This box set was meant to be the turning point for the eldar and dark eldar the big release. Brand new aspect warriors in plastic moving forward the storyline. Cool new incubi.instead it had probably the worst sales a box set released by games workshop has had in this newer era. All the independent game stores still have hundreds of these boxes gathering dust. I think the poor sales have completely killed eldar and dark eldar releases for the next few years and possibly could see them squatted further down the line. Certaintly we wont be seeing any more plastic aspect warriors for a long long time.
Icegoat wrote: This box set was meant to be the turning point for the eldar and dark eldar the big release.
You're kidding, right?
Icegoat wrote: Brand new aspect warriors in plastic moving forward the storyline. Cool new incubi.
'Oh, hey, Eldar players, you know how most of your model line is 20 years old? Well good news, we're updating a single Aspect Warrior kit!'
'And Dark Eldar players, you know how we gutted your entire codex? No, we're still not going to give you any of the HQs we removed, but look - here's a new Incubi kit and updated Drazhar kit no one asked for!'
'Sorry, those two kits are the absolute limit of what our manufacturing is capable of. Now if you'll excuse us, we need to make 400 new Primaris models because there hasn't been a Marine release in the last nanosecond.'
Icegoat wrote: instead it had probably the worst sales a box set released by games workshop has had in this newer era. All the independent game stores still have hundreds of these boxes gathering dust.
Well, honestly, what were you expecting?
It was a pathetic number of new models, shoved together with ancient and garbage Eldar and DE models that either no one uses or every player already has a million of.
Also, the book was an even bigger insult. You know how everyone else got new Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Artefacts etc.? Well, not being a Marine release, Eldar and Dark Eldar got bugger all of any of those. it was literally a pile of utter dross that no one put any effort into and that they couldn't even be bothered finishing, so instead they just packaged it with the godawful Ynnari rules to pad it out, and pretended it was an actual release.
Icegoat wrote: I think the poor sales have completely killed eldar and dark eldar releases for the next few years and possibly could see them squatted further down the line. Certaintly we wont be seeing any more plastic aspect warriors for a long long time.
No, what killed Eldar and Dark Eldar was GW's complete apathy towards them. Whether or not this release sold was a lose-lose prospect for Eldar/DE players. if it sells well, then GW knows that Eldar and DE players will eagerly buy the laziest, shoddiest gak they put to print. If it doesn't sell well, then clearly Eldar and DE aren't profitable.
I really doubt it, they are very popular factions. It might have let GW find the price ceiling for their boxed sets, since this one was worse value than usual.
I would probably have picked it up if it was not so over priced.
GW seems to over price a lot of Eldar stuff in particular, like the Dire Avengers are priced crazy high for 5 models.
I wouldn't take Icegoat too seriously - he's migrated over from TGA forums where he was mostly saying the same kind of things about armies as well. KO are dead because their duel boxed set didn't sell out in a day; Cities are dead because they don't have endless spells etc...
He's already saying that Necrons, Eldar and now Dark Eldar are all for the chop based on basically nothing - and that's in just two posts
who knows maybe GW is going to do some big change to all xeno armies. Orks could dramaticly change under their new warboss, necrons could change when the shadow king returns. Maybe eldar of different shapes of forms turn in to being Inari, or something else.
If GW could pull off changing marine lore so much, and marines are their top seller, why couldn't they change other stuff.
Karol wrote: who knows maybe GW is going to do some big change to all xeno armies. Orks could dramaticly change under their new warboss, necrons could change when the shadow king returns. Maybe eldar of different shapes of forms turn in to being Inari, or something else.
If GW could pull off changing marine lore so much, and marines are their top seller, why couldn't they change other stuff.
I'm fairly certain that if there was a grand plan to lump all eldar together into Ynnari, that got scrapped based on the universally negative reaction to Ynnari by the entire playerbase including Eldar players who hated having their stuff see repeated nerfs because of some stupid combo-faction they didn't play.
The fact that Ynnari have been crammed into a back corner with basically the worst rules of any faction in the entire game (and yes, now that GK have gotten PA rules we absolutely CAN say that) and have seen precisely zero model releases since they were dropped like 3 years ago to make them anything resembling a real army should pretty much indicate how much GW cares about them.
Karol wrote: who knows maybe GW is going to do some big change to all xeno armies. Orks could dramaticly change under their new warboss, necrons could change when the shadow king returns. Maybe eldar of different shapes of forms turn in to being Inari, or something else.
If GW could pull off changing marine lore so much, and marines are their top seller, why couldn't they change other stuff.
I'm fairly certain that if there was a grand plan to lump all eldar together into Ynnari, that got scrapped based on the universally negative reaction to Ynnari by the entire playerbase including Eldar players who hated having their stuff see repeated nerfs because of some stupid combo-faction they didn't play.
The fact that Ynnari have been crammed into a back corner with basically the worst rules of any faction in the entire game (and yes, now that GK have gotten PA rules we absolutely CAN say that) and have seen precisely zero model releases since they were dropped like 3 years ago to make them anything resembling a real army should pretty much indicate how much GW cares about them.
But what about all the genius marketing?
You know, like packaging together Eldar and DE models into a Ynnari force, even though the two special characters they were trying to showcase can never be taken as Ynnari.
Overread wrote: I wouldn't take Icegoat too seriously - he's migrated over from TGA forums where he was mostly saying the same kind of things about armies as well. KO are dead because their duel boxed set didn't sell out in a day; Cities are dead because they don't have endless spells etc...
He's already saying that Necrons, Eldar and now Dark Eldar are all for the chop based on basically nothing - and that's in just two posts
Dakka is much more negative about things, and while it's fun to read some of the posts over there, seeing I here is just an eye roll away from being posted on BoLS and Spikeybits as "Rumors".
The fact that Ynnari have been crammed into a back corner with basically the worst rules of any faction in the entire game (and yes, now that GK have gotten PA rules we absolutely CAN say that) and have seen precisely zero model releases since they were dropped like 3 years ago to make them anything resembling a real army should pretty much indicate how much GW cares about them.
The ynnari "chapter tactic" sucks but they have access to some ridiculously powerful warlord traits and relics at least.
You know, like packaging together Eldar and DE models into a Ynnari force, even though the two special characters they were trying to showcase can never be taken as Ynnari.
As soon as they release the new models as separates, they'll scream off the shelves and GW will realize it was the combining of the models that lead to poor sales, not the models themselves.
Sisters individual boxes are selling better than the sisters big box too. I think you'll see fewer big boxes, not fewer Eldar.
It was a very odd release. I know less about the DE, but for the Eldar it was two 2nd edition (i think?) models with just one new squad, which aren't even available separately if you want more, and no other releases for them whatsoever. No idea who it was aimed at, or was gonna spend £140 on it.
It would be interested how Wake the Dead, or even Tooth and Claw did, I assume they just keep them until they sell out so presume they met their targets, but both included Primaris which helps a lot. I know my local store has had big issues shifting Wrath and Rapture despite it being both AoS and 40k suitable.
Shooter wrote: It was a very odd release. I know less about the DE, but for the Eldar it was two 2nd edition (i think?) models with just one new squad, which aren't even available separately if you want more, and no other releases for them whatsoever. No idea who it was aimed at, or was gonna spend £140 on it.
The DE range was re-done more recently than that, but otherwise it was basically the same deal. Re-sculpted character + squad, and some existing stuff that people will pretty much already own if they want.
The fact that Ynnari have been crammed into a back corner with basically the worst rules of any faction in the entire game (and yes, now that GK have gotten PA rules we absolutely CAN say that) and have seen precisely zero model releases since they were dropped like 3 years ago to make them anything resembling a real army should pretty much indicate how much GW cares about them.
The ynnari "chapter tactic" sucks but they have access to some ridiculously powerful warlord traits and relics at least.
The biggest problem with Ynnari is that their rules are locked behind 3 special characters.
Blood of the Phoenix was a garbage box. It's also still the only way to get the new models...
The biggest issue is that we learned that new plastic Aspect Warriors are going to be boxes of five models. That means at the very minimum, $35 per box or, worst case scenario $40-45. This means you're looking at a total cost of $70-90 for 10 models which are Toughness 3, 1 wound...etc. Similar to Sisters of Battle.
That puts them more expensive than larger models like Primaris marines which are already $60 per 10.
1) Put cool models everyone has been waiting for behind a pay wall
2) Make it Ynnari focus with characters that can't be Ynnari
3) Add in other units and models all players have lots of and don't play them b.c the rules suck
4) Have great time to fix said rules, DOESN'T FIX RULES
5) Cost to high even for splinting the box
6) DE players actually wanted Vect, other named hero and Mounted Heroes back... well we got plastic units no one plays!
7) Faction traits could have been made to mix and match DE units... FAIL ON GW PART, just more 3 way tug of war for detachments/points
Will GW screw of Xeno b.c of this failed Released? No, b.c they already screw over DE and other Xeno's whenever they can so its nothing new.
Personally the traits could have been perfect to mix and match the army like it should be, GW failed so hard with this release its not even fun.
I really hope this isn't the case.
Personally I was happy with the box because I wanted the new sculpts and the falcon to make a third one and I was planning to at least ally in some dark eldar but after buying the Christmas box I'm planning a full drukhari force. But I'm happy to admit to Yan edge case.
Craftworlds seems to be up there in terms of xenos popularity from both a competitive and collection, maybe even the most popular if dakka polls are to be trusted. This is despite how old a lot of the range is. I'm pretty confident that separate boxes of the aspects would sell very well. I think we'll see a big wave of craftworlds releases at some point, just not sure when.
Karol wrote: who knows maybe GW is going to do some big change to all xeno armies. Orks could dramaticly change under their new warboss, necrons could change when the shadow king returns. Maybe eldar of different shapes of forms turn in to being Inari, or something else.
If GW could pull off changing marine lore so much, and marines are their top seller, why couldn't they change other stuff.
I don't go on the Internet and tell everyone your nightmares.....
But seriously, this thread is dumb because almost every part of the OP is moronic. BOTP sold badly because it was bad.
Does anyone have anything even resembling a fact that would tend to show that it did actually not sell well?
My FLGS still has Dark Imperium boxes, so I guess that means 40K didn't sell well and is about to get Melta'd. Because anecdotal evidence based on tiny sample sizes are best evidence.
I'm not arguing that BoP is an amazing box and GW are geniuses for releasing it, I just wonder how many of the OP's naked assertions are actually borne out.
Shooter wrote: It was a very odd release. I know less about the DE, but for the Eldar it was two 2nd edition (i think?) models with just one new squad, which aren't even available separately if you want more, and no other releases for them whatsoever. No idea who it was aimed at, or was gonna spend £140 on it.
The DE range was re-done more recently than that, but otherwise it was basically the same deal. Re-sculpted character + squad, and some existing stuff that people will pretty much already own if they want.
Not just that, but Incubi and Hellions both are abysmal game-wise, and in the case of Hellions they came out with a boxed game a little while back that had 10x hellions and 6x Reavers and it was priced so cartoonishly low that you got a discount even if you bought it just for the two reaver kits (and reavers were a competitive choice at the time).
I bought two boxes of that - I never ever ever ever need hellions ever again. So did every other DE player I know.
Falcon, Banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi, Hellions, Vyper - All bottom of the barrel terrible, generally old kits
Venom, Scourges, new Drazar - decent units
Price - extremely high for an army box set, worst discount we've seen in a while.
Gwarsh, I wonder why this didn't sell well? It's like, if you came out with a brand fancy new space marine battle box and it was like
"WOW check out the new awesome space marine box, you get
I am in complete agreement with every one saying the box was a poor release it was terrible value the old unit options were mind boggling boring and stale and the new units were five man units and a special. Awful but the box has been recieved so badly I just don't know why gw will ever gamble on the eldar or de again.when a battle box of marines sells out in hours and sisters of battle minutes why and how could the bean counters justify pouring more money and resources and time into these two factions they made a massive loss on. I think those 25 year old warlocks will see through another decade at least.
The thing is, at least this would *vaguely* be an army? Grab a box of intercessors and you have a battalion. Not a good army by any stretch - but something.
The Eldar/DE forces made no sense. You can't even build patrols out of these forces.
And as you say - for all the cry GW does this - its not as if the new stuff was "omg wut overpowered, if you are playing Eldar/DE you need Banshees/Incubi and the special characters."
You have two melee characters with weak delivery systems, and two infantry units that are maybe okay against relic from a dark age MEQ, but are bad versus Primaris, and suck versus both hordes or vehicles.
But yeah. I think it should have been about £100, not £140. Someone at GW probably went "yeah but the two characters are £20 each, and the units about £30, so, thats £100, you can't have all that stuff for free" but... are they really selling any Hellions? Falcons? Vypers?
But then what do you do having balkanised DE to the point Incubi don't really exist?
Excommunicatus wrote: Does anyone have anything even resembling a fact that would tend to show that it did actually not sell well?
My FLGS still has Dark Imperium boxes, so I guess that means 40K didn't sell well and is about to get Melta'd. Because anecdotal evidence based on tiny sample sizes are best evidence.
I'm not arguing that BoP is an amazing box and GW are geniuses for releasing it, I just wonder how many of the OP's naked assertions are actually borne out.
Dark imperium is still being printed as it is the starter set for the edition. BotP isnt, what is seen in stores everywhere are the same boxes they got on their first orders, at least in my area. Elf players in my area won't even split the box because of how obscenely expensive it is (280CAD) and even if the box was cheaper, the named cahracters in it mean that buying multiples makes little sense.
Oh, another bit of joy with the box kit - they gave the Dark Eldar side 5 Incubi, Drazhar and a Venom.
Given that Venoms can only ever transport 5 models, Drazhar can't even ride with his own men. And since there are no other models, either he or his Incubi won't be riding at all.
BrianDavion wrote: this boixed set released 3 months ago, why are we complaining about it again? did something change?
Icegoat registered on Dakka and decided that trying to start a grassroots campaign to squat Eldar is the best way of getting more space on the release schedule for the Necrons.
Da Boss wrote: I really doubt it, they are very popular factions. It might have let GW find the price ceiling for their boxed sets, since this one was worse value than usual.
It wasn't just about price. I'm a Drukhari player and I'm not touching anything with Hellions in it, and the Drazhar sculpt is terminally crappy. (And I already have the superior metal one)
Add to that the fact that Incubi just suck. Why would I take this box for even $20?
The Eldar side of the box has similar problems. Vyper sucks, and is ooooooooooold. I don't know about anyone who uses Jain Zar. Apart from Baharroth she must be the least useful Phoenix Lord.
The main problems of this box is not just price, but the garbage they filled it with.
vipoid wrote: Oh, another bit of joy with the box kit - they gave the Dark Eldar side 5 Incubi, Drazhar and a Venom.
Given that Venoms can only ever transport 5 models, Drazhar can't even ride with his own men. And since there are no other models, either he or his Incubi won't be riding at all.
Top marks, GW.
That's a problem by the codex designer in 2014 though. Cruddace? Venom should always have been 6 capacity. That this ignoble oversight made it into yet another book really shows how low the brows are in GW writing team.
Honestly I would've happily bought it for Jain Zar as I like her and I play for fluff and the Falcon/Vyper are models I both like and don't have BUT why would I buy a super expensive box set for it? I'd be stuck with a bunch of DE that are either bad or not worth having alone and why would I want more Banshees than I already have?
A few things in it were decent but it's almost entirely trash so why would I buy it? I wouldn't but I did get a decent amount of what I wanted off ebay.
Lets face it most people with an established major collection of any army can find fault with almost all of the duel army boxed sets GW has released. People with big armies already have most of the models they "need" and what they want/need is likely very specific and varies a lot person to person. All they really want are the new kits.
In contrast those with new or very new armies are more likely to be attracted to the boxed sets because they contain core and new models - a majority of which they "need/want/might want". So they have greater value for that segment of the market.
I think the real issue isn't actually the content of the box, its the time-lag between the duel set and the new models going on individual sale. That's the real issue because until they do go on individual sale people feel like the only way to get them is through "ebay scalpers" or buying a set where they only want part of it and having the additional "bother" of selling/trading on the rest.
If GW had a pattern of duel box for 2 months then model releases which they stuck too then many of the complaints were slip aside because the time-lag would be fairly low. However when you've boxes with unique models in them for a year (AoS has several such) then that's a very long time delay to hold new models at ransom.
It's also honestly surprising GW is doing that because all it does is send money circling around in the secondhand and scalper markets; money that could instead be being spent directly on GW models.
And yet at the same time GW seem to still have stock or be producing stock for Wrath and Rapture - whilst having put all the unique models in that set on individual sale.
As has been said that box was just a total head-scratcher in every way.
Even the best part of the box - new plastic banshees - they did so little with them rules wise to make them desirable or a must take. I'm not saying they needed to push them into OP territory, but a little more rules love would have made a difference I think?
Also, maybe could have given them a little variation or new ideas instead of just doing a exact copy pasta of the old ones? Maybe a weapon variant or two? Maybe something different for a Ynnari version like some option parts?
But nope - they put minimal effort into the whole affair and then made it cost a crazy amount. Almost makes me wish the OP is right and they will squat 'em if this is all they can manage - just so underwhelming....
pm713 wrote: Honestly I would've happily bought it for Jain Zar as I like her and I play for fluff and the Falcon/Vyper are models I both like and don't have BUT why would I buy a super expensive box set for it? I'd be stuck with a bunch of DE that are either bad or not worth having alone and why would I want more Banshees than I already have?
A few things in it were decent but it's almost entirely trash so why would I buy it? I wouldn't but I did get a decent amount of what I wanted off ebay.
yeah here's the empty spot on my shelf.
Which would have plastic incubi, plastic drazar, and plastic banshees on it.
if GW would SELL THEM TO ME.
I'm not buying from a scalper on ebay, I buy from my local or not at all and I'm not shelling out 250 for a bunch of crap I don't need and can't resell.
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petrov27 wrote: As has been said that box was just a total head-scratcher in every way.
Even the best part of the box - new plastic banshees - they did so little with them rules wise to make them desirable or a must take. I'm not saying they needed to push them into OP territory, but a little more rules love would have made a difference I think?
Also, maybe could have given them a little variation or new ideas instead of just doing a exact copy pasta of the old ones? Maybe a weapon variant or two? Maybe something different for a Ynnari version like some option parts?
But nope - they put minimal effort into the whole affair and then made it cost a crazy amount. Almost makes me wish the OP is right and they will squat 'em if this is all they can manage - just so underwhelming....
I guess they brought back the triskele after making it index-only...didn't make it or the mirrorswords any good though.. it's like hey, you can make the mirrorswords nearly as points efficient as the executioner if you give up -1 to hit in melee...woooooooo....
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Overread wrote: Lets face it most people with an established major collection of any army can find fault with almost all of the duel army boxed sets GW has released. People with big armies already have most of the models they "need" and what they want/need is likely very specific and varies a lot person to person. All they really want are the new kits.
In contrast those with new or very new armies are more likely to be attracted to the boxed sets because they contain core and new models -
say what?
Core models, dude?
yeah let me just start up my new eldar army with the contents of this box. Let's see I got
1 HQ 1 Elite
1 Heavy
1 Fast
Well I can run a....a not detachment. An unbound army.
How bout the drukhari, we have
1 hq 1 elite
2 fast
1 transport
Cool, Cool, i'll run one of those unbound armies I'm hearing everyone raving about these days. maybe I can run them as Ynnari, you know combine them!
I'm surprised it's actually taken this long for the individual kits to be released.
I suspect they may be holding off on release until either a new codex is on the horizon and/or they have other new kits to release alongside to spark interest and impulse buying.
Icegoat wrote: This box set was meant to be the turning point for the eldar and dark eldar the big release. Brand new aspect warriors in plastic moving forward the storyline. Cool new incubi.instead it had probably the worst sales a box set released by games workshop has had in this newer era. All the independent game stores still have hundreds of these boxes gathering dust. I think the poor sales have completely killed eldar and dark eldar releases for the next few years and possibly could see them squatted further down the line. Certaintly we wont be seeing any more plastic aspect warriors for a long long time.
Maybe just not enough people collect them.
To paraphrase Game of Thrones.... "You know nothing Icegoat."
I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.
I paid a bits company £20 for Drazhar, and £25 for the five Incubi, which is broadly what I expect GW will charge when they eventually get around to selling them outside of the box set.
Rules-wise, Drazhar is now great, while the Incubi have gone from poor to pretty good, albeit with some delivery issues. Interestingly, Incubi are probably best as Ynnari, with Drazhar (in an allied detachment) buffing them.
I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed. This one is basically still available everywhere evry independent stockists has multiple copies left. Its lingered like a bad smell a stain on the release schedule. I'm surprised the independent stockists don't drop the price but they never seem to with warhammer. It means that gw are unlikely to release the two units at separate boxes for a long old while which is another nail in the coffin for updating the rest of the range.
Icegoat wrote: I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.
that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.
Most of the Dual-Boxes have sold well. Blood of the Phoenix and Wrath and Rapture appear to be the exception. Carrion Empire, Looncurse, and most of the AoS boxes(except for Wrath and Rapture) sold out like hotcakes. They've also been super good deals or had new models that were a bargain.
Ultimately the 40k side of things has a problem that the boxes have a lot of old and aging models no one wants being shovelled onto the masses. It's why the Dual Boxes with the Primaris are selling okay as there are a lot of newer models that people want to get cheap in there. I bought Wake the Dead mostly for the Primaris even if I am primarily a Craftworld player. Tooth and Claw was an awesome box as it contained mostly newer units except for the Genestealer unt.
Then you have abominations like Blood of the Phoenix that has a twofold problem. First it has some of the oldest(Vyper, Falcon) and bad(Vyper, Falcon, Hellions) units of the bunch. Second, it contains new sculpts of units that have already existed for eons and most people have a plethora of. This means that very few are going to pay a premium just to get updates of existing sculpts. In this case single pack releases would have been much smarter.
I sincerely hope BotP was a lesson learned for GW. That you can't shovel crap onto people at a premium just because you added a new sculpt or two. Sadly I fear they will not have learned that lesson.
Icegoat wrote: I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.
that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.
Wow, so the only other battle box that hasn't sold out within a month of realease is the other trash one?
Icegoat wrote: I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.
that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.
Wow, so the only other battle box that hasn't sold out within a month of realease is the other trash one?
except thats not true, they useall have a bit more leg then that, (I could actually order shadowspear on the GW site as late as december)
and even if they did all sell out within the first month. you said "Sold out before the pre order window closed"
harlokin wrote: I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.
I paid a bits company £20 for Drazhar, and £25 for the five Incubi, which is broadly what I expect GW will charge when they eventually get around to selling them outside of the box set.
Rules-wise, Drazhar is now great, while the Incubi have gone from poor to pretty good, albeit with some delivery issues. Interestingly, Incubi are probably best as Ynnari, with Drazhar (in an allied detachment) buffing them.
That's complete bollocks. There's nothing "true" about you coward vat-born hedonists.
I first off, I understand the frustration with waiting for separates- Sisters are going through it right now- we can get repentia in the box but not separate. It sucks.
I've been waiting 2 months. DE have been waiting 4. Feels like forever when you want the models, but that's a heartbeat in 40k time.
You know I've been playing since 1989, right?
Okay, now let's talk about models. Neither faction got "new" models, but both factions got a new sculpt of both a unit and a character, and I believe all four units knocked off finecast units. No other faction has had a character and a unit for PA.
And before you mention the Admech hotness, not all of those units are PA units- there will either be a codex 2.0 or a new box or both... Though I suppose it is possible that it will be another box like Blood of the Phoenix...Except with new units. Only time will tell. But as of this precise moment, I'm pretty sure it's accurate that they have so far done the best model wise- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Last model topic? Drazhar sculpt. If you like the old one better, well I'm glad you already have one, and I respect your opinion. Personally? The only model in the DE range I liked less than the original Drazhar were the grotesques. The whole "waist that's as thick my thigh" look really didn't cut for me. But again, opinion.
Now let's talk rules.
Because of PA, Drazhar gained 1 wound, and both of his weapon options automatically do an extra point of damage and he gained the ability to do an additional 2 damage on a to wound. Now you can say that didn't go as far as you wanted it to go, or that it's not as powerful as Space Marines got, but what you can't say is that this is an insignificant buff.
Incubi? Didn't get a stat bump, but the whole unit does +2 damage on wound rolls of 6+, not just the Klaivex. Also, speaking of the Klaivex, he picked up demi-klaives as an option, and the +2 attacks helps get more magic 6's. So again, not broken like some of the marine 2.0, but you really can't say that isn't a decent improvement.
On the CWE side, it doesn't look as improved; I thought I remembered the Community article mentioning an increase to the profile, and the way they talked about acrobatic like it was a new ability. At the time I bought PA, I didn't have the CWE dex. I've picked up since, and just did my first comparison and it looks like the Triskele is actually the only difference in either profile.
Their exarchs did get an improvement to their powers. This isn't as good as the DE improvements on the models in the box, but on the plus side, exarchs of ALL shrines got the improvement, whereas DE only got improvement to models in the box. Not all of the powers are better than the originals, but you can really wag the synergy with some of the new craftworld traits, etc.
In terms of being playable out of the box, I get that complaint, but I'm not sure I buy it. The most common complaint I've seen seems to be the inclusion of units that everyone already has; if you actually made the factions playable out of the box, you would likely increase this problem. So which do you want more? Playable detachments, or models that people a less likely to already own?
Should they have chosen different models to sculpt? Maybe. People talk about the characters DE lost, and I feel that. I LOVED Sathonyx in particular, but also Malys, Sliscuss, and Keradruahk. But I don't believe any of them ever had models. I know many are afraid that without rules in print, there's no hope at all. I choose not to believe that. I waited since 1995 for Genestealer Cult and 2003 for Sisters.
8th gave me both. It will give me DE love. I just have to have faith. This is why I freak out every time someone advocates for a 9th ed, especially when they suggest a hard reset kinda 9th rather than a transition 9th. While my faith might survive the former, if the latter occurs, I'll join you in hopeless pessimism.
The DE in the set are a great thematic compliment to a start collecting box because of wych units. I love Hellions, not necessarily because they're great competitively, but because I think they're cool on a conceptual level, and no wych cult is really complete without them.22 While the battlebox was still available, it brought the Kabals to the table.
This post is already way too long, so I just gonna wrap it up here. Hope my opinions don't sound like they disrespect yours.
I first off, I understand the frustration with waiting for separates- Sisters are going through it right now- we can get repentia in the box but not separate. It sucks.
I've been waiting 2 months. DE have been waiting 4. Feels like forever when you want the models, but that's a heartbeat in 40k time.
You know I've been playing since 1989, right?
Okay, now let's talk about models. Neither faction got "new" models, but both factions got a new sculpt of both a unit and a character, and I believe all four units knocked off finecast units. No other faction has had a character and a unit for PA.
And before you mention the Admech hotness, not all of those units are PA units- there will either be a codex 2.0 or a new box or both... Though I suppose it is possible that it will be another box like Blood of the Phoenix...Except with new units. Only time will tell. But as of this precise moment, I'm pretty sure it's accurate that they have so far done the best model wise- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Last model topic? Drazhar sculpt. If you like the old one better, well I'm glad you already have one, and I respect your opinion. Personally? The only model in the DE range I liked less than the original Drazhar were the grotesques. The whole "waist that's as thick my thigh" look really didn't cut for me. But again, opinion.
Now let's talk rules.
Because of PA, Drazhar gained 1 wound, and both of his weapon options automatically do an extra point of damage and he gained the ability to do an additional 2 damage on a to wound. Now you can say that didn't go as far as you wanted it to go, or that it's not as powerful as Space Marines got, but what you can't say is that this is an insignificant buff.
Incubi? Didn't get a stat bump, but the whole unit does +2 damage on wound rolls of 6+, not just the Klaivex. Also, speaking of the Klaivex, he picked up demi-klaives as an option, and the +2 attacks helps get more magic 6's. So again, not broken like some of the marine 2.0, but you really can't say that isn't a decent improvement.
On the CWE side, it doesn't look as improved; I thought I remembered the Community article mentioning an increase to the profile, and the way they talked about acrobatic like it was a new ability. At the time I bought PA, I didn't have the CWE dex. I've picked up since, and just did my first comparison and it looks like the Triskele is actually the only difference in either profile.
Their exarchs did get an improvement to their powers. This isn't as good as the DE improvements on the models in the box, but on the plus side, exarchs of ALL shrines got the improvement, whereas DE only got improvement to models in the box. Not all of the powers are better than the originals, but you can really wag the synergy with some of the new craftworld traits, etc.
In terms of being playable out of the box, I get that complaint, but I'm not sure I buy it. The most common complaint I've seen seems to be the inclusion of units that everyone already has; if you actually made the factions playable out of the box, you would likely increase this problem. So which do you want more? Playable detachments, or models that people a less likely to already own?
Should they have chosen different models to sculpt? Maybe. People talk about the characters DE lost, and I feel that. I LOVED Sathonyx in particular, but also Malys, Sliscuss, and Keradruahk. But I don't believe any of them ever had models. I know many are afraid that without rules in print, there's no hope at all. I choose not to believe that. I waited since 1995 for Genestealer Cult and 2003 for Sisters.
8th gave me both. It will give me DE love. I just have to have faith. This is why I freak out every time someone advocates for a 9th ed, especially when they suggest a hard reset kinda 9th rather than a transition 9th. While my faith might survive the former, if the latter occurs, I'll join you in hopeless pessimism.
The DE in the set are a great thematic compliment to a start collecting box because of wych units. I love Hellions, not necessarily because they're great competitively, but because I think they're cool on a conceptual level, and no wych cult is really complete without them.22 While the battlebox was still available, it brought the Kabals to the table.
This post is already way too long, so I just gonna wrap it up here. Hope my opinions don't sound like they disrespect yours.
Peace.
And for all that greatness? This box offered me (practically) nothing.
It's full of stuff I've already got enough of AND stuff I don't want.
Icegoat wrote: I think the reason we still talking about it is most battleboxes have sold out well before the pre order window closed.
that's complete bs, the only battlebox in recent memory that sold out that fast was sisters of battle (which was a new army and had a codex) all the others took a bit to completely sell out. you can still buy wraith and rapture off GW for god's sake.
Wow, so the only other battle box that hasn't sold out within a month of realease is the other trash one?
except thats not true, they useall have a bit more leg then that, (I could actually order shadowspear on the GW site as late as december)
and even if they did all sell out within the first month. you said "Sold out before the pre order window closed"
Thats you right now buddy
You will find out you're talking to two different people, and I wasn't the one that made the "before preorder" comment, my good friend and husband to be.
harlokin wrote: I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.
If CWE are popular, their player base has not shown GW such. I'm not saying this boxed set was worth buying by any stretch but the lack of sales should be worrying.
No CWE players I know purchased this set. Many have no desire to get Banshees even when they are released separately because they already have models. They've purchased finecast or metal models years ago to make their squads and they don't need more. Jain Zar isn't spectacular on the table so they have little desire for her either.
The numbers of BotP boxes sitting on shelves seems to confirm this anecdotal evidence.
The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.
Looking ad the goblin gaming Drukhari force is in state awaiting delivery and lood angels and Wolfs boxes are in stock. Maybe if they released the Phoenix box 30 gbp cheaper it could have sold without issue.
Last year CWE battleforce was sold super quick without issue and appocalypse box full of wraith was having issues, because the units were not good enough.
It was a set for people that were okey with paying 280$ or more for two heroes and two units. Looks like the number of people willing to do stuff like that was no so big.
I just think eldar are outdated and played out as a concept age of sigmar has taken aelves in new directions some have worked some haven't. Exodites would sell five thousand fold better than any release cwe or de could come up with.i actually know of no one in my area who collects dark eldar or plays them.no one.they are way to niche to survive much longer.
Icegoat wrote: I just think eldar are outdated and played out as a concept age of sigmar has taken aelves in new directions some have worked some haven't. Exodites would sell five thousand fold better than any release cwe or de could come up with.i actually know of no one in my area who collects dark eldar or plays them.no one.they are way to niche to survive much longer.
Well obviously your "area" is the nexus of all opinion.
Pray tell what music the denizens of your abode enjoy most. I'd hate to think I was listening to the wrong kind.
The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.
You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.
The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.
You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.
Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?
At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.
I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.
Maybe GW should hold off on making assumptions about how well Aspect Warriors and Phoenix Lords sell until they actually release them separately outside of a box set with the lowest price to value ratio in recent memory.
Burnage wrote: Maybe GW should hold off on making assumptions about how well Aspect Warriors and Phoenix Lords sell until they actually release them separately outside of a box set with the lowest price to value ratio in recent memory.
That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.
The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.
You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.
Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?
At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.
I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.
You do realize that purchasing everything like that is just rewarding bad behaviour. It also exempts GW from any rational agency. Also, you buying everything just signals GW that there are whales among the fish who will buy everything. Whales are good(companies love them because they will literally buy poo if the company made it) but they do not provide a reliable pattern or signs of popularity.
What happened is that GW was testing the upper limit of what they could charge for a box and it failed. That was a learning lesson for GW and boxes after that have remained at a lower price range.
The true test of whether the updated aspects will sell is when they release the single packs at their normal price range.
Cronch wrote: That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.
Sure, hasn't stopped GW from beeing anticonsumer ever since.
And it's also not the first exemple of a heavy de-investment cycle befalling an faction in 40k, considering SoB which GW was surprised for the demand.
People have to start divorcing GW Kirby from GW Roundtree. GW Kirby was the height of anti-consumer behaviour. GW Roundtree has so far shown to be hundred times more consumer friendly. Are they perfect? No, but times have changed considerably.
The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.
You're blaming the customer that the company doesn't put out a product worth purchasing in their eyes? GW shown they are willing to put absolute bare minimum in redesigning the eldar.
Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?
At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.
I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.
truthfully the Ork Buggys, (and from what little we've seen of Ghaz) are such nice looking minis, even if you're not going to USE them, there is something to be said for their qualities as display pieces in a cabinet.
but yeah you're absolutely right, GW goes where the money is. I don't think it's a coincidance that since 8th edition launched GW's focused heavily on new armies. If you accept that Primaris Marines are "de facto" a new army range (it just happens to be one based on and attached to space marines, GW's best selling model range over all) then for the first 2 years of 8th edition the focus has largely been on new armies.
we're seeing some signs that GW is now poised, however, to return their eyes to old time classic armies, with the CSM update. But I bet the folks pushing for a return to the old classic stuff need some sort of solid data to bring to the beancounters.
Nope, simply stating facts. I don't think the Banshee and Jain Zar release was the bare minimum either. The bare minimum is nothing. Banshees, Jain Zar and Incubi were all great sculpts. You can't blame GW for not investing in more plastic aspects if people don't buy the plastic aspects they've updated. Why would they?
At the end of the day, if consumers don't give GW buying signals they will not invest time in what they want. I purchased one of every Ork buggy when they released, despite their awful rules, because I wanted to show there was a market for new Ork models. I also purchased the Speed Freeks set, despite owning more than enough bikes for a similar reason.
I'll buy Ghazzy, even if he is locked to Goff's (that I don't play) and if his rules are garbage - I'll simply field him as something else in friendly games.
okey, but what signals are people suppose to give GW? If you buy stuff, then GW will think that no matter what they do people will buy a product anyway. If they don't buy it, then GW will think that this means there is no money to make at of the frenchise and stop supporting a given faction.
Eldarsif wrote: People have to start divorcing GW Kirby from GW Roundtree. GW Kirby was the height of anti-consumer behaviour. GW Roundtree has so far shown to be hundred times more consumer friendly. Are they perfect? No, but times have changed considerably.
#kirbysurvivor
Roundtree GW has a better PR department, and toned down the actively hostile anti-consumer practices to merely "normal" anti-consumer behavior we've come to expect from GW over the three decades. It's in no way a consumer-friendly company when it comes to packaging and accessibility.
But wouldn't the difference only be noticed by people that played for more then one edition. I have not played when this kirby was the main man of GW. Why should I care that GW now is better then it was before, specially as I don't know why this kirby guy left.
For a new player w40k is full of traps, bad buys and stuff like we will make you spend so much, that you will never leave out of fear of sunken costs in to the game. I get that GW wants to do money, nothing good about it. But it would be better if they made money on making good stuff, people want, and not acting if w40k was a mobile game.
the put an HQ or unit you may want in to a 280 box full of models you don't want, with no way to get that model outside of that big box.
they make start collecting boxs full with bad units you will never use. Even the big box starters they cut in a such a way, that to use the venguard marines example, as a hero you get that model no one wants or ever uses, but the units like the librarian you have to buy separate. How about oblits being only in big boxs. units like havocks coming with a single of a new weapon, when most marine players are going to have multiples of the other ones. Units not having functioning legal load outs out of the box. Csm bieng split in to half melee or half bolter, so if you want to have 10 bolter or 10 ccw marines you need to buy 2 boxs to get one unit.
melee upgrades for intercessors only as separate kits, but they come with different weapons. So if you want a thunder hammer on your sgts you have to buy two sprues, one for the weapon and another for the shoulder pads.
Ignoring the most obvious, that being hero units available only in limited run battleboxes, there's also the fact that most units don't come with all the options in box. They occasionally get it right, but more often than not it's 1 weapon of each type, even if the unit can take double of the same. Or packing units in say, 5-man boxes when their size is exactly the same as similar units that have 10-model boxes simply because they're "elite" units, which makes the player pay for abstract utility (liable to change at any moment's notice) vs actual cost.
harlokin wrote: I suspect that CWE are still the most popular of the xenos armies and are quite safe from squatting. The True Kin are more niche, but can't see any profit in getting rid of a fairly modern range of models.
If CWE are popular, their player base has not shown GW such. I'm not saying this boxed set was worth buying by any stretch but the lack of sales should be worrying.
No CWE players I know purchased this set. Many have no desire to get Banshees even when they are released separately because they already have models. They've purchased finecast or metal models years ago to make their squads and they don't need more. Jain Zar isn't spectacular on the table so they have little desire for her either.
The numbers of BotP boxes sitting on shelves seems to confirm this anecdotal evidence.
The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.
So if GW put out a 250$ box set with a resculpted plastic 5-man squad of Kommandos and like...a deff dread, a battlewagon, a squad of nobz, the plastic painboy and a squad of stormboyz you'd rush out and buy it to show what a good little boy you are and how they should make new ork stuff?
I'm sure you ran out and bought at LEAST three of all the new buggies to show your support, no matter what the rules for them were. Because if Banshees aren't squigbuggy levels of bad they're at least boomdakka snazzwagon levels of bad.
we've got four players who play eldar factions. One person bought the new drazar off a scalper on ebay, and everyone else is waiting for the individual kits. That's it. It's just kind of a gak boxset.
You know what they could've done to give people stuff they don't already have AND usable miniatures? Made the Drukhari side of the boxset Haemonculus Coven themed. Haemonculi, Wracks, Talos/Cronos are all in plastic and they've NEVER been in a discounted box. Wracks were out of stock for ages after 8th dropped.
The eldar side is tricker since they have like...six nice looking newer plastic kits total. Most of their range is around the age of the current Cadian sculpts.
Eldarsif wrote: People have to start divorcing GW Kirby from GW Roundtree. GW Kirby was the height of anti-consumer behaviour. GW Roundtree has so far shown to be hundred times more consumer friendly. Are they perfect? No, but times have changed considerably.
#kirbysurvivor
Oh yeah, its a big difference for sure (a good one)
Okey, but this like some mental trick being played on people that had to buy under this kirby guy, because what GW is doing now can not be called good in any shape or form. I struggle to even imagine how bad it had to be, for people to think what is now is good.
2 things,
Has GW in any way stated anything about the Eldar range, or are people having wild expectations again?
Secondly, didn't it only release as a box in October? Less than 6 months ago? What's the panic about?
BroodSpawn wrote: 2 things,
Has GW in any way stated anything about the Eldar range, or are people having wild expectations again?
Secondly, didn't it only release as a box in October? Less than 6 months ago? What's the panic about?
There isnt panic. There's a fella stirring the pot for their own amusement.
BroodSpawn wrote: 2 things,
Has GW in any way stated anything about the Eldar range, or are people having wild expectations again?
Secondly, didn't it only release as a box in October? Less than 6 months ago? What's the panic about?
well some people play a year or so, so telling them that a wait of 6 months is nothing long can be a problem. Even if GW fixs stuff they may no longer be playing. How many bad armies players are there 5-6 years after they became bad, or waiting the same time for a specific model they want.
Yeah when people say packaging I'm thinking the plastic wrapper, card and sprue rather than the actual release rate of models or the number of models or the cost of models.
Cronch wrote: That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.
I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?
Eldarsif wrote: You do realize that purchasing everything like that is just rewarding bad behaviour. It also exempts GW from any rational agency. Also, you buying everything just signals GW that there are whales among the fish who will buy everything. Whales are good(companies love them because they will literally buy poo if the company made it) but they do not provide a reliable pattern or signs of popularity.
If you consider updating models "bad behaviour" then - I guess? As I said, I know no CWE players that are in any particular rush to get Banshees or Jain Zar even when they're released separately. I don't think you understand the "whale" analogy. Whales buy more, yes. They will not buy anything simply because GW make it. I certainly don't. I buy the Ork kits though, because I want GW to make more and it is one of the only ways I can try and encourage them to do so.
What happened is that GW was testing the upper limit of what they could charge for a box and it failed. That was a learning lesson for GW and boxes after that have remained at a lower price range.
Source? Because boxes before were less expensive and there's nothing to say that future boxes won't be just as expensive.
The true test of whether the updated aspects will sell is when they release the single packs at their normal price range.
I suppose, but as I said my anecdotal evidence tells me the answer is 'no', unfortunately (because I'd love to see the CWE line updated - my first army was CWE).
BrianDavion wrote: truthfully the Ork Buggys, (and from what little we've seen of Ghaz) are such nice looking minis, even if you're not going to USE them, there is something to be said for their qualities as display pieces in a cabinet.
They are beautiful, for sure, but also monopose (which is like heresy for Ork players).
we're seeing some signs that GW is now poised, however, to return their eyes to old time classic armies, with the CSM update. But I bet the folks pushing for a return to the old classic stuff need some sort of solid data to bring to the beancounters.
Which is interesting, right, because Sisters will probably show a resounding success in terms of "returning to old classic stuff" while Eldar is going to look somewhat lacklustre (I guess)?
the_scotsman wrote: So if GW put out a 250$ box set with a resculpted plastic 5-man squad of Kommandos and like...a deff dread, a battlewagon, a squad of nobz, the plastic painboy and a squad of stormboyz you'd rush out and buy it to show what a good little boy you are and how they should make new ork stuff?
BotP was £140 here which is a much easier pill to swallow, particularly when you add the 10-20% discount from Element Games and the like. I probably would buy the set, yea. Even as I consider this fictional situation though I'm thinking how I'd convert the Deff Dread, the Painboy to be something more to my needs so I suppose the situation isn't quite transferable for an Ork player who can kitbash for days.
I'm sure you ran out and bought at LEAST three of all the new buggies to show your support, no matter what the rules for them were. Because if Banshees aren't squigbuggy levels of bad they're at least boomdakka snazzwagon levels of bad.
I purchased 1 of each excluding the Squigbuggy (but I can't be bothered to write this every time I make the point). I'm currently painting the Boomdakka. I play against Banshees fairly often and I think players hugely underestimate their usefulness in terms of locking the opponent in their deployment zone (but that's not a conversation for this topic, really).
You know what they could've done to give people stuff they don't already have AND usable miniatures? Made the Drukhari side of the boxset Haemonculus Coven themed. Haemonculi, Wracks, Talos/Cronos are all in plastic and they've NEVER been in a discounted box. Wracks were out of stock for ages after 8th dropped..
They could've done a lot of things, but these boxed sets have rarely been about giving players stuff they don't already have and more about bringing in new players to the faction by offering a perceived discount on product.
Listen guys, I'm not saying this is good practice, fair or morally right. What I am saying is that GW is a business interested in making profit above all else (like all other businesses). The only power you have as a consumer to try and encourage GW to make what models you want them to make is to put your money where your mouth is. Other than that you can give them feedback in their community survey and hope they respond. That is it. Also know that your purchases (or lack thereof) are a drop in a massive ocean that likely mean very, very little to GW.
I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?
I'd maybe agree if there was any chance in hell marine fanboys don't already outnumber the few desperate/in denial xenos players left by such a number that marine releases will always outsell everything else. As it is, your "sacrifice" is pointless and just pads out GW bottom line.
It's funny, at my local gw we don't seem to get any marine players except me running my salamander army very occasionally. Well, one guy runs dark angels occasionally.
There's all sorts of chaos, imperium and xenos players but not marines, I know the marine stuff sells well in the store but not to the people who come down to the Thursday night games.
for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.
Instead it’s a neglect where they seem more interested in killing interest than keeping it. And at some point I wonder if they are really as incompetent and disinterested as they often seem for some races rather than hostile to them.
It almost feels like a bit of punishment for not liking yennari as a player base :p
Even if it was available (which it isn't). It's still a codex unit, packaged in a Kill Team box, with extra stuff most GSC players don't need. Now we have to pay the eBay price for it which is lame. So yeah their packaging stuff nobody wants with a single model that people do want goes well beyond just Eldar.
I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?
I'd maybe agree if there was any chance in hell marine fanboys don't already outnumber the few desperate/in denial xenos players left by such a number that marine releases will always outsell everything else. As it is, your "sacrifice" is pointless and just pads out GW bottom line.
Sure, except no one expects eldar to outsell Marines, and GW knows they don't. (it's why Marines get so many releases) but something to register intreast is definatly a factor.
I completely agree but it's also where we're at, unless you want a million more Marine models released. For every CWE player not willing to buy BotP there's like 5 or 6 Marine players picking up every character model GW feeds them, no matter how bland and uninspired. Who are GW going to focus on?
I'd maybe agree if there was any chance in hell marine fanboys don't already outnumber the few desperate/in denial xenos players left by such a number that marine releases will always outsell everything else. As it is, your "sacrifice" is pointless and just pads out GW bottom line.
Sure, except no one expects eldar to outsell Marines, and GW knows they don't. (it's why Marines get so many releases) but something to register intreast is definatly a factor.
It's weird, we put out this highly requested 5-man plastic kit in a 250$ box set and it sold TERRIBLY compared to this squad kit of sisters we put out in an individually packaged box AND compared to the huge army box containing entirely new miniatures!
This must mean people hate Eldar, love Sisters, and love our practice of packaging everything in giant expensive army boxes!
It CAN'T have anything to do with the differences between these two situations!
Apple fox wrote: for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.
except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.
here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?
beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.
I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.
they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons
Truly, its a mystery why GW don't release the Banshees/Incubi/Jain Zar/Drazhar sculpts separately while piles of them sit on shelves in BotP boxes around the country. I just wish we knew what they were thinking?! What could their reason be; to keep those new sculpts available only in a boxed set that totally hasn't sold out at all? Oh well, I guess we'll never know.
Cronch wrote: That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.
People are making a lot of assumptions about GW's future actions. Certainly sales figures play a role in future business decisions, but I'm sure they're not dumb as a post.
Everything in that box has its very own sprue, which means they'll release a box on its own in the future. Do people believe they're just going to let those molds rot?
Cronch wrote: That's...a horrible, bizarre, and so incredibly anti-consumer attitude. It's on the company to provide a desirable product, not on the customer to beg the company for scraps as you suggest.
People are making a lot of assumptions about GW's future actions. Certainly sales figures play a role in future business decisions, but I'm sure they're not dumb as a post.
Everything in that box has its very own sprue, which means they'll release a box on its own in the future. Do people believe they're just going to let those molds rot?
I think the point is that the act of withholding the new models to provide incentive to sell some rather highly priced boxset is rather anti-consumer in itself. You can reason why they would do it in a business sense, but as a consumer, I'm not going to pay the price to line Games Workshop's pockets.
the individual sprue will not release for a very very long time.the aos battleboxes sold out within hours and they contained lynchpin characters for multiple armies and they haven't been released and it's been over a year. people need to be buying the battleboxes for the new stuff. That's what gw wants and it will keep pushing this practise. It is strongly anti consumer and just aids Ebay scalpers but gw and being anti consumer go hand in hand. I think everyone can see botp is an outlier a tragic failure of a battlebox. And I believe it has doomed the entire rest of the two armies ranges.
Rule of sales, if you want people to buy stuff, don't over price and fill it with un wanted crap. They held the new models hostage and they could have made a killing on those kits sold on their own. They made the box over the top costly to boot with poor selection of units, of course it would sell poorly. That has nothing to do with the new kits and the line as a whole.
If they released a huge guard box with mostly just old infantry squads and heavy weapon teams for a huge bloated price with maybe a one new kit in it of a character and say new ratlings, I bet they'd sell like crap too as most guard players have men by the bucket loads already.
This was a problem GW made for themselves. and highlights nothing but how dim they are as to what the people want.
Almost with how poorly they predicted how many people wanted the sisters release of new models for that collectors box. They are more in touch with us all these days yet still worlds away with understanding us which is their problem.
An Actual Englishman wrote: [
The problem here is that CWE players are effectively showing GW that there's no financial benefit releasing new aspect warrior sculpts (something I believe they thought anyway which is why it's taken so long). This in turn means there's less chance of plastic aspect warriors and in a way the CWE players are to blame.
please don't bypass the language filter like this.
Reds8n
GW wants to sell me plastic Aspect warriors & associated Phoenix Lords? Then they can damned well release some new Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, or Scorpions. Maybe Dire Avengers. Until then I'm good. I'll wait.
No Eldar player is to blame for not buying that box. Any statement of this is completely asinine at its face. If a company tries to do you dirty, you're not supposed to say " please sir, may I have some more ? " You vote with the wallet and say, no. It isn't their fault they won't pay a bloated price for crap they don't need and frankly to suggest they get what they get because they wouldn't just buy whatever GW puts out for their faction is insane.
Of course you can vote with your wallet and say 'no, I'm not buying this thing you're trying to sell me GW'.
You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
"Why aren't GW making more of that product that didn't sell well at all?" Is probably one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. Why GW are electing not to release the kits from BotP while stocks of the box sit on shelves should also be obvious.
E - to be clear I'm not trying to put the blame on Eldar players here, but I think some of you need to look at it from GW's perspective. They release a boxed set with 2 new character sculpts and 2 new unit sculpts and the set totally bombs. Meanwhile there are sets released with less new sculpts that sit around a similar price range (Forgebane immediately springs to mind) and they fly off the shelf. I really wouldn't be surprised if GW don't release plastic aspects for a long time, most Eldar players have more aspect warriors than they need, there is a huge secondary market and the boxed set used to gauge interest bombed. As far as GW are concerned - all the data they've gathered all but confirms the demand for such products is low.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
Then perhaps GW should listen to what its non-Marine customers actually want, rather than just shoving models no one asked for into hilariously overpriced boxes.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
Then perhaps GW should listen to what its non-Marine customers actually want, rather than just shoving models no one asked for into hilariously overpriced boxes.
As I have said above - similar priced boxes with less new models sold far better. Proving there's little market for Eldar units is not an exercise that's going to get the faction more models.
Which similarly priced boxes that have 2x 20 year old kits and less new models have sold better? This price tag was utterly disgusting.. What's even been priced similarly ? Like everyone apart from you agrees it was ridiculous.
And yeah I got BOTP with a DE player which split in half... But thats mainly because my army was actualy missing banshees as I was hunting for metals. So there was some value TO ME.
But if anyone has collected eldar for longer than a year or two? This box has zero value to buy of the shelf even a discount. You are better off getting the new sculpts of a re-seller thats how bad it is.. See, if they put in like a squad of 10 Dire avengers or even 10 guardians instead of the vyper and a wave serpent instead of the falcon, heck even leave the falcon... Then it would be great value for money+utility at that price and I guarantee it would sell a lot more. Also the box should have included the PR book at the very least at that price point...
I can't comment on the DE side. It had 0 value to me.
Apple fox wrote: for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.
except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.
here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?
beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.
I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.
they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons
First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.
Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
Then perhaps GW should listen to what its non-Marine customers actually want, rather than just shoving models no one asked for into hilariously overpriced boxes.
As I have said above - similar priced boxes with less new models sold far better. Proving there's little market for Eldar units is not an exercise that's going to get the faction more models.
These similar boxes were considerably cheaper than Blood of the Phoenix - most were around the £95 to £100 mark. The fact that they jacked the price up to £140 for what is essentially a similar box in terms of model count was one of the major problems with BotP. As somebody said earlier in the thread, it felt like they were testing the waters for what they could get away with charging for one of these boxes, and hopefully the fact that it didn't sell will mean that future battle boxes won't be priced quite so absurdly. Even the entirely-brand-new models Shadowspear was, what, £110? £115? So I don't buy the fact that there were two new characters and two new units somehow justifying the £140 price tag for BotP.
I'm a Craftworlds collector, and I've got 20 metal banshees already. And yet I'd absolutely love to build a full 10-elf squad of the new ones, and get my hands on Jain Zar. But I can't get 10 banshees without buying two copies of the box. I only need one Jain Zar, I've already got more Falcons and Vypers than I'm ever going to need, I'm not interested in the DE half in the slightest, I don't know any DE players to split with and can't be bothered with trying to sell the bits I don't want. And yet - if the box had been priced more in line with the previous ones, I might have picked up a copy. I picked up Wake the Dead on preorder because it was much more reasonably priced and everything in the Eldar half was something I wanted. The price was reasonable enough that I didn't mind paying it just for the Eldar - the Primaris are still on sprue on my shelf. I might have applied similar logic to BotP if the price hadn't been so high.
So I decided to wait until they're released separately, and I get the impression that many Craftworld/DE collectors have done the same. I'll admit I was a bit worried about what sort of impression it would leave that this box wasn't selling, whether GW would get the impression that people weren't interested in the new Eldar rather than simply not being interested in a bad box set. A fair number of Eldar players dropped emails to GW customer service to explain why they weren't buying it, in a bit of an effort to show that the market for the new models was there, just not for the BotP box. I did the same - I have no idea what sort of an impact it might have, but it was better than nothing.
Now I fully expect we'll have to wait ages for the standalone releases, because if BotP isn't selling now, then why on earth would it sell once the formerly-exclusive models are available separately? But I'd expect that once the standalone releases are out, they'll sell considerably better.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Of course you can vote with your wallet and say 'no, I'm not buying this thing you're trying to sell me GW'.
You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
A real company, run by real people instead of muppets, would probably spend some time and money to research as to why their high-profile box with new models failed instead of assuming "people dun like it".
Freaking McDonalds researches why certain menu items didn't sell!
An Actual Englishman wrote: You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
Then perhaps GW should listen to what its non-Marine customers actually want, rather than just shoving models no one asked for into hilariously overpriced boxes.
you say that like Marine players are always listened to. for every new unit Marine players get that is what we want, there's a half dozen marine units thats nom asked for.
I think the reason Banshees where chosen for a resculpt BTW is because they're one of the more visually impressive aspect warriors
An Actual Englishman wrote: You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
Then perhaps GW should listen to what its non-Marine customers actually want, rather than just shoving models no one asked for into hilariously overpriced boxes.
you say that like Marine players are always listened to. for every new unit Marine players get that is what we want, there's a half dozen marine units thats nom asked for.
I think the reason Banshees where chosen for a resculpt BTW is because they're one of the more visually impressive aspect warriors
For the record, it's not the Banshees I take issue with.
Total: $395
Actual price for BotP: $280
Savings: $115
Note that I low balled the price for JZ & D as well as the Incubi.and Banshees, putting prices in line with their resin competition rather than anticipating the cost once these boxes are released as separates, meaning that the actual savings will be $20-40 higher.
So you can argue about how you think the box would have sold more if they swapped unit a with unit b, or that it would have sold better if a few of the older units had just been left out in order to achieve a lower cost. This is almost certainly true.
But what you can't do is suggest that combining the models increased the cost of the components, because objective reality seems to suggest that it actually resulted in roughly 30% savings.
As for ruining either line, I think that's pretty unrealistic. These boxes will be released as separates, and when they are, sales data will reflect that that it was the combination of old + new + dual faction all in the same box that resulted in poor sales.
I believe BotP was released in October. Four months- it may feel like more, but we've only been waiting four months. To put that in perspective for you, it's 1/99th of the game's total lifespan.
If you wonder why they're waiting, I suspect it's a combination of two factors: the first, as the cynics have pointed out, is that GW is probably trying to squeeze every last sale out of BotP by starving us, but fewer people have cited the other possible reason- they're sculpting other stuff for both ranges and the separates will drop when the other content is ready in order to create synergy.
My hope is a Kill Team drop with Eldar Aspects and DE Mercenary units as kill team boxes with Commorragh and or new Eldar terrain.
Look, this edition doubled down on GSC and Sisters; it gave us Custodes, Death Guard, Thousand Sons all for the first time. They've given us Rogue Traders again. I assure you, DE and CWE will do just fine.
None of this is to say that I don't want more content and soon- of course I do. But I have faith; so far this edition has reaffirmed my faith more than any other. I have been given absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe the trend will end any time soon.
You think the 40 page book in BotP is worth $40, Jake? It isn't the Eldar Psychic Awakening book, but its own thing.
Thousand Sons were 7th ed (with a semi-expansion in 8th), and Custodes also saw their initial release in 7th (though I'd definitely agree they doubled down on Custodes during 8th).
I don;t really consider custodes a 7th edition army, they had a single mini pack introduced in 7th. it wasn't until 8th edition they got a codex, HQs etc.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
Then perhaps GW should listen to what its non-Marine customers actually want, rather than just shoving models no one asked for into hilariously overpriced boxes.
you say that like Marine players are always listened to. for every new unit Marine players get that is what we want, there's a half dozen marine units thats nom asked for.
I think the reason Banshees where chosen for a resculpt BTW is because they're one of the more visually impressive aspect warriors
Artel W released amazing bashees that GW stopped with legal actions. They also have new scorpions, dragons and reapers.
From personal friend i know their resin is better than GW or FW. If you have worked with reapers, you will know what i`m talking about, missing parts of the model and holes.
Don`t you think it`s super strange that this is their first release with 28 mm bases ?
It`s like GW were kind of forced to start renewing the aspect or slowly lose income, cuz of new and more flexible player.
Artel promised to release new rangers, if they do i`ll probably get some, because GW rangers are terrible.
I believe BotP was released in October. Four months- it may feel like more, but we've only been waiting four months. To put that in perspective for you, it's 1/99th of the game's total lifespan.
Imagine your 14-15 and someone tells you that they have to wait half a year to get something. A lot of people quit the game after a CA change to their army, out of the 10+ people that started the game at the same time as I did, only 4 including me, still play. Now I understand that if someone is 40 and plays for 30 years, 4 months doesn't seem like a long time. But it is very much a matter of perspective.
I believe BotP was released in October. Four months- it may feel like more, but we've only been waiting four months. To put that in perspective for you, it's 1/99th of the game's total lifespan.
Imagine your 14-15 and someone tells you that they have to wait half a year to get something. A lot of people quit the game after a CA change to their army, out of the 10+ people that started the game at the same time as I did, only 4 including me, still play. Now I understand that if someone is 40 and plays for 30 years, 4 months doesn't seem like a long time. But it is very much a matter of perspective.
Yes but if you're 14-15 chances are you don't yet own every single Eldar model there is. In fact a delay on release of one model isn't a huge problem because you've got ALL the rest of the army to collect. The old 30-40 player who has bought Eldar for 20 years and HAS everything is the one waiting
An Actual Englishman wrote: Of course you can vote with your wallet and say 'no, I'm not buying this thing you're trying to sell me GW'.
You probably shouldn't expect them to make more of that thing that you didn't buy though?
"Why aren't GW making more of that product that didn't sell well at all?" Is probably one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. Why GW are electing not to release the kits from BotP while stocks of the box sit on shelves should also be obvious.
E - to be clear I'm not trying to put the blame on Eldar players here, but I think some of you need to look at it from GW's perspective. They release a boxed set with 2 new character sculpts and 2 new unit sculpts and the set totally bombs. Meanwhile there are sets released with less new sculpts that sit around a similar price range (Forgebane immediately springs to mind) and they fly off the shelf. I really wouldn't be surprised if GW don't release plastic aspects for a long time, most Eldar players have more aspect warriors than they need, there is a huge secondary market and the boxed set used to gauge interest bombed. As far as GW are concerned - all the data they've gathered all but confirms the demand for such products is low.
Your reasoning is so silly to me. So, to show GW they should make more eldars, we should buy every single thing they make no matter how awful or poorly done they handle it ? How then do you ever let them know they are screwing things up ? You can't keep rewarding crap offerings. GW is pretty stupid sometimes but I even credit them with more brains to just go " Hurr Durr, our crap box is selling badly, guess people don't like Eldars no more ! Shut it down ! " Your theory gives absolutely no way for them to ever be shown how to better their offerings or change for the good of the consumer and not the betterment of their own greed. Why should anyone feel beholden to support them in the hopes they eventually give you things that will finally be good and well thought it because if we don't support poor practices they'll just send us to bed without dinner ?
GW should spend time to look at it from a sellers point of view, it's a buyers market, if you're not offering things worth buying, or holding things that would sell hostage behind stuff that won't move, you aren't doing yourself any favors. I'm not a marketing guru here but this feels super poorly handled and even before the box dropped it had such lukewarm reception you should smell the flop from here, rich and ripe as a meadow muffin.
Edit: As for saying the box saved you money, sure it does. However there is a thing to be said for actually needing the models offered at all. Most people didn't need any of them aside from the new sculpts so any money saved on the box contents means little if you'd be spending less just picking up the new stuff as opposed to box trash you won't ever assemble or use and that is not even mentioning if you don't play both armies. The box was poorly put together, should have been cheaper with less clutter to lower the cost as opposed to be a vehicle to try and move things no one wants for good reason. There is no value in having to spend more to get things you don't need for some of the things you actually want being the smallest sum of the items present.
"GW won't release a new kit for X because it doesn't sell, but it doesn't sell because the kit is so old so they won't release an update but no one is buying it because it is so old etc"
I believe BotP was released in October. Four months- it may feel like more, but we've only been waiting four months. To put that in perspective for you, it's 1/99th of the game's total lifespan.
Imagine your 14-15 and someone tells you that they have to wait half a year to get something. A lot of people quit the game after a CA change to their army, out of the 10+ people that started the game at the same time as I did, only 4 including me, still play. Now I understand that if someone is 40 and plays for 30 years, 4 months doesn't seem like a long time. But it is very much a matter of perspective.
Yes but if you're 14-15 chances are you don't yet own every single Eldar model there is. In fact a delay on release of one model isn't a huge problem because you've got ALL the rest of the army to collect. The old 30-40 player who has bought Eldar for 20 years and HAS everything is the one waiting
Besides, that's horriable logic, by that logic GW shouldn't release any new models and just tell us warhammer 40k is just whatever the hell is in dark Imperium. sure it's a lot less but hey "it's complete! no waiting"
All this is ignoring the flat precedent that GW can and does release units for armies all the time at high speed.
So any argument around this as to why they can't do it for eldar is demonstrably false.
Until GW starts advertising and selling it's products in a way that clearly tells the consumer that non marine armies are fundamentally different and will not receive the kind of ongoing support marines get, they are expected to treat every army the same.
Their armies are like car models - who would buy a model of car if they discovered they had no after sales service, no colour choices, no optional extras, when another one from the same company in the lot right next to it does have all those things and is a similar price?
GW should and will be held accountable for its double standard of product sales by its customers. It borders on false advertising to sell a product like it is equivalent to another one, but its components are sup par, few in number and never released.
Which similarly priced boxes that have 2x 20 year old kits and less new models have sold better? This price tag was utterly disgusting.. What's even been priced similarly ?
Like everyone apart from you agrees it was ridiculous.
Please enlighten me on how you reached that conclusion concerning the price.
Without the book, GWs site shows the set at $230 US dollars.
Based on prices for the content from their site;
Falcon = $55
Vyper = $35
Scourges = $30
Hellions = $30
Venom = $35
-----------
$185 - you'll notice that each side has about $90 worth of stuff, all available in plastic.
That leaves $45 to cover:
New plastic Jan Zaar,
New plastic Drazhar,
5x new plastic Banshees,
5 x new plastic Incubi
That's 1 new plastic character & 1 new plastic unit for each force.
And you know damned well that once released outside this box that each of those characters will be about $30-$35 apiece & each of those squads will be $45-$50.
But let's be optimistic & take my low end guess for each. That still comes out to another $150 worth of stuff at retail. That you just got for about 1/3 of the cost.
So you pay $230 for about $335 worth of stuff (based on retail prices)
The box is fairly priced based on it's contents. If you're in the market for what this set contains, you get about a $100 deal. AND you can get even more off the price if you shop around....
The problem here is not the actual price. It's the content mix.
But please, do explain how you see an issue with the price. Not the content mix, just the actual pricing.
I never said its JUST THE ACTUAL PRICE Maybe quote/read the whole post instead of having a fit of internet rage?
Also you are plucking numbers out of thin air. Compare jain zar to the plastic autarch (£16)or one of the fine cast phoenix lords and the banshees to Dire Avengers(£22)
As countless people have stated, saving on a pile of gak is not a saving.
If we want to argue about the maths of prices then you need to take into account the REAL value of these kits.
Any sane person would take the context of a second hand market and 3rd party sellers into account. Do you know how much falcons and vypers you can buy for? Let me give you a hint. Its not remotely close to what you wrote. I bought a unit of scourges for £12 just for bits for christ sakes..
So yes the problem is the price because of the pile of crap you get for the price you pay.
Argive wrote: I never said its JUST THE ACTUAL PRICE Maybe quote/read the whole post instead of having a fit of internet rage?
Also you are plucking numbers out of thin air. Compare jain zar to the plastic autarch (£16)or one of the fine cast phoenix lords and the banshees to Dire Avengers(£22)
As countless people have stated, saving on a pile of gak is not a saving.
If we want to argue about the maths of prices then you need to take into account the REAL value of these kits.
Any sane person would take the context of a second hand market and 3rd party sellers into account. Do you know how much falcons and vypers you can buy for? Let me give you a hint. Its not remotely close to what you wrote. I bought a unit of scourges for £12 just for bits for christ sakes..
So yes the problem is the price because of the pile of crap you get for the price you pay.
Just to quote you and say you're right on. It isn't a savings at all, if the items offered aren't worth it in the first place and if you don't play both armies especially and can't find someone to take the half you don't use. Ignoring the fact I doubt many people have needed most of these models for quite some time it is cold comfort to say " But I save so much on all this stuff I don't want or need ! " It's a lame sales tactic to move models that are old in some cases and not used in others or already sold most all they would sell in the best circumstance. It's like buying a value meal just for the burger when you don't want or will just toss the other elements with it, it isn't a savings if the other parts are useless to you. I fear our compatriot who is very thrilled with the savings fails to acknowledge that fact that its only a savings in the most narrow of circumstances and to the most selective of customers and that is why this " golden goose " lay unwanted and unloved.
The actual worth of the offered items aren't what GW charge for them. They are a factor of usefulness, availability from other means and straight quality of the offered items. I feel like some people get way too hung up on " But GW says its worth this. " It's a buyers market, if they are useless, they aren't worth anything to most players much less the bloated jacked up prices of GWs full retail.
True. A lot of the start collecting sets are like that. You get some model for free, but you wouldn't want that model in the first place. How many people want a termintor armoured BA captin or a Venguard Primaris Lt.?
Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.
"GW won't release a new kit for X because it doesn't sell, but it doesn't sell because the kit is so old so they won't release an update but no one is buying it because it is so old etc"
And around and around we go!
It’s quite literally the opposite of that.
GW made new models. Few player purchased them. Players still expect more new models for the same faction.
Your reasoning is so silly to me. So, to show GW they should make more eldars, we should buy every single thing they make no matter how awful or poorly done they handle it ? How then do you ever let them know they are screwing things up ? You can't keep rewarding crap offerings. GW is pretty stupid sometimes but I even credit them with more brains to just go " Hurr Durr, our crap box is selling badly, guess people don't like Eldars no more ! Shut it down ! " Your theory gives absolutely no way for them to ever be shown how to better their offerings or change for the good of the consumer and not the betterment of their own greed. Why should anyone feel beholden to support them in the hopes they eventually give you things that will finally be good and well thought it because if we don't support poor practices they'll just send us to bed without dinner ?
GW should spend time to look at it from a sellers point of view, it's a buyers market, if you're not offering things worth buying, or holding things that would sell hostage behind stuff that won't move, you aren't doing yourself any favors. I'm not a marketing guru here but this feels super poorly handled and even before the box dropped it had such lukewarm reception you should smell the flop from here, rich and ripe as a meadow muffin.
People make it sound like GW have committed some heinous sin including the units they did in BotP. The Vyper is a decent, plastic sculpt, despite its age. The Falcon is also plastic and though it’s no Night Spinner/Prism it can easily be converted. Speaking of - I’ve also seen excellent Vyper conversions.
I get it, we all want the best options in a boxed set but I think we also know that’s never going to happen. Perhaps Banshees and Incubi etc shouldn’t have been introduced in a boxed set. The fact is they were. GW probably thought there was enough market to justify it. The way the box has flopped will indicate to them otherwise. BotP itself doesn’t seem too different to any other box. It offers similar savings to all other boxes I’ve seen recently. The complaint is that it offers units people already own that aren’t particularly competitive. Just like every other box.
Again - I’m not trying to blame Eldar players particularly. I just don’t think GW will look inward and think ‘perhaps we fethed up’ - I believe they will instead think ‘the market for new Aspect Warriors and re-imagined Dark Eldar sculpts is small and/or in decline’. I’m assuming this isn’t the message players of those factions wanted to give.
why couldnt the box set be 2 HQs and 1-2 of each unit?
Why does it have to have the book inside and ton of models no one would want. Not the veteran players, because they already have most of those, and not the new players, because new players don't want to experiment with bad models or models they can't make in to a single detachment in case of the DE units.
GW made new models. Few player purchased them. Players still expect more new models for the same faction.
So people should have bought stuff they do not want to buy? For GW this would be a clear sign of people being okey with what they did, and the next box sets would be just like that. It would be like apple products that no one wants to buy.
"GW won't release a new kit for X because it doesn't sell, but it doesn't sell because the kit is so old so they won't release an update but no one is buying it because it is so old etc"
And around and around we go!
It’s quite literally the opposite of that.
GW made new models. Few player purchased them. Players still expect more new models for the same faction.
Your reasoning is so silly to me. So, to show GW they should make more eldars, we should buy every single thing they make no matter how awful or poorly done they handle it ? How then do you ever let them know they are screwing things up ? You can't keep rewarding crap offerings. GW is pretty stupid sometimes but I even credit them with more brains to just go " Hurr Durr, our crap box is selling badly, guess people don't like Eldars no more ! Shut it down ! " Your theory gives absolutely no way for them to ever be shown how to better their offerings or change for the good of the consumer and not the betterment of their own greed. Why should anyone feel beholden to support them in the hopes they eventually give you things that will finally be good and well thought it because if we don't support poor practices they'll just send us to bed without dinner ?
GW should spend time to look at it from a sellers point of view, it's a buyers market, if you're not offering things worth buying, or holding things that would sell hostage behind stuff that won't move, you aren't doing yourself any favors. I'm not a marketing guru here but this feels super poorly handled and even before the box dropped it had such lukewarm reception you should smell the flop from here, rich and ripe as a meadow muffin.
People make it sound like GW have committed some heinous sin including the units they did in BotP. The Vyper is a decent, plastic sculpt, despite its age. The Falcon is also plastic and though it’s no Night Spinner/Prism it can easily be converted. Speaking of - I’ve also seen excellent Vyper conversions.
I get it, we all want the best options in a boxed set but I think we also know that’s never going to happen. Perhaps Banshees and Incubi etc shouldn’t have been introduced in a boxed set. The fact is they were. GW probably thought there was enough market to justify it. The way the box has flopped will indicate to them otherwise. BotP itself doesn’t seem too different to any other box. It offers similar savings to all other boxes I’ve seen recently. The complaint is that it offers units people already own that aren’t particularly competitive. Just like every other box.
Again - I’m not trying to blame Eldar players particularly. I just don’t think GW will look inward and think ‘perhaps we fethed up’ - I believe they will instead think ‘the market for new Aspect Warriors and re-imagined Dark Eldar sculpts is small and/or in decline’. I’m assuming this isn’t the message players of those factions wanted to give.
I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I don't give a wooden penny about where GW chooses to look for blame. If they can't realize they messed up and instead think " No, it's the customers that are out of touch. " They are quite a dumb company. You can't properly gauge a metric of what people want by holding models they may buy behind also having to buy lots of things they may already have/not need/are just bad.
Old players, don't need them, find no savings in the offerings as they're just buying things they have plenty of and still no use for. New players aren't going to find the use in the contents as they don't want to waste money on units that are not ideal when it costs so much to buy each unit as is and some players won't even suggest sub par units to new players period. No one twisted their arm to make them bloat the box up so much the cost would be so high and make people go, eh, maybe not. I doubt people would care about some models they don't want but it's mostly a box of units no one wants or has tons of already and/or can get dirt cheap else where.
The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use. That makes the cost more of an issue. Trying to justify by the GW cost to buy full retail doesn't make it somehow more appealing. I also say not every box offers such a poor selection. Comparing it to the split halves of shadowspear those halves come in cheaper, have options people will actually use and/or useful choices or choices they can't get anywhere else for yet again a much lower cost.
Assuming the company will blame the customers is quite a strange mentality to have, as the customers we have the power to alter company direction in their selling choices. They aren't our dealer and if we don't comply to whatever they do they'll cut us off and we'll go into pains from lack of plastic. It's and I'll say this again, a buyers market, they can shape up their offerings and put out things in cost and quantity we want or we won't buy it and it'll languish on the shelf that is on them. No customer should feel they need to support crap effort just for fear of lacking support. Without our money, they don't exist, without them we will still somehow go on lets not ever get that mixed up.
Maybe this situation shows why primaris happened?
Old players aren't that desperate to pick up rescuplts but have to buy new units.
I'm sure new aspect units would have driven sales of the box much better even if it means older sculpts go untouched.
I would have picked up the Dark Eldar stuff but, I don't play Eldar and the only player I know who does doesn't need those models at all. To clear it up, I mean the NEW Dark Eldar stuff, as the other units I have plenty of but Drazhar I don't have and the incubi I'd have picked up just because I like them.
ccs wrote: [
But please, do explain how you see an issue with the price. Not the content mix, just the actual pricing.
The box was pricier than any previous battlebox, while not offering significantly larger AMOUNT of models included. It had a low perceived value, regardless of official prices of models included. Even if all the models were brand new, I suspect it'd still sell worse than other boxes for that simple reason, the price point was above the "pain point" many people have for hobby purchases.
as someone that maybee wanted to start ynaari and even convert draazhar and etc. but allready had armies and experience in 40k:
Too pricy, other battleboaxes indeed gave you an similar ammount of units for less.
Poor model choices: For a new army the core should be decent of it, this box offeed no decent core according to knive ear budies i have and tactia / data, for the record i am NOT a competitive player but i want to stand a fighting chance in a heavily mixed FLG environment. so double no.
Poor model content: Alot of the kit in there is just OLD plastic, that i can buy if i choose vastly cheaper in the second hand market.
Hellebore wrote: All this is ignoring the flat precedent that GW can and does release units for armies all the time at high speed.
So any argument around this as to why they can't do it for eldar is demonstrably false
since BoTp came out the only substantial army release we've had (beyond their finishing up the overly long drawn out marines release) has been sisters of battle.
Go on, tell sisters of battle players eldar needed updates more then their army did with a straight face.
Cronch wrote: I can, Eldar were a real army for the last 30 years, SoB were as much of a curioso as chaos dwarfs were.
in other words, you're not intreasted in one army so they don't count? ya know I'm not a eldar fan but I'd not begrudge them a new army.what is it with the xenos player entitlement this way you sometimes see?
Apple fox wrote: for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.
except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.
here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?
beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.
I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.
they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons
First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.
Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.
I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic deHQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.
I don't think saying Sisters didn't need an update is a good angle, saying Marines haven't needed all the love for awhile now is pretty right on however.
In all honesty, if Sisters players should feel snubbed it should be that genestealer cults and Ad mech got armies out before they ever got updated. I wondered at that point if sisters would ever be touched on or squatted outright.
Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.
Cronch wrote: Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.
So the oldest remaining faction, that never got supported due to a desinvestment cycle, does not deserve a facelift, but vice versa Eldar complain about a mostly plastic and failcast range that is significantly younger in most cases, has partially the same issues but can't allow that to happen?
Mate, you seriously have wierd preferences.
BE happy because this indicates that at some point you will maybee see the deserved update, but don't be envious . That is not healthy.
Apple fox wrote: for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.
except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.
here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?
beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.
I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.
they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons
First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.
Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.
I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic deHQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.
Heh, I am not saying there has been nothing. But some models last edition is still woeful. 40k is looking long in the tooth for a lot of factions, even sigmar feels they are getting better planed releases. And as said, DE and craftworld are different. So they in this box was still plastic to move on, and all why marines get so many releases.
When I say a single model release, I keen for every faction getting something, just a single model on a semi regular point is huge to keep people invested. I just ignored GW advertisement and look every few years for stuff I may have missed. Or if I see on Dakka for other news.
Cronch wrote: Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.
Sisters are about as similar to current marines as fire dragons are. I mean, they both have power armor, right?
Argive wrote: I never said its JUST THE ACTUAL PRICE Maybe quote/read the whole post instead of having a fit of internet rage?
Also you are plucking numbers out of thin air. Compare jain zar to the plastic autarch (£16)or one of the fine cast phoenix lords and the banshees to Dire Avengers(£22)
As countless people have stated, saving on a pile of gak is not a saving.
If we want to argue about the maths of prices then you need to take into account the REAL value of these kits.
Any sane person would take the context of a second hand market and 3rd party sellers into account. Do you know how much falcons and vypers you can buy for? Let me give you a hint. Its not remotely close to what you wrote. I bought a unit of scourges for £12 just for bits for christ sakes..
So yes the problem is the price because of the pile of crap you get for the price you pay.
You know, you & I aren't talking about the same thing. At all.
As for pulling #s out of thin air? Nope.
The #s I listed come from https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000 The #s for Zar, Drazhar, the Banshees, & the Incubi I based upon looking at similar plastic kits on the same site.
Apple fox wrote: for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.
except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.
here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?
beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.
I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.
they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons
First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.
Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.
I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic deHQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.
Heh, I am not saying there has been nothing. But some models last edition is still woeful. 40k is looking long in the tooth for a lot of factions, even sigmar feels they are getting better planed releases. And as said, DE and craftworld are different. So they in this box was still plastic to move on, and all why marines get so many releases.
When I say a single model release, I keen for every faction getting something, just a single model on a semi regular point is huge to keep people invested. I just ignored GW advertisement and look every few years for stuff I may have missed. Or if I see on Dakka for other news.
I can agree with that. Though my point was more: They were doing this, in 7th. In 8th all Eldar have had is eldrad, spiritseer, and now jain and the banshees. I guess there was that made to order window where they did 8th ed rules for the bonesinger and rereleased the awesome RT farseer sculpt.
They really really really need to give a refresh to some of the oldest troop kits IMO. I've never met an eldar player who isn't trying to actively avoid guardians, and guardsmen and 'gants are just as bad. Nothing dissuades someone from picking a faction up more than their basic troop being 25 years old.
Cronch wrote: Yes, I'm serious. SoB are just more imperial PA trash, in a game already littered with imperial PA nonsense. At this point, it'd be best for everyone if GW split Marinehammer and 40k into two separate entities. One could be all about Brave Imperial Heroes smashing each other like current meta, the other could have chaos and xenos doing interesting stuff.
Sisters are about as similar to current marines as fire dragons are. I mean, they both have power armor, right?
I think nether army should have been left in this state for so long :p
Apple fox wrote: for a lot of eldar players I find that there just isn’t anything to buy, In a lot of cases. For both Craftworld and dark eldar, a single model release would have been huge.
Something to talk about, something to push interest in the range, even something simple like alternative farseers, archons in little releases along with other things.
except Eldar HAVE gotten releases. they got a new plastic farseerer. they also got blood of the Pheonix and Pheonix rising.
here's a question for you, what other xenos race gets a boxed set all to itself and several entire campaign books to themselves?
beyond Pheonix rising, 7th edition gave Eldar and Dark Eldar Fracture of Bel Tain, 6th gave us the Valdore Apoc book.
I'd say Eldar are hardly being forgotten about and passed aside by GW.
they've certainly gotten more attention then say.. necrons
First dark eldar and craftworld eldar are not the same, and a single model over quite a long time, and a crap box Yay!
The others are hardly anything, it’s kind of pitiful for such a large company and there flagship game.
I am talking about regular little releases, and at least an update to older models within a decade.
Fracture was more Ynarri I was thinking, I nope outta 7th since it was trash.
I mean, eldrad, wracks, plastic deHQs, spiritseer, plastic autarch, plastic farseer, windriders, bike HQ... Im pretty sure all that was 7th.
Heh, I am not saying there has been nothing. But some models last edition is still woeful. 40k is looking long in the tooth for a lot of factions, even sigmar feels they are getting better planed releases. And as said, DE and craftworld are different. So they in this box was still plastic to move on, and all why marines get so many releases.
When I say a single model release, I keen for every faction getting something, just a single model on a semi regular point is huge to keep people invested. I just ignored GW advertisement and look every few years for stuff I may have missed. Or if I see on Dakka for other news.
I can agree with that. Though my point was more: They were doing this, in 7th. In 8th all Eldar have had is eldrad, spiritseer, and now jain and the banshees. I guess there was that made to order window where they did 8th ed rules for the bonesinger and rereleased the awesome RT farseer sculpt.
They really really really need to give a refresh to some of the oldest troop kits IMO. I've never met an eldar player who isn't trying to actively avoid guardians, and guardsmen and 'gants are just as bad. Nothing dissuades someone from picking a faction up more than their basic troop being 25 years old.
This is soo true, I avoid guardians. And even the dire avengers kits as much as I can, my guard are entirely none GW where I can now. Even my tau I at the stage where I just look for alternatives when I can.
Eldrad is wrong craftworld for me, and spirit seer I do not even think needed a model and would have rather get Iyanna, or a charecter box for the craftworlds.
I also really want more female representation in the eldar range, so it sucks to ignore this box. But I do not want to reward what I consider bad releases.
The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.
If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?
You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.
The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.
If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?
You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.
There could be a lot of hidden reasons for one box to sell over another, it could even be that for a lot of players the box is spending. $390(gw store price) for 5 models, half a unit and a charecter. And only the banshees I think are really good, Jain zar I really think could have been better. Dark eldar side I would need to offload which is time and effort.
The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.
If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?
You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.
....it was also like, half the price IIRC. and didn't include another faction you probably don't play.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.
Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.
So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.
Also, all you folks advocating for 3rd party and resell, the shipping costs are through the roof. It's common to see a mini for $10 with a $30 shipping charge. With GW product out of the box, I can get it at my FLGS without shipping, at a discount over gw prices and never worry about broken models, missing pieces, dealing with someone else's partial paint job, etc.
As mentioned before, the new plastic will be released as separates, probably in the 4th quarter of 2020, but sooner if there are other releases from either range that the can be used as hype builders, or if either faction gets their 2.0 dex. When that happens, the new plastics will sell- I will certainly buy them if I haven't bought BotP by then. I want it, but there's other stuff I want more. The GSC start collecting box basically gives you a free Ridgerunner, and Sisters are my primary army, so two boxes of penitent engines are probably my next purchase.
Also, as for debates about price vs value, my suggestion is that if you believe these models are not good enough in game terms to justify the price tag, that's fine. Just argue that. You'll find lots of people who back you up. Heck, I wouldn't have bothered pricing out the units to demonstrate the savings if you had just said what you meant, because your argument about model selection is valid. The argument about cost, however, is not; this box offers a minimum 30% savings off the cost of individual kits. Period.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.
Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.
When they were initially introduced, it was marketed not just for people to start an army but as a way to get items for cheaper.
So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.
"Through the lens of the intended audience", the Dominus was packaged in to remove value from the box. It is Start Collecting: Skitarii, not AdMech.
Regarding the idea of characters being expensive, surely this is only the case because GW insists on making overly-elaborate, monopose crap?
It seems for example that they could easily make a DE Trueborn box that also contained accessories for upgrading one or more models to an Archon or Dracon. The DE range is already largely interchangeable and it really doesn't seem that hard to add in a few attachable capes, some more elaborate heads/helmets etc.
This way, the box could pull double-duty - serving as both a source of Archons/Dracons and also a source of Trueborn.
They could also do something similar with Scourge kits, Hellion kits, Reaver kits etc.
vipoid wrote: Regarding the idea of characters being expensive, surely this is only the case because GW insists on making overly-elaborate, monopose crap?
It seems for example that they could easily make a DE Trueborn box that also contained accessories for upgrading one or more models to an Archon or Dracon. The DE range is already largely interchangeable and it really doesn't seem that hard to add in a few attachable capes, some more elaborate heads/helmets etc.
This way, the box could pull double-duty - serving as both a source of Archons/Dracons and also a source of Trueborn.
They could also do something similar with Scourge kits, Hellion kits, Reaver kits etc.
This i think would be the way to go, a lot of characters in eldar would serve better as not true centre peace models. Take a full stick out of warmachines bag and have characters that tie into others, but also build or can build generic options.
Say a named spirit sear, And a unit of special wraithguard that can be taken with her. That also builds a generic farseer and expand the options to wriathguard.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.
Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.
When they were initially introduced, it was marketed not just for people to start an army but as a way to get items for cheaper.
So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.
"Through the lens of the intended audience", the Dominus was packaged in to remove value from the box. It is Start Collecting: Skitarii, not AdMech.
I'm sure there was a line in the press release about how even if you already had an army, there was still value in getting the box. That's not really the same as marketing as a way to get items at a lower cost. To do that, you would call it a value box. Sorry, but naming products really and truly is the first step in any marketing campaign.
As for the argument about Skitarii, here's the flaw in that: every detachment in 40k needs an HQ choice. There are no Skitarii HQ choices. Nor are there even rules for fielding Skitarri in detachments without an HQ like there are for Sisters of Silence. What this means, is that there is literally no such thing as a skitarii army.
Now look, I'm not saying people don't have some valuable points- really, I shouldn't even be arguing any of this, because my arguments for the past few posts have not about gw at all. They have been about semantics. And no amount of arguing about gw will ever change an argument about semantics, just as no argument about semantics actually has much to say about GW. I probably should just let you all fight about GW without trying to worry about whether you do so effectively.
So consider me out. BotP has the highest dollar value per model in the entire history of GW and Start Collecting Boxes are all made for veteran players. /S
You do know that when the Skitarii Start Collecting set first dropped, they didn't require an HQ?
The Skitarii Maniple Force Organization Chart that they had specifically had 0 HQ choices, but allowed for you to nominate a Princeps or Alpha as your Warlord.
They had to create a formation to allow for the Start Collecting box to be fieldable.
Remember that the Dominus, additionally, was the onlyHQ that the Cult Mechanicus had at that time(and one of the heftier ones in terms of price at his MSRP of $36USD). It wasn't until "Agents of the Imperium" that the Enginseer was brought in, and it wasn't until Gathering Storm that Cawl showed up.
Hellebore wrote: All this is ignoring the flat precedent that GW can and does release units for armies all the time at high speed.
So any argument around this as to why they can't do it for eldar is demonstrably false
since BoTp came out the only substantial army release we've had (beyond their finishing up the overly long drawn out marines release) has been sisters of battle.
Go on, tell sisters of battle players eldar needed updates more then their army did with a straight face.
The comment is true of all non marine factions and then non imperial factions.
And it was in response to all these people that wheel out tired arguments about GWs capacity while actively ignoring the sheer quantity of material produced for marines and imperial armies in general. They're all from the same faction army anyway, or you couldn't make combined armies with the keyword imperial. If nothing else says that xenos armies are artificially categorised and lumped together, it's the fact that there is no xenos keyword. You can take armies of any imperial force because they're all overly detailed looks at tiny compartments of the imperial armed forces, but you can't take Orks, nids and Eldar together because they are themselves all separate factions.
The xenos descriptor is actually the 'not imperial or chaos' descriptor.
Hellebore wrote: All this is ignoring the flat precedent that GW can and does release units for armies all the time at high speed.
So any argument around this as to why they can't do it for eldar is demonstrably false
since BoTp came out the only substantial army release we've had (beyond their finishing up the overly long drawn out marines release) has been sisters of battle.
Go on, tell sisters of battle players eldar needed updates more then their army did with a straight face.
The comment is true of all non marine factions and then non imperial factions.
And it was in response to all these people that wheel out tired arguments about GWs capacity while actively ignoring the sheer quantity of material produced for marines and imperial armies in general. They're all from the same faction army anyway, or you couldn't make combined armies with the keyword imperial. If nothing else says that xenos armies are artificially categorised and lumped together, it's the fact that there is no xenos keyword. You can take armies of any imperial force because they're all overly detailed looks at tiny compartments of the imperial armed forces, but you can't take Orks, nids and Eldar together because they are themselves all separate factions.
The xenos descriptor is actually the 'not imperial or chaos' descriptor.
Capabiltiy is there! Theres new kits released every other day for some random specialist off shoot game. I find it bizarre they cant release updates for 40k factions where I suspect more total collectors in a single 40k faction like IG or harlequins than total amount of people playing blood bowl or Adeptus titanichus...
Obviously I really don't know what the numbers are for these sales no one outside of GW really knows. But any game system revolves around building a community. I can only speak anecdotally and say far more people play IG, necrons, or harlequins factions in my local area then there are total people who play beastgrave or whatever its called. But they have absolutely cranked up their prodct release to 12... However most of it is not going into 40k factions that need models. It certainly seems like whipping it out upwind and pissing on your flagship brand's often almost fanatical customer base.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Real question is, how many people who play guard need a commissar ? How many people who play Ad mech need more Tech priest Dominus ? They do really like to drive the sales of certain models hard and toss in fake value choices into these boxes, the Eldar large box was just a more awful growth of that same mentality.
Funny thing about a start collecting box. It is explicitly designed for people who are starting to collect the army. That is why it is called a start collecting box, and not a reinforcement box.
So, through the lens of the intended audience, who needs that Dominus? EVERYONE, because this is supposed to be the box they buy to start their army.
Also, all you folks advocating for 3rd party and resell, the shipping costs are through the roof. It's common to see a mini for $10 with a $30 shipping charge. With GW product out of the box, I can get it at my FLGS without shipping, at a discount over gw prices and never worry about broken models, missing pieces, dealing with someone else's partial paint job, etc.
As mentioned before, the new plastic will be released as separates, probably in the 4th quarter of 2020, but sooner if there are other releases from either range that the can be used as hype builders, or if either faction gets their 2.0 dex. When that happens, the new plastics will sell- I will certainly buy them if I haven't bought BotP by then. I want it, but there's other stuff I want more. The GSC start collecting box basically gives you a free Ridgerunner, and Sisters are my primary army, so two boxes of penitent engines are probably my next purchase.
Also, as for debates about price vs value, my suggestion is that if you believe these models are not good enough in game terms to justify the price tag, that's fine. Just argue that. You'll find lots of people who back you up. Heck, I wouldn't have bothered pricing out the units to demonstrate the savings if you had just said what you meant, because your argument about model selection is valid. The argument about cost, however, is not; this box offers a minimum 30% savings off the cost of individual kits. Period.
Maybe you just aren't picking up what I'm putting down, I've said the models aren't worth the cost for a myriad of reasons. As well if you are paying 30 for shipping on a 10 item, that's a you problem and not a normality as I assure you most I know can get shipping pretty reasonable and still get the items much much cheaper. You all love to cherry pick reasons and argue one this one or that one but not on all of them. Just because people want to ignore vast swaths of my argument doesn't make your counter point anymore effective.
As for the start collecting reasoning, they put the tech priest dominius in just about everything for Ad mech, where the new tech priest model could also be used in some cases but isn't because they keep trying to shift just the dominus. The Guard box could have a command squad, the tempestus can make HQs out of the normal box, there isn't any reason to keep shoving Commissars in everything and it makes little fiscal sense to just sell one box of these sets to one person a piece but some of the items offer such false value that it promises that will happen.
Sometimes though the draw is high enough to make you accept the crap value of some choices, like the foregebane I had someone in mind for the necron half and the tiny knights were enough of a prime choice to make that box worth it to me then and I imagine a number of others and that was more a reinforcement group than a starter collection. I can agree some boxes are better than others but most have a unit or choice that is a false value option or a negative value as you just don't need them and they could put some variety in those like boxes.
Edit: As well yes, they were touted for vets as well as newbies when the boxes came out and the Dominus wasn't even fieldable with Skittari when the box came out they had to make it a formation to make it legal to even use it with the other items in it as some wise poster already pointed out.
I know its cool to cheery pick from history and just ignore facts that are inconvenient to an argument but GW has operated in certain ways for awhile, just saying " but it's only meant for new people ! " despite the name is simply silly. The name change was done simply to entice new players but all of those boxes were just faction boxes before they became " Start Collecting " that name change didn't do anything to alter the original dual intent of the offering.
The amount of savings isn't the issue, the issue is it is only a savings if you want the models offered and it's such a large box set cost wise for things you won't need/use.
If new Banshees and Jain Zar aren't enough to encourage new players to pick up a box with less competitive, but still incredibly useful/fun options, perhaps that's the issue entirely?
You think any new or old Ork player needs warbikes? They're worse than the Falcon and Vyper in terms of competitive viability. People still purchased the box for the sweet Buggies though. It sold out in a fair few places. This is the difference. The Ork players decided that getting the new Buggies that had, at the time, some of the worst rules a new model has ever seen justified the box cost that included not only useless bikes but also literal terrain sprues. And before it's said - the monobox makes no difference by your own logic. Useless models are useless regardless of whether their rules suck or they are of another faction, apparently.
Good Lord, are you still on about this?
Look, just because you Ork players have some sort of financial martyr thing going on & will buy stuff you neither like, want, nor need doesn't mean that others must follow suite & fork over $ for models they're not interested in for whatever reason.
Ok ? Still doesn't change the fact the commissar is a useless choice and they'd be better served with a command squad in the box. If I recall the cost is about the same for both, but one is useless and one is useful. I don't think its a mystery why the commissar is in those boxes, it's just to get rid of them and make you still need to buy the command squad boxes that are necessary to make the other units worth it.
Not even going into the fact the heavy weapon teams are very over costed, money wise.
As well, no guard player has really any use for commissars, I say this sadly as I have tons but even new players just end up running him as a commander or not at all as they find all too soon how useless they are.
Taking that into account, you're not really saving much, if anything as to make those buys worthwhile you need to spend all the savings and then some more to buy the items you actually need.
When I started with guard the SC box was the old Leman russ, 20 infantry and 1 3 base heavy weapon squad, it was discounted and all of the items were useful. Later down the road they came with now this is just off the top of my head here but 1 command squad box, 1 sentinel, 20 troops and 3 base heavy weapon squad, so for the Russ you got the command squad and sentinel, money wise it ended up around the same discount though the old box was useful with everything and this one Sentinels are meh. The current box a whole 10 men, 1 heavy weapon base, 1 Leman Russ and an utterly useless commissar.
The savings has only fallen into the pooper and what adds to it is the bloated cost of the same kits they used to cost 35 USD for 20, the same exact molds that are now 35 for 10, and the command squad that used to be 25 is now 35.
So yeah, you save some cash, but thats only if you over look how the same exact models have increased 33 percent thereabouts for no real reason and then they still toss in a useless model to boot, when they could easily throw in the command squad and make it sting less.
Sorry for he ramble, I just have to point out GW isn't really doing anyone any favors and have only gotten more greedy as time goes on, hard to believe I know. The BotP was just the most greedy money grab they'd done in awhile and frankly I'm actually proud the eldar player base didn't reward them for it.
yes the comissar is crap right now but two eyars ago Comissars where insanely good. the value of a unit changes with editions and all GW isn't going to change up a SC box everytime the compeitive meta changes just to provide the best deal to the "meta chasers"
