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Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
For the most part yes. You don't play GW games for accurate battle simulators, most people play them to have fun and see some cool stories unfold on the table. These people don't post on Dakka.
mostly because having to keep track of the roles adds another thing to watch during battle. I definitely like it more than the last act of faith one, which since i often roll low could easily spend points to just fizzle.
What'll really show it is how well the army and the strategems pan out. if for example there's a way to manipulate the miracle dice roll itself, then i can see it being even more useful. even low rolls depending on certain situations can be useful, like the exact hit roll or even just removing the risk of a plasma shot, or the mentioned morale stuff if that happens to come up.
Ideally there will be some strategems allowing you to discard the miracle dice for effects- not to many id hope, but in case your miracle rolls are large batches of 1's and 2's with nothing to spend them on, something to make them potentially more useful.
that said, you have to declare the use of these before you roll, yes? if you could replace the roll, they'd be even better, but that would have stepped on some serious toes, I'm sure.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
For the most part yes. You don't play GW games for accurate battle simulators, most people play them to have fun and see some cool stories unfold on the table. These people don't post on Dakka.
How exactly is having fun and seeing cool stories unfold at odds with tactical gameplay?
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
affecting proability is, assuming you do it right (GW doesn't) how you maximize player agency.
Imagine if you would a game where you can choose to go at standard speed or max speed. every unit has a differant speed, and there is a balance between speed, weapons and armor. if you chosoe to walk you receive a 1 penalty to your rolls. if you choose to run a 2 penalty, however your exact speed will inflict a differant peantly on your opponent, almost always higher. in addition weapons have differing range envelopes, that impact the penalties or positives to hit etc. and of course terrain can impact this as well. suddenly you as a player have signfcigent agency because how you move, where you move etc can have a real impact on your chances to hit, etc.
meanwhile 40k, it's just blanket bonuses and penalties, beyond standing in cover offering some minor bonuses there's not much point to manuvering, save maybe moving into rapid fire range.
so the problem isn't impacting proabilities, it's that GW doesn't really fold that kind of stuff deep into the game. at least with 40k (elements of this actually are, IIRC in adaptus titanicus)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/14 01:49:33
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
Because the base framework remains roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves. GW's special rules predominantly rely on bonuses or penalties to those three things. SRs rarely give a unit the option to take a special action outside of those things nor is there a suppression system, overall very little to consider or choices to make. Sure, you need to choose when best to use that Miracle Die of a 6, but it's still only modifying a hit roll, damage roll, or save roll. The system is so... linear and repetitive.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
Because the base framework remains roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves. GW's special rules predominantly rely on bonuses or penalties to those three things. SRs rarely give a unit the option to take a special action outside of those things nor is there a suppression system, overall very little to consider or choices to make. Sure, you need to choose when best to use that Miracle Die of a 6, but it's still only modifying a hit roll, damage roll, or save roll. The system is so... linear and repetitive.
I actually think this system is really good because it improves player agency and controls probability in a way that is wholly empowering the player.
Space abilities that do something cool on a random roll are pretty common, this reduces overall variance in the army and give more control to the player. It's like the opposite of what you're complaining about.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
How exactly giving you the ability to reduce the randomness at a time of your choosing but with limited charges a minimization of agency?
It's practically the definition of skill testing mechanics that increase agency.
Because the base framework remains roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves. GW's special rules predominantly rely on bonuses or penalties to those three things. SRs rarely give a unit the option to take a special action outside of those things nor is there a suppression system, overall very little to consider or choices to make. Sure, you need to choose when best to use that Miracle Die of a 6, but it's still only modifying a hit roll, damage roll, or save roll. The system is so... linear and repetitive.
We don't know if it only applies to hits, saves and damage. It could also be charges, advances, fall back rolls against units that require them, number of randomly determined shots [Makes flamers WAY deadly- ditto exorcists]; we also don't know that there aren't abilities contingent upon using a miracle die of a given value.
I see your point generally, but we can't look at this mechanic through that lens before we see the dex, because we just don't have all the information yet. For all we know, this could be one of those rules that breaks the pattern.
I like the idea of the miracle dice, being able to tweak crucial rolls, and know what you're tweaking them to, is a big deal. It could also make the Shield of Faith psychic denial a lot more useful despite only being a D6, as you could bank a 6 for that (assuming you can use the die on anything you want). If miracle dice are just hits/wounds/save though then that's going to diminish the appeal considerably.
However I'm not so sure how I feel about Acts of Faith being boiled down into these passive Sacred Rites. I actually really liked the system in Index: Imperium 2, because it's active and flexible, and you can gain more acts by purchasing more Imagifiers (at the risk of them being sniped), my only problem with it is that it being random means it's unreliable, even if you do everything right. But otherwise it feels lot more like a system that can represent waning faith as you lose Imagifiers, supplemented by the stratagem (Martyrdom? I forget) to trigger acts on character deaths.
As far as the passive effects go, we really need to see more of them, but of the two they've shown Spirit of the Martyr seems a lot better than the Passion, as the former applies to both shooting and melee, and lets you still make a third of your attacks on lost models which on a Toughness 3 army in an anti-marine meta you're going to be losing models quite a bit. Whereas the Passion is melee only, and I'm not sure how good the extra hits are if you're so likely to lose models before they get a chance to attack in the first place.
It's going to depend on what the rest of the rules look like I guess, maybe some rites will combine well with order-specific bonus (if we're still getting those?) or can mini-detachments can be built to take advantage of them better (e.g- repentia and flagellants/penitent engines if they get the rites too, since they can only benefit from Spirit of the Martyr in melee range anyway)?
So yeah, mixed feelings; I think on balance given that GW only seems to be able to do either random crap or persistent effects, it's better to get the latter, especially with a mechanic that can actually be used to reduce randomness, but I can't help but feel like the index system was very characterful, it just need to have the randomness removed from it (and be costed accordingly).
Excited by the new models though; probably won't get the army box, as I already have more basic squads, seraphim, acro-flagellants and penitent engines than I should ever need, I'm waiting more for the new tanks and heroes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/14 11:09:36
Karol wrote: Isn't the mechanic very dependand on having some big or swingy weapon though? getting a roll you want is great, and SoB will for sure have more ways to get thos miricle points. But they don't seem to have something like a castellan or a jump hammer dude to use it in larger games. In smaller ones it could be very devastating, but at 2000pts it doesn't really give much, comparing to re-rolling all 1s and being considered stationary after move.
Melta, the missile launcher vehicle. Do the sisters have lots of high flat damage weapons to make a punch on vehicles? Don't remember them having abundance of D2 weapons either. Most of anti tanks seems to have come from melta's(d6 damage) or the missile launcher vehicle firing d6 shots. With d6 damage to boot.
Blastaar wrote: I just don't understand GW's obsession with relying on mechanics that affect probability. Do GW players really prefer rulesets where player agency is minimized?
Others have already talked about how this mechanic actually increases player agency by giving the player the choice when and how he wants to spend these dice so I'll just add this.
Tournament lists are often designed to minimise randomness and high variance. Large amounts of attacks to get closer to statistical averages. re-rolls. Back in the days of WHFB maximising combat bonuses so they actually attacks mattered less was a big thing.
If your going to go undefeated against top players 5-6 games in a row you want consistency.
A mechanic such as this where you can 'force' a crucial die roll fits right into that and is pretty strong (tho Sisters will need more to be able to compete).
PenitentJake wrote: ...number of randomly determined shots [Makes flamers WAY deadly- ditto exorcists]
5 or 6 hits on a single flamer every other turn is probably not the way to go unless the target absolutely has to die and the flamer is all you've got. High rolls are going to be most useful for things like post-save damage on D6 weapons and ensuring critical charges. Statistically only a handful of 6s per game so make them count.
As expected, we are getting a lot of miracle shenanigans.
I think it's more interesting to note that the Argent Shroud and Martyred Lady were re-worked. Argent Shroud looks like they have a solid trait. Martyred Lady is a weird trait.
Also, 4++ to nearby infantry looks really good. That said, this book probably went to print before the Iron Hands debacle, so the fact that this one is locked to infantry makes me disappointed with GW and the SM Supplements, since it should have been obvious extending it to vehicles would be problematic.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I don't really like this rule. Having loads of preemptive "Command Reroll" Stratagems is not that interesting of a mechanic I think.
But what I find worse is, that our army bonus is so random. Everyone here seems to assume you only get high rolls into the miracle pool. Those 6s for overwatch, damage or Exorcists are only coming into the pool at a rate of 1/6. What are we to do with all those 2/3/4? Morale is the only application that comes into my mind and that never plays a role in my games.
I can see the bonus from miracle dice being completely obsolete in some games where you only get a couple of low rolls into your pool.
The randomness of the bonus also reminds me more about chaos than something the emperor might grant.
Pro_b0 wrote: I don't really like this rule. Having loads of preemptive "Command Reroll" Stratagems is not that interesting of a mechanic I think.
But what I find worse is, that our army bonus is so random. Everyone here seems to assume you only get high rolls into the miracle pool. Those 6s for overwatch, damage or Exorcists are only coming into the pool at a rate of 1/6. What are we to do with all those 2/3/4? Morale is the only application that comes into my mind and that never plays a role in my games.
I can see the bonus from miracle dice being completely obsolete in some games where you only get a couple of low rolls into your pool.
The randomness of the bonus also reminds me more about chaos than something the emperor might grant.
Or am I missing something?
You never wound stuff on 4+? 3+? Ever heard phrase "anything but 1"? Never failed that crucial 4-5" charge?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/15 08:32:26
Pro_b0 wrote: I don't really like this rule. Having loads of preemptive "Command Reroll" Stratagems is not that interesting of a mechanic I think.
But what I find worse is, that our army bonus is so random. Everyone here seems to assume you only get high rolls into the miracle pool. Those 6s for overwatch, damage or Exorcists are only coming into the pool at a rate of 1/6. What are we to do with all those 2/3/4? Morale is the only application that comes into my mind and that never plays a role in my games.
I can see the bonus from miracle dice being completely obsolete in some games where you only get a couple of low rolls into your pool.
The randomness of the bonus also reminds me more about chaos than something the emperor might grant.
Or am I missing something?
A vehicle explodes that you really don't want to explode could be another use.
"You never wound stuff on 4+? 3+? Ever heard phrase "anything but 1"? Never failed that crucial 4-5" charge?"
"A vehicle explodes that you really don't want to explode could be another use."
Sorry I couldn't find the quote button.
Both of those examples don't really convince me, because it means substituting rolls with my army bonus that I will make in all likelihood.
From a power-perspective: I can do that much more efficiently with a command reroll, because I only need to pay it if I actually fail those rolls.
From a fluff-perspective: making a 4 or 5 '' charge or not rolling a one to wound is not very miraculous or inspiring.
There would need to be more rolls, where it is great if you roll lower rather than higher, like morale. But there are not many of those or if there are they are unimportant.
4+ is just 50-50. "all likelyhood" as if. 4+ you have exact same chance to succeed as fail. And games are often decided by few keyrolls succeeding or failing.
Command reroll isn't as quaranteed though. Need that 4+ to succeed and fail? Well with command reroll you get 50% odd for your second attempt. Compare that to 100% quarantee.
The main draw that you oversee at the moment is consistency.
You are able to make something just work instead of relying on a dice roll.
I don't understand your argument about command rerolls. You don't directly pay for Miracle dice. They are a bonus that your army get for free. For a command reroll you always have to pay a command point.
Your fluff perspective is a bit meta-gamey. The miracle is not making any charge or armor save or hit. It is consistently making that charge which led to killing the enemy leader, your HQ consistently surviving being shot at or in melee against all odds and so on.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
They are an interesting rule tempered by the cost and power of the sisters themselves, the scale of the game, and the bias towards certain results being useful.
In another smaller scale game the system could work as a core resource mechanic.
For sisters as it stands it means that a number of times each game you'll be more likely to get the result you want, be it a set number of wounds from your last exocist missile to just finish off an important target, or not having to gamble on an assassin shooting your only psychic defense off the board in the first turn, or making some low odds charge with repentia. They won't turn a weak army into a strong army, but they might make an opponent second guess themselves.
Pro_b0 wrote: "You never wound stuff on 4+? 3+? Ever heard phrase "anything but 1"? Never failed that crucial 4-5" charge?"
"A vehicle explodes that you really don't want to explode could be another use."
Sorry I couldn't find the quote button.
Both of those examples don't really convince me, because it means substituting rolls with my army bonus that I will make in all likelihood.
From a power-perspective: I can do that much more efficiently with a command reroll, because I only need to pay it if I actually fail those rolls.
From a fluff-perspective: making a 4 or 5 '' charge or not rolling a one to wound is not very miraculous or inspiring.
There would need to be more rolls, where it is great if you roll lower rather than higher, like morale. But there are not many of those or if there are they are unimportant.
Quote button is on the top right of the post you wish to quote.
I get where you're coming from, but the systems are complimentary. A big part of games where you have a limited reroll resource is determining when you would be willing to use that reroll before you actually make the roll. This is vital in a system like Blood Bowl where your turn ends if you fail a roll, but it's also very good in 40k-style systems.
If you are willing to use a CP reroll on something, then it follows that you should also be willing to use a reroll that is guaranteed to pass. This is even more relevant when you have a choice between a non-renewable resource with multiple possible applications (CP) and a renewable resource with a more limited scope (Faith).
It doesn't matter how likely any dice roll is to succeed. Even a 2+ with a reroll is lower probability than absolute certainty.
The real basis of your argument seems to boil down to "This isn't good enough for me" or maybe "I wanted something different and better." Why do I say this? Because Miracle dice are FREE. They aren't "I choose miracle dice over X". Now, that said, Okay, I accept you wanted something better (or perhaps simply loved the current rules).
As to a miracle dice pool; The 2 is tougher, mostly I see a guaranteed 2 damage roll (can it replace a d3? who knows how that will work). That 3 or 4 is an absolutely valuable resource since you can build in 3++ saves for your army. Knowing my cannoness is going to survive to swing can save me 2 CP on an interrupt for example. Hitting with that Multi-melta automatically is worth something. Your argument on "I'm going to make it anyway or likely" is flawed because as said earlier, no, you won't make it X% of the time.
I like the mechanic and possibilities. It isn't perfect, it isn't a guaranteed win (and please, can the OP/garbage people go away), it is a mechanic we shall try and work with. As a sister's player I have a whole host of new choices to make with them. Some simple and obvious, some not so much. Do I burn that 5 early on exorcist shots? or save it for damage, or a charge? That 3 could mean my hunter killer missile auto hits, and those points aren't wasted. But wait, it could also mean it auto wounds, or automatically finishes the last 3 wounds on that knight... I look forward to making the right, and wrong decisions, because that is the joy in this game, my brain working.
Here is a strange and niche use; I tied a game in an ITC because the rules involved players moving Objectives. My opponent won a key roll off on the last turn and moved it away from my models to his and gained a 2 point swing for a tie (and his roll was a 3...darn dice). I know we aren't sure if miracle dice can be used for any roll or what, but I could have used it there! The possibilities are really open-ended right now.
I do wonder in the second preview about the chapter traits we didn't see, because currently the one to gain miracle dice seems MASSIVE! The others are going to struggle to match up IMO.
Keeping the hobby side alive!
I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage.
edwardmyst wrote: The real basis of your argument seems to boil down to "This isn't good enough for me" or maybe "I wanted something different and better." Why do I say this? Because Miracle dice are FREE. They aren't "I choose miracle dice over X". Now, that said, Okay, I accept you wanted something better (or perhaps simply loved the current rules).
As to a miracle dice pool; The 2 is tougher, mostly I see a guaranteed 2 damage roll (can it replace a d3? who knows how that will work). That 3 or 4 is an absolutely valuable resource since you can build in 3++ saves for your army. Knowing my cannoness is going to survive to swing can save me 2 CP on an interrupt for example. Hitting with that Multi-melta automatically is worth something. Your argument on "I'm going to make it anyway or likely" is flawed because as said earlier, no, you won't make it X% of the time.
I like the mechanic and possibilities. It isn't perfect, it isn't a guaranteed win (and please, can the OP/garbage people go away), it is a mechanic we shall try and work with. As a sister's player I have a whole host of new choices to make with them. Some simple and obvious, some not so much. Do I burn that 5 early on exorcist shots? or save it for damage, or a charge? That 3 could mean my hunter killer missile auto hits, and those points aren't wasted. But wait, it could also mean it auto wounds, or automatically finishes the last 3 wounds on that knight... I look forward to making the right, and wrong decisions, because that is the joy in this game, my brain working.
Here is a strange and niche use; I tied a game in an ITC because the rules involved players moving Objectives. My opponent won a key roll off on the last turn and moved it away from my models to his and gained a 2 point swing for a tie (and his roll was a 3...darn dice). I know we aren't sure if miracle dice can be used for any roll or what, but I could have used it there! The possibilities are really open-ended right now.
I do wonder in the second preview about the chapter traits we didn't see, because currently the one to gain miracle dice seems MASSIVE! The others are going to struggle to match up IMO.
We don't have weapons that do D3 damage, I think, so it's a moot point.
Also, I don't think checking for a guaranteed hit with a Multimelta is a good use either. It might be if you used it after you roll, but you use them before you roll. Then, one multimelta hit out of 4 isn't going to make a difference is just about anything, and a supported Ret squad has a 78% chance of hitting anyway, and it still has to wound. If you're going to spend it on a Multemelta, spend it on the wound roll which is 66%-50% chances, versus the hit roll which is 66% to 78% chances.
I also don't think Our Martyred Lady's trait is good at all. Getting +1 [+2 max] Miracle Dice per turn is the approximate equivalent of getting less than half of the Salamanders or Bad Moons trait on a single unit in your army, and your units have to be being quickly destroyed. It's not going to be powerful if you're winning, and that ones unit isn't going to turn the tide if you're losing. Now that we've actually appraised the value of the Miracle Dice part of the trait, the +1 to hit for units that have lost models doesn't work on Exorcists, and it requires your enemy to be cooperating by leaving your units alive but killing a small number from each. Even assuming they perfectly cooperate and you buy one extra model for rets and doms and they obligingly kill just that model and not the rest of the unit, is 10 points for 2+ BS actually worthwhile? Any special or heavy weapons bearers who die for the +1 BS are basically automatically not worth the cost.
I would absolutely not take a trait that's defunct when you're winning, does literally nothing if you get the first turn, and has a weak effect when you're losing. You might as well have not taken a trait. I think the previewed Argent Shroud trait is miles better than the Martyred Lady one, because improved mobility is generally useful. However, it's only half of Tallarn, which also lets tanks ignore the move-fire penalty in addition to infantry being able to advance and fire, which is disappointing because allowing Exorcists and Immolators with anything other than the Immolation Flamer to be mobile would have been a pretty solid option on its own and opened up some options to be potentially viable.
I do like this mechanic, because for once it's something designed to be planned around as opposed to a special rule being "roll a dice for something cool to happen!" That said, I don't think it's strong at all.
I think the relic to re-roll Miracle dice might be an auto-take relic, since you definitely want to secure the high rolls. If the Brazier is still a thing, and the Blade of Admonition are still things that sets up the three relics to take I think.
As a further note, you 100% could not have used a Miracle die for that rule. There's a list of rolls that it can be used on, and that roll comes from a mission packet and from a 3rd party one at that, so it wouldn't be on the list. In addition, my bet would be that it's only for rolls generated by Act of Faith units, but there's no guarantee there.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/15 21:24:42
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
@ Katherine
Good points on not being able to use that roll. Really doubt it would have been possible, unless the rule says any roll...teeny chance of that (I do think at least it will have the Model with the AOF ability tacked on), but this is GW writing rules...(see the thread in you make the call about coherency and you can't ever move once out of it by more than movement ability).
We of course disagree on the power of Miracle Dice. Which is cool. It's what makes the game work, and the reason the same army doesn't actually win every battle or tournament despite claims to the contrary.
I want more dice in my pool because I see massive and varied uses for them, and do feel despite the buckets of dice, a few crucial roles decide most games (certainly in my tournament history).
As to comparing to the every unit rerolls to hit and wound traits, no argument on comparative value. It still amazes me that hasn't blown up as an issue, and people bother with others...I've always felt it the most unbalanced, and have used it myself.
As to not being a good use to auto hit something that hits on a 3+ or so? Well the argument that using it on the wound roll instead is valid. I guess either is the same risk of course. That's part of why I like the rule. Now I have this choice, and it is a choice...where do I risk the roll? First, second...whatever.
Besides...
I still think my immolators could use an auto hit chance with their twin melta...or an auto hit with my cannoness' inferno pistol when I need it most is a darn good use of a 2 from the pool. I seem to suck all the time. We of course have no idea what the new codex weapons and damage will do, but we might have some d3 damage weapons (I'm hoping the eviscerator for a character returns and works like a powerfist). As to the +1 to hit, again it amazes me how tables differ. I ALWAYS have units down models left on the table, because I generally play the two many units game (I also buy my doms with two extra wound models, but I do agree the times might be rare). But...most importantly you might be forgetting that +1 is to hit in melee, and losing a repentia to overwatch is a common occurance for me, so suddenly I'm back to hitting on 3+ with re-rolls (given current rules of course) and that was one of the additions I had in my mind.
Keeping the hobby side alive!
I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage.
edwardmyst wrote: @ Katherine
Good points on not being able to use that roll. Really doubt it would have been possible, unless the rule says any roll...teeny chance of that (I do think at least it will have the Model with the AOF ability tacked on), but this is GW writing rules...(see the thread in you make the call about coherency and you can't ever move once out of it by more than movement ability).
We of course disagree on the power of Miracle Dice. Which is cool. It's what makes the game work, and the reason the same army doesn't actually win every battle or tournament despite claims to the contrary.
I want more dice in my pool because I see massive and varied uses for them, and do feel despite the buckets of dice, a few crucial roles decide most games (certainly in my tournament history).
As to comparing to the every unit rerolls to hit and wound traits, no argument on comparative value. It still amazes me that hasn't blown up as an issue, and people bother with others...I've always felt it the most unbalanced, and have used it myself.
As to not being a good use to auto hit something that hits on a 3+ or so? Well the argument that using it on the wound roll instead is valid. I guess either is the same risk of course. That's part of why I like the rule. Now I have this choice, and it is a choice...where do I risk the roll? First, second...whatever.
Besides...
I still think my immolators could use an auto hit chance with their twin melta...or an auto hit with my cannoness' inferno pistol when I need it most is a darn good use of a 2 from the pool. I seem to suck all the time. We of course have no idea what the new codex weapons and damage will do, but we might have some d3 damage weapons (I'm hoping the eviscerator for a character returns and works like a powerfist). As to the +1 to hit, again it amazes me how tables differ. I ALWAYS have units down models left on the table, because I generally play the two many units game (I also buy my doms with two extra wound models, but I do agree the times might be rare). But...most importantly you might be forgetting that +1 is to hit in melee, and losing a repentia to overwatch is a common occurance for me, so suddenly I'm back to hitting on 3+ with re-rolls (given current rules of course) and that was one of the additions I had in my mind.
You lose out of Order of the Bloody Rose, and thus S8 Repentia.
I fell like it's a booby prize, because it doesn't trigger until after your unit has been dead. "You lost a couple of meltaguns! To make that sting less, your remaining 1 meltagunner now hits on 2's!" Even 20 points for +1BS isn't worth it for the unit. Also, my units tend not be be running around down exactly the one useless model I bought as padding, since the enemy was shooting at them to try to kill the meltaguns. And, of course, if you're playing MSU, you're going to get units wiped more easily than having exactly the value models left.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/15 22:43:05
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Sim-Life wrote: Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Squinting at the screen it looked like they had AOF and SOF.
I transcribed quite a bit
Spoiler:
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Sim-Life wrote: Now that we have the full rules via GMG we can see that theres loads of extra ways to generate miracle dice. At least two ways to modify the value of the dice and you can use the low dice to resurrect dead characters via a straragem that lets you discard one dice per wound. We also know that Immolators and Rhinos get Acts of Faith but Exorcists don't (I think, Ash never explicitly stated either way).
Squinting at the screen it looked like they had AOF and SOF.
I transcribed quite a bit
Spoiler:
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
Sounds a lot like there isn't some big army rule (ala doctrines) besides the miracle dice? The dice on their own are not good enough to make an army competitive unless they are undercosted for their raw stats.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
