules to make them somehow better than other units. With the old BS system, you could have a BS of 10...and you'd essentially ignore up to -5 penalties. This gives you a much larger variance in skill and ability. Maybe a Primarch is BS10, so he doesn't drop to 3+ just because there's a negative. They've tried to fix this kind of nonsense with the wave of re-roll auras/buffs/stratagems, but they really should have not bothered changing the system.
WS could have likewise been kept and been super easy, swap it over to the current to-wound system. Gives you super easy math and if you're a close combat monster you'll wreck face. If you're a hapless chaff unit you'll struggle mightily to harm a Primarch or Hive Tyrant...as you 100% should.
This simple change which was supposed to streamline things really made the game far worse and put GW in an awkward spot where new rules going forward are becoming nearly impossible to invent because there's no room in a 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ design that spans from Primarchs to gretchin...
Crimson wrote: Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!
Shorter ranges reward mobility and moving around taking the benefit of Battle Focus, and give Eldar the feel that they're an army about precision strike, not stand and shoot army. Yeah, 12" probably is too short, but I don't think it would be good for the game to have hundreds of Shuriken fly from high range from cover/penalties to hit. Then Guardians would just turn into fw/skitarii/marines. And then Dire Avengers need something to make them unique. I think when you play Eldar, there should always be a feeling that you're dancing just outside of enemy charge and need to position your units carefully.
I get what you're saying, but 24 is not a particularly long range these days though. 18 was my another suggestion, but that honestly still doesn't make sense with the platforms. Now my suggestion was based on the current models. If we could get a new kit, then there could be a harder hitting, range 18 catapults, and weaker, but range 24 or even 30 laser weapon. Then the latter could go with the platforms.
24" is not long because more factions get more range and more new weapons, and also because range only really comes into play if you slam 2 tables together and play Apoc.
Anyway, until GW decides to also change Guardian kit, I think it's all pointless wishlisting. I'm more interested if they change Aspect weapons.
12" Assault made sense when a Bolter had to stand still to fire 2 shots at 12" and one at 24", and when it moved it only got one shot at 12" AND couldn't charge. The Eldar instead could move 6", fire twice AND Charge. Huge difference. That was 3rd Ed.
Unfortunately the Shuriken Catapult didn't get upgraded while the Rapid Fire rules evolved over subsequent editions.
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The Storm Bolter at that time turned into Assault 2 24", which balanced out a couple things. Terminators went down in BS and lost their Targeters, and the Assault Cannon got knocked down a huge amount from 2nd to 3rd. Since they were the only Storm Bolter carrying unit, the relative adjustments were reasonable, imo.
The original Guardian WS/BS of 3 was from when the average trained human WS/BS was 3, before the swamping of MEQ on the tabletop made WS/BS 4 the new average. This has its roots in the original WHFB when Elves were also basically human with +1 to WS, BS, I, LD. The idea was that a part-time militia Eldar was as good as a professional Imperial Guard soldier, and an Eldar that really focused on training as a professional soldier could achieve WS/BS 4 which was and still is meant to represent elite levels of skill. It is just that its value has been devalued by the ubiquitous MEQ statline.
The problem with the 3rd edition 12" catapult and needing to "dance" into range was the payoff didn't really justify the effort involved. An extra bolter equivalent shot was "meh" when it also meant that some of the time the catapult couldn't fire at all. When these shots also couldn't reliably destroy their target, it also just exposed the firer to a charge. That was why Guardian squads turned into ablative wounds for the heavy weapons platform. It just wasn't worth the effort and risk to do otherwise. If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant enough for the player to want to jump through those hoops.
Iracundus wrote: If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant
True. But Guardian blobs do reward you with good firepower now. It's units like Avengers and Warp Spiders who feel meh for their price for just 2 shots.
Iracundus wrote: The problem with the 3rd edition 12" catapult and needing to "dance" into range was the payoff didn't really justify the effort involved. An extra bolter equivalent shot was "meh" when it also meant that some of the time the catapult couldn't fire at all. When these shots also couldn't reliably destroy their target, it also just exposed the firer to a charge. That was why Guardian squads turned into ablative wounds for the heavy weapons platform. It just wasn't worth the effort and risk to do otherwise. If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant enough for the player to want to jump through those hoops.
I think that depends tremendously on your frame of reference. Guardians could slaughter Guardsmen with Catapults, and Guardians could also charge after firing their guns, unlike Guardsmen and Space Marines. That meant they didn't have to be waiting around for a counter charge. Imo they worked pretty well in close support of Aspects against other infantry in 3rd. Otherwise, it put Guardians in control of a Heavy Weapons platform where they could support the rest of the army, which works pretty well from a home-grown militia standpoint.
There are aspects of 3rd that broke down really fast, like the speed of assaults as highlighted by the Blood Angels codex at the time. But when pushing things around using the basic infantry, Guardians worked out alright, imo. Despite all the Infantry moving 6", the Assault designation of the Catapult made Eldar way more capable on the move. Remember, Space Marine moves, shoots once, can't charge. Very limited.
I said it mostly like a joke, but it`s fact that there were many old marine players ragging on GW facebook page, because they did not get all the new SM stuff.
Yes, because we're now almost a month past the start of preorders for the Marine stuff(started on August 10th--released on the 17th) with a large chunk of the missing items(Eliminators box, Infiltrators/Incursors box, the Impulsor, and the Reiver Lieutenant that they plastered into every photo showcasing the new stuff) still nowhere in sight.
That's not even factoring in the remaining four supplements. And for whatever reason, the two Marine releases we actually saw in August?
They had six models across them. Only three(Tigurius, Khan, Invictor) were actually new, and two of those three were Chapter specific(Khan and Tigurius).
It's not like they were packed to the brim with stuff on the one non-Codex release they did(Invictor, Phobos Librarian, Phobos Captain, and the "Wake the Dead" Lieutenant) either. Or that they couldn't have managed to give some kind of idea when to expect stuff or added some of it in during the Made to Order LOTR wave(which wasn't really that big anyways, being something like 6 items).
So yeah, you might think people are being impatient or whiny or whatever...but some of us(myself included) would like to be able to finish out our all Phobos forces.
Most of the rage was about the balance and how they are not getting all the new stuff like doctrines. It was not about not getting the models.
Iracundus wrote: The problem with the 3rd edition 12" catapult and needing to "dance" into range was the payoff didn't really justify the effort involved. An extra bolter equivalent shot was "meh" when it also meant that some of the time the catapult couldn't fire at all. When these shots also couldn't reliably destroy their target, it also just exposed the firer to a charge. That was why Guardian squads turned into ablative wounds for the heavy weapons platform. It just wasn't worth the effort and risk to do otherwise. If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant enough for the player to want to jump through those hoops.
I think that depends tremendously on your frame of reference. Guardians could slaughter Guardsmen with Catapults, and Guardians could also charge after firing their guns, unlike Guardsmen and Space Marines. That meant they didn't have to be waiting around for a counter charge. Imo they worked pretty well in close support of Aspects against other infantry in 3rd. Otherwise, it put Guardians in control of a Heavy Weapons platform where they could support the rest of the army, which works pretty well from a home-grown militia standpoint.
There are aspects of 3rd that broke down really fast, like the speed of assaults as highlighted by the Blood Angels codex at the time. But when pushing things around using the basic infantry, Guardians worked out alright, imo. Despite all the Infantry moving 6", the Assault designation of the Catapult made Eldar way more capable on the move. Remember, Space Marine moves, shoots once, can't charge. Very limited.
I heard that guardians manage to move again after they shoot, so they can get some protection, but now they are in the open and pretty vulnerable. Guardsmen are 4 pts and with catachan they can fight in melee something guardians can`t.
Moving after shooting was a really late addition, in 6th or 7th (AKA 3.7 and 3.8 edition).
8th edition is truly actually 4th edition 40k rather than the mess that was 3rd edition amended but they really didn't scrap enough of 3rd edition like they did from 2nd -> 3rd.
Galef wrote: Agreed. And assuming they aren't dual-kits and don't include any new options (requiring new rules), we are talking about spindly little Elves, not bulky Primaris. So hopefully they kits are less than $30 per 5.
Heck, if they follow the same pattern as some DE kits, we might even see 5 for $25, even for the Jump units. Hellions are 5 Elves on skyboards for $25, so Hawks and Spiders could follow suit
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Hahahahahahaahahahahahahahh.... 30 for 5, you're a funny man. Following the pattern of an army that came out in fifth edition, a funny, funny man.
40$ per 5 is the current standard. For everything.
Galef wrote: Agreed. And assuming they aren't dual-kits and don't include any new options (requiring new rules), we are talking about spindly little Elves, not bulky Primaris. So hopefully they kits are less than $30 per 5.
Heck, if they follow the same pattern as some DE kits, we might even see 5 for $25, even for the Jump units. Hellions are 5 Elves on skyboards for $25, so Hawks and Spiders could follow suit
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Hahahahahahaahahahahahahahh.... 30 for 5, you're a funny man. Following the pattern of an army that came out in fifth edition, a funny, funny man.
40$ per 5 is the current standard. For everything.
Or $60 for 10. But either way too darn expensive for thin spindly models that aren't likely to come with alternate options aside from Exarch weapons.
I really hope they don't come in sets of 10, though. Given that most Aspects are in units of 4 + Exarch, boxes of 5 a la Dire Avengers makes the most sense. And that box is $35.
Keep in mind this is the army which went from 10 Dire Avengers for $35....arbitrarily cut to 5 Dire Avengers for $35.
I'm excited about plastic Aspects, despite not really playing the game at the moment....but I simply won't pay $60 for 10 small plastic figures.
I think the very best we could possibly hope for is maybe $50-55 per box. My hope is that in a year or two there is a Swordwind box at Christmas which is a good deal, or a new start collecting box - or some combo/starter box to make the cost not absolutely stupid.
(Yeah there will be some sort of campaign book malrkay and yaddaa yadda supplements regarding psychic awekning nobody really cares about)
So, some of our fears appear to have been alleviated, the howling banshees does not appear to have been primarised/ynarrified in any way shape or form but rather is a full on plastic revamp. I don't know about any other CWE fans but having been searching ebay for good metals for all of our aspects I can now stop looking for banshees and take my time waiting for these to be released and get on with the rest of my army. Makes me a very happy happy table topper. I know I will be picking up at least a couple boxes (lets hope they don't come in a wake the dead type box..)
So question is, do we just get the banshees? And have to make do with that for the next XX years?
Will we see some new phoenix lords??
Are there going to resculpt PLs also??
What's the next aspects after the banshees likely to be done? (My money is on scorpions as they are very iconic)
This is what is getting me interested in Eldar. If they do the AoK as well, that will seal the deal.
I've always been an advocate of guardian defenders getting lasblasters instead of shuriken catapults. This would better match the weapons platform ranges.
Give storm guardians the shuriken catapults with special weapons make then a short range attacking unit.
^ Agreed, except normal cats should still be range 18. 12 is a pistol range, it is pathetic. Avengers don't need longer range than the normal ones, they can get an extra shot instead. It is silly that the citizen militia needs to get closer to the enemy than the dedicated professional warriors led by a sword-wielding Exarch.
Crimson wrote: ^ Agreed, except normal cats should still be range 18. 12 is a pistol range, it is pathetic. Avengers don't need longer range than the normal ones, they can get an extra shot instead. It is silly that the citizen militia needs to get closer to the enemy than the dedicated professional warriors led by a sword-wielding Exarch.
Isn't that like the definition of what a militia is, something that is less efficient and worse, if at all, trained? Volksturm for example used anti tank from point blank range. Why normal wehrmacht units, were trained and supplied with longer range weapons.
Crimson wrote: ^ Agreed, except normal cats should still be range 18. 12 is a pistol range, it is pathetic. Avengers don't need longer range than the normal ones, they can get an extra shot instead. It is silly that the citizen militia needs to get closer to the enemy than the dedicated professional warriors led by a sword-wielding Exarch.
Isn't that like the definition of what a militia is, something that is less efficient and worse, if at all, trained? Volksturm for example used anti tank from point blank range. Why normal wehrmacht units, were trained and supplied with longer range weapons.
Because these are the citizens that the Eldar would prefer were not killed. Giving them shotguns and telling them to run at the enemy so that they can shoot once and die seems pretty inappropriate thematically.
Militias are only used in two situations. A threat is a minimal, so it doesn't require regular army. Or the threat is so huge, then every man, woman and child is needed to do something for the war effort.
So if eldar militia is being used, then we are either in the first situation, which means it shouldn't matter what they face, as it would be weak. Or if it is the secon situation, they would be fed to the meat grinder, because the situation is so dire, that it probably threatens the very existance of local eldar population.
not an eldar fluff guru here but are guardians useally deployed in defence of a craftworld? if so the short range might be understandable in that they're geared to fight in close quarters etc. I mean a shot gun is a pretty good weapon for ahllway fights
Eldar Guardians are indeed citizens of the Eldar Craftworld who are not currently traveling the Path of the Warrior. They are not (currently) dedicating themselves to the art of war, nor immersing themselves in the 'glory' of combat, also referred to as the 'death mask' etc.
Eldar Guardians may have very well been on the Path of the Warrior previously. Warlocks, for instance, are Eldar who are on the Path of the Seer but have traveled the Path of the Warrior before (or so they justify as of now).
The Eldar are short on citizenry, not technology, nor weapons. Guardians often operate the heavy machinery, patrol the back lines, and support the Craftworld's Aspect Warriors wherever needed. An Eldar's natural heart rate, speed, etc. means that even the average citizen donning the wargear of the Craftworld is inline with a current serving Imperial Guard soldier. They are not Volksturm. They are only 'militia' in the loosest sense of the term.
Guardians would more or less be led into battle by Warlocks, and guided by Farseers, etc.
No Craftworld would ever intentionally arm their Guardians with "rifles" that don't outrange pistols. 'Storm Guardians' are a relatively new invention (and one that's never been supported by a proper kit, just a gakky add-on sprue). Originally Guardians could take any mix of close combat, lasgun, and shuriken weapons. It would make sense - as mentioned above if a Guardian unit was fighting inside of a ship or something they might take close combat weapons. A Craftworld however, is literally a world. There are deserts, seas, forests, etc. on the actual Craftworld, so range would always be an issue like it would on normal planets.
These are not old women, old men, and children. Think more along the lines of Israel, etc. An armed and trained civilian force that's always ready to take up arms if needed. This is why the Black Guardians from Ulthwe used to actually be a real thing. Their Craftworld inexplicably being close to the Eye of Terror (and no, I have no idea why they couldn't just move the damn Craftworld...?), they took up arms so frequently they used to be the only ones to have a BS or(!) WS of 4.
Yes, you would use Guardians in a last ditch effort, or if logistics simply demanded it, but Aspect Warriors would be doing most of the heavy lifting.
Their Craftworld inexplicably being close to the Eye of Terror (and no, I have no idea why they couldn't just move the damn Craftworld...?)
Because they're Ulthwe, sentinels and vigils over the Eye. Makes divining ways to defeat Chaos easier. Also it makes for any other race really hard to track them down there, as by Jain Zar novel.
Amishprn86 wrote: 8pages, so sorry if im being lazy and it was already said, but it looks like they are on the new 28mm size bases, anyone else notice or thinks this?
I don’t think so, looking at that one pic. Might be wrong. Are there any other pics out there?
Edit: Wait, 28mm? My undercafinated brain just leapt straight to 32s. It might be 28, but with scale creep it’s impossible to tell without more references.
Amishprn86 wrote: 8pages, so sorry if im being lazy and it was already said, but it looks like they are on the new 28mm size bases, anyone else notice or thinks this?
I don’t think so, looking at that one pic. Might be wrong. Are there any other pics out there?
Edit: Wait, 28mm? My undercafinated brain just leapt straight to 32s. It might be 28, but with scale creep it’s impossible to tell without more references.
28mm? Does GW produce those? What would be the point? That's only 1.5mm more on either side of a 25mm. That's barely noticeable
EDIT: I just copy-pasted that new Banshees photo next to a Gaurdian photo from the GW website. I adjusted the sizes so that the bases were the same width and both models look like the same scale. But when I adjust the size of the Banshee photo to match a 28 or 32mm base, the banshee looked way too big compared to the Gaurdian. Given that, I'm 99% sure the new Banshee is still 25mm. Thank goodness. Although Exarch being on 32s could be cool
Their Craftworld inexplicably being close to the Eye of Terror (and no, I have no idea why they couldn't just move the damn Craftworld...?)
Because they're Ulthwe, sentinels and vigils over the Eye. Makes divining ways to defeat Chaos easier. Also it makes for any other race really hard to track them down there, as by Jain Zar novel.
But they only became that because they were stuck in the gravity of the Eye and forced to orbit it. So I still don't see why they didn't just leave and go somewhere else, it's not like other Craftworlds are easy to find.
My opinion on the shuriken weapon discussion: Why not just make avenger catapults the standard for both guardians and avengers but limit the bladestorm range for guardians? That makes the weapon itself better but shows the avengers are better at using it because they can bladestorm at any range.
Hmm. As pointless as it seems, if GW is now making 28mms, I would expect all new models that belong on 25mm to be updated to 28s. That's a fair compromise to putting them on 32s.
Now if we can get GW to put Pink Horrors & Bloodletters (which never should have been bumped to 32s) on the 28mms......
The ancient and proud Aeldari race is split into various factions. The stoic and noble Asuryani live their lives adrift on planet-sized Craftworlds. The depraved Drukhari venture forth from the dark metropolis of Commorragh to raid and pillage. The mysterious Harlequins travel the galaxy according to their unfathomable whims via the webway. And the newly formed Ynnari, comprised of members from all walks of Aeldari life, are united in the desire to awaken Ynnead, god of the dead.
The Aeldari are a psychically sensitive race, and the fragile balance between these disparate cultures has been disturbed by the Psychic Awakening. These factions have become embroiled in a full-scale internecine war for the future of their people.
Ancient divisions yawn ever wider, the complex fabric of alliances and uneasy truces unravels, and self-righteous leaders on all sides attempt to rally support for their causes.
One guy over on facebook point out that Asuryan the missing/presumed dead god of the Eldar is also known as the Phoenix king. Also at the end of Valedor the Flame of Asuryan relit itself.. and when Jes was talking about how they designed the Yncarne he said they thought what if there were avatars of other gods, not just Khaine..
Its probably just new model of a phoenix lord but I thought that was an interesting angle.. the Eldar gods start to return in some form... maybe even as avatars .. It would have a bit more weight to the fate of the race than just the Phoenix Lords [who are awesome but the return of eldar gods who have been missing would be a bit more of a game changer. The Phoenix Lords , die/go missing/return seemingly all the time..
And yes I am getting stupidly excited [and probably over optimistic..] . Anyway they said further reveals on Monday...
and self-righteous leaders on all sides attempt to rally support for their causes.
Drukhari
Really, GW?
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silverstu wrote: One guy over on facebook point out that Asuryan the missing/presumed dead god of the Eldar is also known as the Phoenix king. Also at the end of Valedor the Flame of Asuryan relit itself.. and when Jes was talking about how they designed the Yncarne he said they thought what if there were avatars of other gods, not just Khaine..
Its probably just new model of a phoenix lord but I thought that was an interesting angle.. the Eldar gods start to return in some form... maybe even as avatars .. It would have a bit more weight to the fate of the race than just the Phoenix Lords [who are awesome but the return of eldar gods who have been missing would be a bit more of a game changer. The Phoenix Lords , die/go missing/return seemingly all the time..
And yes I am getting stupidly excited [and probably over optimistic..] . Anyway they said further reveals on Monday...
According to some lore, Asurmen was a champion of Asuryan before the Fall.
As for Asuryan going "missing", he's about as missing as the fish I ate last night. Some disgusting hateful cretin devoured him. That's not the same as "We don't know where he is".
But (1), Asuryan being all Phoenixy is a thing, so a rebirth is possible. And (2), if Slanesh can be so active before he/she was born/created, surely Asuryan's court could be active after they died/were destroyed.
Except Morag-Hai, who's been hiding out on Terra since The Fall (this last line is a reference to a fun little crackpot theory that the Emperor is Morag-Hai in hiding).
(Also, Ycarne isn't Ynead being "reborn" in the same sense as the other Eldar gods - Ynead did not exist previously.)
Asurmen was definitely not a champion of anything pre Fall.
The idea of a civil war seems odd. Everyone is in a worse position after Gathering Storm than before except the Ynnari who just didn't exist. So why start a civil war when you're weakened unless it's the Ynnari starting it but that would be against their whole unity vibe.
pm713 wrote: Asurmen was definitely not a champion of anything pre Fall.
The idea of a civil war seems odd. Everyone is in a worse position after Gathering Storm than before except the Ynnari who just didn't exist. So why start a civil war when you're weakened unless it's the Ynnari starting it but that would be against their whole unity vibe.
Different Eldar factions or ineed different craftworlds fighting is not civil war, they're not one nation. And this sort of thing happens all the time. Also, I'm sure the Ynnari would create all sorts of tensions, it could be a religious conflict.
Perhaps they realized that the Ynnari storyline is rather dull/silly...as is the general "all Eldar should be friends" vibe. That goes against more or less everything when you're developing an enduring setting for a wargame. Those decisions should be made at the player level when they're designing a unique storyline for their custom craftworld, etc.
The other issue is that Ynnari actually highlights how bad off the Craftworld side is in terms of models. It really shows up how out of date those old plastic guardians are; whilst also shows up the problem of finecast aspect warriors. Sure the vehicles and warlocks are fine; but the rest - yeah - the almost entire rest of the Craftworld force is very out of date.
So you're trying to push a united soup force, whilst a the same time only having around half of its options actually being modern models.
pm713 wrote: Asurmen was definitely not a champion of anything pre Fall.
According to most fluff. But Crystal Sons of Asuryan fluff has the original Crystal Sons being beings Asuryan crafted and put under Asurmen's leadership, long before the fall. Which, of course, conflicts a lot of other fluff. Hence the qualifier.
pm713 wrote: Asurmen was definitely not a champion of anything pre Fall.
According to most fluff. But Crystal Sons of Asuryan fluff has the original Crystal Sons being beings Asuryan crafted and put under Asurmen's leadership, long before the fall. Which, of course, conflicts a lot of other fluff. Hence the qualifier.
Yes that is a big fluff conflict which I noted as well.
I think the only way around that short of totally discarding the Crystal Sons fluff is to say Asurmen was the name/title of an old champion of Asuryan from myth. Iliathin then took up that name and became the modern Asurmen Phoenix Lord.
Now I actually don't mind Eldar internecine religious dispute/conflict. It certainly would be a development in the otherwise static Eldar background. The Eldar are not a unified bloc and this is an opportunity to add more nuance and depth to them.
Basically all the Eldar kindreds think their way of life is the best and the way to survive.
Ynnari obviously want to awaken Ynnead.
Dark Eldar want to continue their soul draining.
Craftworlders believe in the superiority of the Path and think Ynnead is a false hope or even if they do believe in Ynnead, think the Ynnari are mistaken in trying to prematurely awaken Ynnead.
Harlequins have their own plans and try to enact the Laughing God's final act, that supposedly will trick Slaanesh into saving the Eldar instead of destroying them.
Exodites follow their own way of life. Like the Dark Eldar they seem to just want to continue their status quo.
Corsairs just want to have fun and exist between all the major factions.
Unlike much of the Imperium, Eldar actually can transition between these factions, which is why their conflict is also one of ideology and persuasion as much as it is of fighting. We have seen several kinds of transitions in the Black Library Eldar novels. We have seen Craftworlders give in to their desires and become Corsairs then Dark Eldar. We have seen a Dark Eldar turn to seek balance and become Craftworlder. We have seen one from an Exodite background become a Dark Eldar Incubus. Harlequins are described as recruiting from all the different Eldar kindreds, and similarly for Corsairs. The only transition we haven't seen is anyone becoming an Exodite.
The location of "Phoenix Rising" on that map suggests this is something to do with Iyanden. So maybe it is less about Asuryan and more about Iyanden trying for a turnaround in its fortunes.
I have posted in the past that I think the Phoenix lords are ripe to become avatars of the gods - ascending to daemon Princedom effectively.
Each one can very easily represent a non khaine god and they've been collecting their own Infinity circuits for 10000 years so they are cosmologically in the same realm as the yncarne, chaos gods etc.
IMO an epic finale for the rhana dandra is that they ascend as the new pantheon (a more warlike pantheon...) And the "end of the Eldar" is actually the end of this "age" or "cycle" of the Eldar and the start of an entirely new existence with a new pantheon.
Plus, having 6 avatars to choose from would be really cool
pm713 wrote: Asurmen was definitely not a champion of anything pre Fall.
The idea of a civil war seems odd. Everyone is in a worse position after Gathering Storm than before except the Ynnari who just didn't exist. So why start a civil war when you're weakened unless it's the Ynnari starting it but that would be against their whole unity vibe.
Different Eldar factions or ineed different craftworlds fighting is not civil war, they're not one nation. And this sort of thing happens all the time. Also, I'm sure the Ynnari would create all sorts of tensions, it could be a religious conflict.
They literally call it a civil war.
"he Aeldari are a psychically sensitive race, and the fragile balance between these disparate cultures has been disturbed by the Psychic Awakening. These factions have become embroiled in a full-scale internecine war for the future of their people"
Elbows wrote: Yeah internecine is more "within a group" kind of wording. I also laughed at their use of "the fragile balance between these disparate cultures...".
The Ynnari storyline is so abysmal.
not sure it has anything to do with the Ynnari. this sounds like something has altered the balance of power among the eldar, and that inevitably leads to conflcit as various intreasts jocky to take advantage of it
The only (Eldar) faction that wouldn't really fight itself currently would be Ynnari. Which they could fix easily. "Yvraine is not the ONE TRUE LEADER"? "We need Ynead to come to us in his full strength; these fools are trying to wake him *prematurely*!"? "We must only consume our bretherens' souls when absolutely necessary; those fools are growing fat on devouring hour Honored Dead!". There are plenty of plot points that could lead Ynnari to war amongst themselves, but it doesn't feel like Ynnari fluff is headed in that direction. I'm sure it'll change.
Of the remaining subfactions, CWE are the least likely to fight amongst themselves, but it certainly happens. Jain Zar won't be out for Asurmen's blood, but Biel Tan can certainly come to blows with Iyanden (or any other craftworld). I feel like Uthwe is the least likely, but even they would. On top of political concerns, there are also prophesies - CWE can be made to do anything by the skeins of fate.
(Side note: this is why I'd rather play my Marines or Harlies when playing against Craftworlders - my Uthwe force would rather disengage. Sure, Uthwe sometimes would fight, but it always feels wrong to me.)
Harliquens are unlikely to have a civil war; they're lead by a literal god literally in the (god-)flesh, physically present (in the webway not the Materium/Immaterium, though). So there's no "My understanding of Him varies from yours!" or poliitical strife. But they're Harliquens - their acts must be carried out. And those acts include actual violence upon eachother at times.
Exodites being at war with eachother is natural. Maybe some worlds are peaceful, but I'm sure other worlds of theirs are at war even with themselves more often than not.
Drukari can't have a "civil war" really - because being at war with eachother is their natural state. They aren't truly a unified faction. So them not fighting eachother is more notable than them fighting eachother.
Corsairs would obviously fight, too. When you're too much of an edgelord to stay on the Amish Worldships, you're too much of an edgelord not to fight eachother. Fighting is what they love.
Crone Worlders? They're basically demons. Of course they'll fight eachother.
It's either the sculpt or the way its posed but the extarch looks a bit masculine in the face for a banshee. Then again it might be the angle of the shot or the way the chest armour appears a little more neutral in shape compared to the old models.
That said great pose and great to see another shot. The finecase ones are also gone from the UK store
Interesting preview, looks like the ynarri will have variations on craftworlds unit options, walking a very different path, whatever that actually amounts too
Again, while I am floored to finally see a plastic aspect and can't wait to see if the rumors of Jain Zar are true, these sculpts just don't seem consistent with the level of work we've seen recently. I really hope it's just the posing and position of the camera, but I can't help but feel these still look dated.
Overread wrote: It's either the sculpt or the way its posed but the extarch looks a bit masculine in the face for a banshee. Then again it might be the angle of the shot or the way the chest armour appears a little more neutral in shape compared to the old models.
That said great pose and great to see another shot. The finecase ones are also gone from the UK store
It's partly they painted her as an older female and also that GW is really bad at making feminine faces.
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kingheff wrote: Interesting preview, looks like the ynarri will have variations on craftworlds unit options, walking a very different path, whatever that actually amounts too
Nvs wrote: Again, while I am floored to finally see a plastic aspect and can't wait to see if the rumors of Jain Zar are true, these sculpts just don't seem consistent with the level of work we've seen recently. I really hope it's just the posing and position of the camera, but I can't help but feel these still look dated.
I think is both the colour palette and the pose, the helmet less one ( wich just means it uses a forceshield for head protection according to Jes designs) looks way better just by the red adding into it, as it seems to give a different perspective than the almost monochrome bone colour of the armor.
that's right too, aspects aren't gender specific as any sex can be part of those, only the Banshees armor are decorated as all women due the lore behind them.
Kanluwen wrote: Isn't it that the Aspects aren't gender specific, but the armor might be?
Could very well be that the Exarch is meant to be a male.
It definitely is meant to be male.
Hopefully since this is a full plastic kit with exactly 1 weapon option, they've got enough space on the sprue to give us a female head as well. Because as of right now, there is no plastic bit for a female CWE head we could use to convert.
I'm getting more and more excited. It's funny really because I've always loved the 3rd edition spade-head banshees more so than the 4th edition sculpts that they're just now retiring - but the fact that these are coming in plastic, I'm just overjoyed that they still look like proper Banshees so the fact that they don't look like my favourite iteration has barely even crossed my mind. I'm having to tell myself not to buy too many of them because my wallet will weep if they do more aspects any time soon.
I'm not particularly bothered about the bare head - where there's a helmeted option I'll always go that way. Plus since the writeup describes the bare head as being for the Ynnari, well, I'm pure Asuryani and always will be. The bare heads will live in my bitz collection forevermore.
Lord Perversor wrote: that's right too, aspects aren't gender specific as any sex can be part of those, only the Banshees armor are decorated as all women due the lore behind them.
Yeah, the Banshees represent a female aspect and as such they have traditionally attracted female eldar - but they get a number of male recruits as well. All of them wear the stylised armour which represents the female eldar form. I headcanon it the same way for the other aspects in that they attract both male and female recruits, and all of them wear the 'male' styled armour of those shrines. It's why I'm always left slightly bemused when people go out of their way to make 'female' eldar (often psykers), and do so merely by giving them huge knockers. As far as I'm concerned, the regular models could be either gender. I explain the 1-in-4 guardians with boobplate in the same fashion as the Banshees, i.e. that particular set of guardian armour has been styled based on the female eldar form rather than the male.
Bellerophon wrote: I'm getting more and more excited. It's funny really because I've always loved the 3rd edition spade-head banshees more so than the 4th edition sculpts that they're just now retiring - but the fact that these are coming in plastic, I'm just overjoyed that they still look like proper Banshees so the fact that they don't look like my favourite iteration has barely even crossed my mind. I'm having to tell myself not to buy too many of them because my wallet will weep if they do more aspects any time soon.
I'm not particularly bothered about the bare head - where there's a helmeted option I'll always go that way. Plus since the writeup describes the bare head as being for the Ynnari, well, I'm pure Asuryani and always will be. The bare heads will live in my bitz collection forevermore.
Lord Perversor wrote: that's right too, aspects aren't gender specific as any sex can be part of those, only the Banshees armor are decorated as all women due the lore behind them.
Yeah, the Banshees represent a female aspect and as such they have traditionally attracted female eldar - but they get a number of male recruits as well. All of them wear the stylised armour which represents the female eldar form. I headcanon it the same way for the other aspects in that they attract both male and female recruits, and all of them wear the 'male' styled armour of those shrines. It's why I'm always left slightly bemused when people go out of their way to make 'female' eldar (often psykers), and do so merely by giving them huge knockers. As far as I'm concerned, the regular models could be either gender. I explain the 1-in-4 guardians with boobplate in the same fashion as the Banshees, i.e. that particular set of guardian armour has been styled based on the female eldar form rather than the male.
I've got the 2nd ed metal Farseer who has a giant moose head, so I guess their armor was styled around the moose eldar form rather than either the male or the female.
Nice miniatures, but if they're switching proper Eldar over to Ynnari I'm definitely done. Will consider snagging some models/rules for home-brewed 40K or something, but the Ynnari storyline is so gak I can't support that.
Elbows wrote: Nice miniatures, but if they're switching proper Eldar over to Ynnari I'm definitely done. Will consider snagging some models/rules for home-brewed 40K or something, but the Ynnari storyline is so gak I can't support that.
It seems they went middle of tje road by making the ynarri option part of the kit but also appeasing the traditionalists.
This looks like the first step of "normalising" ynnarified CWE and it will seep it into the rest of the range/lore/culture like a tumour..paving the way of full primarisation of the eldar. *sighh* ohh well this was going to happen sooner or later. At least that day is a good couple years from now and for now they let us have options. But if this is the price we have to pay to get new CWE kits. So be it.
more likely they're taking steps towards making Ynnari have their own distinct visual style and supporting that with options in a kit. It's a sign of the Ynnari moving towards having their own distinct identity rather then just being "eldar soup with special characters"
Jes Goodwin's concept sketches for the Exarch of each Aspect included a helmetless version so I wouldn't say that helmetless version is necessarily always Ynnari.
So 6 Howling Banshee Exarch powers to choose from, normally it seems at the expense of War Shout (unless using the Exemplar of the Banshee Shrine). I wonder if that is the new thing now going forward for eventually the other Aspects as well.
It seems like the Exarch powers allow the Exarch to focus on an aspect of their Aspect (pun intended). Piercing Strike and arming with an executioner seems to basically focus on Jain Zarr's Blade of Destruction. I imagine another power might focus on the mirrorswords and about sheer number of attacks rather than high strength attacks.
So what do people think of Piercing Strike? Exarch will then have 2 A at S7 -3 D3. But the rest of the squad may still underperform.
Iracundus wrote: Jes Goodwin's concept sketches for the Exarch of each Aspect included a helmetless version so I wouldn't say that helmetless version is necessarily always Ynnari.
So 6 Howling Banshee Exarch powers to choose from, normally it seems at the expense of War Shout (unless using the Exemplar of the Banshee Shrine). I wonder if that is the new thing now going forward for eventually the other Aspects as well.
It seems like the Exarch powers allow the Exarch to focus on an aspect of their Aspect (pun intended). Piercing Strike and arming with an executioner seems to basically focus on Jain Zarr's Blade of Destruction. I imagine another power might focus on the mirrorswords and about sheer number of attacks rather than high strength attacks.
So what do people think of Piercing Strike? Exarch will then have 2 A at S7 -3 D3. But the rest of the squad may still underperform.
Its not an un-imaginative "reroll all the stuffs" ability so it makes it a step in the right direction, I like it.
However, 2 attacks hitting on 3+ is still only 2 attacks hitting on 3+... damage being 3 is nice but unless they up the Exarchs WS to 2+ (as they should as well as extra attacks on the charge) I don't see it making that much of a difference and seems a bit meh. But, having 2 of those dudes in their 5 man squads jump out of a WS on a suicide run to cut down enemy characters sounds like a useful tool providing they don't cost it stupid points. I'm looking forward to what other traits/weapons you can give the exarch
Its very interesting peek into things to come. We might even end up with a very fleshed out model and rules for all for the aspects. Maybe they will bring the trickle back.. who knows!
Maybe codex 2.0 is on the horizon with all of the neat rules and tricks for aspects and exarchs. Either way I will be buying and running some banshees for sure! I'm looking forward to them
any army that gets a large model release can proably expect a codex 2.0 (weather it'll be ala space marines. or chaos space marines though is the real question) 1 new kit or so makes a new codex immediatly doubtful. as evidanced by the lack of a new admech codex
Providing they don't half arse it and we get a slam dunk of all the aspects (and maybe PLs 2.0 codex would likely follow) that wouldn't be out of realms of probability but I wont be getting my hopes up.
Lets hope they don't stop on just 2 kits(we know at least one more kit is incoming as the scenic base from the rumour thread does not match the exarch) and do what needs to be done for the pointy ears.
I am not sure about this. Six abilities for a single Aspect, that's too much of a rule bloat. If every aspect has the same it's crazy rule bloat, more than DE drugs.
GW trying to feed me Ynnari on a little spoon carefully, I'll eat one for the case of plastic aspects, but that's how they have you and then own you, do they?
Face without helmet just has too rad highlights, make it softer and it's fine. Yeah not anime elf maiden with flowing hair but what do you expect. Delicious flat chest on Exarch however pairs her in memes with Idranel I guess.
Shadenuat wrote: I am not sure about this. Six abilities for a single Aspect, that's too much of a rule bloat. If every aspect has the same it's crazy rule bloat, more than DE drugs.
GW trying to feed me Ynnari on a little spoon carefully, I'll eat one for the case of plastic aspects, but that's how they have you and then own you, do they?
Face without helmet just has too rad highlights, make it softer and it's fine. Yeah not anime elf maiden with flowing hair but what do you expect. Delicious flat chest on Exarch however pairs her in memes with Idranel I guess.
...will Jain Zar have all 6 Aspect Powers?
What do you mean? I don't understand what you said man..
Shadenuat wrote: I am not sure about this. Six abilities for a single Aspect, that's too much of a rule bloat. If every aspect has the same it's crazy rule bloat, more than DE drugs.
GW trying to feed me Ynnari on a little spoon carefully, I'll eat one for the case of plastic aspects, but that's how they have you and then own you, do they?
Face without helmet just has too rad highlights, make it softer and it's fine. Yeah not anime elf maiden with flowing hair but what do you expect. Delicious flat chest on Exarch however pairs her in memes with Idranel I guess.
...will Jain Zar have all 6 Aspect Powers?
What do you mean? I don't understand what you said man..
(Have you been drinking buddy?)
I think he's implying Ynnari options is all part of a master plan to force yannari on people content with craft worlds.. or something
Its just that I didn't really get the gist of any of what you said not one specific thing
Maybe its just my brain going to sleep. It is nearly 5AM.
I also think 6 is too many. Because in typical GW fashion 1-2 will get used as they will be much batter than the rest and nobody will remember other powers exists creating needless bloat. Fingers crossed 6 traits will mean 6 load out options...But I wont hold my breath.
I don't think Jain Zair will get acess to 6 of the aspect traits.
But I hope she will get different style modes. Something along the lines of:
1. Power Strike - + xx STr +xx Damage +XX AP and -1 hit penalty 2. Neutral strike - exploding hits on 5+ and +1A or something 3. The flurry strike - +3A
Or whatever the top tier banshee exarchs perk will be but slightly better.
All wishy washy stuff aside.
Do we think this will mean a new Data Sheet for banshees? As they seem to be adding abilities this seems possible.
Argive wrote: Do we think this will mean a new Data Sheet for banshees? As they seem to be adding abilities this seems possible.
Given the Exarch is changing, yes - a new datasheet will be required for the unit.
Whether we see changes to anything but the Exarch? I don't know.
I'd like to see their power sword turned into a unit-specific weapon (Banshee blade?) with an increased S value - part of the reason they were deadly in 2nd edition was the S5 (from memory) of the 2nd edition power sword, meaning they wounded SM on 3's rather than 5's. I'm not sure if the basic Banshee needs more A - they always struck me as a scalpel, not a sledgehammer - but that might also be an option.
Equally, the Scorpion Chainsword needs the standard +1A rule adding to it - the unit is meant to be a stealthy blender, as far as I can see. Not sure if it needs AP or not, but 3A each for Scorpions would be a start.
Iracundus wrote: Jes Goodwin's concept sketches for the Exarch of each Aspect included a helmetless version so I wouldn't say that helmetless version is necessarily always Ynnari.
So 6 Howling Banshee Exarch powers to choose from, normally it seems at the expense of War Shout (unless using the Exemplar of the Banshee Shrine). I wonder if that is the new thing now going forward for eventually the other Aspects as well.
It seems like the Exarch powers allow the Exarch to focus on an aspect of their Aspect (pun intended). Piercing Strike and arming with an executioner seems to basically focus on Jain Zarr's Blade of Destruction. I imagine another power might focus on the mirrorswords and about sheer number of attacks rather than high strength attacks.
So what do people think of Piercing Strike? Exarch will then have 2 A at S7 -3 D3. But the rest of the squad may still underperform.
Yeah I've always wanted helmet less aspects after seeing the those sketches right form the beginning. I love the exarch I'll build her like that wether I use craft worlds or Ynnari, not bothered either way. Interested to see what the other options are that they talked about.
I think looking around social media its being examined to death because we have been waiting so long for plastic aspects and we have three images and two models to look at- they aways look better in person and with your own painting scheme.
Its all sounding interesting so far- exarch powers making a return is great. I still really hope there are a couple more aspects to see with this release. Banshees are definitely first and soon as they are off the online store [uk].
Quick question regarding psychic awakening in general: I've heard (non reliable source) that every faction involved in the psychic awakening will get at least some new models.
Do we actually have confimation from GW on this, or can we just speculate? I mean I guess it is fair to assume that every faction who is involved will at least get some new rules, but I really hope there will be new models for everyone also. (first in line should obviously eldar, because they deserve it the most)
Tiberias wrote: Quick question regarding psychic awakening in general: I've heard (non reliable source) that every faction involved in the psychic awakening will get at least some new models.
Do we actually have confimation from GW on this, or can we just speculate? I mean I guess it is fair to assume that every faction who is involved will at least get some new rules, but I really hope there will be new models for everyone also. (first in line should obviously eldar, because they deserve it the most)
No. GW said each of the listed factions (which I believe was most of the factions, but not quite all) would get SOMETHING new. Not always models. So sometimes, just rules.
It's basically the next roll out of models for 40K wrapped up with a campaign story to make the marketing more interesting. If anything it might just be GW addressing and removing a lot of the remaining finecast in the range so some armies will get a lot more than others. Armies like Eldar with a large number of finecast troop models might well get a lot more sculpts whilst forces like Tyranids with only one or two might see very little addition or change.
GW might also use this to add a few new models to some armies not just replace finecast.
Tiberias wrote: Quick question regarding psychic awakening in general: I've heard (non reliable source) that every faction involved in the psychic awakening will get at least some new models.
Do we actually have confimation from GW on this, or can we just speculate? I mean I guess it is fair to assume that every faction who is involved will at least get some new rules, but I really hope there will be new models for everyone also. (first in line should obviously eldar, because they deserve it the most)
They didnt say everyone will get new models, they said everyone will get new rules and there will be some new models.
GW probably don't know themselves that now there will be no end to jokes of why it was male Banshee who went Ynnari as well as Agent Smith memes. And that means there is still not a single female head in whole Craftworlds line.
I demand Dark Reapers to be lead by female with flowing anime hair then.
GW probably don't know themselves that now there will be no end to jokes of why it was male Banshee who went Ynnari as well as Agent Smith memes. And that means there is still not a single female head in whole Craftworlds line.
I demand Dark Reapers to be lead by female with flowing anime hair then.
I'm actually glad they've done this. It shows that, no, Banshees do not HAVE to be female, but since the banshees of their mythos ARE female, even male Aeldari who are Banshees wear the feminine plate armour.
But I certainly hear what you are saying about not enough "proper" female heads for CWE. Luckily, DE have them in spades, and even some Daemonette heads look decent on CWE bodies (as heretical as that is).
By not enough you mean none whatsoever, even though people would probably kill for plastic Macha model, and not just Eldar players.
I'm actually glad they've done this. It shows that, no, Banshees do not HAVE to be female, but since the banshees of their mythos ARE female, even male Aeldari who are Banshees wear the feminine plate armour.
But Exarch Smith is Ynnari, and cares gak for tradition or whatever, and also doesn't even wear helmet, even though supposedly Exarches are merged with their armor and shouldn't remove helmets I think. So I'm not sure that's representative of anything Aspect-wise actually.
Iracundus wrote: Jes Goodwin's concept sketches for the Exarch of each Aspect included a helmetless version so I wouldn't say that helmetless version is necessarily always Ynnari.
So 6 Howling Banshee Exarch powers to choose from, normally it seems at the expense of War Shout (unless using the Exemplar of the Banshee Shrine). I wonder if that is the new thing now going forward for eventually the other Aspects as well.
It seems like the Exarch powers allow the Exarch to focus on an aspect of their Aspect (pun intended). Piercing Strike and arming with an executioner seems to basically focus on Jain Zarr's Blade of Destruction. I imagine another power might focus on the mirrorswords and about sheer number of attacks rather than high strength attacks.
So what do people think of Piercing Strike? Exarch will then have 2 A at S7 -3 D3. But the rest of the squad may still underperform.
His sketches from RT might have, but 2nd Ed made it clear that exarchs fuse with their armour.
They've got 3 main areas: scream, speed, damage. I can see one or two for each area.
I hope that Jain ZAR gets them all/can choose which ones to have active during her turn. It would be weird for the creator of the aspect to not be able use all her creations...
In fact I think it would be in keeping with the Eldar way of war for the exarchs to be able to choose what skills they will be "equipping" at the beginning of the game - precision application of force, rather than rocking up to a swarm with pointless stab-fu.
I'm hoping we see actual model options and not just rules though.
But Exarch Smith is Ynnari, and cares gak for tradition or whatever, and also doesn't even wear helmet, even though supposedly Exarches are merged with their armor and shouldn't remove helmets I think. So I'm not sure that's representative of anything Aspect-wise actually.
Helmets and War Masks are two radically different things.
Jes Goodwin's more recent sketches show helmetless Exarchs. These are collected in things like The Eldar Collection sketchbook.
Just google for Jes Goodwin Exarch or Banshee sketch and you will see sketches dating from 2005. There is one helmetless sketch for an Exarch of each Aspect. This predates the Ynnari but is well after RT.
One example:
So now it is Exarchs are not necessarily fused to their armor, at least not in the early stages. If people want fused Exarchs, just use the helmet version.
Ynnari: Have 3 official models, have been nerfed 6,000 times since release, current official rules only available in out of date white dwarf.
*Get one single fully optional bit in a plastic kit CWE players have been demanding for eons which comes out completely un-redesigned with zero ynnari aesthetic*
CWE Grognards: "GW is FORCING Ynnari down our THROATS!!!!!!!"
Come on, guys. "Eldar always wear hats because otherwise they go crazy and btw they are only suits of armor" is a flimsy lore justification for not giving them any variation in their kits.
I particularly love "Eldar wear their special war cone hats to suppress emotion during battle so they don't hurt their uwu smol bean feelings"
"oh except for those bare headed ones in the guardian kits I guess whoopsie those guys get PTSD."
"Also please ignore the cone hats that drukhari wear, those cone hats are emotion ENHANCING cones. It's the spikes you see, those are special feeling enhancer emotion spikes. Also their totally identical looking armor has HOOKS and BARBS because they like their coffee black just like their metal."
Helmets and War Masks are two radically different things.
Except that armor still matters so much that there are hour long rituals to don them. So no Masks are not non-special either.
Just read Path of the Warrior and what these suits mean for them when they don them.
CWE Grognards: "GW is FORCING Ynnari down our THROATS
They do. Everything major about Eldar later was Ynnari. And now even Craftworlds release specifies that this option is for Ynnari. And you can't play Eldar without being called out as TFG because of Ynnari rules legacy. Even if you never even bought the fething box.
But Exarch Smith is Ynnari, and cares gak for tradition or whatever, and also doesn't even wear helmet, even though supposedly Exarches are merged with their armor and shouldn't remove helmets I think. So I'm not sure that's representative of anything Aspect-wise actually.
Helmets and War Masks are two radically different things.
Bingo. Helmet is a helmet. War Mask is a psychological barrier that Aspects erect in their minds to protect them from the horrors of war. Once they've had their "fill" as an Aspect, they remove this mask and return to normal CW society, leaving the Path of the Warrior.
Exarch cannot remove this War Mask and are thus trapped on the path. But they can absolutely remove their helmets. How else would they eat?
Shadenuat wrote: By not enough you mean none whatsoever, even though people would probably kill for plastic Macha model, and not just Eldar players.
I'm actually glad they've done this. It shows that, no, Banshees do not HAVE to be female, but since the banshees of their mythos ARE female, even male Aeldari who are Banshees wear the feminine plate armour.
But Exarch Smith is Ynnari, and cares gak for tradition or whatever, and also doesn't even wear helmet, even though supposedly Exarches are merged with their armor and shouldn't remove helmets I think. So I'm not sure that's representative of anything Aspect-wise actually.
Not sure there are any soulstones on the helmets themselves. I, too, think Exarchs should have helmets - but DAs have had unhelmetted Exarch options for a long time (which is the only other plastic Aspect).
As for Smith not caring about tradition; he's still an Exarch. The Exarch doesn't care about tradition *or anything else* beyond the Aspect. They're completely obsessed. So a Ynnari Aspect might be different from a CWE Aspect, but a Ynnari Exarch won't be more different than a CWE Exarch.
Shadenuat wrote: By not enough you mean none whatsoever, even though people would probably kill for plastic Macha model, and not just Eldar players.
I'm actually glad they've done this. It shows that, no, Banshees do not HAVE to be female, but since the banshees of their mythos ARE female, even male Aeldari who are Banshees wear the feminine plate armour.
But Exarch Smith is Ynnari, and cares gak for tradition or whatever, and also doesn't even wear helmet, even though supposedly Exarches are merged with their armor and shouldn't remove helmets I think. So I'm not sure that's representative of anything Aspect-wise actually.
Not sure there are any soulstones on the helmets themselves. I, too, think Exarchs should have helmets - but DAs have had unhelmetted Exarch options for a long time (which is the only other plastic Aspect).
While I personally don't like the helmetless versions, the idea seems to have been Jes Goodwin's since at least 2004:
If people can find one of the old Eldar Codex videos with Jes Goodwin being interviewed, he even explains his reasoning a little. Basically, that while normal Aspect Warriors put on their psychological war mask with the donning of their helmets, the Exarch no longer needs the physical helmet for their psychological war mask (since it is always on), and force fields are given as the reason for no loss of protection.
Helmets and War Masks are two radically different things.
Except that armor still matters so much that there are hour long rituals to don them. So no Masks are not non-special either.
Just read Path of the Warrior and what these suits mean for them when they don them.
An Eldar who becomes an Exarch only dons their armor once. The Exarch only dons their armor once per Eldar that joins them. All these souls then are stored in soulstones on the armor. If there are soulstones in the helmet, then losing/not wearing the helmet should be impossible. But if not, it's debateable.
CWE Grognards: "GW is FORCING Ynnari down our THROATS
They do. Everything major about Eldar later was Ynnari. And now even Craftworlds release specifies that this option is for Ynnari. And you can't play Eldar without being called out as TFG because of Ynnari rules legacy.
Everythign major about Eldar lately was Ynnari, up until this model. This model is primarily Craftworld in design, with a few options for Ynnari. Hopefully this is a sign that Craftworlders won't be forced into Ynnari, and that GW will provide CWE lore that isn't Ynnari-focused.
As for being called TFG because Ynnari, I remember being told how OP my 17ppm Dire Avengers were in my Uthwe host because Ynnari could soulburst...
Shadenuat wrote: By not enough you mean none whatsoever, even though people would probably kill for plastic Macha model, and not just Eldar players.
I'm actually glad they've done this. It shows that, no, Banshees do not HAVE to be female, but since the banshees of their mythos ARE female, even male Aeldari who are Banshees wear the feminine plate armour.
But Exarch Smith is Ynnari, and cares gak for tradition or whatever, and also doesn't even wear helmet, even though supposedly Exarches are merged with their armor and shouldn't remove helmets I think. So I'm not sure that's representative of anything Aspect-wise actually.
Not sure there are any soulstones on the helmets themselves. I, too, think Exarchs should have helmets - but DAs have had unhelmetted Exarch options for a long time (which is the only other plastic Aspect).
While I personally don't like the helmetless versions, the idea seems to have been Jes Goodwin's since at least 2004:
If people can find one of the old Eldar Codex videos with Jes Goodwin being interviewed, he even explains his reasoning a little. Basically, that while normal Aspect Warriors put on their psychological war mask with the donning of their helmets, the Exarch no longer needs the physical helmet for their psychological war mask (since it is always on), and force fields are given as the reason for no loss of protection.
Well, they do have a 4++ "Nope" save, from no discernable gear. But that's only DA Exarchs, Banshees don't have that.
Except that armor still matters so much that there are hour long rituals to don them. So no Masks are not non-special either.
Just read Path of the Warrior and what these suits mean for them when they don them.
I know exactly what the armor means. The fact that you dont understand the difference between a physical object and the psychological construct that literally makes an Aspect Warrior an Aspect Warrior speaks volumes as to why you're hilariously overreacting to an aesthetic choice by the GW design team.
No loss of protection as compared to having a helmet to protect the head.
One of the sketches has text saying the frame projects a force field. In other words, the seemingly bareheaded Exarch has as much protection as if they were wearing their helmet, so they would not be any more vulnerable to headshots than their regular armored helmeted selves.
The Dire Avenger Battle Fortune 4++ is basically supernatural from the combined power of the souls in the Exarch twisting fate.
Helmets and War Masks are two radically different things.
Except that armor still matters so much that there are hour long rituals to don them. So no Masks are not non-special either.
Just read Path of the Warrior and what these suits mean for them when they don them.
CWE Grognards: "GW is FORCING Ynnari down our THROATS
They do. Everything major about Eldar later was Ynnari. And now even Craftworlds release specifies that this option is for Ynnari. And you can't play Eldar without being called out as TFG because of Ynnari rules legacy. Even if you never even bought the fething box.
A fething white dwarf magazine and a single headswap option in a single kit is "EVERYTHING" now? Since the end of 7th edition? EVERYTHING has been Ynnari? I must have missed that in all the lore from all the three different eldar codexes and how none of those codexes had any rules for Ynnari at all.
Other than GW saying that bareheaded version is Ynnari, I do not see anything in that head option that makes it Ynnari. Ynnari use red as a color but so do Banshees. The head option could just as easily represent a regular Craftworld Banshee Exarch IMO.
Sterling191 wrote: I know exactly what the armor means. The fact that you dont understand the difference between a physical object and the psychological construct that literally makes an Aspect Warrior an Aspect Warrior speaks volumes as to why you're hilariously overreacting to an aesthetic choice by the GW design team.
I am not sure you understand what is an overreaction or isn't, but it's true I am p. hilarious.
the_scotsman wrote: A fething white dwarf magazine and a single headswap option in a single kit is "EVERYTHING" now? Since the end of 7th edition? EVERYTHING has been Ynnari? I must have missed that in all the lore from all the three different eldar codexes and how none of those codexes had any rules for Ynnari at all.
Well you wouldn't miss it if you actually read a Codex, like for example Prince Yriel becoming Ynnari; or a few books about Craftworlds, like Iyanden going on a trip with Ynnari, or Saim-Hann in Wild Rider book gettin pwned by Necrons if not for Ynnari etc.
Also calling people grognards on dakka is really hilarious. It's like going on anime reddit and saying there's too many weebs or something like that.
Galef wrote: But they can absolutely remove their helmets. How else would they eat?
Idk, how do Phoenix Lords? They don't need to eat, neither do probably Wraithguard eh?
Sterling191 wrote: I know exactly what the armor means. The fact that you dont understand the difference between a physical object and the psychological construct that literally makes an Aspect Warrior an Aspect Warrior speaks volumes as to why you're hilariously overreacting to an aesthetic choice by the GW design team.
I am not sure you understand what is an overreaction or isn't, but it's true I am p. hilarious.
the_scotsman wrote: A fething white dwarf magazine and a single headswap option in a single kit is "EVERYTHING" now? Since the end of 7th edition? EVERYTHING has been Ynnari? I must have missed that in all the lore from all the three different eldar codexes and how none of those codexes had any rules for Ynnari at all.
Well you wouldn't miss it if you actually read a Codex, like for example Prince Yriel becoming Ynnari; or a few books about Craftworlds, like Iyanden going on a trip with Ynnari, or Saim-Hann in Wild Rider book gettin pwned by Necrons if not for Ynnari etc.
Also calling people grognards on dakka is really hilarious. It's like going on anime reddit and saying there's too many weebs or something like that.
Galef wrote: But they can absolutely remove their helmets. How else would they eat?
Idk, how do Phoenix Lords? They don't need to eat, neither do probably Wraithguard eh?
You can be a 40k fan without being a grognard. One requires a particular set of behaviors, attitudes, and usually in person, appearances and scents.
Implying that someone is not a True Fan tm because clearly they haven't read the extended universe material the way you have and interpreted it the way you did. That'd be a grognard behavior right there.
Ynnari are obviously a large, lore-shifting event. In the actual game of warhammer 40,000, however, they've been continuously diminishing in importance since the edition dropped and they have gotten literally zero model support since they were first conceptualized.
Everyone is always going to hate xenos armies for everything, Ynnari is just a new excuse. I've gotten gak from SM players for my Dark Eldar army in 7th because of things TAU could do. Outside of tournaments, where people will just select the best subfaction trait/designation for their faction, I've never seen a Ynnari player, and I've played hundreds of games since the gathering storm books were put out. Ynnari were about as impactful as a fart in a manure field.
Not sure how Codex is extended universe material or Thorpe is, even if I dislike what he writes, he's like the only source of material except Codex out there.
For me Ynnari was like, the hottest stuff and everything, everyone bought the Triumvirate, guess we're just grognards.
This might be a 'PoserMcBogus is drunk on a tuesday again post', but, has it occurred to anyone that the man head on the Banshee might also have a female, un-helmeted option?
Looking at the two photos, it looks like the face is a thin, plate-like part that goes at the front of the head. I imagine, if they're pushing it as a multiple builds character, that they might include a female face, too, and are perhaps pushing the odd man-head deep-lore-background now to generate online chatter? It seems a little insane to me, that while sure, it exists in the fluff, why they would make a male banshee for the mostly female portion of the mostly male part of the Eldar line, when they could as easily do so for a different aspect, and have recently been pushing for slightly more non-"white male" representation in their lines.
As much as GW's Facebook pages seem to moderate comments pretty tightly, I wonder if they might not try to make sure everyone on the forums is discussing an upcoming release by pushing out a PR pic that, while showing a nice mini, also seems to have an odd-looking feature to the point of ridiculousness - I mean, what does he keep in the boob-plate bits? Snacks? What foul xeno snacks is he hiding? GW, we want answers!
posermcbogus wrote: This might be a 'PoserMcBogus is drunk on a tuesday again post', but, has it occurred to anyone that the man head on the Banshee might also have a female, un-helmeted option?
Looking at the two photos, it looks like the face is a thin, plate-like part that goes at the front of the head. I imagine, if they're pushing it as a multiple builds character, that they might include a female face, too, and are perhaps pushing the odd man-head deep-lore-background now to generate online chatter? It seems a little insane to me, that while sure, it exists in the fluff, why they would make a male banshee for the mostly female portion of the mostly male part of the Eldar line, when they could as easily do so for a different aspect, and have recently been pushing for slightly more non-"white male" representation in their lines.
As much as GW's Facebook pages seem to moderate comments pretty tightly, I wonder if they might not try to make sure everyone on the forums is discussing an upcoming release by pushing out a PR pic that, while showing a nice mini, also seems to have an odd-looking feature to the point of ridiculousness - I mean, what does he keep in the boob-plate bits? Snacks? What foul xeno snacks is he hiding? GW, we want answers!
I have the wild guessing GW may try to bring 2 versions of same unit as they did in Aos with Khymerae and Melusai.
So maybe a normal Craftworld version with helmets and Ynnari version with different weapons and without helmets? or just wild guessing.
Here's a question the force field theory doesn't address - how does a Howling Banshee Exarch who isn't wearing the Banshee Mask generate the "aural assault" described on pg 54 of the current Craftworld book (and in pretty much every other book describing Howling Banshees I can think of)?
Dysartes wrote: Here's a question the force field theory doesn't address - how does a Howling Banshee Exarch who isn't wearing the Banshee Mask generate the "aural assault" described on pg 54 of the current Craftworld book (and in pretty much every other book describing Howling Banshees I can think of)?
I dunno maybe you could look at the model and find out.
(hint: it's the little chin speaker doodads that have always done that and are still on the banshee without the mask)
posermcbogus wrote: As much as GW's Facebook pages seem to moderate comments pretty tightly, I wonder if they might not try to make sure everyone on the forums is discussing an upcoming release by pushing out a PR pic that, while showing a nice mini, also seems to have an odd-looking feature to the point of ridiculousness - I mean, what does he keep in the boob-plate bits? Snacks? What foul xeno snacks is he hiding? GW, we want answers!
I've seen some trolly arguments about how the only female line of models in the Codex which has mostly male models gets a male character without an option to build a proper female one, man showing girls how to fight and so on.
It's p. dumb but when you think about, it is odd that only helmetless option for mostly female squad is male.
I honestly think it was intended to be a female sculpted face...it just came out terribly. It is, however, pretty silly to not include a simple genderless torso for the Exarch if you're going to feature a male Exarch head in the box.
I don't actually recall any fluff/lore indicating that all Howling Banshee armour was female, merely that it was a heavily feminine aspect, etc.
I think the helmetless Exarch head is ugly anyway, so it's not a major concern.
I know I will be picking up at least a couple boxes (lets hope they don't come in a wake the dead type box..)
Sigh. Another Xeno release? Why do Games-Workshop hate the Imperium so much? When are we going to get some love eh? I'm done with Games-Workshop, etc. etc...
Ah, I'm kidding of course. I'm delighted that Aspect Warriors are getting a redo, and Banshees have always been my favorite Aspect, so it's a great place to start. I feel like it's a safe bet to presume that all aspects will be getting a makeover. The only question is, how long will it take? Do you think we'll see a huge multi-week release campaign or will they be drip fed, one-at-a-time over the next couple of years?
