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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.

Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.

Cawl's original fluff had him helping create the Marines and studying under the Emperor himself. The Horus Heresy novels came out and made that pretty impossible by having Cawl be some young, low ranking nobody during the Heresy itself. The newer Cawl novel tries to reconcile the two by having the Cawl of the Heresy novels mind and soul merge with the actual guy who worked under the Emperor to help create the Marines.

Animus wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.

Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.

Cawl's original fluff had him helping create the Marines and studying under the Emperor himself. The Horus Heresy novels came out and made that pretty impossible by having Cawl be some young, low ranking nobody during the Heresy itself. The newer Cawl novel tries to reconcile the two by having the Cawl of the Heresy novels mind and soul merge with the actual guy who worked under the Emperor to help create the Marines.

It works kinda better that way TBH. Cawl should be a bit.. odd, the answer to the question "who is Cawl" should NOT be, given the age of the character, simple

BrianDavion wrote:

Animus wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.

Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.

Cawl's original fluff had him helping create the Marines and studying under the Emperor himself. The Horus Heresy novels came out and made that pretty impossible by having Cawl be some young, low ranking nobody during the Heresy itself. The newer Cawl novel tries to reconcile the two by having the Cawl of the Heresy novels mind and soul merge with the actual guy who worked under the Emperor to help create the Marines.

It works kinda better that way TBH. Cawl should be a bit.. odd, the answer to the question "who is Cawl" should NOT be, given the age of the character, simple

I had kind of hoped Cawl would be Arkhan Land in disguise...

HoundsofDemos wrote:Wait what is this about Cawl helping the Emperor developed the Black Carapace or anything to do with the original marines. The only thing I've read about him in the HH is that he was a low level tech (albeit clever) on some back water world.

Did GW really just retcon him again to have hand in making real marines? I'm getting tired of them back filling what could have been a great character if they could lay narrative ground work years ahead of time instead of shoehorning in a reason to justify new models all the time.

As already explained, 40k Cawl isn't just "Belisarius Cawl". They're an amalgamation of several different people and personalities, one of the major ones being the second-in-command of the Space Marine project. Essentially, Person A worked on the Space Marine project, Person B subsumed the memories of Person A, thereby becoming person AB in the process.

There isn't any canon conflict - 40k Cawl is simultaneously both 30k Cawl, and the same guy who worked on the Space Marine project (as well as many many more!)

And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.

Nurglitch wrote:
And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.

although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"

BrianDavion wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.

although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"

I haven't read the book you are referencing, but that sounds like awful story telling. Giving a character a vast repository of knowledge that he has forgotten but can remember as plot requires is lazy as feth.
Normally in the end of the second act, the shoe drops when a messenger finally breaks through with the vital information or the ancient tablets are finally translated correctly or the villain reveals a terrible truth they have kept secret all this time (NOOOOOOO)
Cawl can just pull unknowable, plot critical truths out of his rear mounted cortex?

Gosh, what will this old man remember next?

 =Angel= wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.

although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"

I haven't read the book you are referencing, but that sounds like awful story telling. Giving a character a vast repository of knowledge that he has forgotten but can remember as plot requires is lazy as feth.
Normally in the end of the second act, the shoe drops when a messenger finally breaks through with the vital information or the ancient tablets are finally translated correctly or the villain reveals a terrible truth they have kept secret all this time (NOOOOOOO)
Cawl can just pull unknowable, plot critical truths out of his rear mounted cortex?

Gosh, what will this old man remember next?

then you misunderstood what people are saying, he remembers his KNOWLEDGE, but he may not remember the details as to why he knows it etc. So he knows how to make X, but he doesn't remember making X beside his best friend who always sung a real irriating song whenever they where working.

beast_gts wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...

How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?

And it was already established that the Emperor was not an expert at everything, and asked for 'assistance' - such as when he had Arkhan Land help him attempt to cure Angron of the Butcher's Nails.

It was always official the Emperor was a genius bio engineer / biologist / scientist and I never said he did it alone, it's well known he had a laboratory with scientits. But yeah, keep misrepresenting my words
It is like this stupid Molech stuff they released not so long ago about the Emperor stealing power from Chaos, changing absolutely everything to the 40k setting. They didn't even understood it when they did it...

BrianDavion wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
And a few less given that he has a tendency to do a memory dump every 500 years or so. Part of the new novel is him being exposed to things he dumped in external memory thousands of years ago.

although the novel ends with him resolving to revisit those datadumps, curious about "what else he has forgotten" which honestly is a huge plot hook I hope Haley returns to. Hell, I'd looooooooooooooooove to see a 40k anthology titled "the Many lives of Bellisarius Cawl"

I'm sure GW will properly explore and expand upon that. They wouldn't just forget about it.

 godardc wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It's actually even worse if they try to make us accept the Emperor didn't make the Space Marines. What next ? He is not a psyker it was all malcador ? He didn't make the primarchs it was Dr.Primarchs and that's why they have this name ? He isn't a Terran human but a xenos from some kind of Cabal trying to fight Chaos using Mankind ?
GW doing GW gak as usual. Destroying WFB was not enough apparently ...

How is it worse? the idea that the Emperor operating alone in a lab made the space marines is 1: Laughable if you understand how ANY major research project is undertaken. 2: already disproven fairly early. The first Heretic gave us a very small look at the Primarch project, and we where told there were scientests in lab coats etc all over the place. Did you think they where there to scratch the Emperor's back? to turn on the lights when the Emperor showed up?

And it was already established that the Emperor was not an expert at everything, and asked for 'assistance' - such as when he had Arkhan Land help him attempt to cure Angron of the Butcher's Nails.

It was always official the Emperor was a genius bio engineer / biologist / scientist and I never said he did it alone, it's well known he had a laboratory with scientits. But yeah, keep misrepresenting my words
It is like this stupid Molech stuff they released not so long ago about the Emperor stealing power from Chaos, changing absolutely everything to the 40k setting. They didn't even understood it when they did it...

yeah the setting made soooo much more sense back when the Emperor was simply the greatest genius ver who single handedly made all his troops and weapons with no outside help, ohh and was ALSO an insanely powerful psyker with god like powers that he just randomly had!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Eipi10 wrote:[spoiler]
Those "people" are always special/supernatural in some way. The 40k motto is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions" and "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed…" which is why I don't like it when normal humans are given extra special treatment and made to have a visible, well-known impact on the universe. It's why I'm glad most all the characters from the heresy are forgotten in 40k.

I don't really understand your point here. 40k has ALWAYS had characters who matter on within their factions and the galaxy as a whole, special or not. Creed matters/mattered. Abaddon matters. Dante matters. Cawl just happens to be a new addition to that list. Why is Cawl an issue?
Or is it that you have a problem with named characters having ever existed in 40k at all, and it's not at all about Cawl specifically?

I hope they play up the "ordained by the emperor" side of Cawl. What if the Belisarian Furnace was something the Emperor always planned on giving to normal marines, but never had time to make it, so he gave the instructs to Cawl in dreams (or whatever the closest thing to sleep would be for him). That would be a nice twist.

Well, the Emperor (according to Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work) wasn't actually as involved in the Space Marine creation process as we initially seemed to think. He was the project leader/manager, but from what understanding we now have, he didn't actually do all that much beyond fund/organise it. It seems to actually have been led by a scientist named Amar Astarte (who seems to be the origin of the Adeptus Astartes' name!), and her second-in-command is actually inside of Cawl's memory banks. Basically, Cawl being *technically* one of the original creators of the Space Marines since before the Great Crusade and being able to make improvements on their design feels like a far more interesting development than anything else, as well as giving us more information on how one of the most iconic parts of 40k came to be.

I disagree with Creed "mattering" except in the sense that each individual human has a small impact on the galaxy. All he did was slow the 13th Black Crusade down by a few months. Every character with a real (and known) impact on the 40k setting is not human and/or not normal. Eldrad is a super powerful psyker completely devoted to his path, every space marine is a grandson of the Emperor, Ghazgul is da biggest baddest ork. Having Cawl, a normal human, exist alongside these characters is off-putting. It would be like if a grot was also one of 40k's defining characters. Even Goge Vandire is more famous for what marines and custodes did around him than his own actions.
So not, I don't have a problem with named characters, nor do I even have problem with Cawl in the abstract, I just wish he was more "special."

Project heads, like Astartes, do not necessarily know every detail of their project. Being two normal people instead of one normal person is not enough. And I find it hard to believe the Emperor had as little influence as you imply. Most all the nitty-gritty work on the Golden Throne was done by normal humans, but the most significant challenge was accomplished by the Emperor (MoM is the book, I think, or was it a short story). I imagine the marines went the same way. I have The Great Work on my reading list, but do you have a particular passage for me (I don't care about spoilers).

Wait are you calling a ten thousand year old cyborg gestalt conciousness (of at least 3 individuals proably more) one of whom trained directly under the emperor.. a normal person?
....... seriously?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the intreast of education here's a teaser

‘I am one of the fortunate few who worked with the Emperor Himself. There are not many of us left now. Old age took many of us. The war many more. Soon there will be one less. I am dying.’Cawl sipped his drink again. Friedisch peered at his suspiciously. ‘I know you must have an interest in the biological work of the Emperor. You were a student of Diacomes, yes?
Cawl nodded.
‘He was a colleague of mine, a long time ago.’ Sedayne attempted a winning smile. He had cosmetically altered teeth, very straight, and horribly, unnaturally
white. They looked bizarre in his chem-smoothed face, as if he were a plastek recreation of a man. ‘He was gifted, if deluded like all your creed. That was before I worked on the creation of the Legiones Astartes. I was the director of the carapace project.Do you know that the black carapace was an unusual part of the Astartes program?’ Sedayne said. ‘It is the final stage implant, and unlike some of the other organs, that can, if necessary, be grown internally from seed germs, the carapace must be grafted in substantial pieces. Once in place, it encourages the human body to adopt it as its own, and it spreads. It is an engineered, controlled cancer.’ He smiled at his recollections. ‘This is now a matter of fact, and the signature element of Terra’s greatest warriors. No other gen-altered warriors have it. You will know a legionary by his carapace. It nearly was not so. It looked for a long time that we would not perfect it. Try as we might, we could not get the body to grow the carapace. It is far from the materials of the human body, being mostly a plastek compound with mineralised elements of rare sort. Nevertheless, it is crucial to the functioning of the Adeptus Astartes. Without it, their neural plugs are hard to implant, and without the plugs they cannot control their armour. As glorious a creation as the Legiones Astartes are, they are creatures of two parts, the biological, and the mechanical. Not so very different from the qualities your Cult finds so appealing, the union of man and machine, yes?
Sedayne sat back, getting into his stride. He was a man who enjoyed regaling others with his achievements. ‘Much of the black carapace work was undertaken by servants of Amar Astarte, a name which is already ill-favoured, when not so very long ago it was spoken with respect. She was one of the greatest genotects of this era, perhaps any era. Her work outshone that of the gene-witches of the Selenar... ‘No one will remember her, in a few hundred years. The favour of the powerful means so much, and she no longer has it. I didn’t rate her myself. The work I received was substandard. It didn’t work, so I fixed it. I made the carapace possible. You could say that the success of the Emperor’s own Legions was only possible because of what I did.’ Sedayne sipped his wine with a triumphant expression."

Eipi10 wrote:I disagree with Creed "mattering" except in the sense that each individual human has a small impact on the galaxy. All he did was slow the 13th Black Crusade down by a few months. Every character with a real (and known) impact on the 40k setting is not human and/or not normal. Eldrad is a super powerful psyker completely devoted to his path, every space marine is a grandson of the Emperor, Ghazgul is da biggest baddest ork. Having Cawl, a normal human, exist alongside these characters is off-putting. It would be like if a grot was also one of 40k's defining characters. Even Goge Vandire is more famous for what marines and custodes did around him than his own actions.
So not, I don't have a problem with named characters, nor do I even have problem with Cawl in the abstract, I just wish he was more "special."

How is "personally worked on the Space Marine project, met Horus, directly conversed with the Emperor, has been around since before the Imperium began, and is a cybernetically enhanced monstrosity of a being" not special enough? He's more unique than practically any named Space Marine Chapter Master or Captain (maybe barring Bjorn or Dante) - how is he "a normal human"?

Like, seriously? What makes him "a normal human"?

Project heads, like Astartes, do not necessarily know every detail of their project. Being two normal people instead of one normal person is not enough. And I find it hard to believe the Emperor had as little influence as you imply.

Read the book, I guess.

Most all the nitty-gritty work on the Golden Throne was done by normal humans, but the most significant challenge was accomplished by the Emperor (MoM is the book, I think, or was it a short story). I imagine the marines went the same way. I have The Great Work on my reading list, but do you have a particular passage for me (I don't care about spoilers).

As you have asked, so shall BrianDavion deliver.

The Emperor being fairly hands-off with the Astartes project isn't new fluff or a retcon. I suggest people try to get hold of a copy of WD98 from back in 1988. It contains Rick Priestley's original account of how space marines are made. In it, the Emperor visits the Astartes project lab, run by a Dr Outek, because they've just started implanting the very first Black Carapace. The Emperor learns for the first time (because he queries it) that the scientists call the artificial organs 'zygotes'. And he's never seen a 'completed' space marine before. It is very clear that the Emperor has no real idea of the details of the project at this point. All he has done is provide the resources and guide the overall direction of the research. The nineteen implants were all created by the scientists that worked for the Emperor, not the Emperor himself. This is explicitly stated, and it's also implied in some of the names, such as Lyman's Ear and Betcher's Gland. The idea that the Emperor did it all himself was always meant to be later propaganda / religious dogma, not the 'reality'.

 Duskweaver wrote:
This is explicitly stated, and it's also implied in some of the names, such as Lyman's Ear and Betcher's Gland.

It's funny, I never thought about the people the implants must've been named for.

"Let's make sure they're super strong!"

"Yeah!"

Larraman: "And make sure they have fast healing!"

"Yeah!"

Lyman: "And have heightened senses!"

"Yeah!"

Betcher: "And can spit acid!"

"..."

"Okay Betcher...you go do that..."

BrianDavion wrote:Wait are you calling a ten thousand year old cyborg gestalt conciousness (of at least 3 individuals proably more) one of whom trained directly under the emperor.. a normal person?
....... seriously?

Sgt_Smudge wrote: How is "personally worked on the Space Marine project, met Horus, directly conversed with the Emperor, has been around since before the Imperium began, and is a cybernetically enhanced monstrosity of a being" not special enough? He's more unique than practically any named Space Marine Chapter Master or Captain (maybe barring Bjorn or Dante) - how is he "a normal human"?

Like, seriously? What makes him "a normal human"?

I consider a special person to be one who is influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k; everyone else is normal. Until a character's consciousness is composed of enough individuals to generate their own god, I would not consider that character to be worthy of being a special character with an obvious impact on the galaxy. As stated previously, Marines are grandsons of the Emperor, and thus are capable of achieving (though not always succeeding in achieving) a kind of impact that mortals are not. Part of his power is infused within them, same with the Custodes, Primarchs, and Thunder Warriors. Cawl, as far as we know, is not infused with that kind of supernatural power. If he were, I would have no objection.

And as far as the quote goes, frankly it puts these other scientists into the same camp as Cawl. Geneforged warriors were commonplace on Terra, most every powerful warlord had them. The Emperor was able to conquer the whole planet because his warriors were unlike anything before, something no one had done for 5000 years. What made his warriors so special? I refuse to believe that it's because he got "the best" scientists in that generation, or made sure to give them the proper funding and inspiration (unless it was he who implanted the knowledge to fix the carapace in Sedayne). I'm sure some previous techno-barbarian would have tried something similar in all those years. The only explanation for their success where so many others had failed is that there was some supernatural power infused in the Emperor's warriors that made than better than everyone else; anything else is something that some other person could have done.

Duskweaver wrote:The Emperor being fairly hands-off with the Astartes project isn't new fluff or a retcon. I suggest people try to get hold of a copy of WD98 from back in 1988. It contains Rick Priestley's original account of how space marines are made. In it, the Emperor visits the Astartes project lab, run by a Dr Outek, because they've just started implanting the very first Black Carapace. The Emperor learns for the first time (because he queries it) that the scientists call the artificial organs 'zygotes'. And he's never seen a 'completed' space marine before. It is very clear that the Emperor has no real idea of the details of the project at this point. All he has done is provide the resources and guide the overall direction of the research. The nineteen implants were all created by the scientists that worked for the Emperor, not the Emperor himself. This is explicitly stated, and it's also implied in some of the names, such as Lyman's Ear and Betcher's Gland. The idea that the Emperor did it all himself was always meant to be later propaganda / religious dogma, not the 'reality'.

A fascinating story, you can still buy the WD for $10 +shipping on amazon, but I looked at a pdf.
That was back before 40k became what it is today; there is no mention of legions, but rather marines were originally created as chapters. Back on topic, if you believe what ADB says about the Emperor then he would just be asking that question to placate the scientist's ego. It is hard to judge any supposed cluelessness on his part. This is why I suspect the Emperor played a heavier hand in the creation of marines than what the state story would imply. It is more probable that he, a near-omniscient being, psychically implanted solutions and insights into the minds of the scientists developing on his warriors.

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:Wait are you calling a ten thousand year old cyborg gestalt conciousness (of at least 3 individuals proably more) one of whom trained directly under the emperor.. a normal person?
....... seriously?

I consider a special person to be one who is influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k; everyone else is normal.

So Cawl, who is influenced by the Emperor (has literally spoken to him) and is blessed with the Omnissiah's power (as are nearly all high-ranking Techpriests) should be considered amongst them, no?

Until a character's consciousness is composed of enough individuals to generate their own god, I would not consider that character to be worthy of being a special character with an obvious impact on the galaxy. As stated previously, Marines are grandsons of the Emperor, and thus are capable of achieving (though not always succeeding in achieving) a kind of impact that mortals are not. Part of his power is infused within them, same with the Custodes, Primarchs, and Thunder Warriors. Cawl, as far as we know, is not infused with that kind of supernatural power. If he were, I would have no objection.

And then we've also had a vast myriad of cases where Techpriests are also just as capable of achieving those same impacts. Like, seriously, I don't see how you came to this conclusion without just ignoring vast swathes the background (which, if you did, that's fine, just so I know what your logic process is).

How about T'au - Aun'va isn't blessed by any gods. Eldar? Eldrad isn't infused with the power of any gods, he's just a powerful guy. Lelith Hesperax?

This is, of course, ignoring that Cawl *is* supported by the power/blessing of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.

And as far as the quote goes, frankly it puts these other scientists into the same camp as Cawl. Geneforged warriors were commonplace on Terra, most every powerful warlord had them. The Emperor was able to conquer the whole planet because his warriors were unlike anything before, something no one had done for 5000 years. What made his warriors so special? I refuse to believe that it's because he got "the best" scientists in that generation, or made sure to give them the proper funding and inspiration (unless it was he who implanted the knowledge to fix the carapace in Sedayne). I'm sure some previous techno-barbarian would have tried something similar in all those years. The only explanation for their success where so many others had failed is that there was some supernatural power infused in the Emperor's warriors that made than better than everyone else; anything else is something that some other person could have done.

And none of those geneforged warriors that the other Warlords made were as powerful as the creations the Emperor commissioned. Like, sorry if that bursts your bubble, but he didn't make them all. I still reckon he made the the Custodes and was the instrumental part of the Primarchs, but the regular Space Marines? There really isn't any source to suggest he was more hands-on that what Astarte and Sedayne did - and I don't see how it's such a leap to suggest that they were just simply the best scientists at the time, so could achieve things the other Warlords couldn't. Was Einstein guided by divine power? Because anyone else could have had the discoveries he did. How doesn't the same apply here?

It is more probable that he, a near-omniscient being, psychically implanted solutions and insights into the minds of the scientists developing on his warriors.

So, even if I disagree with this - by your own logic, doesn't this make Cawl "special"? If he was being guided by "psychically implanted solutions and insights", that means he was "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So Cawl, who is influenced by the Emperor (has literally spoken to him) and is blessed with the Omnissiah's power (as are nearly all high-ranking Techpriests) should be considered amongst them, no?

If the emperor gave him specific instructions, even (or especially) psychically, then yes, he is among them. But saying most tech priests are blessed with the Omnissiah's power is like saying most ministorum priests are blessed by the Emperor. I don't think you can say empowerment by a god is proportional to worship, except in a limited sense.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And then we've also had a vast myriad of cases where Techpriests are also just as capable of achieving those same impacts. Like, seriously, I don't see how you came to this conclusion without just ignoring vast swathes the background (which, if you did, that's fine, just so I know what your logic process is).

How about T'au - Aun'va isn't blessed by any gods. Eldar? Eldrad isn't infused with the power of any gods, he's just a powerful guy. Lelith Hesperax?

This is, of course, ignoring that Cawl *is* supported by the power/blessing of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.

I'm not talking about physical power. As I said earlier:

I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.

N.B. that even though DE ability to actively manifest psychic powers, like a seer, has atrophied, there is no reason to assume their background powers are reduced in any way, i.e. achievement through obsession.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And none of those geneforged warriors that the other Warlords made were as powerful as the creations the Emperor commissioned. Like, sorry if that bursts your bubble, but he didn't make them all. I still reckon he made the the Custodes and was the instrumental part of the Primarchs, but the regular Space Marines? There really isn't any source to suggest he was more hands-on that what Astarte and Sedayne did - and I don't see how it's such a leap to suggest that they were just simply the best scientists at the time, so could achieve things the other Warlords couldn't. Was Einstein guided by divine power? Because anyone else could have had the discoveries he did. How doesn't the same apply here?

Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all. What I'm saying is that for thousands of years warlords on Terra had been recruiting the best scientists to create the best genetically engineered warriors. None of the scientists succeeded in creating warriors strong enough to conquer Terra until Astarte et al. Why? Every generation we see amazing scientists, what made Astarte et al. so overwhelmingly good that they could solve what no team had solved for thousands of years when given, we can assume, more or less the same inputs? I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.

So, even if I disagree with this - by your own logic, doesn't this make Cawl "special"? If he was being guided by "psychically implanted solutions and insights", that means he was "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".

Yes, that is what I hope. So far, there has been no evidence of this. I don't know if The Great Work or later books will expand on this.

Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all.

no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"

What I'm saying is that for thousands of years warlords on Terra had been recruiting the best scientists to create the best genetically engineered warriors. None of the scientists succeeded in creating warriors strong enough to conquer Terra until Astarte et al. Why?

you're operating from an inaccurate basis of assumption. The Astartes where NOT the tool the Emperor used to Conquer Terra. that would be the thunder warriors and custodes. I imagine the Emperor also was a signfcigent advantage himself due to his precong abilities etc.

BrianDavion wrote:
no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"

He was not the only one making discoveries.

BrianDavion wrote:
you're operating from an inaccurate basis of assumption. The Astartes where NOT the tool the Emperor used to Conquer Terra. that would be the thunder warriors and custodes. I imagine the Emperor also was a signfcigent advantage himself due to his precong abilities etc.

Many battles were fought with marines, not thunder warriors. And surely a similar team was assembled to make thunder warriors.

If the Emperor's precog abilities and guidance were what caused his warriors to succeed in battle, why did the not suffer a serious decrease in combat effectiveness when he (and his primarchs) stopped leading them?

By time the Astartes where deployed, the conquest of Terra was pretty much a "done deal"

Eipi10 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So Cawl, who is influenced by the Emperor (has literally spoken to him) and is blessed with the Omnissiah's power (as are nearly all high-ranking Techpriests) should be considered amongst them, no?

If the emperor gave him specific instructions, even (or especially) psychically, then yes, he is among them. But saying most tech priests are blessed with the Omnissiah's power is like saying most ministorum priests are blessed by the Emperor. I don't think you can say empowerment by a god is proportional to worship, except in a limited sense.

But priests of both the Emperor AND the Omnissiah can actually manifest divine power from their worship. Of course, I'm not implying that every worshipper, not even every priest, is "special", but to argue that the most powerful of their number and ones who literally have divine favour don't count because "it's just faith" is shortsighted in a setting where faith does grant divine power.

Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And then we've also had a vast myriad of cases where Techpriests are also just as capable of achieving those same impacts. Like, seriously, I don't see how you came to this conclusion without just ignoring vast swathes the background (which, if you did, that's fine, just so I know what your logic process is).

How about T'au - Aun'va isn't blessed by any gods. Eldar? Eldrad isn't infused with the power of any gods, he's just a powerful guy. Lelith Hesperax?

This is, of course, ignoring that Cawl *is* supported by the power/blessing of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.

I'm not talking about physical power. As I said earlier:

I do like most all of the special characters in 40k. For t'au characters, the galaxy is very small so normal citizens might have an impact on their empire. I'm not even bothered by Pheonix Lords, eldar's psychic influence is proportional to how far they have gone down a certain path, and Pheonix Lords have gone all the way. Vect does rub me the wrong way, I'd prefer it if his position was a bit more precarious; as in he is not some undisputed ruler, but just happens to be the most powerful Archon for 5000 years.

N.B. that even though DE ability to actively manifest psychic powers, like a seer, has atrophied, there is no reason to assume their background powers are reduced in any way, i.e. achievement through obsession.

That doesn't explain Eldrad. He's not favoured by some divine power. And your T'au reason doesn't really fit with your comment of "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".

Basically, are Eldrad or the T'au characters "special"? Because if they are, why isn't Cawl?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And none of those geneforged warriors that the other Warlords made were as powerful as the creations the Emperor commissioned. Like, sorry if that bursts your bubble, but he didn't make them all. I still reckon he made the the Custodes and was the instrumental part of the Primarchs, but the regular Space Marines? There really isn't any source to suggest he was more hands-on that what Astarte and Sedayne did - and I don't see how it's such a leap to suggest that they were just simply the best scientists at the time, so could achieve things the other Warlords couldn't. Was Einstein guided by divine power? Because anyone else could have had the discoveries he did. How doesn't the same apply here?

Is Einstein so important that all other physicists of his time were rendered obsolete? Not at all.

Of course Einstein didn't make the others obsolete, but he's the one who basically completely revolutionised it. Sure, he wasn't the only one, but there's a reason that it's nearly exclusively attributed to him. How about Galileo? Archimedes? Newton?

My point is that your argument of "it's impossible to make scientific progress alone without divine power!" simply doesn't hold up at all.

What I'm saying is that for thousands of years warlords on Terra had been recruiting the best scientists to create the best genetically engineered warriors. None of the scientists succeeded in creating warriors strong enough to conquer Terra until Astarte et al. Why? Every generation we see amazing scientists, what made Astarte et al. so overwhelmingly good that they could solve what no team had solved for thousands of years when given, we can assume, more or less the same inputs?

By that same logic, "No scientists had succeeded in identifying gravity as a force even though there were LOADS of scientists for hundred if not thousands of years! Every generation we see talented scientists so how could Newton could solve what no other scientist had?"

It's called being more skilled, more talented, or just simply lucky. I don't see how it's so hard to believe that the Emperor carefully curated and located the best talent for his project, and his team just happened to be smarter/luckier/more skilled than the geneticists of all the other (mostly insane) warlords! It would be like claiming "everyone was working on space rockets, so there's no reason the US should have gotten to the moon first with the same inputs, unless they had divine intervention!"

Hell, it's probably the "same inputs" part that's the misconception here - the Emperor more than likely was far better supplied, more stable, wiser, and dedicated more resources to his science teams than other warlords could afford to do!

I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.

Even more than the Emperor just doing it all single handed?

It makes far more sense that the Emperor was smarter when it came to picking out his team and ensured they had all the supplies they needed to foster their superior talents.

So, even if I disagree with this - by your own logic, doesn't this make Cawl "special"? If he was being guided by "psychically implanted solutions and insights", that means he was "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".

Yes, that is what I hope. So far, there has been no evidence of this. I don't know if The Great Work or later books will expand on this.

Maybe you should read the Great Work then, because Cawl certainly isn't just "a random guy" in that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
no he only completely revolutionized a theory of study that required any other scientists to adapt to his discovery or be effectively "obselete"

He was not the only one making discoveries.

But he was the one to discover that particular one.

In the 40k analogy, it would be like "just because Astarte and the other scientists discovered how to make Space Marines, it doesn't mean that other sciences (like how to make boltguns or power armour) were made irrelevant".
Astarte (and her team) was behind the Space Marine project, which was superior to everyone else's super soldier projects, but there were still other scientists working on things like power armour and other things.

BrianDavion wrote:
you're operating from an inaccurate basis of assumption. The Astartes where NOT the tool the Emperor used to Conquer Terra. that would be the thunder warriors and custodes. I imagine the Emperor also was a signfcigent advantage himself due to his precong abilities etc.

Many battles were fought with marines, not thunder warriors. And surely a similar team was assembled to make thunder warriors.

Not really. Only the final battles (and I mean, REALLY late in the conquest of Terra) were fought with Astartes. Thunder Warriors and Custodes made up most of his Terran conquest forces.

Only towards the end were Legions like the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, White Scars and Salamanders even deployed. Hell, the final battle of the Unification of Terra was fought by Thunder Warriors (and also where they were massacred at Ararat).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But priests of both the Emperor AND the Omnissiah can actually manifest divine power from their worship. Of course, I'm not implying that every worshipper, not even every priest, is "special", but to argue that the most powerful of their number and ones who literally have divine favour don't count because "it's just faith" is shortsighted in a setting where faith does grant divine power.

Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?

It's the distinction between being empowered by their own faith (which is not sufficient to change the galaxy) or if they are actually empowered by the Emperor. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I am saying I have no proof that's what has happened to Cawl.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
That doesn't explain Eldrad. He's not favoured by some divine power. And your T'au reason doesn't really fit with your comment of "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".

Basically, are Eldrad or the T'au characters "special"? Because if they are, why isn't Cawl?

The Eldar were created by the old ones, no? They created the Eldar to obsess over certain things (paths), becoming something beyond experts at them. Eldar who have gone so far down a path that they can no longer leave it are tapping into the power the old ones gave them. Eldrad is one of those.

For T'au characters: the T'au as a race haven't even made a galactic scale impact. None of their characters can match the influence of a Primarch.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of course Einstein didn't make the others obsolete, but he's the one who basically completely revolutionised it. Sure, he wasn't the only one, but there's a reason that it's nearly exclusively attributed to him. How about Galileo? Archimedes? Newton?

My point is that your argument of "it's impossible to make scientific progress alone without divine power!" simply doesn't hold up at all.

By that same logic, "No scientists had succeeded in identifying gravity as a force even though there were LOADS of scientists for hundred if not thousands of years! Every generation we see talented scientists so how could Newton could solve what no other scientist had?"

It's called being more skilled, more talented, or just simply lucky. I don't see how it's so hard to believe that the Emperor carefully curated and located the best talent for his project, and his team just happened to be smarter/luckier/more skilled than the geneticists of all the other (mostly insane) warlords! It would be like claiming "everyone was working on space rockets, so there's no reason the US should have gotten to the moon first with the same inputs, unless they had divine intervention!"

Hell, it's probably the "same inputs" part that's the misconception here - the Emperor more than likely was far better supplied, more stable, wiser, and dedicated more resources to his science teams than other warlords could afford to do!

I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.

Even more than the Emperor just doing it all single handed?

It makes far more sense that the Emperor was smarter when it came to picking out his team and ensured they had all the supplies they needed to foster their superior talents.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But he was the one to discover that particular one.

In the 40k analogy, it would be like "just because Astarte and the other scientists discovered how to make Space Marines, it doesn't mean that other sciences (like how to make boltguns or power armour) were made irrelevant".
Astarte (and her team) was behind the Space Marine project, which was superior to everyone else's super soldier projects, but there were still other scientists working on things like power armour and other things.

"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
-Issac Newton

"The Emperor checked the ornate bolter at His hip. One of the very first boltguns; a progenitor for its kind – not a relic rediscovered from the Dark Age of Technology but an invention of the Emperor’s own design." (MoM)

Did you just say discoveries in physics made discoveries in biology obsolete? Astartes and her team clearly did something so outside of what had been done before that all other scientists also working on genetically engineered warriors were completely forgotten. The space race is a great example. Soyuz rockets are the most used rockets in the world, they're how the ISS stays stocked (or at least they were for a long time). I'm not saying the soviets won, but I am saying American (German) scientists had much greater access to resources and funding (I assume they did, the US economy was an order of magnitude larger than the Soviets; the Emperor did not have such luxuries, he started his conquests from nothing) and won the space race, but we still see Soviet rockets being used all the time. The losing side's contributions didn't disappear after the space race, but they did disappear after the Unification Wars. And even then, the Soviets got pretty close to being able to land on the moon, but no other warlord came close to conquering Terra.

Supernatural intervention is required to explain evens out of the ordinary, and the fact that the other scientists serving other warlords are not even a footnote in 40k is certainly out of the ordinary. It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational. It's clear the technobarbarians would also be searching for scientists to run their gene labs. The only explanation is that the emperor assisted his scientists in some way. The simplest version of that explanation is that the Emperor reached some balance between using his powers to find good scientists (which I don't deny was done to some capacity) and then fill in their missing information with his own divine knowledge such that what they could do was far beyond what anyone else could achieve. The idea that the emperor only used his powers to locate all the best scientists, transport them to his lair, and supply them with what they needed is plausible but highly roundabout (the Custodes of the Aquilon Shield do something like that). It would require a situation where the Emperor's scientists were naturally drastically better than the research teams of other warlords and where doing that would have been easier than giving whatever scientists he could get the knowledge they needed to solve the problems they faced.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Maybe you should read the Great Work then, because Cawl certainly isn't just "a random guy" in that.

Can you explain?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really. Only the final battles (and I mean, REALLY late in the conquest of Terra) were fought with Astartes. Thunder Warriors and Custodes made up most of his Terran conquest forces.

Only towards the end were Legions like the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, White Scars and Salamanders even deployed. Hell, the final battle of the Unification of Terra was fought by Thunder Warriors (and also where they were massacred at Ararat).

The Astartes project was done during the age of strife, under the same conditions as all the other warlords and their super soldier projects.

It's the distinction between being empowered by their own faith (which is not sufficient to change the galaxy) or if they are actually empowered by the Emperor. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I am saying I have no proof that's what has happened to Cawl.

he was a direct STUDENT of the emperor's he learned his craft at the Emperor's feet. BTW the idea that you literally need divine intervention to change the galaxy is rediculas.

The Eldar were created by the old ones, no? They created the Eldar to obsess over certain things (paths), becoming something beyond experts at them. Eldar who have gone so far down a path that they can no longer leave it are tapping into the power the old ones gave them. Eldrad is one of those.

err no, I'm no expertt on eldar but as I understand it the paths are more a safeguard agaisnt the decadance of the old ways that destroyed the Aeldari empire of old.

Did you just say discoveries in physics made discoveries in biology obsolete? Astartes and her team clearly did something so outside of what had been done before that all other scientists also working on genetically engineered warriors were completely forgotten

no they weren't. other geneticly engineered warriors where forgotten ebcause they lost and thus the knowledge was ancient history. however we know for a fact that Luna was home to genetic engineers where where as good if not better.

Eipi10 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But priests of both the Emperor AND the Omnissiah can actually manifest divine power from their worship. Of course, I'm not implying that every worshipper, not even every priest, is "special", but to argue that the most powerful of their number and ones who literally have divine favour don't count because "it's just faith" is shortsighted in a setting where faith does grant divine power.

Or are we supposed to say that Sisters of Battle aren't blessed by the Emperor? If they're not, how else are they supernaturally protected?

It's the distinction between being empowered by their own faith (which is not sufficient to change the galaxy) or if they are actually empowered by the Emperor. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I am saying I have no proof that's what has happened to Cawl.

And what's your source that faith alone isn't enough to change the galaxy? Like, have you actually got any proof for that?

I think I really do have a problem with the idea that "the only people that matter are those who are "special" by divine providence", because that's explicitly not true. It's a nice headcanon, I guess, but beyond that, it's just not accurate in 40k canon. The whole idea of "if you're not blessed by a higher power, then you can't change the galaxy" is disproven on more places than I can count (Tyranids aren't blessed by a god, the Tau aren't blessed by gods, none of the Necron characters are favoured by the C'Tan*, and how about humans who have influenced things far beyond their means, like Yarrick, Creed, Macharius, or Kryptman). Like, their influence has changed the galaxy more than any random Space Marine has simply by being inducted into a Chapter.

And no, Cawl literally spoke to the Emperor, and was told that Cawl would do something that people would say "betrayed the Emperor", and was explicitly told by him that he should do it anyways. Is that not literally being guided by the Emperor? Not to mention one of Cawl's personalities directly working with the Emperor himself.

*if you want to argue that "the C'Tan empowered the Necrons, by that same virtue, a C'Tan empowers the Mechanicus, and it was either the C'Tan or Old Ones who apparently seeded human life, so by that virtue, all humans are "special".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
That doesn't explain Eldrad. He's not favoured by some divine power. And your T'au reason doesn't really fit with your comment of "influenced and empowered by those supernatural, god-like beings of 40k".

Basically, are Eldrad or the T'au characters "special"? Because if they are, why isn't Cawl?

The Eldar were created by the old ones, no? They created the Eldar to obsess over certain things (paths), becoming something beyond experts at them. Eldar who have gone so far down a path that they can no longer leave it are tapping into the power the old ones gave them. Eldrad is one of those.

Weren't humans also "created by the Old Ones (or C'Tan)"?

Being an expert in something isn't divine blessing. Eldrad is just a talented and skilled Farseer, he's not blessed by a divine power.

For T'au characters: the T'au as a race haven't even made a galactic scale impact. None of their characters can match the influence of a Primarch.

There's very few to can match the influence of a Primarch, but there's humans who have. Cawl, Macharius, Creed, Yarrick - they're all humans who have done more than some Primarchs, let alone Space Marines.

Besides, I thought you claimed that this wasn't about power, it was about influence or potential for greatness - by your metric, the T'au should have no characters because they're not blessed by a divine power.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of course Einstein didn't make the others obsolete, but he's the one who basically completely revolutionised it. Sure, he wasn't the only one, but there's a reason that it's nearly exclusively attributed to him. How about Galileo? Archimedes? Newton?

My point is that your argument of "it's impossible to make scientific progress alone without divine power!" simply doesn't hold up at all.

By that same logic, "No scientists had succeeded in identifying gravity as a force even though there were LOADS of scientists for hundred if not thousands of years! Every generation we see talented scientists so how could Newton could solve what no other scientist had?"

It's called being more skilled, more talented, or just simply lucky. I don't see how it's so hard to believe that the Emperor carefully curated and located the best talent for his project, and his team just happened to be smarter/luckier/more skilled than the geneticists of all the other (mostly insane) warlords! It would be like claiming "everyone was working on space rockets, so there's no reason the US should have gotten to the moon first with the same inputs, unless they had divine intervention!"

Hell, it's probably the "same inputs" part that's the misconception here - the Emperor more than likely was far better supplied, more stable, wiser, and dedicated more resources to his science teams than other warlords could afford to do!

I refuse to believe that they are just that good, it would make them the Mary Suest of Mary Sues, responsible for all of 40k.

Even more than the Emperor just doing it all single handed?

It makes far more sense that the Emperor was smarter when it came to picking out his team and ensured they had all the supplies they needed to foster their superior talents.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But he was the one to discover that particular one.

In the 40k analogy, it would be like "just because Astarte and the other scientists discovered how to make Space Marines, it doesn't mean that other sciences (like how to make boltguns or power armour) were made irrelevant".
Astarte (and her team) was behind the Space Marine project, which was superior to everyone else's super soldier projects, but there were still other scientists working on things like power armour and other things.

"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
-Issac Newton

Just to clarify - you are genuinely suggesting that Newton had no personal brilliance or ability and was solely able to do what he did by divine power?

Because that's a real world argument right there which I'm very interested to hear you justify.

"The Emperor checked the ornate bolter at His hip. One of the very first boltguns; a progenitor for its kind – not a relic rediscovered from the Dark Age of Technology but an invention of the Emperor’s own design." (MoM)

Great, the Emperor's a good weaponsmith. How does that make him a good biologist?

Are you claiming that a gun manufacturer nowadays could perform brain surgery?

Did you just say discoveries in physics made discoveries in biology obsolete?

No, that's what I'm saying ISN'T the case. Just because Astarte made breakthrough discoveries in biology doesn't mean that the scientific minds of other people was obsolete.

Your comments were reading along the lines of "but Einstein wasn't the only scientist!" - which is true, but the other scientists didn't do what he did, which is my point. So in 40k (or rather, pre-30k), Astarte and her team were the ones to make the breakthrough on the Space Marine design.

Why did they need divine power to do that?

Astartes and her team clearly did something so outside of what had been done before that all other scientists also working on genetically engineered warriors were completely forgotten. The space race is a great example. Soyuz rockets are the most used rockets in the world, they're how the ISS stays stocked (or at least they were for a long time). I'm not saying the soviets won, but I am saying American (German) scientists had much greater access to resources and funding (I assume they did, the US economy was an order of magnitude larger than the Soviets; the Emperor did not have such luxuries, he started his conquests from nothing) and won the space race, but we still see Soviet rockets being used all the time. The losing side's contributions didn't disappear after the space race, but they did disappear after the Unification Wars. And even then, the Soviets got pretty close to being able to land on the moon, but no other warlord came close to conquering Terra.

Because the Emperor had:
Thunder Warriors
Custodes
Bolters
Power Armour
A superior intelligence (note that many of the warlords are described as mad, which could be truth, or just historical bias)
Psychic powers
Better military strategy
Simple luck

That's my point - much like the US had better funding and access to better scientists (you said it yourself!), the Emperor was able to create better super soldiers, because his military was superior (a military consisting of Thunder Warriors and Custodes) and had better scientists than the other warlords.

The Astartes weren't the instrument by which the Emperor conquered Terra. The Thunder Warriors and Custodes were. And regarding your "losing side's contributions didn't disappear" - yeah, that's because they actually had something worthwhile keeping. The pre-Astartes superhumans were not worth keeping any more than the Emperor's own pre-Astartes (Thunder Warriors) were. It's simple pragmatism. Keep what works, discard the rest - the Emperor didn't need the Astartes to conquer Terra, but he did need them to conquer the stars. But okay, if the Emperor was so brilliant, and it totally wasn't about him having better access to resources - why didn't he create the Space Marines first, instead of the Thunder Warriors?

Supernatural intervention is required to explain evens out of the ordinary, and the fact that the other scientists serving other warlords are not even a footnote in 40k is certainly out of the ordinary.

Why? They were inferior scientists who didn't create anything as powerful as the Astartes. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.

In real life do we hear about the scientists thousands of years ago who accomplished nothing? No, because they accomplished nothing!

It was not the emperor's style to simply purge the scientific contributions of his enemies (not yet, at least). It is reasonable to assume their unique discoveries didn't exist, never happened. I don't think the insanity explanation is fair, it's like calling North Korea or Stalin "insane." Those regimes were very rational; evil, but rational.

I think we have very different idea of what rationality is.

It's clear the technobarbarians would also be searching for scientists to run their gene labs. The only explanation is that the emperor assisted his scientists in some way.

Or, hear me out - the Emperor's scientists were just more talented! Why is that so hard to consider? What's so impossible about simple human skill, talent and luck?

In the real world, are you seriously suggesting that the only way you can succeed over someone else is by divine aid?

The simplest version of that explanation is that the Emperor reached some balance between using his powers to find good scientists (which I don't deny was done to some capacity) and then fill in their missing information with his own divine knowledge such that what they could do was far beyond what anyone else could achieve.

Or they were just smarter, better supplied, and luckier?

The idea that the emperor only used his powers to locate all the best scientists, transport them to his lair, and supply them with what they needed is plausible but highly roundabout (the Custodes of the Aquilon Shield do something like that).

Why is that roundabout? Who said he even needed to use his divine power to find the best scientists! It's done in the real world without needing psychic powers! Hell, the Emperor may well have been recruiting scientists from conquered warlords, or simply sending emissaries to every compliant settlement offering security and glory for the scientifically gifted!

It would require a situation where the Emperor's scientists were naturally drastically better than the research teams of other warlords and where doing that would have been easier than giving whatever scientists he could get the knowledge they needed to solve the problems they faced.

You keep assuming that the Emperor HAD that knowledge in the first place. He was able to create the Thunder Warriors and Custodes, yes, but if he could only create them, why didn't he just create the Astartes first? Because he needed scientists who were more capable in biology than he was!

I genuinely don't understand how you completely reject the idea that his scientists were simply *better*.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Maybe you should read the Great Work then, because Cawl certainly isn't just "a random guy" in that.

Can you explain?

We already have. Cawl is guided by the Emperor.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really. Only the final battles (and I mean, REALLY late in the conquest of Terra) were fought with Astartes. Thunder Warriors and Custodes made up most of his Terran conquest forces.

Only towards the end were Legions like the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, White Scars and Salamanders even deployed. Hell, the final battle of the Unification of Terra was fought by Thunder Warriors (and also where they were massacred at Ararat).

The Astartes project was done during the age of strife, under the same conditions as all the other warlords and their super soldier projects.

I'm not denying that, but they were not the main army used to conquer Terra. The Primarchs were also developed at that time, but they weren't used to conquer Terra either.

The Emperor's first and main unification army were the Thunder Warriors and Custodes. When his power base had been solidified, he commissioned the top scientists of the time to build him better soldiers - hence, the Astartes.

Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.

pm713 wrote:
Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.

Huh. Could've sworn I'd seen some fluff that argued that humans were seeded by either the Old Ones or C'Tan, much like how people say the Orks and Tau were. Still, if that's not true, fair enough, I wasn't particularly attached to that fluff anyways.

Also, agreed on that the Eldar weren't designed to obsess, that wasn't my argument.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.

Huh. Could've sworn I'd seen some fluff that argued that humans were seeded by either the Old Ones or C'Tan, much like how people say the Orks and Tau were. Still, if that's not true, fair enough, I wasn't particularly attached to that fluff anyways.

Also, agreed on that the Eldar weren't designed to obsess, that wasn't my argument.

How are Tau going to be made by the Old Ones? They didn't even exist in the same set of millenia...

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Humans weren't made by Old Ones and Eldar weren't designed to obsess. I'm not sure why you'd think they were.

Huh. Could've sworn I'd seen some fluff that argued that humans were seeded by either the Old Ones or C'Tan, much like how people say the Orks and Tau were. Still, if that's not true, fair enough, I wasn't particularly attached to that fluff anyways.

Also, agreed on that the Eldar weren't designed to obsess, that wasn't my argument.

How are Tau going to be made by the Old Ones? They didn't even exist in the same set of millenia...

Pretty sure there have been people claiming that there was some influence of theirs, such as a hidden Old One, or a something similar. It's the same as how there's people who claim that the Tyranids were created by them or a C'Tan. It's not that I personally hold faith in those theories, but that there have been people who have claimed them.