Ow. Seems reasonable (so far) though with the methods of grabbing dice. There's also special relics for being mono-Sisters sort of like traits.
Picture the scene – you’ve just struck a high-value enemy target with an attack that inflicts D6 Damage and it has 6 Wounds left. You could trust to fate, or even a Command Re-roll, and hope for the best… or nonchalantly burn a 6 from your pool of Miracle Dice to score a 6 automatically! What about if you’re facing a tough Morale test? Use a 1 from your Miracle Dice pool and pass it with ease!
Daedalus81 wrote: Ow. Seems reasonable (so far) though with the methods of grabbing dice. There's also special relics for being mono-Sisters like death throes for every model (*sweating intensifies*)
Picture the scene – you’ve just struck a high-value enemy target with an attack that inflicts D6 Damage and it has 6 Wounds left. You could trust to fate, or even a Command Re-roll, and hope for the best… or nonchalantly burn a 6 from your pool of Miracle Dice to score a 6 automatically! What about if you’re facing a tough Morale test? Use a 1 from your Miracle Dice pool and pass it with ease!
Nice, this is an interesting approach to Acts of Faith. It's probably heading towards it's weakest interpretation yet this edition, stratagems notwithstanding, but that's okay. I will miss movement-based acts of faith and fighting twice, though.
I really like this kind of mechanic in general, even if it's not as big as "shoot again" or what not. I think it's a fun thing to do. And it can really impact strategy if you've got a sure-thing dice roll in your pocket.
It can be really high leverage and, like, if you use it to finish off a unit you get the die back.
The downside is that it can also just end up a tiny droplet in a flood of dice rolled per game. One a round is not a lot to start with.
(If this carries over into kill team that could be quite something, given each roll is a bit higher weight there!)
But they're also getting the sacred rites on top of it which seem pretty good. I'd be tempted to roll for 2 of them and change the game plan on the fly.
rbstr wrote: I really like this kind of mechanic in general, even if it's not as big as "shoot again" or what not. I think it's a fun thing to do. And it can really impact strategy if you've got a sure-thing dice roll in your pocket.
It can be really high leverage and, like, if you use it to finish off a unit you get the die back.
The downside is that it can also just end up a tiny droplet in a flood of dice rolled per game. One a round is not a lot to start with.
(If this carries over into kill team that could be quite something, given each roll is a bit higher weight there!)
But they're also getting the sacred rites on top of it which seem pretty good. I'd be tempted to roll for 2 of them and change the game plan on the fly.
I will miss movement-based stuff. Moving twice with Seraphim was fun at the edition drop, and +3" move made the difference sometimes. No more movement on Acts of Faith, but I can use it to lock in die rolls. Unfortunately, I can't use it to lock in enemy die rolls, because that's what I would certainly mostly use them for. It's rare that I'm banking on a D6 exorcist shot to turn up 6, but it's often that I want my enemy to fail their 4+ ion shield so that my Exorcist can get it's D6 shot through.
Like in D&D, the best use of Divination dice is to make enemies fail save-or-die or save-or-suck rolls .
it is an interesting approach, and definitely an improvement over the random roll to see if an Act goes off that was tried earlier. As was mentioned, there is a decent chance the Acts of Faith we've come to know and love could become stratagems instead.
ikeulhu wrote: it is an interesting approach, and definitely an improvement over the random roll to see if an Act goes off that was tried earlier. As was mentioned, there is a decent chance the Acts of Faith we've come to know and love could become stratagems instead.
I actually think it's appreciably weaker. +1 to hit, fighting twice, and moving twice/moving +3", even on one unit per turn, are all much stronger than what amounts to a slightly better CP-re-roll. On the other hand, we're getting a stack of other random bonuses.
yeah I like this too, it'll neatly set sisters apart too making them a very reliable army when they need to be.
meanwhile their rites are the sisters answer to doctrines, a powerful ability you get for not playing soup. this does indeed seem to be a new trend and we should expect it in further codices from now on
It could be strong by dropping 6's into Exorcist barrages and Multimelta damage rolls. Since you have a way to mitigate randomness, anything that suffers from huge swings in effectiveness will be mitigated by subbing out dice for the result you want.
Yoyoyo wrote: It could be strong by dropping 6's into Exorcist barrages and Multimelta damage rolls. Since you have a way to mitigate randomness, anything that suffers from huge swings in effectiveness will be mitigated by subbing out dice for the result you want.
While it probably can benefit Exorcists, it's not on the list of things they've outright said it can be used for. Also, it's not an auto-6, it's a roll that you replace another roll with instead of rolling the other dice.
I wouldn't use it on a Meltagun in melta range, though locking in an Exorcist salvo seems like the best use of it. It notably can't be used on any dice you might have to roll or on enemy dice, somewhat limiting the value of low rolls. Now that would have been a cool and powerful ability
On the upside, while it's not a strong ability, it's a functional interpretation that for once isn't "roll to see if something cool happens". It's nice that it's a special ability that makes things more predictable and controllable, and for that I like it enough.
Yoyoyo wrote: It could be strong by dropping 6's into Exorcist barrages and Multimelta damage rolls. Since you have a way to mitigate randomness, anything that suffers from huge swings in effectiveness will be mitigated by subbing out dice for the result you want.
While it probably can benefit Exorcists, it's not on the list of things they've outright said it can be used for. Also, it's not an auto-6, it's a roll that you replace another roll with instead of rolling the other dice.
I wouldn't use it on a Meltagun in melta range, though locking in an Exorcist salvo seems like the best use of it. It notably can't be used on any dice you might have to roll or on enemy dice, somewhat limiting the value of low rolls. Now that would have been a cool and powerful ability
On the upside, while it's not a strong ability, it's a functional interpretation that for once isn't "roll to see if something cool happens". It's nice that it's a special ability that makes things more predictable and controllable, and for that I like it enough.
goven that the emperor is oft said to be a god of order making his "nuns with guns" ability being to combat randomness makes a degree of sense
Not seeing anything tying this mechanic specifically to Sisters, the ramifications of this within context of Imperial Soup is probably going to have unforeseen consequences.
Being able to guarantee a knight/vehicle explosion for example. Or using it on a Vindicare is another one. Lots of options for this the more you think about it.
Yoyoyo wrote: It could be strong by dropping 6's into Exorcist barrages and Multimelta damage rolls. Since you have a way to mitigate randomness, anything that suffers from huge swings in effectiveness will be mitigated by subbing out dice for the result you want.
While it probably can benefit Exorcists, it's not on the list of things they've outright said it can be used for. Also, it's not an auto-6, it's a roll that you replace another roll with instead of rolling the other dice.
I wouldn't use it on a Meltagun in melta range, though locking in an Exorcist salvo seems like the best use of it. It notably can't be used on any dice you might have to roll or on enemy dice, somewhat limiting the value of low rolls. Now that would have been a cool and powerful ability
On the upside, while it's not a strong ability, it's a functional interpretation that for once isn't "roll to see if something cool happens". It's nice that it's a special ability that makes things more predictable and controllable, and for that I like it enough.
goven that the emperor is oft said to be a god of order making his "nuns with guns" ability being to combat randomness makes a degree of sense
Given that he really isn't it doesn't make that much sense. The closest to order gods is C'Tan.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Not seeing anything tying this mechanic specifically to Sisters, the ramifications of this within context of Imperial Soup is probably going to have unforeseen consequences.
Being able to guarantee a knight/vehicle explosion for example. Or using it on a Vindicare is another one. Lots of options for this the more you think about it.
Given that it's from an ability derived from units with the Acts of Faith rule [it mentions this rule several times in the excerpt, and we know this is the new effect of the Acts of Faith rule], presumably it only works for units with, the Acts of Faith rule, so can't be used to lock in a Vindicare's shot or something.
Actually, now that I read that, it probably can't be used on Exorcists at all, since they don't have Acts of Faith.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Given that it's from an ability derived from units with the Acts of Faith rule, presumably it only works for units with, you know, the Acts of Faith rule, so can't be used to lock in a Vindicares shot or something.
Actually, now that I read that, it probably can't be used on Exorcists at all, since they don't have Acts of Faith.
Hopefully that's the case. However, the article specifically has a section after miracle dice detailing the benefits for staying pure Sisters/Ministorum.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Given that it's from an ability derived from units with the Acts of Faith rule, presumably it only works for units with, you know, the Acts of Faith rule, so can't be used to lock in a Vindicares shot or something.
Actually, now that I read that, it probably can't be used on Exorcists at all, since they don't have Acts of Faith.
Hopefully that's the case. However, the article specifically has a section after miracle dice detailing the benefits for staying pure Sisters/Ministorum.
I think it's just an ability that's only usable on Sisters Infantry units. It looks like it's linked to the Acts of Faith rule, which is referenced in the excerpt and we know that the miracle dice are replacing the current effect of. My guess would be that the miracle dice can only be spent on rolls made for units that have the Acts of Faith rule.
It's not a mono bonus, but if you only have a patrol with a Canoness, a squad of BSS, and an Exorcist, the it can probably only be used for rolls generated by the Canoness and the BSS because they have Acts of Faith and the non-Sisters rest of the army and the Exorcist do not.
They didn't say it outright, so you might be right, but that's my guess. I doubt the Acts of Faith rule is exclusively used to trigger the generation of Miracle Dice.
acts of faith might be SOB army wide in the new codex. as GW seems to be cluing in that having your army wide special rule only impact a fraction of your army isn't popular
BrianDavion wrote: acts of faith might be SOB army wide in the new codex. as GW seems to be cluing in that having your army wide special rule only impact a fraction of your army isn't popular
It's been more analogous in heritage to Orders than army-wide traits though, and has been around for as long as we were a thing. Guard Orders can't be used on tanks, so I can equally well see Sisters tanks being still sans-Acts of Faith.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Not seeing anything tying this mechanic specifically to Sisters, the ramifications of this within context of Imperial Soup is probably going to have unforeseen consequences.
Being able to guarantee a knight/vehicle explosion for example. Or using it on a Vindicare is another one. Lots of options for this the more you think about it.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Given that it's from an ability derived from units with the Acts of Faith rule, presumably it only works for units with, you know, the Acts of Faith rule, so can't be used to lock in a Vindicares shot or something.
Actually, now that I read that, it probably can't be used on Exorcists at all, since they don't have Acts of Faith.
Hopefully that's the case. However, the article specifically has a section after miracle dice detailing the benefits for staying pure Sisters/Ministorum.
I think it's just an ability that's only usable on Sisters Infantry units. It looks like it's linked to the Acts of Faith rule, which is referenced in the excerpt and we know that the miracle dice are replacing the current effect of. My guess would be that the miracle dice can only be spent on rolls made for units that have the Acts of Faith rule.
It's not a mono bonus, but if you only have a patrol with a Canoness, a squad of BSS, and an Exorcist, the it can probably only be used for rolls generated by the Canoness and the BSS because they have Acts of Faith and the non-Sisters rest of the army and the Exorcist do not.
They didn't say it outright, so you might be right, but that's my guess. I doubt the Acts of Faith rule is exclusively used to trigger the generation of Miracle Dice.
I like the new mechanic.
It isn't as tactical on the battlefield as the move/shoot/etc Sisters have had forever, but in a sense it is far more powerful. Characters with 4++ who have a "pool" of pre-rolled dice they can use to guarantee they make that save...is very powerful. We don't have the full rules etc, but unless I am missing something, that seems a mega target for it. (Same for all those 6++, although having that 6 in the pool is rarer). Doing the exact amount of damage needed to finish things is also a huge bonus, and the actual way I see to use those poor rolls in your miracle dice pool (I so rarely need a leadership test for sisters this edition, thanks to MSU, that seems a joke) although I do see the synergy of "I use this 1 for my morale roll, and instantly gain another die, which I roll and get a..."
I wish they had changed the Deny the Witch thing. I know, it's pointless because if you want to do this, pay for the warlord trait, strat, artifact, whatever. Still, I wish they had coupled something like model count in or whatever. Would be one reason to take more than 5 sisters in a squad.
Anyway, excited for my new codex. Have played sisters since the 90's, and enjoyed them. New gubbins is great.
Isn't the mechanic very dependand on having some big or swingy weapon though? getting a roll you want is great, and SoB will for sure have more ways to get thos miricle points. But they don't seem to have something like a castellan or a jump hammer dude to use it in larger games. In smaller ones it could be very devastating, but at 2000pts it doesn't really give much, comparing to re-rolling all 1s and being considered stationary after move.
Karol wrote: Isn't the mechanic very dependand on having some big or swingy weapon though? getting a roll you want is great, and SoB will for sure have more ways to get thos miricle points. But they don't seem to have something like a castellan or a jump hammer dude to use it in larger games. In smaller ones it could be very devastating, but at 2000pts it doesn't really give much, comparing to re-rolling all 1s and being considered stationary after move.
The thing is we don't know what Sisters have now. The beta dex basically now seems to be more of a hold-over dex now and GW have mentioned that we have a bunch of new units altogether.
We could see the return of jump pack canonesses or generic living saints and the advent of Smash Sisters
Neither do I, I just stated that to dominate to field, the miracle dice would have to have something powerful to fuel.
Lets say there is a saint that does something on a d6, every result is good, but the 6" is something like -1AP or +5inv for all models within 6". Then the dice becomes something. If it is ment to get max damage on a multi melta it is less enticing of a rule.
You can still do things like put a six into one of your charge rolls or an advance roll or have a bunch of guaranteed saves lined up. Imagine a knight charging a canoness and she simply saving all four attacks.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Not seeing anything tying this mechanic specifically to Sisters, the ramifications of this within context of Imperial Soup is probably going to have unforeseen consequences.
Being able to guarantee a knight/vehicle explosion for example. Or using it on a Vindicare is another one. Lots of options for this the more you think about it.
Only Sisters appear to be able to gain them (since all methods require the Acts of Faith ability) and there is no mention of how to spend them. So how can you say there is no tie in to Sisters?
Its easy to assume only units with the Acts of Faith ability can spend Miracle Dice.
Still it is very situational. It is hard to compare it to something like the marine doctrins, that are just in effect all the time no matter what. I can imagine it being turn 2-3 the same knight charging in, but the SoB player only being able to generate 3 dice. Charge happens and canoness goes splat.
And yes I know there is multiple ways to get the points, and that there are probably going to be more for the various chapters or through relics. still it is a bit wonky. There is nothing wonky about a bunch of centurions droping 9" away from your army and shoting the living hell out of all characters in range.
Again not that swingy can't be good. But rules that depend on other rules or units to be good, are often very unflexible.
cawls wrath was a great weapon, still probably is, but it was linked to how good a castellan is. castellan stoped being good, and it stoped to matter how good the wrath is.
Not saying the rule is bad. I just don't like swingy stuff like that.
Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.
It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.
Speaking as a returning newcomer to the game....ive watched some Battle reports on you tube and loved the late drame of having to make rolls to win the game etc.
I cant speak for balance...but taking away the drama of dive rolls from potential gaming winning actions seems to lessen the game drama and excitement for me somewhat.
I love the idea of the rule! I play D&D and there is a similar mechanic for a certain wizard archetype and although you admittetly don't roll as many dice as in a standard 40k game, it still feels really nice to just have these dicerolls banked up for certain important rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it actually feels propper "divine intervention-y" Changing fate, so to say
Karol wrote: Still it is very situational. It is hard to compare it to something like the marine doctrins, that are just in effect all the time no matter what.
That's actually not true, all doctrines a limited to certain weapon types and you have to switch through them. It just happens that the IH doctrine is linked to the one you start with.
I can imagine it being turn 2-3 the same knight charging in, but the SoB player only being able to generate 3 dice. Charge happens and canoness goes splat.
And yes I know there is multiple ways to get the points, and that there are probably going to be more for the various chapters or through relics. still it is a bit wonky. There is nothing wonky about a bunch of centurions droping 9" away from your army and shoting the living hell out of all characters in range.
Again not that swingy can't be good. But rules that depend on other rules or units to be good, are often very unflexible.
cawls wrath was a great weapon, still probably is, but it was linked to how good a castellan is. castellan stoped being good, and it stoped to matter how good the wrath is.
Not saying the rule is bad. I just don't like swingy stuff like that.
What you are describing is utility vs raw power.
These dice allow you to get the perfect die in the perfect situation, use them in the wrong situation and they do nothing. Having a guaranteed dice on a multi-melta might not be powerful in terms of the +1.5 damage done, but having a guaranteed kill on a chapter master who failed his safe is priceless.
I agree with you in general, but keep in mind that this could turn out very powerful if paired with rules that either generate extra dice or benefit massively from knowing what you are going to roll.
I also think that the main way to generate dice is to simply kill enemy units. Losing characters is unlikely to be something you want to happen, but is pretty likely as well. When I played against the beta dex last time, there were characters everywhere.
The last two are just nice to have - a sisters player should not expect to get any dice from them and be happy when it does happen.
Karol wrote: Still it is very situational. It is hard to compare it to something like the marine doctrins, that are just in effect all the time no matter what. I can imagine it being turn 2-3 the same knight charging in, but the SoB player only being able to generate 3 dice. Charge happens and canoness goes splat.
And yes I know there is multiple ways to get the points, and that there are probably going to be more for the various chapters or through relics. still it is a bit wonky. There is nothing wonky about a bunch of centurions droping 9" away from your army and shoting the living hell out of all characters in range.
Again not that swingy can't be good. But rules that depend on other rules or units to be good, are often very unflexible.
cawls wrath was a great weapon, still probably is, but it was linked to how good a castellan is. castellan stoped being good, and it stoped to matter how good the wrath is.
Not saying the rule is bad. I just don't like swingy stuff like that.
Miracle dice are the Act of Faith replacement. Sisters get a doctrine equivalent in addition if they’re running monofaction.
A.T. wrote: Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.
It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.
2 dice will be the more likely average. You're not going to be killing things in the combat phase. At least not with AoF having units.
Also, with the 4++ bubble likely dead you're looking at a predominantly MSU army so getting a dice from morale is going to be even more unlikely than the 1/6 chance per morale test implies.
9 dice by turn 4 is much more likely than 12 by turn 3.
I also don't count dice generated from dead characters simply because the loss of a character massively outweighs gaining a single paltry miracle dice.
A.T. wrote: Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.
It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.
2 dice will be the more likely average. You're not going to be killing things in the combat phase. At least not with AoF having units.
Also, with the 4++ bubble likely dead you're looking at a predominantly MSU army so getting a dice from morale is going to be even more unlikely than the 1/6 chance per morale test implies.
9 dice by turn 4 is much more likely than 12 by turn 3.
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
A.T. wrote: Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.
It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.
2 dice will be the more likely average. You're not going to be killing things in the combat phase. At least not with AoF having units.
Also, with the 4++ bubble likely dead you're looking at a predominantly MSU army so getting a dice from morale is going to be even more unlikely than the 1/6 chance per morale test implies.
9 dice by turn 4 is much more likely than 12 by turn 3.
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
Hopefully Orders and other stuff can net you more Md but yeah its a very limited resource.
Certainly gives a certain amount of reliability to Sisters. And something for your opponent to worry about.
After all, I'm sure we've all had moments of 'well, they'll need to hit, wound and do max damage' calculations going on, and chosen to risk it.
Now? There's a fair chance you cannot risk it.
Though I'd want to know the full range of options where they can be used to get a proper idea of just how useful they may or may not be. And whether I can expend multiples on a single chain of actions (for instance, guaranteeing a hit, a wound and max damage for the same shot), or if I can only use one per phase etc.
If the former, that's really, really nasty, and quite potentially game winning if you can get enough good rolls in the hole.
I see they also get 'Keeping The Faith' as their Doctrinal equivalent. The two shown are a mixed bag. 5+ to get the last laugh is a nice freebie. 6 to hit generating an additional hit in melee? Not bad, but I question its effectiveness in a predominantly shooty army. But I daresay wiser heads than my own might argue it's value precisely because they're normally shooty oriented.
Lots have said that the morale trigger for miracle dice isn't great because of MSU.
Ever think of not running MSU? I mean, now that there's another reason not to? (Besides camping 20 Sacred rose sisters on an objective with two Hopitalers and just living FOREVER).
Also, I'll be fielding 3 canonesses, 3 hospitallers, 3 dialogi, 3 priests, and 3 mistresses (though I suspect theyare now unit upgrades, not characters- same as Imagifiers became unit upgrades). Plus Celestine, Jacobus and Taddeus. Fifteen to eighteen dice worth of martyrdom.
von Hohenstein wrote: Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
You generate a Miracle Die at the end of EACH PHASE in which one or more prerequisites from the list was met. Suppose you destroyed any number of enemy units during your Shooting Phase - that's 1. You destroy another in your Fight Phase. That's 2. Suppose you took some cadulaties from Overwatch and a vehicle explosion. One of those rolls is a 1. That's 3. Without factoring any potential Miracle Dice during the opponent's turn, I have already generated 4 in a single battle round.
von Hohenstein wrote: Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
One dice per phase though. Shoot something dead, one dice. Then kill something in assault with repenetia or Celestine, another dice. During your opponent's turn, deny a power and get another one. Four per battle-round doesn't seem impossible.
100% there will be a stratagem for when you generate a Miracle die you roll two and choose which one you want and a strat to generate and extra d3 before game.
I like that they have to be earned instead of just immediately given like Tzeentch in AoS. With turn #1 in W40K being such an incredible advantage, having immediate access to a pool of Miracle Dice might be a little over the top.
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
It's one per turn base, and the others trigger at the end of each phase.
I'd also be extremely surprised if there weren't extra ways to generate the dice given that in the beta codex there were three orders, two strategems, a warlord trait, and a relic that all affected AoF. Plus the Dialogous and the Simulacrum Imperialis.
I do like the Miracle Dice, barring the name! They're a rule that promotes strategic resource allocation, which is the kind of tactical thing I love. Also can mess with your opponent's thinking, which is potentially invaluable... if you can build up a critical amount of dice. Do you charge, knowing that I've got enough 4s stored for my Cannoness to make all her saves? Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.
I'm certainly tempted to take more meltas now that I can ensure a modicum of reliability.
The key is going to be how much support they get from the rest of the codex; I'm particularly keen to see what they do with the Order Convictions. Also to see if they work on vehicles.
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
Do you charge.
I wonder how this will work with 2d6 rolls. I suppose this relates back to if you have to choose to use the miracle before or after the roll. The article implied after you roll as it stated you can either reroll or use a miracle.
In which case if you charge and roll a 6 and a 1 can you just substitute the 1 for a higher number or do you have to sub in two dice? If its only one dice that seems odd given that if you reroll you have to reroll both dice. It would make Sisters charges VERY reliable.
Sim-Life wrote: In which case if you charge and roll a 6 and a 1 can you just substitute the 1 for a higher number or do you have to sub in two dice? If its only one dice that seems odd given that if you reroll you have to reroll both dice. It would make Sisters charges VERY reliable.
It looks more like if you have to make a charge, you can sub in one or two dice from your pool and then roll any remaining dice.
So for instance if you have an 8" charge and a single miracle dice of 6 you can use it, and then you only need to roll 2+ on your remaining dice.
Ordana wrote: Only Sisters appear to be able to gain them (since all methods require the Acts of Faith ability) and there is no mention of how to spend them. So how can you say there is no tie in to Sisters?
Its easy to assume only units with the Acts of Faith ability can spend Miracle Dice.
It's easy to assume, but once they're acquired (from units with acts of faith) they simply go into a pool, there is no indication of any limitation in how those dice are used.
I suspect that's probably correct, but this is GW, and honestly, given everything lately, I tend to assume the worst.
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
It's one per turn base, and the others trigger at the end of each phase.
I'd also be extremely surprised if there weren't extra ways to generate the dice given that in the beta codex there were three orders, two strategems, a warlord trait, and a relic that all affected AoF. Plus the Dialogous and the Simulacrum Imperialis.
I do like the Miracle Dice, barring the name! They're a rule that promotes strategic resource allocation, which is the kind of tactical thing I love. Also can mess with your opponent's thinking, which is potentially invaluable... if you can build up a critical amount of dice. Do you charge, knowing that I've got enough 4s stored for my Cannoness to make all her saves? Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.
I'm certainly tempted to take more meltas now that I can ensure a modicum of reliability.
The key is going to be how much support they get from the rest of the codex; I'm particularly keen to see what they do with the Order Convictions. Also to see if they work on vehicles.
This is exactly the correct thinking. If it's the two dice per turn you're likely to get plus they don't work on vehicles, it'll be mediocre at best. If it's 2+ 1 for a WT plus 1 from a relic plus one for a character plus one for a chapter tactic and they work on vehicles they could be QUITE strong.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.
Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.
I think most units trying to charge would happily take a melta hit in overwatch. Tanks have too many wounds and just exist for interference in melee, and infantry lose a whole 1 out of 10 guys to it.
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.
It's one per turn base, and the others trigger at the end of each phase.
I'd also be extremely surprised if there weren't extra ways to generate the dice given that in the beta codex there were three orders, two strategems, a warlord trait, and a relic that all affected AoF. Plus the Dialogous and the Simulacrum Imperialis.
I do like the Miracle Dice, barring the name! They're a rule that promotes strategic resource allocation, which is the kind of tactical thing I love. Also can mess with your opponent's thinking, which is potentially invaluable... if you can build up a critical amount of dice. Do you charge, knowing that I've got enough 4s stored for my Cannoness to make all her saves? Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.
I'm certainly tempted to take more meltas now that I can ensure a modicum of reliability.
The key is going to be how much support they get from the rest of the codex; I'm particularly keen to see what they do with the Order Convictions. Also to see if they work on vehicles.
I'm hoping the convictions don't lean into this a ton and stick with unit buffs like everybody else's. Bloody Rose is a flat awesome across the board. Argent Shroud is effectively defunct because it basically doesn't give a benefit. Even +1 Miracle Dice would be like giving one unit in your army less than half of Salamanders or Bad Moons; so much drastically worse than something like +1S +1A that benefits everybody in your army consistently.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Certainly gives a certain amount of reliability to Sisters. And something for your opponent to worry about.
After all, I'm sure we've all had moments of 'well, they'll need to hit, wound and do max damage' calculations going on, and chosen to risk it.
Now? There's a fair chance you cannot risk it.
Though I'd want to know the full range of options where they can be used to get a proper idea of just how useful they may or may not be. And whether I can expend multiples on a single chain of actions (for instance, guaranteeing a hit, a wound and max damage for the same shot), or if I can only use one per phase etc.
If the former, that's really, really nasty, and quite potentially game winning if you can get enough good rolls in the hole.
I see they also get 'Keeping The Faith' as their Doctrinal equivalent. The two shown are a mixed bag. 5+ to get the last laugh is a nice freebie. 6 to hit generating an additional hit in melee? Not bad, but I question its effectiveness in a predominantly shooty army. But I daresay wiser heads than my own might argue it's value precisely because they're normally shooty oriented.
I'm looking forward to Death to the False Everything!. I currently run my sisters in assault pretty often, given the availability of Bloody Rose doctrine, the whole thing about effective weapon range being 12", and the high speed of Dominions and Seraphim with over-watch absorbing transports.
I'm hoping that whatever Divine Guidance turns into turns out to be good.
Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.
That is a wicked psychological weapon to have in one's pocket.
nah that is easy countered. If you know opponent can take you down, in match or in a game, with a combo of some sorts, you just play ignoring it, as over analyzing loses you more matchs on avarge.
I think most units trying to charge would happily take a melta hit in overwatch
who knows, maybe sisters have some sort of salamander light flamer rules. For example if they can double the number of flamer hits, or you have some really good buffs to flamers, not everyone is going to be happy about eating a +4/+5 wounding flamer hiting you at ap 3 for 2W.
That's actually not true, all doctrines a limited to certain weapon types and you have to switch through them. It just happens that the IH doctrine is linked to the one you start with.
Strange arugment IMO, because both RG and IH, or IF do run the weapons that work best with their doctrins. RG will run sniper bolters, eliminators . IF have a ton hvy bolters etc
Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.
That is a wicked psychological weapon to have in one's pocket.
nah that is easy countered. If you know opponent can take you down, in match or in a game, with a combo of some sorts, you just play ignoring it, as over analyzing loses you more matchs on avarge.
I think most units trying to charge would happily take a melta hit in overwatch
who knows, maybe sisters have some sort of salamander light flamer rules. For example if they can double the number of flamer hits, or you have some really good buffs to flamers, not everyone is going to be happy about eating a +4/+5 wounding flamer hiting you at ap 3 for 2W.
That's actually not true, all doctrines a limited to certain weapon types and you have to switch through them. It just happens that the IH doctrine is linked to the one you start with.
Strange arugment IMO, because both RG and IH, or IF do run the weapons that work best with their doctrins. RG will run sniper bolters, eliminators . IF have a ton hvy bolters etc
Can't ignore it if you need that charge to win the game. It also tilts statistical odds enough to be possible but much riskier, example: Your daemon prince charges my cannoness, 3 wounds with his 2 damage weapon will kill her, you have 8 attacks 2s rerolling and 2s due to buffs. Your opponent has 2 4s in his pocket. Your opponent now only needs to make 3 saves on 7 wounds instead of 5.
It means you want to be rolling Moral for every unit that had a casualty, even if there is no possibility of failing because a 1 means you get a Dice (once per turn, no matter how many 1's you roll)
I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
For the most part yes. You don't play GW games for accurate battle simulators, most people play them to have fun and see some cool stories unfold on the table. These people don't post on Dakka.
mostly because having to keep track of the roles adds another thing to watch during battle. I definitely like it more than the last act of faith one, which since i often roll low could easily spend points to just fizzle.
What'll really show it is how well the army and the strategems pan out. if for example there's a way to manipulate the miracle dice roll itself, then i can see it being even more useful. even low rolls depending on certain situations can be useful, like the exact hit roll or even just removing the risk of a plasma shot, or the mentioned morale stuff if that happens to come up.
Ideally there will be some strategems allowing you to discard the miracle dice for effects- not to many id hope, but in case your miracle rolls are large batches of 1's and 2's with nothing to spend them on, something to make them potentially more useful.
that said, you have to declare the use of these before you roll, yes? if you could replace the roll, they'd be even better, but that would have stepped on some serious toes, I'm sure.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
For the most part yes. You don't play GW games for accurate battle simulators, most people play them to have fun and see some cool stories unfold on the table. These people don't post on Dakka.
How exactly is having fun and seeing cool stories unfold at odds with tactical gameplay?
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
affecting proability is, assuming you do it right (GW doesn't) how you maximize player agency.
Imagine if you would a game where you can choose to go at standard speed or max speed. every unit has a differant speed, and there is a balance between speed, weapons and armor. if you chosoe to walk you receive a 1 penalty to your rolls. if you choose to run a 2 penalty, however your exact speed will inflict a differant peantly on your opponent, almost always higher. in addition weapons have differing range envelopes, that impact the penalties or positives to hit etc. and of course terrain can impact this as well. suddenly you as a player have signfcigent agency because how you move, where you move etc can have a real impact on your chances to hit, etc.
meanwhile 40k, it's just blanket bonuses and penalties, beyond standing in cover offering some minor bonuses there's not much point to manuvering, save maybe moving into rapid fire range.
so the problem isn't impacting proabilities, it's that GW doesn't really fold that kind of stuff deep into the game. at least with 40k (elements of this actually are, IIRC in adaptus titanicus)
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
Because the base framework remains roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves. GW's special rules predominantly rely on bonuses or penalties to those three things. SRs rarely give a unit the option to take a special action outside of those things nor is there a suppression system, overall very little to consider or choices to make. Sure, you need to choose when best to use that Miracle Die of a 6, but it's still only modifying a hit roll, damage roll, or save roll. The system is so... linear and repetitive.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
Because the base framework remains roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves. GW's special rules predominantly rely on bonuses or penalties to those three things. SRs rarely give a unit the option to take a special action outside of those things nor is there a suppression system, overall very little to consider or choices to make. Sure, you need to choose when best to use that Miracle Die of a 6, but it's still only modifying a hit roll, damage roll, or save roll. The system is so... linear and repetitive.
I actually think this system is really good because it improves player agency and controls probability in a way that is wholly empowering the player.
Space abilities that do something cool on a random roll are pretty common, this reduces overall variance in the army and give more control to the player. It's like the opposite of what you're complaining about.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
Because the base framework remains roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves. GW's special rules predominantly rely on bonuses or penalties to those three things. SRs rarely give a unit the option to take a special action outside of those things nor is there a suppression system, overall very little to consider or choices to make. Sure, you need to choose when best to use that Miracle Die of a 6, but it's still only modifying a hit roll, damage roll, or save roll. The system is so... linear and repetitive.
We don't know if it only applies to hits, saves and damage. It could also be charges, advances, fall back rolls against units that require them, number of randomly determined shots [Makes flamers WAY deadly- ditto exorcists]; we also don't know that there aren't abilities contingent upon using a miracle die of a given value.
I see your point generally, but we can't look at this mechanic through that lens before we see the dex, because we just don't have all the information yet. For all we know, this could be one of those rules that breaks the pattern.
I like the idea of the miracle dice, being able to tweak crucial rolls, and know what you're tweaking them to, is a big deal. It could also make the Shield of Faith psychic denial a lot more useful despite only being a D6, as you could bank a 6 for that (assuming you can use the die on anything you want). If miracle dice are just hits/wounds/save though then that's going to diminish the appeal considerably.
However I'm not so sure how I feel about Acts of Faith being boiled down into these passive Sacred Rites. I actually really liked the system in Index: Imperium 2, because it's active and flexible, and you can gain more acts by purchasing more Imagifiers (at the risk of them being sniped), my only problem with it is that it being random means it's unreliable, even if you do everything right. But otherwise it feels lot more like a system that can represent waning faith as you lose Imagifiers, supplemented by the stratagem (Martyrdom? I forget) to trigger acts on character deaths.
As far as the passive effects go, we really need to see more of them, but of the two they've shown Spirit of the Martyr seems a lot better than the Passion, as the former applies to both shooting and melee, and lets you still make a third of your attacks on lost models which on a Toughness 3 army in an anti-marine meta you're going to be losing models quite a bit. Whereas the Passion is melee only, and I'm not sure how good the extra hits are if you're so likely to lose models before they get a chance to attack in the first place.
It's going to depend on what the rest of the rules look like I guess, maybe some rites will combine well with order-specific bonus (if we're still getting those?) or can mini-detachments can be built to take advantage of them better (e.g- repentia and flagellants/penitent engines if they get the rites too, since they can only benefit from Spirit of the Martyr in melee range anyway)?
So yeah, mixed feelings; I think on balance given that GW only seems to be able to do either random crap or persistent effects, it's better to get the latter, especially with a mechanic that can actually be used to reduce randomness, but I can't help but feel like the index system was very characterful, it just need to have the randomness removed from it (and be costed accordingly).
Excited by the new models though; probably won't get the army box, as I already have more basic squads, seraphim, acro-flagellants and penitent engines than I should ever need, I'm waiting more for the new tanks and heroes.
Karol wrote: Isn't the mechanic very dependand on having some big or swingy weapon though? getting a roll you want is great, and SoB will for sure have more ways to get thos miricle points. But they don't seem to have something like a castellan or a jump hammer dude to use it in larger games. In smaller ones it could be very devastating, but at 2000pts it doesn't really give much, comparing to re-rolling all 1s and being considered stationary after move.
Melta, the missile launcher vehicle. Do the sisters have lots of high flat damage weapons to make a punch on vehicles? Don't remember them having abundance of D2 weapons either. Most of anti tanks seems to have come from melta's(d6 damage) or the missile launcher vehicle firing d6 shots. With d6 damage to boot.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
Others have already talked about how this mechanic actually increases player agency by giving the player the choice when and how he wants to spend these dice so I'll just add this.
Tournament lists are often designed to minimise randomness and high variance. Large amounts of attacks to get closer to statistical averages. re-rolls. Back in the days of WHFB maximising combat bonuses so they actually attacks mattered less was a big thing.
If your going to go undefeated against top players 5-6 games in a row you want consistency.
A mechanic such as this where you can 'force' a crucial die roll fits right into that and is pretty strong (tho Sisters will need more to be able to compete).
PenitentJake wrote: ...number of randomly determined shots [Makes flamers WAY deadly- ditto exorcists]
5 or 6 hits on a single flamer every other turn is probably not the way to go unless the target absolutely has to die and the flamer is all you've got. High rolls are going to be most useful for things like post-save damage on D6 weapons and ensuring critical charges. Statistically only a handful of 6s per game so make them count.
As expected, we are getting a lot of miracle shenanigans.
I think it's more interesting to note that the Argent Shroud and Martyred Lady were re-worked. Argent Shroud looks like they have a solid trait. Martyred Lady is a weird trait.
Also, 4++ to nearby infantry looks really good. That said, this book probably went to print before the Iron Hands debacle, so the fact that this one is locked to infantry makes me disappointed with GW and the SM Supplements, since it should have been obvious extending it to vehicles would be problematic.
I don't really like this rule. Having loads of preemptive "Command Reroll" Stratagems is not that interesting of a mechanic I think.
But what I find worse is, that our army bonus is so random. Everyone here seems to assume you only get high rolls into the miracle pool. Those 6s for overwatch, damage or Exorcists are only coming into the pool at a rate of 1/6. What are we to do with all those 2/3/4? Morale is the only application that comes into my mind and that never plays a role in my games.
I can see the bonus from miracle dice being completely obsolete in some games where you only get a couple of low rolls into your pool.
The randomness of the bonus also reminds me more about chaos than something the emperor might grant.
Pro_b0 wrote: I don't really like this rule. Having loads of preemptive "Command Reroll" Stratagems is not that interesting of a mechanic I think.
But what I find worse is, that our army bonus is so random. Everyone here seems to assume you only get high rolls into the miracle pool. Those 6s for overwatch, damage or Exorcists are only coming into the pool at a rate of 1/6. What are we to do with all those 2/3/4? Morale is the only application that comes into my mind and that never plays a role in my games.
I can see the bonus from miracle dice being completely obsolete in some games where you only get a couple of low rolls into your pool.
The randomness of the bonus also reminds me more about chaos than something the emperor might grant.
Or am I missing something?
You never wound stuff on 4+? 3+? Ever heard phrase "anything but 1"? Never failed that crucial 4-5" charge?
Pro_b0 wrote: I don't really like this rule. Having loads of preemptive "Command Reroll" Stratagems is not that interesting of a mechanic I think.
But what I find worse is, that our army bonus is so random. Everyone here seems to assume you only get high rolls into the miracle pool. Those 6s for overwatch, damage or Exorcists are only coming into the pool at a rate of 1/6. What are we to do with all those 2/3/4? Morale is the only application that comes into my mind and that never plays a role in my games.
I can see the bonus from miracle dice being completely obsolete in some games where you only get a couple of low rolls into your pool.
The randomness of the bonus also reminds me more about chaos than something the emperor might grant.
Or am I missing something?
A vehicle explodes that you really don't want to explode could be another use.
"You never wound stuff on 4+? 3+? Ever heard phrase "anything but 1"? Never failed that crucial 4-5" charge?"
"A vehicle explodes that you really don't want to explode could be another use."
Sorry I couldn't find the quote button.
Both of those examples don't really convince me, because it means substituting rolls with my army bonus that I will make in all likelihood.
From a power-perspective: I can do that much more efficiently with a command reroll, because I only need to pay it if I actually fail those rolls.
From a fluff-perspective: making a 4 or 5 '' charge or not rolling a one to wound is not very miraculous or inspiring.
There would need to be more rolls, where it is great if you roll lower rather than higher, like morale. But there are not many of those or if there are they are unimportant.
4+ is just 50-50. "all likelyhood" as if. 4+ you have exact same chance to succeed as fail. And games are often decided by few keyrolls succeeding or failing.
Command reroll isn't as quaranteed though. Need that 4+ to succeed and fail? Well with command reroll you get 50% odd for your second attempt. Compare that to 100% quarantee.
The main draw that you oversee at the moment is consistency.
You are able to make something just work instead of relying on a dice roll.
I don't understand your argument about command rerolls. You don't directly pay for Miracle dice. They are a bonus that your army get for free. For a command reroll you always have to pay a command point.
Your fluff perspective is a bit meta-gamey. The miracle is not making any charge or armor save or hit. It is consistently making that charge which led to killing the enemy leader, your HQ consistently surviving being shot at or in melee against all odds and so on.
They are an interesting rule tempered by the cost and power of the sisters themselves, the scale of the game, and the bias towards certain results being useful.
In another smaller scale game the system could work as a core resource mechanic.
For sisters as it stands it means that a number of times each game you'll be more likely to get the result you want, be it a set number of wounds from your last exocist missile to just finish off an important target, or not having to gamble on an assassin shooting your only psychic defense off the board in the first turn, or making some low odds charge with repentia. They won't turn a weak army into a strong army, but they might make an opponent second guess themselves.
Pro_b0 wrote: "You never wound stuff on 4+? 3+? Ever heard phrase "anything but 1"? Never failed that crucial 4-5" charge?"
"A vehicle explodes that you really don't want to explode could be another use."
Sorry I couldn't find the quote button.
Both of those examples don't really convince me, because it means substituting rolls with my army bonus that I will make in all likelihood.
From a power-perspective: I can do that much more efficiently with a command reroll, because I only need to pay it if I actually fail those rolls.
From a fluff-perspective: making a 4 or 5 '' charge or not rolling a one to wound is not very miraculous or inspiring.
There would need to be more rolls, where it is great if you roll lower rather than higher, like morale. But there are not many of those or if there are they are unimportant.
Quote button is on the top right of the post you wish to quote.
I get where you're coming from, but the systems are complimentary. A big part of games where you have a limited reroll resource is determining when you would be willing to use that reroll before you actually make the roll. This is vital in a system like Blood Bowl where your turn ends if you fail a roll, but it's also very good in 40k-style systems.
If you are willing to use a CP reroll on something, then it follows that you should also be willing to use a reroll that is guaranteed to pass. This is even more relevant when you have a choice between a non-renewable resource with multiple possible applications (CP) and a renewable resource with a more limited scope (Faith).
It doesn't matter how likely any dice roll is to succeed. Even a 2+ with a reroll is lower probability than absolute certainty.
The real basis of your argument seems to boil down to "This isn't good enough for me" or maybe "I wanted something different and better." Why do I say this? Because Miracle dice are FREE. They aren't "I choose miracle dice over X". Now, that said, Okay, I accept you wanted something better (or perhaps simply loved the current rules).
As to a miracle dice pool; The 2 is tougher, mostly I see a guaranteed 2 damage roll (can it replace a d3? who knows how that will work). That 3 or 4 is an absolutely valuable resource since you can build in 3++ saves for your army. Knowing my cannoness is going to survive to swing can save me 2 CP on an interrupt for example. Hitting with that Multi-melta automatically is worth something. Your argument on "I'm going to make it anyway or likely" is flawed because as said earlier, no, you won't make it X% of the time.
I like the mechanic and possibilities. It isn't perfect, it isn't a guaranteed win (and please, can the OP/garbage people go away), it is a mechanic we shall try and work with. As a sister's player I have a whole host of new choices to make with them. Some simple and obvious, some not so much. Do I burn that 5 early on exorcist shots? or save it for damage, or a charge? That 3 could mean my hunter killer missile auto hits, and those points aren't wasted. But wait, it could also mean it auto wounds, or automatically finishes the last 3 wounds on that knight... I look forward to making the right, and wrong decisions, because that is the joy in this game, my brain working.
Here is a strange and niche use; I tied a game in an ITC because the rules involved players moving Objectives. My opponent won a key roll off on the last turn and moved it away from my models to his and gained a 2 point swing for a tie (and his roll was a 3...darn dice). I know we aren't sure if miracle dice can be used for any roll or what, but I could have used it there! The possibilities are really open-ended right now.
I do wonder in the second preview about the chapter traits we didn't see, because currently the one to gain miracle dice seems MASSIVE! The others are going to struggle to match up IMO.
edwardmyst wrote: The real basis of your argument seems to boil down to "This isn't good enough for me" or maybe "I wanted something different and better." Why do I say this? Because Miracle dice are FREE. They aren't "I choose miracle dice over X". Now, that said, Okay, I accept you wanted something better (or perhaps simply loved the current rules).
As to a miracle dice pool; The 2 is tougher, mostly I see a guaranteed 2 damage roll (can it replace a d3? who knows how that will work). That 3 or 4 is an absolutely valuable resource since you can build in 3++ saves for your army. Knowing my cannoness is going to survive to swing can save me 2 CP on an interrupt for example. Hitting with that Multi-melta automatically is worth something. Your argument on "I'm going to make it anyway or likely" is flawed because as said earlier, no, you won't make it X% of the time.
I like the mechanic and possibilities. It isn't perfect, it isn't a guaranteed win (and please, can the OP/garbage people go away), it is a mechanic we shall try and work with. As a sister's player I have a whole host of new choices to make with them. Some simple and obvious, some not so much. Do I burn that 5 early on exorcist shots? or save it for damage, or a charge? That 3 could mean my hunter killer missile auto hits, and those points aren't wasted. But wait, it could also mean it auto wounds, or automatically finishes the last 3 wounds on that knight... I look forward to making the right, and wrong decisions, because that is the joy in this game, my brain working.
Here is a strange and niche use; I tied a game in an ITC because the rules involved players moving Objectives. My opponent won a key roll off on the last turn and moved it away from my models to his and gained a 2 point swing for a tie (and his roll was a 3...darn dice). I know we aren't sure if miracle dice can be used for any roll or what, but I could have used it there! The possibilities are really open-ended right now.
I do wonder in the second preview about the chapter traits we didn't see, because currently the one to gain miracle dice seems MASSIVE! The others are going to struggle to match up IMO.
We don't have weapons that do D3 damage, I think, so it's a moot point.
Also, I don't think checking for a guaranteed hit with a Multimelta is a good use either. It might be if you used it after you roll, but you use them before you roll. Then, one multimelta hit out of 4 isn't going to make a difference is just about anything, and a supported Ret squad has a 78% chance of hitting anyway, and it still has to wound. If you're going to spend it on a Multemelta, spend it on the wound roll which is 66%-50% chances, versus the hit roll which is 66% to 78% chances.
I also don't think Our Martyred Lady's trait is good at all. Getting +1 [+2 max] Miracle Dice per turn is the approximate equivalent of getting less than half of the Salamanders or Bad Moons trait on a single unit in your army, and your units have to be being quickly destroyed. It's not going to be powerful if you're winning, and that ones unit isn't going to turn the tide if you're losing. Now that we've actually appraised the value of the Miracle Dice part of the trait, the +1 to hit for units that have lost models doesn't work on Exorcists, and it requires your enemy to be cooperating by leaving your units alive but killing a small number from each. Even assuming they perfectly cooperate and you buy one extra model for rets and doms and they obligingly kill just that model and not the rest of the unit, is 10 points for 2+ BS actually worthwhile? Any special or heavy weapons bearers who die for the +1 BS are basically automatically not worth the cost.
I would absolutely not take a trait that's defunct when you're winning, does literally nothing if you get the first turn, and has a weak effect when you're losing. You might as well have not taken a trait. I think the previewed Argent Shroud trait is miles better than the Martyred Lady one, because improved mobility is generally useful. However, it's only half of Tallarn, which also lets tanks ignore the move-fire penalty in addition to infantry being able to advance and fire, which is disappointing because allowing Exorcists and Immolators with anything other than the Immolation Flamer to be mobile would have been a pretty solid option on its own and opened up some options to be potentially viable.
I do like this mechanic, because for once it's something designed to be planned around as opposed to a special rule being "roll a dice for something cool to happen!" That said, I don't think it's strong at all.
I think the relic to re-roll Miracle dice might be an auto-take relic, since you definitely want to secure the high rolls. If the Brazier is still a thing, and the Blade of Admonition are still things that sets up the three relics to take I think.
As a further note, you 100% could not have used a Miracle die for that rule. There's a list of rolls that it can be used on, and that roll comes from a mission packet and from a 3rd party one at that, so it wouldn't be on the list. In addition, my bet would be that it's only for rolls generated by Act of Faith units, but there's no guarantee there.
@ Katherine
Good points on not being able to use that roll. Really doubt it would have been possible, unless the rule says any roll...teeny chance of that (I do think at least it will have the Model with the AOF ability tacked on), but this is GW writing rules...(see the thread in you make the call about coherency and you can't ever move once out of it by more than movement ability).
We of course disagree on the power of Miracle Dice. Which is cool. It's what makes the game work, and the reason the same army doesn't actually win every battle or tournament despite claims to the contrary.
I want more dice in my pool because I see massive and varied uses for them, and do feel despite the buckets of dice, a few crucial roles decide most games (certainly in my tournament history).
As to comparing to the every unit rerolls to hit and wound traits, no argument on comparative value. It still amazes me that hasn't blown up as an issue, and people bother with others...I've always felt it the most unbalanced, and have used it myself.
As to not being a good use to auto hit something that hits on a 3+ or so? Well the argument that using it on the wound roll instead is valid. I guess either is the same risk of course. That's part of why I like the rule. Now I have this choice, and it is a choice...where do I risk the roll? First, second...whatever.
Besides...
I still think my immolators could use an auto hit chance with their twin melta...or an auto hit with my cannoness' inferno pistol when I need it most is a darn good use of a 2 from the pool. I seem to suck all the time. We of course have no idea what the new codex weapons and damage will do, but we might have some d3 damage weapons (I'm hoping the eviscerator for a character returns and works like a powerfist). As to the +1 to hit, again it amazes me how tables differ. I ALWAYS have units down models left on the table, because I generally play the two many units game (I also buy my doms with two extra wound models, but I do agree the times might be rare). But...most importantly you might be forgetting that +1 is to hit in melee, and losing a repentia to overwatch is a common occurance for me, so suddenly I'm back to hitting on 3+ with re-rolls (given current rules of course) and that was one of the additions I had in my mind.
edwardmyst wrote: @ Katherine
Good points on not being able to use that roll. Really doubt it would have been possible, unless the rule says any roll...teeny chance of that (I do think at least it will have the Model with the AOF ability tacked on), but this is GW writing rules...(see the thread in you make the call about coherency and you can't ever move once out of it by more than movement ability).
We of course disagree on the power of Miracle Dice. Which is cool. It's what makes the game work, and the reason the same army doesn't actually win every battle or tournament despite claims to the contrary.
I want more dice in my pool because I see massive and varied uses for them, and do feel despite the buckets of dice, a few crucial roles decide most games (certainly in my tournament history).
As to comparing to the every unit rerolls to hit and wound traits, no argument on comparative value. It still amazes me that hasn't blown up as an issue, and people bother with others...I've always felt it the most unbalanced, and have used it myself.
As to not being a good use to auto hit something that hits on a 3+ or so? Well the argument that using it on the wound roll instead is valid. I guess either is the same risk of course. That's part of why I like the rule. Now I have this choice, and it is a choice...where do I risk the roll? First, second...whatever.
Besides...
I still think my immolators could use an auto hit chance with their twin melta...or an auto hit with my cannoness' inferno pistol when I need it most is a darn good use of a 2 from the pool. I seem to suck all the time. We of course have no idea what the new codex weapons and damage will do, but we might have some d3 damage weapons (I'm hoping the eviscerator for a character returns and works like a powerfist). As to the +1 to hit, again it amazes me how tables differ. I ALWAYS have units down models left on the table, because I generally play the two many units game (I also buy my doms with two extra wound models, but I do agree the times might be rare). But...most importantly you might be forgetting that +1 is to hit in melee, and losing a repentia to overwatch is a common occurance for me, so suddenly I'm back to hitting on 3+ with re-rolls (given current rules of course) and that was one of the additions I had in my mind.
You lose out of Order of the Bloody Rose, and thus S8 Repentia.
I fell like it's a booby prize, because it doesn't trigger until after your unit has been dead. "You lost a couple of meltaguns! To make that sting less, your remaining 1 meltagunner now hits on 2's!" Even 20 points for +1BS isn't worth it for the unit. Also, my units tend not be be running around down exactly the one useless model I bought as padding, since the enemy was shooting at them to try to kill the meltaguns. And, of course, if you're playing MSU, you're going to get units wiped more easily than having exactly the value models left.
Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Sim-Life wrote: Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Squinting at the screen it looked like they had AOF and SOF.
I transcribed quite a bit
Spoiler:
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
Sim-Life wrote: Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Squinting at the screen it looked like they had AOF and SOF.
I transcribed quite a bit
Spoiler:
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
Sounds a lot like there isn't some big army rule (ala doctrines) besides the miracle dice? The dice on their own are not good enough to make an army competitive unless they are undercosted for their raw stats.
Sim-Life wrote: Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Squinting at the screen it looked like they had AOF and SOF.
I transcribed quite a bit
[spoiler]Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
[/spoiler]
Sounds a lot like there isn't some big army rule (ala doctrines) besides the miracle dice? The dice on their own are not good enough to make an army competitive unless they are undercosted for their raw stats.
Mono-Sisters get Sacred Rites which act like mechanicus pslams except they last the whole battle instead of changing every turn and each order has their own traits.
Sim-Life wrote: Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Squinting at the screen it looked like they had AOF and SOF.
I transcribed quite a bit
Spoiler:
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
Sounds a lot like there isn't some big army rule (ala doctrines) besides the miracle dice? The dice on their own are not good enough to make an army competitive unless they are undercosted for their raw stats.
Sacred Rites are handy if all Ad Min - choose one or roll two
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Does not appear to be anythting else no. There does seem to be alotbuilt around this mechanism - abilities, relics strats and the like - I like the idea - need to see hwo it works on the table.
Regarding Order Traits, remember they're doled out by detachment, not army.
Which means that a patrol of OoOML feeds your pool, while a Bloody Rose Repentia Vanguard tears things up and your Sacred Rose Battalion holds the Objectives.
Or really any other combination.
My classics are all painted OoOML, and it's a fair number of models; I don't know if I'll use them side by side with the new plastics for reasons of scale.
Pre-order goes in today; T-14 and counting. Fourteen days until we unleash once more the Emperor's Holy Fire upon the enemies of the Imperium!
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
What? We've seen the whole codex. Using a miracle dice is an act of faith. The old acts of faith became Sacred Rites.
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
Nope - we have seen the Codex on the vid
AOF = 1 MD per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
What? We've seen the whole codex. Using a miracle dice is an act of faith. The old acts of faith became Sacred Rites.
Wrong
"These dice are kept to one side and accrued over the course of the battle as certain circumstances are met, and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith for which the Sisters of Battle are renowned. Here’s how you generate them."
Miracle dice do not replace existing Acts of Faith or the new Codex Acts of Faith (what we haven't seen yet but the description for Miracle Dice reveal two).
Ergo Miracle Dice have two functions
Function a) turning any dice into the value on the miracle dice.
Function b) Activating a Act of Faith (acts of faith won't generate miracle dice)
Sacred Rites are basically canticles of the Omnissiah, this is your "pure sisters of battle rule."
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
What? We've seen the whole codex. Using a miracle dice is an act of faith. The old acts of faith became Sacred Rites.
Wrong
"These dice are kept to one side and accrued over the course of the battle as certain circumstances are met, and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith for which the Sisters of Battle are renowned. Here’s how you generate them."
Miracle dice do not replace existing Acts of Faith or the new Codex Acts of Faith (what we haven't seen yet but the description for Miracle Dice reveal two).
Sacred Rites are basically canticles of the Omnissiah, this is your "pure sisters of battle rule."
Are you okay? Are you having a bad day or something?
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
Nope - we have seen the Codex on the vid
AOF = 1 MD per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
What what? You have to use them before the roll?
That is even worse. I was assuming you could use them after you rolled. But having to use them preemptively ugh, such a feels bad, makes it even worse that there is no other major mechanic supporting the army.
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
Nope - we have seen the Codex on the vid
AOF = 1 MD per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
What what? You have to use them before the roll?
That is even worse. I was assuming you could use them after you rolled. But having to use them preemptively ugh, such a feels bad, makes it even worse that there is no other major mechanic supporting the army.
I honestly think you're underestimating them. Theres a lot of things in the army built around them or thay give them or modify them.
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
ThatMG wrote: So base misinformation at the start. Miracle Dice are not Acts of Faith as the rules directly show you Acts of Faith still exist in the codex.
Miracle Dice are in addition to acts of faith. I expect acts of faith will be exactly like SM Chaplains/Dark Apostles. E.g. go off on a 3+.
Evidence: Miracle Dice preview
(There is an act of faith to help deny powers)
(There is an act of faith to help morale tests)
.
