Have you broken Imperium law? Are you up for jail time, nay, execution? Well just give Cawl a call, he's been in your position!
*ahem*
Guy Haley's In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future openly mentions that Cawl's mind is essentially composed of numerous AI copies of himself operating in tandem with his original mind, in what he compares to being a conductor of an orchestra with the AI copies as the musicians. Which in effect makes him practically immortal, since he could switch on a backup copy of himself if his original body dies.
- 1d4chan
So, has he broken Imperium law by creating various A.I. copies of himself? Does anyone know about this? Thoughts?
Psionara wrote: Have you broken Imperium law? Are you up for jail time, nay, execution? Well just give Cawl a call, he's been in your position!
*ahem*
Guy Haley's In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future openly mentions that Cawl's mind is essentially composed of numerous AI copies of himself operating in tandem with his original mind, in what he compares to being a conductor of an orchestra with the AI copies as the musicians. Which in effect makes him practically immortal, since he could switch on a backup copy of himself if his original body dies.
- 1d4chan
So, has he broken Imperium law by creating various A.I. copies of himself? Does anyone know about this? Thoughts?
those aren't AI copies of himself, those are multiple brains with his brain implant on it running in tandum. this is nothing new
He'll, hey you dont have to like me son, but i like you and forgive.
Cause hes a fantastically nice, smart guy/ machine.
Wasnt a DAOT ship destroyed for doing his bbbbrains in a jar thing.
Have you written yourself into a corner in you latest hack novel, do your need to shoehorn in massive setting destroying retcons/changes due to the marketing/legal team, have you been instructed to make whole sale changes to a faction because of over saturation and the bosses 7 yr old son has designed the “coolest” tank eva.
Then you better call Cawl.
On a serious note cawl has become the 40k equivalent of d&d’s a wizard did it which is quite funny.
Technically he would be a "Marty Stew" because, you know, man. That aside, it's notable in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work that he's not 100% on what his AI duplicates are up to, and has memory dumps every so often. Given that Cawl himself is a gestalt, thanks to xenos tech, creating AI copies of himself is probably the least radical of his heresies.
SeanDrake wrote: Have you written yourself into a corner in you latest hack novel, do your need to shoehorn in massive setting destroying retcons/changes due to the marketing/legal team, have you been instructed to make whole sale changes to a faction because of over saturation and the bosses 7 yr old son has designed the “coolest” tank eva.
Then you better call Cawl.
On a serious note cawl has become the 40k equivalent of d&d’s a wizard did it which is quite funny.
Also impressive considering he literally took that from the alpha legion.
Altough maybee cawlpharius is a legoinaire.
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Nurglitch wrote: Technically he would be a "Marty Stew" because, you know, man. That aside, it's notable in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work that he's not 100% on what his AI duplicates are up to, and has memory dumps every so often. Given that Cawl himself is a gestalt, thanks to xenos tech, creating AI copies of himself is probably the least radical of his heresies.
I doubt you could consider him man.
He is if anything and probably considers himself to be a machine sue/stew?
Nurglitch wrote: Technically he would be a "Marty Stew" because, you know, man. That aside, it's notable in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work that he's not 100% on what his AI duplicates are up to, and has memory dumps every so often. Given that Cawl himself is a gestalt, thanks to xenos tech, creating AI copies of himself is probably the least radical of his heresies.
I doubt you could consider him man.
He is if anything and probably considers himself to be a machine sue/stew?
Apparently he’s absorbed the consciousness of at least one woman. Though the original Cawl is dominant, she is in there, so I think it doesn’t matter too much. However, this does give Cawl perhaps some insight into the female psyche. Which would be the greatest grimdark of all: Men having any idea what woman are thinking—and it’s wasted on a cogboy!
the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)
Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.
BrianDavion wrote: the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)
Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.
Did not know any of this and I like it all. Thank you.
BrianDavion wrote: the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)
Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.
Did not know any of this and I like it all. Thank you.
no worries, I'm also only halfway through the book so there might be more to come, I think I might make a post info dumping whats there once it's done.
Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
Andykp wrote: Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them
Andykp wrote: Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them
Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.
BrianDavion wrote: the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)
Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.
It's a good book (well, the bits about Cawl are good...). I think Cawl would have been better received if he'd been introduced as a character before the Primaris, rather than as a Deus ex machina.
BrianDavion wrote: the novel about Cawl that just came out suggests Cawl is a gestalt of at least 3 individuals, one of whom worked on the original space Marine project (which it turns out wasn't just the emperor dicking around in a lab somewhere but was rather overseen by him but most of the work carried out by individuals, lead, intreastingly eneugh, by a woman named Astartes)
Cawl, in a very real sense actually developed the Black Carapiece. with this in mind his improving space marines is hardly a stretch. especially when you realize that Cawl attempted even more modification and the 3 new implants was all he COULD achieve.
It's a good book (well, the bits about Cawl are good...). I think Cawl would have been better received if he'd been introduced as a character before the Primaris, rather than as a Deus ex machina.
I agree. I get that was what the fall of Cadia was about- but there was too much dumped into that (new eldar god! New inquisitrix in power armour! Plastic sisters!) and he this was his first appearance.
I think a setting as vast as 40K is reduced and rendered trite when individual characters like this can have such a big impact on it.
"The galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed...(unless you are our fave new character, Cawl, who apparently can change the setting entirely on his own! HOW AWESOME IS THAT? Your characters are totally meaningless!)"
Da Boss wrote: I think a setting as vast as 40K is reduced and rendered trite when individual characters like this can have such a big impact on it.
"The galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed...(unless you are our fave new character, Cawl, who apparently can change the setting entirely on his own! HOW AWESOME IS THAT? Your characters are totally meaningless!)"
Compared to abaddon or guiliman who spilt the galaxy in half or take over the rule of the imperium. All he did was make some new marines. He didn’t change the setting entirely at all. This is what I was on about before. Irrational hate of primaris and cawl. There are always going to be big characters driving the main storyline. See above. And yvraine etc. (I don’t believe they need to represented on the 40k table top but that’s a whole extra thread). They don’t detract from the main setting or the style of the game. They are all grimdark in their way. Even with primaris the imperium is still losing. And cawl is messed up. So in comparison my platoon leader imperial guardsman or back water ORK warboss are pretty insignificant. But not on their battlefield.
I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Andykp wrote: Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them
Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.
I'm not sure I'd say they're classic 40k. But it's good GW are making them less and less pure awesome magic intervention.
Da Boss wrote: I think a setting as vast as 40K is reduced and rendered trite when individual characters like this can have such a big impact on it.
"The galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed...(unless you are our fave new character, Cawl, who apparently can change the setting entirely on his own! HOW AWESOME IS THAT? Your characters are totally meaningless!)"
Compared to abaddon or guiliman who spilt the galaxy in half or take over the rule of the imperium. All he did was make some new marines. He didn’t change the setting entirely at all. This is what I was on about before. Irrational hate of primaris and cawl. There are always going to be big characters driving the main storyline. See above. And yvraine etc. (I don’t believe they need to represented on the 40k table top but that’s a whole extra thread). They don’t detract from the main setting or the style of the game. They are all grimdark in their way. Even with primaris the imperium is still losing. And cawl is messed up. So in comparison my platoon leader imperial guardsman or back water ORK warboss are pretty insignificant. But not on their battlefield.
Well to be fair cawl made:
- marines 2.0
- armor 2.0
- bolters 2.0
- progress in working with blackstone, maybe even being able to use it (not too sure on that fluff)
- new tanks
- hovertech
(To be fair I always just assumed these last two were his doing. A quick Google search confirmed this however, because of course he did it)
All this coming from one guy begs the question what all those other tech priests have been doing for the last 10k years. I would have vastly preferred it if these advancements would have come from 3 or more special characters instead. To me that would hint at the existence of other tech priests that are achieving stuff, or at least would be capable of it ("we're just showing you these three, but there are more"). This would leave a lot more room for "your dudes" feeling like they could do something meaningful.
Personally I fully agree with DaBoss though, so that definitely colors my view on this.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
The guy did pretty much create the Black Carapace under the Emperor’s supervision. A few more organs and some growth stimulants aren’t outrageous.
- armor 2.0
Only new thing about the armor is that it can be stripped back or plate can be added to it. Still confers the same protection.
- bolters 2.0
Upgraded bolters. It’s not an entire redesign, just some improvements.
- progress in working with blackstone, maybe even being able to use it (not too sure on that fluff)
?
- new tanks
- hovertech
(To be fair I always just assumed these last two were his doing. A quick Google search confirmed this however, because of course he did it)
Just a bunch of old STCs cobbled together in a new way.
All this coming from one guy begs the question what all those other tech priests have been doing for the last 10k years. I would have vastly preferred it if these advancements would have come from 3 or more special characters instead. To me that would hint at the existence of other tech priests that are achieving stuff, or at least would be capable of it ("we're just showing you these three, but there are more"). This would leave a lot more room for "your dudes" feeling like they could do something meaningful.
Hasn’t it been implied enough over the years that Tech Priests do whatever they want when they get enough power to do so?
Personally I fully agree with DaBoss though, so that definitely colors my view on this.
I don’t even like using named characters. I wish they made it so you still had to ask your opponent for permission to use them. The Tempestus Drop force list I’m building would be way stronger if I added in Commissar Yarrik and Aradia Madellan.
Andykp wrote: Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them
Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.
Except it’s taken 2 years to get to a novel that retcons/introduces cawl as anything other than a walking plot device, Primaris are very much not classic 40k in any way shape or form they are space marines by focus group designed to appeal to kids who’s main experience of warfare is cod.
Primaris are imperial TAU and given the grief TAU get from some people I am surprised at how much of a pass Primaris gets.
Don’t get me wrong Primaris are now 40k and that’s fair enough it’s GW’s sandbox and they think they found a new golden egg in reselling all space marine players there army again but there not classic 40k there not even grim derp 40k.
Andykp wrote: Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them
Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.
Except it’s taken 2 years to get to a novel that retcons/introduces cawl as anything other than a walking plot device, Primaris are very much not classic 40k in any way shape or form they are space marines by focus group designed to appeal to kids who’s main experience of warfare is cod.
Primaris are imperial TAU and given the grief TAU get from some people I am surprised at how much of a pass Primaris gets.
Don’t get me wrong Primaris are now 40k and that’s fair enough it’s GW’s sandbox and they think they found a new golden egg in reselling all space marine players there army again but there not classic 40k there not even grim derp 40k.
funny you mention children, because only a child would consider 2 years a long time! Also the bit about him developing the Black Carapiece and studying directly under the Emperor came from codex Adeptus Mechancius 8th edition which came out in september 2017 mere months after Primaris Marines first came out.
Now we're simply getting more and more data. which is normal for 40k, expecting GW to do a massive info dump and flesh everything out in a month is mind bogglingly unrealistic.
Andykp wrote: Good idea. I read the book about the imperator Titan not long ago and it gave great insight into how a senior techpriest can operate. Really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
in this case I think it's nesscary as well to combat the misinformation cawl and primaris have thrown at them
Exactly. Does my head in when people say that they are “lore breaking” and fly in the face of previous fluff. When in reality they are very much classic 40k.
Except it’s taken 2 years to get to a novel that retcons/introduces cawl as anything other than a walking plot device, Primaris are very much not classic 40k in any way shape or form they are space marines by focus group designed to appeal to kids who’s main experience of warfare is cod.
Primaris are imperial TAU and given the grief TAU get from some people I am surprised at how much of a pass Primaris gets.
Don’t get me wrong Primaris are now 40k and that’s fair enough it’s GW’s sandbox and they think they found a new golden egg in reselling all space marine players there army again but there not classic 40k there not even grim derp 40k.
They are marines in the same way old ones were. With al, the same tragedy and sacrifice.but even more so because they are often shunned by the old marines too and are out of place in their own chapters. They are also another example of the futility of the imperium. Facing ever closer ruin they opt to make more marines. No talk of reform just re hash the old methods and keep scrapping. Even with them the galaxy is tipped in two and half the empire is covered in demons and horror. They represent the new best hope of mankind and they are breaking even if they are lucky. The galaxy is more doomed than ever.
And as for cawl he is a true mess. A mash up of personas and AI. Huge holes in his memory, suggestions of alien interference. He is the classic mystery wrapped up in an enigma but in classic 40k style even he doesn’t know who he is really.
Now I don’t play with special characters. Never have. But the story needs characters. The over arching narrative needs leaders.
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Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
If you don’t like the period where named characters were around you pretty much only like first edition. I don’t think they belong on the battle field but they do belong in the narrative. They don’t have to feature in the story of “your” dudes. That’s up to you.
You are twisting my words. I do not want characters that influence the entire setting. Saving one world, or a group of worlds, stopping a major invasion or leading one is fine. Doing stuff that totally upends the status quo is not. A character like Abaddon that THREATENS to upend the status quo is fine, but him actually doing so is not.
You said above that stories need characters and over arching narratives need leaders. That is true. But Warhammer 40K is a game, not a TV show, a series of novels or a comic book. It is not a serial medium, it does not need a narrative or a story. It is a place to make your own stories and narratives with characters you have invented yourself. The special characters used to be just that - special, mostly examples of characters that the GW design team had made. Over time they have moved centre stage, so that generic characters are now in the backseat and the GW invented characters are driving everything.
Da Boss wrote: You are twisting my words. I do not want characters that influence the entire setting. Saving one world, or a group of worlds, stopping a major invasion or leading one is fine. Doing stuff that totally upends the status quo is not. A character like Abaddon that THREATENS to upend the status quo is fine, but him actually doing so is not.
But Guilliman hasn't changed the status quo. The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.
The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.
It is a place to make your own stories and narratives with characters you have invented yourself. The special characters used to be just that - special, mostly examples of characters that the GW design team had made. Over time they have moved centre stage, so that generic characters are now in the backseat and the GW invented characters are driving everything.
Sorry, but GW invented characters have ALWAYS been driving everything. Abaddon was always doing his Black Crusades and massing the forces of Chaos to his banner. The Swarmlord was always leading Tyranid invasions across the galaxy. Aun'Va was always leading the T'au into greater expansion, with Farsight there to rebel against him. Your Ultramarines captain was always under the command of Calgar, your Blood Angels always subordinate to Dante, etc etc.
You can still do all the things you've always done. There's always been named characters, but your generic dudes don't need to care what they do. Who cares if the Imperium is being commanded by the HLOT directly or by Guilliman - what happens in the Genericus Sector is not their concern.
Guilliman's very existence changes the status quo. The fact that the primarchs were all gone was part of the old setting's theme of hopelessness and decline. That part has been lost.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.
The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.
Then what was the point? Other than to justify replacing the entire space marine line?
Ultimately the old setting had a real "2 minutes to midnight" feel. The world was on the brink of doomsday. These were the End Times. You didn't know how it would end, but you knew with absolute certainty that humanity was doomed. It was open-ended and left to you, the player, to speculate through your own stories, just as a good game setting should.
Then they advanced the timeline. It changed in some ways but mostly stayed the same. But in the process some things were lost that can never be recovered. The clock tolled midnight and the world didn't end. You can't unring that bell.
All this coming from one guy begs the question what all those other tech priests have been doing for the last 10k years. I would have vastly preferred it if these advancements would have come from 3 or more special characters instead. To me that would hint at the existence of other tech priests that are achieving stuff, or at least would be capable of it ("we're just showing you these three, but there are more"). This would leave a lot more room for "your dudes" feeling like they could do something meaningful.
Remember that the Admech operates as a 'mystery cult', not an organization of scientists and engineers. Secrets (tech) are shared by one's superiors only when the follower is deemed worthy, and the folks at the top hoard their secrets jealously. Trying to invent new tech is nearly impossible because you don't have all the knowledge, and a lot of that knowledge was probably determined by an Artificial Intelligence back in the Dark Age of Technology - so figuring it out yourself is practically impossible without a proper, open research community of scientists. Priests hunt STC patterns because it gives them prestige, as well as something to trade for other secrets from their superiors, not because it make the Imperium better.
Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
Goodness knows what else Cawl has up his sleeve, but his nature is to hoard technology, not give it away. He sat on his finished Primaris Marines for thousands of years because Robbie G was in stasis. I imagine the Admech spends more time thinking about how to preserve their technological hoards should the Imperium collapse than they do thinking about how to prevent the collapse of the Imperium.
Guilliman's very existence changes the status quo. The fact that the primarchs were all gone was part of the old setting's theme of hopelessness and decline. That part has been lost.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.
The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.
Then what was the point? Other than to justify replacing the entire space marine line?
Ultimately the old setting had a real "2 minutes to midnight" feel. The world was on the brink of doomsday. These were the End Times. You didn't know how it would end, but you knew with absolute certainty that humanity was doomed. It was open-ended and left to you, the player, to speculate through your own stories, just as a good game setting should.
Then they advanced the timeline. It changed in some ways but mostly stayed the same. But in the process some things were lost that can never be recovered. The clock tolled midnight and the world didn't end. You can't unring that bell.
The point was to add to the setting and set up a new time block. This whole psychic awakening thing? It’s all happening during the Indomitus Crusade. Imperium was losing, then is brought back for a stalemate grind like how the game universe has been operating for years.
This time block is going to be the modern Horus Heresy—as in, it’s going to get the same kind of attention the very few years of the civil war got with an additional century of story time.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
Ah, my bad. Still sitting near the top and functionally independent of oversight.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
Ah, my bad. Still sitting near the top and functionally independent of oversight.
Yeah - I assume he has 'permission slips' signed by several generations of the High Lords and high-ranking Magos.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
Cawl inferior however has a desire for him to be which is... in Cawl's own words "Strange"
Guilliman's very existence changes the status quo. The fact that the primarchs were all gone was part of the old setting's theme of hopelessness and decline. That part has been lost.
But they weren't all gone. Inactive, yes, but gone? No. The setting and story were always leading to *something* happening, and the two most likely Primarchs for that to have been were Lion and Roboute. And, fundamentally, just because one or the other came back hasn't *actually* changed much.
The Ecclesiarchy and Imperium as a whole worship the Emperor as a god, despite Guilliman not approving. The Imperium is still embattled on all sides, fighting losing wars and battles. The alien is still a hated enemy just as much as it always was. I honestly don't see what Guilliman changes about the general setting on a thematic level that we've not already had with our named Chapter Masters and such.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.
The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.
Then what was the point? Other than to justify replacing the entire space marine line?
Move the hands of the clock, or to put another way, leave the hands of the clock still 2 minutes to midnight, but change the status of 'midnight'.
Ultimately the old setting had a real "2 minutes to midnight" feel. The world was on the brink of doomsday. These were the End Times. You didn't know how it would end, but you knew with absolute certainty that humanity was doomed. It was open-ended and left to you, the player, to speculate through your own stories, just as a good game setting should.
And you still can. You can still speculate if humanity will be able to fight off the waves of assailants, if any more Primarchs will return, if they'll just lose the other half of their empire.
And for what it's worth, we didn't exactly know for certainly humanity was doomed any more than they might be able to fight back and turn the tide. That's what makes the setting fun - nearly anyone could "win". The humans might be able to beat back Chaos and xenos threats and complete the Emperor's dreams. Chaos might crush and enslave humanity. The Eldar might be able to fight off Slaanesh's influence and assert dominance. The Tau might slowly and inorexibly envelope everything in the Greater Good, just as much as Tyranids or Necrons might wipe everything out, or Orks fighting until the galaxy is only full of Orks and madness.
Every outcome was possible, and it still is.
Then they advanced the timeline. It changed in some ways but mostly stayed the same. But in the process some things were lost that can never be recovered. The clock tolled midnight and the world didn't end. You can't unring that bell.
Alternatively, you can either look at it as:
- The clock still hasn't rung, and the hands have moved closer to the midnight hour
- The clock rung, and now it's reset back to another midnight
You can do all the things you were always able to. The setting is still there.
Da Boss wrote: I feel that real damage has been done to the setting, but that is my opinion only. I feel it has changed in a way that has reduced it.
That's fair. I personally feel it's the same setting I've always enjoyed. If anything, I quite like the new developments. The Startide Nexus is something the T'au should have had ages ago, as it lets them feasibly interact with campaigns beyond the Damocles Gulf. Similarly, having so much space be actually owned by Chaos now, having defensive Chaos forces against invading Imperial or xenos ones is now far more accessible.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
N.B. I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
Yeah, it's not like we've had Living Saints in people's armies for decades (oh, hi, Celestine!) or the chosen champion of all 4 Chaos Gods (hi, Abaddon).
They've been around for decades - almost like 40k has ALWAYS had some people who are more important on an in-universe level than others, but that's never stopped people from ignoring them and only focusing on their corner of the galaxy.
Also, just to correct on the Cawl thing - he's not really a "normal" Techpriest. He was one of the initial scientists* who created the Space Marines - which, to a significant degree, might actually mean he's more "responsible" for the work that went in to creating the Astartes (fun fact, named after one of the other scientists on the project!) than the Emperor himself. Plus, he was also on familiar speaking terms with the Emperor, who outright told him "yeah, in the future, you'll be doing things that people will be apprehensive of - don't listen to them, you'll be doing the right things". It might not be the same kind of endorsement that Celestine or Guilliman can boast, but he's certainly not "just a normal guy".
*insofar as that he has the complete memory banks of one of those initial scientists, to the point that he functionally is as much that scientist as he is Belisarius Cawl.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
Yeah, it's not like we've had Living Saints in people's armies for decades (oh, hi, Celestine!) or the chosen champion of all 4 Chaos Gods (hi, Abaddon).
They've been around for decades - almost like 40k has ALWAYS had some people who are more important on an in-universe level than others, but that's never stopped people from ignoring them and only focusing on their corner of the galaxy.
Also, just to correct on the Cawl thing - he's not really a "normal" Techpriest. He was one of the initial scientists* who created the Space Marines - which, to a significant degree, might actually mean he's more "responsible" for the work that went in to creating the Astartes (fun fact, named after one of the other scientists on the project!) than the Emperor himself. Plus, he was also on familiar speaking terms with the Emperor, who outright told him "yeah, in the future, you'll be doing things that people will be apprehensive of - don't listen to them, you'll be doing the right things". It might not be the same kind of endorsement that Celestine or Guilliman can boast, but he's certainly not "just a normal guy".
*insofar as that he has the complete memory banks of one of those initial scientists, to the point that he functionally is as much that scientist as he is Belisarius Cawl.
Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.
I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to noral marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.
Things having names that make sense in normal english/fake latin but turn out to be someone's name is par for the course in 40k. Arkhan Land being the most infamous example, but few know about him 10,000 years later. Also the Belisarian Furnace does for a marine what Flavius Belisarius did for the ERE.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Many many moons ago, and I was young and you may have been even younger.
It was 2nd Ed, around 1996.
Phoenix Lords. Space Marine Characters, Abadave, Fabulous Bill, Kharn the Betrayer et al burst onto the scene.
No mention of them before. No lead up. Just *boom have a bunch of names characters*.
That’s an important lens for viewing modern additions.
yeah 40k has almost always had an approuch of "BOOM NEW THING!" and THEN fleshed it out.
I'd say special characters rounded out the army, they didnt change the future of the whole IoM.
Primaris marines are to reboot SM sales and extend the shelf life of GWs intellectual property. Cawl is the hackneyed patch for the fluff, so as to qualify squatting your old models.
Named characters were initially designed to be an example of the kind of individual you could create. Calgar was the leader of 1000 men, same as the Chapter master of the Angels of Aremis or the Marines Exemplar.
The idea that the leader of the Ultramarines would have any more influence than the leader of the Crimson Skulls or Void Knights evolved out of the development of Ultramar as some sort of mini empire.
What was supposed to happen was people inferring that if Calgar(or Dante or Grimnar etc) could be the lynchpin on which a campaign swung, so could Chapter Master Otto Insertius of the MineWarriors chapter.
Instead, GWplc's focus on trademarked chapters and characters lead to the degradation of the setting as a sandbox and fostered the expectation that if a conflict was going to be resolved, the Ultras or Dark/Blood/Wolf guys were going to have to resolve it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, it's not like we've had Living Saints in people's armies for decades (oh, hi, Celestine!) or the chosen champion of all 4 Chaos Gods (hi, Abaddon).
They've been around for decades - almost like 40k has ALWAYS had some people who are more important on an in-universe level than others, but that's never stopped people from ignoring them and only focusing on their corner of the galaxy.
Also, just to correct on the Cawl thing - he's not really a "normal" Techpriest. He was one of the initial scientists* who created the Space Marines - which, to a significant degree, might actually mean he's more "responsible" for the work that went in to creating the Astartes (fun fact, named after one of the other scientists on the project!) than the Emperor himself. Plus, he was also on familiar speaking terms with the Emperor, who outright told him "yeah, in the future, you'll be doing things that people will be apprehensive of - don't listen to them, you'll be doing the right things". It might not be the same kind of endorsement that Celestine or Guilliman can boast, but he's certainly not "just a normal guy".
*insofar as that he has the complete memory banks of one of those initial scientists, to the point that he functionally is as much that scientist as he is Belisarius Cawl.
Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.
I don't really understand your point here. 40k has ALWAYS had characters who matter on within their factions and the galaxy as a whole, special or not. Creed matters/mattered. Abaddon matters. Dante matters. Cawl just happens to be a new addition to that list. Why is Cawl an issue?
Or is it that you have a problem with named characters having ever existed in 40k at all, and it's not at all about Cawl specifically?
I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to noral marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.
Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I need to read this book, because it seems like it starts to really flesh out the kind of freaking monster Cawl really is.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I need to read this book, because it seems like it starts to really flesh out the kind of freaking monster Cawl really is.
I heavily recommend it! As with most things post-Gathering Storm, actually reading the new material dispels a lot of the initial shocks to the system.
Da Boss wrote: You are twisting my words. I do not want characters that influence the entire setting. Saving one world, or a group of worlds, stopping a major invasion or leading one is fine. Doing stuff that totally upends the status quo is not. A character like Abaddon that THREATENS to upend the status quo is fine, but him actually doing so is not.
You said above that stories need characters and over arching narratives need leaders. That is true. But Warhammer 40K is a game, not a TV show, a series of novels or a comic book. It is not a serial medium, it does not need a narrative or a story. It is a place to make your own stories and narratives with characters you have invented yourself. The special characters used to be just that - special, mostly examples of characters that the GW design team had made. Over time they have moved centre stage, so that generic characters are now in the backseat and the GW invented characters are driving everything.
I agree, my dudes all the time. I don’t play with special characters at all but over the decades the setting has been set in a time and state that was dependent on characters and was going very stale. They have moved the clock and story forward but haven’t altered the ethos or fabric of the setting. It couldn’t be two minutes to midnight for ever. Fantasy showed that. It died because it became stale and the setting and factions stagnated. New models and new rules is what keeps people coming back and gw in business. The fundamental tenets of the setting are the same. All hope is lost. Humanity is still losing, the eldar are still dying and ORKS are still best. Life in the dark imperium is grimmer than ever and it isn’t rosey on the other side.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I need to read this book, because it seems like it starts to really flesh out the kind of freaking monster Cawl really is.
I heavily recommend it! As with most things post-Gathering Storm, actually reading the new material dispels a lot of the initial shocks to the system.
Agreed. to the point where, to be blunt, most of the people complaining about the post GS stuff now make it REAAAALLY obvious they've not done any actual reading.
only for the instant gratification crowd. I, and many others, advocated patience because GW would flesh things out. It would seem that additude has been vindicated.
It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
godardc wrote: It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?
godardc wrote: He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ?
In the far future The Emperor tasked a large British cheap clothing chain started a genetic project to create the perfect models for their product. Hence the name.
godardc wrote: It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?
And it was already established that the Emperor was not an expert at everything, and asked for 'assistance' - such as when he had Arkhan Land help him attempt to cure Angron of the Butcher's Nails.
Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
Not a retcon - Ezekiel Sedayne was 'director of the sub-dermal interface division' on the Marine Project, and Cawl assimilated his memories.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
Cawl's original fluff had him helping create the Marines and studying under the Emperor himself. The Horus Heresy novels came out and made that pretty impossible by having Cawl be some young, low ranking nobody during the Heresy itself. The newer Cawl novel tries to reconcile the two by having the Cawl of the Heresy novels mind and soul merge with the actual guy who worked under the Emperor to help create the Marines.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
Cawl's original fluff had him helping create the Marines and studying under the Emperor himself. The Horus Heresy novels came out and made that pretty impossible by having Cawl be some young, low ranking nobody during the Heresy itself. The newer Cawl novel tries to reconcile the two by having the Cawl of the Heresy novels mind and soul merge with the actual guy who worked under the Emperor to help create the Marines.
It works kinda better that way TBH. Cawl should be a bit.. odd, the answer to the question "who is Cawl" should NOT be, given the age of the character, simple
HoundsofDemos wrote: Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
Cawl's original fluff had him helping create the Marines and studying under the Emperor himself. The Horus Heresy novels came out and made that pretty impossible by having Cawl be some young, low ranking nobody during the Heresy itself. The newer Cawl novel tries to reconcile the two by having the Cawl of the Heresy novels mind and soul merge with the actual guy who worked under the Emperor to help create the Marines.
It works kinda better that way TBH. Cawl should be a bit.. odd, the answer to the question "who is Cawl" should NOT be, given the age of the character, simple
I had kind of hoped Cawl would be Arkhan Land in disguise...
HoundsofDemos wrote:Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
As already explained, 40k Cawl isn't just "Belisarius Cawl". They're an amalgamation of several different people and personalities, one of the major ones being the second-in-command of the Space Marine project. Essentially, Person A worked on the Space Marine project, Person B subsumed the memories of Person A, thereby becoming person AB in the process.
There isn't any canon conflict - 40k Cawl is simultaneously both 30k Cawl, and the same guy who worked on the Space Marine project (as well as many many more!)
And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.
Nurglitch wrote: And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.
although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"
Nurglitch wrote: And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.
although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"
I haven't read the book you are referencing, but that sounds like awful story telling. Giving a character a vast repository of knowledge that he has forgotten but can remember as plot requires is lazy as feth.
Normally in the end of the second act, the shoe drops when a messenger finally breaks through with the vital information or the ancient tablets are finally translated correctly or the villain reveals a terrible truth they have kept secret all this time (NOOOOOOO)
Cawl can just pull unknowable, plot critical truths out of his rear mounted cortex?
Nurglitch wrote: And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.
although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"
I haven't read the book you are referencing, but that sounds like awful story telling. Giving a character a vast repository of knowledge that he has forgotten but can remember as plot requires is lazy as feth.
Normally in the end of the second act, the shoe drops when a messenger finally breaks through with the vital information or the ancient tablets are finally translated correctly or the villain reveals a terrible truth they have kept secret all this time (NOOOOOOO)
Cawl can just pull unknowable, plot critical truths out of his rear mounted cortex?
Gosh, what will this old man remember next?
then you misunderstood what people are saying, he remembers his KNOWLEDGE, but he may not remember the details as to why he knows it etc. So he knows how to make X, but he doesn't remember making X beside his best friend who always sung a real irriating song whenever they where working.
godardc wrote: It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?
And it was already established that the Emperor was not an expert at everything, and asked for 'assistance' - such as when he had Arkhan Land help him attempt to cure Angron of the Butcher's Nails.
It was always official the Emperor was a genius bio engineer / biologist / scientist and I never said he did it alone, it's well known he had a laboratory with scientits. But yeah, keep misrepresenting my words
It is like this stupid Molech stuff they released not so long ago about the Emperor stealing power from Chaos, changing absolutely everything to the 40k setting. They didn't even understood it when they did it...
Nurglitch wrote: And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.
although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"
I'm sure GW will properly explore and expand upon that. They wouldn't just forget about it.
godardc wrote: It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?
And it was already established that the Emperor was not an expert at everything, and asked for 'assistance' - such as when he had Arkhan Land help him attempt to cure Angron of the Butcher's Nails.
It was always official the Emperor was a genius bio engineer / biologist / scientist and I never said he did it alone, it's well known he had a laboratory with scientits. But yeah, keep misrepresenting my words
It is like this stupid Molech stuff they released not so long ago about the Emperor stealing power from Chaos, changing absolutely everything to the 40k setting. They didn't even understood it when they did it...
yeah the setting made soooo much more sense back when the Emperor was simply the greatest genius ver who single handedly made all his troops and weapons with no outside help, ohh and was ALSO an insanely powerful psyker with god like powers that he just randomly had!
Eipi10 wrote:[spoiler] Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.
I don't really understand your point here. 40k has ALWAYS had characters who matter on within their factions and the galaxy as a whole, special or not. Creed matters/mattered. Abaddon matters. Dante matters. Cawl just happens to be a new addition to that list. Why is Cawl an issue? Or is it that you have a problem with named characters having ever existed in 40k at all, and it's not at all about Cawl specifically?
I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to normal marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.
Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I disagree with Creed "mattering" except in the sense that each individual human has a small impact on the galaxy. All he did was slow the 13th Black Crusade down by a few months. Every character with a real (and known) impact on the 40k setting is not human and/or not normal. Eldrad is a super powerful psyker completely devoted to his path, every space marine is a grandson of the Emperor, Ghazgul is da biggest baddest ork. Having Cawl, a normal human, exist alongside these characters is off-putting. It would be like if a grot was also one of 40k's defining characters. Even Goge Vandire is more famous for what marines and custodes did around him than his own actions. So not, I don't have a problem with named characters, nor do I even have problem with Cawl in the abstract, I just wish he was more "special."
Project heads, like Astartes, do not necessarily know every detail of their project. Being two normal people instead of one normal person is not enough. And I find it hard to believe the Emperor had as little influence as you imply. Most all the nitty-gritty work on the Golden Throne was done by normal humans, but the most significant challenge was accomplished by the Emperor (MoM is the book, I think, or was it a short story). I imagine the marines went the same way. I have The Great Work on my reading list, but do you have a particular passage for me (I don't care about spoilers).
Wait are you calling a ten thousand year old cyborg gestalt conciousness (of at least 3 individuals proably more) one of whom trained directly under the emperor.. a normal person?
....... seriously?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the intreast of education here's a teaser
‘I am one of the fortunate few who worked with the Emperor Himself. There are not many of us left now. Old age took many of us. The war many more. Soon there will be one less. I am dying.’Cawl sipped his drink again. Friedisch peered at his suspiciously. ‘I know you must have an interest in the biological work of the Emperor. You were a student of Diacomes, yes?
Cawl nodded.
‘He was a colleague of mine, a long time ago.’ Sedayne attempted a winning smile. He had cosmetically altered teeth, very straight, and horribly, unnaturally
white. They looked bizarre in his chem-smoothed face, as if he were a plastek recreation of a man. ‘He was gifted, if deluded like all your creed. That was before I worked on the creation of the Legiones Astartes. I was the director of the carapace project.Do you know that the black carapace was an unusual part of the Astartes program?’ Sedayne said. ‘It is the final stage implant, and unlike some of the other organs, that can, if necessary, be grown internally from seed germs, the carapace must be grafted in substantial pieces. Once in place, it encourages the human body to adopt it as its own, and it spreads. It is an engineered, controlled cancer.’ He smiled at his recollections. ‘This is now a matter of fact, and the signature element of Terra’s greatest warriors. No other gen-altered warriors have it. You will know a legionary by his carapace. It nearly was not so. It looked for a long time that we would not perfect it. Try as we might, we could not get the body to grow the carapace. It is far from the materials of the human body, being mostly a plastek compound with mineralised elements of rare sort. Nevertheless, it is crucial to the functioning of the Adeptus Astartes. Without it, their neural plugs are hard to implant, and without the plugs they cannot control their armour. As glorious a creation as the Legiones Astartes are, they are creatures of two parts, the biological, and the mechanical. Not so very different from the qualities your Cult finds so appealing, the union of man and machine, yes?
Sedayne sat back, getting into his stride. He was a man who enjoyed regaling others with his achievements. ‘Much of the black carapace work was undertaken by servants of Amar Astarte, a name which is already ill-favoured, when not so very long ago it was spoken with respect. She was one of the greatest genotects of this era, perhaps any era. Her work outshone that of the gene-witches of the Selenar... ‘No one will remember her, in a few hundred years. The favour of the powerful means so much, and she no longer has it. I didn’t rate her myself. The work I received was substandard. It didn’t work, so I fixed it. I made the carapace possible. You could say that the success of the Emperor’s own Legions was only possible because of what I did.’ Sedayne sipped his wine with a triumphant expression."
Eipi10 wrote:I disagree with Creed "mattering" except in the sense that each individual human has a small impact on the galaxy. All he did was slow the 13th Black Crusade down by a few months. Every character with a real (and known) impact on the 40k setting is not human and/or not normal. Eldrad is a super powerful psyker completely devoted to his path, every space marine is a grandson of the Emperor, Ghazgul is da biggest baddest ork. Having Cawl, a normal human, exist alongside these characters is off-putting. It would be like if a grot was also one of 40k's defining characters. Even Goge Vandire is more famous for what marines and custodes did around him than his own actions. So not, I don't have a problem with named characters, nor do I even have problem with Cawl in the abstract, I just wish he was more "special."
How is "personally worked on the Space Marine project, met Horus, directly conversed with the Emperor, has been around since before the Imperium began, and is a cybernetically enhanced monstrosity of a being" not special enough? He's more unique than practically any named Space Marine Chapter Master or Captain (maybe barring Bjorn or Dante) - how is he "a normal human"?
Like, seriously? What makes him "a normal human"?
Project heads, like Astartes, do not necessarily know every detail of their project. Being two normal people instead of one normal person is not enough. And I find it hard to believe the Emperor had as little influence as you imply.
Read the book, I guess.
Most all the nitty-gritty work on the Golden Throne was done by normal humans, but the most significant challenge was accomplished by the Emperor (MoM is the book, I think, or was it a short story). I imagine the marines went the same way. I have The Great Work on my reading list, but do you have a particular passage for me (I don't care about spoilers).
The Emperor being fairly hands-off with the Astartes project isn't new fluff or a retcon. I suggest people try to get hold of a copy of WD98 from back in 1988. It contains Rick Priestley's original account of how space marines are made. In it, the Emperor visits the Astartes project lab, run by a Dr Outek, because they've just started implanting the very first Black Carapace. The Emperor learns for the first time (because he queries it) that the scientists call the artificial organs 'zygotes'. And he's never seen a 'completed' space marine before. It is very clear that the Emperor has no real idea of the details of the project at this point. All he has done is provide the resources and guide the overall direction of the research. The nineteen implants were all created by the scientists that worked for the Emperor, not the Emperor himself. This is explicitly stated, and it's also implied in some of the names, such as Lyman's Ear and Betcher's Gland. The idea that the Emperor did it all himself was always meant to be later propaganda / religious dogma, not the 'reality'.
BrianDavion wrote:Wait are you calling a ten thousand year old cyborg gestalt conciousness (of at least 3 individuals proably more) one of whom trained directly under the emperor.. a normal person?
....... seriously?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: How is "personally worked on the Space Marine project, met Horus, directly conversed with the Emperor, has been around since before the Imperium began, and is a cybernetically enhanced monstrosity of a being" not special enough? He's more unique than practically any named Space Marine Chapter Master or Captain (maybe barring Bjorn or Dante) - how is he "a normal human"?
Like, seriously? What makes him "a normal human"?
I consider a special person to be one who is influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k; everyone else is normal. Until a character's consciousness is composed of enough individuals to generate their own god, I would not consider that character to be worthy of being a special character with an obvious impact on the galaxy. As stated previously, Marines are grandsons of the Emperor, and thus are capable of achieving (though not always succeeding in achieving) a kind of impact that mortals are not. Part of his power is infused within them, same with the Custodes, Primarchs, and Thunder Warriors. Cawl, as far as we know, is not infused with that kind of supernatural power. If he were, I would have no objection.
And as far as the quote goes, frankly it puts these other scientists into the same camp as Cawl. Geneforged warriors were commonplace on Terra, most every powerful warlord had them. The Emperor was able to conquer the whole planet because his warriors were unlike anything before, something no one had done for 5000 years. What made his warriors so special? I refuse to believe that it's because he got "the best" scientists in that generation, or made sure to give them the proper funding and inspiration (unless it was he who implanted the knowledge to fix the carapace in Sedayne). I'm sure some previous techno-barbarian would have tried something similar in all those years. The only explanation for their success where so many others had failed is that there was some supernatural power infused in the Emperor's warriors that made than better than everyone else; anything else is something that some other person could have done.
Duskweaver wrote:The Emperor being fairly hands-off with the Astartes project isn't new fluff or a retcon. I suggest people try to get hold of a copy of WD98 from back in 1988. It contains Rick Priestley's original account of how space marines are made. In it, the Emperor visits the Astartes project lab, run by a Dr Outek, because they've just started implanting the very first Black Carapace. The Emperor learns for the first time (because he queries it) that the scientists call the artificial organs 'zygotes'. And he's never seen a 'completed' space marine before. It is very clear that the Emperor has no real idea of the details of the project at this point. All he has done is provide the resources and guide the overall direction of the research. The nineteen implants were all created by the scientists that worked for the Emperor, not the Emperor himself. This is explicitly stated, and it's also implied in some of the names, such as Lyman's Ear and Betcher's Gland. The idea that the Emperor did it all himself was always meant to be later propaganda / religious dogma, not the 'reality'.
A fascinating story, you can still buy the WD for $10 +shipping on amazon, but I looked at a pdf.
That was back before 40k became what it is today; there is no mention of legions, but rather marines were originally created as chapters. Back on topic, if you believe what ADB says about the Emperor then he would just be asking that question to placate the scientist's ego. It is hard to judge any supposed cluelessness on his part. This is why I suspect the Emperor played a heavier hand in the creation of marines than what the state story would imply. It is more probable that he, a near-omniscient being, psychically implanted solutions and insights into the minds of the scientists developing on his warriors.
BrianDavion wrote:Wait are you calling a ten thousand year old cyborg gestalt conciousness (of at least 3 individuals proably more) one of whom trained directly under the emperor.. a normal person? ....... seriously?
I consider a special person to be one who is influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k; everyone else is normal.
So Cawl, who is influenced by the Emperor (has literally spoken to him) and is blessed with the Omnissiah's power (as are nearly all high-ranking Techpriests) should be considered amongst them, no?
Until a character's consciousness is composed of enough individuals to generate their own god, I would not consider that character to be worthy of being a special character with an obvious impact on the galaxy. As stated previously, Marines are grandsons of the Emperor, and thus are capable of achieving (though not always succeeding in achieving) a kind of impact that mortals are not. Part of his power is infused within them, same with the Custodes, Primarchs, and Thunder Warriors. Cawl, as far as we know, is not infused with that kind of supernatural power. If he were, I would have no objection.
And then we've also had a vast myriad of cases where Techpriests are also just as capable of achieving those same impacts. Like, seriously, I don't see how you came to this conclusion without just ignoring vast swathes the background (which, if you did, that's fine, just so I know what your logic process is).
How about T'au - Aun'va isn't blessed by any gods. Eldar? Eldrad isn't infused with the power of any gods, he's just a powerful guy. Lelith Hesperax?
This is, of course, ignoring that Cawl *is* supported by the power/blessing of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.
And as far as the quote goes, frankly it puts these other scientists into the same camp as Cawl. Geneforged warriors were commonplace on Terra, most every powerful warlord had them. The Emperor was able to conquer the whole planet because his warriors were unlike anything before, something no one had done for 5000 years. What made his warriors so special? I refuse to believe that it's because he got "the best" scientists in that generation, or made sure to give them the proper funding and inspiration (unless it was he who implanted the knowledge to fix the carapace in Sedayne). I'm sure some previous techno-barbarian would have tried something similar in all those years. The only explanation for their success where so many others had failed is that there was some supernatural power infused in the Emperor's warriors that made than better than everyone else; anything else is something that some other person could have done.
And none of those geneforged warriors that the other Warlords made were as powerful as the creations the Emperor commissioned. Like, sorry if that bursts your bubble, but he didn't make them all. I still reckon he made the the Custodes and was the instrumental part of the Primarchs, but the regular Space Marines? There really isn't any source to suggest he was more hands-on that what Astarte and Sedayne did - and I don't see how it's such a leap to suggest that they were just simply the best scientists at the time, so could achieve things the other Warlords couldn't. Was Einstein guided by divine power? Because anyone else could have had the discoveries he did. How doesn't the same apply here?
It is more probable that he, a near-omniscient being, psychically implanted solutions and insights into the minds of the scientists developing on his warriors.
So, even if I disagree with this - by your own logic, doesn't this make Cawl "special"? If he was being guided by "psychically implanted solutions and insights", that means he was "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So Cawl, who is influenced by the Emperor (has literally spoken to him) and is blessed with the Omnissiah's power (as are nearly all high-ranking Techpriests) should be considered amongst them, no?
If the emperor gave him specific instructions, even (or especially) psychically, then yes, he is among them. But saying most tech priests are blessed with the Omnissiah's power is like saying most ministorum priests are blessed by the Emperor. I don't think you can say empowerment by a god is proportional to worship, except in a limited sense.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And then we've also had a vast myriad of cases where Techpriests are also just as capable of achieving those same impacts. Like, seriously, I don't see how you came to this conclusion without just ignoring vast swathes the background (which, if you did, that's fine, just so I know what your logic process is).
How about T'au - Aun'va isn't blessed by any gods. Eldar? Eldrad isn't infused with the power of any gods, he's just a powerful guy. Lelith Hesperax?
This is, of course, ignoring that Cawl *is* supported by the power/blessing of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.
I'm not talking about physical power. As I said earlier:
I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.
N.B. that even though DE ability to actively manifest psychic powers, like a seer, has atrophied, there is no reason to assume their background powers are reduced in any way, i.e. achievement through obsession.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And none of those geneforged warriors that the other Warlords made were as powerful as the creations the Emperor commissioned. Like, sorry if that bursts your bubble, but he didn't make them all. I still reckon he made the the Custodes and was the instrumental part of the Primarchs, but the regular Space Marines? There really isn't any source to suggest he was more hands-on that what Astarte and Sedayne did - and I don't see how it's such a leap to suggest that they were just simply the best scientists at the time, so could achieve things the other Warlords couldn't. Was Einstein guided by divine power? Because anyone else could have had the discoveries he did. How doesn't the same apply here?
Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all. What I'm saying is that for thousands of years warlords on Terra had been recruiting the best scientists to create the best genetically engineered warriors. None of the scientists succeeded in creating warriors strong enough to conquer Terra until Astarte et al. Why? Every generation we see amazing scientists, what made Astarte et al. so overwhelmingly good that they could solve what no team had solved for thousands of years when given, we can assume, more or less the same inputs? I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.
So, even if I disagree with this - by your own logic, doesn't this make Cawl "special"? If he was being guided by "psychically implanted solutions and insights", that means he was "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Yes, that is what I hope. So far, there has been no evidence of this. I don't know if The Great Work or later books will expand on this.
Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all.
no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"
What I'm saying is that for thousands of years warlords on Terra had been recruiting the best scientists to create the best genetically engineered warriors. None of the scientists succeeded in creating warriors strong enough to conquer Terra until Astarte et al. Why?
you're operating from an inaccurate basis of assumption. The Astartes where NOT the tool the Emperor used to Conquer Terra. that would be the thunder warriors and custodes. I imagine the Emperor also was a signfcigent advantage himself due to his precong abilities etc.
BrianDavion wrote: no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"
He was not the only one making discoveries.
BrianDavion wrote: you're operating from an inaccurate basis of assumption. The Astartes where NOT the tool the Emperor used to Conquer Terra. that would be the thunder warriors and custodes. I imagine the Emperor also was a signfcigent advantage himself due to his precong abilities etc.
Many battles were fought with marines, not thunder warriors. And surely a similar team was assembled to make thunder warriors.
If the Emperor's precog abilities and guidance were what caused his warriors to succeed in battle, why did the not suffer a serious decrease in combat effectiveness when he (and his primarchs) stopped leading them?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So Cawl, who is influenced by the Emperor (has literally spoken to him) and is blessed with the Omnissiah's power (as are nearly all high-ranking Techpriests) should be considered amongst them, no?
If the emperor gave him specific instructions, even (or especially) psychically, then yes, he is among them. But saying most tech priests are blessed with the Omnissiah's power is like saying most ministorum priests are blessed by the Emperor. I don't think you can say empowerment by a god is proportional to worship, except in a limited sense.
But priests of both the Emperor AND the Omnissiah can actually manifest divine power from their worship. Of course, I'm not implying that every worshipper, not even every priest, is "special", but to argue that the most powerful of their number and ones who literally have divine favour don't count because "it's just faith" is shortsighted in a setting where faith does grant divine power.
Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And then we've also had a vast myriad of cases where Techpriests are also just as capable of achieving those same impacts. Like, seriously, I don't see how you came to this conclusion without just ignoring vast swathes the background (which, if you did, that's fine, just so I know what your logic process is).
How about T'au - Aun'va isn't blessed by any gods. Eldar? Eldrad isn't infused with the power of any gods, he's just a powerful guy. Lelith Hesperax?
This is, of course, ignoring that Cawl *is* supported by the power/blessing of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.
I'm not talking about physical power. As I said earlier:
I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.
N.B. that even though DE ability to actively manifest psychic powers, like a seer, has atrophied, there is no reason to assume their background powers are reduced in any way, i.e. achievement through obsession.
That doesn't explain Eldrad. He's not favoured by some divine power. And your T'au reason doesn't really fit with your comment of "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Basically, are Eldrad or the T'au characters "special"? Because if they are, why isn't Cawl?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And none of those geneforged warriors that the other Warlords made were as powerful as the creations the Emperor commissioned. Like, sorry if that bursts your bubble, but he didn't make them all. I still reckon he made the the Custodes and was the instrumental part of the Primarchs, but the regular Space Marines? There really isn't any source to suggest he was more hands-on that what Astarte and Sedayne did - and I don't see how it's such a leap to suggest that they were just simply the best scientists at the time, so could achieve things the other Warlords couldn't. Was Einstein guided by divine power? Because anyone else could have had the discoveries he did. How doesn't the same apply here?
Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all.
Of course Einstein didn't make the others obsolete, but he's the one who basically completely revolutionised it. Sure, he wasn't the only one, but there's a reason that it's nearly exclusively attributed to him. How about Galileo? Archimedes? Newton?
My point is that your argument of "it's impossible to make scientific progress alone without divine power!" simply doesn't hold up at all.
What I'm saying is that for thousands of years warlords on Terra had been recruiting the best scientists to create the best genetically engineered warriors. None of the scientists succeeded in creating warriors strong enough to conquer Terra until Astarte et al. Why? Every generation we see amazing scientists, what made Astarte et al. so overwhelmingly good that they could solve what no team had solved for thousands of years when given, we can assume, more or less the same inputs?
By that same logic, "No scientists had succeeded in identifying gravity as a force even though there were LOADS of scientists for hundred if not thousands of years! Every generation we see talented scientists so how could Newton could solve what no other scientist had?"
It's called being more skilled, more talented, or just simply lucky. I don't see how it's so hard to believe that the Emperor carefully curated and located the best talent for his project, and his team just happened to be smarter/luckier/more skilled than the geneticists of all the other (mostly insane) warlords! It would be like claiming "everyone was working on space rockets, so there's no reason the US should have gotten to the moon first with the same inputs, unless they had divine intervention!"
Hell, it's probably the "same inputs" part that's the misconception here - the Emperor more than likely was far better supplied, more stable, wiser, and dedicated more resources to his science teams than other warlords could afford to do!
I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.
Even more than the Emperor just doing it all single handed?
It makes far more sense that the Emperor was smarter when it came to picking out his team and ensured they had all the supplies they needed to foster their superior talents.
So, even if I disagree with this - by your own logic, doesn't this make Cawl "special"? If he was being guided by "psychically implanted solutions and insights", that means he was "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Yes, that is what I hope. So far, there has been no evidence of this. I don't know if The Great Work or later books will expand on this.
Maybe you should read the Great Work then, because Cawl certainly isn't just "a random guy" in that.
BrianDavion wrote: no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"
He was not the only one making discoveries.
But he was the one to discover that particular one.
In the 40k analogy, it would be like "just because Astarte and the other scientists discovered how to make Space Marines, it doesn't mean that other sciences (like how to make boltguns or power armour) were made irrelevant".
Astarte (and her team) was behind the Space Marine project, which was superior to everyone else's super soldier projects, but there were still other scientists working on things like power armour and other things.
BrianDavion wrote: you're operating from an inaccurate basis of assumption. The Astartes where NOT the tool the Emperor used to Conquer Terra. that would be the thunder warriors and custodes. I imagine the Emperor also was a signfcigent advantage himself due to his precong abilities etc.
Many battles were fought with marines, not thunder warriors. And surely a similar team was assembled to make thunder warriors.
Not really. Only the final battles (and I mean, REALLY late in the conquest of Terra) were fought with Astartes. Thunder Warriors and Custodes made up most of his Terran conquest forces.
Only towards the end were Legions like the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, White Scars and Salamanders even deployed. Hell, the final battle of the Unification of Terra was fought by Thunder Warriors (and also where they were massacred at Ararat).
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But priests of both the Emperor AND the Omnissiah can actually manifest divine power from their worship. Of course, I'm not implying that every worshipper, not even every priest, is "special", but to argue that the most powerful of their number and ones who literally have divine favour don't count because "it's just faith" is shortsighted in a setting where faith does grant divine power.
Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?
It's the distinction between being empowered by their own faith (which is not sufficient to change the galaxy) or if they are actually empowered by the Emperor. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I am saying I have no proof that's what has happened to Cawl.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: That doesn't explain Eldrad. He's not favoured by some divine power. And your T'au reason doesn't really fit with your comment of "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Basically, are Eldrad or the T'au characters "special"? Because if they are, why isn't Cawl?
The Eldar were created by the old ones, no? They created the Eldar to obsess over certain things (paths), becoming something beyond experts at them. Eldar who have gone so far down a path that they can no longer leave it are tapping into the power the old ones gave them. Eldrad is one of those.
For T'au characters: the T'au as a race haven't even made a galactic scale impact. None of their characters can match the influence of a Primarch.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Of course Einstein didn't make the others obsolete, but he's the one who basically completely revolutionised it. Sure, he wasn't the only one, but there's a reason that it's nearly exclusively attributed to him. How about Galileo? Archimedes? Newton?
My point is that your argument of "it's impossible to make scientific progress alone without divine power!" simply doesn't hold up at all.
By that same logic, "No scientists had succeeded in identifying gravity as a force even though there were LOADS of scientists for hundred if not thousands of years! Every generation we see talented scientists so how could Newton could solve what no other scientist had?"
It's called being more skilled, more talented, or just simply lucky. I don't see how it's so hard to believe that the Emperor carefully curated and located the best talent for his project, and his team just happened to be smarter/luckier/more skilled than the geneticists of all the other (mostly insane) warlords! It would be like claiming "everyone was working on space rockets, so there's no reason the US should have gotten to the moon first with the same inputs, unless they had divine intervention!"
Hell, it's probably the "same inputs" part that's the misconception here - the Emperor more than likely was far better supplied, more stable, wiser, and dedicated more resources to his science teams than other warlords could afford to do!
I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.
Even more than the Emperor just doing it all single handed?
It makes far more sense that the Emperor was smarter when it came to picking out his team and ensured they had all the supplies they needed to foster their superior talents.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But he was the one to discover that particular one.
In the 40k analogy, it would be like "just because Astarte and the other scientists discovered how to make Space Marines, it doesn't mean that other sciences (like how to make boltguns or power armour) were made irrelevant".
Astarte (and her team) was behind the Space Marine project, which was superior to everyone else's super soldier projects, but there were still other scientists working on things like power armour and other things.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
-Issac Newton
"The Emperor checked the ornate bolter at His hip. One of the very first boltguns; a progenitor for its kind – not a relic rediscovered from the Dark Age of Technology but an invention of the Emperor’s own design." (MoM)
Did you just say discoveries in physics made discoveries in biology obsolete? Astartes and her team clearly did something so outside of what had been done before that all other scientists also working on genetically engineered warriors were completely forgotten. The space race is a great example. Soyuz rockets are the most used rockets in the world, they're how the ISS stays stocked (or at least they were for a long time). I'm not saying the soviets won, but I am saying American (German) scientists had much greater access to resources and funding (I assume they did, the US economy was an order of magnitude larger than the Soviets; the Emperor did not have such luxuries, he started his conquests from nothing) and won the space race, but we still see Soviet rockets being used all the time. The losing side's contributions didn't disappear after the space race, but they did disappear after the Unification Wars. And even then, the Soviets got pretty close to being able to land on the moon, but no other warlord came close to conquering Terra.
Supernatural intervention is required to explain evens out of the ordinary, and the fact that the other scientists serving other warlords are not even a footnote in 40k is certainly out of the ordinary. It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational. It's clear the technobarbarians would also be searching for scientists to run their gene labs. The only explanation is that the emperor assisted his scientists in some way. The simplest version of that explanation is that the Emperor reached some balance between using his powers to find good scientists (which I don't deny was done to some capacity) and then fill in their missing information with his own divine knowledge such that what they could do was far beyond what anyone else could achieve. The idea that the emperor only used his powers to locate all the best scientists, transport them to his lair, and supply them with what they needed is plausible but highly roundabout (the Custodes of the Aquilon Shield do something like that). It would require a situation where the Emperor's scientists were naturally drastically better than the research teams of other warlords and where doing that would have been easier than giving whatever scientists he could get the knowledge they needed to solve the problems they faced.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Maybe you should read the Great Work then, because Cawl certainly isn't just "a random guy" in that.
Can you explain?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Not really. Only the final battles (and I mean, REALLY late in the conquest of Terra) were fought with Astartes. Thunder Warriors and Custodes made up most of his Terran conquest forces.
Only towards the end were Legions like the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, White Scars and Salamanders even deployed. Hell, the final battle of the Unification of Terra was fought by Thunder Warriors (and also where they were massacred at Ararat).
The Astartes project was done during the age of strife, under the same conditions as all the other warlords and their super soldier projects.
It's the distinction between being empowered by their own faith (which is not sufficient to change the galaxy) or if they are actually empowered by the Emperor. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I am saying I have no proof that's what has happened to Cawl.
he was a direct STUDENT of the emperor's he learned his craft at the Emperor's feet. BTW the idea that you literally need divine intervention to change the galaxy is rediculas.
The Eldar were created by the old ones, no? They created the Eldar to obsess over certain things (paths), becoming something beyond experts at them. Eldar who have gone so far down a path that they can no longer leave it are tapping into the power the old ones gave them. Eldrad is one of those.
err no, I'm no expertt on eldar but as I understand it the paths are more a safeguard agaisnt the decadance of the old ways that destroyed the Aeldari empire of old.
Did you just say discoveries in physics made discoveries in biology obsolete? Astartes and her team clearly did something so outside of what had been done before that all other scientists also working on genetically engineered warriors were completely forgotten
no they weren't. other geneticly engineered warriors where forgotten ebcause they lost and thus the knowledge was ancient history. however we know for a fact that Luna was home to genetic engineers where where as good if not better.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But priests of both the Emperor AND the Omnissiah can actually manifest divine power from their worship. Of course, I'm not implying that every worshipper, not even every priest, is "special", but to argue that the most powerful of their number and ones who literally have divine favour don't count because "it's just faith" is shortsighted in a setting where faith does grant divine power.
Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?
It's the distinction between being empowered by their own faith (which is not sufficient to change the galaxy) or if they are actually empowered by the Emperor. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I am saying I have no proof that's what has happened to Cawl.
And what's your source that faith alone isn't enough to change the galaxy? Like, have you actually got any proof for that?
I think I really do have a problem with the idea that "the only people that matter are those who are "special" by divine providence", because that's explicitly not true. It's a nice headcanon, I guess, but beyond that, it's just not accurate in 40k canon. The whole idea of "if you're not blessed by a higher power, then you can't change the galaxy" is disproven on more places than I can count (Tyranids aren't blessed by a god, the Tau aren't blessed by gods, none of the Necron characters are favoured by the C'Tan*, and how about humans who have influenced things far beyond their means, like Yarrick, Creed, Macharius, or Kryptman). Like, their influence has changed the galaxy more than any random Space Marine has simply by being inducted into a Chapter.
And no, Cawl literally spoke to the Emperor, and was told that Cawl would do something that people would say "betrayed the Emperor", and was explicitly told by him that he should do it anyways. Is that not literally being guided by the Emperor? Not to mention one of Cawl's personalities directly working with the Emperor himself.
*if you want to argue that "the C'Tan empowered the Necrons, by that same virtue, a C'Tan empowers the Mechanicus, and it was either the C'Tan or Old Ones who apparently seeded human life, so by that virtue, all humans are "special".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: That doesn't explain Eldrad. He's not favoured by some divine power. And your T'au reason doesn't really fit with your comment of "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".
Basically, are Eldrad or the T'au characters "special"? Because if they are, why isn't Cawl?
The Eldar were created by the old ones, no? They created the Eldar to obsess over certain things (paths), becoming something beyond experts at them. Eldar who have gone so far down a path that they can no longer leave it are tapping into the power the old ones gave them. Eldrad is one of those.
Weren't humans also "created by the Old Ones (or C'Tan)"?
Being an expert in something isn't divine blessing. Eldrad is just a talented and skilled Farseer, he's not blessed by a divine power.
For T'au characters: the T'au as a race haven't even made a galactic scale impact. None of their characters can match the influence of a Primarch.
There's very few to can match the influence of a Primarch, but there's humans who have. Cawl, Macharius, Creed, Yarrick - they're all humans who have done more than some Primarchs, let alone Space Marines.
Besides, I thought you claimed that this wasn't about power, it was about influence or potential for greatness - by your metric, the T'au should have no characters because they're not blessed by a divine power.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Of course Einstein didn't make the others obsolete, but he's the one who basically completely revolutionised it. Sure, he wasn't the only one, but there's a reason that it's nearly exclusively attributed to him. How about Galileo? Archimedes? Newton?
My point is that your argument of "it's impossible to make scientific progress alone without divine power!" simply doesn't hold up at all.
By that same logic, "No scientists had succeeded in identifying gravity as a force even though there were LOADS of scientists for hundred if not thousands of years! Every generation we see talented scientists so how could Newton could solve what no other scientist had?"
It's called being more skilled, more talented, or just simply lucky. I don't see how it's so hard to believe that the Emperor carefully curated and located the best talent for his project, and his team just happened to be smarter/luckier/more skilled than the geneticists of all the other (mostly insane) warlords! It would be like claiming "everyone was working on space rockets, so there's no reason the US should have gotten to the moon first with the same inputs, unless they had divine intervention!"
Hell, it's probably the "same inputs" part that's the misconception here - the Emperor more than likely was far better supplied, more stable, wiser, and dedicated more resources to his science teams than other warlords could afford to do!
I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.
Even more than the Emperor just doing it all single handed?
It makes far more sense that the Emperor was smarter when it came to picking out his team and ensured they had all the supplies they needed to foster their superior talents.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But he was the one to discover that particular one.
In the 40k analogy, it would be like "just because Astarte and the other scientists discovered how to make Space Marines, it doesn't mean that other sciences (like how to make boltguns or power armour) were made irrelevant". Astarte (and her team) was behind the Space Marine project, which was superior to everyone else's super soldier projects, but there were still other scientists working on things like power armour and other things.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." -Issac Newton
Just to clarify - you are genuinely suggesting that Newton had no personal brilliance or ability and was solely able to do what he did by divine power?
Because that's a real world argument right there which I'm very interested to hear you justify.
"The Emperor checked the ornate bolter at His hip. One of the very first boltguns; a progenitor for its kind – not a relic rediscovered from the Dark Age of Technology but an invention of the Emperor’s own design." (MoM)
Great, the Emperor's a good weaponsmith. How does that make him a good biologist?
Are you claiming that a gun manufacturer nowadays could perform brain surgery?
Did you just say discoveries in physics made discoveries in biology obsolete?
No, that's what I'm saying ISN'T the case. Just because Astarte made breakthrough discoveries in biology doesn't mean that the scientific minds of other people was obsolete.
Your comments were reading along the lines of "but Einstein wasn't the only scientist!" - which is true, but the other scientists didn't do what he did, which is my point. So in 40k (or rather, pre-30k), Astarte and her team were the ones to make the breakthrough on the Space Marine design.
Why did they need divine power to do that?
Astartes and her team clearly did something so outside of what had been done before that all other scientists also working on genetically engineered warriors were completely forgotten. The space race is a great example. Soyuz rockets are the most used rockets in the world, they're how the ISS stays stocked (or at least they were for a long time). I'm not saying the soviets won, but I am saying American (German) scientists had much greater access to resources and funding (I assume they did, the US economy was an order of magnitude larger than the Soviets; the Emperor did not have such luxuries, he started his conquests from nothing) and won the space race, but we still see Soviet rockets being used all the time. The losing side's contributions didn't disappear after the space race, but they did disappear after the Unification Wars. And even then, the Soviets got pretty close to being able to land on the moon, but no other warlord came close to conquering Terra.
Because the Emperor had: Thunder Warriors Custodes Bolters Power Armour A superior intelligence (note that many of the warlords are described as mad, which could be truth, or just historical bias) Psychic powers Better military strategy Simple luck
That's my point - much like the US had better funding and access to better scientists (you said it yourself!), the Emperor was able to create better super soldiers, because his military was superior (a military consisting of Thunder Warriors and Custodes) and had better scientists than the other warlords.
The Astartes weren't the instrument by which the Emperor conquered Terra. The Thunder Warriors and Custodes were. And regarding your "losing side's contributions didn't disappear" - yeah, that's because they actually had something worthwhile keeping. The pre-Astartes superhumans were not worth keeping any more than the Emperor's own pre-Astartes (Thunder Warriors) were. It's simple pragmatism. Keep what works, discard the rest - the Emperor didn't need the Astartes to conquer Terra, but he did need them to conquer the stars. But okay, if the Emperor was so brilliant, and it totally wasn't about him having better access to resources - why didn't he create the Space Marines first, instead of the Thunder Warriors?
Supernatural intervention is required to explain evens out of the ordinary, and the fact that the other scientists serving other warlords are not even a footnote in 40k is certainly out of the ordinary.
Why? They were inferior scientists who didn't create anything as powerful as the Astartes. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.
In real life do we hear about the scientists thousands of years ago who accomplished nothing? No, because they accomplished nothing!
It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational.
I think we have very different idea of what rationality is.
It's clear the technobarbarians would also be searching for scientists to run their gene labs. The only explanation is that the emperor assisted his scientists in some way.
Or, hear me out - the Emperor's scientists were just more talented! Why is that so hard to consider? What's so impossible about simple human skill, talent and luck?
In the real world, are you seriously suggesting that the only way you can succeed over someone else is by divine aid?
The simplest version of that explanation is that the Emperor reached some balance between using his powers to find good scientists (which I don't deny was done to some capacity) and then fill in their missing information with his own divine knowledge such that what they could do was far beyond what anyone else could achieve.
Or they were just smarter, better supplied, and luckier?
The idea that the emperor only used his powers to locate all the best scientists, transport them to his lair, and supply them with what they needed is plausible but highly roundabout (the Custodes of the Aquilon Shield do something like that).
Why is that roundabout? Who said he even needed to use his divine power to find the best scientists! It's done in the real world without needing psychic powers! Hell, the Emperor may well have been recruiting scientists from conquered warlords, or simply sending emissaries to every compliant settlement offering security and glory for the scientifically gifted!
It would require a situation where the Emperor's scientists were naturally drastically better than the research teams of other warlords and where doing that would have been easier than giving whatever scientists he could get the knowledge they needed to solve the problems they faced.
You keep assuming that the Emperor HAD that knowledge in the first place. He was able to create the Thunder Warriors and Custodes, yes, but if he could only create them, why didn't he just create the Astartes first? Because he needed scientists who were more capable in biology than he was!
I genuinely don't understand how you completely reject the idea that his scientists were simply *better*.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Maybe you should read the Great Work then, because Cawl certainly isn't just "a random guy" in that.
Can you explain?
We already have. Cawl is guided by the Emperor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Not really. Only the final battles (and I mean, REALLY late in the conquest of Terra) were fought with Astartes. Thunder Warriors and Custodes made up most of his Terran conquest forces.
Only towards the end were Legions like the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, White Scars and Salamanders even deployed. Hell, the final battle of the Unification of Terra was fought by Thunder Warriors (and also where they were massacred at Ararat).
The Astartes project was done during the age of strife, under the same conditions as all the other warlords and their super soldier projects.
I'm not denying that, but they were not the main army used to conquer Terra. The Primarchs were also developed at that time, but they weren't used to conquer Terra either.
The Emperor's first and main unification army were the Thunder Warriors and Custodes. When his power base had been solidified, he commissioned the top scientists of the time to build him better soldiers - hence, the Astartes.
pm713 wrote: Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.
Huh. Could've sworn I'd seen some fluff that argued that humans were seeded by either the Old Ones or C'Tan, much like how people say the Orks and Tau were. Still, if that's not true, fair enough, I wasn't particularly attached to that fluff anyways.
Also, agreed on that the Eldar weren't designed to obsess, that wasn't my argument.
pm713 wrote: Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.
Huh. Could've sworn I'd seen some fluff that argued that humans were seeded by either the Old Ones or C'Tan, much like how people say the Orks and Tau were. Still, if that's not true, fair enough, I wasn't particularly attached to that fluff anyways.
Also, agreed on that the Eldar weren't designed to obsess, that wasn't my argument.
How are Tau going to be made by the Old Ones? They didn't even exist in the same set of millenia...
pm713 wrote: Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.
Huh. Could've sworn I'd seen some fluff that argued that humans were seeded by either the Old Ones or C'Tan, much like how people say the Orks and Tau were. Still, if that's not true, fair enough, I wasn't particularly attached to that fluff anyways.
Also, agreed on that the Eldar weren't designed to obsess, that wasn't my argument.
How are Tau going to be made by the Old Ones? They didn't even exist in the same set of millenia...
Pretty sure there have been people claiming that there was some influence of theirs, such as a hidden Old One, or a something similar. It's the same as how there's people who claim that the Tyranids were created by them or a C'Tan. It's not that I personally hold faith in those theories, but that there have been people who have claimed them.
Guys as to cawl's "hairy see", let's face it. The imperium's game is survival, and when it come to human survival the rule book goes out the airlock. No dealings with Xenos? If enough of humanity depended on it you'd have inquisitors giving eldar hummers.
Space marines have fought alongside necrons in the face of a big enough threat to humanity. Commander Dante of the blood freaking' angels had a face to face with the necron silent king for vital human interests.
On Armageddon humans pass up attacking orks to fight daemons and vice versa.
Cawl's work is essential to save humanity. If he wanted to go to Terra and piss on the wall of the imperial palace they'd let him.
Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all.
no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"
I'm sorry but this is a horrible analogy. Einstein discovered general relativity on his own because none of the other physicists at the time were studying it. Everyone else was studying quantum mechanics, which was the real revolutionary theory of the time. You can get along with your quantum mechanics perfectly fine without any general relativity whatsoever, but good luck doing modern physics without quantum mechanics.
In fact general relativity to this day is incompatible with the framework of quantum mechanics and in that regard has been a bit of a scientific dead-end. We may never have a verifiable quantum theory of gravity because the energies involved are so large that they aren't testable by any craft that we here possess, Gimli son of Gloin.
The better analogy would be Isaac Newton, who did completely revolutionize science. I mean he basically invented physics as we know it, but not before inventing calculus because you need that first. If you asked Albert Einstein who the greatest scientist who ever lived was he would have said "Isaac Newton". If you asked Isaac Newton who the greatest scientist who ever lived was he would have said "me". And they both would have been right.
As to cawl's revolutionary technology, I bet every bit of tech heresy, every bit of forbidden research, every bit of suppressed innovation, and every bit of xenos tech, ends up funnelled to crawl thru the inquisition and the lords dragon. He is authorized by the HIGHEST possible source to access any and all forbidden tech lore and do whatever he damn well wants with it. He also probably gets funnelled a lot of "heretical" techpriests condemned for the crimes of innovation and originality.
He also has an unlimited black budget and carte Blanche access to whatever he thinks may be useful. And he has dealt with necrons like Trazyn, who gave him the secret of activating the necron pylons of cadia. Who knows what tech bits he salvaged from archeotech sites, or gleaned from edlar relics, necron tomb worlds or Tau devices? Would the silent king give him some scrap of advanced technology in hopes of it helping defeat the tyranids?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The better analogy would be Isaac Newton, who did completely revolutionize science. I mean he basically invented physics as we know it, but not before inventing calculus because you need that first. If you asked Albert Einstein who the greatest scientist who ever lived was he would have said "Isaac Newton". If you asked Isaac Newton who the greatest scientist who ever lived was he would have said "me". And they both would have been right.
I'm not really sure that Newton would have called himself a "scientist" as that wasn't really a term used. A good deal of what he did was more philosophy than what we would even call science, even though he did, indeed, do experiments. But that is more a quibbling about terms.
What really set Newton apart, as far as I understand it, is that he had the "audacity" to disregard the prevalent notion of "mechanical philosophy." So, where people before Newton, I am pretty sure, entertained the idea of "action at a distance" and the like, they never took it seriously, since that was outside the accepted mechanistic paradigm. That is, if you couldn't mechanically model it, it couldn't be true. Newton realized that math itself could model the world, so he did, and out come gravity as an action at a distance and really changed the whole paradigm. From a mechanistic modeling paradigm to a predictive mathematical one.
From what I understand, part of what Einstein did was also really more of philosophy than science. He took Maxwell's equations seriously and this lead him to ponder some of the "hidden" assumptions in Newton's theories. That is, of what a frame of reference is/should be. It's quite debatable if what he was doing was science at all, but it was almost certainly math, whatever you want to decide that is.
So, in a way, they both actually share something in common, that is, thinking outside what was the normative paradigm, and realizing that there were assumptions there that were obscuring some aspect of reality from our understanding.
Now, I don't have even the slightest idea what Cawl was supposed to have done. GW might not either, they just throw things in there as they go, to whatever purpose the narrative has at hand. So, could Cawl have done something new, challenged some assumption that was holding things back? I don't see why not, if they want to have his narrative purpose be that of a Newtonian or Einsteinian sort of "genius."
Part of that could be to consider what Xenos know/how they do things. Again, if that is GW wants.
Of course, take all of that with a gain of salt as needed, since I am not a philosopher, a physicist, a historian, or a smart person generally. Just sharing what my understanding is of it.
One thing about the "never seen the emperor keep any of the old warlords stuff" is that we don't know that to be true, as we know so little about the unification wars. for all we know the emperor stole an aweful lot from the old warlords.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing about the "never seen the emperor keep any of the old warlords stuff" is that we don't know that to be true, as we know so little about the unification wars. for all we know the emperor stole an aweful lot from the old warlords.
Wasn’t Malcador rumored to be one of the old warlords?
pm713 wrote:Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Being an expert in something isn't divine blessing. Eldrad is just a talented and skilled Farseer, he's not blessed by a divine power.
BrianDavion wrote:err no, I'm no expertt on eldar but as I understand it the paths are more a safeguard agaisnt the decadance of the old ways that destroyed the Aeldari empire of old.
Eldar were created by the old ones and obsess over things, therefore they were created to obsess over things. They had always obsessed, obsessing over decadence is what brought the fall. Paths were only made to contain the obsessions and prevent another fall. Through their obsessions, they unlock the power the old ones gave them.
BrianDavion wrote:no they weren't. other geneticly engineered warriors where forgotten ebcause they lost and thus the knowledge was ancient history. however we know for a fact that Luna was home to genetic engineers where where as good if not better.
I am sure the early Imperium would have kept their useful discoveries around. Also, as I understand Luna was mostly used for its gene factories and relics, not scientists.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There's very few to can match the influence of a Primarch, but there's humans who have. Cawl, Macharius, Creed, Yarrick - they're all humans who have done more than some Primarchs, let alone Space Marines.
Creed and Yarrick were each tied to one world, hardly galactic influence. Marcharious has his problems (his conquests didn't last, he might have been a saint, and he worked with 5 marine chapters; but I haven't read William King's books) and Cawl, if what you say is true, was guided by the Emperor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Besides, I thought you claimed that this wasn't about power, it was about influence or potential for greatness - by your metric, the T'au should have no characters because they're not blessed by a divine power.
It's not about who would win in fight. And the tau don't even have a galactic influence to measure as a race.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Great, the Emperor's a good weaponsmith. How does that make him a good biologist?
Are you claiming that a gun manufacturer nowadays could perform brain surgery?
Apparently: "The Emperor showed nothing but passionless interest. ‘Such rewriting of physiology certainly hinders the Twelfth’s higher brain function. The device is cunningly wrought, for something so crude.’ ‘Can you remove it?’ ‘Of course,’ the Emperor answered" (MoM)
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And what's your source that faith alone isn't enough to change the galaxy? Like, have you actually got any proof for that?
I think I really do have a problem with the idea that "the only people that matter are those who are "special" by divine providence", because that's explicitly not true. It's a nice headcanon, I guess, but beyond that, it's just not accurate in 40k canon. The whole idea of "if you're not blessed by a higher power, then you can't change the galaxy" is disproven on more places than I can count (Tyranids aren't blessed by a god, the Tau aren't blessed by gods, none of the Necron characters are favoured by the C'Tan*, and how about humans who have influenced things far beyond their means, like Yarrick, Creed, Macharius, or Kryptman). Like, their influence has changed the galaxy more than any random Space Marine has simply by being inducted into a Chapter.
And no, Cawl literally spoke to the Emperor, and was told that Cawl would do something that people would say "betrayed the Emperor", and was explicitly told by him that he should do it anyways. Is that not literally being guided by the Emperor? Not to mention one of Cawl's personalities directly working with the Emperor himself.
*if you want to argue that "the C'Tan empowered the Necrons, by that same virtue, a C'Tan empowers the Mechanicus, and it was either the C'Tan or Old Ones who apparently seeded human life, so by that virtue, all humans are "special".
Weren't humans also "created by the Old Ones (or C'Tan)"?
Just to clarify - you are genuinely suggesting that Newton had no personal brilliance or ability and was solely able to do what he did by divine power?
Because that's a real world argument right there which I'm very interested to hear you justify.
BrianDavion wrote:he was a direct STUDENT of the emperor's he learned his craft at the Emperor's feet. BTW the idea that you literally need divine intervention to change the galaxy is rediculas.
IRL, individual achievements are made with the help of others, building off their work or harnessing their work for something greater than the sum of its parts. In 40k, collective thoughts/action/belief manifests as gods/god-like beings, usually via the warp. Those who get themselves to be harnessed by these powers (the same way one man is chosen to lead many people), are able to achieve great achievements. What separates the two is that actions that could be done to achieve something great on one world are not sufficient to achieve something galactic in scale. This is what gives 40k it's scale. Creed is a great man who did great things using traditional means, but he was no god; he did not have a galactic impact, all his accomplishments were in regards to Cadia alone. Now the warp being the warp, every human has some psychic influence and is watched over by some god to some extent, but there is a difference between a normal plague marine and a daemon prince of nurgle, or a necron warrior and a necron lord (who was allowed to keep his personality by the Ctan). Egro, marines (grandsons of the emperor) are more capable of having a galactic impact than a normal techpriest. I'm not saying it's impossible for any one techpriest to be more important than any one marine, but you wouldn't expect the most important marine to be less important than the most important techpriest (the same way you wouldn't expect the weight lifting world record to be held by a little girl). But that's the case that Cawl used to put us in, but you seem to be adamant the Cawl had divine guidance, so his position makes sense relative to Calgar or Dante.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Why did they need divine power to do that?
Because the Emperor had: Thunder Warriors Custodes Bolters Power Armour A superior intelligence (note that many of the warlords are described as mad, which could be truth, or just historical bias) Psychic powers Better military strategy Simple luck
That's my point - much like the US had better funding and access to better scientists (you said it yourself!), the Emperor was able to create better super soldiers, because his military was superior (a military consisting of Thunder Warriors and Custodes) and had better scientists than the other warlords.
The Astartes weren't the instrument by which the Emperor conquered Terra. The Thunder Warriors and Custodes were. And regarding your "losing side's contributions didn't disappear" - yeah, that's because they actually had something worthwhile keeping. The pre-Astartes superhumans were not worth keeping any more than the Emperor's own pre-Astartes (Thunder Warriors) were. It's simple pragmatism. Keep what works, discard the rest - the Emperor didn't need the Astartes to conquer Terra, but he did need them to conquer the stars. But okay, if the Emperor was so brilliant, and it totally wasn't about him having better access to resources - why didn't he create the Space Marines first, instead of the Thunder Warriors?
I am intentionally conflating the thunder warriors project with the astartes project. I can only assume that both were large projects carried out with help from human scientists. I assume they were organized in a similar manner. (I think it is quite possible that the Primarch and Custodes project were carried out mostly by the emperor himself, but probably not.) Is there some reason why the Emperor would be personally involved in one and not the other? So if you accept that, then what I am wondering is why the Emperor's scientists were able to create the thunder warriors when they only had access to the Emperor's comparatively small, original lab and no state to fund them? All they had was the Emperor with his intelligence, both psychic and physical, but you are saying he did not help them. Are you saying that the Emperor's stockpile of resources was all they needed to out-compete the scientists of might empires?
And as far as the Astartes vs. Thunder warriors go, I think we both agree that conquering terra is a much different than conquering the galaxy, which is why the Emperor made them in the order he did. Picking the best tool for the job.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Why? They were inferior scientists who didn't create anything as powerful as the Astartes. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.
In real life do we hear about the scientists thousands of years ago who accomplished nothing? No, because they accomplished nothing!
Or, hear me out - the Emperor's scientists were just more talented! Why is that so hard to consider? What's so impossible about simple human skill, talent and luck? In the real world, are you seriously suggesting that the only way you can succeed over someone else is by divine aid?
Why is that roundabout? Who said he even needed to use his divine power to find the best scientists! It's done in the real world without needing psychic powers! Hell, the Emperor may well have been recruiting scientists from conquered warlords, or simply sending emissaries to every compliant settlement offering security and glory for the scientifically gifted!
I genuinely don't understand how you completely reject the idea that his scientists were simply *better*.
During the Age of Strife, Terra was divided into warring states, each vying to create the best genetically engineered super-soldier to fight through the radiation soaked wastes. Every empire was searching for the best scientists to lead their labs, they wouldn't have become big empires if they didn't, if they weren't rational like that. Throughout those 5,000 years, one empire got the best scientists and another got the second best of that century. Maybe that shifted the balance of power, but it never lead to one empire ruling over Terra. Then when the Emperor came, he got the best scientists of that century (we can assume), I am wondering why his scientists broke that mold. Do you think they were such an order of magnitude better than all the best scientists of the past 5,000 years? If they were normal, once every hundred years, scientists then for every Archimedes in the Emperor's employ there would have been a Pythagoras under someone else, for every Newton a Leibniz, and for every Einstein a Shrodinger, for every Nasa you have the Soviet Space Agencies (they had 3 separate ones or something).
Sgt_Smudge wrote:You keep assuming that the Emperor HAD that knowledge in the first place. He was able to create the Thunder Warriors and Custodes, yes, but if he could only create them, why didn't he just create the Astartes first? Because he needed scientists who were more capable in biology than he was!
Do you think a 40,000 year old god(-like being) would have much to learn from a mortal human? All he asked Arkhan Land in MoM was to confirm the origin of the butcher's nails. I can't see him needing mortal humans for much more than that, doing tasks the Emperor could have done himself, saving him time.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational.
I think we have very different idea of what rationality is.
I think you haven't read Kim Jong Il's autobiography.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing about the "never seen the emperor keep any of the old warlords stuff" is that we don't know that to be true, as we know so little about the unification wars. for all we know the emperor stole an aweful lot from the old warlords.
Wasn’t Malcador rumored to be one of the old warlords?
pm713 wrote:Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Being an expert in something isn't divine blessing. Eldrad is just a talented and skilled Farseer, he's not blessed by a divine power.
BrianDavion wrote:err no, I'm no expertt on eldar but as I understand it the paths are more a safeguard agaisnt the decadance of the old ways that destroyed the Aeldari empire of old.
Eldar were created by the old ones and obsess over things, therefore they were created to obsess over things. They had always obsessed, obsessing over decadence is what brought the fall. Paths were only made to contain the obsessions and prevent another fall. Through their obsessions, they unlock the power the old ones gave them.
That's really not the case. The Eldar were just decadent, they were hedonistic, excessive - not because of some cosmic design, but because they were just flawed. If they were "designed" to do that, what about the Exodites who turned away from that lifestyle before the Fall?
The Path system wasn't a preordained commandment, it was the solution to the problems of the post-Fall Eldar. It's a safeguard against their past sins, not how they were "designed".
BrianDavion wrote:no they weren't. other geneticly engineered warriors where forgotten ebcause they lost and thus the knowledge was ancient history. however we know for a fact that Luna was home to genetic engineers where where as good if not better.
I am sure the early Imperium would have kept their useful discoveries around. Also, as I understand Luna was mostly used for its gene factories and relics, not scientists.
And who ran those factories if not scientists?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There's very few to can match the influence of a Primarch, but there's humans who have. Cawl, Macharius, Creed, Yarrick - they're all humans who have done more than some Primarchs, let alone Space Marines.
Creed and Yarrick were each tied to one world, hardly galactic influence. Marcharious has his problems (his conquests didn't last, he might have been a saint, and he worked with 5 marine chapters; but I haven't read William King's books) and Cawl, if what you say is true, was guided by the Emperor.
Sorry, what? Creed is infamous across the Imperium for his defence of the Cadian Gate, which extends far beyond even just Cadia. Yarrick is probably even more widely known and respected, the man's a living legend across the Imperium - we have mentions of "Great Yarrick" as far out as the Sabbat Worlds Crusade!
Macharius being a "saint" only occurred after his death, and being canonized as a saint doesn't necessarily mean you're actually divine - Saint Basilius was a saint, and he wasn't blessed by the Emperor, and we have RL "saints" who were anything but. Macharius commanding multiple Space Marine Chapters is also more of a testament to how massively "special" Macharius was - plus, I should also mention that both Yarrick AND Creed had several Chapters worth of Astartes under their command (Yarrick in the third war of Armaggedon, where he was the commander of all Imperial forces on world, and Creed during the 13th Black Crusade, where he was the operational commander of the defence of the Gate.)
Yes, Cawl was "guided" by the Emperor, but what I'm arguing is that's not why he's special. He's special because of his deeds, not because of "divine intervention", much like how Yarrick, Creed, Eldrad, or Vect are special.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Besides, I thought you claimed that this wasn't about power, it was about influence or potential for greatness - by your metric, the T'au should have no characters because they're not blessed by a divine power.
It's not about who would win in fight.
Yeah, that's what I literally just said??
And the tau don't even have a galactic influence to measure as a race.
Well, sorry to inform you, but that's simply not true in current canon. The T'au have intergalactic reach now (Startide Nexus), are militarily powerful enough to resist a full blown Crusade, and have enough influence to rival a larger sector. Incidentally, don't the Tau also have more numbers than the Custodes and Space Marines combined? I mean, if we're assuming the Tau are so few as to "not measure as a race" (which is a ridiculous statement, of course they're a race!), then surely the Space Marines and Custodes shouldn't matter either, because they're so few in number?
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Great, the Emperor's a good weaponsmith. How does that make him a good biologist?
Are you claiming that a gun manufacturer nowadays could perform brain surgery?
Apparently: "The Emperor showed nothing but passionless interest. ‘Such rewriting of physiology certainly hinders the Twelfth’s higher brain function. The device is cunningly wrought, for something so crude.’ ‘Can you remove it?’ ‘Of course,’ the Emperor answered" (MoM)
Awesome, and how does that translate to biochemistry? Brain surgery (literally what they're describing in the scene) is not the same as biochemistry - but by all means, if you'd like your brain operated on by a biochemist instead of a brain surgeon, that's not on me.
I suppose I shouldn't have bothered using the term "brain surgery" as a metaphor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And what's your source that faith alone isn't enough to change the galaxy? Like, have you actually got any proof for that?
I think I really do have a problem with the idea that "the only people that matter are those who are "special" by divine providence", because that's explicitly not true. It's a nice headcanon, I guess, but beyond that, it's just not accurate in 40k canon. The whole idea of "if you're not blessed by a higher power, then you can't change the galaxy" is disproven on more places than I can count (Tyranids aren't blessed by a god, the Tau aren't blessed by gods, none of the Necron characters are favoured by the C'Tan*, and how about humans who have influenced things far beyond their means, like Yarrick, Creed, Macharius, or Kryptman). Like, their influence has changed the galaxy more than any random Space Marine has simply by being inducted into a Chapter.
And no, Cawl literally spoke to the Emperor, and was told that Cawl would do something that people would say "betrayed the Emperor", and was explicitly told by him that he should do it anyways. Is that not literally being guided by the Emperor? Not to mention one of Cawl's personalities directly working with the Emperor himself.
*if you want to argue that "the C'Tan empowered the Necrons, by that same virtue, a C'Tan empowers the Mechanicus, and it was either the C'Tan or Old Ones who apparently seeded human life, so by that virtue, all humans are "special".
Weren't humans also "created by the Old Ones (or C'Tan)"?
Just to clarify - you are genuinely suggesting that Newton had no personal brilliance or ability and was solely able to do what he did by divine power?
Because that's a real world argument right there which I'm very interested to hear you justify.
BrianDavion wrote:he was a direct STUDENT of the emperor's he learned his craft at the Emperor's feet. BTW the idea that you literally need divine intervention to change the galaxy is rediculas.
IRL, individual achievements are made with the help of others, building off their work or harnessing their work for something greater than the sum of its parts.
Yes, but no amount of collective work will just spontaneous create progress - personal genius and achievement is the key part, IRL, if I somehow create FTL travel through luck, talent and skill, that's MY discovery. Yes, I was supported by the work of generations before me, but no-one else made this particular discovery - therefore, it is MY achievement. If personal luck and skill were not the most important factor, then why did no-one else discover it first?
In 40k, collective thoughts/action/belief manifests as gods/god-like beings, usually via the warp. Those who get themselves to be harnessed by these powers (the same way one man is chosen to lead many people), are able to achieve great achievements.
Which is simply not true when you factor in the amount of people who have made great achievements without divine blessing - Creed, Yarrick, Macharius, Vect, Eldrad, etc etc. Now, we know these people were not divine by their own choices or by birth or design. Which leads us to two potential hypotheses:
Hypothesis 1: You don't need to be divine or blessed to accomplish great things.
Hypothesis 2: Those people were all divinely powered, but not by virtue of birth or explicit blessing by a divine power. And if a "normal human" like Creed can be divinely powered, so too could anyone, of any background.
Basically, the very achievements of human characters making galactic waves in the 40k universe disproves the entire theory of "you need to be blessed by a divine power to do anything", unless you wilfully ignore the achievements of those characters - which just proves that the argument doesn't hold water.
What separates the two is that actions that could be done to achieve something great on one world are not sufficient to achieve something galactic in scale. This is what gives 40k it's scale. Creed is a great man who did great things using traditional means, but he was no god; he did not have a galactic impact, all his accomplishments were in regards to Cadia alone.
Not true. He is known across the Imperium, directly commanded Chapters of Astartes, legions of Guardsmen, and his actions defied the very Chaos Gods themselves. Arguing his actions didn't have a galactic impact is short-sighted in the extreme.
You don't need to be a god to do galaxy-altering things. Calgar isn't a god. Yarrick isn't a god. Thraka isn't a god. Farsight isn't a god. Abaddon isn't a god. Eldrad isn't a god. They are special by DEED, not by divine blessing or their own divinity.
Now the warp being the warp, every human has some psychic influence and is watched over by some god to some extent, but there is a difference between a normal plague marine and a daemon prince of nurgle, or a necron warrior and a necron lord (who was allowed to keep his personality by the Ctan). Egro, marines (grandsons of the emperor) are more capable of having a galactic impact than a normal techpriest. I'm not saying it's impossible for any one techpriest to be more important than any one marine, but you wouldn't expect the most important marine to be less important than the most important techpriest (the same way you wouldn't expect the weight lifting world record to be held by a little girl).
But that doesn't mean the little girl is incapable of achieving greatness, or can't attempt to lift it.
I don't disagree that Space Marines will have an easier time doing great things than Guardsmen, or that a Necron Lord is more capable than a Warrior. The problem is that you claimed "the only people who can have galactic importance are people who are blessed by gods", which is simply not true, because of the actions of people like Eldrad, Creed, Yarrick, Macharius, Vandire, Farsight, etc ARE of galactic importance. The hypothesis simply doesn't hold up. Yes, "normal" people will find it harder to achieve greatness, but they still can. The whole "the galaxy is a large place and you will not be missed" applies for EVERYONE, superhuman or not, because it's a big old galaxy.
But that's the case that Cawl used to put us in, but you seem to be adamant the Cawl had divine guidance, so his position makes sense relative to Calgar or Dante.
I'm not adamant about it, I'm just saying by your own admission, he is "special". However, your position that only "special" people can do anything important is incredibly flawed regardless.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why did they need divine power to do that?
Because the Emperor had:
Thunder Warriors
Custodes
Bolters
Power Armour
A superior intelligence (note that many of the warlords are described as mad, which could be truth, or just historical bias)
Psychic powers
Better military strategy
Simple luck
That's my point - much like the US had better funding and access to better scientists (you said it yourself!), the Emperor was able to create better super soldiers, because his military was superior (a military consisting of Thunder Warriors and Custodes) and had better scientists than the other warlords.
The Astartes weren't the instrument by which the Emperor conquered Terra. The Thunder Warriors and Custodes were. And regarding your "losing side's contributions didn't disappear" - yeah, that's because they actually had something worthwhile keeping. The pre-Astartes superhumans were not worth keeping any more than the Emperor's own pre-Astartes (Thunder Warriors) were. It's simple pragmatism. Keep what works, discard the rest - the Emperor didn't need the Astartes to conquer Terra, but he did need them to conquer the stars. But okay, if the Emperor was so brilliant, and it totally wasn't about him having better access to resources - why didn't he create the Space Marines first, instead of the Thunder Warriors?
I am intentionally conflating the thunder warriors project with the astartes project. I can only assume that both were large projects carried out with help from human scientists. I assume they were organized in a similar manner. (I think it is quite possible that the Primarch and Custodes project were carried out mostly by the emperor himself, but probably not.) Is there some reason why the Emperor would be personally involved in one and not the other?
Perhaps because the Emperor was leading the Custodes and Thunder Warriors in battle? So delegated scientific progress to Astarte and her team?
Again - why are you assuming that the Thunder Warriors were created in the same way as the Astartes? What's your source on that?
So if you accept that, then what I am wondering is why the Emperor's scientists were able to create the thunder warriors when they only had access to the Emperor's comparatively small, original lab and no state to fund them? All they had was the Emperor with his intelligence, both psychic and physical, but you are saying he did not help them. Are you saying that the Emperor's stockpile of resources was all they needed to out-compete the scientists of might empires?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The Emperor's initial creations, the Thunder Warriors and Custodes, were created with his own personal expertise and resources (he clearly dedicated more resources into his Custodes), and then when he'd used them to conquer more territory and gain more influence, he assigned some of the best biochemists and genewrights of the age to create an army of supersoldiers which didn't require the same resource intensity of the Custodes, but were better than Thunder Warriors.
And as far as the Astartes vs. Thunder warriors go, I think we both agree that conquering terra is a much different than conquering the galaxy, which is why the Emperor made them in the order he did. Picking the best tool for the job.
Or, just maybe, the Thunder Warriors were simply only a stopgap measure. Again, if you read The Great Work, you'd see that the achievements made by Astarte's team were made *by them*, under orders of the Emperor to create superior soldiers. If the Emperor could just create superior soldiers anyways, why didn't he just do that with the Thunder Warriors to start with?
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Why? They were inferior scientists who didn't create anything as powerful as the Astartes. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.
In real life do we hear about the scientists thousands of years ago who accomplished nothing? No, because they accomplished nothing!
Or, hear me out - the Emperor's scientists were just more talented! Why is that so hard to consider? What's so impossible about simple human skill, talent and luck?
In the real world, are you seriously suggesting that the only way you can succeed over someone else is by divine aid?
Why is that roundabout? Who said he even needed to use his divine power to find the best scientists! It's done in the real world without needing psychic powers! Hell, the Emperor may well have been recruiting scientists from conquered warlords, or simply sending emissaries to every compliant settlement offering security and glory for the scientifically gifted!
I genuinely don't understand how you completely reject the idea that his scientists were simply *better*.
During the Age of Strife, Terra was divided into warring states, each vying to create the best genetically engineered super-soldier to fight through the radiation soaked wastes. Every empire was searching for the best scientists to lead their labs, they wouldn't have become big empires if they didn't, if they weren't rational like that. Throughout those 5,000 years, one empire got the best scientists and another got the second best of that century. Maybe that shifted the balance of power, but it never lead to one empire ruling over Terra. Then when the Emperor came, he got the best scientists of that century (we can assume), I am wondering why his scientists broke that mold. Do you think they were such an order of magnitude better than all the best scientists of the past 5,000 years? If they were normal, once every hundred years, scientists then for every Archimedes in the Emperor's employ there would have been a Pythagoras under someone else, for every Newton a Leibniz, and for every Einstein a Shrodinger, for every Nasa you have the Soviet Space Agencies (they had 3 separate ones or something).
Yes, I do think they were orders of magnitude better - through a combination of personal ingenuity, skill, luck, talent, and superior funding/resources.
You keep saying "for every X, there was also a Y" - but you're missing the fundamental fact that Y did not do what X did because that's not why Y was famous. Leibniz didn't accomplish what Newton did. Schrodinger didn't accomplish what Einstein did. The discoveries of Astarte's team was superior to the research and discoveries of the other contemporary scientists, in the same way Darwin's work was, or Einstein's was, or Newton's was. The very fact we've not heard about the achievements of the other scientists implies that they were simply not as revolutionary or unique.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:You keep assuming that the Emperor HAD that knowledge in the first place. He was able to create the Thunder Warriors and Custodes, yes, but if he could only create them, why didn't he just create the Astartes first? Because he needed scientists who were more capable in biology than he was!
Do you think a 40,000 year old god(-like being) would have much to learn from a mortal human? All he asked Arkhan Land in MoM was to confirm the origin of the butcher's nails. I can't see him needing mortal humans for much more than that, doing tasks the Emperor could have done himself, saving him time.
So why bother with Malcador? Why even bother keeping Land around, if the Emperor's so omniscient?
Look, just read The Great Work. It's pretty much explicit that the Astartes project is a product of human ingenuity and intellect, not because of the Emperor micromanaging everything.
And no, I do believe the Emperor would have much to learn from a human genius. He's not omniscient. He's definitely foresighted, and definitely powerful, but he's not omni-anything. Hell, he explicitly says in one interaction with Kai Zulane that he can't be omniscient and omnipotent.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational.
I think we have very different idea of what rationality is.
I think you haven't read Kim Jong Il's autobiography.
If you believe that I need to read someone's autobiography to see if their actions are far beyond the scope of rationality instead of judging their actions, I don't think it's worth discussing this any more with you.
Well actually eldar were made by the old ones to fight the necrons/ctan. After the war in heaven the eldar society was post-scarcity without external threats. This was very boring for them, and to combat this boredom they sank into more and more questionable behavior. This is what eventually led to the fall; boredom, not obsession. After that the craftworlders created the path system, where an eldar focuses on a specific path. The ones who become obsessed with a path are the ones we know as exarchs and farseers (and other, unnamed ones for other paths). This is not something the eldar aspire to, they describe these individuals as lost on/to their path.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
In your personal head canon, this is can all a dream technpriest's head.
Just wait until they Primarize the Guard in 2020. The amount of salt will overflow this forum and blot out the sun when the Cadian Prime Militarium have CAWL Pattern multi-limb power armor, CAWL Pattern Bellasarius Cawlmanruss IMPULSOR MK VI tanks, and CAWL Pattern Las-Bolters MK VI.
Togusa wrote: Just wait until they Primarize the Guard in 2020. The amount of salt will overflow this forum and blot out the sun when the Cadian Prime Militarium have CAWL Pattern multi-limb power armor, CAWL Pattern Bellasarius Cawlmanruss IMPULSOR MK VI tanks, and CAWL Pattern Las-Bolters MK VI.
won't happen in that same way but I'd not be suprised to see guard get some degree of this in a new uniform and maybe some new updated tanks. "The Lemen Russ is now refinroced with the Gulliman Hover MBT which is quickly becoming a guard favorite."
new uiniforms would mean new guard sculpts which honestly would be welcomed.
shortymcnostrill wrote:Well actually eldar were made by the old ones to fight the necrons/ctan. After the war in heaven the eldar society was post-scarcity without external threats. This was very boring for them, and to combat this boredom they sank into more and more questionable behavior. This is what eventually led to the fall; boredom, not obsession. After that the craftworlders created the path system, where an eldar focuses on a specific path. The ones who become obsessed with a path are the ones we know as exarchs and farseers (and other, unnamed ones for other paths). This is not something the eldar aspire to, they describe these individuals as lost on/to their path.
Mucking about does not create a chaos god (except for the chaos god of mucking about). The Eldar would have had to be obsessive over whatever they chose to focus on, really believe in being profligates, in order to spawn a chaos god.
As a result (@Sgt_Smudge) it is reasonable to assume that most all warlords of old earth would have been working towards something like the method used to finally conquer earth. As a result, it is unrealistic to assume that one group of scientists is somehow exponentially better than another group of scientists. It is an assumption you are making that I don't agree with, just as you don't agree with my assumption that the thunder warrior project was similar to the Astartes project, and we disagree on whether or not the Emperor is near-omniscient, and what "special" and "influence" means, and who is or is not divinely empowered in 40k (for example, I can and will read The Great Work and concluded that whenever Sedayne boosts about what he accomplished by himself that it was just the Emperor implanting the solution in his head). There is no way to reconcile these different assumptions; they are just that, assumptions. But you are objectively wrong that collective work does not spontaneously create progress.
Eipi10 wrote: it is unrealistic to assume that one group of scientists is somehow exponentially better than another group of scientists.
Why? Why is a place like MIT considered better than most other institutions? Why do countries like Germany or Japan produce more skilled scientists than the Democratic Republic of the Congo? It's not unrealistic at all for knowledge, equipment and funds not to be equally spread out, especially in a world like future earth, where there seems to be no global information exchange system and everything is ruled by vying warlords.
Eipi10 wrote: Mucking about does not create a chaos god (except for the chaos god of mucking about). The Eldar would have had to be obsessive over whatever they chose to focus on, really believe in being profligates, in order to spawn a chaos god.
Except the Eldar Codexes stating that was a direct result of depravity, a new Chaos God was spawned, formed by the Eldar's lusts and desires.
Like, that's been canon for decades. The Eldar created Slaanesh because of their excessive depravity, which caused Slaanesh to come into being, and killed most of the Eldar as a result. But, in case I am wrong - please, what are your sources for the Eldar not creating Slaanesh via their indulgences?
It is reasonable to assume that most all warlords of old earth would have been working towards something like the method used to finally conquer earth.
Yes, it is. Whether they had the same level of science, skill, resources, or simple luck is not known, and I don't think it's unreasonable to presume that some groups were less fortunate in their endeavours than others. Just because they were all trying to achieve the same thing (armies of superhuman soldiers) doesn't mean the quality of their achievements were all the same.
As a result, it is unrealistic to assume that one group of scientists is somehow exponentially better than another group of scientists.
No, it absolutely isn't unrealistic.
I'm going to make an assumption, but I assume you've done some kind of experiment or activity at school wherein teams of students try to build the tallest freestanding tower or strongest bridge out of paper straws and tape? Same access to resources and time to complete the activity? Obviously, one group will be superior over the others - and you think it would be "unrealistic" if one group happened to be vastly better than all the others? Could be that they understand principle of weight distribution and construction better than their peers. Could just be luck. Could just be some natural instinct. Could just be any other reason, but the point is that they had the same resources, and the same time, and the same goal, and you think that it's "unrealistic" for that to happen? Nonsense.
Unless you're telling me that school chemistry students are just as capable as well trained MIT-tier scientists, I think that it's completely possible, realistic, and logical for one group of scientists to simply be *better*.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Same access to resources and time to complete the activity? Obviously, one group will be superior over the others - and you think it would be "unrealistic" if one group happened to be vastly better than all the others? Could be that they understand principle of weight distribution and construction better than their peers. Could just be luck. Could just be some natural instinct. Could just be any other reason, but the point is that they had the same resources, and the same time, and the same goal, and you think that it's "unrealistic" for that to happen? Nonsense.
Unless you're telling me that school chemistry students are just as capable as well trained MIT-tier scientists, I think that it's completely possible, realistic, and logical for one group of scientists to simply be *better*.
Right, I mean, just issues of actual material, be that funding, or just greater number of people working on the problem, or resources to work with can have a big effect. Think of how many people, how much material/money it took to get to the LHC. Or, since we are talking more about biology, how much more significant findings could be with larger scale experiments, where there are thousands of subjects rather than 10, or 100. Since we are talking about the future, consider the effect that "big data" could have, where orders of magnitude could yield even greater orders of magnitude more data. Then you need the ability to somehow sort/sift/analyze and do something with that data. Access to computer power, proprietary AI and other technologies could also be massive differences between research groups.
Not only that, but there is also the ethical angle as well. Now, in 40k we don't really consider morals or ethics, but realistically, leaps could be made with just (what we would consider) flatly unethical or illegal methodology. The team willing to cast that aside, or enabled to by some power-backing, would have a pretty large advantage or a team that stayed within those bounds.
Consider, would some society that is a totalitarian state, with a large population, which is willing to heavily fund scientific study, by any means, including widespread experimentation on it's entire population, if necessary and the authoritarian hierarchy in place to mine that data generated likely yield some things that a less authoritarian, disinclined to subject the population to such experimentation state would not? It seems fully plausible that it would. Or even just the general air of taking the scientific endeavor seriously could make a large difference.
Not to mention the sort of contingent (individualistic) circumstances that come into play sometimes. In the sort of way that Einstein did not come up with the notion of Relativity because he was the best funded researcher, he was working a patent office job and not even tied to any discrete scientific study at the time. He simply was the one apt to take Maxwell's equations seriously and actually question just what Newtonian "frames of reference" really were and what the implications would be for different ones. That's not really something you can "buy" or "fund" in an exact way. Sure, more researchers are apt to statistically yield someone like that, but it's not really deterministic, not in any way we can think of it right now.
Obsession is not an emotion, I never said it was; only when it is applied can it create/do something (like create a chaos god or make you really good at something). All emotion requires some form of investment, be it mild or extreme.
Students =/= scientists. Nevertheless, the top tower was never hundreds of time taller than another tower; the only exceptions being those towers that never got off the ground. They never stood a chance, so I don't count them, Much the same way I don't count unholy hybrids of warzone and pit mine like the Congo. A more fruitful comparison would be to ask how much better MIT is compared to BIT (Berlin Institute of Technology). To bring this metaphor back to the argument, intrinsic human constraints mean that there will not be differences between top achievers (which is a prerequisite for being a scientist) large enough to answer for what the Emperor's scientists accomplished compared to the other scientists. Mortal humans simply do not have the time to stratify themselves like that.
As far as funding during the Unification Wars goes, the Emperor was on the back foot in that when he created the thunder warriors. His territory was much poorer than other technobarbarian states, compare the GDP of Nepal (his Himalazia) to France (Franc) or Brasil (Hy Brasil) or the US (Merica) throughout time. Assuming the Emperor used his god-like powers to secure resources for his scientists and not to directly help them is a big stretch, I am sure a near infinitely powerful psyker could do something for most any project. Furthermore, I am sure the technobarbarians had no limits on morals, I don't know of many who do in 40k. And we have already discussed Einstein as being overrated, quantum mechanics was the main focus of most physics at the time, not relativity; and even Newton's version of calculus was inferior to Leibniz's.
As far as funding during the Unification Wars goes, the Emperor was on the back foot in that when he created the thunder warriors. His territory was much poorer than other technobarbarian states, compare the GDP of Nepal (his Himalazia) to France (Franc) or Brasil (Hy Brasil) or the US (Merica) throughout time.
This has to be absolutely the DUMBEST comment I've ever read on DakkaDakka dude, and I've read some whoppers.
...... ok LET'S compare some economies through time.
the biggest and best economy in the world right now is proably the United States of America yeah?
WELL WHAT WAS THE GDP OF NORTH AMERICA 1000 YEARS AGO?!
Furthermore, the Space Marine project was started near the end of the wars of unity. I don't have a exact timeline, not sure one exists, but I bet the emperor controled a LOT of territory by then. including, no doubt, china, which is a pretty hefty economy today (and being the fastest growing economy right now could well by the year 30,000 be the worlds economic engine)
Also rememeber the space Marines where made with data from the primarch project, which was unique.
Eipi10 wrote: A more fruitful comparison would be to ask how much better MIT is compared to BIT (Berlin Institute of Technology). To bring this metaphor back to the argument, intrinsic human constraints mean that there will not be differences between top achievers (which is a prerequisite for being a scientist) large enough to answer for what the Emperor's scientists accomplished compared to the other scientists. Mortal humans simply do not have the time to stratify themselves like that.
Well, that might well be true for the real-life contemporary MIT and BIT, because there is no greatly significant difference in the technological, or methodological practice at hand today. Not to mention, there is a very communal approach to most science nowadays So, contemporarily, it is improbable that there would be large differences in the outputs of those groups. However, we are discussing a hypothetical future where real differences in methods or practices are more probable. My post was not to suppose that all those hypothetical conditions do apply, only that hypothetical conditions could apply which would plausibly give rise to a very real difference in scientific output. In other words, there are numerous things that, plausibly to me, could potentially transcend "intrinsic human limitations" on a case by case basis and leave one group ahead or behind another.
Eipi10 wrote: As far as funding during the Unification Wars goes, the Emperor was on the back foot in that when he created the thunder warriors. His territory was much poorer than other technobarbarian states, compare the GDP of Nepal (his Himalazia) to France (Franc) or Brasil (Hy Brasil) or the US (Merica) throughout time. Assuming the Emperor used his god-like powers to secure resources for his scientists and not to directly help them is a big stretch, I am sure a near infinitely powerful psyker could do something for most any project.
Well, there we go, there is a "plausible" reason, in-itself, why the Emperor's scientists could have had been much more productive. The Emperor himself, in whatever capacity. Even if he only only said one word, gave one idea to one person, that alone could have been enough to effect a paradigm change that produced results beyond what any other team could do.
Eipi10 wrote: Furthermore, I am sure the technobarbarians had no limits on morals, I don't know of many who do in 40k. And we have already discussed Einstein as being overrated, quantum mechanics was the main focus of most physics at the time, not relativity; and even Newton's version of calculus was inferior to Leibniz's.
I only used the moral case as a hypothetical example for something that plausibly could explain a differing of scientific output by different groups, not a fact of what would be the matter at hand in this case. Again, your point was that "it is unrealistic to assume that one group of scientists is somehow exponentially better than another group of scientists." I suppose there are several, at least, although the one of the Emperor simply helping them is the simplest, in terms of needing less further explanations.
I only brought up Einstein as another example of how a "simple" perceptual change, can lead to a very different outcome. Just another way that different groups, or even different scientists themselves. can plausibly have different results.
@BrianDavion
So did the Emperor have some kind of El Dorado up in the mountains? The best description we have seen was in Two Metaphysical Blades, all that showed was some laborers and machines in a cave. Even the Custodians during that time needed to scrounge for resources, Constain Valdor didn't get auramite armor until halfway through the wars. The Emperor was not rich in those days. And do you really believe that Nepal, an increadily mountainous country with few natural resources, will ever become the major industrial powerhouse? Even the swiss economy is mostly built on services and luxury goods.
@H
All of those conditions that would apply during the unification wars would be limiting factors that would only magnify intrinsic human limitations. The only exception being the Emperor, and I don't think you and I disagree with the extent of his involvement. Some (Smudge and Davion) seem to think that the Emperor was really not directly involved in the Astartes and Thunder Warrior projects.
Eipi10 wrote: @H All of those conditions that would apply during the unification wars would be limiting factors that would only magnify intrinsic human limitations. The only exception being the Emperor, and I don't think you and I disagree with the extent of his involvement. Some (Smudge and Davion) seem to think that the Emperor was really not directly involved in the Astartes and Thunder Warrior projects.
Well, it's completely unclear as far as I can tell. He might have been, might not have been. It could be a combination of small practical advantages and the leadership of the Emperor. Or his direct involvement, of course. Like I said, even a small paradigmatic, perspectual, or procedural influence could have had a massive effect. While everyone is trying to get nails in a board with hammers, he shows up and gives them the idea of a screw driver. Of course that is a nonsense example, but it's emblematic of the sort of conceptual shift that could have happened.
I'm just saying, it wouldn't have to be that the Emperor was literally "in the trenches" with the actual research, per se. He simply could have supervised and give broad conceptual advice, like, "try something like this, not that." Not that I am well versed on the lore itself, but another thing that seems plausible in-itself could be the fact that they had access to the Emperor's DNA. Not that they had to necessarily recreate it, or use it directly, but that is something that hypothetically could have given them a research vector that any one else was unlikely to have know of/could have known of, for example.
Eipi10 wrote:Obsession is not an emotion, I never said it was; only when it is applied can it create/do something (like create a chaos god or make you really good at something). All emotion requires some form of investment, be it mild or extreme.
Answer my question, please. If you have another source for how the Eldar created Slaanesh (if it wasn't through sheer indulgence), what was it? With quotes, if you please.
Because, unfortunately, nearly all lore pretty much states that, as I said, Slaanesh was born out of the Eldar's hedonism and excessive practices - not them being "engineered to obsess".
Students =/= scientists.
What's the difference? Education, yes, but that's a resource. The Emperor may have had better educated scientists.
Nevertheless, the top tower was never hundreds of time taller than another tower; the only exceptions being those towers that never got off the ground. They never stood a chance, so I don't count them, Much the same way I don't count unholy hybrids of warzone and pit mine like the Congo. A more fruitful comparison would be to ask how much better MIT is compared to BIT (Berlin Institute of Technology). To bring this metaphor back to the argument, intrinsic human constraints mean that there will not be differences between top achievers (which is a prerequisite for being a scientist) large enough to answer for what the Emperor's scientists accomplished compared to the other scientists. Mortal humans simply do not have the time to stratify themselves like that.
Simply incorrect. Compare MIT to the science departments of less fortunate nations. Why shouldn't they count - they are still science departments.
The problem is that you assume that every nation the Emperor waged war against were roughly on the same level playing field and had the same intellect, resources, and skill: what's your proof of this? Much like in real life, there is NOTHING to assume that the empires were roughly equal in their science departments, and so throwing out the Congolese science projects because they're not on the same level as MIT is functionally admitting that two nations CAN have massively drastic differences in their scientific achievements, no matter what the weight of other people's discoveries are.
I mean, you're genuinely telling me that if the two of us were locked in a room with the same resources, neither of us would be able to reach a scientific breakthrough before the other?
As far as funding during the Unification Wars goes, the Emperor was on the back foot in that when he created the thunder warriors.
Source?
His territory was much poorer than other technobarbarian states, compare the GDP of Nepal (his Himalazia) to France (Franc) or Brasil (Hy Brasil) or the US (Merica) throughout time.
I won't repeat Brian's comment, but it is accurate. Why on earth are we using the GDP of modern nations to determine their wealth in the post-apocalypse?
Instead, I'll just ask for your source on the Unification War GDP of those nations, seeing as you're so confident about that statement.
Assuming the Emperor used his god-like powers to secure resources for his scientists and not to directly help them is a big stretch, I am sure a near infinitely powerful psyker could do something for most any project. Furthermore, I am sure the technobarbarians had no limits on morals, I don't know of many who do in 40k.
Having no morals doesn't mean you'll have more scientific achievements. It just means you'll take a bit less time on testing, and burn through more test subjects.
And no, I'm not implying the Emperor magics up resources, I'm saying he conquers and manages his resources better than other warlords. He might strategically conquer nations who have more skilled scientists early on, then conquer nations who are rich in the resources he might need, and uses those skilled workers and resource rich areas effectively, like a skilled leader, which he undoubtedly was.
And we have already discussed Einstein as being overrated, quantum mechanics was the main focus of most physics at the time, not relativity; and even Newton's version of calculus was inferior to Leibniz's.
And yet they're the ones who are the most documented, and their discoveries hailed widely as the most important of their time.
Huh. Sounds like the Emperor. Now imagine if Einstein became a dictator who brutally suppressed his rivals. Sounds even more like the Big E.
Eipi10 wrote:@BrianDavion
So did the Emperor have some kind of El Dorado up in the mountains? The best description we have seen was in Two Metaphysical Blades, all that showed was some laborers and machines in a cave. Even the Custodians during that time needed to scrounge for resources, Constain Valdor didn't get auramite armor until halfway through the wars. The Emperor was not rich in those days. And do you really believe that Nepal, an increadily mountainous country with few natural resources, will ever become the major industrial powerhouse? Even the swiss economy is mostly built on services and luxury goods.
As I said - it's not about what he started with, it's about what he conquered and how he used the resources he got after he conquered them. We know he started with the Thunder Warriors and Custodes, so clearly had enough resources to make them. From there, he conquers his neighbours, establishes better scientists to do what he cannot, and supplies them with the resources his army liberates. By the end, he can replace his initial flawed Thunder Warriors, with the slightly less flawed Space Marines created by his scientist team - which he can then dispose of after the Great Crusade, provided his pesky children don't ruin his plans...
It's a slippery slope - once you keep conquering and gaining more power, you can conquer other factions far easier.
Also, regarding auramite, the fact he even had some HALFWAY through the war is incredible, because auramite is better tier armour than what some Primarchs had. The fact that at some point, Valdor had any auramite at all is incredible.
@H
The emperor doesn't talk to people so much as he psychically implants thoughts in their mind, so who knows the form of his actual involvement. All I am sure of that it happened and that idea that something like the space marines, thunder warriors, primaris marines, etc. could have been made without his involvement is silly when both are so connected to each other and are integral to 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Indulgence did create Slaanesh. The Eldar's obsessive nature created their indulgence. Emotions are influenced by personality traits.
I won't bother rewriting my previous posts. I have already said why I discount some factions an only look at the front runners (it's in the quote you cited) and the account of the Emperor preunification wars we have (two metaphyical blades), and most importantly why the fact that one is better than the other doesn't matter for my argument, but the unaided magnitude is what I object to (would you do something 100 times faster than me?).
But I will refute your Leibniz claim, all modern Calculus notation is based on his work and not Newton's; dy/dx and the integrals symbol are from him, not Newton.
I'm surprised the Emperor didn't stockpile some auramite during the DAoT, high tech stuff was plentiful them. It's your theory based on the Emperor stockpiling resources for his scientists to use?
Eipi10 wrote: @H
The emperor doesn't talk to people so much as he psychically implants thoughts in their mind, so who knows the form of his actual involvement. All I am sure of that it happened and that idea that something like the space marines, thunder warriors, primaris marines, etc. could have been made without his involvement is silly when both are so connected to each other and are integral to 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Indulgence did create Slaanesh. The Eldar's obsessive nature created their indulgence. Emotions are influenced by personality traits.
I won't bother rewriting my previous posts. I have already said why I discount some factions an only look at the front runners (it's in the quote you cited) and the account of the Emperor preunification wars we have (two metaphyical blades), and most importantly why the fact that one is better than the other doesn't matter for my argument, but the unaided magnitude is what I object to (would you do something 100 times faster than me?).
But I will refute your Leibniz claim, all modern Calculus notation is based on his work and not Newton's; dy/dx and the integrals symbol are from him, not Newton.
I'm surprised the Emperor didn't stockpile some auramite during the DAoT, high tech stuff was plentiful them. It's your theory based on the Emperor stockpiling resources for his scientists to use?
Emperor could have stockpiled scientists from DAoT.
Eipi10 wrote: @H
The emperor doesn't talk to people so much as he psychically implants thoughts in their mind, so who knows the form of his actual involvement. All I am sure of that it happened and that idea that something like the space marines, thunder warriors, primaris marines, etc. could have been made without his involvement is silly when both are so connected to each other and are integral to 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Indulgence did create Slaanesh. The Eldar's obsessive nature created their indulgence. Emotions are influenced by personality traits.
I won't bother rewriting my previous posts. I have already said why I discount some factions an only look at the front runners (it's in the quote you cited) and the account of the Emperor preunification wars we have (two metaphyical blades), and most importantly why the fact that one is better than the other doesn't matter for my argument, but the unaided magnitude is what I object to (would you do something 100 times faster than me?).
But I will refute your Leibniz claim, all modern Calculus notation is based on his work and not Newton's; dy/dx and the integrals symbol are from him, not Newton.
I'm surprised the Emperor didn't stockpile some auramite during the DAoT, high tech stuff was plentiful them. It's your theory based on the Emperor stockpiling resources for his scientists to use?
Emperor could have stockpiled scientists from DAoT.
Or trained his own with knowledge bases left over from the DAoT. We known Cawl in this case actually was TRAINED by the Emperor. it's almost certain this was how the emperor got his scientists, he likely gave them an education and an enviroment that few others had access too.
BrianDavion wrote: Or trained his own with knowledge bases left over from the DAoT. We known Cawl in this case actually was TRAINED by the Emperor. it's almost certain this was how the emperor got his scientists, he likely gave them an education and an enviroment that few others had access too.
This. Ezekiel Sedayne was a 'smart' wasteland dweller on Earth, met the Emperor and 300 years later he's "Director Ezekiel Sedayne, technologist and scientist of the Emperor’s inner research cadres, biotechnical division".
- new tanks
- hovertech
(To be fair I always just assumed these last two were his doing. A quick Google search confirmed this however, because of course he did it)
Just a bunch of old STCs cobbled together in a new way.
No, clearly not. It's not yet another rhino/land raider/dreadnought/land speeder chassis with a new weapon on top of it. Hover STS other than land speeder were supposed to be lost.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?
Not supernaturally protected. Just placebo effect/willpower. Will continue fighting even when mortally wounded.
Well, it's a significant upgrade, hence “marines 2.0”
but not an unreasonable one, and chances are Cawl just finished work on some implants that the marine team ahd initally wanted to do. It's worth noting that he had other implants he also wanted to give them but couldn't make work right. So the three implants are just the three he managed to get to work right. suddenly it seems a lot more typical don't it, Cawl has sucesses and failures and Primaris is simply "the best he could do in ten thousand years"
More difference than between all the previous marks of armor though, so… armor 2.0.
Yet again evolutionary. Power armor has always been modular it's why you can put a MK IV head on a MK 7 torso with MK 3 vambraces. Cawl just took this to a logical next step. It's an improvement but not some huge quantum leap that should be impossiable for a "mere mortal" to make. give me ten thousand years and I could figure out a modular armor system.
Some improvement rather than an entire redesign? Sounds like a 2.0 version rather than new gun name to me then.
indeed. mild improvements, the same thing every army has over time, even old Marines have differant models of bolters etc. the big differance is the bolt rifle is bigger, with a longer barrel.
No, clearly not. It's not yet another rhino/land raider/dreadnought/land speeder chassis with a new weapon on top of it. Hover STS other than land speeder were supposed to be lost.
sure but in this case the Hull is a modifcation of a STC. the reuplsor panels are basicly just copies of the ones from the land speeder. taking land speeder hover panels and slapping them on a land raider isn't exactly a new idea, Arkham Land did it and there are other referances to hover land raiders etc out there, Cawl presumably used that as a basis for his work.
Not supernaturally protected. Just placebo effect/willpower. Will continue fighting even when mortally wounded.
a placebo effect that produces actual real miracles?
........ right
BrianDavion wrote: but not an unreasonable one, and chances are Cawl just finished work on some implants that the marine team ahd initally wanted to do. It's worth noting that he had other implants he also wanted to give them but couldn't make work right. So the three implants are just the three he managed to get to work right. suddenly it seems a lot more typical don't it, Cawl has sucesses and failures and Primaris is simply "the best he could do in ten thousand years"
1W 1A to 2W 2A implies a VERY big difference. Just how many human-like infantry has two wound?
The Primaris are described as very much better than normal marines.
Marines 2.0, then. A big improvement over marines 1.0.
BrianDavion wrote: Yet again evolutionary. Power armor has always been modular it's why you can put a MK IV head on a MK 7 torso with MK 3 vambraces. Cawl just took this to a logical next step. It's an improvement but not some huge quantum leap that should be impossiable for a "mere mortal" to make. give me ten thousand years and I could figure out a modular armor system.
Doesn't the new armor give stuff like +1T in some config, etc?
BrianDavion wrote: indeed. mild improvements, the same thing every army has over time, even old Marines have differant models of bolters etc. the big differance is the bolt rifle is bigger, with a longer barrel.
The big difference is that the thousands of different models of lasgun, some of which are recycled trash given to expendable convicts, some of which are elite soldiers using heirloom, mastercrafted weapons, all share the same name and profile. So did the previous different models of bolters. Yet the new Cawl bolters have a different, more powerful profile.
BrianDavion wrote: sure but in this case the Hull is a modifcation of a STC.
A modification of an STC. Not an exchange of weapons, a real modification of an STC, these barely understood piece of archeotech. That's a huge deal. (And the Repulsor doesn't look at all like a land raider, neither a grounded one nor an antigrav one, if you ask me).
Generally, all of this gives the impression that Cawl really significantly improved on everything marine-related. Not just one aspect, all of them.
BrianDavion wrote: a placebo effect that produces actual real miracles?
........ right
It's basically the “Feel no pain” rule, you know? People fighting despite being mortally wounded. Except here, it's willpower.
It's sometime presented as obviously miracle now, but it used to be presented in a much more ambiguous way. All the effects could be explained both way, and I think it works much better with the ambiguity.
BrianDavion wrote: No sisters of battle's acts of faith are a lot more then just a 6 up feel no pain. you can literally have sisters of battle returning from death.
Returning from being counted as a casualty, which is very different from returning from death. Some medics have similar rules. Only one who arguably straight up comes back from death is Celestine. I'm not sure I didn't read Gathering Storm.
The BL Sister Miriya stories don't present Sisters as walking miracle dispensers and I'm pretty happy about it.
1W 1A to 2W 2A implies a VERY big difference. Just how many human-like infantry has two wound?
The Primaris are described as very much better than normal marines.
Marines 2.0, then. A big improvement over marines 1.0.
The only special Primaris organs are the
• Sinew Coils - something like vat-grown muscles that you would find implanted into a hive ganger, crude but effective. They are basically just additional muscles added around key joints. We can assume there is not enough normal muscle there to gene bulk in order to suit Cawl's tastes, so he added some. We can also assume they have some ferrometallic component from the alternate name (the steel within), and are probably intended to provide joint protection as much as additional strength.
• Belisarian Furnace - An organ that cannibalizes a marine's body to keep him alive when needed. There is a good description of it working in Plague War, same for the sinew coils.
• Immortalis Glad - We don't really know what it does, neither does Cawl, I think. The best guess is that it is like steroids for steroids, increasing the effectiveness of the bone and muscle growth organs. It's what gives primarines their height.
Based off of this list, you can see how additional wounds and attacks are the only real way to represent primaris marines on the tabletop (without S5/T5 marines). I think the scale is completely off, however. A 6+ FNP (or equivalent, say what FW Graia has) and additional melee hits on a hit roll of 6+ would be far more in scale. However, the primaris stat line (AP -1 bolters included) is what normal marines should have always had in 40k (at least 8th edition 40k), so I don't know what to say.
I'd say more like 1.5 but they have the whole shebang; organs, armor, specialist armor, equipment, additional types of armor, vehicles, everything Marine has a new version. 2.0 is appropriate IMO. That said, a second edition is still 'merely' a revised version of the first...
Eipi10 wrote: The only special Primaris organs are the
• Sinew Coils - something like vat-grown muscles that you would find implanted into a hive ganger, crude but effective. They are basically just additional muscles added around key joints. We can assume there is not enough normal muscle there to gene bulk in order to suit Cawl's tastes, so he added some. We can also assume they have some ferrometallic component from the alternate name (the steel within), and are probably intended to provide joint protection as much as additional strength.
• Belisarian Furnace - An organ that cannibalizes a marine's body to keep him alive when needed. There is a good description of it working in Plague War, same for the sinew coils.
• Immortalis Glad - We don't really know what it does, neither does Cawl, I think. The best guess is that it is like steroids for steroids, increasing the effectiveness of the bone and muscle growth organs. It's what gives primarines their height.
Yeah but so what? We have only 3 new weird pseudosciencemagic items, it still makes them massively more powerful.
Eipi10 wrote: Based off of this list, you can see how additional wounds and attacks are the only real way to represent primaris marines on the tabletop
Uh, no? Not at all?
Eipi10 wrote: However, the primaris stat line (AP -1 bolters included) is what normal marines should have always had in 40k (at least 8th edition 40k)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'd say more like 1.5 but they have the whole shebang; organs, armor, specialist armor, equipment, additional types of armor, vehicles, everything Marine has a new version. 2.0 is appropriate IMO. That said, a second edition is still 'merely' a revised version of the first...
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!
Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!
Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.
When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!
Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.
When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*
Ah, so he didn't directly swear fealty, but feigned it under the impression that since he had his superior did so, that he could fly under the radar and sabotage the Warmaster's efforts. Clever.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!
Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.
When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*
Ah, so he didn't directly swear fealty, but feigned it under the impression that since he had his superior did so, that he could fly under the radar and sabotage the Warmaster's efforts. Clever.
well it was hardly a master plan, he just kept his head down and made use of the oppertunity, go read the HH novel Wolfsbane. it's a great read and explains it all
It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
godardc wrote: It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"
godardc wrote:It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: Cough cough, just don't mention the time Cawl pledged himself to the Warmaster who was all amped up on Chaos in order to save his toaster butt!
Wait, wha?! Can someone please elaborate on this? While I'm not well versed in Cawl/AdMech lore, I'm very interested to know.
When Cawl was a minor acyolyte the station he was assigned to was captured by Horus, Cawl's direct superior swore fealty. Cawl pretty much sabotoged the warmaster first chance he got and proably saved the space wolves legion from destruction, but we're supposed to remember that he swore fealty. *eyeroll*
Ah, so he didn't directly swear fealty, but feigned it under the impression that since he had his superior did so, that he could fly under the radar and sabotage the Warmaster's efforts. Clever.
Pretty much. It would be like turning round and claiming that Tarvitz, Garro and Qruze were all traitors because they weren't deployed on Istvaan III and weren't chosen to be purged by their Primarchs. He faked loyalty to Horus but was never swayed by him or tempted by Chaos.
godardc wrote: It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"
When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.
godardc wrote: It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"
When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.
He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point
I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?
godardc wrote: It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"
When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.
He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point
I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?
We've meant different things by everyone I think. You seem to mean he hops between Mechanicum sects while I meant he hops between species. Like Fabius studied with Haemonculus, Cawl should have studied with Xenos like a less Chaosy Fabius.
That's because you're reducing it. It's more what is Cawl doing for Guilliman? What did Guilliman do to get this guy bouncing around the races to stay in place? And so on.
So his consequence is he can't get a job he doesn't want? That's like saying a consequence for the Space Wolves rebelliousness is that they'll never get to sit down on Terra and paint rainbows. The Imperium is a place where despite being viewed as a kind of angel the church still assassinates Space Wolves but Cawl losing a friend and not getting a job is nothing by comparison. He's blatantly made AI and anyone not a Mary Sue would be spending their time dodging the various people shooting at him in that moment or hiding very far from other people.
godardc wrote: It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"
When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.
He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point
I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?
We've meant different things by everyone I think. You seem to mean he hops between Mechanicum sects while I meant he hops between species. Like Fabius studied with Haemonculus, Cawl should have studied with Xenos like a less Chaosy Fabius..
He has already done this, did he not learn how to revive Rowboat with Eldar tech? Did he not learn from and then merge with a Necron facility, gain control over the scarabs, and trick a C'tan? he is a devout disciple of Xenos tech, he actually states that the Necron facilities and pylons are the key to closing the warp rifts.
godardc wrote: It could have given him, finally, some interesting background. But no. They definitely want this characters to appears even more Mary Sue and be hated, it's crazy they couldn't have failed his development more.
guessing you've never read the book in question. I was summerizing a 300 page novel dude. If "ohh he stayed loyal while his direct superior went traitor" is a sign of a mary sue I guess that Make Garro, Loken, and the dozen or so other such characters in the HH "Mary sue"
When combined with everything else he does it's very much Mary Sueish. They could have made it interesting and have Cawl hop around every side just to get their knowledge and move on and have the idea he's with Guilliman because that's the best for his goal. But instead he's just a super amazing tech priest who flaunts rules and tradition and has very few consequences for it.
He does hop around and get knowledge from everyone, it notes specificly he's still the low rank he was because he essentially refused to specialize, so he hopped from appprenticeship to apprenticeship. he just doesn't have an intreast in chaos. The number of specific people who make up who Cawl is is also a huuuugely intreasting plot point
I'm sorry but I just don't get how "LOL he's evil and will inevitably betray you" is all that intreasting, but some people seem to imply that's the only way a character can be intresting. I find that kinda boring myself. as for no concequences, Cawl has outright admitted that he knows he'd never ever be fabricator general.... granted he's not intreasted in it as it's a political position that would detract from his work. Meanwhile Cawl Inferior is intreasted. suggests things aren't working out perfectly are they? Ohh did I mention Cawl lost his best friend when he gained his knowledge of the black carapiece and he's been so guilt wracked by it he effectively keeps making cloned adjuctants of the guy to serve as his aide?
We've meant different things by everyone I think. You seem to mean he hops between Mechanicum sects while I meant he hops between species. Like Fabius studied with Haemonculus, Cawl should have studied with Xenos like a less Chaosy Fabius..
He has already done this, did he not learn how to revive Rowboat with Eldar tech? Did he not learn from and then merge with a Necron facility, gain control over the scarabs, and trick a C'tan? he is a devout disciple of Xenos tech, he actually states that the Necron facilities and pylons are the key to closing the warp rifts.
Last I checked he Ynnari revived Guilliman via their god. He's hardly a devout disciple when he has no training in them, nobody teaching it to him and all he's done is watch someone do a thing and hijack a building.
Beersarius Drawl wrote: He has already done this, did he not learn how to revive Rowboat with Eldar tech? Did he not learn from and then merge with a Necron facility, gain control over the scarabs, and trick a C'tan? he is a devout disciple of Xenos tech, he actually states that the Necron facilities and pylons are the key to closing the warp rifts.
Last I checked he Ynnari revived Guilliman via their god. He's hardly a devout disciple when he has no training in them, nobody teaching it to him and all he's done is watch someone do a thing and hijack a building.
I agree that he's not exactly "learned" from the Ynnari, but the Necrons? Like, our first introduction to him has him being a pretty smart guy on Necron tech having learned from Trazyn about the pylons on Cadia, and presumably more. I'd say he's very much learned from them, and may be one of the most foremost adepts of the Mechanicus on Necron tech.
That doesn't explain his knowledge on Space Marine biology (his connection to one of the initial scientists does though), but it certainly fulfils the "he studied with a non-Imperial scientist" that you claimed would make him not!Mary-Sue.
Did they say if Cawl was going to wake up all the the hibernating IFs on the Phalanx? If I remember right theres like a 10 chapters worth of them sleeping.
Red Marine wrote: Did they say if Cawl was going to wake up all the the hibernating IFs on the Phalanx? If I remember right theres like a 10 chapters worth of them sleeping.
Hadn't heard about that. I thought the Fists had a ton of geneseed on the Phalanx, but actual hibernating IFs numbering in the thousands? Not sure about that, is there a source?
Red Marine wrote: Did they say if Cawl was going to wake up all the the hibernating IFs on the Phalanx? If I remember right theres like a 10 chapters worth of them sleeping.
I've never hard of 10 chapters of IFs sleeping on Phalanx, whats your source?
If I understand the hierarchy of the Adeptus Mechanicus/Priesthood of Mars correctly, Cawl isn't even top dog, yet has been at the forefront of most, if not all technological improvements made to the Astartes and the Imperium in general. So, why isn't he the Fabricator-General? I mean, after 10,000+ years, you'd think that he would be. To top it all off, Roboute Guilliman, Lord Commander of the Imperium, could just change the status quo and make him the Fabricator-General on the council to the High Lords of Terra and have Cawl overhawl the Mechanicus to new standards. Oud Oudia Raskian, the current Fabricator-General, has laid the Adeptus Mechanicus in a place of stagnancy and was against the Adeptus Custodes from leaving Terra. In with the new, out the old?
Psionara wrote: If I understand the hierarchy of the Adeptus Mechanicus/Priesthood of Mars correctly, Cawl isn't even top dog, yet has been at the forefront of most, if not all technological improvements made to the Astartes and the Imperium in general. So, why isn't he the Fabricator-General? I mean, after 10,000+ years, you'd think that he would be. To top it all off, Roboute Guilliman, Lord Commander of the Imperium, could just change the status quo and make him the Fabricator-General on the council to the High Lords of Terra and have Cawl overhawl the Mechanicus to new standards. Oud Oudia Raskian, the current Fabricator-General, has laid the Adeptus Mechanicus in a place of stagnancy and was against the Adeptus Custodes from leaving Terra. In with the new, out the old?
He's not top dog because he IS at the forefront of a bunch of NEW development.
that means two things.
1: He's rubbing people the wrong way by creating new things. (that makes enemies in the hidebound admech)
2: he's not running around politiking.
Cawl openly admits he'd never win the post and... he doesn't really want it
Psionara wrote: If I understand the hierarchy of the Adeptus Mechanicus/Priesthood of Mars correctly, Cawl isn't even top dog, yet has been at the forefront of most, if not all technological improvements made to the Astartes and the Imperium in general. So, why isn't he the Fabricator-General? I mean, after 10,000+ years, you'd think that he would be. To top it all off, Roboute Guilliman, Lord Commander of the Imperium, could just change the status quo and make him the Fabricator-General on the council to the High Lords of Terra and have Cawl overhawl the Mechanicus to new standards. Oud Oudia Raskian, the current Fabricator-General, has laid the Adeptus Mechanicus in a place of stagnancy and was against the Adeptus Custodes from leaving Terra. In with the new, out the old?
He's not top dog because he IS at the forefront of a bunch of NEW development.
that means two things.
1: He's rubbing people the wrong way by creating new things. (that makes enemies in the hidebound admech)
2: he's not running around politiking.
Cawl openly admits he'd never win the post and... he doesn't really want it
Yep. This is from 'To Speak as One', spoken by a tech-priest in service to the Inquisition:
‘He is a heretic and a blasphemer,’ said Gamma firmly. ‘He pollutes the Omnissiah’s work with his meddling. He makes free use of xenos technology, and,’ his voice thickened with disgust, ‘he conducts original research. We cannot give him the aeldari. Who knows what perfidious use he will put it to
And this is the section of 'The Great Work'
'Your requests to be Fabricator General of Mars irritate him,’ said Felix. ‘And reveal the depths of your ambition.’
At that Cawl’s weird locomotion ceased, and he turned about suddenly to look at Felix. The drones’ smooth working hiccupped, and Cawl had to bring them back under control. When he had, his voice was concerned.
‘I have done no such thing,’ said Cawl.
‘Your machine, the Cawl Inferior, it keeps asking him. With every message,’ said Felix.
The scarabs continued their excavation, drawing away from the humans.
‘Really? That is interesting. I will have to do something about that.’
‘Do not pretend you do not know. This repeated request irritates the Lord Guilliman more than anything. He says you know you cannot be made the leader of the Martian Cult. Not without risking civil war.’
‘Of course I can’t be Fabricator General!’ said Cawl. He set off again, his feet tip-tapping on the glossy floor. ‘Half the Mechanicus think me the anti-maker cloaked in metal and flesh.’ He swayed in close to deliver a loud stage whisper to Felix. ‘I do research, you know. There are some that call me scientist!’ He laughed. ‘There would be immediate and devastating violence across all the forge worlds if I raised so much as a meaningful eyebrow in the direction of the Fabricator General’s Forge. We would suffer a replay of the Heresy itself. Though I do admit that makes me sound a little full of myself, it is true.’
‘Then why do you keep requesting it be done?’
Cawl smiled. ‘Here’s the funny thing, Decimus – I don’t. I have no wish to be Fabricator General. Absolutely none whatsoever. It is a political role. I am not a politician, I am a genius. I do not crave power. I have no desire to rule. Rulership comes with many responsibilities. Responsibilities are fetters, and genius should never, ever be fettered. Do you really believe that is my heart’s desire?’ He chuckled and shook his head. ‘No, no, no.'
Red Marine wrote: Did they say if Cawl was going to wake up all the the hibernating IFs on the Phalanx? If I remember right theres like a 10 chapters worth of them sleeping.
I've never hard of 10 chapters of IFs sleeping on Phalanx, whats your source?
I remember that the IFs had a problem with the Sus-an Membrane. It caused marines to fall in to comas at weird times that couldn't be recovered from. I cant say if it was cannon or not. Sorry, if it ain't red I don't know.
No, that's what I'm saying ISN'T the case. Just because Astarte made breakthrough discoveries in biology doesn't mean that the scientific minds of other people was obsolete.
