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Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Even if we would ignore the history the current armament of the Guardian squads is bloody idiotic.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Crimson wrote:
Even if we would ignore the history the current armament of the Guardian squads is bloody idiotic.

They're a unit/weapon which very much would benefit from some interesting and unique stratagems/abilities.
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

 Crimson wrote:
Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!

Shorter ranges reward mobility and moving around taking the benefit of Battle Focus, and give Eldar the feel that they're an army about precision strike, not stand and shoot army. Yeah, 12" probably is too short, but I don't think it would be good for the game to have hundreds of Shuriken fly from high range from cover/penalties to hit. Then Guardians would just turn into fw/skitarii/marines. And then Dire Avengers need something to make them unique. I think when you play Eldar, there should always be a feeling that you're dancing just outside of enemy charge and need to position your units carefully.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/02 16:04:53


 
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Marin wrote:

Because SM will cry in forums 3 years if they did that, but it`s stupid that the race that try to preserve their lives is giving their military short weapons and 0 protection.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, because that's why. They factor in everyone's complaining on forums that they have no vested stake in.


It surely has nothing to do with a few stodgy grognards in the rules team having more say than they should and a measure of "keep things as is" for the most part, right?


I said it mostly like a joke, but it`s fact that there were many old marine players ragging on GW facebook page, because they did not get all the new SM stuff.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Marin wrote:

I said it mostly like a joke, but it`s fact that there were many old marine players ragging on GW facebook page, because they did not get all the new SM stuff.

Yes, because we're now almost a month past the start of preorders for the Marine stuff(started on August 10th--released on the 17th) with a large chunk of the missing items(Eliminators box, Infiltrators/Incursors box, the Impulsor, and the Reiver Lieutenant that they plastered into every photo showcasing the new stuff) still nowhere in sight.

That's not even factoring in the remaining four supplements. And for whatever reason, the two Marine releases we actually saw in August?

They had six models across them. Only three(Tigurius, Khan, Invictor) were actually new, and two of those three were Chapter specific(Khan and Tigurius).
It's not like they were packed to the brim with stuff on the one non-Codex release they did(Invictor, Phobos Librarian, Phobos Captain, and the "Wake the Dead" Lieutenant) either. Or that they couldn't have managed to give some kind of idea when to expect stuff or added some of it in during the Made to Order LOTR wave(which wasn't really that big anyways, being something like 6 items).

So yeah, you might think people are being impatient or whiny or whatever...but some of us(myself included) would like to be able to finish out our all Phobos forces.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Shadenuat wrote:
I think Kelly himself stated that 12" Catapults are dumb.

Phil Kelly is literally one of the last people that should be talking about balance.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Shuriken Catapults were very good in 2nd edition, but keep in mind they were an option, and somewhat expensive (considering a Guardian was still a 'militia' unit stat-wise). Guardians died very quickly in 2nd ed., so it was a balancing act, but yes the Shuriken Catapult was superior to even a common Stormbolter. This was fine, because you still had cheap and numerous lasguns as an option for the squad.

Caution: Contentious Statement: While the Eldar were gutted, I also dislike the recent change to make Guardians BS/WS 3+. This was an utterly pointless and stupid change which made Guardians too good, and made Aspect Warriors seem even less purposeful. (the same goes for Space Marine Scouts just being shoe-horned into BS/WS 3+ as well). What the feth is the problem having units that better/worse than other units? That's the whole point. Give me BS/WS 4+ Guardians with cheap lasguns, and make them cheaper/worse than Aspect Warriors. This dumbing down of the variance in stat-lines is a terrible direction. And yes, I'm arguing that one of our units should be made worse...I understand that.

Lore-wise, an Aspect Warrior is a dedicated warrior, having risked donning the war mask and training endlessly day after day, sometimes for years. Mastering a single martial discipline. Etc. etc. etc. This is why, lore-wise a fight between say, a Striking Scorpion and an Assault Marine should be amazing, legendary even. Each of them hundreds of years old, dedicated to a life of martial prowess - a master of their chosen form of combat, armed with the finest weapons and gear in the universe, bla bla bla. But suddenly some militia and some newly recruited scouts are more or less on par, and just have slightly worse armour? What the feth?

I think GW fethed up big time when they launched 8th. They didn't take into account the impact modifiers would have on the dumbed down stat-lines which are still more or less a hold-over from 3rd editions "blandening". This would have been the time to re-write the basic Marine statline (other than dropping the leadership value by one...). We need more diverse/expansive gaps/differences in traits and statlines.

Caution: Rules Rant ahead...so I'm spoilering it.
Spoiler:

This also heavily highlights a massive issue with the fixed to-hit numbers instead of the older BS/WS formula. Something I've mentioned dozens of times in other threads. GW stuck themselves in a corner with the "X+" method of stats. They simply don't work well enough given the rest of the 8th edition design. I hate to say it but they should have kept the old stat options.

2nd Edition:

Space Marine: BS 4 (3+ to hit before modifiers)
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: BS 5 (2+ to hit before modifiers)
Space Marine Captain: BS 7 (2+ to hit before modifiers)

8th Edition:
Space Marine: 3+
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: 3+
Space Marine Captain: 2+

So we can see the slight disparity before we start. Now let's say in either game you're shooting at something with a -2 to hit penalty (for whatever reason)

2nd Edition:
Space Marine: 5+ to hit.
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: 4+ to hit.
Space Marine Captain: 2+ to hit.

8th Edition:
Space Marine: 5+ to hit.
Space Marine Veteran/Terminator: 5+ to hit.
Space Marine Captain: 4+ to hit.

The 8th edition system is extremely limited. It also fails to represent accurately the ability of legendary fighters such as Space Marine Captains, Primarchs, etc. GW has to hamfist rules to make them somehow better than other units. With the old BS system, you could have a BS of 10...and you'd essentially ignore up to -5 penalties. This gives you a much larger variance in skill and ability. Maybe a Primarch is BS10, so he doesn't drop to 3+ just because there's a negative. They've tried to fix this kind of nonsense with the wave of re-roll auras/buffs/stratagems, but they really should have not bothered changing the system.

WS could have likewise been kept and been super easy, swap it over to the current to-wound system. Gives you super easy math and if you're a close combat monster you'll wreck face. If you're a hapless chaff unit you'll struggle mightily to harm a Primarch or Hive Tyrant...as you 100% should.

This simple change which was supposed to streamline things really made the game far worse and put GW in an awkward spot where new rules going forward are becoming nearly impossible to invent because there's no room in a 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ design that spans from Primarchs to gretchin...



 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

I've been specifically avoiding aspects for my Ynarri due to them being in finecast, now I forsee a couple of squads of each(or whatever comes out).
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Shadenuat wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Then why not change it? Write down 24 or at least 18 instead of 12. It's not that difficult. 24. 24.24. See, I did it three times in a row, not once did I type 12 by accident!

Shorter ranges reward mobility and moving around taking the benefit of Battle Focus, and give Eldar the feel that they're an army about precision strike, not stand and shoot army. Yeah, 12" probably is too short, but I don't think it would be good for the game to have hundreds of Shuriken fly from high range from cover/penalties to hit. Then Guardians would just turn into fw/skitarii/marines. And then Dire Avengers need something to make them unique. I think when you play Eldar, there should always be a feeling that you're dancing just outside of enemy charge and need to position your units carefully.


I get what you're saying, but 24 is not a particularly long range these days though. 18 was my another suggestion, but that honestly still doesn't make sense with the platforms. Now my suggestion was based on the current models. If we could get a new kit, then there could be a harder hitting, range 18 catapults, and weaker, but range 24 or even 30 laser weapon. Then the latter could go with the platforms.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

24" is not long because more factions get more range and more new weapons, and also because range only really comes into play if you slam 2 tables together and play Apoc.

Anyway, until GW decides to also change Guardian kit, I think it's all pointless wishlisting. I'm more interested if they change Aspect weapons.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






12" Assault made sense when a Bolter had to stand still to fire 2 shots at 12" and one at 24", and when it moved it only got one shot at 12" AND couldn't charge. The Eldar instead could move 6", fire twice AND Charge. Huge difference. That was 3rd Ed.

Unfortunately the Shuriken Catapult didn't get upgraded while the Rapid Fire rules evolved over subsequent editions.

----

The Storm Bolter at that time turned into Assault 2 24", which balanced out a couple things. Terminators went down in BS and lost their Targeters, and the Assault Cannon got knocked down a huge amount from 2nd to 3rd. Since they were the only Storm Bolter carrying unit, the relative adjustments were reasonable, imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 20:57:58


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The original Guardian WS/BS of 3 was from when the average trained human WS/BS was 3, before the swamping of MEQ on the tabletop made WS/BS 4 the new average. This has its roots in the original WHFB when Elves were also basically human with +1 to WS, BS, I, LD. The idea was that a part-time militia Eldar was as good as a professional Imperial Guard soldier, and an Eldar that really focused on training as a professional soldier could achieve WS/BS 4 which was and still is meant to represent elite levels of skill. It is just that its value has been devalued by the ubiquitous MEQ statline.

The problem with the 3rd edition 12" catapult and needing to "dance" into range was the payoff didn't really justify the effort involved. An extra bolter equivalent shot was "meh" when it also meant that some of the time the catapult couldn't fire at all. When these shots also couldn't reliably destroy their target, it also just exposed the firer to a charge. That was why Guardian squads turned into ablative wounds for the heavy weapons platform. It just wasn't worth the effort and risk to do otherwise. If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant enough for the player to want to jump through those hoops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 21:08:15


 
   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

Iracundus wrote:
If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant

True. But Guardian blobs do reward you with good firepower now. It's units like Avengers and Warp Spiders who feel meh for their price for just 2 shots.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Iracundus wrote:
The problem with the 3rd edition 12" catapult and needing to "dance" into range was the payoff didn't really justify the effort involved. An extra bolter equivalent shot was "meh" when it also meant that some of the time the catapult couldn't fire at all. When these shots also couldn't reliably destroy their target, it also just exposed the firer to a charge. That was why Guardian squads turned into ablative wounds for the heavy weapons platform. It just wasn't worth the effort and risk to do otherwise. If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant enough for the player to want to jump through those hoops.


I think that depends tremendously on your frame of reference. Guardians could slaughter Guardsmen with Catapults, and Guardians could also charge after firing their guns, unlike Guardsmen and Space Marines. That meant they didn't have to be waiting around for a counter charge. Imo they worked pretty well in close support of Aspects against other infantry in 3rd. Otherwise, it put Guardians in control of a Heavy Weapons platform where they could support the rest of the army, which works pretty well from a home-grown militia standpoint.

There are aspects of 3rd that broke down really fast, like the speed of assaults as highlighted by the Blood Angels codex at the time. But when pushing things around using the basic infantry, Guardians worked out alright, imo. Despite all the Infantry moving 6", the Assault designation of the Catapult made Eldar way more capable on the move. Remember, Space Marine moves, shoots once, can't charge. Very limited.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Marin wrote:

I said it mostly like a joke, but it`s fact that there were many old marine players ragging on GW facebook page, because they did not get all the new SM stuff.

Yes, because we're now almost a month past the start of preorders for the Marine stuff(started on August 10th--released on the 17th) with a large chunk of the missing items(Eliminators box, Infiltrators/Incursors box, the Impulsor, and the Reiver Lieutenant that they plastered into every photo showcasing the new stuff) still nowhere in sight.

That's not even factoring in the remaining four supplements. And for whatever reason, the two Marine releases we actually saw in August?

They had six models across them. Only three(Tigurius, Khan, Invictor) were actually new, and two of those three were Chapter specific(Khan and Tigurius).
It's not like they were packed to the brim with stuff on the one non-Codex release they did(Invictor, Phobos Librarian, Phobos Captain, and the "Wake the Dead" Lieutenant) either. Or that they couldn't have managed to give some kind of idea when to expect stuff or added some of it in during the Made to Order LOTR wave(which wasn't really that big anyways, being something like 6 items).

So yeah, you might think people are being impatient or whiny or whatever...but some of us(myself included) would like to be able to finish out our all Phobos forces.


Most of the rage was about the balance and how they are not getting all the new stuff like doctrines. It was not about not getting the models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
The problem with the 3rd edition 12" catapult and needing to "dance" into range was the payoff didn't really justify the effort involved. An extra bolter equivalent shot was "meh" when it also meant that some of the time the catapult couldn't fire at all. When these shots also couldn't reliably destroy their target, it also just exposed the firer to a charge. That was why Guardian squads turned into ablative wounds for the heavy weapons platform. It just wasn't worth the effort and risk to do otherwise. If a weapon forces the player to put in effort in order to get it to work, the reward has to be significant enough for the player to want to jump through those hoops.


I think that depends tremendously on your frame of reference. Guardians could slaughter Guardsmen with Catapults, and Guardians could also charge after firing their guns, unlike Guardsmen and Space Marines. That meant they didn't have to be waiting around for a counter charge. Imo they worked pretty well in close support of Aspects against other infantry in 3rd. Otherwise, it put Guardians in control of a Heavy Weapons platform where they could support the rest of the army, which works pretty well from a home-grown militia standpoint.

There are aspects of 3rd that broke down really fast, like the speed of assaults as highlighted by the Blood Angels codex at the time. But when pushing things around using the basic infantry, Guardians worked out alright, imo. Despite all the Infantry moving 6", the Assault designation of the Catapult made Eldar way more capable on the move. Remember, Space Marine moves, shoots once, can't charge. Very limited.


I heard that guardians manage to move again after they shoot, so they can get some protection, but now they are in the open and pretty vulnerable. Guardsmen are 4 pts and with catachan they can fight in melee something guardians can`t.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/03 07:07:33


 
   
Made in gb
Enigmatic Sorcerer of Chaos





Moving after shooting was a really late addition, in 6th or 7th (AKA 3.7 and 3.8 edition).

8th edition is truly actually 4th edition 40k rather than the mess that was 3rd edition amended but they really didn't scrap enough of 3rd edition like they did from 2nd -> 3rd.

 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Galef wrote:
Agreed. And assuming they aren't dual-kits and don't include any new options (requiring new rules), we are talking about spindly little Elves, not bulky Primaris. So hopefully they kits are less than $30 per 5.

Heck, if they follow the same pattern as some DE kits, we might even see 5 for $25, even for the Jump units. Hellions are 5 Elves on skyboards for $25, so Hawks and Spiders could follow suit

-


Hahahahahahaahahahahahahahh.... 30 for 5, you're a funny man. Following the pattern of an army that came out in fifth edition, a funny, funny man.

40$ per 5 is the current standard. For everything.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

the_scotsman wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Agreed. And assuming they aren't dual-kits and don't include any new options (requiring new rules), we are talking about spindly little Elves, not bulky Primaris. So hopefully they kits are less than $30 per 5.

Heck, if they follow the same pattern as some DE kits, we might even see 5 for $25, even for the Jump units. Hellions are 5 Elves on skyboards for $25, so Hawks and Spiders could follow suit

-


Hahahahahahaahahahahahahahh.... 30 for 5, you're a funny man. Following the pattern of an army that came out in fifth edition, a funny, funny man.

40$ per 5 is the current standard. For everything.
Or $60 for 10. But either way too darn expensive for thin spindly models that aren't likely to come with alternate options aside from Exarch weapons.
I really hope they don't come in sets of 10, though. Given that most Aspects are in units of 4 + Exarch, boxes of 5 a la Dire Avengers makes the most sense. And that box is $35.

-

   
Made in ru
Swift Swooping Hawk




Russia, Moscow

Scions are 35$ too.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Keep in mind this is the army which went from 10 Dire Avengers for $35....arbitrarily cut to 5 Dire Avengers for $35.

I'm excited about plastic Aspects, despite not really playing the game at the moment....but I simply won't pay $60 for 10 small plastic figures.

I think the very best we could possibly hope for is maybe $50-55 per box. My hope is that in a year or two there is a Swordwind box at Christmas which is a good deal, or a new start collecting box - or some combo/starter box to make the cost not absolutely stupid.

 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






 Argive wrote:
So my fellow dakkanauts and CWE fans around the world it appears, we have been heard.
It has been confirmed:

Along with the new psychic awakening campaign stuff CWE will be getting howling banshees in plastic!!
Yes... it really has been confirmed! Rejoice!!!!



https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/

(Yeah there will be some sort of campaign book malrkay and yaddaa yadda supplements regarding psychic awekning nobody really cares about)

So, some of our fears appear to have been alleviated, the howling banshees does not appear to have been primarised/ynarrified in any way shape or form but rather is a full on plastic revamp. I don't know about any other CWE fans but having been searching ebay for good metals for all of our aspects I can now stop looking for banshees and take my time waiting for these to be released and get on with the rest of my army. Makes me a very happy happy table topper. I know I will be picking up at least a couple boxes (lets hope they don't come in a wake the dead type box..)

So question is, do we just get the banshees? And have to make do with that for the next XX years?
Will we see some new phoenix lords??
Are there going to resculpt PLs also??
What's the next aspects after the banshees likely to be done? (My money is on scorpions as they are very iconic)


This is what is getting me interested in Eldar. If they do the AoK as well, that will seal the deal.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Swore I wouldn't buy another one, but I sure hope there is a Kill Team set for the Banshees. I'd be straight in there.

Casual gamer, casual fun! 
   
Made in us
Flower Picking Eldar Youth




I've always been an advocate of guardian defenders getting lasblasters instead of shuriken catapults. This would better match the weapons platform ranges.

Give storm guardians the shuriken catapults with special weapons make then a short range attacking unit.

You could keep the cats at current stats

Make avengers cats range 18, s4, assault 3 -1.


   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






^ Agreed, except normal cats should still be range 18. 12 is a pistol range, it is pathetic. Avengers don't need longer range than the normal ones, they can get an extra shot instead. It is silly that the citizen militia needs to get closer to the enemy than the dedicated professional warriors led by a sword-wielding Exarch.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
^ Agreed, except normal cats should still be range 18. 12 is a pistol range, it is pathetic. Avengers don't need longer range than the normal ones, they can get an extra shot instead. It is silly that the citizen militia needs to get closer to the enemy than the dedicated professional warriors led by a sword-wielding Exarch.


Isn't that like the definition of what a militia is, something that is less efficient and worse, if at all, trained? Volksturm for example used anti tank from point blank range. Why normal wehrmacht units, were trained and supplied with longer range weapons.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Karol wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
^ Agreed, except normal cats should still be range 18. 12 is a pistol range, it is pathetic. Avengers don't need longer range than the normal ones, they can get an extra shot instead. It is silly that the citizen militia needs to get closer to the enemy than the dedicated professional warriors led by a sword-wielding Exarch.


Isn't that like the definition of what a militia is, something that is less efficient and worse, if at all, trained? Volksturm for example used anti tank from point blank range. Why normal wehrmacht units, were trained and supplied with longer range weapons.


Because these are the citizens that the Eldar would prefer were not killed. Giving them shotguns and telling them to run at the enemy so that they can shoot once and die seems pretty inappropriate thematically.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Militias are only used in two situations. A threat is a minimal, so it doesn't require regular army. Or the threat is so huge, then every man, woman and child is needed to do something for the war effort.
So if eldar militia is being used, then we are either in the first situation, which means it shouldn't matter what they face, as it would be weak. Or if it is the secon situation, they would be fed to the meat grinder, because the situation is so dire, that it probably threatens the very existance of local eldar population.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






I appreciate your enthusiasm Karol, but that's not at all in line with any of the Eldar lore or fluff.

 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

 Elbows wrote:
I appreciate your enthusiasm Karol, but that's not at all in line with any of the Eldar lore or fluff.


They know not of which they speak.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





not an eldar fluff guru here but are guardians useally deployed in defence of a craftworld? if so the short range might be understandable in that they're geared to fight in close quarters etc. I mean a shot gun is a pretty good weapon for ahllway fights

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
 
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