How do? Brace yourself, high chance of wimbrilling.

Anyways. The Primaris, or at least how they were introduced have proven somewhat divisive.

Yet, when we dig into the background, it strongly points to them being based on existing plans. And that’s what I’d like to delve into with this thread.

For clarity, this is about background only. Not one’s own opinion on Primaris as a thing. So please stick to the topic at hand.

Ready? Off we go.

The first thing to understand is the Primarch Project, what happened, and why it points to Space Marines being a rush or ‘Friday’ job. This will also touch on Thunder Warriors. And indeed, start with them.

So, Thunder Warriors. Pre-cursors to Space Marines. And in certain areas, superior to Space Marines. Yet, by accident or design they were short lived. I’m in the camp of accident, otherwise why use the original Space Marines to wipe them out? Anyways. That’s a different, if closely related topic.

From there, with Terra pacified and unified, The Emperor embarked upon the Primarch Project. This was to be the final word in genetic manipulation using existing knowledge. 20 were created (arguably 21 because Omegon), and there was a plan. Then the scattering occurred. All of them snatched away and deposited around the Galaxy.

With that done, The Emperor creates Space Marines, based on remaining genetic samples. And we know the timing of The Emperor revealing Himself, getting Terra sorted and planning the Great Crusade occurred because, somehow, he knew the Warp Storms were about to clear. That’s why he cracked on with the Primarch Project when he did, so he’d have armies ready to go.

But, with that plan interrupted, original Space Marines were, by necessity, a rush job. A salvage operation to get at least some benefit of the Primarch Project. They were imperfect, unrefined. I mean, look at the gap between Astartes and Primarch. Its huge. Like a tiny, yappy, bulge eyed Chiuaua and a Wolf. Both of the same lineage, but one clearly superior in every way to the other.

Importantly though, they were a tool fit for the purpose. Faster, stronger, more intelligent and longer lived than pretty much any Warrior ever before. And so began The Great Crusade. Also, various of Cawl’s identities were present in that time, and at least one worked upon both projects.

Here, I’m going to jump forward to 40,000 for a brief moment. By this point, it’s become widely accepted that Space Marines are perfection. The greatest they can possibly be. But, as with much of Imperial Dogma, that is a lie.

Now, back to the Heresy era. After Istvaan , the Raven Guard were in a sorry state. The merest fraction of the Legion remained. And, in short time, The Emperor granted Corax and his Legion access to certain technologies. And this? This is where it gets interesting, from the Primaris point of view.

See, the Space Marines created in that process, before their corruption, were stronger, faster, more intelligent and more resilient than any other. Does......does that sound familiar? Anyone? No? Beuller? No? Dust? Bueller? Anyone? Dust?.

Basically, it describes Primaris Marines to a tee. And that technology already existed, in storage. So it’s seems that as much as the original Astartes were a rush job, they were still more than adequate for the time being.

Now, here comes the speculation.

I don’t, for a second, believe The Emperor didn’t have intentions to further improve his Astartes. I mean, there’s no examples at all previously of a ‘that’ll do, Pig, that’ll do’ attitude. And I for one argue that the dawn of the Heresy is the reason things were arrested when they were. Essentially, He had more pressing concerns, especially after Magnus Did Nothing Wrong. And after that point, he was either way too busy or too, y’know, kinda ded, to pick up where he left off.

Now. Corax and Guilliman were Brothers. There seems absolutely no chance that Corax’s ‘new and improved, never mind it’s goo now’ Sons wouldn’t have come up, or escaped the attention of Guilliman. And it’s likely Corax divulged much of his knowledge to Guilliman, either during or after the Heresy.

From there? Guilliman, the then de facto leader of the Imperium would’ve, inevitably, had been introduced to Cawl, assuming he hadn’t know of him beforehand.

And by that point, daemonic shenanigans, as were used to corrupt those early ‘might as well be Primaris’ Marines was better understood. From there, it’s a relatively simple, if time consuming, task to grant Cawl access to whatever records remained, and possibly even the original machinery.

After that? He had 10,000 years and near unlimited resources to tinker around. And there’s certainly no suggestion he just got it right first time around.

In summary - in no sense did Cawl personally invent The Primaris. Rather, his task was to recover existing knowledge and gene crafting, so the always planned next iteration could come to be.

Right, hopefully that’s coherent. Typing on iPad so can’t be bothered to edit.

All comments and criticism, citation and braining welcome. Personal opinions on Primaris as a thing not required.

we know one core element of the primaris project was the 'Sangprimus Portem' - which "contains the genetic material originally harvested from all twenty Primarchs".

That sounds too much like the gene-reservoir Corax finds in the Emperor's labyrinth to be a coincidence, so yes, quite possibly.




https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Sangprimus_Portum

It's all perfectly reasonable. Plus, if you've successfully made something great, why wouldn't you then go on and try to further improve on it. That all makes sense.

They're just really irritating. (sorry)

No worries

Comment is fine. Diatribe not fine

regarding space Marines and their flaws. the Novel Valdore goes into some detail about the Space Marines development.


as such the priamris project makes sense. it was an effort to basicly "finish the job" on Marines that had been by necessity done without the full toolset needed. and in the end, all Cawl could do was add 3 new organs. (his original plan was more ambitious)

And I have doubts that Cawl even designed said three additional organs himself.

Rather, I suspect he found whatever amounted to The Emperor’s project notes, extra super secret special tech, and worked from there.

And in terms of the wider background, even though I personally am a fan of Primaris, it’s a more satisfying explanation.

Indeed, the 10,000 years he had speaks to The Emperor’s own brilliance, given he worked up the Primarchs from relative scratch in, well, actually, I don’t know. Is there a canonical timescale for that? I can’t imagine it’s much more than a century or two?

Also speaks to the resources available to The Emperor at the time. I mean, 20 men might build a house in X time, but a single man on his own won’t do the same in 1/20th the time?

Primaris are perfectly reasonable from a lore standpoint, people just wanna be dicks.

Comment on the topic, not subjective opinion.

The Selenar gene cults had a hand in it as well.

The Sangprimus portum was a Selenar artefact (originally called the Magna Mater) recovered by loyalists from the Moon before the Sons of Horus got it.

Read the siege of terra LE novella Sons of the Selenar for more information.

In short, as we already knew, the emperors forces defeated the Selenar on Luna. They weren't wiped out, he let them live and yoked them to his cause so he could use their superior genetic knowledge to mass produce Space Marines for the Great Crusade.

The Magna Mater contained the prime source information of the space marine genetic codes. Its highly likely the Selenar, given their superior genetic knowledge, made improvements to the source code for possible future use. Its possible Cawl didn't actually develop the new primaris organs, rather the selenar made the improvements originally.

Whoever came up with the concept/design/test subjects of what would become the Primaris over time, I still don’t think it was Cawl.

It doesn’t fit him, nor the Tech-Priest ethos, which is that everything is already done, we just need to go find it again. Which is a gloriously nihilistic approach to technology, and why I enjoy Ad-Mech so much.

Could the Magna Mater be what Corax was told was on Mars, and later corrupted?

And what was built once, can be built again, if one can find the blueprints?

Going down the rabbit hole further.....clearly The Emperor knew of the Magna Mater. But where did that knowledge come from? What if He’d seen blueprints or the relevant STC, and decided it was such a complex machine it was actually easier to go and chin Luna, and take the single, known example?

Seriously, I love this sort of chat. New to me info is presented, theories come up and are discussed and picked apart.

well the 3 organs are, basicly half of a primarch growth gland (something that clearly Cawl didn't develop) a set of muscle reinforcers, not exactly rocket science that. the one organ he likely did develop was the Bascilian furnace (mostly because it seems to ceom from his name) which... honestly is basicly a glorified adrenaline pump


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whoever came up with the concept/design/test subjects of what would become the Primaris over time, I still don’t think it was Cawl.

It doesn’t fit him, nor the Tech-Priest ethos, which is that everything is already done, we just need to go find it again. Which is a gloriously nihilistic approach to technology, and why I enjoy Ad-Mech so much.

Could the Magna Mater be what Corax was told was on Mars, and later corrupted?

And what was built once, can be built again, if one can find the blueprints?

Going down the rabbit hole further.....clearly The Emperor knew of the Magna Mater. But where did that knowledge come from? What if He’d seen blueprints or the relevant STC, and decided it was such a complex machine it was actually easier to go and chin Luna, and take the single, known example?

Seriously, I love this sort of chat. New to me info is presented, theories come up and are discussed and picked apart.

keep in mind that Cawl is a bit of an odd case, he's not just a random tech priest, the original Cawl was always a bit of a independant thinker, and one of the minds he's absorbed was a student of the emperor's so... it's a bit complex.

This all seems to be reasonable and more than likely the case. I like when enough bread crumbs are left in the fluff that you can deduce things without having it completely explained.
I believe in another topic someone said that based on the novel about the Emperor and the Seige of Terra and the warp gate, that the Custodes were supposed to replace the space marines, like the marines did the thunder warriors. Maybe I am wrong but even if it is true, there is still a big gap from primaris to custodes. This just makes the raptors that Corax made all the more intriguing, maybe they were even better than the primaris?

I think you're pretty spot on the money there, and it's a shame that so many people settle on the "Cawl invented them in a few years!" interpretation, when there's so much room for "actually, here's what could have been the case".

In the Valdor novel (which I've not had the pleasure of properly reading), I understand that the Thunder Warriors also seemed to have their own Primarchs, who were intentionally killed off by the Custodes, and even by some of the first Space Marines of the 1st Legion.

You're very much right on Corax and Guilliman being not just brothers, but actually seeming to be very close with eachother - Corax's novel gives us a scene of him and Guilliman running simulated battles together, and while I think Corax pretty much gets his ass handed to him over and over by Guilliman, they both deeply respect eachother and their alternative methods of warfare. I do think that Corax may have trusted Guilliman with the truth of his project, and the hope of it potentially being restored.

Basically, I think you're pretty spot on with the situation at play, and I'm fairly sure that's the kind of vibe GW seem to be pushing for, at least in my interpretation of the setting.

So if Primaris are perfected Space Marines, what are Custodes?

Not Space Marines, I guess?

I think that the Custodes, being around since before Space Marines and Thunder Warriors, were already perfected, but not what the Emperor wanted as his mainline troops (either from how expensive they would be to make, but even perhaps from a sentimental attachment to them?).

Thunder Warriors and Space Marines, on the other hand, were super soldiers built for certain tasks, and not really built to outlive that. If Primaris Marines were intended, which I believe they were, then they might simply represent the next step in the evolution of "indoctrinated super soldier", between the Imperial Army and Custodes.

Well, that's a pretty strange thing, to have already perfected an even superior super-human, but wait 10,000 years to display your super secret but not as superior superhuman. I'm wonderimg what the in-universe explanation is for persuing Primaris when you are already making super-super Custodess soldiers.

First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Indeed. Custodes are "better" but they're not even remotely cost effective to mass produce, even on the limited scale of astartes and thunder warriors, which means they're so expensive as to not be expendable: a bad trait for a soldier!

The only other imperial combatant remotely in their league for "enhanced human" are assassinorium operatives, who are also way above 'just space marines.

Personally I find it entirely likely that Cawl would slap his name on an organ that he copied from someone else's designs. It simply seems like something his character would plausibly do.

The Thunder Warriors were intentionally designed to die out over time, the only thing that changed was how fast they became disposable. That's covered in The Outcast Dead and subsequent novels.

A lot of people seem to fail to grasp that, across the various books, the Emperor is not short sighted. His singular failure is not seeing what Horus would become.

Cawl has, through his merging with Director Senadyne , The Great Work, met the Emperor. We know from what Cawl says and what Guilliman says that lots of the Mechanics consider the Primaris heresy, because Cawl has tampered with the Machine God's work. Ergo if Cawl has simply followed the Emperors plans he'd prove it.

I suspect we wil eventually see the run up to Cawl beginning the project with Guilliman.

Assassins don't count , being surgically and uniquely altered on a case by case basis, rather than effective mass production needed for Astartes/Primaris.

With Custodes, the Emperor envisioned them as his "true" sons. They'd lead his initial armies, then police the peace. A core utterly loyal all powerful force. This s mainly in Master of Mankind. You see how ruthless the Emperor is, in a sense the relationship with the Primarchs is an act that becomes more more thanks to the Heresy.

Custodes? I’ve a loose theory on that, and it draws on a principle we see in 40k. It’s all about carefully crafted levels of defence.

Consider the PDF. Intended as the first line of defence for a given world. Tactically, they’re enough to handle small scale stuff, like Dark Eldar raids, Cult Uprisings etc. And they’re typically armed and trained in that matter.

But, they can rarely match the martial power of an Imperial Guard Regiment. Thus, should the Governor become corrupted or just troublesome, the planet side forces can be more easily taken out.

And I think the Custodes are the same concept. They’re stronger, faster, better, more than Astartes, because when you’ve Legions of super soldier, your bodyguard needs to be stronger.

BrianDavion wrote:First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

Oh, I see! Interesting!

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Yeah, Custodes were always around - pre Thunder Warriors, pre Space Marines, pre Primaris. They are the Emperor's perfect troops, but require such an investment that making so many of them would be impractical.
Thunder Warriors were ideal for taking Terra - savage, brutal, and heavily resilient to the weaponry of human warlords. Don't require vacuum sealing, don't need the same kind of long-term casualty recovery that long-term void campaigns would need.
Space Marines, while being weaker in form than a Thunder Warrior, had far better training and discipline, as well as superior equipment for prolonged void campaigns and energy weaponry that might be found out in the Great Crusade. Designed to last physically, for semi-perpetual war, but also weak enough to be defeated by Custodes.
Primaris were a further extension of this philosophy - more durable, but similarly trained and equipped - the beta to the initial Space Marine program, that unfortunately was delayed until Cawl could finish other people's projects with his own insight.

At least, that's how I see it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm wonderimg what the in-universe explanation is for persuing Primaris when you are already making super-super Custodess soldiers.

Custodes are bespoke creations, each one individually genetically rebuilt. Astartes are the cheap mass-market version. Each Custodes represents a great deal of time and effort to create. Marines are essentially self-reproducing

BrianDavion wrote:
First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Where is this Thunder Warrior thing covered?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Where is this Thunder Warrior thing covered?

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it's in the "Scions of the Emperor" anthology - something like "End of Memories".

Funny enough the project being rushed feels real familiar working in software.

Mini marines are the prototype that was pushed out the door because of management promises.
Primaris are the refactored v2 that actually does what was initially promised.
Custodes are the personal pet project of the CEO that got proper funding but never got to market viable.

Why not, rather than looking to improve astartes, not just expand the custodes. Already better than SM. That’s never added up for me but I may not have read something

mrFickle wrote:
Why not, rather than looking to improve astartes, not just expand the custodes. Already better than SM. That’s never added up for me but I may not have read something

Custodes are basically custom jobs. They're created singularly, as each individual needs specific surgeries and procedures to become a Custode. Thus they can't be mass produced like space marines or primaris. So not good for front line troops which is what space marines where used for in the Great Crusade.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Where is this Thunder Warrior thing covered?

Valdor: Birth of the Imperium, I think.

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding space Marines and their flaws. the Novel Valdore goes into some detail about the Space Marines development.

Spoiler:

We learn a woman named Amar Astarte was the head of the project, we also learn she decided space marines without the primarchs present to stablize them where hopelessly and utterly flawed to the point where she thought the project was a failure and tried to destroy it.

as such the priamris project makes sense. it was an effort to basicly "finish the job" on Marines that had been by necessity done without the full toolset needed. and in the end, all Cawl could do was add 3 new organs. (his original plan was more ambitious)

That makes no sense to me. If your project isn't going well then why would your plan be to blow it up...

I'd understand if she thought that Marines shouldn't be trusted to the Emperor, she was bribed, she went a bit mad or just was plain against it from the start and that was her first chance to bail but blowing it up because it's not working out?

She was also now disillusioned with the Emperor - she suspected he was becoming no better than the tyrants who ruled Terra before him, and that her project was better destroyed than corrupted, and not in the Emperor's hands anyway.

Seems to be a combination of "my work is flawed, I can't allow this to be created" and "the Emperor's just another tyrant".

Ahhh that makes much more sense then. That seems to be becoming a theme with early Crusade characters, noticing the Emperor isn't much better than the other tyrants.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
His singular failure is not seeing what Horus would become.

I'd argue his failure was in not eliminating Erebus and Kor Whatshisname on sight, but there you go

That's nice. I don't relaly hate Primaris Marines though, myself.

But I will gleefully mock lore that presents them as "more marine-ier than thou!", where they're basically presented as marines to the power of marines, as if something's Space Marine-esque quality was a quantifiable thing and the Primaris are the x2 variant.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Where is this Thunder Warrior thing covered?

the new Valdore novel

The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

 SisterSydney wrote:
The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

Blame the design process. Models always come first, then rules, then lore. The really cool and crazy stuff that wins wars is never represented by models. It's represented by objective tokens.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Where is this Thunder Warrior thing covered?

the new Valdore novel

Chris Wraight also said it very clearly at the Black LIbrary Weekender, whilst talking about Valdor.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

Yet, it’s served The Imperium well for 10,000 years, and The Emperor, counting Thunder Warriors and whatever Genehanced precursors, even longer.

I suspect there are very, very few armed forces that wouldn’t give an arm and a leg for stronger, faster, smarter and more resilient troops.

And as is the point of this entire thread, there are plenty breadcrumbs to point to Primaris having always been on the agenda to some degree. Certainly, if my theory of Guilliman being intrigued by what the Raven Guard’s Raptors should’ve been is accurate?

Well, he knows the biggest threat to the Imperium, post Heresy (including the Scourging) were the traitor Legions. What better way to counter them than new and improved Astartes?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

Yet, it’s served The Imperium well for 10,000 years, and The Emperor, counting Thunder Warriors and whatever Genehanced precursors, even longer.

I suspect there are very, very few armed forces that wouldn’t give an arm and a leg for stronger, faster, smarter and more resilient troops.

And as is the point of this entire thread, there are plenty breadcrumbs to point to Primaris having always been on the agenda to some degree. Certainly, if my theory of Guilliman being intrigued by what the Raven Guard’s Raptors should’ve been is accurate?

Well, he knows the biggest threat to the Imperium, post Heresy (including the Scourging) were the traitor Legions. What better way to counter them than new and improved Astartes?

Mass produced weaponry capable of penetrating Astartes armour easily that allows for much more effective defences against Chaos Marines?

Honest question there, is who is going to wield it, and where is it coming from in sufficient numbers?

And, why not both? Cawl Pattern Bolt Rifles broadly match the description.


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Could even plunge down a slightly different rabbit hole.

We know that much of the concept of Astartes is absolute, overwhelming, brute force. They are terror troops of the highest calibre.

As your squad mates start detonating around you, your counter fire barely slows them. Maybe someone got off a lucky shot, and blasted an arm off the foe. Well, he’s still mostly combat effective, and crucially? He’s still coming.

With Traitor Astartes, that works both ways when fielding mixed formations. Just as loyalists tearing through the enemy is superb for morale, seeing them cut down in turn by very often more experienced foes is superbly demoralising.

And that’s where the Primaris come into effect. Yes, they still die. But they’re tougher to put down than a Traitor Astartes. And their weapons are slightly better (tabletop only, oddly haven’t read much Primaris fiction), so they do attrition better than most Traitors.

Since this is an admitted Rabbit Hole theory, I want to run just a little further.

We know The Imperium runs on propaganda. 100% of the time. What better propaganda than Primaris being seen to absolutely spank their corrupted Brethren? Does that not only add to the tales that Chaos enfeebles? How many worlds would such Picts help prevent from even thinking of rebelling? How many citizens barely brushing a Cult might think just a little bit harder?

Guardsmen. The people who make up 90% of the Imperium's military and I imagine it would come from Forge Worlds. That's the point of weapons development - you give it to your existing troops and make it in the same kind of place you make your current weapon.

Would make sense for propaganda, if not fact.

Roman centurions looked better than the "barbarian hordes" on paper. We know how it worked out in practice.

To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUkaTcoM_2Q&list=PLx6N3LVwgba2DoXWGXq-lANYAamQTsWw9&index=50

Yet that is a staggering effort. There’s a Million worlds in the Imperium. At least.

The reason the Imperial Guard use the Lasgun is one of practicality. Few moving parts, so easy to maintain. Relatively universal ammo, so even if the Adeptus Munitorum gets the wrong crates to you, there’s a high chance you’ll have the right ammo. Very simple, very foolproof weapons. Something even the rawest recruit is hard pressed to ruin. And in enough volume, more than enough against the majority of foes.

The more complexity you add to such a weapon, the greater the logistic of supply, maintenance and training.

You also don’t want anything as large as an Imperial Guard regiment gone rogue with your best weapons. At all.

There’s also the structure of the Imperium to consider. The majority of really nice weapons come from Forgeworlds - certainly all those made in the volume demanded by having untold billions under arms at any given moment.

If a new weapon takes three times the resources and effort to make, it needs to be very, very effective indeed. Because you’ve just cut your supply by a third. Can The Imperium afford that? Will enough Forgeworlds (who still remain fairly autonomous as such things go) adopt the new design? Because we’re not talking about sane men here. We’re talking 40k, where superstition is rife, and adhered to literally religiously.

Will all Forgeworlds that do adopt it have the right resource to produce them? Not all can produce Plasma weapons, after all.

Ad Mech mysticism aside, the sheer size of The Imperium, and the necessities of protecting it are a solid reason for technological stagnation.

We also need to consider the life expectancy of a Guardsman. Once they’re dead, where do the weapons go? All being well, recovered by friendlies. But when defeat occurs? Do you really, really want weapons that can cut an Astartes down in the hands of the foe? The Astartes being your last word in a reasonably deployable ‘Nope’ switch? The troops you send in to tear out the cancerous heart of the foe with such utter ruthlessness and efficiency that their command structure utterly collapses? Often with little more than a single squad? A single squad that can now be cut to ribbons because you decided to arm your meat shields with weapons sufficient to drop them?

I say thee nay. I say that’s a very, very daft idea indeed!


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Gadzilla666 wrote:
Would make sense for propaganda, if not fact.

Roman centurions looked better than the "barbarian hordes" on paper. We know how it worked out in practice.

Roman Centurions weren’t genetically enhanced psycho killers who’s sidearm can cause civilian weapons to explode into flames with a single shot

As for Arch Warhammer? I’m not listening to any of his stuff, for reasons We Do Not Discuss On Dakka. So I’ll never know if that blow hard is correct or not, or even using background references.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Would make sense for propaganda, if not fact.

Roman centurions looked better than the "barbarian hordes" on paper. We know how it worked out in practice.

Roman Centurions weren’t genetically enhanced psycho killers who’s sidearm can cause civilian weapons to explode into flames with a single shot

Yes but in this case the Huns, Visigoths, and Vandals are also genetically enhanced psych killers whose sidearms can cause civilian weapons to explode into flames with a single shot.

And some of them are supremely better terror troops. (The Eighth Legion says hi).

Not sure that’s an accurate analogy?

Primaris are to Legionnaires as perhaps the Praetorian Guard? Better trained and equipped (theoretically) for the very purpose of defending against Legionnaries?

 aphyon wrote:
To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUkaTcoM_2Q&list=PLx6N3LVwgba2DoXWGXq-lANYAamQTsWw9&index=50

Bad source. That guy's logic is pretty iffy most of the time. If Ramliez, Luetin, or Occula Imperia released something to the same effect it might lend some credence.

There’s also the allegation in the background that Primaris are even more fearless than their forebears, meaning they, in theory (again, limited BL knowledge, always open to cited education on the matter) hold up better against Terror Tactics?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not sure that’s an accurate analogy?

Primaris are to Legionnaires as perhaps the Praetorian Guard? Better trained and equipped (theoretically) for the very purpose of defending against Legionnaries?

Perhaps. But the traitor legions at this point no longer fight the same. They bring new tactics. Similar to the Huns. The Imperium doesn't just need better troops. It needs to adapt its tactics. That's why Gulliman is more important than primaris. He's dragging the Imperium out of 10000 years of thick headed dogma.

And whilst we’re in this particular rabbit hole, physical resilience and speed of reaction, against a more experienced foe, counts for a lot.

Consider. Space Marines are hard to make, regardless of Loyalist or Traitor, correct?

So in general terms, if I could offer an army troops capable of swift learning, which was also harder to kill, to take on a less physically capable (relatively speaking) but far more experienced and blooded foe, why wouldn’t you accept?

After all. Experience is something anyone can gain in any field. And is ultimately irreplacable in any war machine.

Consider that when the Primaris take the field, they’re slaying Veterans. And given their production is the result of 10,000 years of trial and error, backed with the full industrial might of The Imperium? They’re superb warriors of attrition.

Yes, Chaos forces are less fussy about who goes under the knife. Indeed, if we look at the numbers and state of recruitment pools during the Great Crusade, it seems the Loyalist Chapters are being overly fussy in terms of recruitment...

But how do Chaos store the bits and bobs necessary? If bodies are lost during a raid, do they have opportunity to recover gene seed or not? And can they do it ‘properly’, as Loyalists do? That I honestly don’t know. Perhaps it’s covered in a book I’ve not read, wouldn’t be the first time!

But either way.... Chaos loses its one edge - experience. Many Traitors have been around since The Great Crusade itself. Every single one lost is a serious blow to the war effort.

Primaris? Better able to survived. And thanks to the Rubicon, even seriously wounded First Born can get the upgrade, not only returning them to the fray, but their experience.

It’s a solid concept, Primaris is!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also the allegation in the background that Primaris are even more fearless than their forebears, meaning they, in theory (again, limited BL knowledge, always open to cited education on the matter) hold up better against Terror Tactics?

Not sure about bl but on tabletop they have the same leadership as tacticals. For what that's worth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And whilst we’re in this particular rabbit hole, physical resilience and speed of reaction, against a more experienced foe, counts for a lot.

Consider. Space Marines are hard to make, regardless of Loyalist or Traitor, correct?

So in general terms, if I could offer an army troops capable of swift learning, which was also harder to kill, to take on a less physically capable (relatively speaking) but far more experienced and blooded foe, why wouldn’t you accept?

After all. Experience is something anyone can gain in any field. And is ultimately irreplacable in any war machine.

Consider that when the Primaris take the field, they’re slaying Veterans. And given their production is the result of 10,000 years of trial and error, backed with the full industrial might of The Imperium? They’re superb warriors of attrition.

Yes, Chaos forces are less fussy about who goes under the knife. Indeed, if we look at the numbers and state of recruitment pools during the Great Crusade, it seems the Loyalist Chapters are being overly fussy in terms of recruitment...

But how do Chaos store the bits and bobs necessary? If bodies are lost during a raid, do they have opportunity to recover gene seed or not? And can they do it ‘properly’, as Loyalists do? That I honestly don’t know. Perhaps it’s covered in a book I’ve not read, wouldn’t be the first time!

But either way.... Chaos loses its one edge - experience. Many Traitors have been around since The Great Crusade itself. Every single one lost is a serious blow to the war effort.

Primaris? Better able to survived. And thanks to the Rubicon, even seriously wounded First Born can get the upgrade, not only returning them to the fray, but their experience.

It’s a solid concept, Primaris is!

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

And it's always better to root for the underdog. (Even if they are psychopathic killers. )

aphyon wrote:To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch

Arch? No thanks. As Gadzilla's said:

Gadzilla666 wrote:If Ramliez, Luetin, or Occula Imperia released something to the same effect it might lend some credence.

, I'd be more receptive to anything from anyone else, but I don't believe they've made that kind of theory.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:There’s also the allegation in the background that Primaris are even more fearless than their forebears, meaning they, in theory (again, limited BL knowledge, always open to cited education on the matter) hold up better against Terror Tactics?

More indoctrinated (the Martian ones, at least), and apparently more resistant to corruption (not sure if that's just Cawl spouting propaganda or if that's genuine though), but I wouldn't say they're more fearless, IMO.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Maybe you should state specifically that before going into a rebuke about something unmentioned. It’s the same sort of super growth that Astartes aspirants have had done to become the original marines. If you can accept full-on height boosting and development of the Astartes barrel chest or fused rib cage just from, what, 19 organs transplanted over a period of time, I can’t imagine you not being able to accept 3 (or two for growth, while the coil just adds to durability) organs being transplanted to add some more muscle mass and regenerate damaged/destroyed tissue all while hooked up to powerful medical devices just like aspirants are. Keep in mind, a youth becoming a space marine is just a human boy, with the body of one, and Marine becoming a Primaris is a space marine with the body of a space marine, the peak health state that doesn’t tire or become sick, etc. Its more plausible that a superhuman could be made more superhuman than a teenager (or full adult, as I believe the Great Khan had at least a couple of successes with) could be.

After the new growth, it’s normal space marine rules.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Maybe you should state specifically that before going into a rebuke about something unmentioned. It’s the same sort of super growth that Astartes aspirants have had done to become the original marines. If you can accept full-on height boosting and development of the Astartes barrel chest or fused rib cage just from, what, 19 organs transplanted over a period of time, I can’t imagine you not being able to accept 3 (or two for growth, while the coil just adds to durability) organs being transplanted to add some more muscle mass and regenerate damaged/destroyed tissue all while hooked up to powerful medical devices just like aspirants are. Keep in mind, a youth becoming a space marine is just a human boy, with the body of one, and Marine becoming a Primaris is a space marine with the body of a space marine, the peak health state that doesn’t tire or become sick, etc. Its more plausible that a superhuman could be made more superhuman than a teenager (or full adult, as I believe the Great Khan had at least a couple of successes with) could be.

After the new growth, it’s normal space marine rules.

An aspirant grows into a space marine over a period of years, the organs affect their growth and development. The creation of a primaris from an aspirant is the same only with additional organs causing increased development. Changing the development of a growing organism is more plausible than causing spontaneous changes in one that is already fully developed.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Head canon: Cawl is actually an agent of The Master from Doctor Who. The primaris process and organs he uses are actually creating space marine / Timelord metacrisis hybrids. The death / healing kickstart we see is actually a Timelord Regeneration.

nareik wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Head canon: Cawl is actually an agent of The Master from Doctor Who. The primaris process and organs he uses are actually creating space marine / Timelord metacrisis hybrids. The death / healing kickstart we see is actually a Timelord Regeneration.

Somehow that's better than both Dr Who and GW's recent writing.

Hey, last night's episode was really good!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hey, last night's episode was really good!

Sadly, I haven't seen it yet. What I have seen is that people in the current series ignore canon and sense but I suspect me explaining my issues with Dr Who is OT.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hey, last night's episode was really good!

Though you cannot deny GW are literally doing the Doctor's plan from the end of that episode.

What's step 2 with Primaris GW?
Fix the mess we made with step 1!

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUkaTcoM_2Q&list=PLx6N3LVwgba2DoXWGXq-lANYAamQTsWw9&index=50

Bad source. That guy's logic is pretty iffy most of the time. If Ramliez, Luetin, or Occula Imperia released something to the same effect it might lend some credence.

I concur. Arch isn't great, his logic often doesn't stand testing (or basic reasoning) and, on a personal note, I find his general presentation/vocal inflection to be grating and OTT even after making reasonable allowance for the fact it's not his first language (his actual spoken english is excellent but not every 'r' needs to be rolled, mate).

Makes sense, most of the Mechanicus' job isn't making new sh!t anyways, but recovering old sh!t and making it work.

Also, ruling on the moral and canonical value of recovered technology.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And whilst we’re in this particular rabbit hole, physical resilience and speed of reaction, against a more experienced foe, counts for a lot.

Consider. Space Marines are hard to make, regardless of Loyalist or Traitor, correct?

So in general terms, if I could offer an army troops capable of swift learning, which was also harder to kill, to take on a less physically capable (relatively speaking) but far more experienced and blooded foe, why wouldn’t you accept?

After all. Experience is something anyone can gain in any field. And is ultimately irreplacable in any war machine.

Consider that when the Primaris take the field, they’re slaying Veterans. And given their production is the result of 10,000 years of trial and error, backed with the full industrial might of The Imperium? They’re superb warriors of attrition.

Yes, Chaos forces are less fussy about who goes under the knife. Indeed, if we look at the numbers and state of recruitment pools during the Great Crusade, it seems the Loyalist Chapters are being overly fussy in terms of recruitment...

But how do Chaos store the bits and bobs necessary? If bodies are lost during a raid, do they have opportunity to recover gene seed or not? And can they do it ‘properly’, as Loyalists do? That I honestly don’t know. Perhaps it’s covered in a book I’ve not read, wouldn’t be the first time!

But either way.... Chaos loses its one edge - experience. Many Traitors have been around since The Great Crusade itself. Every single one lost is a serious blow to the war effort.

Primaris? Better able to survived. And thanks to the Rubicon, even seriously wounded First Born can get the upgrade, not only returning them to the fray, but their experience.

It’s a solid concept, Primaris is!

Which is all fine and "reasonable", but it stands in opposite of some older themes which I preferred. The classic version is that loyalists and Chaos are the mirror to one another, with minor differences.

Loyalists are more structured, cohesive and loyal (AKSKNF)

Chaos are less structured, and less loyal to start with, but gain power through experience and corruption. (older incarnations had stronger options for veterans, Marks did more, etc.)

Loyalists died, or were lost. (in particular, Primarchs)

Chaos had the chance to gain immortality, or exist beyond normal time constraints via the warp. (Daemon Princes, Daemon Primarchs, Veterans of the Long War, etc.)


- - -

The tone is a little different when your "starter kit" Space Marine is just strictly superior than your starter-kit Chaos Marine in every way. I really think GW missed the mark on this one. The 'good' heroism of the former Loyalist vs. Chaos relationship is one of regimen, sacrifice, and a "stiff upper lip". The new paradigm is a little too . . . 'roided-meatheads.

In the end, my beef with Primaris ultimately has little to do with the in-universe reasoning, and is almost entirely to do with the out-of-universe reasoning.

I like to think that Cawl also drew from the genetic techniques used to make the 30K Chymeriae Blackshields, and that he's tried this before, probably with the Cursed Founding and any pre-Primaris Astartes that were totally not derived from traitor genestock. Primaris are just him getting the process fully right.

I'm on board with all this.

Just to add to it. When I have had people in local store argue that "primaris were suppose to be immune to genetic flaws, they've already gone back on that, death company intercessors".

a. They never explicitly stated that they were immune. They always advertised it like the IoM's false advertising things. God emperor and all that.

b. The black rage isn't technically a gene flaw. It's a psychic wave from Sanguin's death that bounced through ALL of his sons.

Kurnost wrote:
I like to think that Cawl also drew from the genetic techniques used to make the 30K Chymeriae Blackshields, and that he's tried this before, probably with the Cursed Founding and any pre-Primaris Astartes that were totally not derived from traitor genestock. Primaris are just him getting the process fully right.

That's pretty much my headcannon - and things like the Centurion Warsuit were him trying to help out.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
I'm on board with all this.

Just to add to it. When I have had people in local store argue that "primaris were suppose to be immune to genetic flaws, they've already gone back on that, death company intercessors".

a. They never explicitly stated that they were immune. They always advertised it like the IoM's false advertising things. God emperor and all that.

b. The black rage isn't technically a gene flaw. It's a psychic wave from Sanguin's death that bounced through ALL of his sons.

Yeah, I read it as confirmation that the black rage is in fact not a gene flaw at all. And regardless it wouldn't be a ret-con, it would just be that Cawl was either wrong or misleading with his claims.

In terms of Blood Angels...

It could be something unique to the denizens of Baal, as much as a flaw in the gene seed (for those who haven’t read the Heresy novels, it existed before Sanguinius snuffed it).

Or it could be Baalites (Ballians? Baaloons?) have a unique mutation, triggered by the harsh environment which reacts poorly with some element of the Astartification?

Purely speculation on my part.

I believe it is "Baal-ians" until they succumb to the black rage, at which point they become "Baal-loons".

But more seriously, that doesn't explain successor chapters that recruit from other planets having the black rage.

The funny thing is that the now-Angels Penitent discovered that the black rage can be largely suppressed with art therapy, like, you know, actual anger management

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In terms of Blood Angels...

It could be something unique to the denizens of Baal, as much as a flaw in the gene seed (for those who haven’t read the Heresy novels, it existed before Sanguinius snuffed it).

Or it could be Baalites (Ballians? Baaloons?) have a unique mutation, triggered by the harsh environment which reacts poorly with some element of the Astartification?

Purely speculation on my part.

Actually psychic wave can still be the answer. Warp is through space/time. Powers can take place through space/time. Forsight etc etc.

When Sanguin himself succumbs to the black rage in Ruinstorm he see's Horus. His son's always have the black rage issue because he was always going to die at the hands of Horus. As such it ripples through ALL of his sons, at any point.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe it is "Baal-ians" until they succumb to the black rage, at which point they become "Baal-loons".

But more seriously, that doesn't explain successor chapters that recruit from other planets having the black rage.

The funny thing is that the now-Angels Penitent discovered that the black rage can be largely suppressed with art therapy, like, you know, actual anger management

This raised a new topic whilst I was digesting.

We know that Geneseed changes it’s owner/implanted, yes? And eventually, the progenies glands in turn produce new Geneseed.

Could that new Geneseed have been edited by its host? Because if The Black Rage is in fact an artefact of Baaloons distinct genetic makeup, it could be why even subsequent founders suffer from it?

And as an aside, I still haven’t been able to find a straight answer as to whether Progenoids are a ‘one and done’, only harvested at death, or whether, provided an Astartes lives long enough, they reform for second and subsequent harvesting?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe it is "Baal-ians" until they succumb to the black rage, at which point they become "Baal-loons".

But more seriously, that doesn't explain successor chapters that recruit from other planets having the black rage.

The funny thing is that the now-Angels Penitent discovered that the black rage can be largely suppressed with art therapy, like, you know, actual anger management

This raised a new topic whilst I was digesting.

We know that Geneseed changes it’s owner/implanted, yes? And eventually, the progenies glands in turn produce new Geneseed.

Could that new Geneseed have been edited by its host? Because if The Black Rage is in fact an artefact of Baaloons distinct genetic makeup, it could be why even subsequent founders suffer from it?

And as an aside, I still haven’t been able to find a straight answer as to whether Progenoids are a ‘one and done’, only harvested at death, or whether, provided an Astartes lives long enough, they reform for second and subsequent harvesting?

It's the same gene seed though. It's in all blood angel gene seed and that's where it comes from not the recruits. If all the BA swapped to Fist gene seed then they'd probably be fine.

It's both. One set you can only harvest upon death and one grows and reforms every five years. The death geneseed is better because that passes down more of the Marines skills and knowledge in the minds of Apothecaries.

Ahhh, but if the other Geneseed includes experiences of its original Host, then the Host must therefore be able, unconsciously, to edit its Geneseed.

So all those implanted in Baaloons (I am so taken with that term!) have, potentially, and entirely speculatively, passed on the curse to others?

I think SeanDavid has a really good point, with the nature of the warp creating a 'fate' wherein the Black Rage always existed, because Sang was always going to die at the hands of Horus.

Eurgh, time travel plots...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ahhh, but if the other Geneseed includes experiences of its original Host, then the Host must therefore be able, unconsciously, to edit its Geneseed.

So all those implanted in Baaloons (I am so taken with that term!) have, potentially, and entirely speculatively, passed on the curse to others?

No. They THINK it passes on experience in the same way they THINK they need to appease their guns to stop them jamming. Gene seeds don't get better with repeated implantation, in fact it's probably the opposite.

The curse is a genetic flaw that is passed on because it's all blood angel gene seed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Eurgh, time travel plots...

I'm guessing you don't like the legacy of Caliban trilogy then.

There's a lot of books I don't like, no. Time travel plots, however, are very, VERY easy to mess up.

The most I want from time travel in 40k is deterministic vouyerism - either visions of events that have or will happen that no one can change, or random warp jump shenanigans no one can predict or reliably use.

I don't think this specific plot point qualifies; no one is travelling through time. Just the psychic echo of an event reverberating both backwards and forwards. Just like throwing a stone into a stream produces ripples going both upstream and downstream.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just the psychic echo of an event reverberating both backwards and forwards. Just like throwing a stone into a stream produces ripples going both upstream and downstream.

In other words, time travel. Cause your actions don't impact the past normally.

Hasn't the Warp ALWAYS had an element of time travel to it though?

Like, Slaanesh has always existed, but was created by the fall of the Eldar, in a similar manner? Or ships being able to time travel accidentally via the Warp (such as the story of an Ork who accidentally goes back in time, and kills himself, so he can have a spare copy of his favourite gun?)

This isn't really a new development, and it's not like this is some kind of "stopping the future" kind of thing. The analogy of a stone's throw rippling across time in all directions is pretty apt.

 Melissia wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just the psychic echo of an event reverberating both backwards and forwards. Just like throwing a stone into a stream produces ripples going both upstream and downstream.

In other words, time travel. Cause your actions don't impact the past normally.

More like a Jeremy Bearimy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Like, Slaanesh has always existed, but was created by the fall of the Eldar

Slaanesh existed before the fall of the Eldar, but was awakened or "birthed" by the fall of the Eldar-- not "created".

Whether or not any of the Chaos Gods actually existed at the beginning of the galaxy is up for debate. They claim they did, but they're unreliable sources of information. I'm fairly certain they were all "conceived" during the War in Heaven between the Necrontyr/C'tan and the Old Ones/early Eldar/Kr'orks, which was such a massive feth-all war that it screwed the Immaterium up in to becoming the Warp.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or ships being able to time travel accidentally via the Warp (such as the story of an Ork who accidentally goes back in time, and kills himself, so he can have a spare copy of his favourite gun?)

The difference there is those things aren't just blatant "HAHAHAHAHAH CHAOS IS ALL POWERFUL AND CANNOT BE RESISTED HAHAHAHAHAH I'M SO EDGY!" boring crap. The Ork thing is played for laughs, for example.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This isn't really a new development

Making massive unstoppable changes to the past actually is a new thing.

Yeah, that's not 'a time-travel plot'. It's just an inescapable result of how the Warp works. Events in realspace that create sufficient psychic trauma in the Warp can cause other events in realspace at different points in time, in either direction. The normal rules of causality get pretty snarled up when you can ping-pong back and forth between a universe with linear time and a parallel universe without.

There's no fundamental difference between Sanguinius' death retroactively corrupting his legion's geneseed and, for example, the first human murder creating Drach'Nyen. Or a daemon talking you into becoming a daemon prince who then turns out to be the same daemon who talked you into becoming it.

That doesn't mean that definitively is the cause of the Black Rage, just that it's a plausible explanation given how the Warp is stated to work.

If you want to be absurdly pedantic about it and claim it's not a time travel plot, it's a "I punched this guy so hard in the face his daddy felt it" plot, which isn't really any better.

I guess I don't see it as time travel either, as history already takes these events into account. Causality might be switched around from a linear time perspective, but taken at a broader view, these things simply are and always have been. There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

jareddm wrote:
I guess I don't see it as time travel either, as history already takes these events into account. Causality might be switched around from a linear time perspective, but taken at a broader view, these things simply are and always have been. There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

What? I don't see what you mean by that.

Slaanesh didn't go back in time because Slaanesh isn't affected by time. It is already in all of time. It exists during all events. There is no point in time, from our perspective, where Slaanesh did not exist, even though we have an event that seemed to birth Slaanesh.

jareddm wrote:
Slaanesh didn't go back in time because Slaanesh isn't affected by time. It is already in all of time. It exists during all events. There is no point in time, from our perspective, where Slaanesh did not exist, even though we have an event that seemed to birth Slaanesh.

Like I said Jeremy Bearimy.

It's not time travel it's 5th/6th dimensional things.

- Dimension 1 adds height.

- Dimension 2 adds length (otherwise known as flatland, the basis of things like Mobius Strips).

- Dimension 3 adds depth.

- Dimension 4 adds Time. (This is our Dimension).

- Dimension 5 adds the ability to move through a linear time line.

- Dimension 6 adds the ability to move through non linear time lines.

So on so forth. Things in the warp exist in the 5th/6th dimension. There is no construct of linear passing. Things that are, have always been. They only become linear and perceive as forward once they come into our realm.

When a deamon comes out of the warp, it is leaving the warp into the materium at all points at the same time. The bloodletter that is killed on board Sanguinius' ship in ruinstorm is the exact same bloodletter that left the warp at the exact same time as the one you put on your table.

All realities slicing through time as the same point folding on top of one another (a time knife) across existences but we can only see one point as we are linear to time. Same way an inhabitant of flatland on a mobius strip won't have any idea they are going in a loop, to them they are simply moving forward.

You mean the Fall then not the War in Heaven.

I'd raise the argument that the Gods are affected by time though. There are times where there's a clear absence of their influence.

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

 Melissia wrote:

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

War in Heaven in the one with Necrontyr (hopefully didn;t butcher that spelling) and the old ones. This is the time where the old ones made Aeldari first. But when the fight broke out they made the orks as an unpredictable foe. (I believe Tyranids were made at this time as well to hunt down anything with a psychic presence as like a clean up crew so the old ones could start again? I might be wrong here.)

The fall is the fall of the Aeldari before IoM took over. Don;t know major details but this is one that involves Slaanesh getting all thirsty for the souls.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

War in Heaven in the one with Necrontyr (hopefully didn;t butcher that spelling) and the old ones. This is the time where the old ones made Aeldari first. But when the fight broke out they made the orks as an unpredictable foe. (I believe Tyranids were made at this time as well to hunt down anything with a psychic presence as like a clean up crew so the old ones could start again? I might be wrong here.)

The fall is the fall of the Aeldari before IoM took over. Don;t know major details but this is one that involves Slaanesh getting all thirsty for the souls.

Tyranids don't have a confirmed origin but really you can think what you like about them. I like to think someone made a bioweapon and lost the off button.

The Fall is basically Slaanesh gestating as the Eldar got more and more hedonistic. Eventually it reaches a critical point and Slaanesh is born, most of the Eldar die, the Eye of Terror forms around the Eldar core worlds and basically everything gets worse for everyone.

The primarchs were...perfect? Lol. From what I read about them, they were an absolute shitshow of mutation, daddy issues and crippling personality flaws.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

War in Heaven in the one with Necrontyr (hopefully didn;t butcher that spelling) and the old ones. This is the time where the old ones made Aeldari first. But when the fight broke out they made the orks as an unpredictable foe. (I believe Tyranids were made at this time as well to hunt down anything with a psychic presence as like a clean up crew so the old ones could start again? I might be wrong here.)

The fall is the fall of the Aeldari before IoM took over. Don;t know major details but this is one that involves Slaanesh getting all thirsty for the souls.

No, I meant the War in Heaven. The one where supposedly "Chaos didn't exist yet." I'm saying that's not true because chaos has always existed, even before their birth.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Like I said Jeremy Bearimy.

Had to remind myself where this was from, but essentially yes. Great show btw

Melissia wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Like, Slaanesh has always existed, but was created by the fall of the Eldar

Slaanesh existed before the fall of the Eldar, but was awakened or "birthed" by the fall of the Eldar-- not "created".

I don't know, I see birthed and created as largely being the same thing.

So, in your interpretation you see it as Slaanesh being dormant, and woken by the Eldar, I see it as the Eldar creating Slaanesh, and the echoes of that birth causing Slaanesh to always have existed.

Whether or not any of the Chaos Gods actually existed at the beginning of the galaxy is up for debate. They claim they did, but they're unreliable sources of information. I'm fairly certain they were all "conceived" during the War in Heaven between the Necrontyr/C'tan and the Old Ones/early Eldar/Kr'orks, which was such a massive feth-all war that it screwed the Immaterium up in to becoming the Warp.

Whereas I've always seen the Chaos Gods having always existed, but could exist acausally.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or ships being able to time travel accidentally via the Warp (such as the story of an Ork who accidentally goes back in time, and kills himself, so he can have a spare copy of his favourite gun?)

The difference there is those things aren't just blatant "HAHAHAHAHAH CHAOS IS ALL POWERFUL AND CANNOT BE RESISTED HAHAHAHAHAH I'M SO EDGY!" boring crap. The Ork thing is played for laughs, for example.

Again, my interpretation of Slaanesh would fall into that same "hahahahah chaos is powerful" as you said. I think I prefer the "Sanguinius' death was SO important psychically that it became written into the blood of his sons in all dimensions of time. I like my BA to be tragic.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This isn't really a new development

Making massive unstoppable changes to the past actually is a new thing.

Again, not really. Slaanesh, as above. But, we clearly have a different interpretation of that event.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Or a daemon talking you into becoming a daemon prince who then turns out to be the same daemon who talked you into becoming it.

.

.. I suddenly want this to be the true story of Fulgrim

BrianDavion wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Or a daemon talking you into becoming a daemon prince who then turns out to be the same daemon who talked you into becoming it.

.

.. I suddenly want this to be the true story of Fulgrim

This actually kind of happens to someone in Black Legion...

the_scotsman wrote:
The primarchs were...perfect? Lol. From what I read about them, they were an absolute shitshow of mutation, daddy issues and crippling personality flaws.

How much of that is due to the Chaos Gods stealing their pods, though, so they were brought up outside of the Imperial Palace?

* * *

Going back to the Blood Angels for a second, I thought the Red Thirst was the genetic mutation on their geneseed, while the Black Rage was (possibly) tied to the use of Sanguinius' blood as an activator lodging some of the Primarch's memories within an aspirant's psyche, which torment them over time... but not as a fixable genetic factor, more of a psychic phenomenon.

 Dysartes wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The primarchs were...perfect? Lol. From what I read about them, they were an absolute shitshow of mutation, daddy issues and crippling personality flaws.

How much of that is due to the Chaos Gods stealing their pods, though, so they were brought up outside of the Imperial Palace?

* * *

Going back to the Blood Angels for a second, I thought the Red Thirst was the genetic mutation on their geneseed, while the Black Rage was (possibly) tied to the use of Sanguinius' blood as an activator lodging some of the Primarch's memories within an aspirant's psyche, which torment them over time... but not as a fixable genetic factor, more of a psychic phenomenon.

It is, but BA still suffered from black rage pre Sanguin death. Hense this time debate thing.

This is why I'm on about time knife, Jeremy Bearimy and dimensions etc.

It's not a time thing it's a case of Sanguin;s death had that much of a psychic impact it rippled to effect ALL of his sons, past, present and future.

Well Blood Angels are disposed to foresight and premonition, so it’s hardly surprising they are able to ‘experience’ Sanguinius’ death before and after it happened.

Wait, they knew in advance that sang would die fighting horus? Was this common knowledge? How far in advance are we talking about?

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Wait, they knew in advance that sang would die fighting horus? Was this common knowledge? How far in advance are we talking about?

Not necessarily Horus, but they could still receive visions of his impending death.

Musselman wrote:
This all seems to be reasonable and more than likely the case. I like when enough bread crumbs are left in the fluff that you can deduce things without having it completely explained.
I believe in another topic someone said that based on the novel about the Emperor and the Seige of Terra and the warp gate, that the Custodes were supposed to replace the space marines, like the marines did the thunder warriors. Maybe I am wrong but even if it is true, there is still a big gap from primaris to custodes. This just makes the raptors that Corax made all the more intriguing, maybe they were even better than the primaris?

IIRC the timeline was Custodeus, Thunder Warriors, Primarchs and Marines. (And then Primaris).

Going off my flawed memories of Master of Mankind I got that:

Custodeus were the artisinal custom jobs taking years to craft, primachs the improvement on them. The were all warrior scholars, geniuses and leaders of men. Never meant for mass production.

Thunder Warriors were the quickie jobs, refined into Marines after the conquest of Luna and Mars. There's hints the Emperor planned to dispose of them after the Great Crusade, but at the same time he came have had an improved version in mind.

So basically I see nothing wrong in this reasoning, but it's hardly necessary. Genius tech dude works in secret for 10k years to improve the product works for me. I'd just build in something about Guilleman's return giving him that crucial last ingredient sort of thing.