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 Dranu wrote:
credit me with some intelligence my friend. It is an expression, I don't expect them to actually put a comic book down my throat, just for them to seek to evangelize even in art intended to be recreation.

Being a figure of speech, and being inaccurate hyperbole are not mutually exclusive.

And, again, comics have been reflecting social issues for as long as there have been comics. If you don't like that sort of thing in your entertainment, that's up to you, but to suggest that it's being forced on you in any way is just absurd.

It's even more absurd when you're complaining about it before it's even happened.


I'm having flashbacks here to when the entire hobby was going to collapse in flames due to GW releasing novels for younger readers...

 insaniak wrote:
Unless Marvel representatives are showing up at your house, strapping you to a chair and forcing you at gunpoint to read these comics, nothing in them is being 'crammed down your throat'.

I get warned/suspended/banned every time I try to talk about Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Even here, I was called racist and sexist - insinuating that I was "couching" my hatred in secret code - then told that I belonged on 8chan for my views by a mod. When I reminded them that this was a rule 1 violation, I was suspended.

I'm a Marvel comics fan going back about 40 years or so, and discussing the qualities (or lack thereof) of various comics, storylines, and characters has been a time honored tradition, but these days, discussing things you love is more likely to get you labeled as a white supremacist and banned. It's true that the comics themselves are not being crammed down our throats, but there's plenty of throat cramming going on regardless.

I miss the old days of the internet where you could argue whether Picard or Sisko was the better captain and not end up being banned for invisible racism.

Or maybe, at some point, it's worth stopping and asking yourself if the problem is everyone else in the world, or if it might be something to do with the way you choose to discuss the issue...?

 Sqorgar wrote:


I miss the old days of the internet where you could argue whether Picard or Sisko was the better captain and not end up being banned for invisible racism.

Didn't we do that thread recently without any racism?






And yeah this will likely be like Warhammer does computer games and board games and movies - outside production firms using the GW IP and licence to produce products so that GW doesn't have to pay money for revenue and instead sells the licence.

 insaniak wrote:

 Dranu wrote:
credit me with some intelligence my friend. It is an expression, I don't expect them to actually put a comic book down my throat, just for them to seek to evangelize even in art intended to be recreation.

If you don't like that sort of thing in your entertainment, that's up to you, but to suggest that it's being forced on you in any way is just absurd.

This things permeate the hobby if they have enough influence correct? If so then there is little avoiding it if you like the hobby. Again I meant an expression of speech by cramping down ones throat and I'm sorry the confusion it caused. To be clear by it I mean of infiltration of current political philosophy in a heavy handed presentation (e.g. think Christianity in Narnia vs Christianity in LotR) in areas that are escapes from it.

I would certainly agree with you if it were some side fan fluff. I would just avoid that, but I do like the current Cannon and predicting Marvel's future track record based on past performance is rational and a likely bet. Now you might like this, not denying it, I'm only coming from a fan boys perspective of one who likes the absence of SWJ evangelization in my hobbies.

You're aware that the X-men were an allegory, right?

 EnTyme wrote:
You're aware that the X-men were an allegory, right?

People like this just do not get this. There are people who are complaining about forced diversity and liberal pandering in Star Trek! Bloody Star Trek!

Similarly they fail to understand that 40K was always political. It was born in Thatcher's Britain, made by Bowie-listening lefties. The setting is an absurd parody of conservatism and right wing ideology. Granted, missing that these days is understandable, as the current creators are more interested portraying the Imperium as big damn shiny heroes.

 Dranu wrote:
To be clear by it I mean of infiltration of current political philosophy in a heavy handed presentation (e.g. think Christianity in Narnia vs Christianity in LotR) in areas that are escapes from it.

But that's just the thing - comics have never been an escape from this. That's neither exclusive to Marvel, nor a new thing.


These will at best be peripherally associated with the actual game. They'll have as much of an impact as the Black Library novels - good if you want them, completely ignorable if you don't.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Unless Marvel representatives are showing up at your house, strapping you to a chair and forcing you at gunpoint to read these comics, nothing in them is being 'crammed down your throat'.

I get warned/suspended/banned every time I try to talk about Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Even here, I was called racist and sexist - insinuating that I was "couching" my hatred in secret code - then told that I belonged on 8chan for my views by a mod. When I reminded them that this was a rule 1 violation, I was suspended.

I'm a Marvel comics fan going back about 40 years or so, and discussing the qualities (or lack thereof) of various comics, storylines, and characters has been a time honored tradition, but these days, discussing things you love is more likely to get you labeled as a white supremacist and banned. It's true that the comics themselves are not being crammed down our throats, but there's plenty of throat cramming going on regardless.

I miss the old days of the internet where you could argue whether Picard or Sisko was the better captain and not end up being banned for invisible racism.

if you're such a long term marvel fan surely you should know Captain America was created before the USA got into WW2 and many Americans at the time it launched staunchly opposed "getting involved in a european war" (fun fact both Canada and the USA turned away Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust) and certainly you understand that the X-men where always a thinly veiled allusion to issues with prejudice in society?

Marvel hasn't started pushing social issues dude, they've ALWAYS done it. you just don't realize it when you see a comic book written in the 1960s because those issues are old news

Looking forward to seeing what they do.

 insaniak wrote:

 Dranu wrote:
To be clear by it I mean of infiltration of current political philosophy in a heavy handed presentation (e.g. think Christianity in Narnia vs Christianity in LotR) in areas that are escapes from it.

But that's just the thing - comics have never been an escape from this. That's neither exclusive to Marvel, nor a new thing.

Thats partially my point. Warhammer, as it stands, normally does not prosyelytize and so is an escape from todays rhetoric. Marvel does evangelize and heavy handedly. Their addition here threatens to twist the cannon for political proselytizing. So I agree.

Though you may like your hobby swimming in it I do not, and trying to enjoy it by picking out those details is like trying to enjoy chocolate chip cookies where you know some of the chips are droppings.

These will at best be peripherally associated with the actual game. They'll have as much of an impact as the Black Library novels - good if you want them, completely ignorable if you don't.

I certainly hope you are right. I'm more expressing a reasonable fear than certainty. Of course I do think it will push well beyond into the rest of the hobby.

Same with Star Trek. It’s always been about forcing diversity and liberal pandering, not a recent development. Some folks don’t want that in their entertainment. I can respect that.

"Comics have always had political overtones, so nobody is allowed to complain about the specifics of the current overtones, how they are presented, or how they have impacted the quality of the stories."

That's all this last page has been so far. People who are zealous about the specific messages being pushed are happy to overlook the rapidly deteriorating quality of the art and writing because they view the works only as a vehicle for their political agenda.

The vast majority of readers agree with the politics, but are confused as to why its here, and why every story is being turned into a political struggle session when these ideas are already mainstream and accepted. But when those people complain or notice that comics have gone from stories with political overtones to politics wrapped in a story, they get straw manned as being the few percent of people who actually disagree with the politics.

The end result is the whole thing turns to crap, the fandom becomes toxic and filled with political commissars waiting to catch the next thought criminal, and everyone just gets more miserable.

The 40k community ought to know better as 40k itself already comments on/parodies this sort of problem with the Imperium and Inquisition.

 Crimson wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
You're aware that the X-men were an allegory, right?

The setting is an absurd parody of conservatism and right wing ideology. Granted, missing that these days is understandable, as the current creators are more interested portraying the Imperium as big damn shiny heroes.

It might have been originally, but at least since I got into the hobby (with DOW I) the extent of comic relief in it was limited to over-the-top medieval stuff, and it was far from political commentary.

I like it how it's been since their great successes then with a few exceptions.

Let's just be clear that Marvel Comics =/= Marvel Studios.

So don't get your hopes up about this leading to a movie.

Dread Master wrote:
Same with Star Trek. It’s always been about forcing diversity and liberal pandering, not a recent development. Some folks don’t want that in their entertainment. I can respect that.

'Cept that Trek never did anything as blatant as this.

BrianDavion wrote:
if you're such a long term marvel fan surely you should know Captain America was created before the USA got into WW2 and many Americans at the time it launched staunchly opposed "getting involved in a european war" (fun fact both Canada and the USA turned away Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust) and certainly you understand that the X-men where always a thinly veiled allusion to issues with prejudice in society?

Marvel hasn't started pushing social issues dude, they've ALWAYS done it. you just don't realize it when you see a comic book written in the 1960s because those issues are old news

Marvel has always had politics as a backdrop to stories. Marvel Comics have never been purely political prior to 2016.

Sure, if you want to talk about X-Men being an allegory for discrimination, or Black Panther being created specifically in response to the Clan, or Captain America being created in response to extremism, or Fantastic Four being created in response to Communism / The Cold War, go ahead.

Just try and remember that those politics are a very limited part of their identity, and most of the major themes / arcs involving these characters have little to do with political themes related to their original. The X-Men with Inferno or the Dark Phoenix saga are good examples, they have little to do with discrimination and everything to do with existential themes of resentment and loneliness. The appeal and commercial success of these characters was not built on telling people what their politics should be.

Honestly, Disney providing storylines for Games Workshop products bothers me. Sales of Marvel Comics have been down 18% year over year the past 4 years, at least 66% of their new titles have lost their audience in less than 10 issues, and average circulation for the bottom 66% of their titles has run less than 20k monthly. These comics are supposed to be mass publishing efforts and there have been times it felt like their editors are actively trying to chase away audiences.

It feels like a publisher like Rebellion would be able to do more with the brand, but perhaps there are other considerations in play.

What's wrong with diversity in movies and comics? I'm still waiting for that Asian action figure or hero that isn't the martial arts expert.

There are more minorities in Western countries now and without movements like this, we'd never get movies or representation in the cool stuff.

I wouldn't call diversity cramming stuff down your throat if Captain Marvel and Black Panther made that much money at the box office. People wanted to see it and it's a minority of folks attacking diversity in movies and comics. Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Cept that Trek never did anything as blatant as this.

That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.

This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.

If it's in any way related to current Marvel, I'm 100% out.

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Cept that Trek never did anything as blatant as this.

That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.

This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.

It's going on across the universe.

Lady Atia has one too:

"Starchild • 3 hours ago
Marvel teaming up with GW on comic books? Bye bye GW. Your first step to a political correctness takeover."

Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear? Fear about not being the top dogs?

Marvel invented an X-Man that can find hate on the Internet and destroy it. They write crap these days.

 Crimson wrote:
That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny.

No. It's po faced and as serious as it gets. It's a comic series that starts with Bobbi lamenting how she never had any female heroes to look up to.

Luckily that drek was cancelled after 8 issues.

 Popsghostly wrote:
Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear?

1. Assuming it's just "white males" is inherently sexist and racist.

2. Diversity has no inherent value. The value of a comic would come from its characters. Black Panther isn't a good character because he's black. Ms. Marvel isn't a good character because she's Muslim. If you define everyone by their race, gender or sexuality then you're putting them into some very small boxes.

Not thrilled about this, can't say i've liked any marvel films or comics. But comic books in general aren't really my thing. Isn't current marvel pretty sanitized and PC though?

 Popsghostly wrote:
Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,

*waves* "Minority" who doesn't care about Representation right here, and doesn't like Disney whatsoever, so i have no need to applaud them. I also happen to think Star Wars is doing worse in their hands. rather generalizing to assume everyone will like Disney's moves.

wasn't going to bother posting because this "partnership" read as a hard pass, but that was one heck of an assumption to make. i have no confidence in what may come of this, but we'll just have to see.

 Popsghostly wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Cept that Trek never did anything as blatant as this.

That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.

This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.

It's going on across the universe.

Lady Atia has one too:

"Starchild • 3 hours ago
Marvel teaming up with GW on comic books? Bye bye GW. Your first step to a political correctness takeover."

Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear? Fear about not being the top dogs?

People aren't bothered by diversity, they are bothered by forced politics that are used as an excuse for culture warriors to take over industries and force out actual artists and storytellers. These political takeovers have driven several good franchises into the dirt so far, so of course people are afraid of it happening here. But the hacks that are destroying these industries hide behind the politics themselves, so you get fooled into thinking the problem is that people are against the diversity per se.

There have been tons of successful and well loved movies/comics etc in the past, going back decades, that had diverse casts. People aren't complaining about Black Panther or Blade or the Matrix because the problem isn't the diversity.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marvel invented an X-Man that can find hate on the Internet and destroy it. They write crap these days.

 Crimson wrote:
That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny.

No. It's po faced and as serious as it gets. It's a comic series that starts with Bobbi lamenting how she never had any female heroes to look up to.

Luckily that drek was cancelled after 8 issues.

 Popsghostly wrote:
Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear?

1. Assuming it's just "white males" is inherently sexist and racist.

2. Diversity has no inherent value. The value of a comic would come from its characters. Black Panther isn't a good character because he's black. Ms. Marvel isn't a good character because she's Muslim. If you define everyone by their race, gender or sexuality then you're putting them into some very small boxes.

No inherent value to who? Is he a good character because he's black? Is Ms. Marvel a good character because she's Muslim?

Bdrone wrote:
. I also happen to think Star Wars is doing worse in their hands. rather generalizing to assume everyone will like Disney's moves..

Well, we had the poster earlier claiming that everyone who has seen Disney's Star Wars films would automatically dislike them, so that would seem to even things up now.

Bdrone wrote:

 Popsghostly wrote:
Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,

*waves* "Minority" who doesn't care about Representation right here, and doesn't like Disney whatsoever, so i have no need to applaud them. I also happen to think Star Wars is doing worse in their hands. rather generalizing to assume everyone will like Disney's moves.

wasn't going to bother posting because this "partnership" read as a hard pass, but that was one heck of an assumption to make. i have no confidence in what may come of this, but we'll just have to see.

Alright, so I shouldn't generalize so much. Glad to know there's others but it differs from the crowd I see at the GW shops.

 Popsghostly wrote:
What's wrong with diversity in movies and comics? I'm still waiting for that Asian action figure or hero that isn't the martial arts expert.

There are more minorities in Western countries now and without movements like this, we'd never get movies or representation in the cool stuff.

I wouldn't call diversity cramming stuff down your throat if Captain Marvel and Black Panther made that much money at the box office. People wanted to see it and it's a minority of folks attacking diversity in movies and comics. Find me a minority or woman who doesn't applaud Disney and Star Wars for their changes,

There's nothing wrong with diversity in movies and comics per se. The business model for comic books has been suffering and a lot of people would like to see stories that are less political. While diversity and politics are not necessarily the same thing, they often intertwine in ways that readers don't care for.

While it's fine to discuss the box-office success of Captain Marvel and Black Panther, the story is not so great for actual comic book stores. Since 2014, the number of stores has declined from 4000+ to about 1400. This has impacted many people I know, including women and POCs, who just want to sell merchandise at levels that allows them to keep their doors open.

A big reason for the decline in direct sales is the distribution model. Comic Book shops purchase their books from distributors months in advance of publication. There is no way to return unsold comics, the cost for a $5 floppy can be as high as $3.25. You really need to sell those comics to make a profit, and, when the circulation of a title goes below 20k, your odds of taking a loss increase dramatically. When it happens across a range of titles, you end up with a pile of paper no one wants. Every time you see a comic book store selling comics for $1 a piece in a bargain bin, the loss for each issue is at least $1 to the store.

Most people don't have a problem with diversity but that doesn't necessarily mean there is an audience for stories themed around the issue.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

2. Diversity has no inherent value.

Of course is has. Black Panther and Uhura were important to many people for the reason of being black heroes in an era when such characters were vanishingly rare. And no one is saying that this would be the sole merit or defining characteristic of these characters, of course not. But thinking it that it doesn't matter is utterly asinine.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Popsghostly wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Cept that Trek never did anything as blatant as this.

That is totally awesome, and also self-aware and funny. And you obviously haven't watched much Star Trek. TNG in particular is full of Picard's 'SJW' speeches (Though Kirk definitely began the tradition) which is one of the many reasons why it is my favourite TV show ever.

This thread is hilarious though. Before a single issue is published, before there are any previews or even hits of stories people here are crying about evil SJW agenda. It must be a terrible life to be so insecure and paranoid.

It's going on across the universe.

Lady Atia has one too:

"Starchild • 3 hours ago
Marvel teaming up with GW on comic books? Bye bye GW. Your first step to a political correctness takeover."

Why does diversity in comics and movies where there is a universe of people outside white males cause so much fear? Fear about not being the top dogs?

People aren't bothered by diversity, they are bothered by forced politics that are used as an excuse for culture warriors to take over industries and force out actual artists and storytellers. These political takeovers have driven several good franchises into the dirt so far, so of course people are afraid of it happening here. But the hacks that are destroying these industries hide behind the politics themselves, so you get fooled into thinking the problem is that people are against the diversity per se.

There have been tons of successful and well loved movies/comics etc in the past, going back decades, that had diverse casts. People aren't complaining about Black Panther or Blade or the Matrix because the problem isn't the diversity.

Thanks for clarifying this.

Growing up in the 80's was tough and dealt with a good deal of racism; i.e., you can't be a Ghostbuster because you are Chinese and all the subtleties of proving I was just as American as the rest of the students, so my view differs. I find these times much easier for me and my family though. A lot of it could be the changing demographics in the suburbs too.