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Guilliman's very existence changes the status quo. The fact that the primarchs were all gone was part of the old setting's theme of hopelessness and decline. That part has been lost.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.
The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.
Then what was the point? Other than to justify replacing the entire space marine line?
Ultimately the old setting had a real "2 minutes to midnight" feel. The world was on the brink of doomsday. These were the End Times. You didn't know how it would end, but you knew with absolute certainty that humanity was doomed. It was open-ended and left to you, the player, to speculate through your own stories, just as a good game setting should.
Then they advanced the timeline. It changed in some ways but mostly stayed the same. But in the process some things were lost that can never be recovered. The clock tolled midnight and the world didn't end. You can't unring that bell.
All this coming from one guy begs the question what all those other tech priests have been doing for the last 10k years. I would have vastly preferred it if these advancements would have come from 3 or more special characters instead. To me that would hint at the existence of other tech priests that are achieving stuff, or at least would be capable of it ("we're just showing you these three, but there are more"). This would leave a lot more room for "your dudes" feeling like they could do something meaningful.
Remember that the Admech operates as a 'mystery cult', not an organization of scientists and engineers. Secrets (tech) are shared by one's superiors only when the follower is deemed worthy, and the folks at the top hoard their secrets jealously. Trying to invent new tech is nearly impossible because you don't have all the knowledge, and a lot of that knowledge was probably determined by an Artificial Intelligence back in the Dark Age of Technology - so figuring it out yourself is practically impossible without a proper, open research community of scientists. Priests hunt STC patterns because it gives them prestige, as well as something to trade for other secrets from their superiors, not because it make the Imperium better.
Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
Goodness knows what else Cawl has up his sleeve, but his nature is to hoard technology, not give it away. He sat on his finished Primaris Marines for thousands of years because Robbie G was in stasis. I imagine the Admech spends more time thinking about how to preserve their technological hoards should the Imperium collapse than they do thinking about how to prevent the collapse of the Imperium.
Guilliman's very existence changes the status quo. The fact that the primarchs were all gone was part of the old setting's theme of hopelessness and decline. That part has been lost.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.
The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.
Then what was the point? Other than to justify replacing the entire space marine line?
Ultimately the old setting had a real "2 minutes to midnight" feel. The world was on the brink of doomsday. These were the End Times. You didn't know how it would end, but you knew with absolute certainty that humanity was doomed. It was open-ended and left to you, the player, to speculate through your own stories, just as a good game setting should.
Then they advanced the timeline. It changed in some ways but mostly stayed the same. But in the process some things were lost that can never be recovered. The clock tolled midnight and the world didn't end. You can't unring that bell.
The point was to add to the setting and set up a new time block. This whole psychic awakening thing? It’s all happening during the Indomitus Crusade. Imperium was losing, then is brought back for a stalemate grind like how the game universe has been operating for years.
This time block is going to be the modern Horus Heresy—as in, it’s going to get the same kind of attention the very few years of the civil war got with an additional century of story time.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
Ah, my bad. Still sitting near the top and functionally independent of oversight.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
Ah, my bad. Still sitting near the top and functionally independent of oversight.
Yeah - I assume he has 'permission slips' signed by several generations of the High Lords and high-ranking Magos.
John Prins wrote: Cawl sits on the top of the pyramid. If he doesn't have all the secrets, he's got most of them, and there's no one to stop him from bending or breaking a few rules in his many, many laboratories. In fact, as the Fabricator General of Mars, he gets to dictate what the rules of the Cult of the Omnissiah are, so in some ways he literally cannot commit tech-heresy. Forbidden tech is only forbidden to the lower ranks because they're not wise enough to be cautious with it.
But Cawl's not Fabricator General, and has said he has no desire to be.
Cawl inferior however has a desire for him to be which is... in Cawl's own words "Strange"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Guilliman's very existence changes the status quo. The fact that the primarchs were all gone was part of the old setting's theme of hopelessness and decline. That part has been lost.
But they weren't all gone. Inactive, yes, but gone? No. The setting and story were always leading to *something* happening, and the two most likely Primarchs for that to have been were Lion and Roboute. And, fundamentally, just because one or the other came back hasn't *actually* changed much.
The Ecclesiarchy and Imperium as a whole worship the Emperor as a god, despite Guilliman not approving. The Imperium is still embattled on all sides, fighting losing wars and battles. The alien is still a hated enemy just as much as it always was. I honestly don't see what Guilliman changes about the general setting on a thematic level that we've not already had with our named Chapter Masters and such.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The Imperium's still surrounded on all fronts, fighting a losing war. Chaos still threatens to corrupt and strike at the Imperium. Space Marines are still genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour and with bolters.
The general state of the 40k universe is still fundamentally the same - the maps look different, the place names changed and the characters are more famous, but we've hardly gone from "the Imperium is losing - now they're winning!" If the setting was midway through the Indomitus Crusade, that would be a change, because the theme of that crusade was of reconquest. However, we skipped right over that portion of history, and we're back at a stalemate.
Then what was the point? Other than to justify replacing the entire space marine line?
Move the hands of the clock, or to put another way, leave the hands of the clock still 2 minutes to midnight, but change the status of 'midnight'.
Ultimately the old setting had a real "2 minutes to midnight" feel. The world was on the brink of doomsday. These were the End Times. You didn't know how it would end, but you knew with absolute certainty that humanity was doomed. It was open-ended and left to you, the player, to speculate through your own stories, just as a good game setting should.
And you still can. You can still speculate if humanity will be able to fight off the waves of assailants, if any more Primarchs will return, if they'll just lose the other half of their empire.
And for what it's worth, we didn't exactly know for certainly humanity was doomed any more than they might be able to fight back and turn the tide. That's what makes the setting fun - nearly anyone could "win". The humans might be able to beat back Chaos and xenos threats and complete the Emperor's dreams. Chaos might crush and enslave humanity. The Eldar might be able to fight off Slaanesh's influence and assert dominance. The Tau might slowly and inorexibly envelope everything in the Greater Good, just as much as Tyranids or Necrons might wipe everything out, or Orks fighting until the galaxy is only full of Orks and madness.
Every outcome was possible, and it still is.
Then they advanced the timeline. It changed in some ways but mostly stayed the same. But in the process some things were lost that can never be recovered. The clock tolled midnight and the world didn't end. You can't unring that bell.
Alternatively, you can either look at it as:
- The clock still hasn't rung, and the hands have moved closer to the midnight hour
- The clock rung, and now it's reset back to another midnight
You can do all the things you were always able to. The setting is still there.
Da Boss wrote: I feel that real damage has been done to the setting, but that is my opinion only. I feel it has changed in a way that has reduced it.
That's fair. I personally feel it's the same setting I've always enjoyed. If anything, I quite like the new developments. The Startide Nexus is something the T'au should have had ages ago, as it lets them feasibly interact with campaigns beyond the Damocles Gulf. Similarly, having so much space be actually owned by Chaos now, having defensive Chaos forces against invading Imperial or xenos ones is now far more accessible.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
N.B. I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
Yeah, it's not like we've had Living Saints in people's armies for decades (oh, hi, Celestine!) or the chosen champion of all 4 Chaos Gods (hi, Abaddon).
They've been around for decades - almost like 40k has ALWAYS had some people who are more important on an in-universe level than others, but that's never stopped people from ignoring them and only focusing on their corner of the galaxy.
Also, just to correct on the Cawl thing - he's not really a "normal" Techpriest. He was one of the initial scientists* who created the Space Marines - which, to a significant degree, might actually mean he's more "responsible" for the work that went in to creating the Astartes (fun fact, named after one of the other scientists on the project!) than the Emperor himself. Plus, he was also on familiar speaking terms with the Emperor, who outright told him "yeah, in the future, you'll be doing things that people will be apprehensive of - don't listen to them, you'll be doing the right things". It might not be the same kind of endorsement that Celestine or Guilliman can boast, but he's certainly not "just a normal guy".
*insofar as that he has the complete memory banks of one of those initial scientists, to the point that he functionally is as much that scientist as he is Belisarius Cawl.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/06 21:36:13
Da Boss wrote: I dislike ALL of those characters. I prefered the setting before all these named characters were pushing the setting in any direction, back when all the primarchs were dead, gone or in comas.
Yeah, before there were any important characters! Like Abaddon. Or Calgar. Or Dante. Or Bjorn. Or Ghazghkull. Or the Emperor.
Hasn't 40k ALWAYS had named characters? And haven't a great many of those characters been playable or at least active in universe for quite some time (like, over decades now)?
Besides, who cares if Guilliman's doing something on the other side of the galaxy? It's no different to when Abbadon was off doing his Black Crusades, or Thraka was busy on Armageddon. The galaxy's a big place, and whatever Guilliman's off doing has no effect on my dudes fighting their little war in some distant sector of the galaxy.
Those characters are either gods or are ordained by gods, be it spiritually (Yvraine) or through genetic means (Primarchs and marines). Of course, those characters would be significant in the universe. Cawl is not that, he was just a normal guy at one point. Now he has perfected the work of a literal god (-like being) and is making an indirect impact across the galaxy. The greatest imperial guard characters on the tabletop right now only fought on a few worlds. Macharius did conquer 1000 worlds, but that was with other generals and five marine chapters. Cawl goes against the entire spirit of 40k. The only way it could be salvaged is if it turns out the Sangprimus Portum did most of the work for him and he was also predestined by the Emperor, like some kind of living saint.
Yeah, it's not like we've had Living Saints in people's armies for decades (oh, hi, Celestine!) or the chosen champion of all 4 Chaos Gods (hi, Abaddon).
They've been around for decades - almost like 40k has ALWAYS had some people who are more important on an in-universe level than others, but that's never stopped people from ignoring them and only focusing on their corner of the galaxy.
Also, just to correct on the Cawl thing - he's not really a "normal" Techpriest. He was one of the initial scientists* who created the Space Marines - which, to a significant degree, might actually mean he's more "responsible" for the work that went in to creating the Astartes (fun fact, named after one of the other scientists on the project!) than the Emperor himself. Plus, he was also on familiar speaking terms with the Emperor, who outright told him "yeah, in the future, you'll be doing things that people will be apprehensive of - don't listen to them, you'll be doing the right things". It might not be the same kind of endorsement that Celestine or Guilliman can boast, but he's certainly not "just a normal guy".
*insofar as that he has the complete memory banks of one of those initial scientists, to the point that he functionally is as much that scientist as he is Belisarius Cawl.
Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.
I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to noral marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.
Things having names that make sense in normal english/fake latin but turn out to be someone's name is par for the course in 40k. Arkhan Land being the most infamous example, but few know about him 10,000 years later. Also the Belisarian Furnace does for a marine what Flavius Belisarius did for the ERE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/08 04:15:53
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Many many moons ago, and I was young and you may have been even younger.
It was 2nd Ed, around 1996.
Phoenix Lords. Space Marine Characters, Abadave, Fabulous Bill, Kharn the Betrayer et al burst onto the scene.
No mention of them before. No lead up. Just *boom have a bunch of names characters*.
That’s an important lens for viewing modern additions.
yeah 40k has almost always had an approuch of "BOOM NEW THING!" and THEN fleshed it out.
I'd say special characters rounded out the army, they didnt change the future of the whole IoM.
Primaris marines are to reboot SM sales and extend the shelf life of GWs intellectual property. Cawl is the hackneyed patch for the fluff, so as to qualify squatting your old models.
Named characters were initially designed to be an example of the kind of individual you could create. Calgar was the leader of 1000 men, same as the Chapter master of the Angels of Aremis or the Marines Exemplar.
The idea that the leader of the Ultramarines would have any more influence than the leader of the Crimson Skulls or Void Knights evolved out of the development of Ultramar as some sort of mini empire.
What was supposed to happen was people inferring that if Calgar(or Dante or Grimnar etc) could be the lynchpin on which a campaign swung, so could Chapter Master Otto Insertius of the MineWarriors chapter.
Instead, GWplc's focus on trademarked chapters and characters lead to the degradation of the setting as a sandbox and fostered the expectation that if a conflict was going to be resolved, the Ultras or Dark/Blood/Wolf guys were going to have to resolve it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, it's not like we've had Living Saints in people's armies for decades (oh, hi, Celestine!) or the chosen champion of all 4 Chaos Gods (hi, Abaddon).
They've been around for decades - almost like 40k has ALWAYS had some people who are more important on an in-universe level than others, but that's never stopped people from ignoring them and only focusing on their corner of the galaxy.
Also, just to correct on the Cawl thing - he's not really a "normal" Techpriest. He was one of the initial scientists* who created the Space Marines - which, to a significant degree, might actually mean he's more "responsible" for the work that went in to creating the Astartes (fun fact, named after one of the other scientists on the project!) than the Emperor himself. Plus, he was also on familiar speaking terms with the Emperor, who outright told him "yeah, in the future, you'll be doing things that people will be apprehensive of - don't listen to them, you'll be doing the right things". It might not be the same kind of endorsement that Celestine or Guilliman can boast, but he's certainly not "just a normal guy".
*insofar as that he has the complete memory banks of one of those initial scientists, to the point that he functionally is as much that scientist as he is Belisarius Cawl.
Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.
I don't really understand your point here. 40k has ALWAYS had characters who matter on within their factions and the galaxy as a whole, special or not. Creed matters/mattered. Abaddon matters. Dante matters. Cawl just happens to be a new addition to that list. Why is Cawl an issue?
Or is it that you have a problem with named characters having ever existed in 40k at all, and it's not at all about Cawl specifically?
I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to noral marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.
Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I need to read this book, because it seems like it starts to really flesh out the kind of freaking monster Cawl really is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/08 14:09:30
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I need to read this book, because it seems like it starts to really flesh out the kind of freaking monster Cawl really is.
I heavily recommend it! As with most things post-Gathering Storm, actually reading the new material dispels a lot of the initial shocks to the system.
Da Boss wrote: You are twisting my words. I do not want characters that influence the entire setting. Saving one world, or a group of worlds, stopping a major invasion or leading one is fine. Doing stuff that totally upends the status quo is not. A character like Abaddon that THREATENS to upend the status quo is fine, but him actually doing so is not.
You said above that stories need characters and over arching narratives need leaders. That is true. But Warhammer 40K is a game, not a TV show, a series of novels or a comic book. It is not a serial medium, it does not need a narrative or a story. It is a place to make your own stories and narratives with characters you have invented yourself. The special characters used to be just that - special, mostly examples of characters that the GW design team had made. Over time they have moved centre stage, so that generic characters are now in the backseat and the GW invented characters are driving everything.
I agree, my dudes all the time. I don’t play with special characters at all but over the decades the setting has been set in a time and state that was dependent on characters and was going very stale. They have moved the clock and story forward but haven’t altered the ethos or fabric of the setting. It couldn’t be two minutes to midnight for ever. Fantasy showed that. It died because it became stale and the setting and factions stagnated. New models and new rules is what keeps people coming back and gw in business. The fundamental tenets of the setting are the same. All hope is lost. Humanity is still losing, the eldar are still dying and ORKS are still best. Life in the dark imperium is grimmer than ever and it isn’t rosey on the other side.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.
I need to read this book, because it seems like it starts to really flesh out the kind of freaking monster Cawl really is.
I heavily recommend it! As with most things post-Gathering Storm, actually reading the new material dispels a lot of the initial shocks to the system.
Agreed. to the point where, to be blunt, most of the people complaining about the post GS stuff now make it REAAAALLY obvious they've not done any actual reading.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Tbf, the book came too late imo to change the opinions.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
only for the instant gratification crowd. I, and many others, advocated patience because GW would flesh things out. It would seem that additude has been vindicated.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
godardc wrote: It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
godardc wrote: He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ?
In the far future The Emperor tasked a large British cheap clothing chain started a genetic project to create the perfect models for their product. Hence the name.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
godardc wrote: It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...
How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?
And it was already established that the Emperor was not an expert at everything, and asked for 'assistance' - such as when he had Arkhan Land help him attempt to cure Angron of the Butcher's Nails.
Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.
Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.
Not a retcon - Ezekiel Sedayne was 'director of the sub-dermal interface division' on the Marine Project, and Cawl assimilated his memories.
4,000 
Word Bearers 1,500 
