Cawl did not just invent the Primaris.

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**pm713**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hey, last night's episode was really good!

Sadly, I haven't seen it yet. What I have seen is that people in the current series ignore canon and sense but I suspect me explaining my issues with Dr Who is OT.

**Grimtuff**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hey, last night's episode was really good!

Though you cannot deny GW are literally doing the Doctor's plan from the end of that episode.

What's step 2 with Primaris GW?
Fix the mess we made with step 1!

**Semper**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
aphyon wrote:
To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUkaTcoM_2Q&list=PLx6N3LVwgba2DoXWGXq-lANYAamQTsWw9&index=50

Bad source. That guy's logic is pretty iffy most of the time. If Ramliez, Luetin, or Occula Imperia released something to the same effect it might lend some credence.

I concur. Arch isn't great, his logic often doesn't stand testing (or basic reasoning) and, on a personal note, I find his general presentation/vocal inflection to be grating and OTT even after making reasonable allowance for the fact it's not his first language (his actual spoken english is excellent but not every 'r' needs to be rolled, mate).

**IacobusIgnavus**

Makes sense, most of the Mechanicus' job isn't making new sh!t anyways, but recovering old sh!t and making it work.

**Nurglitch**

Also, ruling on the moral and canonical value of recovered technology.

**Insectum7**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And whilst we’re in this particular rabbit hole, physical resilience and speed of reaction, against a more experienced foe, counts for a lot.

Consider. Space Marines are hard to make, regardless of Loyalist or Traitor, correct?

So in general terms, if I could offer an army troops capable of swift learning, which was also harder to kill, to take on a less physically capable (relatively speaking) but far more experienced and blooded foe, why wouldn’t you accept?

After all. Experience is something anyone can gain in any field. And is ultimately irreplacable in any war machine.

Consider that when the Primaris take the field, they’re slaying Veterans. And given their production is the result of 10,000 years of trial and error, backed with the full industrial might of The Imperium? They’re superb warriors of attrition.

Yes, Chaos forces are less fussy about who goes under the knife. Indeed, if we look at the numbers and state of recruitment pools during the Great Crusade, it seems the Loyalist Chapters are being overly fussy in terms of recruitment...

But how do Chaos store the bits and bobs necessary? If bodies are lost during a raid, do they have opportunity to recover gene seed or not? And can they do it ‘properly’, as Loyalists do? That I honestly don’t know. Perhaps it’s covered in a book I’ve not read, wouldn’t be the first time!

But either way.... Chaos loses its one edge - experience. Many Traitors have been around since The Great Crusade itself. Every single one lost is a serious blow to the war effort.

Primaris? Better able to survived. And thanks to the Rubicon, even seriously wounded First Born can get the upgrade, not only returning them to the fray, but their experience.

It’s a solid concept, Primaris is!

Which is all fine and "reasonable", but it stands in opposite of some older themes which I preferred. The classic version is that loyalists and Chaos are the mirror to one another, with minor differences.

Loyalists are more structured, cohesive and loyal (AKSKNF)

Chaos are less structured, and less loyal to start with, but gain power through experience and corruption. (older incarnations had stronger options for veterans, Marks did more, etc.)

Loyalists died, or were lost. (in particular, Primarchs)

Chaos had the chance to gain immortality, or exist beyond normal time constraints via the warp. (Daemon Princes, Daemon Primarchs, Veterans of the Long War, etc.)

- - -

The tone is a little different when your "starter kit" Space Marine is just strictly superior than your starter-kit Chaos Marine in every way. I really think GW missed the mark on this one. The 'good' heroism of the former Loyalist vs. Chaos relationship is one of regimen, sacrifice, and a "stiff upper lip". The new paradigm is a little too . . . 'roided-meatheads.

In the end, my beef with Primaris ultimately has little to do with the in-universe reasoning, and is almost entirely to do with the out-of-universe reasoning.

**Kurnost**

I like to think that Cawl also drew from the genetic techniques used to make the 30K Chymeriae Blackshields, and that he's tried this before, probably with the Cursed Founding and any pre-Primaris Astartes that were totally not derived from traitor genestock. Primaris are just him getting the process fully right.

**SeanDavid1991**

I'm on board with all this.

Just to add to it. When I have had people in local store argue that "primaris were suppose to be immune to genetic flaws, they've already gone back on that, death company intercessors".

a. They never explicitly stated that they were immune. They always advertised it like the IoM's false advertising things. God emperor and all that.

b. The black rage isn't technically a gene flaw. It's a psychic wave from Sanguin's death that bounced through ALL of his sons.

**beast_gts**

Kurnost wrote:
I like to think that Cawl also drew from the genetic techniques used to make the 30K Chymeriae Blackshields, and that he's tried this before, probably with the Cursed Founding and any pre-Primaris Astartes that were totally not derived from traitor genestock. Primaris are just him getting the process fully right.

That's pretty much my headcannon - and things like the Centurion Warsuit were him trying to help out.

**NinthMusketeer**

SeanDavid1991 wrote:
I'm on board with all this.

Just to add to it. When I have had people in local store argue that "primaris were suppose to be immune to genetic flaws, they've already gone back on that, death company intercessors".

a. They never explicitly stated that they were immune. They always advertised it like the IoM's false advertising things. God emperor and all that.

b. The black rage isn't technically a gene flaw. It's a psychic wave from Sanguin's death that bounced through ALL of his sons.

Yeah, I read it as confirmation that the black rage is in fact not a gene flaw at all. And regardless it wouldn't be a ret-con, it would just be that Cawl was either wrong or misleading with his claims.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

In terms of Blood Angels...

It could be something unique to the denizens of Baal, as much as a flaw in the gene seed (for those who haven’t read the Heresy novels, it existed before Sanguinius snuffed it).

Or it could be Baalites (Ballians? Baaloons?) have a unique mutation, triggered by the harsh environment which reacts poorly with some element of the Astartification?

Purely speculation on my part.

**NinthMusketeer**

I believe it is "Baal-ians" until they succumb to the black rage, at which point they become "Baal-loons".

But more seriously, that doesn't explain successor chapters that recruit from other planets having the black rage.

The funny thing is that the now-Angels Penitent discovered that the black rage can be largely suppressed with art therapy, like, you know, actual anger management

**SeanDavid1991**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In terms of Blood Angels...

It could be something unique to the denizens of Baal, as much as a flaw in the gene seed (for those who haven’t read the Heresy novels, it existed before Sanguinius snuffed it).

Or it could be Baalites (Ballians? Baaloons?) have a unique mutation, triggered by the harsh environment which reacts poorly with some element of the Astartification?

Purely speculation on my part.

Actually psychic wave can still be the answer. Warp is through space/time. Powers can take place through space/time. Forsight etc etc.

When Sanguin himself succumbs to the black rage in Ruinstorm he see's Horus. His son's always have the black rage issue because he was always going to die at the hands of Horus. As such it ripples through ALL of his sons, at any point.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe it is "Baal-ians" until they succumb to the black rage, at which point they become "Baal-loons".

But more seriously, that doesn't explain successor chapters that recruit from other planets having the black rage.

The funny thing is that the now-Angels Penitent discovered that the black rage can be largely suppressed with art therapy, like, you know, actual anger management

This raised a new topic whilst I was digesting.

We know that Geneseed changes it’s owner/implanted, yes? And eventually, the progenies glands in turn produce new Geneseed.

Could that new Geneseed have been edited by its host? Because if The Black Rage is in fact an artefact of Baaloons distinct genetic makeup, it could be why even subsequent founders suffer from it?

And as an aside, I still haven’t been able to find a straight answer as to whether Progenoids are a ‘one and done’, only harvested at death, or whether, provided an Astartes lives long enough, they reform for second and subsequent harvesting?

**pm713**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe it is "Baal-ians" until they succumb to the black rage, at which point they become "Baal-loons".

But more seriously, that doesn't explain successor chapters that recruit from other planets having the black rage.

The funny thing is that the now-Angels Penitent discovered that the black rage can be largely suppressed with art therapy, like, you know, actual anger management

This raised a new topic whilst I was digesting.

We know that Geneseed changes it’s owner/implanted, yes? And eventually, the progenies glands in turn produce new Geneseed.

Could that new Geneseed have been edited by its host? Because if The Black Rage is in fact an artefact of Baaloons distinct genetic makeup, it could be why even subsequent founders suffer from it?

And as an aside, I still haven’t been able to find a straight answer as to whether Progenoids are a ‘one and done’, only harvested at death, or whether, provided an Astartes lives long enough, they reform for second and subsequent harvesting?

It's the same gene seed though. It's in all blood angel gene seed and that's where it comes from not the recruits. If all the BA swapped to Fist gene seed then they'd probably be fine.

It's both. One set you can only harvest upon death and one grows and reforms every five years. The death geneseed is better because that passes down more of the Marines skills and knowledge in the minds of Apothecaries.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Ahhh, but if the other Geneseed includes experiences of its original Host, then the Host must therefore be able, unconsciously, to edit its Geneseed.

So all those implanted in Baaloons (I am so taken with that term!) have, potentially, and entirely speculatively, passed on the curse to others?

**NinthMusketeer**

I think SeanDavid has a really good point, with the nature of the warp creating a 'fate' wherein the Black Rage always existed, because Sang was always going to die at the hands of Horus.

**Melissia**

Eurgh, time travel plots...

**pm713**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ahhh, but if the other Geneseed includes experiences of its original Host, then the Host must therefore be able, unconsciously, to edit its Geneseed.

So all those implanted in Baaloons (I am so taken with that term!) have, potentially, and entirely speculatively, passed on the curse to others?

No. They THINK it passes on experience in the same way they THINK they need to appease their guns to stop them jamming. Gene seeds don't get better with repeated implantation, in fact it's probably the opposite.

The curse is a genetic flaw that is passed on because it's all blood angel gene seed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Eurgh, time travel plots...

I'm guessing you don't like the legacy of Caliban trilogy then.

**Melissia**

There's a lot of books I don't like, no. Time travel plots, however, are very, VERY easy to mess up.

**Hellebore**

The most I want from time travel in 40k is deterministic vouyerism - either visions of events that have or will happen that no one can change, or random warp jump shenanigans no one can predict or reliably use.

**NinthMusketeer**

I don't think this specific plot point qualifies; no one is travelling through time. Just the psychic echo of an event reverberating both backwards and forwards. Just like throwing a stone into a stream produces ripples going both upstream and downstream.

**Melissia**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just the psychic echo of an event reverberating both backwards and forwards. Just like throwing a stone into a stream produces ripples going both upstream and downstream.

In other words, time travel. Cause your actions don't impact the past normally.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Hasn't the Warp ALWAYS had an element of time travel to it though?

Like, Slaanesh has always existed, but was created by the fall of the Eldar, in a similar manner? Or ships being able to time travel accidentally via the Warp (such as the story of an Ork who accidentally goes back in time, and kills himself, so he can have a spare copy of his favourite gun?)

This isn't really a new development, and it's not like this is some kind of "stopping the future" kind of thing. The analogy of a stone's throw rippling across time in all directions is pretty apt.

**SeanDavid1991**

Melissia wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just the psychic echo of an event reverberating both backwards and forwards. Just like throwing a stone into a stream produces ripples going both upstream and downstream.
In other words, time travel. Cause your actions don't impact the past normally.

More like a Jeremy Bearimy.

**Melissia**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Like, Slaanesh has always existed, but was created by the fall of the Eldar

Slaanesh existed before the fall of the Eldar, but was awakened or "birthed" by the fall of the Eldar-- not "created".

Whether or not any of the Chaos Gods actually existed at the beginning of the galaxy is up for debate. They claim they did, but they're unreliable sources of information. I'm fairly certain they were all "conceived" during the War in Heaven between the Necrontyr/C'tan and the Old Ones/early Eldar/Kr'orks, which was such a massive feth-all war that it screwed the Immaterium up in to becoming the Warp.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or ships being able to time travel accidentally via the Warp (such as the story of an Ork who accidentally goes back in time, and kills himself, so he can have a spare copy of his favourite gun?)

The difference there is those things aren't just blatant "HAHAHAHAHAH CHAOS IS ALL POWERFUL AND CANNOT BE RESISTED HAHAHAHAHAH I'M SO EDGY!" boring crap. The Ork thing is played for laughs, for example.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This isn't really a new development

Making massive unstoppable changes to the past actually is a new thing.

**Duskweaver**

Yeah, that's not 'a time-travel plot'. It's just an inescapable result of how the Warp works. Events in realspace that create sufficient psychic trauma in the Warp can cause other events in realspace at different points in time, in either direction. The normal rules of causality get pretty snarled up when you can ping-pong back and forth between a universe with linear time and a parallel universe without.

There's no fundamental difference between Sanguinius' death retroactively corrupting his legion's geneseed and, for example, the first human murder creating Drach'Nyen. Or a daemon talking you into becoming a daemon prince who then turns out to be the same daemon who talked you into becoming it.

That doesn't mean that definitively is the cause of the Black Rage, just that it's a plausible explanation given how the Warp is stated to work.

**Melissia**

If you want to be absurdly pedantic about it and claim it's not a time travel plot, it's a "I punched this guy so hard in the face his daddy felt it" plot, which isn't really any better.

**jareddm**

I guess I don't see it as time travel either, as history already takes these events into account. Causality might be switched around from a linear time perspective, but taken at a broader view, these things simply are and always have been. There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

**pm713**

jareddm wrote:
I guess I don't see it as time travel either, as history already takes these events into account. Causality might be switched around from a linear time perspective, but taken at a broader view, these things simply are and always have been. There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

What? I don't see what you mean by that.