So the Necrons deny the nids any organic matter to reinforce losses due to conflict. They are the Nids but they are better. Does the Lore ever talk about directing the NEcrons at the nids like they do with the Orks on occasion?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So the Necrons deny the nids any organic matter to reinforce losses due to conflict. They are the Nids but they are better. Does the Lore ever talk about directing the NEcrons at the nids like they do with the Orks on occasion?
The silent king is currently trying to reunite the entire necron race to fight the tyranids. He knows that the galaxy is doomed otherwise.
The tyrainds seem to actively avoid the necrons (null fields), but are also known to raze entire tomb worlds if they have to.
Necrons. The necrons have the power to literally delete star systems and basically kind of just edit the Universe. They are OP.
The nids are overrated. Nids fans will squeal about how their true numbers cannot be resisted, but they also can't tell you how many there actually are and instead just expect you to believe their number is basically infinite on faith. They have been repelled by the Imperium, admittedly with heavy costs, many times by a few chapters, nothing like the combined force of the imperium.
That, and everything in the galaxy hates them, including chaos and the orks. If they truly do have enormous numbers, basically everything in the universe would fight them concomitantly.
My Money is on the Necrons.
Edit: Not a Necrons player.
Double edit: Chaos is probably the most potent force of destruction in the universe
Triple edit: Not a chaos player.
Roberts84 wrote: Necrons. The necrons have the power to literally delete star systems and basically kind of just edit the Universe. They are OP.
The nids are overrated. Nids fans will squeal about how their true numbers cannot be resisted, but they also can't tell you how many there actually are and instead just expect you to believe their number is basically infinite on faith. They have been repelled by the Imperium, admittedly with heavy costs, many times by a few chapters, nothing like the combined force of the imperium.
That, and everything in the galaxy hates them, including chaos and the orks. If they truly do have enormous numbers, basically everything in the universe would fight them concomitantly.
My Money is on the Necrons.
Edit: Not a Necrons player.
Double edit: Chaos is probably the most potent force of destruction in the universe
Triple edit: Not a chaos player.
The silent king gak his metal pants when he saw the tyranid fleet when traveling beyond the galaxy. And he also knows that he has to reunite the entire necron race if they are to stand a chance.
Roberts84 wrote: Necrons. The necrons have the power to literally delete star systems and basically kind of just edit the Universe. They are OP.
The nids are overrated. Nids fans will squeal about how their true numbers cannot be resisted, but they also can't tell you how many there actually are and instead just expect you to believe their number is basically infinite on faith. They have been repelled by the Imperium, admittedly with heavy costs, many times by a few chapters, nothing like the combined force of the imperium.
That, and everything in the galaxy hates them, including chaos and the orks. If they truly do have enormous numbers, basically everything in the universe would fight them concomitantly.
My Money is on the Necrons.
Edit: Not a Necrons player.
Double edit: Chaos is probably the most potent force of destruction in the universe
Triple edit: Not a chaos player.
The silent king gak his metal pants when he saw the tyranid fleet when traveling beyond the galaxy. And he also knows that he has to reunite the entire necron race if they are to stand a chance.
Uh-huh.
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
That is true.
Yet, it is still stated in the lore that the silent king has to reunite the necron race if they are to stand a chance of preventing the galay from being nommed. He might even be too late (stated by the man himself)
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
That is true.
Yet, it is still stated in the lore that the silent king has to reunite the necron race if they are to stand a chance of preventing the galay from being nommed. He might even be too late (stated by the man himself)
In the lore Kaldor Draigo soloed a bloodthirster and shooed away Mortarion.
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
That is true.
Yet, it is still stated in the lore that the silent king has to reunite the necron race if they are to stand a chance of preventing the galay from being nommed. He might even be too late (stated by the man himself)
In the lore Kaldor Draigo soloed a bloodthirster and shooed away Mortarion.
"I dont like that bit of lore, so lets ignore it, and go with my headcannon instead"
Necrons cannot win against the Tyranids alone either. The lore is rather clear that unless all the factions of the Milky Way unite they stand no chance against the comming swarm of Tyranids. That's why the Time of Ending used to start when the Nids arrived in the Milky Way. The Silent King is actually doing his part and tries to unite his race to give himself a chance to survive. The Necrons have the technology to destroy planets and star systems, but it also specifically mention that it's not a tool to play with without great care as it's likely to backfire and cause all sorts of unintended consequences. It might be, at best a recepe for mutual destruction and at worst a Necron suicide buttons as it's not even said that destroying all life in the Milky Way would kill the Tyranids. To be fair though, Necrons are the most adapted to fight off the Tyranids and potentially survive until the galaxy is devoured. Both are, ironically, well suited to ignore each other.
epronovost wrote: Necrons cannot win against the Tyranids alone either. The lore is rather clear that unless all the factions of the Milky Way unite they stand no chance against the comming swarm of Tyranids.
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
That is true.
Yet, it is still stated in the lore that the silent king has to reunite the necron race if they are to stand a chance of preventing the galay from being nommed. He might even be too late (stated by the man himself)
In the lore Kaldor Draigo soloed a bloodthirster and shooed away Mortarion.
"I dont like that bit of lore, so lets ignore it, and go with my headcannon instead"
I don't have any headcannon. My point is that the lore is often incredibly schit. I'm sure you'll enjoy the canon if/when it turns out the Nids are creations of the Necrons, which is entirely possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's see; Silent King returns to the galaxy as Nids arrive. Nids only eat bioforms, avoid tomb worlds, confrontation with the Necrons, and are only surface-feeders leaving the tombs buried in the center of planets unscathed.
Hmmmm...
Nope, can't imagine how that benefits the Necrons at all.
It's quite possible you're being Dante'd.
Let's see; Silent King returns to the galaxy as Nids arrive. Nids only eat bioforms, avoid tomb worlds, confrontation with the Necrons, and are only surface-feeders leaving the tombs buried in the center of planets unscathed.
The tyranids will raze entire tomb worlds if there is biomass to be gained.
Tyranids 8th edition:
"Hive Fleet Scitalis winds its way into the Eastern Fringe, embedding itself deep into sectors held by the T’au Empire. Hive Fleet Arachnae has found itself embroiled in a long war against the Necrons of the Novokh Dynasty, as it attempts to consume and despoil planets that the Overlords have long claimed as their own"
Necrons 8th edition.
"Much of the territory once ruled by the Charnovokh Dynasty lies far to the galactic south east. Many of its dormant tomb worlds were devoured by Hive Fleet Behemoth, and countless others have been ravaged during the Imperium’s counter attacks against the Tyranids."
The tombs are not thousands of kilometers under the surface.. We are talking a few km at most. So they are not safe from the tyranids (as mentioned above).
"The devastation of Baal"
Spoiler:
‘They take even the metal,’ said Erwin.
The Servile of the Watch looked up from his podium over the augur pits, where baseline humans less fortunate than he laboured in unbreakable communion with the ship, their eyes and ears removed and sensory cortexes plugged directly into the auspectoria’s cogitators.
‘They take minerals of every kind, my lord,’ said the servile. ‘I have compared spectrographic analysis of this world with records of how it was. It shows massive depletion of all main range elements. The devourer remakes the worlds it consumes. Although I notice a small inconsistency with the oldest records of tyrannic-stripped worlds.’
‘Small enough for me to ignore?’ asked Erwin. The Servile of the Watch was an earnest fellow, genuinely fascinated with his work. He had been known to bore his masters with unnecessary detail.
The servile pulled a neutral expression, making his slave tattoos shift across his face, a sense of motion exaggerated by the low light of the command deck. The Servile of the Watch was unusually expressive for one of his breed. ‘Whether it is relevant or not I shall leave to your deep percipience, my lord.’
Erwin grunted. ‘Edify me then.’
‘The older worlds show a larger loss of mass. The tyranids spent longer on each, digesting parts of the planetary crust.
Tyranids have always remained something from outside the Galaxy.
As for Tyranids VS Necrons note that the Necrons, whilst wanting to destroy all life, also don't seem to want to destroy all planets at the same time. Furthermore their planet destroying technology appears to have functional and practical limitations.
In addition if they started going on a campaign of blowing up all the planets to defeat the Tyranids purely by denial of resources, you can bet other races would take notice. It's the kind of mega event that gets the Imperium charging in; Chaos would not like the idea of losing worlds that they could otherwise corrupt; Orks would see it that the Necrons were being the biggest baddest thing and that means you gotta go WAAARGH and stomp em. Eldar would have some shadowy secret reason it shouldn't happen etc...
Even when the Imperium was only torching its own worlds that campaign hit a political wall; and that was only Exterminatus burning off the surface of planets.
In short denial of resources to Tyranids is not really a solution to the invasion. It'as a last-ditch option that would only work if you obliterate all organic and mineral matter in the Galaxy. At which point whilst the Tyranids don't get to feed, you've also lost anyway.
The problem with any discussion on Tyranids is that
1) We don't actually know their end-game in any way. Note all the lore for them is written from other factions points of view; we get hints here and there, but even studies are very basic. The whole "they exist only to feed" is clearly a gross simplification as tyranids display advanced tactics and target selection. If anything they are conducting their own war of resource denial on the rest of the Galaxy - more so than focusing on feeding alone.
2) We don't know their total numbers in any shape nor form. What we encounter might be splinterfleets; scouting fleets; the full invasion force. You can't measure how well you're doing against the race because you've utterly no concept of their numbers. You can only measure how well your'e doing against known entities in the Galaxy. This sets most forces (including Necrons) at a disadvantage because you can't measure your reactions. Is that hive fleet a major fleet worth sacrificing whole systems over; or is it just a small fleet that's not even worth paying attention too whilst you reinforce for a bigger threat somewhere else?
3) We don't know their distribution of their total numbers outside the Galaxy. If you knew there'd be about 1 hive fleet every x number of years you can measure reactions to counter and cope. However you've no idea of distribution so its again very hard to measure a reaction to them.
1) We don't actually know their end-game in any way.
Not this again.. They literally nail it to the wall in the 8th edition codex.
"Vast swathes of the galaxy have already been stripped of life, and with every passing year the hive fleets push deeper into regions of populated space. Even as the prey races direct their forces to repel these threats, still more Tyranid fleets approach from the intergalactic void and emerge from their aeons-long slumbers. The thought processes of the Hive Mind are gathering pace as more Tyranids wake and recall the age-old purpose of their kind – feed, grow, survive."
Note all the lore for them is written from other factions points of view
That simply isn't true. The codexes are clearly presented by an all-knowing 3rd person wirter. Ditto with BL books like "The devastation of baal".
In both cases we are being fed information that the races of the galaxy are not aware of, which means that it cant be from their point of view..
So, honest question: How come the Arch magos Rulesareforchumps mclorebreak hassn't developed some kind of galactic raid/ant poison that deletes the core of their species starting with a single drone?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, honest question: How come the Arch magos Rulesareforchumps mclorebreak hassn't developed some kind of galactic raid/ant poison that deletes the core of their species starting with a single drone?
Because every hive fleet isn’t connected. The bio toxin route has been done successfully at least twice, by the Blood Ravens and the Farsight Enclaves. In each case they took down their primary target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, honest question: How come the Arch magos Rulesareforchumps mclorebreak hassn't developed some kind of galactic raid/ant poison that deletes the core of their species starting with a single drone?
Because every hive fleet isn’t connected. The bio toxin route has been done successfully at least twice, by the Blood Ravens and the Farsight Enclaves. In each case they took down their primary target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, honest question: How come the Arch magos Rulesareforchumps mclorebreak hassn't developed some kind of galactic raid/ant poison that deletes the core of their species starting with a single drone?
Because there is no way to infect all Tyranids simultaneously with a poison capable of killing all their organism which are varied and from different species. "Tyranid" is an entire taxonomical class not a single species, genus or even family. It has been attempted before with limited success, but since Tyranids have a super intelligence governing and uniting them all, the first thing all Tyranids do is develop a defense mechanism against such a venom just like insects do, but a lot more efficiently and quickly. In turn, that poison becomes known to them and they can play with it to harm humans in turn.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, honest question: How come the Arch magos Rulesareforchumps mclorebreak hassn't developed some kind of galactic raid/ant poison that deletes the core of their species starting with a single drone?
Because every hive fleet isn’t connected. The bio toxin route has been done successfully at least twice, by the Blood Ravens and the Farsight Enclaves. In each case they took down their primary target.
Ultramarines also pulled it off.
Indeed. Was pretty sure there were other instances, but those two were the only ones I could recall with certainty.
Necrons, really. Even if Tyranids 'won' and stripped the galaxy of life then moved on the Necrons would still be there. Heck some of them probably wouldn't even wake up!
There are so many lore "outs" the writers could do. "Anti-Nid Psychic crud, or some form of Emperor class weapon psychic weapon that could cut the link between the hive mind(s?) and the troops. I am betting if Cain can single handidly take down lictors and mawlocs with just a chainsword and a laspistol, then the writers can do whatever they want, lore be damned.
The Orkz had some sort of device that interfered with the Hive Mind. If I remember correctly, the Mechanicus has it now and is trying to make it work. So I'd say the Necrons could probably figure out something similar.
flandarz wrote: The Orkz had some sort of device that interfered with the Hive Mind. If I remember correctly, the Mechanicus has it now and is trying to make it work. So I'd say the Necrons could probably figure out something similar.
I bet you the hive mind will figure out a counter.
From "the devastation of baal".
"Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents."
NinthMusketeer wrote: Necrons, really. Even if Tyranids 'won' and stripped the galaxy of life then moved on the Necrons would still be there. Heck some of them probably wouldn't even wake up!
The necrons will be trapped in their metal bodies for eternity if the tyranids pick the galaxy clean of life.
I assume the easiest fix would be to make the psychic connection between its parts stronger than the device could interfere with. That's assuming it's just some sort of psychic static, of course. If it's instead "flooding the airwaves with Orky thoughts" boosting your own signal may make you susceptible to those thoughts, which I figure would be pretty bad for the Hive Mind.
flandarz wrote: The Orkz had some sort of device that interfered with the Hive Mind. If I remember correctly, the Mechanicus has it now and is trying to make it work. So I'd say the Necrons could probably figure out something similar.
I bet you the hive mind will figure out a counter.
From "the devastation of baal".
"Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents."
NinthMusketeer wrote: Necrons, really. Even if Tyranids 'won' and stripped the galaxy of life then moved on the Necrons would still be there. Heck some of them probably wouldn't even wake up!
The necrons will be trapped in their metal bodies for eternity if the tyranids pick the galaxy clean of life.
It's really easy to just grab some meat things and store them. Hell even if the Tyranids ate everyone now they could just use Trazyn the Hoarders 'gallery'. Necrons aren't threatened by Tyranids at all.
pm713 wrote: Necrons aren't threatened by Tyranids at all.
You might want to read up on the 7th-8th edition lore..
Necrons 7th edition.
"The Silent King returns from his self-imposed exile having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void. Realising the threat they pose to the Necrons, he sets about stirring tomb worlds yet to revive. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity, his influence can be felt throughout the Necron Empire"
Then expanded on in the 8th edition codex:
"In c.744.M41, the Silent King enters the bounds of the galaxy once more. Having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void, he realises that if these horrifying creatures are left unchecked they may consume every living thing in the galaxy before the Necrons can achieve their apotheosis. Returning from his self-imposed exile, the Silent King begins a pilgrimage across the galaxy, stirring tomb worlds yet to revive and speeding the recovery of those already awakened. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity–working through Triarch Praetorians or unwitting Crypteks and Overlords – the Silent King’s influence is felt from one side of the galaxy to the other. Slowly, he pursues his great work from the shadows, hoping that it is not already too late to atone for his past failures."
pm713 wrote: Necrons aren't threatened by Tyranids at all.
You might want to read up on the 7th-8th edition lore..
Necrons 7th edition.
"The Silent King returns from his self-imposed exile having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void. Realising the threat they pose to the Necrons, he sets about stirring tomb worlds yet to revive. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity, his influence can be felt throughout the Necron Empire"
Then expanded on in the 8th edition codex:
"In c.744.M41, the Silent King enters the bounds of the galaxy once more. Having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void, he realises that if these horrifying creatures are left unchecked they may consume every living thing in the galaxy before the Necrons can achieve their apotheosis. Returning from his self-imposed exile, the Silent King begins a pilgrimage across the galaxy, stirring tomb worlds yet to revive and speeding the recovery of those already awakened. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity–working through Triarch Praetorians or unwitting Crypteks and Overlords – the Silent King’s influence is felt from one side of the galaxy to the other. Slowly, he pursues his great work from the shadows, hoping that it is not already too late to atone for his past failures."
All that proves is that Johnny Tightlips is worried they'll kill everything before he does and steal his thunder.
pm713 wrote: Necrons aren't threatened by Tyranids at all.
You might want to read up on the 7th-8th edition lore..
Necrons 7th edition.
"The Silent King returns from his self-imposed exile having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void. Realising the threat they pose to the Necrons, he sets about stirring tomb worlds yet to revive. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity, his influence can be felt throughout the Necron Empire"
Then expanded on in the 8th edition codex:
"In c.744.M41, the Silent King enters the bounds of the galaxy once more. Having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void, he realises that if these horrifying creatures are left unchecked they may consume every living thing in the galaxy before the Necrons can achieve their apotheosis. Returning from his self-imposed exile, the Silent King begins a pilgrimage across the galaxy, stirring tomb worlds yet to revive and speeding the recovery of those already awakened. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity–working through Triarch Praetorians or unwitting Crypteks and Overlords – the Silent King’s influence is felt from one side of the galaxy to the other. Slowly, he pursues his great work from the shadows, hoping that it is not already too late to atone for his past failures."
All that proves is that Johnny Tightlips is worried they'll kill everything before he does and steal his thunder.
Sigh..
The silent king wishes for his people to return to fleshy from. If that is to happen, he/they need to find the perfect host species. That has yet to happen - and wont happen if the tyranids nom them all.
Can we stop with the "but my choice has shields against that" pedantic lore arguments? The lore can be changed at the literal drop of a hat by GW or Goto or whomever. For me it has to be Necrons. Apart from the obvious reasons, in the fluff there is no way for the nids to actually kill the necrons. They will just rebuild./reanimate. We know the necrons possess the ability to straitup CRTL ALT DELETE the Nids if they ever got around to it, why is anyones guess. Also, Intellect wins over Instinct every time. Nids are purely instinct driven, which means they can be controlled.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can we stop with the "but my choice has shields against that" pedantic lore arguments? The lore can be changed at the literal drop of a hat by GW or Goto or whomever. For me it has to be Necrons. Apart from the obvious reasons, in the fluff there is no way for the nids to actually kill the necrons. They will just rebuild./reanimate. We know the necrons possess the ability to straitup CRTL ALT DELETE the Nids if they ever got around to it, why is anyones guess. Also, Intellect wins over Instinct every time. Nids are purely instinct driven, which means they can be controlled.
Tyranids driven by a joint aspect of their own mind and the unity of all their minds together forming the Hive Mind. Furthermore tyranids are made with specific functions.
A gaunt is pretty smart as a fighter, but pretty dim in all other areas. It's pure function is to fight and that's all the intelligence it needs focused into fighting.
Meanwhile a Zoanthrope or Hive Tyrant is a far smarter creature. Above them Norn queens are even smarter. So the higher life forms (often synapse creatures as well) are much more intelligent even if they are isolated from the influence of the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind itself is clearly far beyond purely instinctive intelligence.
You can bet if the Hive Mind were shut down or disrupted, Norn Queens would start to breed far more intelligent Tyranids in general to cope. The reason they dont' right now is that there's basically no need to make a gaunt smarter and give it knowledge in other areas. It's built and bred for a specific purpose and has only what it needs to fill that niche.
In fact the whole concept of "instinctive" intelligence is up for debate anyway. Whilst we like to think of animals as being instinctive and humans as intelligence; anyone doing any reintroduction program knows full well that many animals require quite a lot of education, experiences and training in order to actually "survive in the wild on their instincts".
pm713 wrote: Necrons aren't threatened by Tyranids at all.
You might want to read up on the 7th-8th edition lore..
Necrons 7th edition.
"The Silent King returns from his self-imposed exile having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void. Realising the threat they pose to the Necrons, he sets about stirring tomb worlds yet to revive. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity, his influence can be felt throughout the Necron Empire"
Then expanded on in the 8th edition codex:
"In c.744.M41, the Silent King enters the bounds of the galaxy once more. Having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void, he realises that if these horrifying creatures are left unchecked they may consume every living thing in the galaxy before the Necrons can achieve their apotheosis. Returning from his self-imposed exile, the Silent King begins a pilgrimage across the galaxy, stirring tomb worlds yet to revive and speeding the recovery of those already awakened. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity–working through Triarch Praetorians or unwitting Crypteks and Overlords – the Silent King’s influence is felt from one side of the galaxy to the other. Slowly, he pursues his great work from the shadows, hoping that it is not already too late to atone for his past failures."
I don't. In terms of pure survival the Necrons are absolutely fine, Tyranids can't hurt them as a race. The only way Tyranids threaten Necrons is their weird goal of getting bodies back which the Tyranids also can't stop without going out of their way to exterminate Necrons which isn't their thing. Necrons can easily hide away planets and lifeforms and just wait out the Tyranids as they're immortal.
I don't. In terms of pure survival the Necrons are absolutely fine, Tyranids can't hurt them as a race. The only way Tyranids threaten Necrons is their weird goal of getting bodies back which the Tyranids also can't stop without going out of their way to exterminate Necrons which isn't their thing. Necrons can easily hide away planets and lifeforms and just wait out the Tyranids as they're immortal.
..or in other words "lets just ignore what is written in the actual lore, and go with my fanfiction in stead". This seems to the theme of this thread anyway..
Necrons can easily hide away planets and lifeforms and just wait out the Tyranids as they're immortal.
But ok, lets ignore the fluff for a second, and explore your statement.
The necrons are only just starting to wake, and the silent king no longer holds sway over them, and the milkey way galaxy is a rather big place to explore.
Are you saying that collecting every single lifeform in the galaxy, before the tyranids have nommed them all, will be no problem? Does that seriously seem logical to you?
Keep in mind that the tyranids have already wiped out entire races in the milkey way..
There's a few problems with the "disrupt the Hive Mind and they'll start breeding smarter Nids" statement. The first is that a lot of the Nids success comes from the fact they all act as a singular entity. If the Hive Mind is disrupted, then that advantage is gone. The second problem is that intelligence comes with additional energy costs. Our own brain requires 20% of our total energy in a resting state. The last problem is that increasing the sapience of Nids also increasing the risk of abnormal behavior. Like, maybe, a group of Hormagaunts that decide to live a peaceful life of farming.
None of these are things the Hivemind wants, so while it COULD do them, it's most likely strategy would be to destroy such devices at range, or avoid them entirely.
I don't. In terms of pure survival the Necrons are absolutely fine, Tyranids can't hurt them as a race. The only way Tyranids threaten Necrons is their weird goal of getting bodies back which the Tyranids also can't stop without going out of their way to exterminate Necrons which isn't their thing. Necrons can easily hide away planets and lifeforms and just wait out the Tyranids as they're immortal.
..or in other words "lets just ignore what is written in the actual lore, and go with my fanfiction in stead". This seems to the theme of this thread anyway..
Necrons can easily hide away planets and lifeforms and just wait out the Tyranids as they're immortal.
But ok, lets ignore the fluff for a second, and explore your statement.
The necrons are only just starting to wake, and the silent king no longer holds sway over them, and the milky way galaxy is a rather big place to explore.
Are you saying that collecting every single lifeform in the galaxy, before the tyranids have nommed them all, will be no problem? Does that seriously seem logical to you?
Keep in mind that the tyranids have already wiped out entire races in the milkey way..
It's not really fanfiction when every part of it is in the lore. It's a part of the canon (per the Valedor novel) that if the Tyranids devour everything then what happens is they leave, Chaos runs rampant and starves and then Necrons rule. They have sufficient technology to effectively store large amounts of life forms and materials with stasis, alternate dimensions and just chilling in wild space. They also have very advanced technology and scientists who could easily cultivate biological materials and restart the terraforming of whatever planets they preserved. Time isn't an obstacle when you can sleep for millennia.
That seems moronic to me but you're the one who decided they need all the life forms in the galaxy. But newcron lore is full of stupid things after all.
It's not really fanfiction when every part of it is in the lore.
Yes, it is fanfiction since my point has LITERALLY been printed in every necron codex since 5th edition. This layout of the situation was even featured in the white dwarf og january this year.
That seems moronic to me but you're the one who decided they need all the life forms in the galaxy. But newcron lore is full of stupid things after all.
If finding a host species was an easy task, the silent king probably wouldn't risk the destruction of the necrons race to save the galaxy. But then again, logic clearly isn't one of your strengths..
But that isn't the opposite of what I said at all. None of what that says suggests they can't just store up various materials and life forms and wait it out.
For Necrons making a host species shouldn't be that hard. They know what they used to be (or at least should), they have sufficient knowledge to make artificial bodies and transfer into them and even if they didn't they could just try and nab a Haemonculus and force them to do it.
pm713 wrote: But that isn't the opposite of what I said at all. None of what that says suggests they can't just store up various materials and life forms and wait it out.
For Necrons making a host species shouldn't be that hard. They know what they used to be (or at least should), they have sufficient knowledge to make artificial bodies and transfer into them and even if they didn't they could just try and nab a Haemonculus and force them to do it.
If it was that simple, the silent king probably wouldent go through the bother of reuniting the entire necron race to fight the tyranids..
It's important to remember that there's a lot of "give and take" in Nid physiology. It's why they have such a wide variety of creatures. Termagaunts may not be as powerful as Tyrants, but they require far less resources to create, for example. Even different Hive Fleets have different strengths and weaknesses.
So, I imagine that adapting to overcome any "psychic interference" would come at some kind of cost. Whether it would be worth the cost would probably depend on how frequently the Hive Mind comes across that obstacle.
pm713 wrote: But that isn't the opposite of what I said at all. None of what that says suggests they can't just store up various materials and life forms and wait it out.
For Necrons making a host species shouldn't be that hard. They know what they used to be (or at least should), they have sufficient knowledge to make artificial bodies and transfer into them and even if they didn't they could just try and nab a Haemonculus and force them to do it.
If it was that simple, the silent king probably wouldent go through the bother of reuniting the entire necron race to fight the tyranids..
There's no reason that it isn't that simple. Going by the internal logic of 40k it makes sense. The only reason not to do it is because it's a boring story for GW to write.
pm713 wrote: But that isn't the opposite of what I said at all. None of what that says suggests they can't just store up various materials and life forms and wait it out.
For Necrons making a host species shouldn't be that hard. They know what they used to be (or at least should), they have sufficient knowledge to make artificial bodies and transfer into them and even if they didn't they could just try and nab a Haemonculus and force them to do it.
If it was that simple, the silent king probably wouldent go through the bother of reuniting the entire necron race to fight the tyranids..
There's no reason that it isn't that simple.
Other than the storyline printed in 3 successive necron codexes - and your incredible arrogance ofc.
pm713 wrote: But that isn't the opposite of what I said at all. None of what that says suggests they can't just store up various materials and life forms and wait it out.
For Necrons making a host species shouldn't be that hard. They know what they used to be (or at least should), they have sufficient knowledge to make artificial bodies and transfer into them and even if they didn't they could just try and nab a Haemonculus and force them to do it.
If it was that simple, the silent king probably wouldent go through the bother of reuniting the entire necron race to fight the tyranids..
There's no reason that it isn't that simple.
Other than the storyline printed in 3 successive necron codexes - and your incredible arrogance ofc.
None of that storyline so much as hints that my suggestion wouldn't work. I'm not the one claiming someone is wrong because I say so.
None of that storyline so much as hints that my suggestion wouldn't work.
Other than the fact that reuniting the entire necron race to fight the tyranids doesn't make a lick of sense if your fan theories held true.
I'm not the one claiming someone is wrong because I say so.
You are, to the point where I am unsure if your are trolling or simply just that arrogant.
It does. They can preserve enough materials to regain physical forms but if they allowed Tyranids to devour everything else that would drastically reduce the diversity of the galaxy and therefore their quality of life. They can guarantee having a biological life and their goal can't be stopped by the Tyranids in that sense but it's still in their interests to preserve the galaxy in general.
I'm not though. I've explained the reasoning behind what I've said whereas you just continue to insist I can't possibly have a point, I must be wrong and just insult me. So if you aren't going to start explaining WHY you think parts of the lore stop me having a valid point I'm going to just stop responding to you.
pm713 wrote: So if you aren't going to start explaining WHY you think parts of the lore stop me having a valid point I'm going to just stop responding to you.
I'm not taking the bait again.. You have nice day.
pm713 wrote: Necrons aren't threatened by Tyranids at all.
You might want to read up on the 7th-8th edition lore..
Necrons 7th edition.
"The Silent King returns from his self-imposed exile having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void. Realising the threat they pose to the Necrons, he sets about stirring tomb worlds yet to revive. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity, his influence can be felt throughout the Necron Empire"
Then expanded on in the 8th edition codex:
"In c.744.M41, the Silent King enters the bounds of the galaxy once more. Having encountered the Tyranids in the intergalactic void, he realises that if these horrifying creatures are left unchecked they may consume every living thing in the galaxy before the Necrons can achieve their apotheosis. Returning from his self-imposed exile, the Silent King begins a pilgrimage across the galaxy, stirring tomb worlds yet to revive and speeding the recovery of those already awakened. Though he takes pains to conceal his true identity–working through Triarch Praetorians or unwitting Crypteks and Overlords – the Silent King’s influence is felt from one side of the galaxy to the other. Slowly, he pursues his great work from the shadows, hoping that it is not already too late to atone for his past failures."
All that proves is that Johnny Tightlips is worried they'll kill everything before he does and steal his thunder.
Sigh..
The silent king wishes for his people to return to fleshy from. If that is to happen, he/they need to find the perfect host species. That has yet to happen - and wont happen if the tyranids nom them all.
Its all in the codex. You should give it a read..
Soooooooooo how is it that Tyranids would win then? All you're saying is, end goal wise, the Silent King loses. Imotekh probably don't care, Trazyn probably just wants to get some more trophies, and Zandrekh does...whatever he does.
Soooooooooo how is it that Tyranids would win then?
I never said anyone would win or lose.
Roberts84 stated that the tyranids are not a threat to the necrons, which is untrue. If the silent king does not manage to stop them, the necrons will be trapped in their metal bodies for eternity, and every necron tomb world with life on it will be destroyed (I would consider that a threat). That much we know.
Could the necrons end up being wiped out as a species? Mabye. As it stands now, the tyranids are ignoring tomb worlds without any life on them. But that could change.
Codex tyranids 8th edition:
So, if the necrons start a war with the tyranids, the hive mind might respond by seeking out the necron tomb worlds and destory them to eliminate the threat/competition.
CadianGateTroll wrote: Pfft, Matt Ward had his fiction about the Necrons teaming up with Space Marines i forget which chapter to fight against the nids.
As panned as that was at the time, Necrons are now pretty much shown to be quite intelligent and "alive" for undead ghosts in machines. At least for the upper ranks in charge. Marines have also been shown to take xenos allies in the past - both Eldar and Orks have fought alongside Imperial forces (often against Tyranids). So its not "that bad" however it was hated at the time partly because it was wrapped up in GW making Necrons more than just a whole army of mindless Terminators (the film).
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
That is true.
Yet, it is still stated in the lore that the silent king has to reunite the necron race if they are to stand a chance of preventing the galay from being nommed. He might even be too late (stated by the man himself)
So here's a question:
Let's say all biomatter is stripped from the galaxy.
Why would the necrons...care?
THEY'RE not biomatter. all that would happen is the eldar, orks, humans, tau, and all other races in the way of the necron domination of the galaxy would be gone. They'd just have a perfectly nice, clean, non-organic slate to work with.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can we stop with the "but my choice has shields against that" pedantic lore arguments? The lore can be changed at the literal drop of a hat by GW or Goto or whomever. For me it has to be Necrons. Apart from the obvious reasons, in the fluff there is no way for the nids to actually kill the necrons. They will just rebuild./reanimate. We know the necrons possess the ability to straitup CRTL ALT DELETE the Nids if they ever got around to it, why is anyones guess. Also, Intellect wins over Instinct every time. Nids are purely instinct driven, which means they can be controlled.
Didn't you just provided lore arguments while at the same time saying that lore can be ignored? What if the Tyranids develop a type of minuscule spore that corrodes and "bug" every single Necron soul engram thereby rendering them all lifeless and impossible to repair? imagine, a spore spwed by major Tyranid organism and especially by venomthrope and their cousins. Imagine a Doom of Malantai type of creature that simply cuts them off of one another and them from their body by throwing interference brain waves, etc. Imagine the Tyranid eat a Tomb World and gain access to all of the Necron tech by devouring the engrams of its cryptek (they have devoured for sure several dozens Tomb World) and they create a Tyranid version of their super weapon. Now, Tyranid can press CTRL ALT DELETE on all Necron Tomb Wolrd. If you throw the lore by the window and only go by what's possible or logical, you can get very safely to my scenario.
If I remember correctly, the Silent King spent some time outside the galaxy, yes? So, his fear of the Tyranids could have two different sources. 1) he's seen that the Tyranids can and will devour inorganic material as well. 2) all that isolation and darkness drove him insane and he's "overreacting" to them.
flandarz wrote: If I remember correctly, the Silent King spent some time outside the galaxy, yes? So, his fear of the Tyranids could have two different sources. 1) he's seen that the Tyranids can and will devour inorganic material as well. 2) all that isolation and darkness drove him insane and he's "overreacting" to them.
You need to read through the thread before posting. This has already been answered. Twice.
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
That is true.
Yet, it is still stated in the lore that the silent king has to reunite the necron race if they are to stand a chance of preventing the galay from being nommed. He might even be too late (stated by the man himself)
So here's a question:
Let's say all biomatter is stripped from the galaxy.
Why would the necrons...care?
THEY'RE not biomatter. all that would happen is the eldar, orks, humans, tau, and all other races in the way of the necron domination of the galaxy would be gone. They'd just have a perfectly nice, clean, non-organic slate to work with.
Keep reading through the thread and you will get your answer.
Well, Ican see one reason: the Necrons are dying. They are slowly being consumed by the plague that produces Flayed Ones and the Destroyer virus. They are losing their minds or what's left of it. Without biotransferance, the Necrons are doomed to an inevitable and long decent into madness and death. The second is that organic Necrons will need ecosystems to live in. So even if they secretly stored biomatter that the Hive Mind couldn't detect, They no longer have access to planets to populate. The Necrons are very numerous. They will need hundreds of livable planets to live on and probably thousands more to produce their tech. Tyranids also strip worlds of precious mineral resources and elements. What if they are interested in mineral resources essential to the Necrons tech or even artificial bodies?
flandarz wrote: The Orkz had some sort of device that interfered with the Hive Mind. If I remember correctly, the Mechanicus has it now and is trying to make it work. So I'd say the Necrons could probably figure out something similar.
I bet you the hive mind will figure out a counter.
From "the devastation of baal".
"Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents."
NinthMusketeer wrote: Necrons, really. Even if Tyranids 'won' and stripped the galaxy of life then moved on the Necrons would still be there. Heck some of them probably wouldn't even wake up!
The necrons will be trapped in their metal bodies for eternity if the tyranids pick the galaxy clean of life.
Typical Nids fan response. Nah! They will just evolve and become stronger than everything in the universe ever and not even Batman can beat them!
LOL. Yeah. OK Timmy.
What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?
Roberts84 wrote: What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?
Well technically they have already fought in its vicinity and in other warped areas of the galaxy. As mentionned before, they are developping a Hive Fleet specifically designed to kill daemons and devour corrupted planets. Adapting and getting constantly stronger is pretty much what Tyranids are. The harder you beat them, the stronger they become. Also, as the Tyranid devour more and more worlds, the Gods of Chaos and other Warp entities get weaker. In all logic, should most of the galaxy be consumed by Tyranids, those Warp phenomenon would be weakened and ultimately disapear. The forces of Chaos can believably be defeated by two factions: Necrons and Tyranids.
flandarz wrote: The Orkz had some sort of device that interfered with the Hive Mind. If I remember correctly, the Mechanicus has it now and is trying to make it work. So I'd say the Necrons could probably figure out something similar.
I bet you the hive mind will figure out a counter.
From "the devastation of baal".
"Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents."
NinthMusketeer wrote: Necrons, really. Even if Tyranids 'won' and stripped the galaxy of life then moved on the Necrons would still be there. Heck some of them probably wouldn't even wake up!
The necrons will be trapped in their metal bodies for eternity if the tyranids pick the galaxy clean of life.
Typical Nids fan response. Nah! They will just evolve and become stronger than everything in the universe ever and not even Batman can beat them!
LOL. Yeah. OK Timmy.
What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?
Are you having a stroke?
I don't stroke over 40K. I get the impression you might occasionally. Those seductive Termagants..
Roberts84 wrote: What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?
Well technically they have already fought in its vicinity and in other warped areas of the galaxy. As mentionned before, they are developping a Hive Fleet specifically designed to kill daemons and devour corrupted planets. Adapting and getting constantly stronger is pretty much what Tyranids are. The harder you beat them, the stronger they become. Also, as the Tyranid devour more and more worlds, the Gods of Chaos and other Warp entities get weaker. In all logic, should most of the galaxy be consumed by Tyranids, those Warp phenomenon would be weakened and ultimately disapear. The forces of Chaos can believably be defeated by two factions: Necrons and Tyranids.
Wrong. The Chaos Gods don't just get stronger through human action, it's any action. Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.
Hence why I said earlier that Chaos is the strongest force in the Universe. Probably, anyway.
Roberts84 wrote: It's ridiculous. Ask yourself; do you REALLY want the nids to be invincible?
Nope, and I have never claimed that they are.
Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.
Nope.
From 6th edition:
"No blood was being spilled for Khorne, just putrid alien ichor. All of Nurgles diseases were ineffective in the face of Tyranid adaptation. The deadlock went on for days, and the Lord of Change K'rix'xi'kra blasted its way back to the Malestrom Cradle to abandon the effort. The two remaining Daemon Lords then led a final mad charge against the Tyranids. However the Hive Mind had by this point absorbed their opponents strategies, using Tyrannofexes and Trygons to meet them. The Daemonic lines soon collapsed, and as the Bloodthirster Hak'Vasha was dragged back into the Warp he was still wrestling with three Trygons."
Arcanis161 wrote: All I'm seeing here are some people trying to apply logic to the 40k universe and others stating the lore as actual fact.
This is 40k, with logic and any lore GW decides to change thrown out the window, into a dumpster, and lit on fire for good measure.
Stop it.
The only solution is a duel at dawn! Everyone bring your best pewpew guns to the fight!
OR people can just debate lore and possibilities without childishly getting bent out of shape over it. I mean its not as if anything will change in the world from our discussion here. So just enjoy the lore and different perspectives.
Roberts84 wrote: Ask yourself; do you REALLY want the nids to be invincible? Exactly how rewarding or interesting would that be?
That in my opinion is pretty much entire reason of being of the Tyranids in 40K. They are the great eraser. They come from beyond the galaxy, are older than any other race, are completely alien, do not give a single gak about their enemy. It's just food; it's not personnal. The entire 40K lore is a mythologised story of good against evil, of chaos against order. It's a conflict between heroes and villains and the multitude of sacrifices and shades of grey they all have to take. It's a tragedy of cosmic size and Tyranids are none of that. They are to 40K what the red curtain is to a tragedy. The thing that ends it and washes it all away into nothingness.
Wrong. The Chaos Gods don't just get stronger through human action, it's any action. Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.
I disagree and it seems the fluff too. Tyranids don't have emotions. Gods of Chaos aren't powered by actions, they are powered by thoughts, feelings and desires (which generally lead to actions of course). What fuel Khorne is a desire for blood, destruction and combat not killing. Nurgle is powered by the fear of death, mortality and powerlessness. The Hive Mind does not feel, Tyranids do not fear. Their actions doesn't power the gods of Chaos because they are dispassionate.
Roberts84 wrote: It's ridiculous. Ask yourself; do you REALLY want the nids to be invincible?
Nope, and I have never claimed that they are.
Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.
Nope.
From 6th edition:
"No blood was being spilled for Khorne, just putrid alien ichor. All of Nurgles diseases were ineffective in the face of Tyranid adaptation. The deadlock went on for days, and the Lord of Change K'rix'xi'kra blasted its way back to the Malestrom Cradle to abandon the effort. The two remaining Daemon Lords then led a final mad charge against the Tyranids. However the Hive Mind had by this point absorbed their opponents strategies, using Tyrannofexes and Trygons to meet them. The Daemonic lines soon collapsed, and as the Bloodthirster Hak'Vasha was dragged back into the Warp he was still wrestling with three Trygons."
Every act of killing or murder in the material universe gives Khorne power; the more senseless and destructive, the better.
Every. That is, all.
You keep pimping out the lore like it's coherent and makes any sense at all. It doesn't. In terms of logic it's an utter dog and pony show. It contradicts itself endlessly, and rarely even makes any sense at all. And it doesn't have to, because it's sci-fi. God knows what retcons and amendments will occur over the next year, let alone the next five years.
In terms of logic it's an utter dog and pony show. It contradicts itself endlessly, and rarely even makes any sense at all. And it doesn't have to, because it's sci-fi. God knows what retcons and amendments will occur over the next year, let alone the next five years.
Roberts84 wrote: The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
The Answer is Necrons. Definitely.
The lore is not the only thing to contradict itself it seems.
One should note that while Tyranids can potentially adapt to overcome any obstacle, they likely can't adapt to overcome ALL obstacles. Again, there's a give and take for Nids. Wanna be more resistant to attacks? You're gonna be a bit slower. Wanna be faster? Your carapace is gonna be a little thinner. Wanna do it all? You're gonna hafta use a lot of energy to power that body of yours.
There's a reason why most adaptations tend to be short-lived; the current Nid species have already evolved to be the best they can be (in terms of functionality and resource management) for what they do. When you start tacking on more stuff, things tend to slip in other areas.
In regards to "who would win", I suppose that depends on whether we're talking all Necrons vs a slow trickle of Nids, or whether all the Nids will be there too. And also on how the Necrons would fight. If I recall correctly, Necrons have weaponry which vaporizes its target. So, between the Necrons themselves providing no nutrition and the Nids losing the ability to "recoup their losses", it would be tough for the Nids to overcome a Necron stronghold of, say, a ring of life stripped systems around the rim of the galaxy.
Actually, I suppose the Crons could just do something like that wherever they wanted, and the Nids would consider getting inside to nom on any life they're defending to not be worth it.
There's a reason why most adaptations tend to be short-lived; the current Nid species have already evolved to be the best they can be.
That is not true. Its stated in the the codexes that the hive mind is constantly improving on existing "designs", and creating new organisms, using the genetic material being collected.
This is from "the devastation of baal".
Spoiler:
"More esoteric senses were equally well accounted for. Its electromagnetic profile was minimal. Its brain case was shielded by internal bone structures against energy leakage. The nerves in its body were similarly cloaked. Its hooves were shaped to make the minimum of vibration, and although it could not entirely stop the perturbation of the air made by its movements, its chitinous plates were fluted in precise molecular, fractal patterns to minimise its wake. It gave off no heat. It shed no cells unless damaged. Its psychic link with the hive mind was like spider silk, gossamer thin, strong, and almost impossible to detect.
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor’s advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the others."
Roberts84 wrote: What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?
Well technically they have already fought in its vicinity and in other warped areas of the galaxy. As mentionned before, they are developping a Hive Fleet specifically designed to kill daemons and devour corrupted planets. Adapting and getting constantly stronger is pretty much what Tyranids are. The harder you beat them, the stronger they become. Also, as the Tyranid devour more and more worlds, the Gods of Chaos and other Warp entities get weaker. In all logic, should most of the galaxy be consumed by Tyranids, those Warp phenomenon would be weakened and ultimately disapear. The forces of Chaos can believably be defeated by two factions: Necrons and Tyranids.
They die off but they get a really cool party beforehand. So it's a mixed bag for Chaos if the Nids eat everyone.
Typical Nids fan response. Nah! They will just evolve and become stronger than everything in the universe ever and not even Batman can beat them!
LOL. Yeah. OK Timmy.
What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?
Are you having a stroke?
He's not wrong. Every one of the pro-nids arguments is esentially: "na unh! We have shields against (Insert lore here)" Every. Single. Time. We can "evolve". We can kill immortal races. No one knows how big our fleets are despite numerous hints by GW that the Zerg, ahem, excuse me, the Nids Don't have inexhaustable resources. They were defeated by Ultramar, and by several other battles. Decisively. Those defeats alone indicate 1.: They do not have infinite numbers as a checked box. and 2: They cannot outwit fixed fortifications, which strategically speaking To quote a genuis of war: "Are a monument to the stupidity of man" They do not possess this awesome force driving them. They are essentially slightly above Orks. and Orks can build and operate teleportation and warp devices. Also, If the books of Cain are anything to the actual lore, the Shadow can be blocked and interrupted.
Typical Nids fan response. Nah! They will just evolve and become stronger than everything in the universe ever and not even Batman can beat them!
LOL. Yeah. OK Timmy.
What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?
Are you having a stroke?
He's not wrong. Every one of the pro-nids arguments is esentially: "na unh! We have shields against (Insert lore here)" Every. Single. Time. We can "evolve". We can kill immortal races. No one knows how big our fleets are despite numerous hints by GW that the Zerg, ahem, excuse me, the Nids Don't have inexhaustable resources. They were defeated by Ultramar, and by several other battles. Decisively. Those defeats alone indicate 1.: They do not have infinite numbers as a checked box. and 2: They cannot outwit fixed fortifications, which strategically speaking To quote a genuis of war: "Are a monument to the stupidity of man" They do not possess this awesome force driving them. They are essentially slightly above Orks. and Orks can build and operate teleportation and warp devices. Also, If the books of Cain are anything to the actual lore, the Shadow can be blocked and interrupted.
I know, right?
Remember that kid who always made up new rules and special abilities so that there was no way you could ever possibly beat them at said game?
CadianGateTroll wrote: Pfft, Matt Ward had his fiction about the Necrons teaming up with Space Marines i forget which chapter to fight against the nids.
As panned as that was at the time, Necrons are now pretty much shown to be quite intelligent and "alive" for undead ghosts in machines. At least for the upper ranks in charge. Marines have also been shown to take xenos allies in the past - both Eldar and Orks have fought alongside Imperial forces (often against Tyranids). So its not "that bad" however it was hated at the time partly because it was wrapped up in GW making Necrons more than just a whole army of mindless Terminators (the film).
CadianGateTroll wrote: Pfft, Matt Ward had his fiction about the Necrons teaming up with Space Marines i forget which chapter to fight against the nids.
As panned as that was at the time, Necrons are now pretty much shown to be quite intelligent and "alive" for undead ghosts in machines. At least for the upper ranks in charge. Marines have also been shown to take xenos allies in the past - both Eldar and Orks have fought alongside Imperial forces (often against Tyranids). So its not "that bad" however it was hated at the time partly because it was wrapped up in GW making Necrons more than just a whole army of mindless Terminators (the film).
lol, yeah. I mean either Dante is really fething stupid and got rubed by Johnny tightlips or....well, the alternative is unthinkable. Both possibilities are bad.
There's a reason why most adaptations tend to be short-lived; the current Nid species have already evolved to be the best they can be.
That is not true. Its stated in the the codexes that the hive mind is constantly improving on existing "designs", and creating new organisms, using the genetic material being collected.
This is from "the devastation of baal".
Spoiler:
"More esoteric senses were equally well accounted for. Its electromagnetic profile was minimal. Its brain case was shielded by internal bone structures against energy leakage. The nerves in its body were similarly cloaked. Its hooves were shaped to make the minimum of vibration, and although it could not entirely stop the perturbation of the air made by its movements, its chitinous plates were fluted in precise molecular, fractal patterns to minimise its wake. It gave off no heat. It shed no cells unless damaged. Its psychic link with the hive mind was like spider silk, gossamer thin, strong, and almost impossible to detect.
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor’s advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the others."
Yeah, and that quote is terrible writing and worse biology.
If its even partially true, no lictor should ever be detected at all, and should never be out of synapse, and operating at some level above normal psychic communication (almost impossible to detect). Even in magic space fantasy land, the idea that you can stack infinite improvements on a biological organisms is just absurd. The physical and caloric requirements for that to work at all just aren't viable, and a closed biological system that gives off no heat and doesn't shed cells is just flatly impossible. And that's not even touching absurdities like 'precise but fractal.' Though really it falls down at 'sneaky hooves.' Nope. Hooved animals ain't quiet.
That makes Matt Ward and CS Goto fluff look like utter genius. Its a weirdly out of place masturbatory fantasy of an alien critter that just needs to be somewhat sneaky to get in a tunnel with an all-out war going on to distract the defenders.
I'd just like to point out that every faction in 40K has a "I win" argument in the Lore.
Chaos just mutates something
Imperium just throws more guard at them
Marines become even more plot armoured
Tyranids out-evolve them
Necrons unearth some massive superpowered weapon of ultimate doom from a forgotten temple
Tau spend a week in the garden shed and come out with an even more powerful weapon
Eldar work out some mysterious way to make one of the others do it for them using their trick
Dark Eldar do what the Eldar do, but then overtly stab their "ally" in the back and the front and the side for some fun
Orks just have a bigger WARGH!
Basically every faction has sufficient plot armour and reasoning to out evolve/develop/number/advance the others. That's why the Galaxy is trapped in an eternal stalemate of war. No one faction can get the edge on the others without the others getting the edge on them in return. Boarders shift; territories move; worlds are gained and lost; people live and die - the war remains eternal - Blessed is the Emperor.
The ultimate answer is of course the orks. No matter who wins, they get a better opponent to fight. If they won, then they won. If they die, then they died fighting so it doesn’t count. If they run away, then they’re still alive to fight again so they didn’t lose.
Remember the tag line is “There is only war”. By that logic, at the macro level the entire conflict is a stalemate for all parties, otherwise the conflict would conclude. No one can “win” because there would be a result that isn’t only war.
I will freely admit that SM's have the fluffiest of all the plot armors, followed by Orks, then Chaos. In my opinion.
That being said there are clear and evident logics that we can use: 1+1=2, or Necrons will always seek to eradicate all life. Sisters will always be ludicrously devoted and shouty, Adeptus Stupidous will always find a way to feth over the mission to find some lost forgotten archeotech. They are literally a Carbon copy of Weyland Yutani from the Aliens Franchise.
Using those known logic points we can verifiably predict.....absolutely nothing. GW's team of trained chimps at type writers will alaways lore break. Looking at you Primaris BS.
He's not wrong. Every one of the pro-nids arguments is esentially: "na unh! We have shields against (Insert lore here)" Every. Single. Time. We can "evolve". We can kill immortal races.
Remember that kid who always made up new rules and special abilities so that there was no way you could ever possibly beat them at said game?
Yeah, that kid grew up and became a Nids fan.
Are you two seriously saying that I am the unreasonable one here?
The OP asked if the the necrons could beat the tyranids. Does the lore state anything on this matter? Yes. If the necrons are to beat the tyranids, they will have to unite their forces under one flag.
Have I said who would win that fight? No, because I dont know.
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.
The Answer is Necrons. Definitely.
Orks are as dangerous as Nids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can we stop with the "but my choice has shields against that" pedantic lore arguments? The lore can be changed at the literal drop of a hat by GW or Goto or whomever. For me it has to be Necrons. Apart from the obvious reasons, in the fluff there is no way for the nids to actually kill the necrons. They will just rebuild./reanimate. We know the necrons possess the ability to straitup CRTL ALT DELETE the Nids if they ever got around to it, why is anyones guess. Also, Intellect wins over Instinct every time. Nids are purely instinct driven, which means they can be controlled.
And I am clearly not the one who is making up the lore as I go...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: 2: They cannot outwit fixed fortifications, which strategically speaking To quote a genuis of war: "Are a monument to the stupidity of man" They do not possess this awesome force driving them.
Codex tyranids 8th editon:
"THE FOLLY OF PRIDE
The supposedly impenetrable Iron Warriors fortress world of Forgefane falls to the Tyranids in less than a week."
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: They do not possess this awesome force driving them. They are essentially slightly above Orks. and Orks can build and operate teleportation and warp devices.
8th edition:
"At the rear of the Tyranid swarms, a hulking creature surveyed the carnage, observing the Blood Angels’ strategies, directing its lesser kin to counter their every move with a cunning born of aeons-long warfare. The Swarmlord, herald of the Hive Mind, had been spawned anew to ensure the Blood Angels’ demise."
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We know the necrons possess the ability to straitup CRTL ALT DELETE the Nids if they ever got around to[ it.
They dont though. One dynasty has one device that can take out a star every few thousand years...
What this boils down to, is you two not having read the source material you are trying to discuss. It should be pretty evident by now..
If its even partially true, no lictor should ever be detected at all, and should never be out of synapse,
They are vangurad organims. They dont need the hive mind to guide them just like genestealers.
8th editon:
"The Lictor is a highly specialised development of the Tyranid Warrior bioform, specifically adapted to fill a scout role in the vanguard of the Tyranid advance. Lictors rove ahead of the main body of a swarm, seeking out pockets of resistance to be eradicated and native life forms to be absorbed."
the idea that you can stack infinite improvements on a biological organisms is just absurd.
Thats not what is stated in the quote. Its stated that the lictor can gain new attributes without losing out on prior abilities. But its not stated that this could go on forever.
Voss wrote: The physical and caloric requirements for that to work at all just aren't viable, and a closed biological system that gives off no heat and doesn't shed cells is just flatly impossible. And that's not even touching absurdities like 'precise but fractal.' Though really it falls down at 'sneaky hooves.' Nope. Hooved animals ain't quiet.
It sounds silly because the lictor is a made up creature in the sci-fi universe called "warhammer 40000"..
The Only known C'tan god is the Voidragon, and he's currently at the Center of Mars. He is widely responible for the Men of Iron becomming Sentient and revolting, causing that whole mess? They had machines that literally bit a planet in half and could distort Space/time, or tear holes in the Warp. Yeah, that god, who's on the side of the Necrons. It's actually funny to me, every race has a God or Gods that protect and support them. Except for the Nids? Do they have religion or dieties? I assume that would be the Hive Mind?
Roberts84 wrote: Necrons. The necrons have the power to literally delete star systems and basically kind of just edit the Universe. They are OP.
The nids are overrated. Nids fans will squeal about how their true numbers cannot be resisted, but they also can't tell you how many there actually are and instead just expect you to believe their number is basically infinite on faith. They have been repelled by the Imperium, admittedly with heavy costs, many times by a few chapters, nothing like the combined force of the imperium.
That, and everything in the galaxy hates them, including chaos and the orks. If they truly do have enormous numbers, basically everything in the universe would fight them concomitantly.
My Money is on the Necrons.
Edit: Not a Necrons player.
Double edit: Chaos is probably the most potent force of destruction in the universe
Triple edit: Not a chaos player.
The silent king gak his metal pants when he saw the tyranid fleet when traveling beyond the galaxy. And he also knows that he has to reunite the entire necron race if they are to stand a chance.
Not because they threatened the Necrons but because they threaten the organic life that the necrons need if they’re gonna get back into organic bodies someday. Necrons easily beat Nids since attacking necron worlds would be a complete net loss for them since they can’t eat Necrons and the necron weapons atomise their targets so they can’t even eat their dead. Thats why they avoid tomb worlds unless they have to
NinthMusketeer wrote: I am hoping the newer lore gets re-retconned back to something more like the old lore.
I would like a mix of the old and the new. Bring back the c'tan and keep the necrons sentient. Having the nightbringer fighting the necrons (with his own army of mindless crons) to regain his lost/last shards would be interesting IMO.
Not because they threatened the Necrons but because they threaten the organic life that the necrons need if they’re gonna get back into organic bodies someday. Necrons easily beat Nids since attacking necron worlds would be a complete net loss for them since they can’t eat Necrons and the necron weapons atomise their targets so they can’t even eat their dead. Thats why they avoid tomb worlds unless they have to
NinthMusketeer wrote: I am hoping the newer lore gets re-retconned back to something more like the old lore.
Personally I'd reset to oldcrons, add personality to higher ups like Lords and change some of the sillier bits like the Nightbringer inspiring fear of death in most races to more sensible things. Like using science magic to give the Nightbringer the appearance of whatever a species perceives as death like the Grim Reaper.
Really? The void dragon is still on the necrons side after they betrayed the c'tan and blew them up into shards?
Do you mind telling us where this is stated?
Some Necrons function as though they were being commanded by CTan.
They were never under the control of the c'tan in the newer lore, so that sounds a bit odd. Where is it mentioned?
It was off comments in the 5th and 7th codex, so it wasn't like it was big news, but a way to continue running Necrons as though the old fluff still existed somewhat.
Really? The void dragon is still on the necrons side after they betrayed the c'tan and blew them up into shards?
Do you mind telling us where this is stated?
Some Necrons function as though they were being commanded by CTan.
They were never under the control of the c'tan in the newer lore, so that sounds a bit odd. Where is it mentioned?
It was off comments in the 5th and 7th codex, so it wasn't like it was big news, but a way to continue running Necrons as though the old fluff still existed somewhat.
Can you provide a page number? I cant seem to find it.
I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.
Honestly Necrons using the Webway isn't just lame, it's mind blowingly stupid. They have no credibility as a threat because of it. They exist because Ward needed them to regardless of logic.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.
Honestly Necrons using the Webway isn't just lame, it's mind blowingly stupid. They have no credibility as a threat because of it. They exist because Ward needed them to regardless of logic.
They went a bit too far, yes. But the old lore about the necron navy being able to "cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye" really had to go.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.
Honestly Necrons using the Webway isn't just lame, it's mind blowingly stupid. They have no credibility as a threat because of it. They exist because Ward needed them to regardless of logic.
They went a bit too far, yes. But the old lore about the necron navy being able to "cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye" really had to go.
There is no easy formula, it depends on the situation which determines what forces each side can deploy and which are their victory conditions.
Necrons are far individually superior, which translate to a tactical superiority that allows them to kill many times their number in Tyranids. But Tyranids will almost always hold the strategic advantages, of which the most notable one is numbers, but also usually having the intrinsic initiative of the attacker. Tyranids are more likely to attack Necrons than vice-versa, because the Necrons have to defend their worlds while the Tyranids don't have that concern.
Tyran wrote: Necrons are far individually superior, which translate to a tactical superiority that allows them to kill many times their number in Tyranids.
I don't think that's exactly true. Most Necrons aren't sentient. They are machines with very limited autonomy. It's the case for Necron Warriors who are not much else than automatons with very little of no will of their own. Immortals are combat drones with little iniative, but excellent programming and only then do you enter the realm of real sentient being capable of innovation, adaptation, emotion and true will. This mirror fairly well the mode of organisation of the Tyranids which follow a similar pattern of drones to commanders capable of innovation and improvisation. Tyranids strategical abilities vary in function of the resistance they face and the resources they have at their disposal. Expect a Hive Tyrant with limited resources and a powerful enemy to defeat to be exceptionnaly shrew, using its superhuman intellect and treasure trove of knowledge to achieve victory. The same Hive Tyrant with enormous resources at his disposal will use much simpler tactics as it will yield in the end the same results. Tyranids have been shown to be capable of outsmarting even the most strategically astute membes of the other races (though the opposite has also been shown to be true too).
Tyran wrote: Necrons are far individually superior, which translate to a tactical superiority that allows them to kill many times their number in Tyranids.
I don't think that's exactly true. Most Necrons aren't sentient. They are machines with very limited autonomy. It's the case for Necron Warriors who are not much else than automatons with very little of no will of their own. Immortals are combat drones with little iniative, but excellent programming and only then do you enter the realm of real sentient being capable of innovation, adaptation, emotion and true will. This mirror fairly well the mode of organisation of the Tyranids which follow a similar pattern of drones to commanders capable of innovation and improvisation. Tyranids strategical abilities vary in function of the resistance they face and the resources they have at their disposal. Expect a Hive Tyrant with limited resources and a powerful enemy to defeat to be exceptionnaly shrew, using its superhuman intellect and treasure trove of knowledge to achieve victory. The same Hive Tyrant with enormous resources at his disposal will use much simpler tactics as it will yield in the end the same results. Tyranids have been shown to be capable of outsmarting even the most strategically astute membes of the other races (though the opposite has also been shown to be true too).
With tactical superiority I refer to resources they can bring at the tactical level. Teleportation, phase technology, Cryptek technomagic, gauss and particle weaponry. I don't really refer to tactic themselves, but the resources to implement those tactics.
Tyran wrote: With tactical superiority I refer to resources they can bring at the tactical level. Teleportation, phase technology, Cryptek technomagic, gauss and particle weaponry. I don't really refer to tactic themselves, but the resources to implement those tactics.
I would tend to agree that in a strict Necron vs Tyranids engagement, the Necron have far more tactical tools and resources. Tyranids most interesting tactical tools are poisonnous spores, toxic gas, venom and mind controled cultists are of basically very little to no use against Necrons.
Tyran wrote: With tactical superiority I refer to resources they can bring at the tactical level. Teleportation, phase technology, Cryptek technomagic, gauss and particle weaponry. I don't really refer to tactic themselves, but the resources to implement those tactics.
I would tend to agree that in a strict Necron vs Tyranids engagement, the Necron have far more tactical tools and resources. Tyranids most interesting tactical tools are poisonnous spores, toxic gas, venom and mind controled cultists are of basically very little to no use against Necrons.
Some of those are very useful against Tyranids. Toxic gases can work, you could develop spores that somehow try and block Necron firepower and at the end of the day, when they're shooting the crazy cultist they aren't shooting you. Everyone benefits from meat shields except the shield.
Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.
For starters, on Macragge where the Tyranids outmaneuvered Calgar. Or on Talsis Ultra where they blew up the imperial fleet with their own weapon. Or on Baal where they disabled the BA defenses from the inside.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.
Tyranids swarm, but they don't swarm blindly. They'll target specific focal points when swarming; will use specific tyranid breeds and weapons on specific opponents. They make extensive use of infiltration methods to infect planets long before the Swarm arrives. So that they can weaken and even destroy infrastructure and defensive installations to make their invasion all the easier.
That's why you take out the synapse creatures, because without them to relay control the "wild" gaunts and swarms will fall apart or at least lose their overall strategic masterplan commands. Making them far easier to pick off and tackle.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.
Tyranids didn’t lose. They enjoyed unlimited biomaterial from Ork. Tyranids bio ships still drinking endless of dead Ork & Dead Tyranids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.
For starters, on Macragge where the Tyranids outmaneuvered Calgar. Or on Talsis Ultra where they blew up the imperial fleet with their own weapon. Or on Baal where they disabled the BA defenses from the inside.
If you go on the galactic stage, Tyranids have gotten extremely dangerous following the Behemoth Hive Fleet defeat by attacking agriworld, rich in biomass and poor in defense in response to the Imperium fortifying its key Forge, Hive and Civilised Worlds against Tyranid assaults. The destruction of these planets causes supply issue for the Hive and Forge Worlds who are dependant on resources produced on agriworld. This is a clever strategic response and if left unchecked can cause heavily fortified planets to fall as the local population starves. This strategy has allowed several tendrils of Hive Fleet Kraken to regenerate themselves while destroying the capacity of the Imperium to maintain pressure on them and regenerate its own force. That's basically Sun Tsu favorite trick of "passive victory".
