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Whichever the GW writers feel should win.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, that god, who's on the side of the Necrons.

Really? The void dragon is still on the necrons side after they betrayed the c'tan and blew them up into shards?

Do you mind telling us where this is stated?

Some Necrons function as though they were being commanded by CTan.

They were never under the control of the c'tan in the newer lore, so that sounds a bit odd. Where is it mentioned?

It was off comments in the 5th and 7th codex, so it wasn't like it was big news, but a way to continue running Necrons as though the old fluff still existed somewhat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, that god, who's on the side of the Necrons.

Really? The void dragon is still on the necrons side after they betrayed the c'tan and blew them up into shards?

Do you mind telling us where this is stated?

Some Necrons function as though they were being commanded by CTan.

They were never under the control of the c'tan in the newer lore, so that sounds a bit odd. Where is it mentioned?

It was off comments in the 5th and 7th codex, so it wasn't like it was big news, but a way to continue running Necrons as though the old fluff still existed somewhat.

Can you provide a page number? I cant seem to find it.

I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.

I can only agree.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.

Honestly Necrons using the Webway isn't just lame, it's mind blowingly stupid. They have no credibility as a threat because of it. They exist because Ward needed them to regardless of logic.

pm713 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.

Honestly Necrons using the Webway isn't just lame, it's mind blowingly stupid. They have no credibility as a threat because of it. They exist because Ward needed them to regardless of logic.

They went a bit too far, yes. But the old lore about the necron navy being able to "cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye" really had to go.

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I do think the sentinence of lord-level Necrons was needed from a writing perspective and I am quite sure it would be retained through any lore changes. But the transition to C'tan being JUST shards was lame, Necrons needing to use the web way for FTL travel is lame, all IMO of course. I like the idea of the C'tan we on the tabletop being just shards to explain why they are so relatively tiny in power, but I do not see why they cannot be pieces that the C'tan break off themselves to simply be at more than one place at once. It would also be interesting lore wise to create a dynamic where some necrons remain slaves while others have broken free for one reason or another. They could even have different sub-faction rules.

Honestly Necrons using the Webway isn't just lame, it's mind blowingly stupid. They have no credibility as a threat because of it. They exist because Ward needed them to regardless of logic.

They went a bit too far, yes. But the old lore about the necron navy being able to "cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye" really had to go.

Between the 2 I'd take the oldcron lore.

Crossing the galaxy "in the blink of an eye" and other physics-breaking traits are definitely thins to love about oldcrons.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Crossing the galaxy "in the blink of an eye" and other physics-breaking traits are definitely thins to love about oldcrons.

They actually have more physics-breaking traits now, than they had in 3rd edition.

There is no easy formula, it depends on the situation which determines what forces each side can deploy and which are their victory conditions.

Necrons are far individually superior, which translate to a tactical superiority that allows them to kill many times their number in Tyranids. But Tyranids will almost always hold the strategic advantages, of which the most notable one is numbers, but also usually having the intrinsic initiative of the attacker. Tyranids are more likely to attack Necrons than vice-versa, because the Necrons have to defend their worlds while the Tyranids don't have that concern.

Tyran wrote:
Necrons are far individually superior, which translate to a tactical superiority that allows them to kill many times their number in Tyranids.

I don't think that's exactly true. Most Necrons aren't sentient. They are machines with very limited autonomy. It's the case for Necron Warriors who are not much else than automatons with very little of no will of their own. Immortals are combat drones with little iniative, but excellent programming and only then do you enter the realm of real sentient being capable of innovation, adaptation, emotion and true will. This mirror fairly well the mode of organisation of the Tyranids which follow a similar pattern of drones to commanders capable of innovation and improvisation. Tyranids strategical abilities vary in function of the resistance they face and the resources they have at their disposal. Expect a Hive Tyrant with limited resources and a powerful enemy to defeat to be exceptionnaly shrew, using its superhuman intellect and treasure trove of knowledge to achieve victory. The same Hive Tyrant with enormous resources at his disposal will use much simpler tactics as it will yield in the end the same results. Tyranids have been shown to be capable of outsmarting even the most strategically astute membes of the other races (though the opposite has also been shown to be true too).

epronovost wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Necrons are far individually superior, which translate to a tactical superiority that allows them to kill many times their number in Tyranids.

I don't think that's exactly true. Most Necrons aren't sentient. They are machines with very limited autonomy. It's the case for Necron Warriors who are not much else than automatons with very little of no will of their own. Immortals are combat drones with little iniative, but excellent programming and only then do you enter the realm of real sentient being capable of innovation, adaptation, emotion and true will. This mirror fairly well the mode of organisation of the Tyranids which follow a similar pattern of drones to commanders capable of innovation and improvisation. Tyranids strategical abilities vary in function of the resistance they face and the resources they have at their disposal. Expect a Hive Tyrant with limited resources and a powerful enemy to defeat to be exceptionnaly shrew, using its superhuman intellect and treasure trove of knowledge to achieve victory. The same Hive Tyrant with enormous resources at his disposal will use much simpler tactics as it will yield in the end the same results. Tyranids have been shown to be capable of outsmarting even the most strategically astute membes of the other races (though the opposite has also been shown to be true too).

With tactical superiority I refer to resources they can bring at the tactical level. Teleportation, phase technology, Cryptek technomagic, gauss and particle weaponry. I don't really refer to tactic themselves, but the resources to implement those tactics.

Tyran wrote:
With tactical superiority I refer to resources they can bring at the tactical level. Teleportation, phase technology, Cryptek technomagic, gauss and particle weaponry. I don't really refer to tactic themselves, but the resources to implement those tactics.

I would tend to agree that in a strict Necron vs Tyranids engagement, the Necron have far more tactical tools and resources. Tyranids most interesting tactical tools are poisonnous spores, toxic gas, venom and mind controled cultists are of basically very little to no use against Necrons.

epronovost wrote:

Tyran wrote:
With tactical superiority I refer to resources they can bring at the tactical level. Teleportation, phase technology, Cryptek technomagic, gauss and particle weaponry. I don't really refer to tactic themselves, but the resources to implement those tactics.

I would tend to agree that in a strict Necron vs Tyranids engagement, the Necron have far more tactical tools and resources. Tyranids most interesting tactical tools are poisonnous spores, toxic gas, venom and mind controled cultists are of basically very little to no use against Necrons.

Some of those are very useful against Tyranids. Toxic gases can work, you could develop spores that somehow try and block Necron firepower and at the end of the day, when they're shooting the crazy cultist they aren't shooting you. Everyone benefits from meat shields except the shield.

Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.

For starters, on Macragge where the Tyranids outmaneuvered Calgar. Or on Talsis Ultra where they blew up the imperial fleet with their own weapon. Or on Baal where they disabled the BA defenses from the inside.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.

Tyranids swarm, but they don't swarm blindly. They'll target specific focal points when swarming; will use specific tyranid breeds and weapons on specific opponents. They make extensive use of infiltration methods to infect planets long before the Swarm arrives. So that they can weaken and even destroy infrastructure and defensive installations to make their invasion all the easier.


That's why you take out the synapse creatures, because without them to relay control the "wild" gaunts and swarms will fall apart or at least lose their overall strategic masterplan commands. Making them far easier to pick off and tackle.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.

Both of those statements are absolutely wrong.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.

Tyranids didn’t lose. They enjoyed unlimited biomaterial from Ork. Tyranids bio ships still drinking endless of dead Ork & Dead Tyranids.

Tyran wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tyranids have shown great stratagy? Are you joking? Where? When? They Swarm, that's their whole gimmick, It's a slightly less rediculous Guard mentality. Choke them in our blood. They almost lost to Orks, who have no strategy whatsoever.

For starters, on Macragge where the Tyranids outmaneuvered Calgar. Or on Talsis Ultra where they blew up the imperial fleet with their own weapon. Or on Baal where they disabled the BA defenses from the inside.

If you go on the galactic stage, Tyranids have gotten extremely dangerous following the Behemoth Hive Fleet defeat by attacking agriworld, rich in biomass and poor in defense in response to the Imperium fortifying its key Forge, Hive and Civilised Worlds against Tyranid assaults. The destruction of these planets causes supply issue for the Hive and Forge Worlds who are dependant on resources produced on agriworld. This is a clever strategic response and if left unchecked can cause heavily fortified planets to fall as the local population starves. This strategy has allowed several tendrils of Hive Fleet Kraken to regenerate themselves while destroying the capacity of the Imperium to maintain pressure on them and regenerate its own force. That's basically Sun Tsu favorite trick of "passive victory".

The Tyranids are basically unstoppable without some sort of Deus Ex machina that defeats them.