Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Not seeing anything tying this mechanic specifically to Sisters, the ramifications of this within context of Imperial Soup is probably going to have unforeseen consequences.

Being able to guarantee a knight/vehicle explosion for example. Or using it on a Vindicare is another one. Lots of options for this the more you think about it.

Only Sisters appear to be able to gain them (since all methods require the Acts of Faith ability) and there is no mention of how to spend them. So how can you say there is no tie in to Sisters?

Its easy to assume only units with the Acts of Faith ability can spend Miracle Dice.

Still it is very situational. It is hard to compare it to something like the marine doctrins, that are just in effect all the time no matter what. I can imagine it being turn 2-3 the same knight charging in, but the SoB player only being able to generate 3 dice. Charge happens and canoness goes splat.
And yes I know there is multiple ways to get the points, and that there are probably going to be more for the various chapters or through relics. still it is a bit wonky. There is nothing wonky about a bunch of centurions droping 9" away from your army and shoting the living hell out of all characters in range.

Again not that swingy can't be good. But rules that depend on other rules or units to be good, are often very unflexible.
cawls wrath was a great weapon, still probably is, but it was linked to how good a castellan is. castellan stoped being good, and it stoped to matter how good the wrath is.

Not saying the rule is bad. I just don't like swingy stuff like that.

Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.


It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.

Speaking as a returning newcomer to the game....ive watched some Battle reports on you tube and loved the late drame of having to make rolls to win the game etc.

I cant speak for balance...but taking away the drama of dive rolls from potential gaming winning actions seems to lessen the game drama and excitement for me somewhat.

I love the idea of the rule! I play D&D and there is a similar mechanic for a certain wizard archetype and although you admittetly don't roll as many dice as in a standard 40k game, it still feels really nice to just have these dicerolls banked up for certain important rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it actually feels propper "divine intervention-y" Changing fate, so to say

Karol wrote:
Still it is very situational. It is hard to compare it to something like the marine doctrins, that are just in effect all the time no matter what.

That's actually not true, all doctrines a limited to certain weapon types and you have to switch through them. It just happens that the IH doctrine is linked to the one you start with.

I can imagine it being turn 2-3 the same knight charging in, but the SoB player only being able to generate 3 dice. Charge happens and canoness goes splat.
And yes I know there is multiple ways to get the points, and that there are probably going to be more for the various chapters or through relics. still it is a bit wonky. There is nothing wonky about a bunch of centurions droping 9" away from your army and shoting the living hell out of all characters in range.

Again not that swingy can't be good. But rules that depend on other rules or units to be good, are often very unflexible.
cawls wrath was a great weapon, still probably is, but it was linked to how good a castellan is. castellan stoped being good, and it stoped to matter how good the wrath is.

Not saying the rule is bad. I just don't like swingy stuff like that.

What you are describing is utility vs raw power.
These dice allow you to get the perfect die in the perfect situation, use them in the wrong situation and they do nothing. Having a guaranteed dice on a multi-melta might not be powerful in terms of the +1.5 damage done, but having a guaranteed kill on a chapter master who failed his safe is priceless.

I agree with you in general, but keep in mind that this could turn out very powerful if paired with rules that either generate extra dice or benefit massively from knowing what you are going to roll.

I also think that the main way to generate dice is to simply kill enemy units. Losing characters is unlikely to be something you want to happen, but is pretty likely as well. When I played against the beta dex last time, there were characters everywhere.
The last two are just nice to have - a sisters player should not expect to get any dice from them and be happy when it does happen.

Karol wrote:
Still it is very situational. It is hard to compare it to something like the marine doctrins, that are just in effect all the time no matter what. I can imagine it being turn 2-3 the same knight charging in, but the SoB player only being able to generate 3 dice. Charge happens and canoness goes splat.
And yes I know there is multiple ways to get the points, and that there are probably going to be more for the various chapters or through relics. still it is a bit wonky. There is nothing wonky about a bunch of centurions droping 9" away from your army and shoting the living hell out of all characters in range.

Again not that swingy can't be good. But rules that depend on other rules or units to be good, are often very unflexible.
cawls wrath was a great weapon, still probably is, but it was linked to how good a castellan is. castellan stoped being good, and it stoped to matter how good the wrath is.

Not saying the rule is bad. I just don't like swingy stuff like that.

Miracle dice are the Act of Faith replacement. Sisters get a doctrine equivalent in addition if they’re running monofaction.

A.T. wrote:
Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.


It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.

2 dice will be the more likely average. You're not going to be killing things in the combat phase. At least not with AoF having units.

Also, with the 4++ bubble likely dead you're looking at a predominantly MSU army so getting a dice from morale is going to be even more unlikely than the 1/6 chance per morale test implies.

9 dice by turn 4 is much more likely than 12 by turn 3.

I also don't count dice generated from dead characters simply because the loss of a character massively outweighs gaining a single paltry miracle dice.

ERJAK wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.


It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.

2 dice will be the more likely average. You're not going to be killing things in the combat phase. At least not with AoF having units.

Also, with the 4++ bubble likely dead you're looking at a predominantly MSU army so getting a dice from morale is going to be even more unlikely than the 1/6 chance per morale test implies.

9 dice by turn 4 is much more likely than 12 by turn 3.

Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

 von Hohenstein wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Early game it's currently looking at around 3 points per turn plus a couple for casualties, etc. So 12 dice through three turns - averaging a pair of 6s, pair of 5s, etc, weighted towards the later turns with only one or two dice available off the bat.


It is all still dependent on the sisters dex itself. The beta dex, even cheesing out stratagems to get +1 to hit or respawning models on a dozen units at a time, was no match at all for stronger books. Trading that cheese out for a half dozen guaranteed 4-6s on saves or melta gun damage won't change that in of itself.

2 dice will be the more likely average. You're not going to be killing things in the combat phase. At least not with AoF having units.

Also, with the 4++ bubble likely dead you're looking at a predominantly MSU army so getting a dice from morale is going to be even more unlikely than the 1/6 chance per morale test implies.

9 dice by turn 4 is much more likely than 12 by turn 3.

Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

Hopefully Orders and other stuff can net you more Md but yeah its a very limited resource.

Certainly gives a certain amount of reliability to Sisters. And something for your opponent to worry about.

After all, I'm sure we've all had moments of 'well, they'll need to hit, wound and do max damage' calculations going on, and chosen to risk it.

Now? There's a fair chance you cannot risk it.

Though I'd want to know the full range of options where they can be used to get a proper idea of just how useful they may or may not be. And whether I can expend multiples on a single chain of actions (for instance, guaranteeing a hit, a wound and max damage for the same shot), or if I can only use one per phase etc.

If the former, that's really, really nasty, and quite potentially game winning if you can get enough good rolls in the hole.

I see they also get 'Keeping The Faith' as their Doctrinal equivalent. The two shown are a mixed bag. 5+ to get the last laugh is a nice freebie. 6 to hit generating an additional hit in melee? Not bad, but I question its effectiveness in a predominantly shooty army. But I daresay wiser heads than my own might argue it's value precisely because they're normally shooty oriented.

Lots have said that the morale trigger for miracle dice isn't great because of MSU.

Ever think of not running MSU? I mean, now that there's another reason not to? (Besides camping 20 Sacred rose sisters on an objective with two Hopitalers and just living FOREVER).

Also, I'll be fielding 3 canonesses, 3 hospitallers, 3 dialogi, 3 priests, and 3 mistresses (though I suspect theyare now unit upgrades, not characters- same as Imagifiers became unit upgrades). Plus Celestine, Jacobus and Taddeus. Fifteen to eighteen dice worth of martyrdom.

Bring it witches!

 von Hohenstein wrote:
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

You generate a Miracle Die at the end of EACH PHASE in which one or more prerequisites from the list was met. Suppose you destroyed any number of enemy units during your Shooting Phase - that's 1. You destroy another in your Fight Phase. That's 2. Suppose you took some cadulaties from Overwatch and a vehicle explosion. One of those rolls is a 1. That's 3. Without factoring any potential Miracle Dice during the opponent's turn, I have already generated 4 in a single battle round.

Do you even read the rules?

 von Hohenstein wrote:
Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

One dice per phase though. Shoot something dead, one dice. Then kill something in assault with repenetia or Celestine, another dice. During your opponent's turn, deny a power and get another one. Four per battle-round doesn't seem impossible.

100% there will be a stratagem for when you generate a Miracle die you roll two and choose which one you want and a strat to generate and extra d3 before game.

This mechanic seems massively enjoyable.

I like that they have to be earned instead of just immediately given like Tzeentch in AoS. With turn #1 in W40K being such an incredible advantage, having immediate access to a pool of Miracle Dice might be a little over the top.

 von Hohenstein wrote:

Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

It's one per turn base, and the others trigger at the end of each phase.

I'd also be extremely surprised if there weren't extra ways to generate the dice given that in the beta codex there were three orders, two strategems, a warlord trait, and a relic that all affected AoF. Plus the Dialogous and the Simulacrum Imperialis.

I do like the Miracle Dice, barring the name! They're a rule that promotes strategic resource allocation, which is the kind of tactical thing I love. Also can mess with your opponent's thinking, which is potentially invaluable... if you can build up a critical amount of dice. Do you charge, knowing that I've got enough 4s stored for my Cannoness to make all her saves? Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.

I'm certainly tempted to take more meltas now that I can ensure a modicum of reliability.

The key is going to be how much support they get from the rest of the codex; I'm particularly keen to see what they do with the Order Convictions. Also to see if they work on vehicles.

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:

 von Hohenstein wrote:

Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

Do you charge.

I wonder how this will work with 2d6 rolls. I suppose this relates back to if you have to choose to use the miracle before or after the roll. The article implied after you roll as it stated you can either reroll or use a miracle.

In which case if you charge and roll a 6 and a 1 can you just substitute the 1 for a higher number or do you have to sub in two dice? If its only one dice that seems odd given that if you reroll you have to reroll both dice. It would make Sisters charges VERY reliable.

 Sim-Life wrote:
In which case if you charge and roll a 6 and a 1 can you just substitute the 1 for a higher number or do you have to sub in two dice? If its only one dice that seems odd given that if you reroll you have to reroll both dice. It would make Sisters charges VERY reliable.

It looks more like if you have to make a charge, you can sub in one or two dice from your pool and then roll any remaining dice.

So for instance if you have an 8" charge and a single miracle dice of 6 you can use it, and then you only need to roll 2+ on your remaining dice.

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:
Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.

Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.

 Jidmah wrote:

Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.

That is a wicked psychological weapon to have in one's pocket.

 Ordana wrote:
Only Sisters appear to be able to gain them (since all methods require the Acts of Faith ability) and there is no mention of how to spend them. So how can you say there is no tie in to Sisters?

Its easy to assume only units with the Acts of Faith ability can spend Miracle Dice.

It's easy to assume, but once they're acquired (from units with acts of faith) they simply go into a pool, there is no indication of any limitation in how those dice are used.

I suspect that's probably correct, but this is GW, and honestly, given everything lately, I tend to assume the worst.

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:

 von Hohenstein wrote:

Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

It's one per turn base, and the others trigger at the end of each phase.

I'd also be extremely surprised if there weren't extra ways to generate the dice given that in the beta codex there were three orders, two strategems, a warlord trait, and a relic that all affected AoF. Plus the Dialogous and the Simulacrum Imperialis.

I do like the Miracle Dice, barring the name! They're a rule that promotes strategic resource allocation, which is the kind of tactical thing I love. Also can mess with your opponent's thinking, which is potentially invaluable... if you can build up a critical amount of dice. Do you charge, knowing that I've got enough 4s stored for my Cannoness to make all her saves? Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.

I'm certainly tempted to take more meltas now that I can ensure a modicum of reliability.

The key is going to be how much support they get from the rest of the codex; I'm particularly keen to see what they do with the Order Convictions. Also to see if they work on vehicles.

This is exactly the correct thinking. If it's the two dice per turn you're likely to get plus they don't work on vehicles, it'll be mediocre at best. If it's 2+ 1 for a WT plus 1 from a relic plus one for a character plus one for a chapter tactic and they work on vehicles they could be QUITE strong.

It's just a numbers game.

10 Cents says we have players claiming this is breaking the game before 2020.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
10 Cents says we have players claiming this is breaking the game before 2020.

We did with the Storm Bolter start and then they read the Beta dex and won;t ok yeah thats pretty bad

Jidmah wrote:

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:
Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.

Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.

I think most units trying to charge would happily take a melta hit in overwatch. Tanks have too many wounds and just exist for interference in melee, and infantry lose a whole 1 out of 10 guys to it.

Hoc Est Bellum wrote:

 von Hohenstein wrote:

Do you guys even read the rules? It`s 1 (one) dice at the start of the turn and 1 (one) dice if you managed to do something from the list. Even if you kill 20 units and pass 100 leadership tests - you will only get 1 (one) extra dice. So if you spend no dice at all you are looking at no more than 6 dice by the END of turn 3.

It's one per turn base, and the others trigger at the end of each phase.

I'd also be extremely surprised if there weren't extra ways to generate the dice given that in the beta codex there were three orders, two strategems, a warlord trait, and a relic that all affected AoF. Plus the Dialogous and the Simulacrum Imperialis.

I do like the Miracle Dice, barring the name! They're a rule that promotes strategic resource allocation, which is the kind of tactical thing I love. Also can mess with your opponent's thinking, which is potentially invaluable... if you can build up a critical amount of dice. Do you charge, knowing that I've got enough 4s stored for my Cannoness to make all her saves? Or that I can say with 100% certainty that a melta will hit on Overwatch.

I'm certainly tempted to take more meltas now that I can ensure a modicum of reliability.

The key is going to be how much support they get from the rest of the codex; I'm particularly keen to see what they do with the Order Convictions. Also to see if they work on vehicles.

I'm hoping the convictions don't lean into this a ton and stick with unit buffs like everybody else's. Bloody Rose is a flat awesome across the board. Argent Shroud is effectively defunct because it basically doesn't give a benefit. Even +1 Miracle Dice would be like giving one unit in your army less than half of Salamanders or Bad Moons; so much drastically worse than something like +1S +1A that benefits everybody in your army consistently.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Certainly gives a certain amount of reliability to Sisters. And something for your opponent to worry about.

After all, I'm sure we've all had moments of 'well, they'll need to hit, wound and do max damage' calculations going on, and chosen to risk it.

Now? There's a fair chance you cannot risk it.

Though I'd want to know the full range of options where they can be used to get a proper idea of just how useful they may or may not be. And whether I can expend multiples on a single chain of actions (for instance, guaranteeing a hit, a wound and max damage for the same shot), or if I can only use one per phase etc.

If the former, that's really, really nasty, and quite potentially game winning if you can get enough good rolls in the hole.

I see they also get 'Keeping The Faith' as their Doctrinal equivalent. The two shown are a mixed bag. 5+ to get the last laugh is a nice freebie. 6 to hit generating an additional hit in melee? Not bad, but I question its effectiveness in a predominantly shooty army. But I daresay wiser heads than my own might argue it's value precisely because they're normally shooty oriented.

I'm looking forward to Death to the False Everything!. I currently run my sisters in assault pretty often, given the availability of Bloody Rose doctrine, the whole thing about effective weapon range being 12", and the high speed of Dominions and Seraphim with over-watch absorbing transports.

I'm hoping that whatever Divine Guidance turns into turns out to be good.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.

That is a wicked psychological weapon to have in one's pocket.

nah that is easy countered. If you know opponent can take you down, in match or in a game, with a combo of some sorts, you just play ignoring it, as over analyzing loses you more matchs on avarge.

I think most units trying to charge would happily take a melta hit in overwatch

who knows, maybe sisters have some sort of salamander light flamer rules. For example if they can double the number of flamer hits, or you have some really good buffs to flamers, not everyone is going to be happy about eating a +4/+5 wounding flamer hiting you at ap 3 for 2W.

That's actually not true, all doctrines a limited to certain weapon types and you have to switch through them. It just happens that the IH doctrine is linked to the one you start with.

Strange arugment IMO, because both RG and IH, or IF do run the weapons that work best with their doctrins. RG will run sniper bolters, eliminators . IF have a ton hvy bolters etc

Karol wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Ooh, that is a nice one. Few units would be willing to take a guaranteed melta hit to the face.

That is a wicked psychological weapon to have in one's pocket.

nah that is easy countered. If you know opponent can take you down, in match or in a game, with a combo of some sorts, you just play ignoring it, as over analyzing loses you more matchs on avarge.

I think most units trying to charge would happily take a melta hit in overwatch

who knows, maybe sisters have some sort of salamander light flamer rules. For example if they can double the number of flamer hits, or you have some really good buffs to flamers, not everyone is going to be happy about eating a +4/+5 wounding flamer hiting you at ap 3 for 2W.

That's actually not true, all doctrines a limited to certain weapon types and you have to switch through them. It just happens that the IH doctrine is linked to the one you start with.

Strange arugment IMO, because both RG and IH, or IF do run the weapons that work best with their doctrins. RG will run sniper bolters, eliminators . IF have a ton hvy bolters etc

Can't ignore it if you need that charge to win the game. It also tilts statistical odds enough to be possible but much riskier, example: Your daemon prince charges my cannoness, 3 wounds with his 2 damage weapon will kill her, you have 8 attacks 2s rerolling and 2s due to buffs. Your opponent has 2 4s in his pocket. Your opponent now only needs to make 3 saves on 7 wounds instead of 5.

It means you want to be rolling Moral for every unit that had a casualty, even if there is no possibility of failing because a 1 means you get a Dice (once per turn, no matter how many 1's you roll)

I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?