I eagerly await the Halloween/Christmas/whatever holiday cross over where X-men have to deal with Space Marines!
This is really exciting, esp as it means there's a chance the comics wll hang around too, a lot of GW's classics have vanished into out of print and GW doesn't even digitally re-sell them (or many of them). You'd have thought they've have got on comixology by now and got their archive posted up but nope not yet it seems.
Platuan4th wrote: GW and Marvel, huh? Wonder when we're getting our Disney movie and Hasbro toyline.
Honestly wish they'd gone with IDW
IDW or Humanoids would have been great choices too! Though Marvel likely carries a much better name for outreach. Everyone by now has heard of Marvel/DC - even before the films they were big enough names well outside of the USA. IDW and Humanoids and such are good solid names but very much more in the "you're a comic fan if you know of them" rather than being "household" names for the general population.
Platuan4th wrote: GW and Marvel, huh? Wonder when we're getting our Disney movie and Hasbro toyline.
Honestly wish they'd gone with IDW
IDW or Humanoids would have been great choices too! Though Marvel likely carries a much better name for outreach. Everyone by now has heard of Marvel/DC - even before the films they were big enough names well outside of the USA. IDW and Humanoids and such are good solid names but very much more in the "you're a comic fan if you know of them" rather than being "household" names for the general population.
Both Boom and IDW have made major progress on being household names thanks to their licensed properties(Power Rangers for Boom; Transformers, Star Trek, TMNT, Ghostbusters, Jem, and MLP for IDW). Locke & Key(IDW) has gained enough following to launch a Netflix series next year. Jem and Transformers both have made some major noise in the wider geek news thanks to the amount of representation they pushed.
I think going with Marvel isn't just about going with one of the Big 2, but indicative of their push to attempt to become a mainstream multimedia company instead of "just" a game company.
My first thought was Marvel minis- phew! Marvel finally has some great series going again, so there is a (small) chance for these to be good. But my bet is WARHAMMER ADVENTURES comics.........
Marshal Loss wrote:Here comes the Warhammer Cinematic Universe
In all seriousness I won't be buying any of these. Curious to see where it leads though.
Platuan4th wrote:
...
I think going with Marvel isn't just about going with one of the Big 2, but indicative of their push to attempt to become a mainstream multimedia company instead of "just" a game company.
I think it's pretty obvious where it leads.
Trying to mainstream is right.
My prediction - All of the non-core game story output will be scrubbed of anything too grim-dark or offensive until it's palatable to wider mainstream audiences.
Whether or not this gets reflected back into the game fluff - not sure. Coin toss.
Actually kind of interested to see how this turns out?
Marvel still has their Knights label they use for their darker, more mature, content. Like how DC had Vertigo...So I could see 40k and maybe AoS fitting in there to keep them true to their darker themes.
Overall, if GW allows them insignificant stories to start I don't see what the harm could be. If they like the way things are rolling with Marvel then they can start looking at important storylines they usually only do themselves.
There’s plenty of room in GW’s worlds for in depth stories that don’t shake the status quo.
Definitely an advantage of them being so huge and curiously ill defined.
Consider 40k. You’ve got Hive Worlds for the Blade Runner aesthetic, Feudal Worlds for films like that one where a space dude helps Vikings fight off an Alien, Primitive Worlds for near Planet of the Apes stuff.
AoS is much the same. Opinions on execution to one side, the Realms are functionally endless in size - so lots of room for serious story telling without having to worry about treading on narrative toes.
Yup, I have a feeling it'll be like the Boom Comics, Inferno Comics, and earlier Black Library books where the authors are free to tell whatever story they want within the confines of GW's rules and have no impact on the major events GW reserves for themselves.
The Realms can have whole kingdoms go to war over Realmgates, battle across multiple planes and yet never encounter any of the core settlments, the core narrative nor have any impact on the Gods.
40K is the same - whole worlds can burn and blaze and go to war; hive fleets can be crushed; Warrghs can rise; Craftworlds can fall and Imperium warriors smash things in the name of the Emperor and it changes nothing in the grand overall story.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Platuan4th wrote: Yup, I have a feeling it'll be like the Boom Comics, Inferno Comics, and earlier Black Library books where the authors are free to tell whatever story they want within the confines of GW's rules and have no impact on the major events GW reserves for themselves.
Which I hope is the case, giving writers and artists freedom to explore within a setting can often produce better work than when they keep getting constrained by the setting.
MCU has some dark moments though - they just handle them like Black Library does in its non horror/Heresy titles and don't show the gory details.
Thanos wipes out half of all known life.
Black Widow kills herself to allow hawkeye to get the gem.
Gammora's sister having real parts replaced by bionics.
I've no idea what titles Boom even does, I've heard of IDW but if you are GW then you want a major player if they are interested and that's Marvel.
What a shame that GW never partnered with their true soulmate in the comics business: 90s Image Comics. They had so much in common:
* Giant improbable weapons
* Love of pauldrons and pouches
* Terrible naming practices
* Dodgy anatomy
* Poorly designed and disproportioned feet
* Being TOTALLY X-TREME! ALL THE TIME!
*imagine I’m good at art, and I’ve just drawn an absolute Pinhead Marine, chest like a battleship prow, Pauldrons like a Deathstar split in half, with teens tiny Warmahordes style legs*
Cryptek of Awesome wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious where it leads.
Trying to mainstream is right.
My prediction - All of the non-core game story output will be scrubbed of anything too grim-dark or offensive until it's palatable to wider mainstream audiences.
Whether or not this gets reflected back into the game fluff - not sure. Coin toss.
Disney sell place settings and lunch boxes for toddlers plastered with images of a mass murdering sorcerer and his horde of mass produced henchmen without half a conscience.between all of them
Deadpool... that's all you really need to say.
I dont think a few demons and some grim darkness is going to rock the boat all that much...
Ah, this explains why they dropped their Titan Comics cooperation like a hot potato. Hopefully Marvel forces better QC than Titan did, DoW III comic featured one of the most garbage art quality I have ever seen in print and terribad story, Deathwatch had such weak non-story I wonder what even was the point (plus art that you sometimes wonder how it passed simple logic check, never mind any kind of actual review, like forgetting to draw the actual barrel part of gun multiple times) and while I don't have a problem with their DA comics, I hear DA fans were whining there was something wrong with them too.
As for the content, Cain would make perfect Marvel series, as would a lot of other series. Hopefully GW won't insist on 40K writers this time...
Nothing much to show at the moment, but told to expect them around 2020.
*YAWN*
Seriously, no one reads super hero comics anymore, let alone 40K stuff.
Except they do...? Comics are still super popular. Look at Detective Comics #1000, celebrating the 80th anniversary of Batman. The issue had initial orders in North America of more than 526,000 copies. That would be like saying nobody buys models to paint anymore. They do. You're just not hanging out with that crowd.
Nothing much to show at the moment, but told to expect them around 2020.
*YAWN*
Seriously, no one reads super hero comics anymore, let alone 40K stuff.
Except they do...? Comics are still super popular. Look at Detective Comics #1000, celebrating the 80th anniversary of Batman. The issue had initial orders in North America of more than 526,000 copies. That would be like saying nobody buys models to paint anymore. They do. You're just not hanging out with that crowd.
All three of the stores in my area stopped carrying comics in the spring because they made nothing in terms of sales for the shops. Marvels sale of print comics are at an all time low, and I believe I read that DC is even worse.
Could it be that digital sales are simply overtaking print rather like in books? I know that I buy almost all my comics on Comixology in digital and read them on a tablet rather than get them in physical form (I tend to reserve that for something hardback and special)
"We outsourced our previous comics to failing companies and it didn't work well, so now we're going to change up our strategy and outsource our comics to a company that has locked itself in a suicidal culture war with its fanbase!"
Overread wrote: Could it be that digital sales are simply overtaking print rather like in books? I know that I buy almost all my comics on Comixology in digital and read them on a tablet rather than get them in physical form (I tend to reserve that for something hardback and special)
Digital sales could be. I have no idea how many people do the tablet thing.
Pretty low numbers. Digital is just another deathknell to the brick and mortar stores.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: "We outsourced our previous comics to failing companies and it didn't work well, so now we're going to change up our strategy and outsource our comics to a company that has locked itself in a suicidal culture war with its fanbase!"
GW needs to just make their own comics.
This is the other issue I was trying to avoid, but yes, it is an issue. A Big one.
Without going into any specifics on what Marvel is doing, and all the different sides in that struggle, and hope we can all appreciate that 40k currently does NOT have that conflict taking place within it on any large scale, and I hope it stays that way.
SamusDrake wrote: Would have thought 2000AD would have been an ideal match for Gamesworkshop.
It arguably would. Their influence, in the early days was kind of mutual. But, much as I love me 2000AD and that, I’m not sure it’s reach is suitably international for GW’s reach.
One needs only to look to US reviews of Dredd 3D criticising his fascistic nature to see how little their prize IP is know outside of these sceptre isles.
I take it you haven't seen what Disney has done to Star Wars or you wouldn't be saying that.
Warhammer under Disney would likely turn into something much worse than any of the bumbling GW manages now.
A 40k movie in the style of Rogue One? Would happily watch that...
But alas, this is just about comics.
I would too, but people need to realize that Rogue One was an comforting outlier amongst the disaster that has been the rest of Disney's Star Wars reboot (I'm not talking about just the film's but also the licensing, merchandising, etc).
Irbis wrote: Ah, this explains why they dropped their Titan Comics cooperation like a hot potato. Hopefully Marvel forces better QC than Titan did, DoW III comic featured one of the most garbage art quality I have ever seen in print and terribad story, Deathwatch had such weak non-story I wonder what even was the point (plus art that you sometimes wonder how it passed simple logic check, never mind any kind of actual review, like forgetting to draw the actual barrel part of gun multiple times) and while I don't have a problem with their DA comics, I hear DA fans were whining there was something wrong with them too.
As for the content, Cain would make perfect Marvel series, as would a lot of other series. Hopefully GW won't insist on 40K writers this time...
Dan Abnett has worked for both marvel comics and Black Library. I could see him being tapped for the series
Irbis wrote: Ah, this explains why they dropped their Titan Comics cooperation like a hot potato. Hopefully Marvel forces better QC than Titan did, DoW III comic featured one of the most garbage art quality I have ever seen in print and terribad story, Deathwatch had such weak non-story I wonder what even was the point (plus art that you sometimes wonder how it passed simple logic check, never mind any kind of actual review, like forgetting to draw the actual barrel part of gun multiple times) and while I don't have a problem with their DA comics, I hear DA fans were whining there was something wrong with them too.
As for the content, Cain would make perfect Marvel series, as would a lot of other series. Hopefully GW won't insist on 40K writers this time...
Dan Abnett has worked for both marvel comics and Black Library. I could see him being tapped for the series
Indeed, the MCU’s breakout heroes, the Guardians of the Galaxy are based off his take on them. He’s named in the credits.
I don't read comics but 40k getting one step closer to sitting at the table with The Mouse is something that makes me happy.
Besides 40k fluff isn't all that impressive nor is it all that dark. And mostly relies on tons of fan base editorializing to make it sound cooler than it actually is. Hell, most of 40k fluff is barely punching at Young Adults level and hasn't in a long time.
So I don't see how this will impact anything other than generating more exposure for something I like.
Dranu wrote: This is terrible news. Marvel and Disney will make 40k a happy-go-lucky thing or cram politics down our throats now.
40k lore actively portrays Imperium, a xenophobic, luddite, authoritarian theocracy as the good guys we the audience are supposed to cheer for, as "the humans". A bit late to keep politics out of the setting, isn't it?
But who knows, maybe we'll return to the traditional days when GW made fun of the imperium instead?
This is either
1) Marxist Social Justice Comics for normies.
2) A total failure simular to Space Marine Movie but worse.
3) Comic books are doing badly if you know go research the statistics because of market factors change with time (We in the era of on demand content, comics is not on demand even if there are online providers. Many other factors), putting real world propaganda into entertainment isn't helping this either.
There is a reason why OG comics are worth a lot of money and CURRENT Edition no1s are worth less than toilet paper (an will be this forever).
Dranu wrote: This is terrible news. Marvel and Disney will make 40k a happy-go-lucky thing or cram politics down our throats now.
Or you could just, I don't know, not read these comics...?
Except this is a complete fallacy and not an actual counter to anything he said.
Not buying a product does not work against Marxists. They cite "white males are bad, and are just sexist women haters that live in the basement and move on with their day." They do not care about profits only to acquire more vehicles to infect their politics into. This has a proven negative effect on any brand they get their hands on.
ThatMG wrote: ... putting real world propaganda into entertainment isn't helping this either.
People have been putting 'real world propaganda' into entertainment for as long as there has been entertainment.
Except this is a complete fallacy and not an actual counter to anything he said.
Not buying a product does not work against Marxists. They cite "white males are bad, and are just sexist women haters that live in the basement and move on with their day." They do not care about profits only to acquire more vehicles to infect their politics into. This has a proven negative effect on any brand they get their hands on.
Except it is a counter to the claim that something is being 'crammed down our throats'.
Unless Marvel representatives are showing up at your house, strapping you to a chair and forcing you at gunpoint to read these comics, nothing in them is being 'crammed down your throat'. If you don't like the direction these comics take, or if you choose to dislike them based on nothing more than your assumptions about what they will be like, you can just choose to not read them and your throat will remain magically uncrammed and your Warhammer lore will remain a sparkling gem of purity.
There were 40k comics before. Dan Abnett even wrote some of them. I don't remember any of them being any good. And it's been a couple years since last I was reading comic books, but at least back then Marvel comics were mostly pretty terrible. So I don't have high hopes.
insaniak wrote: Except this is a complete fallacy and not an actual counter to anything he said.
Unless Marvel representatives are showing up at your house, strapping you to a chair and forcing you at gunpoint to read these comics, nothing in them is being 'crammed down your throat'.
credit me with some intelligence my friend. It is an expression, I don't expect them to actually put a comic book down my throat, just for them to seek to evangelize even in art intended to be recreation.
Dranu wrote: credit me with some intelligence my friend. It is an expression, I don't expect them to actually put a comic book down my throat, just for them to seek to evangelize even in art intended to be recreation.
Being a figure of speech, and being inaccurate hyperbole are not mutually exclusive.
And, again, comics have been reflecting social issues for as long as there have been comics. If you don't like that sort of thing in your entertainment, that's up to you, but to suggest that it's being forced on you in any way is just absurd.
It's even more absurd when you're complaining about it before it's even happened.
I'm having flashbacks here to when the entire hobby was going to collapse in flames due to GW releasing novels for younger readers...
insaniak wrote: Unless Marvel representatives are showing up at your house, strapping you to a chair and forcing you at gunpoint to read these comics, nothing in them is being 'crammed down your throat'.
I get warned/suspended/banned every time I try to talk about Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Even here, I was called racist and sexist - insinuating that I was "couching" my hatred in secret code - then told that I belonged on 8chan for my views by a mod. When I reminded them that this was a rule 1 violation, I was suspended.
I'm a Marvel comics fan going back about 40 years or so, and discussing the qualities (or lack thereof) of various comics, storylines, and characters has been a time honored tradition, but these days, discussing things you love is more likely to get you labeled as a white supremacist and banned. It's true that the comics themselves are not being crammed down our throats, but there's plenty of throat cramming going on regardless.
I miss the old days of the internet where you could argue whether Picard or Sisko was the better captain and not end up being banned for invisible racism.
insaniak wrote: Unless Marvel representatives are showing up at your house, strapping you to a chair and forcing you at gunpoint to read these comics, nothing in them is being 'crammed down your throat'.
I get warned/suspended/banned every time I try to talk about Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Even here, I was called racist and sexist - insinuating that I was "couching" my hatred in secret code - then told that I belonged on 8chan for my views by a mod. When I reminded them that this was a rule 1 violation, I was suspended.
I'm a Marvel comics fan going back about 40 years or so, and discussing the qualities (or lack thereof) of various comics, storylines, and characters has been a time honored tradition, but these days, discussing things you love is more likely to get you labeled as a white supremacist and banned. It's true that the comics themselves are not being crammed down our throats, but there's plenty of throat cramming going on regardless.
I miss the old days of the internet where you could argue whether Picard or Sisko was the better captain and not end up being banned for invisible racism.
Or maybe, at some point, it's worth stopping and asking yourself if the problem is everyone else in the world, or if it might be something to do with the way you choose to discuss the issue...?
I miss the old days of the internet where you could argue whether Picard or Sisko was the better captain and not end up being banned for invisible racism.
Didn't we do that thread recently without any racism?
And yeah this will likely be like Warhammer does computer games and board games and movies - outside production firms using the GW IP and licence to produce products so that GW doesn't have to pay money for revenue and instead sells the licence.
Dranu wrote: credit me with some intelligence my friend. It is an expression, I don't expect them to actually put a comic book down my throat, just for them to seek to evangelize even in art intended to be recreation.
If you don't like that sort of thing in your entertainment, that's up to you, but to suggest that it's being forced on you in any way is just absurd.
This things permeate the hobby if they have enough influence correct? If so then there is little avoiding it if you like the hobby. Again I meant an expression of speech by cramping down ones throat and I'm sorry the confusion it caused. To be clear by it I mean of infiltration of current political philosophy in a heavy handed presentation (e.g. think Christianity in Narnia vs Christianity in LotR) in areas that are escapes from it.
I would certainly agree with you if it were some side fan fluff. I would just avoid that, but I do like the current Cannon and predicting Marvel's future track record based on past performance is rational and a likely bet. Now you might like this, not denying it, I'm only coming from a fan boys perspective of one who likes the absence of SWJ evangelization in my hobbies.
EnTyme wrote: You're aware that the X-men were an allegory, right?
People like this just do not get this. There are people who are complaining about forced diversity and liberal pandering in Star Trek! Bloody Star Trek!
Similarly they fail to understand that 40K was always political. It was born in Thatcher's Britain, made by Bowie-listening lefties. The setting is an absurd parody of conservatism and right wing ideology. Granted, missing that these days is understandable, as the current creators are more interested portraying the Imperium as big damn shiny heroes.
Dranu wrote: To be clear by it I mean of infiltration of current political philosophy in a heavy handed presentation (e.g. think Christianity in Narnia vs Christianity in LotR) in areas that are escapes from it.
But that's just the thing - comics have never been an escape from this. That's neither exclusive to Marvel, nor a new thing.
These will at best be peripherally associated with the actual game. They'll have as much of an impact as the Black Library novels - good if you want them, completely ignorable if you don't.
insaniak wrote: Unless Marvel representatives are showing up at your house, strapping you to a chair and forcing you at gunpoint to read these comics, nothing in them is being 'crammed down your throat'.
I get warned/suspended/banned every time I try to talk about Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Even here, I was called racist and sexist - insinuating that I was "couching" my hatred in secret code - then told that I belonged on 8chan for my views by a mod. When I reminded them that this was a rule 1 violation, I was suspended.
I'm a Marvel comics fan going back about 40 years or so, and discussing the qualities (or lack thereof) of various comics, storylines, and characters has been a time honored tradition, but these days, discussing things you love is more likely to get you labeled as a white supremacist and banned. It's true that the comics themselves are not being crammed down our throats, but there's plenty of throat cramming going on regardless.
I miss the old days of the internet where you could argue whether Picard or Sisko was the better captain and not end up being banned for invisible racism.
if you're such a long term marvel fan surely you should know Captain America was created before the USA got into WW2 and many Americans at the time it launched staunchly opposed "getting involved in a european war" (fun fact both Canada and the USA turned away Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust) and certainly you understand that the X-men where always a thinly veiled allusion to issues with prejudice in society?
Marvel hasn't started pushing social issues dude, they've ALWAYS done it. you just don't realize it when you see a comic book written in the 1960s because those issues are old news
Dranu wrote: To be clear by it I mean of infiltration of current political philosophy in a heavy handed presentation (e.g. think Christianity in Narnia vs Christianity in LotR) in areas that are escapes from it.
But that's just the thing - comics have never been an escape from this. That's neither exclusive to Marvel, nor a new thing.
Thats partially my point. Warhammer, as it stands, normally does not prosyelytize and so is an escape from todays rhetoric. Marvel does evangelize and heavy handedly. Their addition here threatens to twist the cannon for political proselytizing. So I agree.
Though you may like your hobby swimming in it I do not, and trying to enjoy it by picking out those details is like trying to enjoy chocolate chip cookies where you know some of the chips are droppings.
These will at best be peripherally associated with the actual game. They'll have as much of an impact as the Black Library novels - good if you want them, completely ignorable if you don't.
I certainly hope you are right. I'm more expressing a reasonable fear than certainty. Of course I do think it will push well beyond into the rest of the hobby.
Same with Star Trek. It’s always been about forcing diversity and liberal pandering, not a recent development. Some folks don’t want that in their entertainment. I can respect that.
"Comics have always had political overtones, so nobody is allowed to complain about the specifics of the current overtones, how they are presented, or how they have impacted the quality of the stories."
That's all this last page has been so far. People who are zealous about the specific messages being pushed are happy to overlook the rapidly deteriorating quality of the art and writing because they view the works only as a vehicle for their political agenda.
The vast majority of readers agree with the politics, but are confused as to why its here, and why every story is being turned into a political struggle session when these ideas are already mainstream and accepted. But when those people complain or notice that comics have gone from stories with political overtones to politics wrapped in a story, they get straw manned as being the few percent of people who actually disagree with the politics.
The end result is the whole thing turns to crap, the fandom becomes toxic and filled with political commissars waiting to catch the next thought criminal, and everyone just gets more miserable.
The 40k community ought to know better as 40k itself already comments on/parodies this sort of problem with the Imperium and Inquisition.
EnTyme wrote: You're aware that the X-men were an allegory, right?
The setting is an absurd parody of conservatism and right wing ideology. Granted, missing that these days is understandable, as the current creators are more interested portraying the Imperium as big damn shiny heroes.
It might have been originally, but at least since I got into the hobby (with DOW I) the extent of comic relief in it was limited to over-the-top medieval stuff, and it was far from political commentary.
I like it how it's been since their great successes then with a few exceptions.
Let's just be clear that Marvel Comics =/= Marvel Studios.
So don't get your hopes up about this leading to a movie.
Dread Master wrote: Same with Star Trek. It’s always been about forcing diversity and liberal pandering, not a recent development. Some folks don’t want that in their entertainment. I can respect that.
'Cept that Trek never did anything as blatant as this.
BrianDavion wrote: if you're such a long term marvel fan surely you should know Captain America was created before the USA got into WW2 and many Americans at the time it launched staunchly opposed "getting involved in a european war" (fun fact both Canada and the USA turned away Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust) and certainly you understand that the X-men where always a thinly veiled allusion to issues with prejudice in society?
Marvel hasn't started pushing social issues dude, they've ALWAYS done it. you just don't realize it when you see a comic book written in the 1960s because those issues are old news
Marvel has always had politics as a backdrop to stories. Marvel Comics have never been purely political prior to 2016.
Sure, if you want to talk about X-Men being an allegory for discrimination, or Black Panther being created specifically in response to the Clan, or Captain America being created in response to extremism, or Fantastic Four being created in response to Communism / The Cold War, go ahead.
Just try and remember that those politics are a very limited part of their identity, and most of the major themes / arcs involving these characters have little to do with political themes related to their original. The X-Men with Inferno or the Dark Phoenix saga are good examples, they have little to do with discrimination and everything to do with existential themes of resentment and loneliness. The appeal and commercial success of these characters was not built on telling people what their politics should be.
Honestly, Disney providing storylines for Games Workshop products bothers me. Sales of Marvel Comics have been down 18% year over year the past 4 years, at least 66% of their new titles have lost their audience in less than 10 issues, and average circulation for the bottom 66% of their titles has run less than 20k monthly. These comics are supposed to be mass publishing efforts and there have been times it felt like their editors are actively trying to chase away audiences.
It feels like a publisher like Rebellion would be able to do more with the brand, but perhaps there are other considerations in play.
What's wrong with diversity in movies and comics? I'm still waiting for that Asian action figure or hero that isn't the martial arts expert.
There are more minorities in Western countries now and without movements like this, we'd never get movies or representation in the cool stuff.
I wouldn't call diversity cramming stuff down your throat if Captain Marvel and Black Panther made that much money at the box office. People wanted to see it and it's a minority of folks attacking diversity in movies and comics. Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,
That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.
This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.
That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.
This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.
It's going on across the universe.
Lady Atia has one too:
"Starchild • 3 hours ago
Marvel teaming up with GW on comic books? Bye bye GW. Your first step to a political correctness takeover."
Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear? Fear about not being the top dogs?
Marvel invented an X-Man that can find hate on the Internet and destroy it. They write crap these days.
Crimson wrote: That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny.
No. It's po faced and as serious as it gets. It's a comic series that starts with Bobbi lamenting how she never had any female heroes to look up to.
Luckily that drek was cancelled after 8 issues.
Popsghostly wrote: Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear?
1. Assuming it's just "white males" is inherently sexist and racist.
2. Diversity has no inherent value. The value of a comic would come from its characters. Black Panther isn't a good character because he's black. Ms. Marvel isn't a good character because she's Muslim. If you define everyone by their race, gender or sexuality then you're putting them into some very small boxes.
Not thrilled about this, can't say i've liked any marvel films or comics. But comic books in general aren't really my thing. Isn't current marvel pretty sanitized and PC though?
Popsghostly wrote: Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,
*waves* "Minority" who doesn't care about Representation right here, and doesn't like Disney whatsoever, so i have no need to applaud them. I also happen to think Star Wars is doing worse in their hands. rather generalizing to assume everyone will like Disney's moves.
wasn't going to bother posting because this "partnership" read as a hard pass, but that was one heck of an assumption to make. i have no confidence in what may come of this, but we'll just have to see.
That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.
This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.
It's going on across the universe.
Lady Atia has one too:
"Starchild • 3 hours ago
Marvel teaming up with GW on comic books? Bye bye GW. Your first step to a political correctness takeover."
Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear? Fear about not being the top dogs?
People aren't bothered by diversity, they are bothered by forced politics that are used as an excuse for culture warriors to take over industries and force out actual artists and storytellers. These political takeovers have driven several good franchises into the dirt so far, so of course people are afraid of it happening here. But the hacks that are destroying these industries hide behind the politics themselves, so you get fooled into thinking the problem is that people are against the diversity per se.
There have been tons of successful and well loved movies/comics etc in the past, going back decades, that had diverse casts. People aren't complaining about Black Panther or Blade or the Matrix because the problem isn't the diversity.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Marvel invented an X-Man that can find hate on the Internet and destroy it. They write crap these days.
Crimson wrote: That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny.
No. It's po faced and as serious as it gets. It's a comic series that starts with Bobbi lamenting how she never had any female heroes to look up to.
Luckily that drek was cancelled after 8 issues.
Popsghostly wrote: Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear?
1. Assuming it's just "white males" is inherently sexist and racist.
2. Diversity has no inherent value. The value of a comic would come from its characters. Black Panther isn't a good character because he's black. Ms. Marvel isn't a good character because she's Muslim. If you define everyone by their race, gender or sexuality then you're putting them into some very small boxes.
No inherent value to who? Is he a good character because he's black? Is Ms. Marvel a good character because she's Muslim?
Bdrone wrote: . I also happen to think Star Wars is doing worse in their hands. rather generalizing to assume everyone will like Disney's moves..
Well, we had the poster earlier claiming that everyone who has seen Disney's Star Wars films would automatically dislike them, so that would seem to even things up now.
Popsghostly wrote: Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,
*waves* "Minority" who doesn't care about Representation right here, and doesn't like Disney whatsoever, so i have no need to applaud them. I also happen to think Star Wars is doing worse in their hands. rather generalizing to assume everyone will like Disney's moves.
wasn't going to bother posting because this "partnership" read as a hard pass, but that was one heck of an assumption to make. i have no confidence in what may come of this, but we'll just have to see.
Alright, so I shouldn't generalize so much. Glad to know there's others but it differs from the crowd I see at the GW shops.
Popsghostly wrote: What's wrong with diversity in movies and comics? I'm still waiting for that Asian action figure or hero that isn't the martial arts expert.
There are more minorities in Western countries now and without movements like this, we'd never get movies or representation in the cool stuff.
I wouldn't call diversity cramming stuff down your throat if Captain Marvel and Black Panther made that much money at the box office. People wanted to see it and it's a minority of folks attacking diversity in movies and comics. Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,
There's nothing wrong with diversity in movies and comics per se. The business model for comic books has been suffering and a lot of people would like to see stories that are less political. While diversity and politics are not necessarily the same thing, they often intertwine in ways that readers don't care for.
While it's fine to discuss the box-office success of Captain Marvel and Black Panther, the story is not so great for actual comic book stores. Since 2014, the number of stores has declined from 4000+ to about 1400. This has impacted many people I know, including women and POCs, who just want to sell merchandise at levels that allows them to keep their doors open.
A big reason for the decline in direct sales is the distribution model. Comic Book shops purchase their books from distributors months in advance of publication. There is no way to return unsold comics, the cost for a $5 floppy can be as high as $3.25. You really need to sell those comics to make a profit, and, when the circulation of a title goes below 20k, your odds of taking a loss increase dramatically. When it happens across a range of titles, you end up with a pile of paper no one wants. Every time you see a comic book store selling comics for $1 a piece in a bargain bin, the loss for each issue is at least $1 to the store.
Most people don't have a problem with diversity but that doesn't necessarily mean there is an audience for stories themed around the issue.
Of course is has. Black Panther and Uhura were important to many people for the reason of being black heroes in an era when such characters were vanishingly rare. And no one is saying that this would be the sole merit or defining characteristic of these characters, of course not. But thinking it that it doesn't matter is utterly asinine.
That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.
This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.
It's going on across the universe.
Lady Atia has one too:
"Starchild • 3 hours ago
Marvel teaming up with GW on comic books? Bye bye GW. Your first step to a political correctness takeover."
Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear? Fear about not being the top dogs?
People aren't bothered by diversity, they are bothered by forced politics that are used as an excuse for culture warriors to take over industries and force out actual artists and storytellers. These political takeovers have driven several good franchises into the dirt so far, so of course people are afraid of it happening here. But the hacks that are destroying these industries hide behind the politics themselves, so you get fooled into thinking the problem is that people are against the diversity per se.
There have been tons of successful and well loved movies/comics etc in the past, going back decades, that had diverse casts. People aren't complaining about Black Panther or Blade or the Matrix because the problem isn't the diversity.
Thanks for clarifying this.
Growing up in the 80's was tough and dealt with a good deal of racism; i.e., you can't be a Ghostbuster because you are Chinese and all the subtleties of proving I was just as American as the rest of the students, so my view differs. I find these times much easier for me and my family though. A lot of it could be the changing demographics in the suburbs too.
That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.
This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.
It's going on across the universe.
Lady Atia has one too:
"Starchild • 3 hours ago
Marvel teaming up with GW on comic books? Bye bye GW. Your first step to a political correctness takeover."
Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear? Fear about not being the top dogs?
People aren't bothered by diversity, they are bothered by forced politics that are used as an excuse for culture warriors to take over industries and force out actual artists and storytellers. These political takeovers have driven several good franchises into the dirt so far, so of course people are afraid of it happening here. But the hacks that are destroying these industries hide behind the politics themselves, so you get fooled into thinking the problem is that people are against the diversity per se.
There have been tons of successful and well loved movies/comics etc in the past, going back decades, that had diverse casts. People aren't complaining about Black Panther or Blade or the Matrix because the problem isn't the diversity.
insaniak wrote:Or maybe, at since point, it's worth stopping and asking yourself if the problem is everyone else in the world, or if it might be something to do with the way you choose to discuss the issue...?
I, for one, am thrilled that we have moderators here who have the ability to read minds and know the hidden desires that reside within our soul. Saves me so much effort actually putting my thoughts into words where their meaning can just be assumed!
Regardless, the point still stands. Not reading bad comics is no longer a defense against being affected by them. Marketing has framed criticism as a morality deviation, and people believe they are being righteous by acting like complete buttholes. Even mods. Especially mods.
BrianDavion wrote:if you're such a long term marvel fan surely you should know Captain America was created before the USA got into WW2 and many Americans at the time it launched staunchly opposed "getting involved in a european war" (fun fact both Canada and the USA turned away Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust) and certainly you understand that the X-men where always a thinly veiled allusion to issues with prejudice in society?
Marvel hasn't started pushing social issues dude, they've ALWAYS done it. you just don't realize it when you see a comic book written in the 1960s because those issues are old news
This is what I'm talking about it. I never said ANYTHING about this stuff. You are making assumptions about what I believe based on NOTHING. It's pure invention.
I've always said that Black Panther, as a character, is like a less interesting Namor who is rarely even the most interesting character in his own books. And that Ms Marvel was a background character that other background characters forgot existed until she got a new haircut. Nobody has ever really done anything interesting with her as a character, so I think it was a terrible move that Marvel decided to give her a movie when there are literally hundreds of more interesting and worthwhile characters to explore (She-Hulk is one, and I was thrilled when her tv series was announced).
I didn't bring up politics or the culture war or anything like that! YOU did! Many of my most favorite comics have been political in nature (like Days of Future Past or Civil War). I LOVE political comics! It may be trite and predictable, by my favorite comic of all time is Watchmen, and it doesn't get much more overtly political than that (much of which is probably lost on readers who didn't live through the 80s).
My complaints are purely based on the quality of these characters AS characters, and what writers have done (or failed to do) with them over the years, but everybody assumes that if I don't like them, it must be because I want to show off my MAGA hat. These characters are older than I am, and I've had these opinions since well before the MCU ever became a thing - but it is only because of how Marvel decided to market their movies that I am now vilified for it. And that's absurd. And yet here we are. You've fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker.
Forced diversity is a dangerous road to travel, as generally speaking, folks don’t like being forced to do anything. History provides us with example after example. The more heterogeneous a society becomes, the more it degenerates and descends towards it’s collapse. That’s why freedom of association is such an important right. Choice. Regardless of how distasteful that may seem to the social utopians.
Crimson wrote: What's forced diversity? What makes it forced? Why forced uniformity in the era when most heroes were white straight men was not a problem?
Remember when they cast a black horse as Pegasus in the Clash of the Titans remake?
Temporarily locking this as we are waaaaaayyyyyyy off track.
This thread is for discussing GW and Marvel's partnership announcement, not a proxy for debating politics / societal issues / etc...
I'll re-open (or we can make a new thread) when there are more details to discuss, and see if this thread can stay on topic - if not, it will have to be locked permanently...
