Switch Theme:

Plastic Eldar Kits!? -The world must be ending! Eldar specifi Psychic Awakening N&R - P.24 Box set  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Bellerophon wrote:
Warhammer Community Link

Specifically, this bit:

The gemstones on Eldar models have become an integral part of the look of the race, tied to the Fall, the birth of Slaanesh and how they cheat death.

Not all the bumps and lumps on Eldar technology is, in fact, a gemstone though. Some are simply blisters of electronics and hardware, as Jes Goodwin explains: “Every blip on an Eldar model doesn’t have to be painted like a gem – they’re not all gems. If it’s got a setting around it, it’s a gem. If it’s hasn’t, it’s a blip.” But painters who adore a challenge fret not, “It’s not a hard and fast rule.”

The studio clearly agrees with that position - see the models in the Codex and on the webstore - the 'Eavy Metal paintjobs on just about every model paint most of the bumps the same colour as the rest of the armour, and only do the ones in a setting as gems. There's one or two exceptions, like a couple of blips on the Wraithlord that they paint as gems, but mostly they stick to the blips being painted the same as the armour.


That's awesome - thank you.

Been slowly putting together some Eldar stuff - picked up a box of Jetbikes today - but hadn't settled on a scheme. Having this steer about all the random bumps will make painting them easier when I do settle on one (yeah, going the not-a-Craftworld-with-rules route - trickier to come up with a scheme I like than I thought).

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






 Crimson wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:

In this edition at least they are cheap enough you can field them for less that 200 pts. Cheap specialized HQs with cool rules are easier to balance and easier to run in the army, because even if they're kinda underwhelming, they don't take that many points away.

I really don't care. I want the Phoenix Lords to be utterly terrifying primarch-level mythic heroes, and if that means that they need to be Lords of War and cost over three hundred points, so be it!


He's got a point. Pheonix Lords are mythic heroes and should be outclassing most HQs by a fair margin (and should be leading a horde of their own aspect, not popping up on their own).

   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.

Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.

Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/31 20:02:19


 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 John Prins wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:

In this edition at least they are cheap enough you can field them for less that 200 pts. Cheap specialized HQs with cool rules are easier to balance and easier to run in the army, because even if they're kinda underwhelming, they don't take that many points away.

I really don't care. I want the Phoenix Lords to be utterly terrifying primarch-level mythic heroes, and if that means that they need to be Lords of War and cost over three hundred points, so be it!


He's got a point. Pheonix Lords are mythic heroes and should be outclassing most HQs by a fair margin (and should be leading a horde of their own aspect, not popping up on their own).


To be fair, Marine characters are also made up in the fluff as walking heroes, masters of the battlefied, and feared by all. Granted that Phoenix Lords have a better claim to that status, but they are far from the only thing on the table that doesn’t live up to their own legend.

I’d personally like to keep them lower cost and playable, rather than the LoW level. But if they re-did them at primarch level, I’d be first in line to carve a bloody trail across the table with Jain Zar.

   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Nevelon wrote:

To be fair, Marine characters are also made up in the fluff as walking heroes, masters of the battlefied, and feared by all. Granted that Phoenix Lords have a better claim to that status, but they are far from the only thing on the table that doesn’t live up to their own legend.

My main army is Marines, but I think the Phoenix Lords should easily outclass any non-Primarch marine. They're ten thousand year old magical superbeings. The marine heroes should be on par with the Exarchs (which should be far more powerful than they currently are.)

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Disclaimer: Minor Rant Ahead

Actually I take that back, not really a rant...but...a critique of current Phoenix Lords?

Early in 8th edition, Phoenix Lords were decidedly okay. They have not, in any way, kept up with the power creep of the game. They only recently finally had some points adjustments (before they were kinda poor...and expensive). As many people have pointed out, a Phoenix Lord is still 125-175 points or so, and that's more than a squad of their own Aspects in many cases - while rarely bringing enough to justify their cost.

Asurmen: One vaguely worth considering. Why? Because he has an invulnerable save, and can grant one to nearby Aspects. His sword is quite decent, but his guns...he gets four shots of a shuriken catapult. That's akin to a Primarch being armed with a bolt gun or a couple of bolt pistols. However, Asurmen is a bit more survivable and gives out a decent buff. I'd say he's a 7/10 character. He is rather pricey.

Baharroth: This is a tough one, but he more or less gets a pass. He's the cheapest I think around 110. He is all about leadership, buffs and debuffs. He's quick, flies around and has a crap gun. His sword is decidedly okay. Can deepstrike, and can maybe be used to drop occasional mortal wound grenades. Buffs are good but rather unnecessary (buffing Aspects which already have decent leadership)

Fuegan: This guy is okay, and probably one of my favourites. He has a 5+ FNP which gives him just enough survivability for his cost. he has an amazing melta weapon and a good axe...and when wounded he becomes a monster. He's one of the few I field and generally feel is worth its points.

Jain Zar: She is...one of the worst. Unless used solely to deny a big unit overwatch she's just a really fast close combat fighter...who's not very good at close combat. Four attacks with a decent blade is just "okay" and only if you're managing to charge minor characters or monsters. She can't clean large units, and will die instantly to even chaff who have 2-3 attacks a piece. A couple of Orks or Genestealers would shred her. In "modern" 8th edition she should have some bizarre number of attacks. She should, lore-wise be arguably one of the very best close combat heroes in the entire 40K game. I mean, crazy levels of good...anddd she's not. You're better off taking a squad of Banshees considering her cost. The few times I've managed to use her effectively were saddening - she stuck in cover and only came out to finish off Carnifexes which had 1-2 wounds left, etc. It was the least Phoenix Lord feeling thing ever....Jain Zar the garbage disposal. Phoenix Lords are generally not very tough --- the ones which need to get into close combat suffer because they become targeted rather quickly.

Karandras: The guy you want to love...but again a guy which isn't better than simply taking another squad of 8-9 actual Striking Scorpions. Karandras has a good buff for Scorpions and can deal out more damage vs. Infantry than Jain Zar (better weapon, and a decent mandiblaster). He's confusingly/frustratingly armed with a completely point Scorpion Chainsword. A weapon which is categorically worse than the claw and does not add attacks....so...why does it even exist? Again suffers from not being resilient - although he is the only Phoenix Lord with a decent Strength 8 power fist. You're still better off with a normal squad most likely, but again the close combat Phoenix Lords just die too fast.

Maugan Ra: Now this guy is a solid winner. Why? Because he doesn't need to close with the enemy - something almost every other Phoenix Lord needs to do. Solid buffs, particularly to Dark Reapers. Plop him in cover and get a 1+ armour. His gun isn't amazing but he can put down some decent anti-chaff firepower. He can defend himself fine with the Maugetar's blade if needed. I'd imagine he's actually the most accurate model in 40K right now - since his 2+ to hit is never modified and he re-rolls 1's. That's a supremely reliable 8 shots per turn. Again, not killing anything big or powerful, but can do some work. He has a weird weapon. Because of his accuracy the shrieker round is almost worse than just shooting more guaranteed shurikens? Anyway, he's a solid 8/10 character.

In short I'd rate most of these guys 6/10 as far as "OMG so strong!". Toughness 4, with 5 wounds and a 2+ armour save is just..."okay" in this edition. The need to get close often is awful for most of them, and none of them can slice through hordes of baddies like you'd expect. The ever increasing character targeting (missiles, veteran stalkers, non-line-of-sight marine snipers, etc.) mean these guys are only going to get worse.

Shut up you idiot...what do they need?

I think they need a few things. A) fix some of the weird issues above. Give Asurmen...literally the founding of the Aspect Shrines, etc...something better than a fething shuriken catapult. Give Jain Zar something in the area of six attacks since Eldar don't have any crazy stratagems or "fight twice" kind of things. Replace Karandras' pointless chainsword. Give them 5+ FNP. Oh, and please make some damn stratagems which increase the use/fun/cool factor of Aspects (since those stratagems could then likewise be used on Phoenix Lords). Also, give me a cool Stratagem where an Exarch from the correct Aspect could sacrifice itself into the Phoenix Lord suit to revive it or something. That'd be fluffy and cool as hell.

Some of them are fun, some are even cool...but some are really disappointing. Few can even hold a candle to characters from other armies - and none give amazing buffs. I actually like how limited their buffs are, but overall they're underwhelming.

   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

Lol, I'd rate Zar as one of the best ones. Not only she is cheapest after useless Hawk - a hero for more than 100 pts who doesn't shoot, can't fight and doesn't buff (and is beaten by Autarch with Wings everywhere), but she combines all banshee rules under Character rule + Disarm and -1 to Hit in CC. She is a disruptor unit best used against shooters and to do T1 charges and can tarpit some characters as well. Hell, even fight first is not a terrible buff and is at least more unique than re-rolling 1's.

Asurmen and Maugan are somewhat there, although could use a good chunk of points taken off them.

My opinion on the rules: you can't make cool rules out of re-roll 1's. Take it on a higher level. Make it so if Phoenix Lord is in a detachment or is a Warlord, every unit of their aspect in that detachment get a unique rule.

Toughness 4, with 5 wounds

6 wounds. And yeah I think T4 is ok for them except maybe Asurmen. If brutes like Kharn have T4, no reason to give more to Eldar infantry character.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/31 22:08:10


 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






For starters they all should get at least a 4++. Asurmen is too expensive for what he delivers(unless hes aura would be increased to 12") then we talking. With a protect you could get some 4++ scorpions or fire dragons which would be cool but not quite worth 175 pts. All of the PLs are currently overcosted and need more attacks/better relic weapons.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

White it's p cool to roll 4++ on Avengers when IK charges them or something, my Aspects usually just die to simple volume of fire from other basic infantry - autogun level and similar stuff. Lighter Aspects die to everything up to bunch of scarab bases or infantry twice cheaper than them including melee. It's somewhat useful for melee aspects, but I don't think you need it on most other ones.

Aspects are more fragile MEQs. I think the only way of survival for them is survival through damage output. Units like FD prove it well - they do their job and nobody think they're broken. And GSC proves glasscannons work, even if they're hard to pilot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/01 00:38:55


 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 Shadenuat wrote:
Aspects are more fragile MEQs. I think the only way of survival for them is survival through damage output.


Or just never get out of your transports until you are ready to die.

I primarily play mechanized lists, so my Dire Avenger squad frequently acts like a chaff launcher. Enemy getting close? Deploy troops to hold them off for a round!
Fire Dragons are like heat-seeking missiles. Hop out of the Falcon, run a few feet, shoot, and then explode.
Hawks live by not being on the board, or flitting around to keep out of LoS of everything but the thing they want to shoot.
Spiders live by stacking shenanigans.

But generally once exposed to air, Eldar tend to evaporate. It’s part of the army. Kill the other guy first and/or dirty tricks. They shouldn’t be tough. They should be fast, tricky, lethal, or dead.

If I wanted a tough stand up and fight army, I’d play my Ultras. And even they have trouble with that these days...

(Or invest in more wraiths)

   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

Yeah, it's pretty close how you describe it. DE have a luxury of not even getting out of their transports, eh.

I'm just for increasing the lethal part on units which are far from being so.

Also, when you talk about stacking shenanigans, I think it's a topic in itself: if they nerf Alaitoc, what would happen to units which are already very fragile?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/01 00:58:19


 
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Personally, I feel the Phoenix Lords should be on rules par with the various Chapter Masters of the Marines. The Phoenix Lords are, essentially, the Masters of their aspect.

It never ends well 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Shadenuat wrote:
In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.

Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.

Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.


This is why i would rather see them tone down a lot of the stats, Make them more mythic and less stupid i am just powerful and can tank a cannonshot. Smart and cool is not getting shot at in the first place.
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






 Shadenuat wrote:


Also, when you talk about stacking shenanigans, I think it's a topic in itself: if they nerf Alaitoc, what would happen to units which are already very fragile?


This is my argument when people talk about getting rid of Alitoic all together or bring down the nerf hammer of doom...

It just does not need to stack with CHE/hemlock but otherwise the rest of the army needs that -1 because its way too fragile otherwise..

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




In one Night Lords novel, Jain Zar demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way. That ability was a nice addition in the same way that the WD article on Maugan Ra showed he had the mystic ability to root himself immovably to the ground at will. Similarly, the Apocalypse formation Shadow Sect of Karandras showed Karandras with the ability to lead squads of Scorpions from one shadowed place to another shadowed place without passing through the intervening space. Baharroth's feat was given in the original Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path. These more esoteric mystic abilities help the image of the Phoenix Lords as supernatural immortal martial artists.

Now implementing such abilities in game in a useful fashion without overcosting is the issue.
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






Karol wrote:
Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.


No. Our t3 infantry costs double what other t3 infantry costs and has 12" guns.. 8ppm for a guardian which you need to take 10 of makes it an 80pt unit(without platform). So yeah we do take serpents because we have to for the most part.

Wraiths are tough and resilient but they suffer from the same problem of short range or being cc orientated and are not troops sadly.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





 Shadenuat wrote:
Lol, I'd rate Zar as one of the best ones. Not only she is cheapest after useless Hawk - a hero for more than 100 pts who doesn't shoot, can't fight and doesn't buff (and is beaten by Autarch with Wings everywhere), but she combines all banshee rules under Character rule + Disarm and -1 to Hit in CC. She is a disruptor unit best used against shooters and to do T1 charges and can tarpit some characters as well. Hell, even fight first is not a terrible buff and is at least more unique than re-rolling 1's.

Asurmen and Maugan are somewhat there, although could use a good chunk of points taken off them.

My opinion on the rules: you can't make cool rules out of re-roll 1's. Take it on a higher level. Make it so if Phoenix Lord is in a detachment or is a Warlord, every unit of their aspect in that detachment get a unique rule.

Toughness 4, with 5 wounds

6 wounds. And yeah I think T4 is ok for them except maybe Asurmen. If brutes like Kharn have T4, no reason to give more to Eldar infantry character.


I think that's my main issue though. Jain Zar shouldn't be a disruptor unit. The same is often said about Banshees. "Oh you're using them wrong, just use them to nullify peoples overwatch". Well that's fine, but I'd like the deadly close-combat hand-to-hand Aspect Warriors to also....fight and kill things. With regards to the Toughness 4, I'm fine with the toughness, just pointing out that the whole combination is not very survivable. I'm okay with that at Baharroth's price...beyond that, it needs work. I also 100% agree that you can't make cool rules with re-roll 1's (point of fact I hate fething re-rolls and think it's one of the very worst and most lazy game mechanics you can introduce into a game...one of the main reasons I'm falling out of love with 8th at a frantic pace).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
Karol wrote:
Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.


No. Our t3 infantry costs double what other t3 infantry costs and has 12" guns.. 8ppm for a guardian which you need to take 10 of makes it an 80pt unit(without platform). So yeah we do take serpents because we have to for the most part.

Wraiths are tough and resilient but they suffer from the same problem of short range or being cc orientated and are not troops sadly.



But dude, on hit rolls of '6' our AP is -3! Totally worth it! /sarcasm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/01 07:56:36


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Apple fox wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.

Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.

Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.


This is why i would rather see them tone down a lot of the stats, Make them more mythic and less stupid i am just powerful and can tank a cannonshot. Smart and cool is not getting shot at in the first place.


except the number of ways to avoid being shot in the face in 40k is pretty minimal.


as for Pheonix Lords, I'm definatly in agreement with the idea that they should be on par with Space Marine Captains/Chapter Masters.. It seems only fair.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.

Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.

Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.


This is why i would rather see them tone down a lot of the stats, Make them more mythic and less stupid i am just powerful and can tank a cannonshot. Smart and cool is not getting shot at in the first place.


except the number of ways to avoid being shot in the face in 40k is pretty minimal.


as for Pheonix Lords, I'm definatly in agreement with the idea that they should be on par with Space Marine Captains/Chapter Masters.. It seems only fair.



They are far more like a wraithguard than they are a normal warrior.

They're an animated wraithbone suit powered by the spirits of the dead led by the original soul.

Imagine a wraithguard with all the speed of a living Eldar and 10,000 years of skill and experience. There is nothing like them amongst marines except maybe dreadnoughts.


Exarchs are also the same, just with less gestalt soul power and less experience - but still more than most marine characters.

The shrine leader exarchs are chapter masters - they lead a shrine of aspect warriors in a warrior tradition created by someone else. Phoenix lords invented the aspect. Marneus didn't invent being a space marine, didn't invent the skills and equipment. Hell he didn't get fixated on his warfare to the extent that his soul fights eternally for it regardless of death.



If I was going to make them epic, I'd basically start with a wraithlord and give them the traditional rules and equipment.



Losing initiative as a stat has really hurt Eldar melee. Phoenix lords didn't need invilns as badly when they had a good chance of killing their target before they were hit back.


In 2nd ed most of them had a spare wargear slot to take a field of some kind (displacer was good), they all had high movement and high initiative. Karandras and maugan were both toughness 6.



   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

Iracundus wrote:
In one Night Lords novel, Jain Zar demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way

Eh. In her own novel she sh- shouted thunder and frost. I think there was some anime thing going on that if eldar has so much soul-powah and training, they do anime abilities like that even if they're not psykers technically.

 Elbows wrote:
I think that's my main issue though. Jain Zar shouldn't be a disruptor unit. The same is often said about Banshees. "Oh you're using them wrong, just use them to nullify peoples overwatch". Well that's fine, but I'd like the deadly close-combat hand-to-hand Aspect Warriors to also....fight and kill things

I agree with you in principle, but for ~100 points 4 attacks is pretty standard, and with re-roll to wounds is actually better than many other meh heroes, or was, until all the damage 5 thunderhammers came in. An extra attack would be nice but Jain already has a pretty good weapon.

I agree about Banshees, yeah.

The best Banshees I played were index 16 ppm ynnari ones. Everyone was more expensive back then, but they could fight twice, and oddly it made them very good even though price was high.

I hate fething re-rolls

I also hate auras. Turns whole army into a dumb blob centered around a bunch of models.

But dude, on hit rolls of '6' our AP is -3! Totally worth it! /sarcasm.

It is. It makes Guardians extremely killy against all kinds of threats.

Karol wrote:
Can't eldar just use transports for their stuff? They have serpents and falcons. Plus their infantry units, are rather cheap, so it is not like they can't cut a flyer or two to take transports for the army.

Unit being cheap is an argument against putting one in an expensive transport. And Aspects aren't cheap.

Don't take that as if they're unplayable or anything, far from it. Just not all of them are worth their points or do their job. Many are what I would call a "support" unit which does something, but doesn't do any damage by itself. It's hard to play army of units which don't do damage. Avengers, Banshees, Scorps, Spiders and Hawks aren't easy to make army around.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/09/01 13:16:14


 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






Some interesting ideas. Different people have different perceptions of what a PL is, how they are portrayed in the fluff, and how the fluff should be represented on the table top.

I think the comparison of wraith constructs or WL to a PL is not going in the right direction. Also PL being in the same spot as as a LOW is also a bit too far IMO. (YMMV).

The reason is that yes, PLs are millenia worth of experiance in a suit of exosceletal armour but essentialy are possesing a flesh and blood solidier. And they die and are reborn so they are not some sort of indistructible super tough wraith construct.

To me, they are master of their gear and natural leaders. So as they will be directing their battle lines from the front they might do a triple backflip and chop an artilery shell randomly heading their way, but i dont think they would be charging head first into a line of entrenched gun barrels.

Also in theory is a PL in the same leage as LOW? Primarchs? Greater deamons? So what does that mean in its comparison to the avatar.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

PLs don't have flesh or blood I think. Idk, maybe it's different from PL to PL, but with Thorpe lore anyway, I think it's just souls in the darkness inside or something like that. And purty lights.

LOW? Maybe Asurmen, but come on, even Avatar is not one. Primarches? IMO elfs don't have the same size. Daemons? They probably killed a few. Avatar? Let's not make any comparisons to Avatar before whatever we compare gets shot by battle cannons or trampled by carnifexes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/01 13:57:31


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




All the Exarch and Phoenix Lord abilities are anime-like or martial art wuxia-like and basically innate psychic abilities, driven by the power of the souls within the armor. That has always been the case from powers like Battle Fortune which is literally plot armor to Crushing Blow or Mighty Strike (from 2nd ed.) that allowed for punching harder than an Ogryn. The Apocalypse Shadow Sect formation ability for Karandras was also clearly supernatural/warp based since it allowed Karandras to vanish into the shadows in one place and reappear from the shadows elsewhere, without actually moving through the space between. The Path of the Eldar novels had Karandras with also clearly unnatural shadows around him, concealing him.

Gav Thorpe showed Karandras and presumably all the other Phoenix Lords as empty suits of armor (when Karandras sustains a wound that tears open the armor), with the souls within like a galaxy of twinkling stars. He also shows how Jain Zarr regenerated from consuming the body of a Dark Eldar, even when the Phoenix Lord had been reduced to literally a few scraps of armor. The entire armor, plus weapons, were recreated. That is more like how wraith constructs can self heal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/01 14:19:01


 
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

Yeah, but since 3d where Powers were part of Wargear, Exarch Powers never were particularly explained.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Even in 3rd ed. and onwards, the abilities were associated with the Exarch entry itself, not just the wargear.

And of course we have the explicit explanation from 2nd edition:


Exarch suits are studded with the spirit stones of all the Eldar who have ever worn the suit. Their spirits continue to circulate through the psycho-supportive environment of the suit, like a miniature version of the infinity circuit of the Craftworld. It is the presence of this spirit-pool of raw psychic energy that gives the suit and warrior (for the two are indistinguishable) their special warrior powers.

p.11, 2nd edition Eldar Codex



Phoenix Lords don't need to be one person armies but their survivability (particularly of the CC Aspects) is an issue when they (excepting Asurmen) lack invulnerable saves. A Succubus has a dodge invulnerable save yet Jain Zarr doesn't for example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/01 14:13:02


 
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

Well honestly I'm surprised they're not Psykers and can't manifest some unique powers then.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Shadenuat wrote:
Well honestly I'm surprised they're not Psykers and can't manifest some unique powers then.


They already do...just that ruleswise they are a bit underwhelming in terms of that excitement factor. They aren't Psykers because that designation is more for spellcasting individuals. Exarch powers are more focused inward and center around augmenting the individual rather than flinging warp energy outwards.

Jain Zarr has War Cry, for a -1 to hit in CC, but it's a bit "meh" since we know all Banshees already scream. Blocking shots with her blade is a more exciting power by comparison for example.

Similarly Maugan-Ra has the always hit on 2+ ability which is nice, but that again lacks that excitement compared to being able to supernaturally root oneself immovably to the ground.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!

I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Spoiler:
 Crimson wrote:
The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!

I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.


Yeah I loved them in 2nd, they were pretty cooling RT when they first appeared- the Aspects, exarchs, warlocks, farseers and the Avatar were awesome. Actually the prospect fo new plastics gives me the same feeling I had about that release. I'm hoping there are a few aspect kits, a Phoenix Lord or two with epic sculpts and a upgraded avatar kit. [Could the psychic awakening thing be the fluff explanation for increasing power levels maybe?

I hope the new aspect kits will have a few options in them- I'd love the excuse to buy a couple of squads of each. Jes' initial aspect sketches had weapon variants for some of the aspects - power axes for the banshees [which ended up on the exarch], power fists on the scorpions and shuriken cannon for the Dark Reapers. I could see Fire Dragons getting flamers, maybe the Banshees getting double swords.. as long as the exarchs have the ancient weapons they could have a bit of a play. I think they only had a single set of ritual weapons due to the fact that they were in metal and would only get a single sculpt. The wraith guard kit is a good example of a classic form getting expanded with more options and I recon they only showed the classic build of the banshees - something more will be yet to be shown. Reallylooking forward to the modelling/kit bashing options with the exarch bits. I wonder if they will make the Court of the Young King a thing again? Exciting times model wise - its got me back painting eldar again. Haven't played in ages but I live in hope!
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: