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Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

I'd love it if GW just went all out and completely revitalised the Craftworld line, put all of the older kits as last chance to buy and redid almost everything, although it would require a significant amount of kits.

I'd love to see plastic kits for all 10 known Pheonix Lords and their Aspect warriors. As well as Rangers, a new dual kit guardian squad, Avatar, Warlocks and a new dual kit for jet bikes.

Although I highly doubt we will see 25 new plastic kits....(Although it does show the scale and scope just one faction offers GW in terms of what can be released going forward.

One can dream....


The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

 Crimson wrote:
Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill

Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.

Also Warlocks are 2 ed.


Or maybe we just get plastic Banshees. Prepare salt in advance.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/01 16:34:41


 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

Argive wrote:

To me, they are master of their gear and natural leaders. So as they will be directing their battle lines from the front they might do a triple backflip and chop an artilery shell randomly heading their way, but i dont think they would be charging head first into a line of entrenched gun barrels.



Am I the only one who wants to see that happen?
   
Made in gb
Enigmatic Sorcerer of Chaos





 Shadenuat wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill

Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.

Also Warlocks are 2 ed.


Or maybe we just get plastic Banshees. Prepare salt in advance.

There are Warlock sculpts still in circulation that are from RT.

Though in RT, Warlocks and Farseers were the ultimate frail sorcerers (except you could get a Farseer with W7).

Suddently, in 2nd ed though, they both became combat monsters, with the Farseer having the profile of a Space Marine Captain/Chapter Master but with -1S but +1W and +1M.

 
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

I am okay with some characters being buffers (Smite is already pretty good) but Seer Council, really, I wish to see some battle psykers in the Codex kicking ass even if it's just one dedicated expensive unit.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Racerguy180 wrote:
Argive wrote:

To me, they are master of their gear and natural leaders. So as they will be directing their battle lines from the front they might do a triple backflip and chop an artilery shell randomly heading their way, but i dont think they would be charging head first into a line of entrenched gun barrels.



Am I the only one who wants to see that happen?


don't be absurd, you ned taratoes terminator armor to do backflips in 40k

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Shadenuat wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill

Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.

Also Warlocks are 2 ed.


Or maybe we just get plastic Banshees. Prepare salt in advance.


Yeah it could well be just Banshees and maybe Jain Zar but I really hope not. I doubt we will get all the aspects but maybe a couple of kits and a couple of characters... maybe another variant Autarch, Rangers, storm guardians or warlocks?


I'm wondering if this is going to be a pre or post Christmas release? Seems pretty busy with SoB, the rest of the marines, The AoS releases...theres really only 3 months fellas they don't tend to do model releases in December.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I'd like a foot autarch. Admittedly because I literally just finished converting one and I'd like it to be safe from removal.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

Here's hope if there will be one, it will have at least some options. Male, female, helmet or no helmet, melee or ranged weapon or something. Well even picking between glaive and reaper launcher would be good.
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear






 silverstu wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill

Oh yeah. 2A Warlocks and Farseers with 0 AP weapons. And poor Conclave. Meh.

Also Warlocks are 2 ed.


Or maybe we just get plastic Banshees. Prepare salt in advance.


Yeah it could well be just Banshees and maybe Jain Zar but I really hope not. I doubt we will get all the aspects but maybe a couple of kits and a couple of characters... maybe another variant Autarch, Rangers, storm guardians or warlocks?


I'm wondering if this is going to be a pre or post Christmas release? Seems pretty busy with SoB, the rest of the marines, The AoS releases...theres really only 3 months fellas they don't tend to do model releases in December.


I think its unlikely to see anything on the shelves before the end of the year, as you say; there is plenty to release (SM stuff, SOB range, AOS stuff plus some more side show stuff like warcry etc)

I think we will see the banshees hit the shelves in February. Why February you ask ? I have no idea. For some reason February makes sense.
My logic seems to lean towards that if they manage to release all the Marine stuff (1 supplement a month plus the rest of the vanguard and big SOb release) they should be done by january and reap the unwashed hordes of clueless young children for that sweet sweet christams money mommy, daddy and grandparents are sending their way

I'm gunna be be honest, I live in the lala land right now and am holding onto hope that 2020 will be the year Eldar get to bask in the lime light and have the entire fine cast range re-worked and a SM style codex. I'm very excited for the future and am finding more time and willingness to hobby thanks to this.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Shadenuat wrote:
PLs don't have flesh or blood I think. Idk, maybe it's different from PL to PL, but with Thorpe lore anyway, I think it's just souls in the darkness inside or something like that. And purty lights.

LOW? Maybe Asurmen, but come on, even Avatar is not one. Primarches? IMO elfs don't have the same size. Daemons? They probably killed a few. Avatar? Let's not make any comparisons to Avatar before whatever we compare gets shot by battle cannons or trampled by carnifexes.


The mind of a PL is entirely the gestalt in the armor, but that armor still needs an eldar to put it on. The wearer however, is immediately subsumed into the gestalt that makes the PL. If that wearer dies, the suit doesn't move or fight.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






 Crimson wrote:
The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!

I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.


This is, in a nutshell, why I love Eldar...but have never recovered from the massive changes they underwent post-2nd edition. Even now. Every single game of 8th I find myself miffed that so much has changed. I generally try to put up with it, but I simply hate all the changes people have mentioned. Particularly when we got lazily-written replacements. Autarchs never appealed to me (I use a Dire Avenger has one in my army but I don't even care for using him normally). I don't like a lot of the strong units that are popular now for Eldar.

The biggest issue is still just the general malaise of Aspect Warriors. While Marines originally sucked in 8th, Eldar Aspects followed them, but were occasionally even more expensive while Toughness 3 and often slightly worse armour. Two of, arguably (lore-wise) the most specialized fighting forces in the universe of 40K...and they just get trumped by average Ork boys and chaff, etc..

I started in 2nd edition, and that beautiful, wonderful codex and the wonderful fluff/lore/etc. behind it...is where I remained in my head. Everything since has been a kind of pale shadow of the army that made me start collecting 40K. However, because a handful of Eldar units are useful in a competitive army, Eldar players are generally frowned upon when lamenting their current status.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/02 02:15:20


 
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

And thus the Eldar Xenomancers was born.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




 Shadenuat wrote:
In 40k everyone is a mythic hero and kills everyone if you read their Codex. But Succubus waves -1 to hit halberd around with 1 damage and such.

Also, PL act independently all the time, see their books.

Sure, lore should have some consistent representation in the game, but not if it hurts the game - and six 300 pts characters are not needed in any way in Craftworlds codex.


Well but currently they are to expensive for the buffs and fighting power they posses. The problem is with the release of GSC and SM 02, every other army HQs look overpriced.
There is reason noone is playing with the PL after the Ynnari nerfs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadenuat wrote:
White it's p cool to roll 4++ on Avengers when IK charges them or something, my Aspects usually just die to simple volume of fire from other basic infantry - autogun level and similar stuff. Lighter Aspects die to everything up to bunch of scarab bases or infantry twice cheaper than them including melee. It's somewhat useful for melee aspects, but I don't think you need it on most other ones.

Aspects are more fragile MEQs. I think the only way of survival for them is survival through damage output. Units like FD prove it well - they do their job and nobody think they're broken. And GSC proves glasscannons work, even if they're hard to pilot.


GSC are cheap, can deepstrike and make the charge more reliable and buff their damage output easier, aspect now are more expensive then meg with less toughness and save.
T4 for aspect is ok, T5 or T6 for PL is also ok, after all that is eldar technology armor so it can be much better than some random SM power armor. Ofcourse the brute can ignore the wounds more easily.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 07:05:02


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Argive wrote:

I'm gunna be be honest, I live in the lala land right now and am holding onto hope that 2020 will be the year Eldar get to bask in the lime light and have the entire fine cast range re-worked and a SM style codex. I'm very excited for the future and am finding more time and willingness to hobby thanks to this.


You and me both! There was rumours around Eldar getting a big rework.. not pinning anything on it but hoping for it and painting up what I have on the off chance this takes off.


Elbows wrote:This is, in a nutshell, why I love Eldar...but have never recovered from the massive changes they underwent post-2nd edition. Even now. Every single game of 8th I find myself miffed that so much has changed. I generally try to put up with it, but I simply hate all the changes people have mentioned. Particularly when we got lazily-written replacements. Autarchs never appealed to me (I use a Dire Avenger has one in my army but I don't even care for using him normally). I don't like a lot of the strong units that are popular now for Eldar.

The biggest issue is still just the general malaise of Aspect Warriors. While Marines originally sucked in 8th, Eldar Aspects followed them, but were occasionally even more expensive while Toughness 3 and often slightly worse armour. Two of, arguably (lore-wise) the most specialized fighting forces in the universe of 40K...and they just get trumped by average Ork boys and chaff, etc..

I started in 2nd edition, and that beautiful, wonderful codex and the wonderful fluff/lore/etc. behind it...is where I remained in my head. Everything since has been a kind of pale shadow of the army that made me start collecting 40K. However, because a handful of Eldar units are useful in a competitive army, Eldar players are generally frowned upon when lamenting their current status.


I loved that 2ndEd codex -the change to 3rd was horrible and I was playing against the 3.5 Chaos codex which had all the tricks and we seemed to have none bar star cannons.

I do wonder wether Aspects bing a poor choice currently is a deliberate design - not encouraging players to buy up the current finest models because they planned to replace them with plastic kits?[in a way doing players a favour in the long term]. Hopefully they get a boost again if these new kits come [I say if -all we know is banshees are coming].

The lack of good aspect kits has really lead me to be disinterested in eldar until now- I always felt Aspects should be the heart of the army and the eldar range really lacks good plastic infantry kits. the wraith kits, flyers, bikes and tanks are all good but without that core its just a bit empty. At the same time though I think its great they are only being done now as the recent plastic tech means they can do them justice- and maybe with great kits they will get them back into the core of the army .

The Aspects/exarchs/phoenix lords add a lot of the mysticism of the eldar and I really hope we get that back, the exotic and esoteric feel - pure high tech is more Tau, Eldar are more like witchcraft.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 09:39:19


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





not sure I've heard any rumors but a big eldar rework makes sense. with chaos now updated eldar are really the line most in need of attention

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

For 40K armies Eldar are indeed about in the worst condition with a lot of old plastics and finecast models. They've some great newer stuff, but the old still forms a very strong core to the army. Most other races tend to have finecast left in heroes and such - where its harder to justify a big investment in new plastics to replace the finecast quickly.

Here is to hoping for Eldar getting a full rework even if its teased out in bits.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

Reading some of these comments, I wonder how many old grognards dropped Eldar in 3rd? Of course when 3rd released I saw a drop in old blood across the table overall, but also an influx of new.

I was spinning up an Eldar force as a second army at the end of 2nd. Like most of you, that codex full of awesome, and the units that played like they were the last remnants of an advanced culture. Holding off the madness of the galaxy with superior technology and stubborn arrogance.

Then we take our poets and shopkeepers, give them a SMG, and send them into the meatgrinder. Ablative wounds for the heavy platform.

I understand the changes to 3rd. 2nd still had its roots as an RPG playing at being a wargame. It was a bloated, complecated, (lovable) mess. 3rd was much cleaner, could be played with less negotiation and set up, and not take all weeekend for anything over a squad level. But of all the sins that it comited to become a more modern wargame, I will never forgive what it did to the shuricain catapult.

--

A full rework would do bad things to my wallet. I’m not sure how much of my army I’d replace. I think my basic guardians, dated though they are, I’d keep. I’m mostly OK on tanks these days. 2 flacons, 2 WS, and a FP/Spinner. I’d be on the hook for a box of each aspect, rangers, maybe a HQ or two if the looked cool. Plus anything new they invent that doesn’t rub my lore the wrong way. Vypers. That’s a unit I already have two of where I’d get more. Tight fit to the theme of my list, dated kit, would let me have two sides of my bike forces, old/new.

Lots of fingers crossed for the future. I thnk this fall/winter is going to see me expand with the new vanguard marines, maybe next spring it will be time for the elves? I honestly don’t see a reboot much sooner then that. They can dribble squads out to us piecemeal, but anything major is going to take some lead time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 11:26:11


Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 12.5K+ Slowly growing 2Kish
Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities
 
   
Made in pl
Screaming Shining Spear





 Elbows wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
The Eldar were my first 40K army when I started to play this game in the second edition. I adored them. I had plenty of small Aspect Warrior squads (they were minimum size three then) and as many characters than the rules allowed. I think my only vehicles were one Falcon and one War Walker. There were some Guardians too, whilst in those days their stats were not so great befitting their militia status, it felt like they were equipped with superior Eldar technology. The shuriken catapults were formidable weapons, better than imperial storm bolters. And the the Aspect Warriors were fierce. The Howling Banshees certainly taught to the marines the meaning of fear, the Fire Dragons could deal with any vehicle. And the Characters! Farseers and other Eldar psykers were warrior mystics. They were not mere feeble sorcerers in robes, they were like the Jedi, wielding the psychic powers and the witch blades with equally impressive skill. And the Exarchs were like the heroes of Greek myths, they were mighty characters and could be armed with all sorts of powerful weapons. And even greater were the Phoenix Lords and the mighty Avatar! It was glorious!

I gave up the Eldar in the 3rd edition, the playstyle I loved was gone. Exarchs were now mere sergeants, the Seers were timid wizard with no melee ability and even the iconic shuriken catapult had become laughable shotgun. This is of course not to complain that the Eldar were weak army; as a faction they have been extremely powerful during most editions. But their focus had changed to something quite different.


This is, in a nutshell, why I love Eldar...but have never recovered from the massive changes they underwent post-2nd edition. Even now. Every single game of 8th I find myself miffed that so much has changed. I generally try to put up with it, but I simply hate all the changes people have mentioned. Particularly when we got lazily-written replacements. Autarchs never appealed to me (I use a Dire Avenger has one in my army but I don't even care for using him normally). I don't like a lot of the strong units that are popular now for Eldar.

The biggest issue is still just the general malaise of Aspect Warriors. While Marines originally sucked in 8th, Eldar Aspects followed them, but were occasionally even more expensive while Toughness 3 and often slightly worse armour. Two of, arguably (lore-wise) the most specialized fighting forces in the universe of 40K...and they just get trumped by average Ork boys and chaff, etc..

I started in 2nd edition, and that beautiful, wonderful codex and the wonderful fluff/lore/etc. behind it...is where I remained in my head. Everything since has been a kind of pale shadow of the army that made me start collecting 40K. However, because a handful of Eldar units are useful in a competitive army, Eldar players are generally frowned upon when lamenting their current status.


The gutting of Eldar feel and the removal of Harlequins from the game in 3rd were huge factors in my rage quitting 40k back then. I had some hopes during the index era, but when codex came out there was nothing left to wait for.

As to debate about how powefull Phienix Lords should be, I would like to remind, that according to lore, Maugan Ra single handedly dragged Altansar out of the Eye of Terror. That is easily a primarch level feat...

What I would like the most to see rules wise is the actual phoenix aspect - durability by resurrection. It is already existing ability within 40k and it seems most fitting for PLs to have it. It would be most thematic if it required another eldar model sacrifice, but any reasonable implementation would do.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Nevelon wrote:
Reading some of these comments, I wonder how many old grognards dropped Eldar in 3rd? Of course when 3rd released I saw a drop in old blood across the table overall, but also an influx of new.

I was spinning up an Eldar force as a second army at the end of 2nd. Like most of you, that codex full of awesome, and the units that played like they were the last remnants of an advanced culture. Holding off the madness of the galaxy with superior technology and stubborn arrogance.

Then we take our poets and shopkeepers, give them a SMG, and send them into the meatgrinder. Ablative wounds for the heavy platform.

I understand the changes to 3rd. 2nd still had its roots as an RPG playing at being a wargame. It was a bloated, complecated, (lovable) mess. 3rd was much cleaner, could be played with less negotiation and set up, and not take all weeekend for anything over a squad level. But of all the sins that it comited to become a more modern wargame, I will never forgive what it did to the shuricain catapult.

--

A full rework would do bad things to my wallet. I’m not sure how much of my army I’d replace. I think my basic guardians, dated though they are, I’d keep. I’m mostly OK on tanks these days. 2 flacons, 2 WS, and a FP/Spinner. I’d be on the hook for a box of each aspect, rangers, maybe a HQ or two if the looked cool. Plus anything new they invent that doesn’t rub my lore the wrong way. Vypers. That’s a unit I already have two of where I’d get more. Tight fit to the theme of my list, dated kit, would let me have two sides of my bike forces, old/new.

Lots of fingers crossed for the future. I thnk this fall/winter is going to see me expand with the new vanguard marines, maybe next spring it will be time for the elves? I honestly don’t see a reboot much sooner then that. They can dribble squads out to us piecemeal, but anything major is going to take some lead time.

For those of us not around then, what did happen to the shuriken catapult?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

pm713 wrote:
For those of us not around then, what did happen to the shuriken catapult?


2nd ed:
24” range, with +1 to hit at short (12”) S4, D1, -2 save mode, armor pen of d6+4. Sustained fire 1dice. (so it got 1,1,2,2,3,jam number of shots)

3rd ed:
12” range, S4, AP5, Assault 2

By way of comparison, a storm bolter had the same stats, but only a -1 save mod. It translated at 24” range, S4 AP5 Assault 2

Halving the range changed the army completely. Especially for such a fragile army.

Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 12.5K+ Slowly growing 2Kish
Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Reading some of these comments, I wonder how many old grognards dropped Eldar in 3rd? Of course when 3rd released I saw a drop in old blood across the table overall, but also an influx of new.

I was spinning up an Eldar force as a second army at the end of 2nd. Like most of you, that codex full of awesome, and the units that played like they were the last remnants of an advanced culture. Holding off the madness of the galaxy with superior technology and stubborn arrogance.

Then we take our poets and shopkeepers, give them a SMG, and send them into the meatgrinder. Ablative wounds for the heavy platform.

I understand the changes to 3rd. 2nd still had its roots as an RPG playing at being a wargame. It was a bloated, complecated, (lovable) mess. 3rd was much cleaner, could be played with less negotiation and set up, and not take all weeekend for anything over a squad level. But of all the sins that it comited to become a more modern wargame, I will never forgive what it did to the shuricain catapult.

--

A full rework would do bad things to my wallet. I’m not sure how much of my army I’d replace. I think my basic guardians, dated though they are, I’d keep. I’m mostly OK on tanks these days. 2 flacons, 2 WS, and a FP/Spinner. I’d be on the hook for a box of each aspect, rangers, maybe a HQ or two if the looked cool. Plus anything new they invent that doesn’t rub my lore the wrong way. Vypers. That’s a unit I already have two of where I’d get more. Tight fit to the theme of my list, dated kit, would let me have two sides of my bike forces, old/new.

Lots of fingers crossed for the future. I thnk this fall/winter is going to see me expand with the new vanguard marines, maybe next spring it will be time for the elves? I honestly don’t see a reboot much sooner then that. They can dribble squads out to us piecemeal, but anything major is going to take some lead time.

For those of us not around then, what did happen to the shuriken catapult?


In 2nd edition it was the best basic firearm:
Range 24"
Strength 4
Armor save mod -2
Sustained fire dice x 1 (so 1-3 shots, with possibility of jam)

By comparison the bolter only had armor save mod -1.

Now admittedly the shuriken catapult was arguably far too powerful, outperforming the bolter in both armor save modifier and fire rate. However the rules changes in 3rd edition nerfed it too hard the other way:
Range dropped to 12"
Save modifier turned to AP 5
Assault 2

With the AP system in 3rd edition, the catapult became basically worthless against 3+ saves so that's why everyone gravitated towards any weapon with AP3 or better, such as the Star Cannon.

GW's flawed rationale was that the extra shot and the Assault ability to fire 2 shots when moving would compensate for the shortened range. Problem is when you give it to paper thin (5+ save) Guardians with WS and BS 3, in an edition when some units could charge more than 12" and where basic bolter equivalent shots were next to worthless.

Since then GW have flatly refused to admit their error even though their other actions amount to tacit admission, such as the extended range on Dire Avenger catapults.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 12:10:11


 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






And having these shotgun guardian to go with a heavy weapon platform with a long ranged weapon makes it even more idiotic.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
And having these shotgun guardian to go with a heavy weapon platform with a long ranged weapon makes it even more idiotic.


Yes, and that heavy weapon platform is a relic of the 2nd edition when Guardians could hang in the back and shoot at the enemy with 24" catapults or 24" lasguns (which I never ever saw anyone take, not when the 2nd edition catapult was that good).

In 3rd edition, GW wanted to differentiate all factions from each other so removed the lasgun option from Guardians but without any similarly ranged replacement. Guardians shooting at reasonable range at the enemy, and keeping their distance in order to preserve Eldar life, would make sense.

Having a long ranged weapon in a squad of short ranged SMG equivalents made no sense. Either the platform was shooting and the Guardians were just ablative wounds that didn't shoot, or if the Guardians were close enough to shoot, they would promptly be deleted by return fire or wiped out in CC since the 3rd edition catapult was not enough additional firepower to reliably make a difference in an MEQ environment, and the Guardians' 5+ save was worthless.

The change to the catapult also rippled outwards to any Eldar vehicle that mounted catapults, promptly rendering the twin catapult mount worthless if it couldn't be upgraded to a shuriken cannon.

The pseudo-Rending rule to shuriken weapons now makes catapult firepower better, but it still basically dances around the main issue of the catapult's cripplingly short range and the Craftworld Eldar being a faction that is supposed to value Eldar life, not throwing cannon fodder at the enemy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/02 12:40:08


 
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

I think Kelly himself stated that 12" Catapults are dumb.

I think Catapults should be Storm Guardian weapons (so either a Catapult or Sword + Pistol), while something like Rapid Fire 2 Lasgun from Index Swooping Hawks should be Defender weapon. They should operate HWP and that's should be their whole job.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/02 15:57:31


 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Shadenuat wrote:
I hink Kelly himself stated that "12 Catapults are dumb.

Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
I hink Kelly himself stated that "12 Catapults are dumb.

Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!


Because SM will cry in forums 3 years if they did that, but it`s stupid that the race that try to preserve their lives is giving their military short weapons and 0 protection.

   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I main marines, but I'd make catapults assault 2, range 24 and avenger catapults assault 3, range 24. In current system it also might be easier to just replace their current bespoke rule with a flat AP -1, though that is not such a big deal.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Marin wrote:

Because SM will cry in forums 3 years if they did that, but it`s stupid that the race that try to preserve their lives is giving their military short weapons and 0 protection.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, because that's why. They factor in everyone's complaining on forums that they have no vested stake in.


It surely has nothing to do with a few stodgy grognards in the rules team having more say than they should and a measure of "keep things as is" for the most part, right?
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

I also started in 2nd edition with Eldar. I bought a war walker at a sale (Yes GW used to have sales!) and that glorious 2nd edition codex was read front to back, back to front and every which way.

Having said that, I'm also aware that was 20+ years ago, and continually lamenting the past and not embracing the future, is not only futile... it's kinda sad.


The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
 
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